Football must learn from rugby’s mistakes

Mick of Newie said  | February 1st 2008 @ 9:58am | Report comment

I have been trying to work out who is the bigger muppet this week Ben Buckley or James Sutherland, both are showing a disarming lack of view of the big picture (and by the way has anyone seen them in the same room, same suit, same management babble same love for the vested interest.)

Rugby’s other great failing was its machiavellian politics that drove O’Neill out in the first place. The FFA needs to be careful about how it manages the A league. I believe the FFA sees the A leagues success as being closely aligned to SFC’s success. It is the oft stated mantra that to succeed the A league must succeed in Sydney. The FFA needs to put in place a management structure for the A league that addresses perceptions of conflicts of interests.

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Kazama said  | February 1st 2008 @ 10:29am | Report comment

I agree that there needs to be some coverage of football on free-to-air. The problem is that, aside from SBS, none of the stations have shown that they are capable of handling football. From Channel 10’s awful coverage of the Sydney FC v LA Galaxy game, to Channel 9’s dud attempt at covering a World Cup; the worst of them all would be Channel 7 putting the NSL on at midnight and of course, the all-time classic, cutting into commercials during the game (and missing a goal during the Socceroos match against the FIFA All-Stars). The fact is FTA TV is only good at hosting one sport, and that is AFL. Until this changes and one of the networks steps forward and embraces football, or until SBS becomes cashed up enough, pay TV is where football will stay.

I agree with Ben’s point that the best leg-up we can give the other codes is to fail to qualify. In simple terms, maybe 1/4 of the population will support the Socceroos no matter what. Maybe another 1/4 loathe our game and want it to die, so they will be cheering for Qatar on Wednesday night. The other 1/2 is undecided. We need to make the World Cup to have the majority of Aussies getting behind our boys. Otherwise, it will go back to pre-Germany 06 where the majority of people didn’t give a toss about the Socceroos. Everyone loves a winner (as we have discussed before) so the best way to get people interested in our game is to be successful. The best way to drive them into the open arms of AFL, Rugby and League is to flop like we so predictably did at the Asian Cup. Mercifully, most of that undecided half didn’t care too much about the Asian Cup (perhaps given that it is new to them), so we can win them over by making consecutive World Cups.

Maybe the biggest mistake Rugby made was losing to England in back-to-back World Cups. The Wallabies are like the Cricket team - they are expected to win. Continued failure drives away the casual fans and they are left with only die hards, not numerous enough to support the sport as a mainstream entity on their own. This is now becoming the case for the Socceroos. We have reached the World Cup for the first time in 32 years, and though we did not win it we were hardly disgraced in defeat. Now we are expected to qualify again, and if we do not, then we run the risk of again becoming a fringe sport, at least as far as mainstream Australia is concerned. If we qualify for the World Cup and make the last 16 again we’ll have what we’ve never had before – regular success on the world stage. Our critics won’t be able to argue with that.

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Kazama said  | February 1st 2008 @ 11:08am | Report comment

Midfielder: “Kazama I beg to differ, cricket and rugby do rely on strong national team performances.”

Please find stated above - “The Wallabies are like the Cricket team - they are expected to win. Continued failure drives away the casual fans and they are left with only die hards, not numerous enough to support the sport as a mainstream entity on their own.”

——-

Midfielder: “The A-League I think can stand by itself to a large degree and is not as dependent on the performance of its national team.”

It can stand on its own, but the fact is unless we want to be like the NSL, whose crowds literally died out because it couldn’t connect with new fans, we need the Socceroos to succeed so that we can bring new people into the football community. IMO, if the Socceroos make the World Cup again more people will start attending A-League games on the basis that they will want to watch more football, and the A-League is the best football product locally. We need to give people a reason to be interested, and nothing sparks interest like success at the highest level and on the biggest stage. If the average Joes and Janes don’t care about the Socceroos they likely won’t care about the A-League either.

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David Glesson said  | February 1st 2008 @ 12:45pm | Report comment

“I find rugby a stunningly boring game, populated by odious people and undeserving of its column inches”

Boring! What about soccer where nothing is happening for 80% of the game and has players that duck and dive as much as possible to milk a penalty/card. Im sure im not the only one that was left with a sour taste after watching the Socceroos match against the Eyeties at the WC.
Also odious people. Does that include the Zavos family that run this site??

