By Michael C
February 26th 2008 @ 2:16am
Loading ...Move the AFL for the Soccer World Cup? Bugger off!
Once again, Jeff Kennett – who has held a ‘position’ with a soccer body previously – has opened his trap and urged the AFL to role over for soccer should Australia ‘win’ the 2018 World Cup.
Well, firstly, no need to worry. We won’t ‘win’ them. I doubt it anyway. FIFA has scrapped the rotation policy, and I wonder why? But after 2010 in South Africa and 2014 in Brazil, 2018 will be 12 years since a European hosting of the event; 2022 would be 16 years.
Wanna make a bet that 2018 won’t see the World Cup back in the cradle of FIFA and soccer — Europe?
But if the FFA expects AFL and the NRL to make way, how about instead the FFA display just how wonderful they and their game is by:
1. Raising their own $30-40 million rather than making the tax payers pay just to apply. How hard is it to put together a powerpoint? I want a consultancy on that gig!
2. Building soccer’s own venues so as to not have to bludge off the ones that football, rugby and cricket have ‘built’ for this country over 100-150 years of loyal service.
3. Play the tournament either instead of the HAL (surely that would be a more easily moved competition that the FFA has control of) or show how mature and self confident soccer is that it has no problems about sharing a sporting landscape.
I’d love 20 million overseas visitors passing through Melbourne during the footy season and perhaps dropping in to sample Australian Football. What better way to showcase Australia, because, really, you’d hardly invite them to Australia and force them to drink Carlsberg, eat McDonalds, drive Hyundais and wear Reebok now, would you?
And yes, I’m ready for the line: ‘It’s the biggest sporting event in the world’ and ‘you’re too myopic to see’, and so on.
Actually, I’d love the biggest sporting event to come to town. I’d go, as a theatre goer. I loved when the RWC came to Melbourne, the great atmosphere of Melbourne Cup ‘extended weekend’, we had the Australia vs Ireland International Rules hybrid game, which drew 60 thousand people to the MCG.
So what has FIFA got to be afraid of if other sports continue? Because, as we know, they are the biggest show on earth.
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LK said | February 26th 2008 @ 10:02am | Report comment
I’m concerned for you, Michael. Very concerned.
Last week in blog correspondence a “Michael C” passionately argued the government under funds AFL, and in particular taxpayers should be stumping up for larger stadia in WA.
Today on this blog “Michael C” passionately argues taxpayers shouldn’t fund stadia for football.
Surely no person can hold such contradictory views and I’m worried that your identity has been stolen.
Michael C said | February 26th 2008 @ 10:52am | Report comment
LK –
What are you doing seeking consistancy and looking at issues in a broader perspective??? Who are you to be so wise in the ways of the world outside the silo of a single issue!!!!
The stadia comment – nothing said about tax payers and soccer WC stadia. I take offense the Soccer might desire the MCG vacated during the footy season. The MCG is there because of footy and cricket and the Olympics (and C’wealth games) – with the latter 2 being 1 off events. By far the greatest use and justification for the venue is footy (despite being run by the MCC – but that’s a whole other complex issue). My point is that soccer is getting ahead of itself if they plan to insist venues be vacated for it – especially if they don’t offer suitable compensation. Otherwise, build your own venues (engaging what ever mix of self funding, private funds and govt funds). The old VFL built Waverley, and put $30M into Docklands. The ground will revert to total AFL ownership – perhaps Aust hosting the WC had better get in before that happens – I’d love to see FFA say….um, can we ask you to get off your own ground???
Look – I’m less concerned about those govt funds than the broader issue of everyone having to move aside. However, those funds are, by what odds, likely to be completely thrown down the drain…..but, then, how much does an Olympic bid cost??? And Les Murray, on FIFA’s Ethics committee (is that an oxymoron?) reckons we might get to 2nd favouratism, behind England. Is that worth the spend? Maybe.
We have the debate in Melbourne presently about Bernie Eccleston trying to squeeze more money for his travelling roadshow/circus – - and, if the govt subsidises the F1 GP by $30M, of $60M, is that money well spent? And, quite probably it is. Quite probably $60M tourism advertising would have a far lesser impact than that of Melb being on the F1 GP circuit.
My only point for the soccer folk who get ahead of themselves sometimes is that soccer has been in this country a long time, not just 3 years of the HAL. Soccer has thus far not built much for itself. It ran itself down to such a degree that the Fed Govt was forced to rescue and restructure it. And now, possible delusions of grandeur – soccer want’s more hand out after the Fed Govt doubled their hand out already compared to the Howard promise.
I just hope – if it all works out – that the soccer community remembers where it all came from and how much of a boost up this great world game needed in a backwater like Australia.
btw – I saw recently a story about Viduka’s old club in North Suburban Melbourne, kids can’t play on the ground, needs watering etc. Costs too much etc. And, I’m thinking, fat lot of good Viduka on the world stage is – surely, if he is going to do anything, he’d gift $20K to his old club to stick in some water tanks or something. What good is he doing? Soccer seems too much about being a wonderful system of syphoning money and directing it straight to the top.
LK said | February 26th 2008 @ 12:45pm | Report comment
Ok, I think I get it. The AFL shouldn’t move from the MCG because:
a) it was a govt funded stadium for cricket, AFL and – ahem – one off events
b) it is run by a cricket council
c) AFL has always played there.
It is probably a moot point. FIFA may not like playing games there due to its oval proportions. Can’t the AFL stage all MCG games at the stadium they own? Or is it the principle of AFL having to postpone or re-schedule mid season games (rather than the venues) that upsets you?
It is a lot of money for a potential failed bid. If they do fail, do they blow more moolah bidding for 2022?
Speaking of directing money straight to the top of a sport – didn’t the AFL recently propose a second Sydney team? This issue has been dealt with on this site ad nauseam, but shouldn’t they first put the money into Auskick etc then announce a team when there is a mass of support?
Michael C said | February 26th 2008 @ 1:18pm | Report comment
LK -
That’s effectively it.
I gather the Berlin Olympic stadium is not perfect for soccer – but it sufficed for the 2006 WC. The MCG would be a desired venue unless someone plans to build a few more 100K venues.
The thing is that FIFA dictates the timing to NOT clash with their own leagues – and it wouldn’t clash with the HAL – - however, obviously have no compunction about clashing with anybody else. That’s arrogance, bullying and they invariably seem to get away with it. And, I don’t know really why they’d be concerned?
Keep mindful the MCC funded the ~$130million for the ‘92 Great Southern Grandstand, and most of the ~$434mill for the new development. The MCC was still servicing about $85mill in debt when they announced the more recent redevelopment. The Vic State Govt put in $77mill to the project, and rejected a very much IR strings attached $90mill offer from the Howard ‘regime’.
The MCC generates funds from users of the venue and ~$20mill p/a from members, a certain amount via membership waiting list nomination fees etc. And, obviously, as the biggest user of the ground over it’s history, the VFL and now AFL has played a significant role in providing the value proposition for the stadium. And, maybe once every 4 years there might be a socceroos game of note, and a Wallabies game or whatever – many of which now are played at Docklands – likewise concerts, very few anymore at the ‘G – although the Police were there recently. And so, it is still pivotal for the MCG to retain a very tight relationship with the AFL.
It is poor form then for anyone to walk up expecting this relationship to bend over effectively – given that the FIFA WC would be a one off and by that time, the new Vic rectangular stadium would be well established (increased in capacity to cater to 40K????, that’s another question about whether it’s a potential white elephant). Btw – I still resent Simon Hill stating ‘This is a record football crowd for this ground’. When, the record football crowd is 121K for Carl v Coll 1970 GF. What he MEANT to say was “This is a record soccer crowd for the ground”……poor fellow, getting confused, but, misleading the viewing public.
The reality is, that the FFA is short on for Rectangular stadia able to hold 40K. So – we know the Govt would – should the bid succeed – would have to build and renovate all these venues. And, of course, for on-going usage so as to not be white elephants – well, soccer assumes that hosting the WC will promote it to number 1 in Australia.
[We know the NRL don't draw the crowds other than in QLD. Soccer has already too many regional sides for whom 40K venues would be lucky to be half full most of the time. So - Govts would effectively be asked to give soccer the biggest free kick ever seen for a sport in this country - and, on the back of just what? 1 WC qualification in 32 years and a new 'non-ethnic' league that draws about 60-70K specatators a week across the entire country AND NZ that's been running for 3 seasons and has a crowd average of around 15K].
In any case the NRL and AFL would be mad, absolutely bonkers – to stand aside and let them in.
Millster said | February 26th 2008 @ 1:36pm | Report comment
MC – as you know I hold you in goodwill, and have myself apologised for a few over-the-top pro-football rants to you. But, if you don’t mind me saying so, it is now your turn to apologise for this overly hysterical, insecure posting.
A few points in no particular order.
1. Althetics and most Olympic sports are (outside the Olympics themselves) poorly attended and very heavily subsidised in a whole variety of ways. However, in recognition of the unique nature of the Olympic Games, both Melbourne (1956) and Sydney (2000) put on special arrangements, changed other events, and made the best venues available. The World Cup is an even bigger project and event. Why would the same not apply? That’s not to say that other sports can’t continue – and yes I agree with sharing Aussie culture including AFL with our visitors – but surely they have to accept some degree of accommodation for such a major event. Anything short of that would be downright churlish.
2. Telstra Dome aside, the MCG, SCG and other ovals on which AFL is played are in fact cricket ovals (and yes I do give you credit for realising this about the MCG in your second posting). Sure AFL is a major tenant. But it absolutely CANNOT run the line that it morally owns those grounds which would be World Cup venues. In any case, outside of the MCG, TD and perhaps Subi Oval (unless Perth finally gets it’s act together with a decent stadium) I think it’s more an issue for the venues of the Rugby codes – SFS, Sydney Olympic Stadium, Suncorp, Canberra, etc.
3. My point 3 is that I don’t understand your point 3. Can you please clarify. Not trying to be a smartarse here.
4. Where is your ambition mate? You would well know that some things take a few attempts before success arrives, and this bid may well be a first phase in a longer term plan. And what a national project. In the industry that I work in, putting up $20-50mill for such an endeavour is peanuts. Hell, that amount wouldn’t even buy the undercarriage on a single one of the possible Aussie squadron of F22 fighter planes that are making headlines in today’s press. I agree that 2018 will probably end up in Europe. But just to signal to FIFA that we are a serious, credible, well credentialled force is worth every cent and drop of sweat. More broadly, for all our so-called national ‘can-do’, I think we as a country are gutless wonders when it comes to major projects of any sort(not only sporting). Why not start redressing that…
5. As a mitigator to the above, why are you so scared of what is just currently a press release and some news print? By 2011 (the planned announcement date) there will have been another World Cup, and 3-4 more seasons of HAL. Either ’soccer’ as you put it will have crashed and burned which means this will all go away, or it will continue it’s growth and this project will make sense. We’re not taking about a finishing line that is tomorrow.
