By Andrew Logan
October 8th 2007 @ 5:48am
Loading ...Look to the next generation…
After the gut wrenching quarter final loss to a deserving and dominant England side, there are some hard questions to be answered by the Australian rugby hierarchy over the next two years.
Make no mistake, this loss is a disaster for not only the Wallabies, but Australian rugby generally. Had the Wallabies made the final, or even the semis, the interest boost for the code in Australia might have been enough to breathe some life into it before next season.
As it is, the only way forward for Australia is to clear the decks and start again, putting its trust in the talented youth of the game and sending a message that the opportunities will be there for those who show they deserve them, regardless of age or perceived pedigree.
Over the next four years, the players who should be picked to resurrect Australian rugby are:
Cameron Shepherd - showed during this years S14 that with some quality ball and good coaching, he can dominate a game from the back. Hits the line beautifully in attack and can kick well in general play - a quality that will be sorely missed when the sublime Chris Latham heads for greener pastures.
Drew Mitchell - led the tournament try scoring at RWC 07, and showed that he has overcome his tendency to turn over ball at crucial times. His break against England showed how dangerous he is with space, and also how little cut through Australia had for the rest of the evening - Mortlock excepted. Lachie Turner also fits the bill here, but may be a shade light to be consistently effective at Test level.
Adam Ashley-Cooper - Lacked opportunities against England but has shown that his pace and strength will develop with time, and if allowed to settle into a position, he will be an experienced and dangerous campaigner for the Wallabies by 2011.
Berrick Barnes - was shut down behind a soundly beaten pack against England, but showed that he is capable of some deft touches and deserves to be persevered with. Will develop into a quality playmaker with another 5 or 6 Tests under his belt.
Kurtley Beale - it’s not hard to tip Beale as a star of tomorrow, particularly after his flashy S14, and domination of the ARC. The upside of a Beale is his ability to score tries in a poorly performing side, as he showed for the Waratahs this year. One wonders what he might have pulled out against England. The question mark is over his ability to strategically direct a side around the park and create chances for others, rather than one out. Prefer Barnes next year, but after that it’s a line ball.
Quade Cooper - I mention him here to stop people asking “What about Quade Cooper?”, but his temperament appears brittle so far and he is easily rattled. This may be more a reflection on the Reds side than Cooper himself, but he will need to show greater team control, and self control too, if he wants to be a Wallaby.
Josh Holmes - a player who has been embarrassingly traded away from the Waratahs when they desperately need him, and who has starred in the ARC. His biggest plus is his ability to turn average ball into threatening ball as he showed with the Waratahs in his few games this year. It is a quality which the great John Hipwell had in abundance. Since it doesn’t look like Australian packs are getting better any time soon, so we’ll need a half with this golden touch, as well as the ability to mix it with the big boys.
David Pocock - alas Smith and Waugh will have headed for Europe or retirement by 2011, but never fear. David Pocock has shown little regard for reputations in his 2007 S14, and his awesome strength and hyper-committed training ethic will see him in Wallaby gold by 2008 or 2009 at the latest. He is hard on the ball, physical in the tackle and backs down to no man - just what the Wallabies could have used at the breakdown in Marseille.
Ben McCalman - still a colt, McCalman was a regular standout for the Australian Schoolboys in 2005 and 2006 and was a member of the Australian U19 side in 2007. He is a tall, athletic and aggressive flanker who can also play 8, and who would be the ideal foil for Elsom/McMeniman and Pocock.
Al Kanaar - the forgotten man of Australian forward play since he injured a knee at the beginning of last year to compound his ankle injury from just a few months before. 2005 saw Kanaar play all levels and make his Test debut against the All Blacks at Eden Park and stamp himself as an aggressive, athletic lock of the future. Will be at his athletic and experience peak in 2011.
Benn Robinson - The front row is something of a desert, but Robinson made his debut in 2006 and with another solid S14 season or two under his belt may grow into a useful practitioner. As with all Australian props bar Rodney Blake, he is at least 5 kilos too light, and lacks the frame to carry that weight even if he can manufacture it in the gym. However, Dunning, Sheperdson and Baxter have all been shown up, so the door is open.