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sledgeross said  | February 1st 2008 @ 12:59pm | Report comment

Whats killed Rugby has been the transition and evolution from a free flowing and entertaining amateur game, to a dour, technical non event. Money has meant higher stakes, players are taught to “go for the percentages”, flair and variety has been superceded by robotic and predictable playing patterns. Unlike Rugby League, which seemingly reinvents its style every few years, in addition to capturing the hearts of “the great unwashed”, Union just doesnt have the lustre that it had 15 years ago. Rugby is a boring, pathetic shadow of what it once was.
Similary, football has the imagination of the masses, its whether the A League and Aussie team can continue to capture and inspire the minds of the masses. Average Joe will support something thats gives him entertainment and enjoyment, a sense of belonging. The average punter is lost to rugby, with its techinalities, interpretations and stop start nature. Football must not let its standards slip so low, and take past successes for granted.

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Cazza said  | February 1st 2008 @ 2:23pm | Report comment

Odious?

Rugby supporters??

When was the last time a riot happened at a game of Rugby? When was the last time a town was torn up by touring Rugby supporters? I can’t recall a time when a Rugby player of an ethnic minority was escorted from the field for their own protection from opposition supporters. These acts deserve repugnance and they have been carried out all over the world by people that populate your game, Jesse.

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Ben of Phnom Penh said  | February 1st 2008 @ 2:35pm | Report comment

Jesse, you’re making me blush. Actually I do not believe that the Asian Cup was a set-back for Australian football (despite being in the stands for that painful game against Iraq), it was the reality check we required. Personally I find it amazing that 56,000 people are going to watch Australia play Qatar of all teams. There appears to be a growing realisation amongst both the footballing community and the general public that Asian countries can play football and that a real game is on our hands. This realisation, and the crowds that follow, may actually improve the FFA’s financial position as we (hopefully) progress through the qualifiers. On a longer term it will also mean improved crowds and interest the Asian Cup which will no longer be viewed as a Mickey Mouse competition, which is something I felt many pundits believed deep in their hearts it was. With any luck this in turn will result in improved crowds and increased value of tv rights for the Asian Cup qualifiers.

The trick with tv rights is what to do for the future. Fox really underpinned the sport in its development phase and have been rewarded for their foresight accordingly with sky rocketing viewer numbers. With big crowds turning up for qualifiers and the A-League, the free to air networks will be running the numbers, I believe they will be quite pleasing.

As for European stars coming home more often, this may be problematic. It is indeed desirable however it is something that needs to be managed carefully. Certainly a mini-tournament, such as is held regularly in Asia, would be useful as both a marketing and a development tool. At the end of the day Australia is a long way away from Europe and hence the quality and marketability of the A-League players will become paramount as they would form a significant part of any such tournament. The Japanese can do it, I can’t see why we cannot as well.

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Michael C said  | February 1st 2008 @ 3:30pm | Report comment

Interesting.

The strength of the Socceroos vs the Wallabies. At present, the Socceroos are not representative of the domestic competition. The Wallabies at least have their players return ‘home’ to play.
Therefore, the Socceroos infact draw attention AWAY from the A-LEague and reflect poorly upon it - especially when players are effectively told that training and sitting on the bench in Europe is preferable than actually playing in the A-League.

We (non soccer diehards) were told - just wait for the Asian Cup…..yep, were waited….and there it was……maybe a farce because it was played in was it 4 different countries and it just seemed disjointed. Certainly the Indonesians drew some great home crowds, but the number of games including involving Australia that barely drew enough patrons to par for the gate attendants. The Socceroos were ordinary at least, and dis interested and almost as many worrying comments came from that camp as from Adelaide Utd after they lost their GF. It all came across as amateur hour, as a shambles. The message for many soccer outsiders for sometime is that there’s the Socceroos and there’s the socceroos. i.e. the Euro socceroos playing a game they care about……and then there’s the other side of the coin. Previously there were brand damaging meaningless romps against the Solomon Islands etc. There were ‘friendlies’ of little significance played in such a manner and dressed up as momentus moments in national sports - such as defeating England when their Swedish coach failed to realise his opponents really wanted to win - just because. People therefore outside of soccer, may be more likely to still prefer to identify with the Wallabies vs any of the top 5 regular international opponents than the Socceroos against teams such as Qatar etc,…., unless it IS the knockout game that means WC or not to WC.