In closing, sorry but I do think you are myopic. This issue extends well beyond little old AFL’s place in the world (which seems to be Blacktown at the moment) and I say that with no disrespect to the game which I don’t mind. But who is getting ahead of themselves in putting a ridiculous argument that the indigenous sport, not even nationally followed, in a relatively minor country, should stand in the way of one of the world’s leading events?
And to demonstrate that I am not just talking from a one-eyed soccer-head point of view, if AFL was a world game played in 200+ countries and with a TV audience for it’s final of 2.5bn+ people, and with far-reaching political and sociological ramifications, I would be arguing just the same things for it too.
PS: Surely an AFL that had ‘no problems sharing a sporting landscape’ would pick up and run a couple of seasons in, say, Germany, Brazil, Japan, Russia, Tunisia… after all, if you expect HAL to play in winter, against principles of competitive advantage (and incidentally forcing it to compete more directly against your beloved AFL), then surely AFL and all it’s supposed intrinsic value should also be judged by putting it outside of it’s geographic/seasonal/commercial comfort zone and seeing just how well it fares.
Oh and PPS on the Viduka thing: Should Ben Cousins hold off on a few lines of coke and put the $$ back into say AFL player development in WA’s indigenous communities? Let’s not hold individuals – however good or bad – responsible for infrastructure that should be developed by clubs and/or communities.
Benny said | February 26th 2008 @ 1:49pm | Report comment
Michael C
Simon Hill did not get it wrong, because football = soccer. You know that is what he meant and I am sure you also know that (the US aside) football/soccer is known throughout the world as “football”. FFA is the Football Federation of Australia. The term soccer in Australia will eventually die out.
Going forward this is how I see the naming of each code:-
Football/Soccer – called football
Australian Rules Football – called AFL
Rugby League Football – called League
Rugby Union Football – called Rugby
AFL/League will also be colloquially called ‘footy’ by the average punter/fan. Leaguies will generally call rugby – union.
Michael C said | February 26th 2008 @ 2:27pm | Report comment
Millster -
cheers – I deliberately chose a slightly hysterical rant delivery – to be a little provocative. If I’ve gone too far over the top – I apologise. However – I stress – I’d love to see Australia get the event. But – not at all costs.
RE 1. athletics etc, I’ve long decried their over funding – especially in the lead up to Olympics. The way we effectively ‘buy’ medals to make the general populous feel good about themselves – and give the elected leaders some good smiling photo ops – - I find just barely more tolerable than the old days of the East Germans all being employed in the military and therefore, we knew, being effectively full time paid athletes in a supposedly more amateur era. At any rate – certain really, really, minor and in some cases very ‘elite’ sports only exist because they are part of the IOC. The AOC traditionally is more powerful in Australia than is FIFA. Therefore, the AFL got whacked by the Govt with the urging of the AOC to support the IOC WADA code that FIFA themselves weren’t going to sign up to for another 2 years thereafter (and even then with strings attached). So – I recognise this battle for supremacy and that the AFL is small fry in the middle not aligned with either. Anyway – the IOC knows that many of these ‘fringe’ sports that fill out the calender would struggle for crowds if the Olympics weren’t the ONLY game on in town.
Re 2. certainly, there is a lack of rectangular 40K venues, let alone decent 60-80K venues. I doubt that Govts under pressure over water, climate change, health, indigenous affairs etc will want to build more venues than absolutely necessary. Especially given that at present, there’s no reason to believe that the rectangle codes will NEED that many such large venues. There’s no proof yet. The AFL is still the most regular large ground filler in the country – on ovals, probably followed by cricket – obviously also on ovals. So – that would be an issue I reckon on just how loose the purse strings would become. Obviously as well, ovals tend to have a bit of a camber that soccer detests.
Re 3. If soccer schedules the FIFA WC to NOT interrupt their own tournaments, leagues etc – - then, it’s a bit rich to expect other codes to be interrupted. THat’s blatant hypocrisy. And if the AUst Govt were to attempt to ‘force’ the AFL and NRL to make way – that would be something requiring of an awful lot of compensation. Does FIFA pay compensation? Put that one to Les Murray on the ethics committee.
Re. 4 & 5 – I don’t care whether FIFA take us seriously or not. Get the Socceroos winning in the Asian Cup might be a start. I heard Les on SEN last night, and he was ‘over’ a lot of the VIctim Australia whinging that has happened in the past. To me, it just seems like shooting for the stars in a VW beetle…….I reckon the FFA is far, far better getting it’s house a little more in order. Showing that after 10 years the HAL and FFA haven’t shot themselves in the foot. And this is one of those things I think of from the funding and grants application perspective. The track record of soccer in Australia is one of instability and unsustainability. You wouldn’t seriously then be granted huge amounts of money, just for a ‘big’. I am just curious about the Rudd agenda on this topic however.
I’d sooner Australia proove itself NOT a gutless wonder by many other means than simply applying for hosting a soccer tournament. I can see why it means a lot for South Africa. But – we aren’t short of ‘unified’ sports/infrastructure etc. It is a WANT – not a NEED. But – that said, if the MCG got listed as a FIFA WC final venue – then, the MCC would probably triple it’s annual earn on guided tours.
Let’s imagine Baseball Australia wants to host the World Series. However, we need lots of new venues and cricket and the HAL will have to stop to make way. Get real!!!!! Sort it out yourselves.
I thought soccer WAS a winter sport? Although, I did notice Sepp Blatter float an idea of making it a summer sport because it might be more attractive. That doesn’t seem to have caught on yet.
btw – soccer is a global commodity. AFL is a sigle nation commodity. Soccer is far more able to look after itself. However, should AFL seek to expand O-S – and I really doubt it professionally – it would be as a cute little niche rather than a full on competitor. The best I could ever expect is a Nrth American regional level and Euro international level semi-pro league type structure. Certainly not individual country/city pro leagues. But – who knows. Thinking about a 20+ milllion Aust population compared to European or Nth American continental populations – the scale and scope is all vastly different. And makes all the more insignificant in one respect a few hundred competitors here and there. But, as Paul Kelly sings, “From little things, big things grow”.
onside said | February 26th 2008 @ 2:43pm | Report comment
Michael C , chill mate, it wont happen .By the time the MCG is needed to host a FIFA world cup final,the ice
caps will have melted just enough to put the MCG under water,.and the final will be played in Fyshwick .
Michael C said | February 26th 2008 @ 2:46pm | Report comment
Benny, Benny, Benny
Remember, Soccer is the Brits OWN term of ‘affection’ for ASSOCIATION FOOTBALL.
Soccer is widely used in Canada, New Zealand, USA, Australia, and is interchangeably used in Britian itself. Gee – does that cover most the English speaking world??
“FOOTBALL”
we have American Football, (colloq. “Grid Iron”), Canadian Football, Gaelic Football, Australian Football (colloq. ‘Aussie Rules’, ‘Footy’), Rugby Football Union, Rugby League and Association Football.
Now, just because the good people of Liberia might only be family with one code of football, and therefore when THEY refer to ‘Football’, they mean ‘Association Football’ – then, I don’t see why I, in the worlds most crowded and competitive football market should copy they?!?!?!!?
This is a silly argument, the obvious analogy being that of beer. If you go into a pub anywhere in the world, ask for a ‘beer’ and see what you get offered. I doubt you’ll get offered the same ‘brand of beer’ everywhere in the world. And, if you want one in particular – then, to avoid ambiguity, you provide sufficient information to make yourself clear and understood.
Back to Simon Hill – he comes from England, lives in Sydney and is a soccer fundamentalist. I understand his ignorance. However, as a guest in such a grand and significant venue – he should be a little more aware of it’s history, and a little more respectful via his phrasing. Perhaps he didn’t mean to cause offence – I somehow feel that he might have been a little deliberatly mischevious – if not, then just ignorant. Either way – I don’t rate him. (or, am I getting my own back on behalf of Trevor Grant who in my mind didn’t say anything that every 2nd soccer fan might not say themselves). At any rate, in making such a statement, I think he needed to provide a little ‘qualification’ to his claim.
Going forward –
well, firstly, Fairfax media still has to convince News Ltd accross the board that soccer should be labelled ‘football’. It might happen. It seems a Sydney based movement trying to dictate to the entire country. Personally I hope we can keep Australia from just blindly following, and ensure that local ‘house rules’ apply, including to linguistics.
secondly – the AFL and Australian footballers throughout the country play the game based on the publication “The Laws of AUstralian Football”.
I think, in the Australian context, there’s a fair claim already on ‘Football’. So – join with the AFL and Aust football community as we celebrate 150 years of organised football in this country. We’re, after all, all one big happy family – the football family.
(by the way, original rules of soccer – London FA 1863:
4. A goal shall be won when the ball passes between the goal-posts or over the space between the goal-posts (at whatever height), not being thrown, knocked on, or carried.
8. If a player makes a fair catch, he shall be entitled to a free kick, providing he claims it by making a mark with his heel at once; and in order to take such a kick he may go back as far as he pleases, and no player on the opposite side shall advance beyond his mark until he has kicked.
Gee, where would you go to see rules such as these today?
Westy said | February 26th 2008 @ 3:07pm | Report comment
Dear me this is just indicative of the over hype typical of the AFL. especially at present. Where I live it ain”t the national game. Northern NSW, GOLD COAST, BRISBANE , SYDNEY etc. We count people here not geographic dispersion. It is not a bad game. But it is not monolithic. I am getting sick of some media expecting the same sycophantic and protected treatment the AFL gets in Victoria in other areas..I like a media that gives good and viable exposure to games that have a solid market presence. Despite witnessing great crowds at a rugby test in Melbourne the next day it was hard to find it in the Herald Sun. The World Cup is a world event. The Sports predominantly affected by the Sydney Olympics moved out of the way for a world class premier event. They will do so again. The sport that squeals the loudest has the most to fear. I saw the A league grand final. Of the 28 players used all would be effective AFL players. As Michael has himself acknowledged some League and Union body shapes are not found in AFL. In league or Union of the 30 or so players used only about 12 would be useful AFL players. The AFL is acutely conscious junior elite football/soccer players are a much more player for player direct fit.They know in the long term who is their threat. IF football succeeds in providing not only an overseas pathway but God forbid a viable national pathwaythose kids in Western Sydney will not be playing AFL. League and Union will survive but the AFL is not entrenched like Gridiron in every state and college in the U. S .It is not a question of survival for the Afl They must be Dominant otherwise they have failed accordind to their own marketing strategy of declaring WAR on other codes. I do not like their markreting in Western Sydney for instance. It is largely ethnically based and economically exclusive . whether consciously or unconsciously. This is especially so with their scolarship programme.IT is very much a middle class push .I took some islander boys to an Auskick/ Aussie rules program to improve their kicking. The instructor/s were good except quite A few of the parents asked if they were REALLY going to play aussie rules or that they had come there to get away from boys of that size. Cannot wait until the Mt Druit boys play Mosman in AFL. THey will then have to find another sport. .I can already here the squeels. Are you sure there not men. The AFl has had plans to actually play a second team in Sydney for over a decade for 2015 . The recent news is just hype , with Football it runs deeper. When Melbourne Victory made the football grand final telsra dome 55000 was sold out in hours. I tried to get a ticket!THis club then had a losing year but still held a 30000 home average . You see Another football team in Melbourne will be very successful. It is the only code that really competes for juniors in Afl”s home market. This is the real issue.