Rodney Blake - Blake will be 28 in 2011, a great age for a prop. He is a genuine, genetic 125-130kg which is very different from gym-manufactured weight. His fitness will always be a concern, but his ball skills a bonus. With some coaching from the likes of a Foley or Blades, and if he can remain injury free, might hold up a servicable scrum by 2011.
Tatafu Polota-Nau - still disappointingly ignored at the Waratahs in favour of Adam Freier, the explosive and brilliant handler Polota-Nau will undoubtedly be a Wallaby as soon as his set-piece measures up. At 113kg he is a good weight for a hooker, and can run like a back. Once his lineout throw is right, he is ready.
Assuming 2008 to be a year of blooding new players, and general transition, the Wallaby side I’d like to see picked in 2009 to work towards RWC 2011 would be:
1. Benn Robinson; 2. Tatafu Polota-Nau; 3. Rodney Blake; 4. Mark Chisolm; 5. Alex Kanaar; 6. Rocky Elsom (Hugh McMeniman); 7. David Pocock; 8. Ben McCalman; 9. Josh Holmes; 10. Berrick Barnes (Kurtley Beale); 11. Drew Mitchell; 12. Matt Giteau; 13. Adam Ashley-Cooper; 14. Lachlan Turner; 15. Cameron Shepherd.
The pack, as with all Australian packs of recent times, lacks truly awesome weight, which is a problem. Until we learn the England lesson - that big men who dominate up front win matches - we will always struggle to use our brilliant backs to best effect. Aside from this, the side has youth, athleticism and confidence.
As Franklin D Roosevelt once said “We have a powerful potential in our youth, and we must have the courage to change old ideas and practices so that we may direct their power toward good ends.”
Lets hope the new Wallaby management thinks the same.
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matta said | October 8th 2007 @ 6:23am | Report comment
mmmm some good points.
The truth is your theory is right but it would take the ARU giving the coach four years no matter the results. Unfortunatly in the modern game coaches are judged week by week - can you imagine the uproar is Smith (still only 28) was dropped for Pockock?
lets face it, surely there are some test careers over after saturday night?
outside the guys who retire surely Baxter, Dunning and Sharpe are gone? The sad thing is I actually think dunning is better than we all think he is but other teams exploit his percieved weakness and the refs buy it.
Baxter has just never been up to it.
Sharp went missing in a big game once again.
Andrew Logan said | October 8th 2007 @ 9:49am | Report comment
Matta, you’re dead right about some careers being on the line. Baxter and Dunning just do not have any chances left, it has been proven time and again that they are not international props. Sharpe must go too, he only plays one out of every 3 Tests, the other two he just suits up and swans about.
Vickerman has shown that he lacks the discipline required to remain focused in competitive games, and he was a liability, far too easily distracted by what England were doing and not focusing on his own job. Stephen Moore is pedestrian too - contrast his performances recently with say, Mealamu at his best, or Kearns at his peak. We must have a hooker who can have an impact around the park.
Wycliffe Palu occasionally has an impact, but I have consistently said that his workrate is too low for an international 8. The gaps between his big plays are just too long. Smith has been excellent again, but not as excellent as past years. He has reached his peak, and will soon decline a little - if you look at him closely he is much heavier than two years ago, and is slowing down. It is not unrealistic for him to be moved on in 2009. Elsom is one of the few to come out of this tournament with his reputation intact.
It is a moot point since George is moving on anyway, but the best halfbacks can make good ball out of average ball - witness Catchpole, Hipwell and Farr-Jones - all of whom played behind average Aussie packs and still managed to give their backs a platform. I think that next year we will see that we have given George too much latitude for the failings of his pack.
