Where to from here? – how to restructure Australian rugby
By Gatesy, 19 Nov 2007 gatesy is a Roar Guru
It seems ludicrous to me that on one hand we are saying “where are all the big props going to come from?” while on the other hand virtually ignoring the potential for expansion of the game if we can’t get away from that private school thinking, and develop the clubs as regions in their own right.
Obviously this is difficult, depending on where you live. For example, in Canberra, where I live the schools and clubs play in the same competition and the schools dominate. While you could say that there should be fewer teams playing for the schools so that some of the kids could be released to play for the clubs it is a fact of life that kids want to play footy with their mates, and not against their own schools. At least, in Canberra, each of the Premier clubs now has its own junior talent Squads, made up of kids from that region, (even if not playing for that club), which then feeds into the Brumbies Talent organisation and ultimately the Academy.
It seems to me that you take a top down base to apex approach where the Premier Clubs in each city, are the key, feeding into the ARC and State structures, similar to what Cricket does. Just like Cricket, it should be every players aspiration to make first grade in his Premier Club, before he can expect to go on to higher honours. The idea of players playing for their State before they have even played in Colts, just seems silly to me, and we are narrowing the base too much and, in my view, devaluing the worth of the Clubs.
The structure should be the same in every state, whether we are talking NSW or Tasmania. The only thing that would differ would be the numbers in the structure.
It may be that the Subbies competitions in the large cities could be organised along regional Premier club lines, so that they act as feeders to the Premier Clubs and then have all of the eSchools in those same regions feeding in as well. More high schools should then be brought into the fold so that there is a dual development pathway with schools playing mid week and allowing a lot of those players to play for clubs on weekends. This would, of course, necessitate unprecedented co-operation between different organisations, and we all know how hard it is to dislodge people from their individual power bases. it would virtually mean that you would have to have amalgamation and then very strongly run District organisations, with the Premier Club as the apex of the organisation. All of those District organisations should then answer to their respective State organisation.
If the Schools want to play each other in their own competitions, that is fine, too, but not so as to exclude themselves from the main stream.
I would prefer to see the Schools organisations feeding also into State-based rep sides, so that you don’t necessarily have an elite pathway that excludes many potentially good players, at the Junior levels and which probably assists Rugby League to get its hands on good, talented young players, before they get anywhere near a Premier Club.
This whole exercise needs absolute leadership and dogmatism from the very top down if we are to push the game ahead on a national level. Players need to see pathways that are achievable.
While all of that is going on we should be working the ARC into the mix so that it is a wholly meaningful step beyond the Premier Club structure, and so that it becomes a recognisable brand for all Australian Rugby followers and I believe that possible the best way to achieve this is to take one team out of Sydney and base it elsewhere (say North Queensland, or Adelaide for example), so that ultimately you have a national competition similar to the Basketball or Cricket. I knwo that there are financial problems with mounting that competition, but enough good minds should be able to think their way through that issue.
The District/ State Cricket model seems to me to be a perfect model to follow and no one can argue about the strength of Australian Cricket.
This is a job for strong and determined leadership, which puts all parochialism behind it.
Then the Premier Clubs could look at setting up Talent squads and academies to further enhance their value to the region. Whilst I am a great admirer of the Sydney University Club, I agree with the first post in this thread re Sydney University. Surely one of the criteria for being recognised as a Premier club must be the Junior Structure, the talent squads, the pathways and Academy concept and its overall commitment to being the focal point for Rugby development it its respective region.
That kind of structure is where the talent will be unearthed. If we keep it to a narrow focus we will always be in the position of not having a guaranteed stream of talent coming through in all positions.
We have to get away from some of the old notions of parochialism, because if you do what you’ve always done, you’ll get what you always got.
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November 22nd 2007 @ 5:37am
sheek said | November 22nd 2007 @ 5:37am | Report comment
Gatesy,
Great opening paragraph. The ARU know they need to re-jig their structures, from top to bottom, so what do they intend to do with the ARC?
Reduce the teams from 8 to 6 apparently, due costs. Which teams will be culled? Melbourne & East (Gold) Coast, of course. Also likely, Central Coast will relocate to North Sydney. Six teams, with 3 from Sydney. That would make Sydney-siders happy, but hardly an endoresement for a national game.
Sport is now in the entertainment industry. If you don’t have a viable product with national exposure (& that means nationally based teams) you’re not going to get very far.
I can’t see the private schools giving up their inter-school comps for the sake of district club based comps. In any case, this is not a problem. Getting rugby played in more schools is the crux.
Agree that the elite academies might be counter-productive. Ian Chappell once said the great gift of the former Sheffield Shiled, now Pura Cup, was that young up & coming players had the opportunity to play with & against tried & tested experienced players, & learning from them.
For those death riding club rugby, I always thought it’s saving grace was that players had to be signed up to a district premier rugby club before getting selected for a super team, & in turn, the Wallabies. I disagree with players being signed straight from school to super teams.
Gatesy, you said: “The district/state cricket model seems to me to be a perfect model to follow & no-one can argue about the strength of Australian cricket”. Amen to that!
