By Roar Insight
February 21st 2008 @ 8:35am
Expansion is the AFL’s best bet for success
I’ll start this blog by stating what I hope is obvious. You’re here at The Roar because, hopefully, you’ve found this isn’t a place to pull punches.
We’re talking AFL and it’s my job to cut through the spin cycle. I have no agenda, except for doing what I believe is in the best interests of the game and its fans, and for keeping the game’s bean counters and scribes accountable.
I have only agreed to do this column on the proviso that I can call it how I see it, even if the boss doesn’t like it. We’re going to have some fun with this blog because the entire game – not just the administrative body – is a protected species.
Fans, unfortunately, are kept at arm’s length and have no choice but to follow the agenda of News Ltd, Fairfax or the Australian Football League. A rough deal, I reckon.
But if you’re worried this will be a pessimistic, strictly off-field whinge-fest, don’t worry, we’ll discuss Chris Judd’s hamstring soon. Sounds good? Great. So, let’s get the AFL part of The Roar sizzling with discussion.
In the past few days, there’s been an explosion of talk about two new teams joining the AFL. First thing to realise is this: there is no magic number. If Melbourne could support 15 teams, they would. If they could support only five, well, there would only be that many teams. Fitzroy and South Melbourne have been unfortunate but necessary casualties of the system.
So when some faux moral crusader comes waltzing in off the long run – I’m backing Trevor Grant or Ron Reed – to say an 18-team league would destroy the competition, I’d advise you to look elsewhere (how that pair went out of their way to attack harmless soccer fans recently made for an alarming heads up on their disdain for new things). Professional sports teams are a matter of supply and demand, not magic numbers.
I’ll say it here and now: the Gold Coast market will prove an absolute winner, hands down. Western Sydney, while a much tougher market, is an essential step if the AFL wants to make the step from ‘bigger than its rivals’ to the nation’s ‘national sport’. But it is not as ready as the Gold Coast.
The Coast can’t be ignored any longer. But while interest in the code is already there, an uprooted club won’t work. Queenslanders, even those close enough to hurl a cane toad to Tweed Heads, can’t get enough of their home-grown teams and heroes.
For whatever reason, AFL football draws a crowd. The Brisbane Lions draw comparable attendances to the NRL’s biggest club, the Brisbane Broncos. The Swans are nearly twice as big as any NRL team in Sydney. But the lesson from these experiences is that while the code eventually tends to shine through, building a solid base is an essential pre-cursor to building a team, unless you want to lose as much money as Geoffrey Edelsten or Christopher Skase.
If the AFL moves hard and fast to upgrade Carrara appropriately, and keeps pouring in the cash to supplement the development and promotion of the game in the region as it has done for the past decade, then I do believe the Gold Coast Sharks/Suns/Stingrays will become a strong, viable club in less than ten years from now.
This isn’t to say build it and they will come, because the AFL’s tentacles have dangled deep into South-east Queensland for some time. Now the whole state seems to be catching on - just look at the 2006 draft, where eight of first 32 picks came from the sunshine state, with 11 players picked overall. The game is spreading and it would be negligent to deny the people the team they want.
Don’t buy this saturated market rubbish. Melbourne’s market is ‘saturated’, apparently. Yet the Kangaroos will sign up more members in 2007 than any NRL club, and will probably end up turning over a strong profit (albeit only after being threatened with relocation). If 3.7 million Melburnians can support 10 AFL clubs, powerful NRL and A-League franchises and even two NBL teams, I think half-a-million Coasties can handle one NRL club, one AFL club, and probably the Gold Coast Galaxy over summer as well.
The tag ‘Boomtown Australia’ doesn’t guarantee success in itself, but it reflects the fact that within five years, the Gold Coast will become an important cultural, financial and residential hub, with sporting desires quickly being shaped. They need an AFL team to grow up with.
Now to Sydney. That gosh darn mess of a city; five wholly different identities crammed into a basin which stretches from the mountains to the ocean. They already have a team, and while they’ve put a respectable amount of work into the west, the Swans are the team of the eastern and northern suburbs. That is their market.
West of Strathfield, they don’t mind the Swans, but love either the Eels or Panthers. They have their own identity, and don’t think of themselves as being Sydneysiders. They are ‘westies’.
Unlike Melbourne, Sydney is dreadfully difficult to navigate, and is divided by battlelines of beaches and bridges. Thus, folks tend to mix in their own areas, and each region gets stigmatised accordingly – northies are snobby old money, easties are filthy rich and plastic, southies are rednecks, westies are bogans and inner westies are alternative hippies.
Nobody really gets along, although the east and north are kind of amicable, and they are comfortable sharing a love of the Swans, Waratahs and the SCG Members’ pavilion.
Out west, they have a hunger for sport. Working class sport. Rugby League is their game, but the AFL monster is bit like the drilling machine from the final Matrix movie; wherever Australians live, they will be found by the AFL.
Already kids are emerging from Sydney ‘Aussie rules’ clubs (that expression should be outlawed); the product of long overdue investments north of the Riverina. They are well behind what’s happening in ‘SEQ’, however, and the open-mindedness of Gold Coast residents and the pre-existing infrastructure and investment means they are ready to roll.
But Western Sydney cannot be ignored. The market is too big. I’m not sure the AFL can get a team to operate there just yet, but within three years of the Sharks (or whatever name they get), a team representing the two-thirds of Australia’s biggest city should be in the AFL.
Expansion now is not as necessary as it was in 1987, and it may not be as challenging or rewarding. But for the sake of a truly national competition, and for respect from two of Australia’s most important markets, the AFL must work on that Gold Coast team now, and keep drilling to reach those westies.