FTA coverage. Certainly it seems crazy locking away the Socceroos on pay tele. The A-League however, remember, for now, the BIG teams such as MVFC are drawing……20-30K once a fortnight in the 2nd biggest city in the country. For now, and probably the next 10 years - pay TV is certainly the spot. Simply amongst soccer fans, a neutral A-League game up against Man Utd vs Chelsea on pay - and tell me what they’ll be watching. AFL is different kettle of fish - there is no ‘better’ standard international competitions that give the local product a run for its money.

Also, across the world, is not soccer invariable a pay TV staple. It does not lend itself to FTA tv. There are not enough regular ad breaks opportunities. And certainly, if there’s 1 or 2 goals score, then fans would be furious to see ads rather than 15 replays from 10 angles of the goal they’d waiting to the 83rd minute for….so, don’t hold your breath on that front.

The A-League as well, strongest in NSW - but, the example of NRL is that they have a very strong ‘local’ FTA market. The AFL has a very strong ‘local’ FTA market. The A-League doesn’t. It has perhaps a more consistant national spread, but won’t be a dominant player in a large enough market for the national networks to run with for sometime yet. Although, there seems a fair focus on expansion in NSW and QLD and so the FFA seem to be angling to fight the Rugby codes toe to toe. Good luck - especially if the HAL expands to say 28 rounds and overlaps both Rugby seasons more so, competing therefore head to head rather than almost entirely off set.

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Midfielder said  | February 1st 2008 @ 9:27pm | Report comment

Kazama

The NSL died because they were ethnic crowds, run by incompetent and sometime corrupt management. The A-League crowds are almost four times that of the NSL, aside from the Hellas teams who sometimes got 8 or even 10 thousand, but the crowd average for the old NSL was about 4, 000, it just over 15, 000 now.

The A-league maybe could have one match per week on FTA right now, but I still think its a bit early, I think union put the ARC on FTA and it costs them big time with respect from everyone.

But mate we are on the way it is only a matter of time be patient

Michael C

Your point about the Socceroos showing how inferior the A-League is wrong, there is not one person who supports and watches the A-League who does not know how much better the EPL is than the A-League, but it does not matter. I follow the Mariners and am more interested in their performance than Liverpool and Man U my EPL teams.

Further more people are starting to understand what it takes for the European based players to get back, respect is starting to grow.

The crowds to will pick up and you are right about Melbourne Victory crowds being big, but most things in Melbourne draw big crowds.

Your point about football and NSW & Old teams, other states ignored. The problem with your argument in that in NSW & especially Old there is a very large rural population and many large regional centres that are not in southern states. In fact when regional centres are included in the national TV ratings the NRL beats the AFL so its logical to put teams on the central coast, Newcastle, gold coast, Townsville

Onside

Re do positive things and rugby only a few minor errors. You missed the point, football can learn from rugby mistakes, - but it will still do many positive things it just lets not make these mistakes.

Sledgeross

Brillant

Ben of Phnom Penh

Ben I agree that people are seeing that beating Asian countries and club teams in the Asian League will improve crowds as people will see it as a real challenge to win.

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matta said  | February 2nd 2008 @ 8:55am | Report comment

Browneye… WTF does the Sharks crowd have to do with Rugby? just so you know before you comment nest time, Rugby is Rugby - League is League - The Cronulla Sharks play League.

For mine, I love this debate. There is plentlyof players and money to go around fr all codes to survive quite nicely in Australia. The sooner we all understand that AFL will always be the number 1 with Soccer, Rugby and League taking turns as 2, 3 and 4 the better.

I tip that League will have a bit a rise over the next few years. Austrlia will win the RLWC and the NRL marketing team are doing a great job. - esp with South Sydney.

Yes, the Answer for Rugby is to turn back into ‘the running game’ and to, for christ sake, get the world Calendar sorted out!!! Having defined International and 1st class windows will do wonders for the game.

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westy said  | February 2nd 2008 @ 2:33pm | Report comment

It is important to understand Rugby is on the rise in nortern Europe the club competition is very strong with some tribal folowing. It is on the decline in AUSTRALIA not necessarily elsewhere. This is a direct long term result of Rugby pursuing an elitist class based game in Australia. This was always dangerous and narrow Foundation to build agame just as the A league has turned its back on narrow based ethnic identities to be inclusive of everyone . Rugby followers can now watch good European rugby teams on pay T.V. and any decent Rugby players can play league or go overseas.

