Comments on: The Browning of the Wallabies http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/ The Roar is a sports opinion website. We tackle sports opinion rather than simply sports news. And we embed user-generated content — in the form of articles and comments — into the fabric of the site. Featuring some of the best sports writers in Australia — including the Sydney Morning Herald's Spiro Zavos — The Roar aims to be the leading sports website in Australia. Tue, 06 Jan 2009 07:44:07 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.5 By: merrill http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/#comment-8101 merrill Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:38:56 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/#comment-8101 I agree with you spiro, he alot of people did'nt know that he got treated pretty bad this year at the force. But at least he's gotten publicicty from them last year. he'll go really well in queensland, despite they're position in the super 14. just hope he can get enough ball. sometimes wing can be a lonely place. especially in union. I agree with you spiro, he alot of people did’nt know that he got treated pretty bad this year at the force. But at least he’s gotten publicicty from them last year. he’ll go really well in queensland, despite they’re position in the super 14.
just hope he can get enough ball. sometimes wing can be a lonely place. especially in union.

]]> By: Blair Kavanagh http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/#comment-6712 Blair Kavanagh Sat, 02 Jun 2007 16:48:22 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/#comment-6712 Drive past any schoolboy rugby game being played in Western Sydney and you'll see Polynesians galore. Young Australian Polynesians, who already have a history of Polynesian heroes in the the green and gold of the Wallabies. The only thing threatening a tremendous future for Island and Maori talent in Australian rugby union is that other oval ball code, the one where they only have 13 on the field at any one time. Driving past any schoolboy rugby league game in Western Sydney you'll see more Polynesian kids playing that than you would with rugby union. Blair Drive past any schoolboy rugby game being played in Western Sydney and you’ll see Polynesians galore.

Young Australian Polynesians, who already have a history of Polynesian heroes in the the green and gold of the Wallabies.

The only thing threatening a tremendous future for Island and Maori talent in Australian rugby union is that other oval ball code, the one where they only have 13 on the field at any one time.

Driving past any schoolboy rugby league game in Western Sydney you’ll see more Polynesian kids playing that than you would with rugby union.

Blair

]]> By: spiro zavos http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/#comment-6602 spiro zavos Fri, 01 Jun 2007 23:18:01 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/#comment-6602 Some years ago the NZ Rugby Almanac, an authoritative collection of facts and statistics pointed out that 16 players born in India had gone on to play rugby for England. This matched the 16 players born in the Pacific Islands who had played rugby for New Zealand. The great bulk of players with an Islander background who have played for the All Blacks were, like Bryan Williams (1970s All Black) and Michael jones (1980s), born in New Zealand. The Manu Samoan team that played in the 2003 World Cup tournament had more NZ-born players in it than Samoa-born players. NZ, in fact, in the form of NZ-born players, contributed around 60 players to the 2003 World Cup tournament. Those players of a Samoan background who are going to follow Digby Ioane into the Wallabies will be born in Australia, and they will aspire to be Wallabies from their earliest rugby days. Some years ago the NZ Rugby Almanac, an authoritative collection of facts and statistics pointed out that 16 players born in India had gone on to play rugby for England. This matched the 16 players born in the Pacific Islands who had played rugby for New Zealand. The great bulk of players with an Islander background who have played for the All Blacks were, like Bryan Williams (1970s All Black) and Michael jones (1980s), born in New Zealand. The Manu Samoan team that played in the 2003 World Cup tournament had more NZ-born players in it than Samoa-born players. NZ, in fact, in the form of NZ-born players, contributed around 60 players to the 2003 World Cup tournament.
Those players of a Samoan background who are going to follow Digby Ioane into the Wallabies will be born in Australia, and they will aspire to be Wallabies from their earliest rugby days.