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Al said | February 21st 2008 @ 1:17pm | Report comment
um…ok
Your knowledge of Sydney seems to be at the same level as those people who dismiss AFL as a sport for those black clothed, tram riding, umbrella carrying Mexicans. See I can make broad inaccurate generalisations with no basis in fact too!!!
Michael C said | February 21st 2008 @ 2:45pm | Report comment
Interesting quotes from the Fairfax REalfooty article from Parramatta boss Denis Fitzgerald.
(http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/the-battle-for-western-sydney-has-just-begun/2008/02/16/1202760668933.html?page=2)
Parramatta boss Denis Fitzgerald called for the NRL to consider expansion of its own, with a Sydney team moving to the NSW Central Coast and New Zealand fielding a second team.
On the possibility of AFL luring western Sydney juniors away from league, Fitzgerald said: “There’s already plenty of AFL in western Sydney, north-western Sydney, south-western Sydney - I don’t think it’ll make too much of a difference, to be honest.
“There’s already a lot of junior AFL fields and competitions. From a Sydney point of view, the Swans have doing well for a few years now so AFL has already been trying to make inroads. I can’t see rugby league changing from being the No.1 code. You can’t say always, but I can’t see it happening for at least 10 years.”
——
I reckon there’s a bit of storm in a tea cup. Sure, kids might get a greater level of choice - however, if there’s one lesson EVERYONE should learn from WAGGA is that kids that grow up exposed to the greater variety of codes quite often end up the greater players of the code they finally choose. It can actually be win-win. As with the Wellington Hurricanes Super 14s learning to play AFL for a practice match against an amateur Wellington AFL team. There are many benefits for rugby kids to play a couple of seasons of Aust Footy.
Cricket has an very real interest to ensure that there are dedicated ovals that are available for cricket over summer and footy in winter - rather than just pegging out an oval across the soccer/rugby fields.
What will be seen is just another reason for better standard and a better availability of sporting facilities in West Sydney - it can only be good. It’s all win wn….well, at grass roots level.
However, the AFL team itself.
Already, the AFL via their direct revenue grant the clubs about $6.5m annually to effectively cover total player payments. Getting a paid for squad is not the issue. All the rest comes down to the club and it’s off-field support and structures. NOrth Melb in recent years has been getting up to $9.5m annually. So, an extra $3m in various ways. Some of that I gather included the underwritten ‘promotional’ games at Cararra. So - how much would the AFL have to spend each year about the TPP payment for a new West Sydney franchise? Really hard to say. If it starts out as members based - well, that alone is an ‘un-Sydney’ concept. But - if people are willing to sign up and take ownership - then who really knows. The obvious selling point is that you can have you Eels, or Panthers or Tigers, but, you can all unite to support the Westies FC. (and so the AFL needs to get in before the FFA - and there’s only so wide a window there, the FFA know they need to expand beyond NSW state borders first - otherwise, they really would just be the NSW invitational soccer association. And so, they will target the Gold Coast - that’s fine for the AFL, they have got good foundations there and QLD is ahead of NSW in footy respects - the AFL should be fine medium/long term there. And so, the FFA, a little short on funds and still locked into a 7 yr $120m TV rights deal that shields even the Socceroos from FTA are left not quite sure how grand plans they can afford to make for the short/medium time frame. The AFL are much more able to plan and develop West Sydney - and this isn’t an overnight whim - and so, the market is actually dictating that the AFL MUST jump in now or forever hold their peace. The last time Sydney was in a position to favour the ‘indigenous’ game, about 100 years ago, the forces of Aust Footy were thwarted - - now, hopefully , a more modern and self-confident Australian, a nation able to say ’sorry’, might actually be able to properly embrace it’s own game - - - and thus give the world even more reason to look ‘down under’ and realise that we are a different people worth visiting.
oikee said | February 21st 2008 @ 4:46pm | Report comment
Mr C you are exactly right its a storm in a tiny teacup, look i have just said on daves blog, aussie rules is a country game, nothing more, league union and soccer are world games, even league has struggled in this area, but with the world cup this year it will get more coverage throughout the world, soccer(football) rides the back of being a world game, so they have no problems growing, and they will, rugby needs to compete with league and always have done better, but we are now into a new century and league is firing on all guns. By this i mean they now have world challenge and australia day cup, england is growing super league into france and wales, now, think about a.f.l they are trying to get bigger in oz. Can you see where i am going, they not only have to compete with all other codes here, but now they are going to get flogged by world cup challenges by the other codes, by this i mean every four years there will be one codes world cup, I think a.f.l is good to have, like every other sport, but the others have 100 years world experience and devolopment on aussie rules, sorry facts.
Michael C said | February 22nd 2008 @ 11:30am | Report comment
oikee -
NOt a tiny teacup to the tea leaves, sugar granules and the like that inhabit that tea cup.
What I write below isn’t trying to be a ‘put down’, please, persist, it’s more a perspective of ’sorry facts’
btw - RL international - that’s a bit over the top isn’t it. The recent efforts of the Kiwis, how many games did they actually score in? And their coach was pretty scathing of their mercenary attitude of not wanting to be there.
In reality, the Kangaroos games are a long last to the Wallabies and Socceroos. And likewise the RLWC is a long way behind the RUWC, ICCWC, and especially the FIFA WC.
Heck, who’s coming, Fiji (struggle to afford to come and also sustain home competition), TOnga and Samoa, and PNG. Y’know - the power house nations.