Michael C said | February 26th 2008 @ 3:25pm | Report comment
A little off topic by the end, but….
You were more likely to find NRL coverage in News Ltd Herald sun than Fairfax Age!! WHat, are you talking about circa 1996 or something?? Back before Superleague had settled down and News Ltd was firmly entrenched? ACtaully, I went to the SoO at TD 1.5 years ago – a couple of Newie boys who, and a couple non-hardened AFL types. That only got interesting in the last 10 minutes. Up to then, stuff all sense of anticipation that something might happen. (I think I’ve realised that in Aust Footy we want a sense that something might happen any time, and if the game is over with 10 mins to go and we’re losing then that’s our chance to get out of the carpark – where as soccer and rugby seem often that less is likely to happen in the first 70-80 mins than is anticipated for the last 10 mins – - in general – - and I recognise the generalisation of the comment, more just a little observation – so please don’t debate it)
MVFC had a 26K home average this year – largely in part because the FFA stuffed up the fixture, giving Ade Utd 2 home hostings of MVFC in first 8 rounds and making the Vics wait for a GF replay until about Rnd 15 or something. By then, the chances for another 40-50K were lost. Likewise, not scheduling the MV vs SFC the week earlier over the Melb Cup ‘extended weekend’ – missed another 50K there. silly, silly scheduling.
But – yes, MVFC, 22K members, best crowds in the HAL. WIns the GF, same year that Storm wins the GF, and all while AFL has record crowds and membership. We aren’t too worried. So don’t worry too much for us!!
The HAL GF,…..those boys would need a bit more fitness over a larger field and a little more meat on their bones…….
remember, some ‘body type’ is ’sculpted’ to need. We aren’t always talking different gene pools, we’re often talking sports specific conditioning. Coming through juniors one always came across kids who were built like men. They, history often told us, would be the ‘peaked too soon’ stories. Islander kids, a different story – as that is a gene pool issue.
Soccer kids transition far, far better to Aust footy than to the Rugby codes, and transition better FROM soccer to Aust Footy than do Rugby kids to Aust Footy. So long as Aust Footy survives, then, lot’s of NSW and QLD kids playing soccer instead of Rugby isn’t that bad a thing. Might actually be a good thing, the main thing is to have enough of them ALSO playing basketball rather than indoor soccer! Even touch rugby is good, that’s a game about NOT getting tackled – which is part of the flaw in the field Rugby ‘instinct’ when transitioning to Aust Footy.
cheers.
Michael C said | February 26th 2008 @ 3:40pm | Report comment
onside -
bewdiful.
actually, when the MCG is underwater, the stands protruding above the water will ensure a superb rowing facility.
Millster said | February 26th 2008 @ 4:45pm | Report comment
…and to continue that thread, the only remaining VIC teams would be the Dangenong Rangers and the Macedon Monsters, that is unless AFL becomes an aquatic sport. Which is not at all unlikely given how much tinkering with the rules occurs in that game…
Michael C said | February 26th 2008 @ 5:12pm | Report comment
Millster -
ah, and the Southbank Scorpions playing out of Eureka Tower/Isle.
actually, the irony the other day, a young Footscray (western bulldogs) player gets stung by a stingray in the bay,
…he is a first year player recruited from the Dandenong Stingrays…..
…at which point, one might imagine that teammate recruited from East Fremantle Sharks would be keeping well clear of the waters……
cheers.
Dave said | February 26th 2008 @ 5:54pm | Report comment
I think Michael C has a reasonable point. I mean we have had the Rugby Union World Cup in Australia and apparently this year the Rugby League World Cup??? Now it is only right that if we are to have a disruption to the AFL season due to the real World Cup coming to Oz then there should be some pay off for the AFL. I know, why dont we postpone the HAL so the AFL can have their World Cup…i reckon about about 10 minutes should do it (when the AFL make the phone call to the Gaelic Association and are told to p… off as the Irish dont want to get beaten up again). Therefore instead of kicking off next seasons HAL at 7.30 on a Friday in August wait until 8pm…the AFLs World Cup will be well and truly over by then.
Benny said | February 26th 2008 @ 6:03pm | Report comment
Michael C – not a bad comeback mate but I think you were having a lend when saying Brits use the word football and soccer interchangeably!!! Non-English speaking countries I have been to when locals were translating to English always referred to soccer as football. Anyway lets agree to disagree
Midfielder said | February 26th 2008 @ 6:06pm | Report comment
MC
I think you understand the power of the world cup to a much greater extent than you say. Its not giving up the grounds for the nations good over four weeks that concerns you but the impact of the event, first the six or so years led into the WC, the matches Australia will have against very high quality teams, and finally the WC itself.
It could even smash the Melbourne media mafia, Peter Fiz in a rugby context made very similar noises to yours about the WC, but with a union fear.
What I find interesting about the AFL (apart from the game itseld) is the AFL decision to declare war on all codes as a way of being there and as a major sport in 30 years. Union is lost and will need all of ONeil’s skills to build from the grass roots, union has have had a top down approach for years, with yes men underneath them to say all is find when it is not at the park level, and without park and grassroots to support it union will struggle.
League, has entered whether by accident or choice a defacto sharing arragement with football of grounds and relationships are forming pertaining to crowd sharing as well. So co-operation and lets grow together.
AFL is the head on all out war.
Will be interesting to see who’s response works better in the long term.
stamarocks said | February 26th 2008 @ 8:57pm | Report comment
Why is that AFL journo’s keep writing about Football? Is it because you find the round ball code more interesting? I don’t blame you guys, after all I can see why because eventually you will have to become Football journalist because that’s all people will care about in about 10 years, so I guess it’s good practice if you start now. The AFL trying to expand on the Gold Coast and Western Sydney, you have no chance, Australia has more chance of hosting the World Cup in 2018. Western Sydney is full of ethnics and they love football and their league. Do you really think Croatian, Italian and Greeks are going to switch to AF?. Maybe those born in Melbourne but not in western Sydney. The AFL is trying to wedge the other codes with this expansion idea and if the only reason given is to stop Football instead of looking after your own house, then you will fail.
Football has room to grow so much in this country, the A-League players are some of the lowest paid footballers in the world yet the atmosphere crowd figures and tv ratings are over and above expectations. When the next TV deal is made we will get more money better players and better coaches.
And if you want help writing articles about football there is a phrase that a lot Football journo’s have been using lately and it’s
“smell the fear”
Enjoy the AFL season but just keep a thought in your mind while you are watching 80 point blow outs at your beloved MCG that Football has awoken and can smell the fear of the other codes.
Midfielder said | February 26th 2008 @ 10:29pm | Report comment
Stamarocks ……….well said and long suspected myself.
Buts what is even funnier is the way they seem to see the whole thing as a war, and keep on the attack, with hype, half truths, etc…………but when it all starts unravil it will be fun to watch. The people I feel sorry for are those rusted AFL hardcores in Mexico who have placed their faith in a management team that will realise to late they were on the wrong track.
westy said | February 26th 2008 @ 11:18pm | Report comment
michael .. The AFL today has declared its support for Australia’s world cup bid. So what are you on about.Have you done this to merely provoke the natives?. Do not lose credibility!
Michael C said | February 27th 2008 @ 9:08am | Report comment
Benny -
For almost 50 years, the pre-eminant ‘football’ magazine from Britian – titled “World Soccer”. I rest my case. (btw- Les Murray holds a first edition copy as one of his most proud possessions…….I wonder if he’s used a black texta to scribble out the word ’soccer’ and replace it with ‘football’?????, now doubt, you yourself would. I think there’s a new found oversensitivity on behalf of soccer folk – most often displayed by those adament that ’soccer’ is a US construct and the use of it is designed purely to demean and repress the soccer world………please tell me you’re not one of those?
midfielder -
It’s actually been the RUgby folk who have come out and declared West Sydney a battleground. And I’m bemused that they (other than Denis Fitzgerald) regard the AFL as such a threat – I think they are using it as an excuse to ‘raise the banners’ in the real fight against soccer. As you say though, at a certain level – FOR NOW – there’s some mutual benefit for the rectangle pitch sharers. However, we all know the battle is at the grass roots level for the players of the future. And soccer is well and truely on the toes of the 2 Rugby codes right through NSW.
AFL fights not with the rectangle ground fraternity, AFL is busy with it’s partnerships with cricket. And so, like the rectangle boys, there is a mutual benefit level of co-operation available and being pursued. One that in reality has always existed and is the initial reason the code came to be.
westy -
oh dear, since when did you believe the spin???
The AFL has said they support the principle of Australia hosting the World Cup. But, similar to the NRL, have no specific information and would be interested in knowing more.
Basically – the right thing to say at this juncture where nothing actually is on the table.
Stamrocks –
what a lot of people fail to understand about many AFL types is that – as a function of being a domestic only code that runs for a defined season – we all have other interests. i.e. the architypal Aust Footy player plays cricket over summer, goes to the Boxing day test, watches a bit of tennis, might follow the nags, watch the FA CUp final and barrack for the Wallabies and Socceroos………very, very few AFL folk a mono-sport folk. I gather, that, because soccer is – if you want it – a 365 day a year ‘global’ event – that, it is very easy for many soccer folk to completely immersed, to be absolutely myopic in a sporting sense.
The other aspect, AFL high performance coaches etc, to study ‘worlds’ best practice, – they MUST look outside of the box. However, I know enough soccer followers who follow other sports who are frustrated by the soccer mono-culture. Invariably, the bigger a market segment becomes, the bigger the comfortable and fat market middle ground – all the fat Jabba’s who have no reason to divert from their rut……
Stamarocks -
I’ll come back to you.
Michael C said | February 27th 2008 @ 11:04am | Report comment
Stamarocks -
I am well aware of the Simon Hill articles pertaining to ’smell the fear’ back in 2005. A childish rant against Sydney Rugby oriented journalism.
You said:
“Enjoy the AFL season but just keep a thought in your mind while you are watching 80 point blow outs at your beloved MCG that Football has awoken and can smell the fear of the other codes.”
Just so you know -
Last season – 176 games in 22 rounds.
10% of games were 1 goal or less final margin.
22% within 2 goals or less.
58% within 5 goals or less.
—-
5% of games over 80 pts, and only 3 were over 100 pts. (I would have loved my NOrth Melbourne to have had a few of those!!!! – because, we love to not have to stress, too often a 4 goal lead at 3/4 time is eroded in the first 5 mins of the last quarter and there’s no let up, too often 3 goal lead with 5 mins to go is NOT enough – too rarely to we win running away with the game, too rarely can we smugly start chanting and singing the song before the final siren…..too rarely are we 10 goals up with 5 mins to play and suddenly the party tricks come out…….but, you obviously don’t understand that. Nor the notion of preferring to lose conclusively than narrowly – so we CAN get out before their song, and try to escape the carpark or RR station before their gloating faces are thrust back upon us.)