]]> By: WLN http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/#comment-6481 WLN Fri, 01 Jun 2007 10:57:34 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/#comment-6481 Spiro I agree body type and temperament do create potential but simplistic generalisations won't help Wallaby rugby and at worse strengthen the kind of stereotypical beliefs that a) made it so hard for players like Mark Ella and b) certainly will not encourage and nurture more Island talent. Yes, there’ll probably be more like Ioane. And if Ioane really is any good maybe there is a chance he might be the Wallaby “BeeGee” for future Samoan–Australians. But Samoans aren’t singing in any Qantas ads soon and the pull to the Green’n’Gold just isn’t as strong as it might be for the other Islanders. They can still make a lot of money in Europe whilst wearing a Manu jumper and NZ has a historical connection with Samoa that Australia doesn’t have. That’s partly why the Blue and the Black mean so much to Samoans. The original point was that the “people from the sun” are different. Actually the Samoans, Tongans and Fijians are already here, but thank god the NBL isnt strong anymore because the where the Island kids were in the 80s and 90s. Nowadays the island kids in Western Sydney are playing league and if the ARU wants to keep on spending huge amounts on Lote, Timana, Clinton etc that’s where they’ll stay. (Conversely, perversely, as they say). Roger, The RWC used to actually be country of origin format but then Samoa got to the quarters and the IRB went hold-up, we can't have Samoa beating the home nations, so they changed the rules with the full support of unions like NZ because the NZRFU knew they would be able to keep the best Island players for themselves. Kerry Packer was no philanthropist by trade if I recall - he made a mozza out of cricket and I can hardly believe he would be an angel of mercy for PI rugby. There’s just no TV money to be made from them so yes, it is a dream and forever it will remain so. You don’t need to be Islander to play rugby with passion, joy and spontaneity. The French used to play Champagne rugby and the Baabaas used to have not a single player of Island background and they could manage it… Spiro
I agree body type and temperament do create potential but simplistic generalisations won’t help Wallaby rugby and at worse strengthen the kind of stereotypical beliefs that a) made it so hard for players like Mark Ella and b) certainly will not encourage and nurture more Island talent.
Yes, there’ll probably be more like Ioane. And if Ioane really is any good maybe there is a chance he might be the Wallaby “BeeGee” for future Samoan–Australians. But Samoans aren’t singing in any Qantas ads soon and the pull to the Green’n’Gold just isn’t as strong as it might be for the other Islanders. They can still make a lot of money in Europe whilst wearing a Manu jumper and NZ has a historical connection with Samoa that Australia doesn’t have. That’s partly why the Blue and the Black mean so much to Samoans. The original point was that the “people from the sun” are different.
Actually the Samoans, Tongans and Fijians are already here, but thank god the NBL isnt strong anymore because the where the Island kids were in the 80s and 90s. Nowadays the island kids in Western Sydney are playing league and if the ARU wants to keep on spending huge amounts on Lote, Timana, Clinton etc that’s where they’ll stay. (Conversely, perversely, as they say).
Roger,
The RWC used to actually be country of origin format but then Samoa got to the quarters and the IRB went hold-up, we can’t have Samoa beating the home nations, so they changed the rules with the full support of unions like NZ because the NZRFU knew they would be able to keep the best Island players for themselves. Kerry Packer was no philanthropist by trade if I recall - he made a mozza out of cricket and I can hardly believe he would be an angel of mercy for PI rugby. There’s just no TV money to be made from them so yes, it is a dream and forever it will remain so.
You don’t need to be Islander to play rugby with passion, joy and spontaneity. The French used to play Champagne rugby and the Baabaas used to have not a single player of Island background and they could manage it…

]]> By: Roger http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/#comment-6466 Roger Fri, 01 Jun 2007 08:36:44 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/#comment-6466 Hi WLN person, My frustration is the lack of money and support given these nations to help with their game . OK, it aint gonna happen . I'm a romantic. But if you read the hundreds of postings about Aussie rugby ,there is one common denominator; Australian rugby supporters want to see the game played with the unbridled passion, intensity and fun, yeah fun remember that, as shown by Fijians, Samoans, Tongans and Maoris.. Australia is desparate for spontanaiety . They want to at least see players enjoy the game. Australia is a relatively wealthy nation. If Kerry Packer was involved ,he would look at underwriting rugby in these Pacific nations and then include them in a competiton .Just imagine having Tonga, Fiji, Samoa all in the Super competiton. Ok its a dream. But Australia and New Zealand both want to 'own' the cream of the talent from these Pacific nations . Hi WLN person,
My frustration is the lack of money and support given these nations
to help with their game . OK, it aint gonna happen . I’m a romantic.
But if you read the hundreds of postings about Aussie rugby ,there is
one common denominator; Australian rugby supporters want to see
the game played with the unbridled passion, intensity and fun, yeah fun
remember that, as shown by Fijians, Samoans, Tongans and Maoris..
Australia is desparate for spontanaiety . They want to at least see players
enjoy the game. Australia is a relatively wealthy nation. If Kerry Packer
was involved ,he would look at underwriting rugby in these Pacific nations
and then include them in a competiton .Just imagine having Tonga, Fiji,
Samoa all in the Super competiton. Ok its a dream. But Australia and
New Zealand both want to ‘own’ the cream of the talent from these
Pacific nations .