Look - for a non-international code - by comparison - the 3rd AFL International cup is being held this year. At this stage 14 teams are effectively confirmed of the ‘real potential attendees’. And note - NO expats, no eligibility via grandparents or parents country of birth.
And attending will be : US, Canada, Ireland, NZ, Britain (Scotland and Wales included - NOT split out to boost numbers), PNG, Sth Africa, Samoa, Denmark, Finland, Sweden, Japan, Israel/Palestine and China.
Doubtful are Spain, Tonga and Nauru (previous attendees) - where, the cost to attend can be prohibitive.
Countries like Germany early on indicated that the funds are better focused on local development.
In reality, Estonia, one of the affiliate nations - the RUgby League there isn’t much different to the AFL in - say - Austria. Even say Germany, listed as about 80 registered players in 2006. WEll, gee, there’s about 5-6 German Aust Footy teams. And they play an annual tri-series against Denmark and Sweden.
What I’m trying to point out, is that outside of most notably England and Australia, Rugby League is not much better the Aust Footy around the world.
The sooner it just merges with Union the better.
The sad thing is that some NSW and QLD expats overseas might be so anti Aust Footy that they try to portray Rugby League as ‘Australian Footy’….poor buggers overseas have no hope to understand what’s what.
But look - relative to sorry facts:
consider the NRL. Over reliance on gaming revenue. Vulnerable clubs to volatility of pokies tax rates and new anti pokies senator due to take up residence in the house mid year - along with perhaps balance of power.
Stuff all club membership.
Feeble heartland attendance - in fact, consider AFL last year 7 mill to 176 games plus 9 finals. NRL jumping up and down about breaking the 3 m barrier. Except, of course, there were an extra 24 games played. So, sure as heck the numbers would want to have gone up.
NRL - facing salaries pressures BECAUSE both it AND Union are INternational.
And facing incursion from the FFA in practicall all the ‘regional’ outposts that the NRL is so reliant upon. Best crowds come the further away from Sydney (except in Melb of course).
There’s no known Vic players in the NRL (maybe the National Youth League will create a pathway, or, maybe it’ll follow the ARC as a single year expensive excercise).
Look - I don’t think many AFL folk care about the AFL NOT being international. Every 4 years - look - the RLWC, if not held in Australia especially - will be lost in amongst RUWC, Bledisloe, Tri-Nations, Soccer WC & qualifiers, Asian Champions and so on.
Where the AFL has strength is that 22 rounds are NOT interrupted by loss of players to SoO duties (we killed that off ourselves) and/or international duties and/or bought out by overseas clubs such as Fred or Matt King. This is the flip side of the apparent sorry fact of not being professionally international - is that A. the talent pool isn’t exposed by the national team getting thumped or it’s ‘world’ ranking slipping, B. club competition is king.
Remember, there are over half a million club members who are happy that to sign up - and - I reckon part of the reason other codes don’t have the same level of membership (apart from private ownership) is that the club comp is 2nd or 3rd tier to the International and or interstate competition. And that therefore reduces the value proposition at the club level.
anyway, sorry facts or otherwise - really, there’s not much room for facts in the irrational and emotive world of sports - - - you should know that!!!!
Westy said | February 22nd 2008 @ 11:39am | Report comment
Michael c….You perform much better and your argument s more cogent when you stick to AFL being the premier Provincial/ national code in Australia. Really Michael lay of the Inernational aspects of AFL. IT is marketing nonsense and weakens your other more credible arguments.
Michael C said | February 22nd 2008 @ 12:28pm | Report comment
Sorry Westy -
to succinct.
Rugby League isn’t ‘great’ because of it’s international presence - and in fact, because it IS marketed as a “World Cup” , RL makes itself a laughing stock.
AFL is ‘great’ presently because it DOES NOT have a real international presence (the fact that it isn’t necessarily that far of RL’s international spread is ironic).
What the future dictates as a flaw or an asset, I’m not sure, but, for now, what to one person is a fundamental flaw - is, to another person the beauty of the game.
Now - that isn’t just a structural admin thing either, that transcends onto the field. The way in some cases people view each game on the paddock. There’s no perfect game - just popularity contests.
(btw - I don’t paint the Aust Footy o-s as anything other than rank amatuers having a kick - but, reality, most of the RL international presence is no more than that, but, they try to market it differently - - - the AFL itself o-s is a different story - but I’m not talking about exhibition games conducted in Dubai and any marketing spin real or imagined around that)
oikee said | February 22nd 2008 @ 5:16pm | Report comment
I was not looking for a fight with you mr.c i was only stating facts, this last comment you have about your game and international presence, is it being broadcast around the world, as in the other games like football and union, and league, i never mentioned how many countries played league, and i know germany has not got a huge presence, you dont need to convince me, as for your three countries, ireland wales and scotland and england, 4 they are their own countries that make up the brithish isles, dont know what you are trying to get at there, lets get down to bussiness, its all about making money, and if you try to argue otherwise then i dont know what your taking,
You talk about 3 million following league, that is 3 million paying guests , your 7 million is half that because you doulble up, yes thats right, in melbourne everyone can get to the games, not so for league, we are spread out across the country, and when we have a 10,000 attendance at a game, we have a half million or so watching the game, this is the big bikkies,
Now i know you wont watch this world cup in oz, but hey, thats ok, your loss, those who follow our game, and the list is growing, as you know because we have got the figures to prove it as you have told us, yes we cheer when we achieve things, league is a struggle, thats a part of it we like, goes with our culture,
those who watch it will see how far league has improved over the years, and the best ever games have been at previous world cups, that you would not have a clue about because you dont follow league, and i bet your that pigheaded that you dont even follow the storm, and they are playing there guts out for you lot down there, thats there reward from you lot. Knock them and everyone elses games,
Just hope the football grows that much in melbourne and you have trouble competeing with them, i have said this all along, you are ethnic domanated down there, so football(soccer) is a natural, and other states dont stop your code from expanding, but you lot resist everything, and this will catch up with what your future holds, nothing you can do about, jump up and down, or at least learn to, then you might be able to take something away from this post. thanks, for nothing.