We’ll always have good backs and the backline looks healthy, but we need to make some hard decisions about the engine room. Sooner rather than later.
matta said | October 8th 2007 @ 9:53am | Report comment
yep, if you get to see that game again look for the images when Mitchell is on the break - whos is the background jogging at what can only be considered a nanna rate? Sharp
Blue said | October 8th 2007 @ 10:20am | Report comment
Whilst the future looks bright with some budding young stars in the making, I see a deep rooted problem all the way from club level to the top: the lack of good, hard, dominant tight forwards.
Against the Poms, Australia got beaten senseless not only in the scrums but at every breakdown. The chief destroyers for the Poms were Regan, Sheridan and Shaw. They hit every ruck situation like men posessed. In defense they messed up the ball for Gregan and gave a master class in counter rucking. In attack the Wallabies made little impression on the rucks, with people like Dunning hanging around the fringe if the ruck and evryone else jsut not turning up. Engerlund should have done way more with their ball from phase play and if they had some creativity the score would have been way more.
Back to my point. Sure there are loads of exciting backs and a few loosies that catch the eye but where are the hard bastards? I haven’t really seen them in any club games or the ARC, and I have been to a lot of those this season.
Robinson needs to add some bulk. He is too light, but a great prospect. The jury is still out on Blake. I am not convinced but he will have the opportunity next year and the absence of any other quality 3’s will see him get test caps.
In the past, the Wallabies had people like Harrison, Cannon and Darwin getting stuck in and doing the dirty work. There aren’t enough hard men in the current setup. Sharpe seagulls, Vickerman spits his dummy every time someone bumps into him and the front row, well, are still getting up from gettting smacked.
I agree that people like Kanaar look good, but he needs to bulk up. Certainly has the attitude and I’m a great fan.
An urgent focus on building up tight 5 resources needs to start now or we will not see progress, no matter how many flashy backs are uncovered.
Andrew Logan said | October 8th 2007 @ 10:44am | Report comment
Blue,
I couldn’t agree more. I was chatting to a mate this morning and we realised in the course of the conversation that it starts in the school system where the scrum has been depowered for some time. What this means is that the 95-105kg schoolboy props who can play around the park get the recognition and the rep jerseys, and are in the box seat thereafter. The naturally heavy kids don’t get the hard scrummaging to show their wares and don’t compete as well in the loose of course, so they are rarely selected.
This sets in train a situation where the academies are picked from Aus Schools, U19’s etc, and most of these kids have been scouted at school level, but they aren’t actually the ones we want! We really want the big, heavy kid from the 3rds who will mature into a natural 120kg, not a bloated, gym-induced 120 like Dunning who just can’t carry that sort of weight and use it effectively.
Alan Jones was controversial, but he was absolutely right in realising at the beginning of his tenure that the Wallabies needed big hard forwards to compete on the world stage, and he went out and found them, and picked them. McIntyre, Rodriguez, Lawton, Codey, Coker were all huge men who got a start during the Jones era, and it is no coincidence that Australian rugby was successful and gained respect during this time. Established players like McBain, Roche and even Waratahs hooker Eddie Jones were ignored because they were just too small, and rightly so.
Terry Kidd said | October 8th 2007 @ 10:59am | Report comment
Although I agree with a lot of what has been said above I can’t agree with Palu and Vickerman being left out. Palu has continued to develop this year and can hold his head up from last night. You have to remember that htis year he really only began to get consistent game time for the Waratahs. In 06 he was learning, in 07 he started to put it together and continually improved, in 08 he will be better again.
We have a world class line out and Vickerman is largely responsible for that. He also was nearly always at the bottom of the mauls on Saturday night cos he got out and tackled and worked his heart out. So he lost his cool, so what? Could it have been frustration that his lock partner was missing in action?
Does not AJ Whalley deserve a mention? He has done well in the ARC, am looking forward to see S14 form.
matta said | October 8th 2007 @ 11:00am | Report comment
mmm futher to that we have three other states playing a decent level of club rugby with very little help from the ARU. Most of the “Natural” big fellas in WA, SA and VIC miss out because the sport is not promoted enough.
I have had this convo a million times with people who say “if there were no AFL and NRL Australia would dominate rugby” while I agree we would more than likely be better off our current situation needs, as mentioned above by Andrew and Blue, genuine tight five players - these are born not made. Its also not just about the size and power but they need to have a natural agression!