NO one failed to score.
There were 3 draws, oh, but no scoreless draws. These games produced respectively scores of 73 each, 85 each and 63 each.
——————————–
Last season A-League – V3 HAL
84 games over 21 rounds.
9 – or – just under 11% of games were nil all draws. (you may like that, I don’t know – many people don’t.)
33% of games were drawn. (whoopee, no one lost)
12% of games were 3 goal margin blow outs.
24% were 2 goals or more margins. Just how often do you see a 2 goal margin overhauled with 5 mins to go? Especially since you NEED 3 goals to actually get in front.
Teams failed to score on 27% of occassions. What a wonderful thought, competition average dictates that when I turn up, I have slightly greater than a 1 in 4 chance of seeing my team NOT score. Fabulous.
220 goals from 2380 attempts on goal. That’s a worse than 1 in 10 strike rate. That’s 9.2% success rate.
Although, granted, on 41% of those ‘attempts’ are listed as being ‘On target’, in which case the success rate climbs to 23% – ah, if only the lads could actually kick the ball somewhere near the goal a little more often…..I’d like to see a thesis done on the definition of ’sporting fluke’……..
actually, 50% of the games contained only 23% of the goals.
—————-
all I can say dear sir, is, if you are happy to sit through 90 mins with only one toilet/bar break because you dare not leave your seat JUST IN CASE that one goal is scored in your absence…….well, no wonder the (contrived) atmosphere of the game is dominated by people jumping up and down all match – I now realise they’re all busting for a pee.
I base my perception and generalisations on measure facts. I’m allowing you the option to do the same. I’ll understand if you choose not to – as that’s a common outcome.
—————–
Crowds:
“over and above expectations”. I really wonder. Based on 450K participants, this new non-ethno competition across the quite sports months with zero real competition and are you telling me that we are wrapt with 60-70K a week across the entire nation INCLUDING New Zealand? Perhaps you are. But, that says ‘niche’ to me.
I still know of many people who support the A-League not because it’s good, but, because it’s what they want. And they don’t want a return to the dark ages of the NSL. Fair enough. I also know of many more ‘global’ soccer fans who have been and their sum following as a result is a once a year excursion to a game. Me – I went with soccer fans to see 50K at TD and had to endure a 0-0 result with only 4 attempts on goal……I couldn’t have had a worse initiation. I’m in no hurry to return – but I’m also very busy with young kids, so niether do I get to go to test cricket – thankgod for the 20/20, I could go in after work for that.
Crowds though :
The V3 increase is mostly due to Wellington, given Auckland provided avg 4K V1 and 3K V2, Wellington provided avg of 11.7K – and increase of 80K.
MVFC TD avg crowd dropped 6K, even with 22K members?!?! No games at OP. SFC game drew 20K less than last year, there followed by 3 matches of 22K or less crowds – with 22K members?!?!?
SFC – still yet to match their avg crowds for V1, and, in making the finals in a NSW derby year, SFC was rescued by the MVFC fans from a pretty disappointing crowd avg – up to that game, their crowd average was even lower than the 15K V2 avg.
Perth – well, the major disappointment, V1 avg 9.7K, V2 7.7K and V3 7.6K. What’s going on there?
Ade Utd,- crowds down at Hindmarsh, only rescued for season figure via a ’special event’ fixture near NYE at Adelaide Oval (maybe food for thought, or, maybe just nothing else to do in Adelaide on a festive weekend……BUT, that’s what fixtureres need to take advantage of – - as I often point out about opportunity lost by NOT having MVFC host SFC over the Melb Cup weekend in Melb)
Crowds in the main, outside of Wellington, boosted via better bottom up crowds for Jets and Mariners. The Mariners DID manage a ground record in the local Derby (bloody well want to this season!, good on’em), but then the next week drew 10K less vs Wellington. The Minimum crowd figure was up from press ~5K postings to 8K. That’s good. Better regular support, found their niche (in a top 2 season). The median crowd was up from ~7K V1, 8.5K V2 to 11.5K. So, again, better mid-range support.
Jets – average up, however, still no where near threatening their record of 20980 vs SFC Rnd 18 V2. Similar story to Mariners re min crowds and median figures.
So – the TOp 2 teams are the only real good news stories.
Roar did okay, a slight increase, again, they are reliant on their late season hosting of SFC to pull their average up (gee – do I smell a regularly fixtured blockbuster? be interesting to see what path fixturing policy takes).
It will be very interesting to see how an expanded HAL goes. First 10 teams, then 12 – will it still be a top 4, or a top 5?
Because, with no relegation battles to retain interest down the bottom of the ladder (we ain’t in the EPL y’know), more people will lose interest sooner.
And next year the Roar support will be split – especially if we believe Frank Farina (no reason to doubt him). Maybe they’ll all be stronger in the long run……so long as they survive to the long run.
—–
AFL crowds exceeded 7 miillion for the first time. Same group of 16 teams for the last 10 years. No extra team (eg NRL and extra match per round), no culling a weak link (we did that 10 years ago!!!!!). And all this in a city with the best supported HAL club – - the city that saw the big 2 AFL clubs running their own soccer franchises for a time – - y’know, a city where we aren’t quite as divided as some other cities and the people in other cities I have really come to realise, just don’t seem to ‘get’ Melbourne. (however, the AFL in expanding must keep sight that other cities ARE NOT like Melbourne).
——
btw -
Room to grow – yes. Perhaps. Hopefully a little more efficient with the human resources ideally available via 450K participants.
However, when did the NSL go national. It’s not done much growing for some time. In this country it seems to have been using a bad mixture of seed, soil and fertiliser.
Good luck re the next tv rights. I can see the Socceroos drawing more, as they go to FTA. Foxtel however, paying for the HAL alone – without the Socceroos. That will be interesting. Foxtel have no shortage of relatively cheap overseas content (i.e. no production costs etc). Soccer doesn’t really work on FTA, most overseas competitions are safely closeted away on pay tv – Australia, until such time that we get a fair dinkum 2nd player in the Pay TV market, it’d be hard to imagine an actual bidding war for the HAL? Although, maybe on the Newcastle regionals they may desire to broadcast every 2nd week a Jets away game.
NOte – AFL began the push into Sydney back in ‘81-’82. That began the national thrust. It’s not new. It’s not rushed. And so far, it’s successful – enough. And the fact that the AFL has been doing the business it does without you and those such as you – leads me to believe that the AFL might even be best off to continue without you or those such as you – - – however, for others, there will be greater choice. It won’t simply be soccer vs rugby (a very polarised set of options). Maybe the AFL will fail – but – it’s worth a try. Choice wise, the AFL has a fine history of attracting migrant kids, the Greeks and Italians in particular. They could have stuck with, in many cases, very nice ethno-fit soccer clubs – but, maybe via playing at school – gained exposure to a game that’s slightly freer and more instinctive – and many chose it, and many didn’t. Excellent – in my mind. THat alone says to me that the product is sustainable on that basis of choice. However, yes, anyone hoping to be the next Beckham needs to play soccer, or tennis to be the next Federer, or Golf to be the next Woods. Funny how the distant riches of the ultra global elite are only so much of an attraction to the kids – more so to the parents sometimes me thinx.
cheers
Millster said | February 27th 2008 @ 11:19am | Report comment
MC – you’ve spoken of this ‘mono-culture’ a number of times before. Can you explain to me what you mean?
I would have thought that it was easier to identify an archetypal social-class/ethnicity/character to each of the 2 Rugby codes and to AFL than to football…
Millster said | February 27th 2008 @ 11:26am | Report comment
Hehe MC – for an AFL fan you sure do plenty of stats on ’soccer’. That maybe speaks more eloquently than any of the wordsyou write!
Michael C said | February 27th 2008 @ 11:55am | Report comment
Millster -
I would hope that to a degree I’m an example of what I mean. (btw – the HAL provides an interesting case study – and ‘clean’ stats from day one – and good ‘excerise’ for someone who deals a lot with reporting/stats etc)
I think you confuse the Sydney demographics of sport with the traditional Aust Footy states demographics.
In Sydney there are clear League and Union partitions. No argument there. Soccer fits in generally, outside of that. Sydney is also more segregated geographically, if, for no other reason than the harbour etc definitely cuts it north south, similar in a sense to Perth (north and south of the river). Melb just spreads out radially.
In Melb, because Aust Footy grew as the suburbs grew in the mid-late 1800s as Melb became wealthy on the back of the gold rush and became the industrial and there fore suburban centre of Australia (at the time, and in some respects still – the former).
It meant that there was no archetypal social/class/ethnic character for a Aust Footy fan. The leather elbow brigade didn’t support a different code or competition, they more so just supported a different club (eg Melbourne, or Carlton). My NOrht Melbourne are known as the Shin-boners on the back of the old abottoirs out around Nth MElb, Kensington/Newmarket area. And those real blue collar workers got to host the blue bloods at the little old industrial heartland Arden St ground…..and take them on at the same game.
The distinction beyond Aust Footy might then be via the 2nd code/sport etc followed. For example, over summer, some might go off to rowing, to yachting, to tennis, to golf, to cricket.
The soccer mono-culture for those who choose it – is that they support the game as a whole, rather than just a club, or just a competition. They can therefore, in this new pay TV and internet age – ALWAYS find a game happening somewhere. And get their fix. These people don’t therefore need or desire any sport other than soccer – and,
at the admin or coaching level, many people will in all likelihood never have contemplated something from another code – as soccer in their mind provides all the perspective they need.
The Aust Footy culture is often that people support their club and hate everyone else and hate the head office.
Many ethnics in Melb still love their soccer – but, the best way to be able to break the ice anywhere and everywhere was the old “So, who do you follow in the footy”, because, everyone has a team and can at least say “Oh, yeah, they aren’t doing that well this year”, rather than launching into a debate of the merits of Union vs League…….
….I have noticed that the RUgby folk in particular can be a bunch of debaters.
The funniest thing though for me is hearing someone whinging about AFL being played like soccer – and they might give up on it……and do just what??? Go to the soccer. The reality though is that people can happily enjoy both – - just so long as they retain their differences. And that’s why, should the HAL forever remain a summer sport – then – happy happy joy joy – we can all be pretty happy, and even if domestic leagues moved to summer probably more footy players would play soccer over summer to stay fit.
Midfielder said | February 27th 2008 @ 12:40pm | Report comment
MC
What’s your problem with football, …………….mate……………..the red pills are not working anymore suggest you either up the dose or tey the blue ones.
Michael C said | February 27th 2008 @ 1:30pm | Report comment
Midfielder -
are you referring to my response to Stamarocks?,
or
my response to Benny?
My problem with ‘football’ – association football (no major problems with that as a sport that like all others has good and bad aspects), problem with juvenile and smart rrrr’s comments such as
“Enjoy the AFL season but just keep a thought in your mind while you are watching 80 point blow outs at your beloved MCG that Football has awoken and can smell the fear of the other codes.”