P.S go the storm. World Club Challenge is on 1st march saturday morning 6 am melbourne time, do your self a favour and watch the match, there your team.
spiro zavos said | February 23rd 2008 @ 10:04am | Report comment
Up to the 1980s sports historians used to talk about the Barassi Line of Australian sport. The line was the borderline between Victoria and NSW, and ran on to the border line with South Australia, NSW, Queensland and the Northern Territory. Inside the NSW and Queensland borders the rugby codes, league (mainly) and union, predominated. To the south and west of NSW Queensland was AFL territory.
The Barassi Line was a sort of Maignot Line for the football codes until the AFL allowed a team, the Swans, to be started in Sydney. This lead to an AFL team in Brisbane, and league and union sides setting up teams in the AFL territories behind the Barassi Line.
The further expansion plans announced by the AFL into Western Sydney and into the Gold Coast are merely part of the original invasion launched with the creation of the Swans.
In penetrating the south and west of the Barassi Line, league and union have had some success. The Western Force, despite its poor record of off-the-field behaviour looks likes being a successful franchise. Perhaps West Australians are inured to bad behaviour by players following the Ben Cousins saga. The Melbourne Storm are a premiership-winning side, with a coach Craig Bellamy, who is the new Wayne Bennett of the code.
The main difficulty for leaque and union in making even more successful breaches of the Barassi Line is the fact that the media and the monied establishment in AFL territory behave disgracefully towards the northern codes. Matches are not covered. TV attention is meagre. This despite the fact that at the Telstra Dome the Wallabies-Lions test drew the biggest crowd ever there. And when a huge crowd turned up for the first Wallaby-All Blacks test at the MCG, it was noticeable that the members area was empty.
By contrast, the Swans and the Brisbane Lions get huge media coverage in the Sydney and Brisbane media.
Until this protectionist media system changes south of the Barassi Line, those of us living north of the Barassi Line will resent the high-handedness of the AFL officials dumping their game on us, demanding media time and space, while forcing the opposite reaction from their own sporting media.
The ’story’ of the AFL push into Sydney’s western suburbs has been sold as an attack on the rugby league heartland by the AFL spin doctors. In my view, it is more a reaction to the spread of football which will in time over-run AFL as Australia’s national football code, in the same way as gorse takes over a native pasture once it takes off.
oikee said | February 23rd 2008 @ 10:32am | Report comment
Spiro, like your comments, but league has dealt with this negative attutude for one hundred years, you only have to look at the code in england and france to see what we were up against, but we have survived and propered, and melbourne is the same towards other codes, no worries here, they are trying to protect there game, same as everyone else protects theirs, ireland will protect there game, aussie rules are getting there backs up, so now south africa is in there sights, good luck there, zulus fly high?
League is growing, even germany has started a nines tournament this year, england has finally trugged off the biase it has to deal with the media for the last hundred years, all this and france is slowly growing into a world force again, before the war and after they were world champions, league is moving forward at rapid growth worldwide,
a.f.l well, its a aussie game nothing more, they talk about there world cup, nobody cares, only expats, they have to much money to burn, once soccer 10 folds them what they going to do? get soccer to build there grounds bigger so they can play, please, the world wants cosy, all sports with small cosy grounds with cover will win, its a no brainer.
Westy said | February 23rd 2008 @ 3:10pm | Report comment
Spiro as someone who enjoys the battle for possession in rugby and beating or tackling man on man skills of rugbyleague I am to be honest sometimes saddened by the failure to understand the obviuos shared common heritage and shared skills.I can enjoy AFL but always acknowledge if it was not for the success of the breakaway Rugby League ccode in Sydney a rugby code tied to amateurism would have found it very difficult to cope with the Victorian professional game from 1908 until it itself turned praofessional.I understand Rugby fighting to keep League and even organised touch football out of private schools to protect its base but personally feel very uncomfortable when those same schools cuddle up and even open up to the middle class push of the AFL in Sydney. Sadly attitudes about league are too entrenched but from personal experience I can take them to a Western Bulldogs/ or Collingwood where every second word is f this and spitting off the field and a good fight are par for the course. There is still more than a residual connection between League and union and despite the fact there can be a healthy dose of defensive reverse classism by league I still have some fears that if league was to ever falter some in Rugby would not be as welcoming as i would like nor for that matter have any real infrastructure to deal with it, THis is not only a perception but a reality Rugby must address.
Midfielder said | February 23rd 2008 @ 3:33pm | Report comment
Spiro you make an excellent point about the melbourne media and other sports coverage. As I said a little earlier you get the feeling that much of the sports media in Melbourne consider their roll is to help build AFL as if they are all part of one big team.
oikee said | February 23rd 2008 @ 7:49pm | Report comment
They are midfielder, part of one big team, but what they have to understand is so are the other codes, Look the main issue is expanding, now we all want this, well to tell the truth, league is happy to have this many teams, but once you get talk about taking over, as aussie rules makes out it wants to do, then you have a fight, bring it on i say, but backdown, never, i would die for league, go to battle for it, and i am sure the other codes would do the same, but,
what we have to learn is pay our dues, in this i mean dont talk hard it does nobody any good, look at aussie rules expansion, there was no resistance to this game from sydney or brisbane, if you call a few people wining then this is not resistance, we need the game in our states, not that i care for it, but i think its good for players coming through in these areas?