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Michael C said  | February 3rd 2008 @ 9:10pm | Report comment

The main lesson Soccer learned from Rugby (League) was that no matter what the Storm does in Melbourne, you don’t take on AFL head to head by putting a team of ring-ins on at night in winter at Olympic Park…….a bit like getting involved in a land war in Asia.

So - soccer, in the best tradition of brave Sir Robin scarpered off to summer - y’know, the domain that allowed basketball to survive after also having failed head to head with the winter codes.

Maybe because I come from Melbourne, I know way, way too many Greeks and Italians - who love their footy, and also their soccer (overseas that is). They’ll go now and then to see Victory, but they are educated enough to know that they’re watching an ordinary spectacle - and even comp, but even by means of ordinariness!!

Midfielder -

’tis always a redundant argument. People tailor their conditioning to the demands of a given sport. What I found amazing a couple of years ago, was that the AFL had quickened up so much that mid-sized players like North Melb captain Adam Simpson had had to drop 5kg to keep up.
The Rugby folk in most instances are 10-20 kg heavier than the same height AFL counterparts. Only so many players are a genetic perfect fit for a given sport/code.
That said, I think it’s more the ‘culture’ of sports. In Melb, there’s concerns about the ‘culture’ of soccer. {and I recognise that in many countries soccer is the ‘only’ or main sport, and therefore the most likely vehicle for such activities}. The obvious apparent cultures include the Italian Ultras (and there was certainly a bit of focus on them last year), the Englands travelling supporters, and the general acceptance of the use of flares (I’ve heard people claim “They add to the atmosphere” and “The kids enjoy them”). Well, in Melb, we’ve seen seats burned and scorched at the MCG by disrespecting Soccer fans with flares……you DON’T do that!! Crowd issues are always seen as potential ethnic trouble - not just due to the ‘history’, but I think because of certain ethnic splits amongst some of the ’supporter groups’.
That’s one element of the culture of the game of which people are (perhaps too) wary of.

The other includes people carrying on over the top when they score a goal. Carrying on as though they just achieved something that they didn’t really expect to……personally, given that I prefered the Dennis Lillee flick the sweat from the brow and concentrate on getting the next one ahead of Brett Lees ruddy chainsaw - - - obviously then, and being more of an AFL fan, I prefer people to score a goal and give the look that they just ‘meant’ to do what they just did, and that they are mentally focussed and ready to go as soon as play resumes to get another one.
Carrying on like a headless chicken, and most often paying zero attention to team mates - especially those that helped ’set up’ the play……that too often looks like individuals parading at playing a team game.

(some of the opinions stated above have been ’stretched a little’ to make the point)

And the point is - the Australian sports environment is a bit more diluted - and has many more points of reference, such that people carrying on will just be making fools of themselves. (a bit like how Shaun Tait was mouthing off after shaking the Kiwis in a semi-meaningless ODI, ….., he’s got a bit more to achieve yet, like, a regular spot and a decent test match,….before he should be mouthing off).

Matta -

money for all.

Depends how ‘comfortable’ anyone get’s in the here and now.
If soccer can draw in off shore cash, that’d be good.
Rugby League is already in trouble because, as Willie Mason found out, there is no more money, the NRL players are on ratio of total revenue being paid more than their AFL counterparts. And so, we see guys heading off to England - some for retirement, but, try explaining why Matt King would depart a team travelling like Storm?!?!!? Union, has no money and is losing it like it was wine being turned back into water. Union can’t afford to keep fighting for players with League, but has no decent or expansive grass roots - the amount of money they would need to structure up…..well, at first we can see how much the ARC lost in one year and was projected to continue losing…..which was enough to kill it before it killed the ARU.

The AFL is hoping that the next tv rights will at least continue their great momentum - and as such, are making big noises about such things at a 17th and 18th team in Gold Coast and West Sydney. Why - firstly, the promise of an extra game a week, and secondly, the promise of a game ‘locally’ each week into Qld and NSW markets. This allows a promise of ‘growth’. Because, the AFL has the Vic, SA,WA and Tas markets locked away without really much reason to anticipate ‘growth’.