I had kinda thunk’d that the Roar might be a level above the school yard.
It is obvious that I’m almost running solo on the AFL front – I gather most AFL punters keep to themselves on Bigfooty etc, and somehow thus far theRoar seems very NSW/QLD Rugby/Soccer focussed. So – I apologise if I labour some points – however, I have realised that the demographic of the audience is in some cases completely ignorant by choice/birth/circumstance/no fault of their own.
Anyway, I find the Aust Football landscape intriguing. ANd I learn more about and to appreciate more my preferred game via learning more about other games and codes. Via another thread in discussion with Sheek you can see some of my main bugbears around scoring in soccer. However, I’ve never stated anywhere that I believe AFL scoring for example is perfect and have quoted where I believe it is deficient.
Hmmm, main problem with soccer for so long in Australia is that it lived off the coat tails of the world. Telling us how great it was because of all it’s overseas relatives……..finally the Australian family is starting to grow up……because, finally it’s decided to BE Australian. About bloody time……now all we need is for the nation as a whole to do the same and become a Republic…..
cheers
Slippery Jim said | February 27th 2008 @ 2:35pm | Report comment
It is obvious that I’m almost running solo on the AFL front
Ah, my dear Michael C, so glad to see you broadening your narrow horizons.
The reason for the above is simple – you have placed your article under the ‘football’ tab, when clearly it is for the AFTL demographic.
Hope this clears things up for you.
By the way, I totally disagree on all counts.
Michael C said | February 27th 2008 @ 2:46pm | Report comment
Yes, Slippery J,
I’m pretty sure I meant to put in on ‘football’ site, it’s not really an ‘other sports’ topic – although, it’s probably more around ’soccer’ points than AFL points…..but alas, no one has thought far enough to put a ’soccer’ tab – such a shame, ’tis a good size game globally but Australians just still don’t regard it in it’s own right. Maybe you should petition theRoar administrators to insert a ‘Soccer’ tab?
……and as you well know, football is a generic term that collectively describes a variety of football codes played variously across the world – and as such, given that this thread pertains to discussion touching specifically on 2 and mentions explicitly a 3rd football code of the 4 major ones within Australia…..then, really, I couldn’t think of a better place to put it.
Millster said | February 27th 2008 @ 2:52pm | Report comment
First – props to Slippery Jim. Your last line meets levels of efficiency in the use of the english language I have rarely seen!
MC- Have to give you points for a great topic. At least you do have people debating… and FINALLY not on a “my game is better than yours” basis only.
But for the record… in terms of your mono-culture…. I love soccer. But I hate MVFC (A-League) and ManU (EPL). But I have misgivings and criticisms about many FFA decisions. But some aspects of the game – mainly game-playing/diving/etc – make me cringe. But I have been known to attend Brumbies and St Kilda games and yell myself hoarse while having an awesome time.
If you mean that I’d switch off a neutral game in another code whereas I’d probably watch a neutral game in soccer you are probably right. But I think it’s a gross generalisation to say that soccer fans are not, or barely, interested in anything else.
PS: I caught a cab in Melbourne last week while on business. Sure enough, I opened the conversation with “what team do you follow?” and ‘Luigi senior’ answered Hawthorn. But he followed up quickly with the unsolicited remark that his son ‘Luigi junior’ had a great big Alsopp poster on his wall, and wanted to play for the Victory, and that they had both become members for Christmas. (The conversation quickly and obviously switched to the fact that his son should see the light and aim to play for the Sky Blues
) Sign of the times…
onside said | February 27th 2008 @ 3:12pm | Report comment
OK lets get off the subject a bit, if anybody can recall what the subject was.
A bit like great pub debates where nobody finishes a thought or a sentence.
I would like to see some form of send off / sin bin rule introduced to AFL.
I would like to see AFL’s total coverage of the boundary / sidelines introduced
to football. That means four assistant referees to cover both sidelines ..
I’ve got some others ,but that will do for the moment
Slippery Jim said | February 27th 2008 @ 3:16pm | Report comment
Given that this thread pertains to discussion touching specifically on 2 and mentions explicitly a 3rd football code of the 4 major ones within Australia…
Really? The little picture of a round ball with black and white patches next to every article didn’t shed any light on which code was being discussed?
You will find your egg-shaped foot-things depicted under the “AFL” tab
Seriously though, congrats on a passionate article, far more interesting to read than one from someone who doesn’t want to be pinned down to any particular camp…
Michael C said | February 27th 2008 @ 4:34pm | Report comment
Millster -
I did say “for those who choose it -”, given that you’re clearly NOT in that category (A. I congratulate you, and B. I congratulate you!!)
oikee -
send off is used at most ‘lower’ levels of footy. My comp, the VAFA (Amateurs) have a multi card system of reds, and greens and I think a couple of new ones – I just choose not to worry about what they signify because I’m the cleanest player I know……
There is generally an annual discussion about trialling send off rules in the AFL. The theory especially is that in a Grand Final, you can clock someone who is out of the game, you may then be suspended 10 weeks, but, fat lot of good that is on the day.
Or, maybe apply a rule that if you clean someone up dubiously, then, if they are off hurt for 15 mins, then you should be off for that time too.
Should there be man down scenarios or not – certainly in soccer the often least desired result is a red card in the first 30 mins as that just results in one team playing 9 men back the rest of the afternoon.
I guess the traditional aspect of Aust Footy was to never give that bludger, the umpire – too much power. In the early days the captains umpired and you might appeal to the ‘referee’. (very ‘cricketesque’). The umpire was and always has been of a different breed, and involved only by necessity and to allow the fair dinkum folk to play. Where-as the codes eminating from school sports allow the umpire to effectively ‘enforce’ the game rather like a headmaster the school – which can almost encourage over officiousness rather than just letting the game ‘flow’ – and that’s the sort of umpires we most hate in AFL, the one’s who get out there and seem ego driven to make a “This is my paddock” type of ’statement – - so, to give them the power to send off…….oh, gee, that’s going down a path perhaps best not trod. [I read a bit about it in Geoffrey Blaineys excellent book "A game of our own"].]
cheers Slippery J. (yeah, and mebbe I’ve found my forum(ish), might have to alert Pipps and Redb, can conduct a bit of cross code talk here and get away with it – usually). btw – the thing I find almost most boring is regulation Team A will beat Team B because talk….it’s hard enough to predict the team I follow most closely let alone trying to predict others.
Midfielder said | February 28th 2008 @ 12:02am | Report comment
MC
You just don’t get us football people, my previous post on the pills relates to your detailed analysis, interpretation of your analysis and generally negative statements you make about football.
I never bag out other codes in fact I quite like both league & union, ……….union management has been historically a joke, but the game itself is OK.
But most football people do have a team, many not in Australia, in fact most people who support the A-League also have a overseas team, mind are Liverpool, Barca, Uvay.
But when you are happy within your own sport knowing 380 million people play it, that you host many of the worlds major sporting events, WC, Champions league, the major Olympic sport, expanding in Asia & Africa at a very fast rate etc. Then as the man said you must be doing something right.
So most of us don’t care what AFL is doing as long as you leave us alone we are content and comfortable with our game we understand how it works and how exciting a 0 all draw can be. I don’t feel the need to explain to you why I like and enjoy football nor do I assume I have a right to ask you to “SHOW CAUSE” why you like AFL.
As I said in an earlier post league has taken a lets build some relationships with football and see were we can mutually benefit each other, as opposed to the AFL war on every think approach. Only time will tell but me thinks for the first time in a long time, leagues management decision making on this issue is better than the AFL or maybe I just enjoy the hugs from league.
Michael C said | February 28th 2008 @ 10:46am | Report comment
Midfielder – I was having a specifc go back at Stamarocks -
I was deliberately being negative to a degree for that purpose alone.
Look – certain folk on theROar go to great lengths (other than presenting facts) to assert that the AFL is massaging figures and misrepresenting reality.
I simply presented factual evidence to -
try to silence the twit going on about ‘enjoy your 80 pt margins’……….that was a stupid statement, and I think I’ve proven a point there.
There is also a notion of ‘great crowds’ in the HAL – and the crowds are doing good, and the total average tells a bit of a story. BUt, similar to the NRL saying wow, look, 3 million – they need to qualify that that was on the back of an extra game each week. And, if you look at average NRL crowds, the average figure for 2007 was boosted hugely by the Titans and Broncos and in the heartland it’s very, very average. Reading between the lines can paint a very different picture.
The HAL. The main reason of an increase in crowd average this year is Wellington. Celebrate that. They got that right. Woohoo, the national soccer comp owes 67% of it’s improved crowds this year to….New Zealand. And the rest of Newcastle and Gosford. Relatively stagnant in Syd, Bris, Melb, Ade and Perth. That tells a story too. Especially with up coming regional expansion, more teams, longer season? teams out of the running earlier? the 2nd tier and related costs? extra travel costs to Townsville? diluted player pool? the debate of a finals series vs ‘top of the table champion’ in a non-relegation environment? etc etc – the HAL still has a fair bit of water to flow under the bridge and is a hugely interesting case study to follow – whether a hard core soccer fan or not. And, one of the most interesting sports marketing aspects is the ability of the HAL to deal with what in reality is it’s biggest competiton. That of soccer. i.e. those who compare it (unfavourably) to international leagues, the socceroos are also in competition with the HAL. THe way the HAL markets itself – ‘football, but not as you know it’ – was that aimed at existing soccer fans or was that ‘declaring war’ and seeking to ‘convert’ people from other codes. The ‘90 minutes, 90 emotions’, is that aimed at existing soccer fans? I reckon the HAL needs to first focus on a marketing promotion like this ‘THis is the league you’ve always wanted, so, stop being bitchy and come and support it’. It’s precisely because I understand the ‘global’ aspect of soccer that makes the fight for ‘identity’ of the national Aust League, ever since the old NSL was the FIRST NATIONAL football league – of any code – such an interesting subject. I’m sorry for being at times a little negative,but, if I wanted ‘bubblegum’ discussions on any topic, I’d simply buy the ‘industry’ magazines and read profile pieces and ladder predictions.
AFL – I do want to do a bit of a review of minimun and median and aveage crowds in Vic and out of Vic. There might be a story to tell. However, we no longer have crowds of 10K at suburban grounds with crappy seating, crappy access and crappy toilets. Given that my Roos are even averaging crowds around 30K, they could never fit that many into Arden St (safely).