]]> By: spiro zavos http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/#comment-6456 spiro zavos Fri, 01 Jun 2007 06:54:38 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/#comment-6456 The point about players of a Samoan background playing in years to come for the Wallabies is that this will happen when Samoans begin to settle in Australia, as they have in NZ. Of course the NZ-Samoans aspire to be All Blacks. But Australian-Samoans like Digby Ioane will aspire to be Wallabies. The trend is nicely encapsulated in his own family, with his father who lived in NZ being a mad-keen All Blacks supporter. There is actually a genetic reason why players of Samoan background make better rugby players than, say, players with a Sri Lankan background. When this equation is put as starkly as this, it becomes obvious. The body shape of Samoans (in general), the chunky build, the big thighs, and quick muscle reflexes are a rugby body shape. Just, as the Black-American body type (in general) with the long leg muscles is a great body type for sprinting. When the body type is matched with (again in general) temperament that relishes the physical contest, you have the potential for 'a better rugby player.' I would make one other point. Mark Ella, of blessed memory, my faovurite player, told a n audience at the launching of a book about great Aboriginal (and often neglected) athletes that he resented being called a 'natural.' There were, he said, hours and hours and hours spent on the practice field to create the 'sponaneous' Ella magic with his two brothers. Body type and temperament only create potential. The hard work and the intelligence of the player then comes into the reckoning on whether he is going to make the top level of a particular sport. The point about players of a Samoan background playing in years to come for the Wallabies is that this will happen when Samoans begin to settle in Australia, as they have in NZ. Of course the NZ-Samoans aspire to be All Blacks. But Australian-Samoans like Digby Ioane will aspire to be Wallabies. The trend is nicely encapsulated in his own family, with his father who lived in NZ being a mad-keen All Blacks supporter.
There is actually a genetic reason why players of Samoan background make better rugby players than, say, players with a Sri Lankan background. When this equation is put as starkly as this, it becomes obvious. The body shape of Samoans (in general), the chunky build, the big thighs, and quick muscle reflexes are a rugby body shape. Just, as the Black-American body type (in general) with the long leg muscles is a great body type for sprinting. When the body type is matched with (again in general) temperament that relishes the physical contest, you have the potential for ‘a better rugby player.’
I would make one other point. Mark Ella, of blessed memory, my faovurite player, told a n audience at the launching of a book about great Aboriginal (and often neglected) athletes that he resented being called a ‘natural.’ There were, he said, hours and hours and hours spent on the practice field to create the ’sponaneous’ Ella magic with his two brothers.
Body type and temperament only create potential. The hard work and the intelligence of the player then comes into the reckoning on whether he is going to make the top level of a particular sport.