Now, why do we have to have the battle of the codes, they all fit into our country, and all make money,
Some more than others i am sorry to say, but union is bouncing back, i never watch this game, but have watched 2 games because they have changed the rules a bit. This is good, league has changed rules for decades for its followers, and the public lke what they see, and aussie rules i dont watch, and will never watch until they stop this taking over oz crap.
We all love our own games, not one game is going to rule australia, one might grow, the others might shrink, but going into battle talk and taking over, you are on the wrong foot before you start. Grow, yes this is good, agravate, bad
Midfielder said | February 23rd 2008 @ 8:51pm | Report comment
Oikee, I agree but when one code declares war on the others you do start to worry. Roy Barassi was on Melbourne radio this week talking about a war they had to win whatever it takes, will IMO come back and bite AFL on the bum in time.
Football & league have worked out a good relationship of ground & cost shareing, and in time crowds as well if not already.
So it will be interesting, but nowhere near as smooth as they plan
oikee said | February 23rd 2008 @ 10:23pm | Report comment
The only difference between ron barassie and me is that he talks on radio, has a voice like laws and jones, i always declare war on the other codes, it means nothing, but he has the peoples ears, and this is what happens, people listen, and they think it is a war. There is no war, only greed, once people realise this the war will end, money, its all about money.
oikee said | February 24th 2008 @ 1:55pm | Report comment
Can give you some real facts now, league is going global, if you want to be part of the midnight express , get on it ,
Fact= Los- angeles americas heartland, aussie rule game 3000 year 2005 hugh jackman
Jacksonville= florida heartland, rugby league game 12,500 bulging at the sides, year 2008 Russell crowe
Dont believe the hype Barrasi tells you, the game is dead in the water, soccer is now the new football, rugby league is the new boutique sport sweeping the world, small but intence, origin rules australia for sport, bigger now than melbourne cup veiwing overseas, Dont let the a.f.l pull the wool over your eyes, all they think about is lining there own pockets, and melbourne, you are the suckers who are helping them.
oikee said | February 24th 2008 @ 2:02pm | Report comment
P.S rugby league does not make any money, it all goes back into devolopment, which is why it grows overseas, N.R.L does not profit from our game. We are small but are big in areas that count, charity and helping the underprivaliged, always have and always will. Now you know what your up against, aussie values N.R.L verse the corparate dollars as in A.F.L
Facts.
oikee said | February 24th 2008 @ 2:53pm | Report comment
Oh my GOd, now i have seen it all, i have just found out that you have played a game in dubai? What the?
Come on , what is happening to a.f.l ,,, look fair does grow the game in oz but taking a game to a arab country, look melbourne, even you can see this is stupid, think about the arabian built guys, they are not interested in a sport played by lanky giants, they are into rugby league, hard and feriocous men, who have lebanon expanding league in there country and out to other arab nations.? Someone needs to stand up to Barrasi and tell him to pull his head in or you will end up the laughing stock of the country, Africa zulus, now arabs, Talk about desparate, get him to win england, hehe or have a few expats play there and let him tell you we own england, and are going after france, hahahehe. WAke up to him. hes a greedy mongal.
Rodney said | February 24th 2008 @ 7:22pm | Report comment
I see clarkey talking the same crap again, if the RLWC is a joke, WTF is the Aussie Rules WC where the host nation doesn’t even play?
Hahahahaha
RL has held a WC since 1954, GB have won twice and Australia the rest, NZ have made the final and so has France on a few occasions, actually, France won the unofficial WC in 1951, rated the greatest international side of all time, they had over half a million people turn up to cheer them on when they got home, I have a pic of it, if you want to see it, go to League Unlimited and post, I’m sure someone will show you.
PNG has RL as their national sport, add all the Pac Islands together with NZ and PNG has more people, but Union is so big because of the Pac Islands and NZ huh?
Well RL is also played in the Pac Islands, have you ever watched a game of NRL, have you seen how many Islanders are playing, why shouldn’t they play for their home country in a WC?
Some of the Soccer teams picked their whole team from other comps to play in the WC, why can’t RL?
Argentina in Union picks nearly every player for their team from France because Argentina doesn’t have a proper domestic comp, yet no one says anything about these sports, but when RL does it, it called a joke, why is that?
These players play in Pro comps in Aus, NZ, England and France, who are you to say they are a joke?
I asked you to show me where AFL has a Pro or semi Pro comp outside Australia, or where there is a comp that plays a full season, you didn’t answer, well I don’t think you should talk about RL because you have no idea what you are talking about, you just spew out the same old garbage the Vic media and the Union media feed you.
If RL is such a joke, what is Cricket?
RL is played in more countries now than Cricket, i don’t see you giving them grief, did you happen to see the last Cricket WC?
What about Netball, did you see how small it was last year in NZ?
You don’t mention that either, you can bet the RLWC will be bigger than the Netball.
If you look at where the RLWC will be shown on TV (Google it), could you say the same for the 2008 AFLWC?
As for the AwFuL going into WS and the GC, bring it on, the awFuL will fall sooner or later, this will only help.