Simon Hill said | February 28th 2008 @ 1:18pm | Report comment
Hello Michael,
It seems you don’t like me – that’s fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion…even though I’m pretty sure you’ve never met me. Perhaps you should remember however, that I broadcast (and occasionally write) to a football (“soccer” in your world) audience. Frankly, I’m not much interested what AFL fans think of my work – or my game. There are plenty of AFL writers out there who cater for their needs…and the more broadminded AFL fans enjoy both sports – they don’t have to be mutually exclusive. Our sport has, for too long, been ridiculed, criticised and marginalised by those in the “mainstream” of the media here in Australia, without too much in the way of knowledge to back it up. We are entitled to have our views heard, and not to be shot down because we are “English” or “ethnic” (two words that stood out to me in some of your responses to your other readers here.) No-one is trying to destroy AFL (or Rugby League for that matter) – but if you dish it out to our game (and plenty still do!), then these days, you can expect a bit back. Just to clear one thing up – FIFA does not demand other sports stop during a World Cup – only that the venues in use for the finals are not used for other events for the duration. Also, the reason the government is willing to spend a lot of cash in trying to get the event here, is because the international exposure would be akin to the Sydney Olympics – and would generate millions of dollars in return. A final point -by all means if YOU want to use the word “soccer” then go ahead – but please don’t tell us what we can call our own game. If I’d have called it “soccer” at the MCG that night, I’d have been strung alive by football fans – and they (in the main) are our audience.
Rgds
Simon
Michael C said | February 28th 2008 @ 2:17pm | Report comment
Good afternoon Simon,
Thankyou very much for your comment, btw – in saying I don’t rate you – well, I can’t rate you. Don’t worry, there are many AFL journos who I would rate poorly. I have no reason to rate you is probably more appropriate.
The reference to the ’smell the fear’ articles – I stand by – and can well understand the tone taken, I do still describe it as a bit of a childish rant – however, compared to what you are up against in the Sydney media especially including the News Ltd press that seems to very poorly disguise it’s links to the NRL. As a serious piece of journalism, well, I’m sure you’d be unlikely to nominate those articles for a Walkley award.
Thank you for clearing up the FIFA position.
I would love to attend a WC match in town – and would probably love to have a direct overlap with the AFL season so we could clearly show visitors just what the local game is all about.
Re naming of games. That argument is of course a 2-way street. We who follow Australian Football don’t appreciate ’sporting foreigners’ coming along and trying to dictate to us just that same thing. So long as where ambiguity exists that people make themselves clear. And so long as some people get off their high horse about the ‘true football’ – as abstract a concept as that could ever be anyway. The English speaking world of Canada, US, Australia, New Zealand and England illustrate variously that where ambiguity exists, it is probably fairest to provide a clearer identifier – and no country is more ambiguous than Australia.
MCG – soccer in Australia is fortunate to be able to access such a venue, irrespective of camber of the pitch!!!!!
Millster said | February 28th 2008 @ 2:58pm | Report comment
Hehe…. a fortnight ago Fitzy, now the Hillster. God I love this site…
Slippery Jim said | February 28th 2008 @ 3:07pm | Report comment
I have no reason to rate you is probably more appropriate
Backpedalling furiously, Michael C?
Michael C said | February 28th 2008 @ 3:07pm | Report comment
I’m not holding my breath for Denis Commetti, heck, I think I butched his name……..well, that was hardly centimetre perfect.
How about this though, Caroline Wilson is the one that blew up the Mike Fitizpatrick statements around ‘as early as 2012′ to mean ‘as of 2012′.
Caroline Wilson is the one giving the impression that FIFA would be effectively causing AFL to come to a hault – where as reality is that we can happily player soccer on Monday to Thursday at the ‘G …… so long as they have no complaints about the quality or camber of surface – although, didn’t the MCG get pretty well falttened for the C’wealth games. There’s no where near the camber that there used to be – when at ground level you’d see heads and shoulders only on the far side of the ground…..
so – come on Caro, you’ve been subtlely twisting stories and milking the headlines………I thought that was Patrick Smiths domain…..
(I’m assuming Jim Wilson doesn’t frequent, shame….I’m still waiting for him to defend why he never clarified on Sunrise that W.Sailor was done via WADA testing and therefore WOULD have been banned, if caught likewise, in the AFL or any other code signed up to WADA, and in fact, at the time, FIFA was in the midst of a – very underreported in Austraila – tustle with WADA such that FIFA was declared non-compliant. Ah well, self serving, or ignorant, or incompetent journos……..however, again, given at the time last year channel 7 were and are broadcasters of AFL – and when Cameron Williams is it on Ch.9 the year before also made the same blunder – they too were broadcasters of AFL – - – it just goes to show with ‘friends’ like that, the AFL had best be careful not to make too many media enemies……..and it seems that the NRL are trying to ensure that just that DOES happen. Onya Caro…..see what you’ve done!!!!)
[actually, Caroline Wilson I gather must be very thick skinned on such fronts, she'd have to be being a lady in such a male dominated environment.]
Michael C said | February 28th 2008 @ 3:15pm | Report comment
Slippery J -
back peddling, never, I only ever spin the wheels, never go backwards. For Mr.Hill to interpret that I don’t like him is not true. It’s the old concept I try to get through to my children.
“I do not dislike you, I just dislike your behaviour.”
and, my favourite saying other than Voltaires “If religion did not exist”, is his other gem : “though I disagree with what you say, I defend to the death your right to say it”, and I guess, that’s what we’re all doing here.
cheers
Millster said | February 28th 2008 @ 3:47pm | Report comment
In any case gents we don’t need to be too precious.
Simon Hill must have a VERY thick skin, tough enough to absorb the trials and torments of being a Manchester City fan…
Simon Hill said | February 28th 2008 @ 6:09pm | Report comment
Hi Michael,
I take your points on board. Just a couple of things though – “sporting foreigners” – there are lots of football fans born in this country who would take a similar view to me, and, in any case, why should their background matter so long as they are here legally, obey the law and pay their taxes? Secondly, you may feel my “Smell the fear” articles were childish, but I can tell you they elicited a huge response from the football fraternity (again, the majority of my audience) – most appreciative that someone had finally given the writers from the oval ball codes a taste of their own medicine. The fact a few got uptight about the articles only proved that while such writers were happy to dish it out to football – they weren’t so keen on taking it in return. As regards the ambiguity of the word “football” – I agree with you, but the point is, we are told we are NOT allowed to use it by some fanatics of the oval ball games. If it’s ambiguous, then we should ALL have access to it…no? Finally, and on the subject of access – why should football be “fortunate” to use the MCG? It’s used for many sporting events – Cricket, AFL, Commonwealth Games, League, Union, and when football plays big games there, it attracts big crowds…thus, I presume, paying its own way?
Rgds
Simon
John Ryan said | February 28th 2008 @ 6:46pm | Report comment
Gee your not bad Micheal,AFL is not mollycoddled by the Media,you must read and watch different media to me pal.
And I stand by the statement that a major news group signed an agreement with the AFL for only positive coverage to be given to the AFL.
Redb said | February 28th 2008 @ 7:09pm | Report comment
Michael C,
Well there ya go, Simon Hill was just in revenge mode when he coined his ’smell the fear’ phrase.
Interesting that FIFA does not expect other sports to stop, they just cant use their own stadiums whilst the WC is on?
Re football use, well it was called soccer in Australia only 3 years ago. The governing body – The Australian Soccer Federation, the domestic league – the National Soccer League (NSL) and the the national team – the Socceroos. The debate is not soccer’s own right to align itself with the international scene (bar USA, Canada, NZ,), but many soccer fans now beleive the term is rightfully theirs and all others should change their name. Prerry arrogant don’t you think?
cheers
Redb
Midfielder said | February 28th 2008 @ 7:47pm | Report comment
MC
Have you ever through you are doing AFL more harm by your ranting on about football and how pure the AFL.
I suggest when you get the increased dosage of red pills or the blue ones ………..that for the greater good of the AFL when you are next at the staff meeting discussing what and how to blog and present to the net at large you call in a behavioural expert your think tank needs it.
Fred said | February 28th 2008 @ 9:09pm | Report comment
Who cares, just piss the NRL and AFL off for a month, i mean really. Actually, the one person who does care and make a whole lot of difference is Mr K Rudd, a good man, a man with a great sporting vision for our country.
The real question is, does the AFL and NRL think they are above the law?? Are they going to go against the federal government and state governments and block their attempts to bring the biggest sporting event in the world to Australia? Are they going to go against the prime minister? It’s has worked out beautifully, the prime minister wants to bring the world cup here, and the two local codes can do nothing about it, aside from kick and scream.
I look forward to all the media circus that this is going to create over the very long bidding process, and i especally look forward to the AFL paranoia that is flowing from AFL house with every kick of a football.
I might also add that there is no chance of us hosting the WC in 2018, maybe 2022 but even then we are not an ideal host and there are plenty better. The real victory is that the government has realised the potential of the world game and is willing to throw taxpayer money at it.
Redb said | February 28th 2008 @ 10:19pm | Report comment
Fred,
your last statement is not to be underestimated. But then again the resolve for fans of the Australian game is also not to be underestimated.
I don’t mind the English game, but I’m not about to cast my own game out simply because we must follow like sheep, another game that has world appeal. I’d prefer to maintain my heritage than become just another FIFA ranking.
cheers
Redb
Michael C said | February 28th 2008 @ 10:19pm | Report comment
Simon Hill
sorry, I meant by ’sporting foreigners’ not as ‘ethnic foreigners’, as my family is one of those; More from the sense that I think Midfielder or someone (and sorry for using a thread ‘interpretation’) was referring to AFL as a foreign game to him as he’d grown up in Sydney and knew not of it. Therefore, practioners of RU, RL or Soccer bringing their travelling roadshow to town are effectively (by that definition) sporting foreigners – or sporting gypsies or whatever. Certainly – ethnic/cultural back ground is no issue – never should be.
‘Football’ – yep, I’ll argue forever that all codes have rights on the term. It’s the ‘football’ family, and the family tree is an interesting one, especially the branches and those in relative isolation – Australian Footy is like the Galapogas, the US like the continent that broke away, the Irish, well, they’re just a valley that was largely inaccessible.
MCG – Rugby likewise is fortunate to be able to play there. Main point on that is that Govt has funded very little of the present configuration, I think State put in $77m, Feds offered $90m will massive IR strings attached. That was politely refused. The rest is the MCC, and their major revenue sources are memberships and tenants. The major tennant is the AFL/VFL over the years, with big crowds, and the vast majority of members ARE so because of the VFL/AFL grandfinal and because of Boxing Day cricket.
And – they (the MCC) have had the balls to knock down old stands and build modern facilities – where as up in Sydney the ruddy SCG is like a museum piece. It’s lovely, it’s beautifuly, but it let’s down the entire country when only 40K can attend an Ashes Test day of cricket that otherwise would draw 95K to a decent venue………..look, when the Rugby folk came along, they really thought they were putting on a great show, but then the game started, and the next 2 years the crowds progressively fell away and they gave up.
btw – the beauty of the MCG is for the ‘56 Olympics and the recent C’wealth games – unlike the Sydney Olympic stadium – there was no concern about putting in temporary seating – the capacity wasn’t going to be wasted.
Westy said | February 28th 2008 @ 10:31pm | Report comment
The sydney cricket ground is and always will be primarily a beautiful cricket ground. Probably helps to explain the dominance of New South Wales in cricket in Australia.
Midfielder said | February 28th 2008 @ 11:23pm | Report comment
Redb
You said ” don’t mind the English game”……………insert world for English.