My point is, we are still really drawing our talent pool from a handfull of schools in two states. Trust me I have played club rugby in SA and VIC - there are plenty of good props that never have or never will have anyone from the talent ID team look at them. Or furhter more there are plenty of kids not playing any sport in these states because they cant find a sport that caters for their bulk.
Scrum Importance said | October 8th 2007 @ 11:02am | Report comment
Over and Over again, we seem to blame the props for Australia’s woes. I think the stats showed from Sat games that 11 scrums were set - We didn’t lose a tight head, yet we are having a go at the Props. We lost the plot at the breakdown and the blame must falll on the back 3 and possibly back 5 - not sure how easy people think it is to get up off you knees after having 1000kgs of weight coming onto your legs from both directions to get up and run.
We didn’t lose a lineout either, so the jobs the props are paid to do was being done to the desired effect - locks and flankers need to be brought to account more often for mine and give the guys doing the hardest job a bit of recognition.
To claim Rodney Blacke as the saviour is sad - the Biggest South Africans do 10 times as much work around the field as big Rodney - he needs to do much more at the rucks and mauls and less in the middle of the field hoping for a Dunning moment before he is a serious contender.
As for the other suggestions - they all have merit.
GO Argentina
Andrew Logan said | October 8th 2007 @ 11:25am | Report comment
Terry K - a note on Dan Vickerman. I left him out of my ‘09 lineup because, aside from my opinion of his discipline issues, he says it is likely that he will go to Cambridge and study economics when his contract ends in ‘08. Cheers..
Reg said | October 8th 2007 @ 11:29am | Report comment
anyone heard anything about Quade Cooper going to the Storm? The Reds have apparently signed more than they are allowed and are cutting players and apparently Coops is off to the Storm???
Anyway, forwards. Forwards forwards forwards.
Dan Heenan. Al Kanaar. Tatafu Nau. Rodney Blake. James Horwill. Benn Robinson. Six that weren’t there this year that we can look to in the future.
Perhaps Benny Lucas may be a shot for the flyhalf spot.
In saying that, back in 2003, I never picked Berrick Barnes to be in our squad for 2007! Who knows who will be the young bolter in 2011.
matta said | October 8th 2007 @ 11:32am | Report comment
Scrum Imp - you cant deny that our scrum is weak. Also I have never said its all the props fault, infact I think most of it is that our Locks are soft… remember 2005 at Twickers? time after time when that scrum went down our locks remained on their feet showing just how much they are commited to the drive… not much at all
Dave said | October 8th 2007 @ 11:41am | Report comment
Big Benny Alexander performed admirably in the APC. Massive frame, natural bulk and aggression. Plus he’s good around the park and does what few front rowers do often… Score tries. Always a bonus.
The general concensus has been right on the money. The problem isnt just the lack of depth at national level but starts at the school boy level. As it was said earlier, the focus is for more ‘athletic’ props that can hold their own at scum time, but act like flankers for the rest of the game. Thats the problem, addressing the scrum like Eddie Jones has, as simply as another restart and not an area from which a team can dominate the game. Not only as a dominant platform for backs to undertake set-plays but also the HUGE psychological advantage gained by seeing your forward pack monster the opposition. We’ve all played in games against ’superior’ opposition where one great scrum and one great tackle/hit can give a side the confidence and momentum to win. Strong scrum wins provide the momentum all teams need to get onto of the opposition mentally (bar the 3 tightheads Eng made against SA)..
Sundo said | October 8th 2007 @ 12:50pm | Report comment
You’ve all left out the other developing players that the ARU will be looking for, Israel Folau, Greg Inglis, Jarred Hayne, Cooper Cronk, Gary Ablett Jr…..