The NRL gives no reason to anticipate growth outside of present markets. I know noise is made now and then about Storm being shown live on Ch.9 - - I am marginally surprised that they haven’t managed to find some niche time slot - for disaffected Richmond supporters to watch the Storm…..

HAL - enough money - a lot of soccer people are dreaming big - but are light on for the detail to get there, and add a fair few assumptions along the way. The big question will be the value that they can gain from Fox. There will not be a bidding war with FTA for a long time over the HAL other than perhaps the GF - - similar to how people might, hmmm, such as SBS, want to show the Superbowl, or FA Cup final, but wouldn’t touch the regular stuff. So, maybe, the Socceroos can generate a bidding war, especially come later stages of a WC campaign. But - that’s irregular stuff. In the mean time, how much money does soccer want or need. The reality is that soccer will easily, soooo easily consume as much money as it can - with no limit - - we know that because, the global economy of soccer includes huge player transfers paid by clubs with Billionaires pumping in money allowing clubs to make massive losses each year - Chelsea being the obvious example. So - soccer has to ask itself, just how far do they want to go, and how much money would get how many clubs internationally competitive as a ‘glamour’ club, y’know, up there with the Gunners, AC Milan or Real Madrid……in the interim, how much is needed to retain the ‘Fred’s of this world?

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Midfielder said  | February 4th 2008 @ 9:28am | Report comment

Michael C

What I find so pathetic in your argument pertaining to crowd control at football matches is the AFL have some feral clubs supporters. Yes football has its fair share but what is different between a number of blokes getting drunk at a AFL / cricket match and people at football.

They are the same people dickheads, yet in football every single thing is talked about. An example at a football match in Sydney in 2005 the Croatians and Serbians had a go at each other front page news for weeks on a current affair, talk back radio and so on. But 7 people arrested, yet on the same afternoon at a NRL match with St George playing over 60 arrested for violence and poor behaviour. Do you ever here it on the news, funny neither did I.

So stop the stereotyping, it may still work to an AFL crowd but not to a football crowd.

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Michael C said  | February 4th 2008 @ 3:19pm | Report comment

btw - I would never drive a car with Victorian number plates to a footy much at AAMI stadium.

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John Ryan said  | February 4th 2008 @ 3:59pm | Report comment

Some what like you sledgeross,of course theres no violence at AFL games in the crowd,its only when the drunks are on there way home,I know I lived near an AFL ground for a while,I would have felt safer with a gun handy.
As for Football I think there crowds roit well when given there head,flares ect Croat Serbs ect a good time was had by all.
Rugby League has it crowd problems as well with the Dogs supporters

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Michael C said  | February 4th 2008 @ 9:41pm | Report comment

Westy - agreed with all that you say.

I lament that there is not enough ‘2nd chance’ opportunity in the AFL. That there needs to be greater scope for players who for whatever reason may not ‘mature’ until age 24 or 25. At present the system only allows for this if that players hasn’t already been in the system.
The AFL draft in 2006 saw a dozen Qld kids picked - that was unprecedented in one year. But, that means that suddenly a dozen kids from the ‘footy’ states have missed out. Certainly, the AFL only needs a niche presence in NSW (Sydney) to make it very worthwhile. So, if within 5 years we have regularly got 20-30 kids being drafted out of NSW and QLD, then I hope as heck that if we haven’t got the 2 extra teams by then that they will be right around the corner. And the 17th and 18th teams MUST be new ‘local’ entities that have a bit of a protected local zone for about 3-5 years.
Achieve that, and the AFL has all that it needs for the next 20 years.
btw - I’m glad you enjoy AFL. I married a Kiwi, and so went and saw half a dozen Storm games around 98/99. I found the strict enforcement of ‘knock-on’ annoying, as, the crowd seemed to ‘rise’ for 2 things, one was a ‘break’ for the line and the other was the ball ’spilling’ into the open - a potential contested ‘free’ ball. Alas, the latter was invariably called back for a knock on. And so, in going to the RL I was able to realise that I most love about AFL the ‘contested ball’ and the neutral restarts (bounce in the centre after a goal). That I found an interesting exercise, like languages, sometimes you learn more about your own by studying an other.
cheers.