In another thread on the football war, and a number of articles I have read is that US, Australia, Canda & NZ, major codes are other than soccer, part of the reasoning was in a way of not conforming with the English. So your choose of words is interesting as maybe burning deep down within the AFL soul is to rebel agianst the Ebglish.
MC I have played RU (some), RL (lots even at a semi professional level), Football (mostly) , but I have played a little AFL and been to some park games and one season played football along side an AFL oval and watched I guess half a season of Sydney Park AFL (not sure of the standard)
So AFL is not foreign game as you put it, but from someone brought up on holding the ball, I found TBH AFL scrappy with to much scoring, and a game designed for people much taller than my 5′ 4″ & 9.5 stone way back when.
But I was never fearful of the game and found many people who played it quite decent people just out for a bit of fun, the same as me. So the very things you like and enjoy about AFL I deplore, and I respect your right to play your game without much comment from me. In fact my one phrase of I found AFL scrappy with to much scoring is the only thing in all my posts I have said about the game.
Michael C said | February 29th 2008 @ 6:43am | Report comment
Midfielder –
might’ve been Westy what said it – not really important – apologies though if I’ve misrepresented you thusly.
AFL can be scrappy at lower standards – because it is actually pretty damn hard to hit targets under pressure – so, if the skills aren’t up to it, the poor leading forwards get dished up with half volleys, kicks over his head, too wide etc etc. Certainly however, a windy day can be the most annoying weather condition.
Too much scoring is a relative thing.
There have been propositions put that societies that grew around an entrepreneurial freedom – gravitate more to games were effort is more rewarded. Therefore, the best team on the day more often than not wins (not necessarily the best ‘team on paper’ before the day). That in essence is a function of the game being about attacking your goal rather than defending your goal. If you get past that then it’s not really too high scoring (also the fact that it takes ‘only’ 17 goals to score 100 pts – compared to basketball that has required ~45-50 goals to generate 100 pts. At lower levels though, our games will tend to be lower scoring. People just don’t have the skills.
Also, the size of a ground can play a part, too small and the play will be too congested (and probably better to play 16 a-side perhaps – no wings – the old VFA was a 16 aside competition).
The good players and teams are much better able to use space, switch play, find targets and have continuous passages of play – - – just the same way in which bad soccer is scrappy, bad rugby is error ridden etc.
Certainly at 5′4″ you’d be looking to play a specific ‘roving’ roll – a key midfielder whose primary job is to be the ‘in and under’ player, and traditionally rotating with another fellow out of the forward pocket – so, at that size you’d be a key part of the ‘engine room’ to get centre and stoppage clearances – and hopefully snag a couple of goals ‘crumbing’ to the forwards whilst you’re resting in the pocket.
Alternately, be the specialist back pocket aiming to man up the resting rovers…..
That’s the traditional ‘fit’ for that body type – however, individual skills and attributes always come into it. Since the game is as tackle oriented as the Rugby codes – the objective being to NOT get caught – means that skinny and light framed players can excel more readily – - some of the greats looked like they shouldn’t be out there, Robbie Flower, Michael Tuck, James Hird even – often the guys playing with long sleeves all the time do it to ‘hide’ their lack of ‘bulk’.
Westy said | February 29th 2008 @ 1:21pm | Report comment
” AFL can be scrappy at lower standards”Thanks Michael you have aptly described Sydney AFL. The AFL’s original controversial objective of selectively targeting more elite junior athletes in Sydney is the way to go to build a pool of players for new franchises. The current local competitions are poor. eg. a local rugby league primary school ( the school plays on the weekend) in north west Sydney won the Paul Kelly Cup And finished runner up the year after. There was only one AFL player the rest were Leaguies and footballers. This is good exposure for the game but they are the players you want are not playing after it. You are getting those who cannot cope with the physicality of League and rugby or the athleticism of premier youth football league. It is these players you need. The skill level here is poorand in reality they have produced very few quality players.
Michael C said | February 29th 2008 @ 1:55pm | Report comment
Westy –
Certainly, identify decent potential talent perhaps external to the system, and likewise within the system itself, and rapidly channel them down a ‘elite’ pathway. Similar to how an education system may try to deal with ‘gifted’ kids.
It’s not always the kids necessarily who can not cope with other codes – in some cases it’s simply that they more enjoy footy. It’s one of those things when you read the sporting cv’s of some who transition. (I know, some of that will be ’spun’). But, quite often, it is simply an exposure via school that does it at age 15 – and they find they like the extra skills dimension compared to either rugby or soccer, or just enjoy the greater freedom of no off-side and less of those ‘restrictive’ rules that allows the game to ideally be a little more instinctive than the others (like batting against fast bowlers – must be instinctive in many respects, where as vs the spin bowlers – requires more thought, but not too much, just so much, and no more!!).
Local weekend warrior grades will rarely provide the stars, the junior level – well, since it’s a little more of an individual game (i.e. not specific formations as in Rugby, then, good juniors will always stand apart, be the kid that grabs the ball from the centre, breaks away, 2 bounces and drills the goal from 45 out……the scrappy skills of his team mates won’t impact that. It’s more in the ability to develop key position type forwards who require good/adequate delivery to stand out.
The main thing is building a base for the clubs – and young Bird at sydney, looks a very good prospect, a chance for round 1 this year coming off the rookie list. His dad was from that little enclave in Sydney that saw him play for St.George, eventually they ended up at Nelson Bay – and the junior teams struggled for numbers, no doubt was scrappy and not hugely talented in the main – - but, at least kids are participating in sport – which, we should all be pleased about – and young Bird was able to get noticed and get ‘fast tracked’. That’s the key – the efficiency of any talent pathway – it’s not enough just to leave it to ‘luck’ or pushy parents who thrust their own kids forward at the expense of better other kids.
Midfielder said | February 29th 2008 @ 5:19pm | Report comment
MC
The 1970’s classic song “I was lost in France in Love”, is how I think of you and AFL. I have never seen a more devoted fan, so please read my words and don’t see what is not there.
When I said scrappy that is how I see AFL, and I did not like high scoring games with a goal scored every five or so mins, or basketball with a basket scored every 2 mins or so.
I actually like to see good and strong defence, Canterbury & Parrmatta played a famous grand final won 4-2 by Parrmatta but with five mins to go the score was 2-1, then parra scored a try and it was 4-2 (try was only worth 3 points then). The defense that day had every supporter from both camps screaming their team on to hold on. Therefore ball control and controled passing of a high quality I appreciate and AFL provides neither for me, except that I urge you with grace. I will equally respect your not liking it and love of your sport but please stop lecturing me / us on what and why we should enjoy AFL.
I loved watching Micheal Beahmond of the central coast Mariners in his defensive role in fact he was voted the fans player of Hal , so our game is totally different and we look at defense as very important not only scoring, see Lucas Neil at West Ham about 10 million per year as a sweeper and team captian.
Anyway I am off to a mates farewell so have a good weekend MC, and watch your AFL
Redb said | March 1st 2008 @ 2:23am | Report comment
Oh Midfielder you dislay the classic dogged english game> This is australia we are free, open, aggresive, we score, we make things happen, we dont live in a cold climate wher you need to scrape through the day.
Crikey get a tape of the Geelong GF win – attack, attack that’s the way the game should be played and I barrack for Essendon.
cheers
redb
Michael C said | March 2nd 2008 @ 3:57pm | Report comment
MIdfielder –
I here this a lot –
the appreciation of defence – - however, soccer is so heavily weighted to the defenders that – via off-side, no hands other than the goalie, a x-bar, invariably it’s not played man on man, but, rather, with pre-defined stacked defenses……..could I just suggest that the line of admiring well crafted defence in a game that is defensively geared – is a bit underwhelming to me………however, you can barely be admiring well crafted attack as the recognition by coaches is that at least half the goals are the result of defensive error – - often towards the end of the game where fatigue and self imposed pressure of the clock winding down can lead to brain-explosions.
Scrappy AFL is often super high intensity – pressure, it ain’t easy y’know. Never take for granted the people who look like they have that extra little bit of time – because, there isn’t much – (in the ‘clinches’ – whatever they are!!!).
If you want to watch something that looks like a training drill – - well, normally that’s just what it is.
Scoring every 5 mins, well, depends, if my team scores every 5 mins they’ll get 24 goals for the day – I’ll be very, very happy with that. Doesn’t happen often.
The silly thing, I love test cricket just because of the notion of the delicate sway to and fro of the pendulum of game balance, and the potential of what might happen in the next period of play…….but, invariably, even more happens in the scorebook, on the scoreboard – y’know, we ‘games’ are measured – compared to most games of soccer. So much happens with no measurement. 0-0 at half time…..please, don’t show me the half time highlights……of nothing, what, near misses, a good save or 2. (near misses – that’s like showing the behinds). I remember Paul Wade gushing about Harry Kewell, “Is there nothing he can’t do”…..well, that particular day, he couldn’t score, he missed his chances……sometime, I realise that true soccerheads are absolutely sporting romantic tragics (good luck on that front). BUt – to enjoy watching good defence is like enjoying watching Chris Tavare or Geoff Boycott bat and that really was like watching paint dry or grass grow.
Cheers.
Westy said | March 2nd 2008 @ 4:32pm | Report comment
Redb… it is not the way the Swans play. You know as well as I there are a number of AFL teams that can strangle a game , pass across field or go backwards more times than go forward and make the game far from the spectacle it can be . This phenomena occurs in all sports. Its how you play the game. Its great seeing the Swans win but the game is often scrappy, involving hard tackling( league influenced) , hard at the ball tactics, controlling possession at all costs going for percentages.This may represent a lack of quality depth but is the style used to get to 2 grand finals. Sydney always tend to win close. It is the closeness of the scores that the Swans win by that often makes it exciting not the way they play. The difference with Geelong is they were at the best when thrashing someone.But have a close look at the depth of quality of their list.
Westy said | March 2nd 2008 @ 4:52pm | Report comment
Michael C…. Brutally Michael in a city of over 4 million it is not good. I am here and watch. With a few notable exceptions you basically have kids from one ethnic group and socio economic class. I have three boys who between them play the 4 codes and enjoy them. Sydney AFL is a little soft. The better players still play League or rep football or rugby on saturday for the competitive hard edge. If AFL wants to succeed it must unequivocally target and pool Quality young athletes in Sydney whilst it builds its 2nd team. You may not know these names but until the AFL gets athletes like Hayne, INu, Beale , turner, Tahu,Lawrence, Marshall etc and names you would know like Cahill and Kewell it does not even touch the quality gene pool in this city. These kids are here and harshly Sydney SWans has not got one yet. I am talking about the special ones.
Midfielder said | March 2nd 2008 @ 6:56pm | Report comment
Redb & MC
I agree with you and I am glad you enjoy AFL for full attacking game, with great ease at scoreing. Football when you get to know it is mainly about attacking but scoreing is difficult. Its not hard, given I can appreciate what you see and say good for you, why can you not grant me the same respect.
Westy, you raise and interesting point on junior quality, in the bad times whenever football had a talent they were often taken by other ffootball codes and cricket in that mid to late teen age, the Waugh brothers, Jeff Thompson as examples.