Bourke said | October 8th 2007 @ 1:11pm | Report comment
Andrew and Blue
I completly agree with you, however Australian rugby is in a catch 22 position. The competition with soccer and AFL for player registrations is getting tougher and tougher ( I dont include League as lots of kids play both codes now.) the most common objection to Union is the fear of injury in scrums. So in consequence mini’s, juniors and school boys now have
depowered scrums to placate the Mums. While this helps get kids into the sport it serverly disadvantages the really big
units that we so desperatly need.
BTW everyone loves to bag Dunning however he’s the best we have!!!
Harry said | October 8th 2007 @ 1:29pm | Report comment
Good one Sundo although I think we should continue to target one Quailty league Back (Tahu alredy a good get, surely we can get one out of Inglis, Hayne, Folau etc) to supplement the excellent young backline talent coming through.
I have banged on about the props on another thread but agree with all this analysis cept you’ve left out Greg Holmes from the Reds, who looked OK in 06 before being injured most of this year, really returned to late to do any good for this RWC.
Just to repeat please please no more Baxter and Dunning in a Wallaby shirt.
Blue said | October 8th 2007 @ 1:40pm | Report comment
Bourke
Dunning may be, but then the best is jsut not good enough. This next season needs to uncover the next best 2 options at LH and TH and they need to be blooded. Dunning has given all he can offer, and come up short…
I wasnlt schooled in Australia so yours and other insights into what is happening in schools are insightful and make sense.
Harry
Agree, Holmes should not be forgotten.
Whilst Tahu could prove to be an awesome acquisition (pace, power and that pass in the semis), please no more leagues acquisitions. Surely there was enough on display in the ARC?
Scuub said | October 8th 2007 @ 2:18pm | Report comment
On the issue of good front row talent identification,
Carl Hayman, surely undoubtably the world’s premier Tighthead prop, was a school boy lock.
And Kevin Mealamu, played as a flanker throughout his school boy days. Both were considered too short for their preferred positions and were percieved to have brighter opportunities in the front row.
So even if the talent isn’t obvious, it’s still there. But it must surely be hard to spot good scrummagers when they’re not scrummaging?!
With the new ELV’s it is likely that the stock of players like Poluta-Nau will rise steeply, with less emphasis on set piece and more emphasis on ball running and breakdown work. So the next decent Aussie frontrow might currently be running around the schoolboy rugby fields with the numbers 6,7 and 8 on their back.
Andrew Logan said | October 8th 2007 @ 4:56pm | Report comment
Scuub makes a good point. Former Wallaby Richard Harry was a lower grade breakaway for Eastwood until he made the move to the front row. Current Waratah Academy and Sydney Uni first grade prop Jeremy Tilse was a second rower until two years ago. So they are out there, but maybe playing lower grades or another position.
This brings up the issue of coaching. If you do find these guys and convert them, you really need a Front Row Academy to do it effectively and en masse. Tilse has been under intense tutelage from former England RWC 03 prop Trevor Woodman at Uni and this has got him up to speed probably 12 months ahead of time. Woodman also managed to convert Jerry Yanuyanutawa from 2nd grade breakaway to a 1st grade premiership-winning prop for Syd Uni within 1 season this year, so the benefits of intense coaching are clear. It is simply a matter of whether the ARU sees fit to throw resources at 20 potential props, rather than just the few within the Wallabies and Aus A inner circle.
mudskipper said | October 8th 2007 @ 4:59pm | Report comment
I think Ben Alexander has signed with the Brumbies… I’m certain that’s what a commentator said during an ARC match…nice buy Brumbies…It must be Bill Young’s assistant coaching at the Rams got him onside…He will do very well in the Brumby rugby program teaming up with Saia Faingaa and Josh Holms boys….
Martin said | October 8th 2007 @ 5:40pm | Report comment
What is going to happen with the Aussie Management? Wales are looking outside the box towards the Aussie Bill Sweetnham the Swimming Coach as performance director. Any thoughts about whether you guys might want him first. Any thoughts on Scott Johnson or are you going for a complete clear out.
de Villiers said | October 8th 2007 @ 6:02pm | Report comment
Why does Lote play for the Wallabies?