John Ryan said | February 24th 2008 @ 7:38pm | Report comment
Wonder what Clarkey will say about the Swans game its on page 78 of the Tele they played Port at the Homebush Stadium,and it was FREE which I suppose saved them giving away tickets and the massive crowd 1500,great stuff
oikee said | February 24th 2008 @ 8:22pm | Report comment
Let them expand, and let them fall, we are the a.f.l the greatest game of …..hold on the greatest game, now where have i heard that before,? doesn’t matter we are victoria and on top of the world, not the bottom, like everyone keeps telling us,
De de de, dum de dum, our 5 million people rule the world, ho hum,,,, and our comp rules america, yer,,, oh yer… i have mentioned that so it must be true,,, da da da lum diddle de dum, i smell something cooking, A.F.L world cup with no roots in any country but ours, but we own the world, thats what i have told the victoria people, so it must be true,,, lalala llala
Michael C said | February 25th 2008 @ 9:53am | Report comment
Who is ‘Clarkey’??
A few things here.
AFL is NOT ‘corporate’ - the money from the AFL goes back to A. the players, but, at a lesser rate of total revenue than the NRL. We found that out last year when Willie Mason et al were sent packing from NRL HQ after seeking a pay rise. B. (growing) the game. C. grass roots and community.
It’s a bit rich to claim some holy mandate about the half News Ltd owned NRL. You’ve been smoking something.
Spiro - the Barassi line. Yes, historically speaking. What of it? What’s that got to do with any of this now? It’s like saying the Melbourne Olympics are relevant to the conversations about Beijing this year - ancient history.
Rugby in WA is successful mainly due to a large ex-pat British and Sth African population - nowadays, especially Sth African. It’s doubtful that Rugby per se is so strong that A. 2 Super 14 franchise could be sustained or B. A 2nd attempt at a NRL franchise could be successful - - but, by all means - give it a go.
AFL - international.
Point 1 - the 3000 attendance in LA was actually sell out!!! And the reason the AFL haven’t bothered going back again was the lack of an appropriate venue. Interpret that as you will.
Point 2 - AFL DOES NOT hold a World Cup. That’s the point. The RL World Cup is the poor relation of world cups.
By defnition, the AFL ALMOST COULD - BUT DOESN’T - conduct a world cup. And correctly so, it would be a farce.
Point 3 - AFL matches overseas - a costly junket perhaps? Satisfy some sponsors perhaps? I’m not really sure exactly why - - but, they do it. 20 years ago I really have no idea, now, fair enough if you say, right, we play a game in the US, and give free tickets plus a couple for family and friends to every registered player in the US. THAT, I could comprehend. LIkewise a Euro game on that context. Thus far, the AFL is only spending a pittance of money in Sth Africa re. game development - and, most supporters of the ‘grass roots international movement’ are confused and bemused by the lack of AFL HQ action or support for USfooty in particular. AFter all, 300m Americans, just 0.1% of those is 300,000. Get 0.01% of Americans playing any particular game and that’s 30K participants.
btw - I checked out AMNRL.com, 10 teams listed, player number in the hundreds, no indication of junior development or competition. A 9 round season. Excellent work. USfooty oversaw over 300 odd games each of the last couple of years. It’s not much - but, it’s a start…..and, eminates from one little insignificant country only. Personally, I think it’s pretty cool to see how it develops. A whole lot cooler than just jumping on this English game called Rugby and a not vary far removed English originated variant called League - that when played O-S might be drawing, any number of ‘Rugby per se’ fans and ex-pats from x-number of countries.
But - certainly - the message loud and clear is A. because we are Australia ONLY - means we should just give up
B. the AFL should completely ignore any notion of expansion and withdraw support for clubs and leagues in ‘non traditional’ areas.
C. should cease concerning itself with money.
John Ryan - I went to my North Melb vs Brissie practice match on Friday evening at Princess Park, and we’d have been lucky to have 1500. Big deal. Absolutey practice match, stuff all people know they are on because you only know the schedule once your team is eliminated from the NAB cup. Now, we at North have low-mid 20K members already signed up 2008 - so, how significant is a dismal turn up to a meaningless practice match? We save our attendance for the real season - - - which, I’ve often noticed - NRL practice matches are often quite well attended - almost better than regular season games????? Are they free? cheaper?
— Netball conducts ‘World Championships’ - - a critical distinction to a World Cup marketing exercise. Good luck to them - the phrase ‘World Cup’ immediately brings to mind FIFA, RUWC and ICC WC.
Cricket played in less countries the RL??? I think you’re having a lend of us there. First and foremost, cricket has more at the top end. The list of 10 RL countries competing thins out awfully quickly. Cricket - ideally has about 10 fair dinkum competitors. And, cricket doesn’t benefit from an allied almost mirror code from which to draw players - - however, suddenly we saw Jon Davison playing for Canada, because his Aussie parents happened to be in Canada when he was born…..ah well.
Rodney - comparing Rugby League to Soccer?????? THat’s a good one. Look, if your players, locally developed, head to Europe for example, then the Socceroos need to draw almost their entire squad BACK from off-shore. However, forming a team predominantly around people whose only link to your land is via their parents or grand parents…….well, look, I’d love to represent Denmark in the footy IC, but, really, that would be a farce - - in my mind.
THE WAR -
Soccer declared ‘war’ by marketing themselves ‘Football’.
Superleague declared war on everyone.
AFL declared war by moving Sth Melbourne.
Did the AFL start it?
Surely to say that would be naive in the extreme. There’s always been a war bubbling away - - surely, that’s why the NRL crowd are so passionate about celebrating 1908 - - that was a watershed battle of the codes year. The on going war and antagonism between Union and League is akin to the anti Vietnam vets factions of the RSL in years past.
No war —- pigs rrrrr’s.