]]> By: WLN http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/#comment-6452 WLN Fri, 01 Jun 2007 06:23:13 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/#comment-6452 First up a lesson for our readers out there. We’ve all learnt by now there’s a difference between Koreans, Japanese, and Chinese, right? You don’t have to finish Y12 to know this, you just have to be able to read takeaway menus. So get this sportsfans, Samoans are NOT the same as Tongans, Fijians and Maoris. The “Browning of the Wallabies”? Heck they’re already brown if you remember the Ellas, Walkers, and look to the future with Kurtley or Quade. The lack of Samoans in green and gold owes much to the homogeneous nature of Australian society and the fact that the Wallabies jumper carries little currency there. Apart from Australia’s indigenous own, any more “browning” is likely to come from Maori, Tongans and Fijians. The Maori tunnelling construction crews at work in Australia are world renowned and revered even by the Italians. Their kids don’t understand Waitangi tribunal resentment and they aren’t conned into believing they don’t have the brains to play flyhalf or don’t have brains full stop. Ask Morgan. (And back in NZ, the fools still blame Carlos Spencer for RWC2003) Tongans have a great tradition with Wallaby representation, the Tongans actually beat them back in 73 and there is a history of Australian rectors in Tonga, notably at Tupou College, and the schools competition is the only valid domestic competition there. Fijians have a strong tradition with Australian Armed Forces and are the security guards of the world, plus they like it that Queensland has similar weather to their home unlike NZ. Also they are proud that one of their own is the highest paid player in the land even if he can only score a try once a year. As for Samoans, don’t hold out for the floodgates to open. As I said before, they don’t rate a Wallabies jersey. They are acutely aware that the ultimate jersey in world rugby is Black just like the ones worn by Brian Williams, Vaiga Tuigamala and Michael Jones. Most Samoans kids growing up playing the game want a Black Jersey and if they don’t get that they’ll settle for the blue jersey of the Manu. Ask Digby’s dad which team he supports. Also, Wallaby rugby fans should keep their eyes on a Samoan called Tim Cahill. If football gains more traction in this country more Samoans will express their “warrior element” with a round ball than an oval one. And as for this “warrior element” Spiro I thought you were a better journo than that. There’s no genetic reason why Samoans are better rugby players, Kenyans are better runners, Austrians are better skiers or Brazilians are better shavers, I mean, footballers. Readers, here’s what really makes elite athletes: Playing freely as a child, growing up with the game and practice, practice practice. Think of the Don hitting a golf ball with a stump..... First up a lesson for our readers out there. We’ve all learnt by now there’s a difference between Koreans, Japanese, and Chinese, right? You don’t have to finish Y12 to know this, you just have to be able to read takeaway menus. So get this sportsfans, Samoans are NOT the same as Tongans, Fijians and Maoris.
The “Browning of the Wallabies”? Heck they’re already brown if you remember the Ellas, Walkers, and look to the future with Kurtley or Quade.
The lack of Samoans in green and gold owes much to the homogeneous nature of Australian society and the fact that the Wallabies jumper carries little currency there.
Apart from Australia’s indigenous own, any more “browning” is likely to come from Maori, Tongans and Fijians.
The Maori tunnelling construction crews at work in Australia are world renowned and revered even by the Italians. Their kids don’t understand Waitangi tribunal resentment and they aren’t conned into believing they don’t have the brains to play flyhalf or don’t have brains full stop. Ask Morgan. (And back in NZ, the fools still blame Carlos Spencer for RWC2003)
Tongans have a great tradition with Wallaby representation, the Tongans actually beat them back in 73 and there is a history of Australian rectors in Tonga, notably at Tupou College, and the schools competition is the only valid domestic competition there.
Fijians have a strong tradition with Australian Armed Forces and are the security guards of the world, plus they like it that Queensland has similar weather to their home unlike NZ. Also they are proud that one of their own is the highest paid player in the land even if he can only score a try once a year.
As for Samoans, don’t hold out for the floodgates to open. As I said before, they don’t rate a Wallabies jersey. They are acutely aware that the ultimate jersey in world rugby is Black just like the ones worn by Brian Williams, Vaiga Tuigamala and Michael Jones. Most Samoans kids growing up playing the game want a Black Jersey and if they don’t get that they’ll settle for the blue jersey of the Manu. Ask Digby’s dad which team he supports.
Also, Wallaby rugby fans should keep their eyes on a Samoan called Tim Cahill. If football gains more traction in this country more Samoans will express their “warrior element” with a round ball than an oval one.
And as for this “warrior element” Spiro I thought you were a better journo than that. There’s no genetic reason why Samoans are better rugby players, Kenyans are better runners, Austrians are better skiers or Brazilians are better shavers, I mean, footballers.
Readers, here’s what really makes elite athletes: Playing freely as a child, growing up with the game and practice, practice practice.
Think of the Don hitting a golf ball with a stump…..

]]> By: jimma http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/#comment-6422 jimma Fri, 01 Jun 2007 02:39:50 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/#comment-6422 I forgot Tawake, and that would be 7 (close to half) Add in the Faiinga brothers, Cooper?, Salvi?, Helengahu, McIsaac, the younger reds winger. Just need some more number 8's I forgot Tawake, and that would be 7 (close to half)

Add in the Faiinga brothers, Cooper?, Salvi?, Helengahu, McIsaac, the younger reds winger.

Just need some more number 8’s

]]> By: Roger http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/#comment-6421 Roger Fri, 01 Jun 2007 02:35:44 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/#comment-6421 Perhaps the RWC should reflect a Country of Origin format ( players parents). Or maybe every two years hold a Country of Origin World Cup. A really fantastic opportunity re Spiros 'Browning' predection; the Wallabies might then at last dispose of that dreadfull dirge, Waltzing Matilda ,and give us an Australian haka ,or something emotional to stir the Nations blood.. 'Once a jolly swagman camped by ...............................', hardly a call to arms is it Perhaps the RWC should reflect a Country of Origin format ( players parents).

Or maybe every two years hold a Country of Origin World Cup.

A really fantastic opportunity re Spiros ‘Browning’ predection; the Wallabies
might then at last dispose of that dreadfull dirge, Waltzing Matilda ,and give
us an Australian haka ,or something emotional to stir the Nations blood..