Cause he won’t make the Fiji team.
sheek said | October 8th 2007 @ 6:19pm | Report comment
Here’s some stats I picked up re the Wallabies & England.
The combined pack weights were 913 kgs to 918 kgs. So the Wallabies conceded less than a kilogram per man to the English. Obviously, it’s not only a matter of size (weight & height), but also power (strength to weight).
About half of the English pack can bench press 200 kgs, with Sheridan pressing 220kgs. The best for the wallabies is Dunning, with 180 kgs. Strength endurance must also come into the equation.
The combined English pack wasn’t much bigger, but they were collectively older. However, what transpired is that they were physically stronger, & also able to maintain their strength for a longer time period.
I don’t necessarily believe it’s all doom & gloom for Australian Rugby, I would put forward the hypothesis that australian Rugby will move forward quicker & better than if the Wallabies had progressed.
I say this because some of the changes required were mostly only ever going to be forced by a calamity. Nothing like a disaster to concentrate the mind.
The other point is to learn from our mistakes, & take the necessary steps to ensure they don’t happen again. Well, at least for several generations, because it’s a truism that history repeats. Because future generations will forget.
Alternately, we don’t want to make the mistake of our kiwi cousins, who apparently have refused to acknowledge any problem since 1991, & therefore are condemned to repeating mistakes.
matta said | October 8th 2007 @ 6:19pm | Report comment
ha not bad…
actually you know the funniest thing to come out of the WC? The Fijian scrum half played U21s for Australia! I am pretty sure he was born in Fiji and moved here when very young, he saw he was not likely to get a shot with GG around so went to play for Fiji. In my book he has been the best number 9 of the WC … mmm bet who ever ignored him regrets it now?
de Villiers said | October 8th 2007 @ 6:43pm | Report comment
Agreed Matta - he has been good. The scrummies have impressed this WC - look at Ellisalde, Pichot, Fourie and the Fijian scrummie.
Pity GG didn’t retire at the peak of his powers - after the 2003 WC. His legacy would’ve been so much bigger than the caps record he holds.
Blue said | October 8th 2007 @ 6:44pm | Report comment
Sheek I would love to share your optimism.
Was the EOYT in 2005 not a disaster? And what did the Wallabies do in 2 years? Only put the same front row out to get snotted a second time. Where was the learning in that?
Your research is very interesting and points to one thing: tailored tight forward development programs. If this does not happen, we will keep on having this conversation. If positive steps are taken then I agree with you that it’s not doom and gloom but there will be a couple of years of pain. That process must start in all earnesty for 2011.
On the issue of converting players to FR forwards, let’s not get carried away. You cite some good exampels but they are exceptions. Look at the other good props around the WC and you will find that they were born into “propdom”.
The true impact of the ELV’s remain speculative until we see a season of S14. I just get itchy when people look towards the ELV’s to solve the tight 5 issues (not suggesting you are, but many others think that.)
brumby justin said | October 8th 2007 @ 8:31pm | Report comment
what started as a discussion about a range of good talent turned into a tight five analysis pretty quickly. Aside from thinking that our backs seem to get away with mediocre performances way too easily, I’d like to throw something else into the mix.
Until the ARU, Wallaby squad and entire rugby hierarchy in Australia are honest about their REAL position in world rugby - nothing will change (even with wholesale player changes).
Here are some examples:
Rupert Guiness - “Instead his thoughts were with his teammates, who had just seen their dreams shattered by the defending champions - courtesy of Johny Wilkinson, again”
Wrong Rupert - tell it how it is so they start hearing it - they had seen their dreams shattered by their own performance. JW just took advantage of what was handed to him on a platter from poor coaching and awful execution.
Stirling Mortlock - “I still feel disappointed with how we didn’t play well and didn’t show our true colours”.
Wrong Stirling - just for once please say “we were woeful and probably gave a clear indication of where we are as a rugby playing nation. Sure - we’ve had some great teams in the past but hopefully we can realistically look at our attitude, national set up and selection policies to really put a good team on the paddock in NZ”.