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Michael C said  | February 5th 2008 @ 6:37am | Report comment

Certainly - it appears pathetic now. The sub-editors are making mileage off peoples perceptions based on a former ‘reality’…..or they are inspired by something more sinister. Certainly, people suggest that the News Ltd media is particularly harsh on soccer, and in reality all sports other than the part owned NRL.

For people who don’t realise, similar to the “Riot at the soccer” standard headline, there’s another standard headline and mis-representation that occurs. “AFL soft on drugs”. I’ll do an article on it later today and direct you to it - along with links etc.

btw - John Ryan : it’s all about how much ‘head’ that certain elements are given. In the old days in particular, when facilties at suburban grounds were a bit average, and full strength beer was sold in cans etc, but today, going to the footy, I haven’t seen any incidents for 10 years……of course, Nth Melb games are less well attended than other clubs. We’ve moved forward a fair way, which allows families to attend pretty safely - although I must admit we get family reserved seats so that we don’t ‘mingle’ in the outer.
The FFA simply needs to ‘lead’ and ensure that no dangerous ‘ultras’ or ‘factory’s evolve, and flares are a huge no-no, and that we never end up with games played as lock-outs……although that seems to reign mainly in Spain.

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NUFCMVFC said  | April 20th 2008 @ 5:07pm | Report comment

Michael C

In regards to article about differences in crowd behaviour, the fact of whether it is being reported or not is only half of the issue, the other half being the nature of how it’s reported

First of all, A League has successfully underpinned its rivalries on State/Regional rivlalries and has attuned to those. It has become ethnically neutral so the whole “ethnic divisions” issues are in fact irrelevant. If you look closely at the Australian supporter groups, you will see many people of a diverse range of backgrounds supporting the team out of passion for the Sport and for their local city/region. The state based patriotism takes precedence of how they identify themselves over other factors like background, religion etc, whereas in the old NSL, due to the underlying ethnic community affiliations, the fans identified themselves primarily with the relevant nationality ofr their background, and so the issues often came ot the fore

As far as the “Police need to keep an eye on the SUpporters group”, this is part of the problem, people think the problem lies with the form of support itself, when in reality the issues that have led to violence have been issues of underlying social tension in the local envirnoment. Generally speaking, the Australian based supporters groups, being based on State/regional/Australian patriotism, are attuned to the Australian psyche, there have never been any wars between the different States, Federation was achieved peacefully, there is no reason for violence over old history. The Problems in the A League, where there have been some, is more down to juvenile behaviour IMO, which is no different really to drunkenness, it is just channeled differently due to the different customs of support, A League is on a much smaller scale.

You mentioned the police looked nervous, and this is also part of the problem, because a) they aren’t really being briefed properly so they are prone to mis reading the situation and being heavy handed when it really is unnecassary, but also because of how the media reports soccer violence and tries to reinforce a perception of it being intrinsically violent when it is not. Hence we have commetns that 190 people is better than about 8 people being evcited just because football supporters chant with “venom” and in a group, an alarming lack of ability to distinguish between a crowd of people chanting with a hard edge in order to unsettle the opposing team and with passion and individuals within the crowd acting improperly. This looking and treating the crowd with a homogenous mindset has actually been found to be a factor that led to the escalation of disorder.

Interesting parallels with the tennis over the pas couple of years, obviously the Serbs and Croatians went to the tennis with their ethnic background nationlities taking precedence in how they identified themselves, and so issues relating to taht came to the fore nad they acted violently towards eachtother - does that mean that tennis is intrinsically violent? No, the issues were simply being channeled through tennis. And it is the same with soccer/football, the issues have just been channeled through that sport, in Europe it is often pretty much only through that sport because they are the major sports by far, with the NSL they were channeled through that sport on a semi frequent basis. Anyway with the tennis, next year there is plenty of talk about acting tough on violence, then we see cops who some people reckoned were on edge, they then react, some say too strongly, on Greek fans chanting, in a match where you have Chilean fans too, no large scale violence really intended as there are no real conflicts between the two historically, but the misperception still had an effect.

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peter_ga said  | August 23rd 2008 @ 7:09pm | Report comment

As for regular fixtures with Indonesia, unfortunately this would be a massive mismatch, if the full socceroo squad could be assembled from Europe.
There is now a round of fixtures with the Asian cup alternating with world cup qualifying on a four year cycle. Throw in asian champions league, and thats enough faking and diving for now thanks.

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