So if the ARU reduces the ARC from 8 to 6 teams, then why an ARC? Why not, an APC? Six teams, state based – NSW, QLD, ACT, WA, VIC & SA.
You mentioned North Qld. At a later date, you could add two new provinces – North Qld (Townsville/Cairns) & Eastern Australia (Newcastle/Gosford). Many fans probably don’t know ACT now controls most of Southern NSW. Similarly, Eastern Australia would control most of Northern NSW, leaving NSW with central-western NSW. The precedence has been set.
Okay, it’s my old chestnut (provincial comp). But I’m still waiting for people to tell me it won’t work better. Each state/province channels all its resources into the one team. VIC & SA would be propped with players from other states. For the present, VIC resources would be channelled into ACT super team, & SA resources into WA super team.
Top/down structure – Wallabies & other age rep teams; then super 14 teams; then provincial (APC) or national club (ARC) teams; then district premier rugby; then suburban & regional rugby; then high schools; then primary schools junior district teams.
That’s my vision. And apart from some tinkering & tweaking here & there, it has largely remained unchanged for over a decade. I keep plugging it because I believe it’s the best model available. I’ve done my homework, basing my structures on the models of Australian cricket, NZ rugby & SA rugby.
Each of which has achieved sustained success over a very long period of time.
November 22nd 2007 @ 9:42am
stillmissit said | November 22nd 2007 @ 9:42am | Report comment
Onside – Great quote and maybe we should all give ourselves an uppercut and leave it to the people involved. Pity, we enjoy the game of critic so much!
Sheek – I agree with your thoughts about tribalism who the hell knows where a ‘Cockatoo’ or whatever stupid name they think up comes from. The idea that they are a francise and don’t belong to a local area is marketing madness.
Top down does seem to be the only way to go. We have the advantage in Australia that the ARU is really responsible for all the elite rugby in the country as opposed to the UK where the clubs seem to be individual entities who can tell the ruling body to go to hell and they huff and puff but accept it. The downside to our centralised system is if the people involved are poor our whole system goes to the hotter place in the handbasket a la the last 6 years.
If the clubs get to the point in Australia where they can tell the ARU to bugger off our semi fringe sport is in a lot of trouble.
November 22nd 2007 @ 10:43am
gatesy said | November 22nd 2007 @ 10:43am | Report comment
Anyone interested in getting together to write a paper? Maybe Zac or Spiro could co-ordinate interested parties. Make it a one year project, say, for presentation to the ARU at some convenient time. Seems a pity to waste all of this goodwill.
A committee of about 5 or 6 should do it. That way each person could be given a specific area to research and co-ordinate. Maybe a European member to cover that aspect? I’m certainly a volunteer.
The advantage of doing it this way, in my opinion, is that you have outsiders looking in and presenting the custodians of our game with an independent view. Any takers? I still work full time, but if there was anyone who was maybe retired or semi-retired with the time to co-ordinate that would be great.
November 22nd 2007 @ 11:00am
stillmissit said | November 22nd 2007 @ 11:00am | Report comment
Gatesy – Good idea. Zac co-ordinated something like this and presented it to JON about 6 months ago but it wasn’t a seemless document more a bunch of ideas from the Roar contributors.
I would suggest Sheek as the ideal person to co-ordinate something like this. He has the knowledge and writing skills to bring it together into a powerful document with Zac and Spiro’s help. I would humbly suggest that it should be a 4 week project once the areas are agreed, that way the project is fresh and alert and could be used now rather than take a year. If you know what I mean.
The Captaincy doc by Bruce ? is very useful and timely.
November 22nd 2007 @ 11:05am
onside said | November 22nd 2007 @ 11:05am | Report comment
One of the difficulties associated with state based teams is concensus. With that in mind however the ARU recently sponsored a business lunch for the general managers from different state breweries, the idea being, they get
involved with a national rugby competition , providing sponsorship along state lines. Despite some reservations
the proposal received warm if not total acceptance by the time the group broke for lunch.
The general manager Tooheys NSW without hesitation says,”I’ll have a Tooheys New,”
The general manager of Matilda Bay WA says,” I’ll have a Matilda Bay,if we could support the Americas cup then
could certainly assist rugby in the West.”
The general manager of Cascade smiles and says”I’ll have a class of Cascade, made from pure spring water,
Ithink theres room for elite rugby in Tasmania”
The general manager of The Wig and Pen,a micro brewer from ACT says,’Ill have our most popular beer, the Kiandra
Gold Pilsener,a Czech style pilsener, with refreshing bite and a dry finish.We want to get alonside rugby in Canberra”
The general manager of Coopers in South Australia says,”I’ll have a Coopers ,the King of Beers”
The bloke from Carlton says,”We are 100% behind a new interstate rugby competition, I’ll have a Carlton Draught
the cleanest draught beer on the planet”
Finally the general manager from XXXX, in Queensland ,says, ” I’ll have a Diet Coke”
The others in the group looked at him as if he has sprouted a new head. He just shrugs and says,’well if you
poofters aren’t drinking beer, then neither will I”
GO REDS
November 22nd 2007 @ 12:43pm
sheek said | November 22nd 2007 @ 12:43pm | Report comment
Gatesy,
Good idea. There are some good heads on this site whose brains we can pick, even kiwis!!! Dublin Dave gives great Northern Hemisphere insight.