If everyone “takes positives from this” - from John O’Neil down then we’ll be in exactly the same position in four years time…
sheek said | October 8th 2007 @ 8:38pm | Report comment
Blue,
Regettably, Rome wasn’t built in a day. Yes, 2005 was a disaster & Eddie Jones was removed. And the Wallaby scrum has improved, if only marginally.
Now Gary Flowers has also gone, & John O’Neill will move things quickly from after the WC. You have to appreciate he had to maintain a holding pattern when he returned to the job, as certain things set in place couldn’t be changed before the WC.
My point is, disaster will change things quicker. The ARU is an ugly, political animal driven by vested interests, mainly along state & club lines. Under normal circumstances the ARU will bicker but not change dramatically. Disaster forces them to make the changes they might otherwise be unwilling to contemplate.
mick holden said | October 8th 2007 @ 9:57pm | Report comment
What a disaster.
I’m not going to go on too much as a lot has been said. But I have to vent a little frustration.
I feel quite betrayed right now by everyone involved with the Wallabies. In my naivety and heady wishfull thinking I actually believed all the talk that came out of the mouths of the wallabies and their bosses. Why I could not see what the rest of the world knew about our pack I will never know. You can only put up so many smoke screens before the big bad wind comes and blows it all away to reveal what the world already knew. The Wallabies. The great pretenders. I fear that so much smoke was blown up the players A-holes that they believed they were wonderful also. I feel betrayed.
What a disaster.
Joshua Carmody said | October 8th 2007 @ 10:29pm | Report comment
I agree with a number of the points here. I think that Vickerman let’s things go to his head because he doesn’t have another strong leader to work with. Eals had a few hard heads around to share the load. There’s something deeply unsatisfying in the way that Sharpe plays. Where’s the mongrel?
A lot of the forward problems began with Eddie Jones; let’s be honest. God knows what he was thinking in diminishishing the importance of the front row. What a disaster.
Brumby Justin is right to look at the backs. Gregan might run the show, but gee that show can be horrible. What pisses me most is that it was clear from the start what the English would do (run through the ruck), but we didn’t respond…is this a sign that the wallabies put theory before practice? That is, we can’t respond to what’s actually happening in reality, we try and superimpose our play on what is happening, and it’s ridiculous.
I’m not a massive league fan but they do play what’s in front of them. They do learn to adapt quickly. I hope that this is the culture we develop in Australian rugby; develop the next generation with an understanding of reality.Please no over-coaching.
Josh.
Terry Kidd said | October 9th 2007 @ 3:12am | Report comment
If we need to continue with big units in the game lets keep scrumming but take out the ‘hit’ …. lets have engage (front rows only), pack (back rows lock in, feed ( ball goes in and pushing begins) …. just a suggestion. Scrums have best chance of remaining stable and they are still a contest.
KF said | October 9th 2007 @ 10:48am | Report comment
Hi
Check out this artcle:
http://www.rugbyheaven.com.au/news/news/search-for-wallabies-in-volleyball-wrestling/2007/10/09/1191695836411.html
Why would we nurture our props and locks when we can get natural talent from shot put guys, volleyball players and wrestlers as (acording to Rupert Guiness) ARU intends to do? Off course, as an ex-prop - now I realise that is what I have been doing instead of scrummaging - I shoudl have been playing vollwyball, wrestling and doing athletics insetad!!
I agree that de-poweing the srum at the school and junior level is the major problem. As a parent of a 14 year old TH prop I also agree that there should be a certain level of safety measures applied in the junior games.
I did notice that lot of forwards are (as someone mentioned) mainly a rugby league style forwards, and as they can’t handle the pressure they try to pull the scrum down. I was astionished to see how much under 14s try to cheat in the scrum - and they appear to be trained that way. I have seen a big kid playing LH with his both feet off the ground trying to pull down a scrum.
Kind regards
KF
Reds Fan said | October 9th 2007 @ 11:51am | Report comment
One of Australia’s problems with scrums was evident at the National Under 16 Championships last week when a prop in one of the queensland teams packed down in his first scrum during the first game his team played. He is a back rower for his school team.