‘Once a jolly swagman camped by ………………………….’, hardly a call to arms is it

]]> By: Farmer http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/#comment-6414 Farmer Fri, 01 Jun 2007 01:47:25 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/#comment-6414 What a nice turn of phrase " an aptitude for collision rugby". I would agree - they seem to have a natural advantage that suits the current way the game is played. Players are getting bigger and stronger - probably 10 - 15 kgs heavier than their 1980's counterparts., and strong confrontational attack and defence is the go. All the more reason to continue to invest in Western Sydney rugby where many of the Islander origin players are living. I remember seeing a recent contribution from the Penrith coach lamenting the untapped talent in western Sydney. Surely we can invest $450K more wisely in western Sydney to develop the next generation rather than spending it on trying to lure Craig Wing over to Union. As highlighted on Inside Rugby last night, he is on the small side, he is 28 and is he really going to be a key player for the Wallabies post RWC when by then he will be 29.? Why didn't NSW keep Josh Holmes for much less money? For Wing it is a great opportunity to get good cash, try something new (or old given he played a bit of rugby about 10 years ago) and slip into the superannuation early rather than running around for a poorly performing Roosters outfit. $450K buys a lot of development resources - we might as well invest in something that will give ongoing, long term payoff rather than a 12 - 18 mth cameo performance from a player that has played his best football a few years ago. What a nice turn of phrase ” an aptitude for collision rugby”.

I would agree - they seem to have a natural advantage that suits the current way the game is played. Players are getting bigger and stronger - probably 10 - 15 kgs heavier than their 1980’s counterparts., and strong confrontational attack and defence is the go.

All the more reason to continue to invest in Western Sydney rugby where many of the Islander origin players are living. I remember seeing a recent contribution from the Penrith coach lamenting the untapped talent in western Sydney.

Surely we can invest $450K more wisely in western Sydney to develop the next generation rather than spending it on trying to lure Craig Wing over to Union. As highlighted on Inside Rugby last night, he is on the small side, he is 28 and is he really going to be a key player for the Wallabies post RWC when by then he will be 29.?

Why didn’t NSW keep Josh Holmes for much less money?

For Wing it is a great opportunity to get good cash, try something new (or old given he played a bit of rugby about 10 years ago) and slip into the superannuation early rather than running around for a poorly performing Roosters outfit.

$450K buys a lot of development resources - we might as well invest in something that will give ongoing, long term payoff rather than a 12 - 18 mth cameo performance from a player that has played his best football a few years ago.

]]> By: Mike http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/#comment-6405 Mike Fri, 01 Jun 2007 00:58:31 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/#comment-6405 Hmmm, and I wonder if they will be home grown or drafted in?? Go Diggers! Hmmm, and I wonder if they will be home grown or drafted in??

Go Diggers!

]]> By: sheek http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/#comment-6403 sheek Fri, 01 Jun 2007 00:48:39 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/#comment-6403 Spiro, That's a brave prediction. I remember the SMH (or was it The Australian?) running a part-serious, part-humourous article back in 1988, at the time of the Bi-Centenntial celebrations. It had a sketch of 12 Cricketers, 20 years into the future. It was full of Abduls, Changs, Singhs, names ending in 'ski' & 'vitch', & so forth. Basically a Socceroos team transformed to Cricket. From memory, only 3-4 had anglicised names. It hasn't happened. I don't doubt that a significant porportion of Polynesians (say 30-40%) in the Wallaby team is here to stay. But I remain to be convinced they will represent a majority by 2015. Still, I've been w-w-w-w-wr..........not right before! Spiro,

That’s a brave prediction. I remember the SMH (or was it The Australian?) running a part-serious, part-humourous article back in 1988, at the time of the Bi-Centenntial celebrations.

It had a sketch of 12 Cricketers, 20 years into the future. It was full of Abduls, Changs, Singhs, names ending in ’ski’ & ‘vitch’, & so forth. Basically a Socceroos team transformed to Cricket. From memory, only 3-4 had anglicised names.

It hasn’t happened. I don’t doubt that a significant porportion of Polynesians (say 30-40%) in the Wallaby team is here to stay. But I remain to be convinced they will represent a majority by 2015.

Still, I’ve been w-w-w-w-wr……….not right before!

]]> By: jimma http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/#comment-6402 jimma Fri, 01 Jun 2007 00:46:24 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/2007/06/01/the-browning-of-the-wallabies/#comment-6402 Add Lote in and there is 5? Possibly Polota-Nau and there is 6? I think Digby may struggle to make the side when LT and Shepherd (if fit) are back. Unless of course he scores 4 tries. I think Australia A are in for a rude awakening when they play Samoa. I saw the Jnr AB's game against them and it was a brutal war of attrition. I concur Spiro, Go you good thing! Add Lote in and there is 5? Possibly Polota-Nau and there is 6?

I think Digby may struggle to make the side when LT and Shepherd (if fit) are back. Unless of course he scores 4 tries.

I think Australia A are in for a rude awakening when they play Samoa. I saw the Jnr AB’s game against them and it was a brutal war of attrition.

I concur Spiro, Go you good thing!

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