Soccer happily in bed with League??? YOu can believe that one if you want. Soccer is the greatest threat to League. Simply because League presently relies on soccer kids giving the game away in their teens. But - when that stops happening, the ‘talent pool’ dries up. The key is the ability to convert kids - but Rugby is that much further placed away from soccer that it is that much more difficult.
So - for now, facility sharing, that’s nice. You’re giving soccer a cheap and free ride effectively. THe grounds, the stadiums, that Rugby built, are being gifted to the FFA - - who, in return, will drive rugby out of professional existance in this country. Union is to be the first casualty.
And where is the FFA placing their franchises? Smack bang on the doorstep of the NRL - why? A. it’s cheap and easy - re. the facilities, B. to strangle the NRL dominance in key markets - - - and once that bubble has burst, those markets are actually more wide open than ever before. Suddenly you’ve broken the back of 100 years of continuity.
But - if NRL folk want to believe their own self spun spin about a happy union……good luck.
It’s WAR lads, but, seemingly, not as you know it.
btw - dunno where this notion of the AFL is all about money has come from - especially as being distinct from any other professional code.
midfielder said | February 25th 2008 @ 10:08am | Report comment
Just to add to this international think, ” parts ” of an article from the SMH, see the link at the end
I would have lost money if I had placed a bet on this outcome, but as I often say, let facts be your friend.
The grand final will be broadcast live to England for the second year in a row. Last year it out-rated all the other big Australian events shown on British pay TV - including the rugby league and AFL grand finals. Around Asia, the A-League is making even bigger waves.
Good crowds, good stadiums, and a weekly highlights program that is shown in 70 countries across North and Central America, Europe, Asia and Africa. Not a bad shop window to the world. And according to our globetrotting ambassador at large, Craig Johnston, the world is taking note.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/a-league/reality-continues-to-outdo-the-dream/2008/02/22/1203467387486.html
oikee said | February 25th 2008 @ 11:43am | Report comment
You amaze me Michael, see even you believe your own spin? this is the brainwashing that they do to you, happens in soccer too. I’ll point it out to you clearly so you understand, A.F.l has dollars, lots of it, now if you are not educated then this is what it means, they dont need any more than they have, fair does, so why are they going about oz and worrying about more teams, when the ones in melbourne are falling down?
No 2 yes it is owned by half news, this is where league suffers, on top of this it still does not neglect the people, now do you really think we would be no2 sport if we had the dollars, no,
right 3 dont even think that league has supporters from other codes, you are dreaming, we did not fight 100 years for nothing, you walk into the north of england and say that, you would not last 2 minutes. To top this off the barassi line is getting further is it not, hes still alive so still trying?
No4 the a.f.l does not hold a world cup because it cant, would be like watching paint dry, even if you had your expats, even league is not 100% sure who would win ours, pretty certain we hope, but if you ever watched earlier world cups, you would know we struggled to win them, even with the mighty mal meninga? Get your boss to sink the money into grass roots, yes africa sudan, big tall, and let it grow, blind freddy can see this?
No 5 yes we all want .000001 per cent of america , and yes i agree with you league has not abig comp, but then again it has only been there 10 years?
No 6 No one expects you to give up growing, grow, just remember that you need tall players mostly for your gaem, soccer and league, and rugby can take all types, this is what i am getting at, someone tell your boss that there is no reason to shout , we are taking over, what
oikee said | February 25th 2008 @ 11:56am | Report comment
Yes Yes midfeilder, we all know about soccer, what you think we are stupid or something, so what you are the number 1 sport throughout the world, me and michael dont watch it or follow your silly game, never have and never will, so get that up ya, now back to you micheal,
No 7 Yes in america we have a small comp, but we have only been there 10 years,No 8 Soccer is a summer sport and league competes nicely with soccer in england, if you look at the 2 big cities Manchester and Leeds we do quite nicely in these areas, and are growing, But soccer has one up on you lot in melbourne already, they are a summer sport and your tourists arrive around this time? and what are they going to see played? Soccer.
Lastly No 8 dont you realise that we have been at war for 100 years with rugby, we are not part or anything to do with their game, get your facts right before you make a comment?
Michael C said | February 25th 2008 @ 11:56am | Report comment
oikee -
You’d be surprised how much we agree perhaps.
btw - footy generally takes players between 175cm and 205cm with the odd exception either end. Used to be more common for a few more 165cm type ankle biters. Not many of them around anymore, aren’t given a go, which is a shame.
AFL pumps heaps of money back via Auskick and the like, and heaps into junior footy - the main gripe of many is ’senior level’ clubs - but, in truth, they have to be able to manage themselves better - and it’s amazing how many are paying players quite big money in country and metro regions. How then can they complain that the AFL doesn’ t throw an extra $1-2K their way. But - the AFL DOES assist in running seminars open to all on club management and grants and funding etc etc. Gotta teach people how to farm for themselves!!, not just supply grain in sacks.
—-
Is the AFL seeking to expand to make more money?
or seeking to expand to protect the code in NSW and QLD?
Is the money a certainty anyway?
Did Mike Fitzpatrick say too much?
Are people on the gravy train just protecting their ‘value’ to that train?
I’m not sure on all of those. People always try to make themselves appear more important than they really are. Adding zeroes to a pay check seems a good apparent ‘proof’.
Rodney said | February 25th 2008 @ 9:50pm | Report comment
Yet you think RL is not as big as AFL worldwide when say all your crap, can anyone in England get payed to play AFL?
What about France?
NZ?
Russia?
did you know, in 2005, Toulouse had a salary cap at 1.2 million Euros for a semi pro RL team?
Did you know, that same team is trying to get into SL next year?
50 grand to a big sports star a year is nothing, but where outside Australia can any AFL player get that?