It is also highlighted in the schoolboy selections when they pick small mobile hookers who play like back rowers, last year was a prime example of this.
Australian rugby needs a scrum school. Maybe this is something that could be incorporated into the new development at Ballymore. Take 40 developing players from 16-24 and teach them how to pack scrums. Bring in experts from around the world to give them an education in dominating a scrum not just trying to get parity.
As for Scrum Importance’s coment that we didn’t loose a tight head, he is right. But we got penalised on our own feed on numourus occassions and when we won the ball the scrum was going backwards.
stillmissit said | October 9th 2007 @ 12:11pm | Report comment
The prop problem is not the schools or the coaches it’s the mums and the media. The mums are scared s-less to see there little angel in the front row where according to the media he will die in his first season.
I ref’d a school boys game a few weeks ago and pre-match we were talking about scrum time. One coach was very keen and the other was ambivalent about scrumming as they hadn’t had any contested scrums all year. In speaking to the other coach he had played contested scrums once that year. They went uncontested.
This is the real issue.
Regarding this fine well informed article the only thing we are missing is big locks. If Vickerman goes then I dont think Kannar is big enough to make a replacement for him. Imports for lock and front row are coming boys watch for players from Argentina and SA.
Bourke said | October 9th 2007 @ 5:20pm | Report comment
The additional problem of de powering the scrum in junior level is that “the big oxen” which in the older age groups
are desperate for, tend to drop out as they don’t feel any worth usually ending up in the 2nd 15 in preferance to lighter faster players.
I guess the real issue is lack of assistance from NSW rugby and the ARU in recruiting kids for the village clubs in junior levels, the more big oxen the more likley hood of contested scrums. At the moment most clubs are struggling for numbers and as such will bend to the will of Mums just to keep the numbers up. Being the registra and in charge of recruitment for my club I know first how disinterested the ARU are in offering any form of assistance at the grass roots level (and my sister works in the place) so I would have thought they might have been more willing. Unfortunatly the sucess of the Wallabies is directly related to registrations, so next year is going to be another tough one.
Cheers
Bourke
Cheats said | October 12th 2007 @ 5:54pm | Report comment
The ARU stuffed it the moment they sacked Eddie Jones, and now he must be laughing his head clean off, bring back Eddie I say - I hope the Springboks win, that should totally rub it into the ARU …anyway the Wallabies were a disgrace, Conolly and his clan DID NOTHING - they MUST ALL GO!
stillmissit said | October 14th 2007 @ 8:44am | Report comment
Cheats - you wouldnt be Eddie Jones would you?
I think you are a long way off the track with this one. It will certainly raise some comment. Losing 8 games in a row I believe was only the part of it.
Jones was a political animal who managed to put most of the players offside. He created havoc with his ideas that the game plan was everything and the statistics ruled. I heard that he carpeted a player for passing a ball inside for a try when the plan called for the pass to go outside to the wing who was covered. What grade B of a lunatic is this man, the total distruction of a great team left to him by McQueen, the complete atomic bomb effect he had on Queensland.
I could go on but I have disliked, to the point of hatred, this man who, I believe, single handedly destroyed Australian rugby in so many ways including not rebuilding between world cups.
Thank Christ he and Gregan are gone.
Stu said | October 14th 2007 @ 11:21am | Report comment
Stillmissit - i agree completely the only way we could have been a bigger dud at this world cup would have been having eddie ‘the mouth’ jones at our helm - the man was a wrecking ball and what he did to mcqueen’s legacy was criminal - the way he betrayed the queensland team after the bull routed them was illustratively of his character. Eddie’s crowing now - but jeez who cares - he’s just a bitter and twisted meglomaniac who hasn’t the shoulders to take responsibility for any team he coaches.
matty said | November 16th 2007 @ 8:02pm | Report comment
you might wanna change #9 from josh holmes to matt youman
It is more blessed to give… » The Roar - Your Sports Opinion said | June 16th 2008 @ 7:57am | Report comment
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