Onside, great joke, but heard it before.
November 22nd 2007 @ 2:30pm
Sam Taulelei said | November 22nd 2007 @ 2:30pm | Report comment
Great post Gatesy. When I grew up in Wellington, NZ there were a couple of schools that, other than matches against their traditional rivals, played in the club under 19 competition and not the school 1st XV competition. They had close ties with their local clubs and many school leavers ended up playing for the senior side, representing their province and some the All Blacks. This is along similar lines to what you are proposing.
The only misgiving I have of the academy system in NZ is that age rep teams and other representative teams tend to focus on selecting only those players. It was like being the invisible man unless you were a member of an Academy side. There are many cases of talented players who didn’t represent any age grade sides or academies but went on to represent their country with distinction.
I hope that isn’t the case in Australia as there are many fine athletes in your schools that could play rugby but are otherwise directed towards other sports as part of their curriculum. That is the greatest challenge for rugby in Australia, getting it introduced to more schools so that it can underpin the premier clubs and naturally flow on to the ARC or APC, Super 14 and the Wallabies.
Sorry don’t have any ideas in my brains to pick to solve that conundrum, even as a Kiwi (thanks Sheek).
November 23rd 2007 @ 11:29pm
Midfielder said | November 23rd 2007 @ 11:29pm | Report comment
AS you may guess from my name rugby is not my first game. However I have a very personal interest in rugby as one of my sons has played it for about 14 years (a number as a rep player) and many many moons ago so did I for one season as a half back. They choose me there I think because I could kick very well. Additionally I when asked help the rugby coaches on kicking styles at my local club, no big deal one or two nights per season, mention it so you can see no malice is intended in my post
I agree with the general theme of your article Gatesy, however my personal experience makes your objectives more difficult than you write. My son went to North Sydney Boys. NSB has close to 2, 000 students. But only two rugby teams, first team years 7 to 9, second team years 10 to 12. As a father I had great difficulty in allowing my son in year 7 to play against some boys in year 9. My wife was very much against it, only my son’s constant pleas wore us down.
My son’s love of rugby came from Arden (a private school in Beecroft). At Arden each year had a rugby team, making the decision as a parent more easy to make.
When at North Sydney my son played for the local club, on weekends, which was age based. His teams as did most other teams had a number of players who went to private schools. If and it was often the case a clash on Saturday occurred between School and club sides. School sides nearly always got the players. Meaning the club side played short and got a flogging. This happen to other sides we played against as well when they could not get there school players and we did the flogging.
The problem is as a parent you think was what kind code is this, especially if you come from a soccer or rugby league junior club it’s very hard fathom. Adding to the parenting issues is the boys who go to private schools get coached very well and therefore normally are better players than the local club players. Obviously this does not apply to all, club players or private school players. However the result is when the school season finishes and the private school players come back to the club teams they often get selected over club players who have turned up each week. Total parent turnoff, my son was good and always got picked but many other players never came back and the parents left with a very sour taste in their mouths.
So while I agree with the theme of your article two separate things jump out based on my experience, first given the changing student population at selective and private schools getting enough players is becoming difficult especially in the state system. Add to this a reluctance of parents in the state sector anyway to allow year 7 boys to play year 9 boys, and year 10 boys to play year 12 boys. Second any attempt to build weekend club sides is constantly wounded by the school and club clashes.
I have often suggested to my local club the answer to this is to play the local club games on Sunday’s.
I stress this is my personal experience and it is passed on in good faith and if it does not apply across the broader rugby community I apologise as no malice or stirring is intended.
November 24th 2007 @ 4:46am
stillmissit said | November 24th 2007 @ 4:46am | Report comment
Midfielder it appears from what you say that there is no co-ordination or discussions between the clubs and the local schools. I am a bit surprised about this as I thought that the clubs picked the schools players after they left school at 18 or earlier I didnt realise that there were teams who clashed with schools programs.
My local club in Sydneys western suburbs runs an under 16 and under 18 team but they play on Saturdays but the schools play during the week.
This clash should be addressed urgently as we need to get a tighter link between the clubs and the schools to ensure that the players have a road to follow.
Mind you, when I think back 45 years ago, there was no club that our school players were associated with and it was only the fact that I ran into an old school pal who talked me into playing for a local club or I might never have played rugby again after school.
This post of yours is important if the ARU/States want to organise the schools and make the most of the players coming out of our schools.
November 24th 2007 @ 5:10am
Midfielder said | November 24th 2007 @ 5:10am | Report comment
Stillmissit, my son left school six years ago so maybe co-ordination of club V private school may have been already sorted out as you suggest. I am not close enough to the local rugby club to say one way or the other. However a mate of mine is a teacher at Barker (private school) and he tells me the school still plays on Saturday so my post assumed the club V private school still exists.