Thats in France Clarkey, what about the ESL?
How much do you think Trent Barret is on considering he gets more to play over there than here, any AFL player get that money?
NO, so stop talking shit.
Michael C said | February 26th 2008 @ 10:28am | Report comment
Rodney -
“Yet you think RL is not as big as AFL worldwide when say all your crap, can anyone in England get payed to play AFL?”
WHERE DID I SAY THAT?
All I pointed out was that I can pick out a few countries where the apparent wonderful internationalisation of RL is on a par or less than that of AFL (which - is not actively being ‘internationalised’ - by the AFL via funding - anywhere other than Sth Africa). I certainly never said anything about anywhere but Australia for the existance of pro-leagues. I do know that in England, some folk even 10 yrs ago could score 30K or so to be player-coach - but, that’s hardly pro-league salary caps or anything like that. That’s more akin to country league, score a token job for the publican and played CHF for the local team.
RL - one understands, originated in England. RL - one understands, in many cases where the more international Union exists - that one is not surprised to find RL or at least players willing and able to fly an RL banner to represent their country at the RLWC. That’s fine, good luck to them.
THe irony of the Rugby codes is they ARE NOT THAT DIFFERENT - really they aren’t. And granted, Russia is one of the few countries where “Rugby League” might be referred to as “Rugby”. Just a shame the Russians ARE NOT coming to the 2008 RLWC.
And again, sad to see the demise of the poorly (in Sydney, but pretty well in Brissie) supported Anzac test. But, really, SoO is the pinnacle for RL in Australia. The internationals are a minor distraction, often out of season - and really only draw greater attention to the better internationals provided by Union vs other Sth Hemisphere teams. The international dimension of League - to AFL people is un-necessary. To League people though, it probably IS seen as necessary to try to compete with Union and Soccer.
The NRL is so interesting in that respect - they are the Germans fighting on too many fronts. Trying to compete with the AFL as a ‘national club competition’ and also sustain the SoO and also fight soccer and Union on the National Team perspective. It’s a lot of fighting. I sometimes wonder just what their core business is?
W Warambeal said | February 26th 2008 @ 1:01pm | Report comment
The reason Russia aren’t coming to the RLWC is because they didn’t qualify. The number of entrants has been reduced to 10 from I think 16.
If the Anzac RL Tests are to be abandoned it doesn’t mean that the ARL’s commitment to international games has lessened. If anything their is the realization that this aspect should be improved. Witness the success of the Tri-nations RL series at the end of 2006. It is hoped the same series is to be repeated in the northern hemisphere at the end of 2009 after this year’s WC.
Michael C - you vastly overstat union’s global reach & the Wallaby’s following in Australia. This year’s ANZAC Test out rated the best ratings the Wallabies received by a good margin. Last year when their was revenge to be had the Kangaroo v Kiwi RL got nearly twice the ratings that the best Bledisloe Test got. The Kangaroos are Australia’s preferred rugby team of either code. Their problem is that they don’t play that often & have dominated the opposition for so long.
Anyway here’s an extract from an article about the viewing audience of the union WC:
“…While other sports broadcasts have claimed audiences of more than one billion, Alavy said, these numbers are often exaggerated. To play up the popularity of an event for would-be sponsors, audience numbers are sometimes inflated by including viewers like those who tune in to highlight shows, Alavy said.
Sometimes event organizers cite the potential worldwide viewership - that is, adding up the total number of households that can tune in. Because of the spread of digital television systems offering hundreds of channels, that total is growing all the time.
Yet only a handful of elite competitions truly attract global audiences. The final match of one of the biggest international sporting events last year, the Rugby World Cup, drew only 33 million viewers globally, according to Initiative.
While that was enough for fourth place, it was less than half the audience for the No. 2 and No. 3 events, the Brazilian Grand Prix and the Champions League final.
By comparison, the final match of the 2006 World Cup in Germany, for instance, drew an average live audience of 260 million; the final of the Euro 2004 soccer tournament attracted 161 million viewers.
For multinational marketers, the question of which sporting events to sponsor has grown in importance, amid concern about the declining effectiveness of traditional advertising. Sponsorship - gaining the right to display a logo in a stadium, for example - can create widespread exposure for a brand hoping to reach new audiences, and spending on this form of marketing is growing faster than outlays on traditional advertising.
Meanwhile, live viewing of sporting events helps advertisers get around the problem of ad-skipping technology like digital video recorders, because viewers cannot fast-forward through commercials.
The actual number of people watching sporting events live is growing slowly, if at all, according to the Initiative numbers, which are compiled from official audience measurement agencies in 54 countries, representing more than 90 percent of worldwide ad spending…”
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/01/04/business/tvsport07.php
Michael C said | February 26th 2008 @ 1:29pm | Report comment
W Warambeal -
cheers,
Hey, I’m from Victoria, it’s all just Rugby to me.
And the sooner they re-unite the better from my perspective - well, for them. For soccer and footy (in Australia - I don’t care about the rest of the world) - the longer they take, then, all the better.
Question,
how many people do you know who
A. love BOTH rugby codes
B. hate one and love the other
C. don’t like either
I think of my father inlaw, a kiwi who played RU and RL and now happily watches both, and also watches footy, and soccer, and cricket…….hmmm, I’m starting to think he’s just a TV sports tragic. For him though, he doesn’t HATE codes - - and it sometimes seems to me the people that choose to ‘hate’ are - in doing so - simply displaying their own ignorance.
I don’t hate individual codes - but, I can dislike certain rules, interpretations, aspects etc. But - I recognise that the differences make games what they are.