However today other codes will find it harder to get our best as the A-League grows. Bear in mind Australia still has 200 of its best football in Europe all who can play either AFL & NRL , and this number has been there or there about for about 10 years now. Add the 200 players in the A-league which means football has kept 400 players who 25 years ago would have converted to AFL or NRL. The impact of this on the AFL & NRL will not be felt for a few years but take the balance, vision, foot skill, angles being learned in football away from both AFL & NRL juniors and I think (maybe wrongly) that skill levels will fall in both codes, and the games will become more physical / faster………but less skillful.
Michael C said | March 2nd 2008 @ 9:21pm | Report comment
Midfielder -
I figure you still regard ‘great ease of scoring’ – - to me, that’s the problem – it’s not easy (yes, it’s easier than in soccer), but, again, people often forget that defense is easier than attack (that’s why I’m a born defender). It is easier to punch than to mark, it is easier to find space heading OUT of the backline than INTO the forward line (due to the shape of the ball) – - and, the increased interchange (4 available compared to previously 2 or in the old days 1 or 2 subs) – has actually probably done more to ensure defensive pressure is more able to be sustained over the full 4 qtrs. Good forwards are very hard to come by.
So – yes, it’s easier than scoring in soccer. But, not easy. And certainly, an attacking game of soccer with both teams trying to WIN is worth watching – all too often one team is purely trying to retain a clean score-sheet – that’s too much like facing a target of 350 in a ODI and deciding to just bat out 50 overs and make 240 – we like seeing a challenge issued and a challenge accepted – football should be like parliament, adversarial.
And AFL wise, my Rooboys back in 2006 looked like they weren’t even trying to win – there were games I attended that I had no desire to sit to the end -(it was niether entertaining nor developmentally encouraging) – and finally last year, even at 0-3 after 3 rounds, I was proud of the new displayed effort and could never have foresaw that they would end up top 4 – just by ‘having a go’. It’s the contest what which we all crave.
The little secret re AFL is when you have individual match ups all over the ground – that’s worth watching, from my perspective as a Roos man back in the ’90s we always anticipated especially the Carey-Jakovich match up playing v WCE. Or more recently our best ‘tagger’ Brady Rawlings running with a Chris Judd – - there are people with very specific roles – and those are often the highly critical shut-down defensive efforts – such as one of the very few times the Umps rewarded a fullback with 3 Brownlow votes when Silvagni did a job on Plugger.
btw – re. players. The conversion of kids from soccer to League – I doubt that many would realistically be progressing to top notch League (I could stand corrected here – but I’d suspect too vast a difference in games/skills/body physique). Given the participation rates – for soccer to actually refine their own talent pathway is the most critical thing. Use better what soccer already has.
Don’t overrate the balance/vision/foot skill the AFL would not gain if not via soccer. I know very, very few successful converters – growing up playing footy you develop vision, foot skills and balance pretty well – or perish – however, again, basketball as an allied sport is good for vision/decision making and hand/eye, soccer as an allied sport is good for balance/footskill etc as you say.
400 players you say. The NSL was formed in 1977, what, 14 teams? In fact, about 40+ different participating clubs over the journey. That figure of 400 wouldn’t be that much different to at any given time – and, given population increase since then, etc, there ought be a natural growth.
It’s still the challenge for soccer, the game of such ‘finesse’ and ‘touch’ and technical demand – the challenge is to develop more exclusive soccer kids – and retain them. To develop quality rather than just quantity – because, there’s no shortage of quantity – really, is there?
Westy –
and from the NRL – I think Greg Inglis would seriously be ‘convertable’ – - to me, look at Lance Franklin at Hawthorn and that could be Greg Inglis in footy.
Agreed re. the swans – they are at least doing more in recent times around listing local rookies, and I think ‘development’ coaches are improving. However, the ‘talent pathway’ statewide needed more work, and the AFL have taken learnings from QLD to NSW now. The next 4-5 years will be telling. I won’t say anything silly like ‘watch this space’…..but, you never know…
Westy said | March 2nd 2008 @ 10:25pm | Report comment
Michael C … that is the point. It is critical to build up pool of talented youngsters from Sydney ( even if on short term contracts with interstate clubs) flagged as available to any new club in Sydney. As you point out the next 5 years is critical. I have no trouble with any “footy”code offering elite juniors in my area opportunities. I have some loyalty to league because for a long time they were the only ones across the board who really did.Rugby is improving but has a long way to go. and football is finally getting its act together.I am patently aware that a new team can be started with 1 local eg. Melbourne Storm. However Western Sydney is not a continuous easliy identifiable region region but made up of discrete and distinct centres. The traction that would fast track in this region is to play local players. People here go for the game not necessarily the social event.This was not and still is not necessary for the Swans but here it could be decisive.
Midfielder said | March 2nd 2008 @ 10:49pm | Report comment
MC
The 400 kids they would not all have gone to AFL & NRL, but many would have in the old NSL days, the difference in wages and profile was such that many did change. Many still will, but not in the same numbers…………what NRL or AFL club would not have wanted the young Mark V or Timmy Cahill, Lucas Neil etc, At the Central Coast in Hal 1 Micheal Beauchamp would have been an ideal AFL player.
My simple point is many Australian football player across all codes start out playing football, and in the past many left in their teens, to other codes, ………MC all I am saying many of the talented ones are staying which is different to 20 years ago.
The easy to score, …………..MC please don’t even try to tell me it is hard to score in AFL by comparission to any of the other football codes you loose credibility if you do. Manybe esay is to harsh but hard no.
Westy ………….. football has more juniors in western Sydney than union and league have in total across Australia,…………..when the FFA finally move a team to Western Sydney they will have Australias best junior league (football that is) and a massive support base. The only reason I can think of FFA not moving one there already is to give NEW FOOTBALL time to seperate itself from OLD SOCCER. Why you ask because Western Sydney was the heart land of OLD SOCCER and many there still want back in the big time and they have clubs and money to do it. Uncle Frank wisely is not letting them back in and it is intersting that Blacktown or Penerith is were they will more than likely go (obivious to anyone looking at it) and that is were AFL are headed ……………very interesting times ahead.
Michael C said | March 3rd 2008 @ 9:48am | Report comment
Westy -
I take your points as always on Western Sydney –
re. talented pool – AFL is trying this ’scholarship’ thing for NSW. Again, trying to assist kids through their ‘junior’ finishing phase to be as good as they can be. I assume one of the main hopes is for the 2 NSW Indigenous acadamies to work similarly to the Clontarf model in WA and NT. If that happens, suddenly there might be an indigenous local player base to work with – which is probably a key to accessing ‘community’ on a non-superficial basis. (that’s generally what the govt’s, especially local govt’s like).
Midfielder -
the ‘easy’ to score bit – there’s a relativity that you might be overlooking.
In soccer, let’s say you have 12 attempts on goal for the game – and get one in. AFL, you might have 45 inside 50s, as they like to put it – and score 10 goals, or 13 goals. It’s still a case that the majority of forward advances are repelled. Let alone those attacking thrusts that didn’t enter the forward 50.
If kicking goals was easy, everyone would be doing it. And when they were, as with the early 90s, multiple century goal kickers such as Dunstall, Ablett, Lockett, Modra….well, they were just absolute champions of any era – and, the game was played a tad bit differently even then.
[is there currently too much focus on talented athletes and not enough of actual 'football smarts'?] (could be an article, that one)
FFA – hands a little tied, they want a ‘national competition’, but, presently, they have more than half the teams in NSW & QLD, and the next 2 are QLD, and most likely the next 2 after that will be NSW. Going too far down that path makes it just another NRL and ARU – generally ignoring the rest of the country. And, as Midfielder puts it, internally in NSW there are issues too. We know in Melbourne that many associated with South Melbourne Soccer club are peeved at being on the outer and are not getting behind MVFC….and it’s obvious SFC haven’t captured the affections of many – - – that’s why when the HAL apologists cite great crowds – - reality is, SFC especially is the disappointment and shows how much is still to be done. HAL as is, may have peaked and could easily turn into another NBL with the Sydney Kings, in the Grand Final – but broke and on the verge of not being able to pay their team to play the GF.
Midfielder said | March 3rd 2008 @ 10:35am | Report comment
MC
In very simple terms, ……and correct me if I am wrong………a normal type of score in AFL could be 9 , 11or 65 points plays 11 , 9 or 83 points. As I count it that is 40 goals in 120 mins or a goal every 3 mins. My only point is this much scoring does not get me …………….don’t think it ever will.
Your point on SFC is quite astute Hal 4 will be interesting maybe you are right it may go the way of Basket ball, but if it does not and is still standing in 10 years having grown a little each year the Australian sporting landscape I think anyway will be different.
MC I posted an article by a Melbourne jurno by the name of Richard Hinds on Saturday in the football wars thread and would be interested in your take on his article, prehaps in that thread so as not to confuse anyone reading this that has not read the article
Michael C said | March 3rd 2008 @ 11:56am | Report comment
Midfielder -
Re. Richard Hinds – It’s an interesting article, quite balanced. Mostly observational. I almost commented – but, sometimes I can be over the top on commenting and having the ‘last word’!!! (I was being restrained – but really, it’s not a bad ‘last word’ on that topic for now anyway).
re. 9-11-65 vs 11-9-75 (12-11-83 or 13-5-83).
20 goals, and 20 behinds. 40 scores. However, certainly only 20 goals. 1 every 6 minutes. That equates to 1 every 12 mins on average to your own team. That, in a game of soccer would equate to roughly a 5-5 or 6-4 style match. Would that be too much action? I know some folk would view that as glass half empty – i.e. ruddy crap defense. Others, glass half full – either good attacking/finishing or at very least – entertaining for the terraces.
I tend to agree in a sense with a comment in jest by Redb, and basically – the weather might be bleak in winter, so, why make your sport bleak and negatively geared too.
as an aside :
The goals and behinds and number of scores : That’s why the ‘footy record’ and a pen is pivotal to attending. Keeping score is perhaps best done by entering a 1,2,3 or 4 for each goal and behind to signify the quarter in which scored. As, a picket fence style listing of “IIIIIII” doesn’t tell you enough. (used to be the footy record was absolutely required as the score board would display the around the ground scores, but, prefixed by “G” vs “H” for example, so, you had to ‘decode’ it for that day – - that, and the racing info).
The dilemma after a score now, do you get it right in the record or look at the scoreboard replay.
The important thing is the dynamic nature of the game, the changing balance via the scoreboard. Similar to cricket in the sense that Australia has almost revolutionised modern test cricket by turning mere crease occupation into runs, and lots of them. If you don’t bowl Australia out, they score 400 in a day. Too many runs perhaps?? But, score board pressure is the only ‘REAL’ pressure.
In footy, you may dominate general play (as in soccer) and get no scoreboard reward. Invariably, in footy, if you fail to capitalise, then you will be hurt if you lose accendancy around the ground – because, you’ve just spent your fuel tickets and the opposition are likely to make you pay.
Often though, it still comes down to a quarter as being a mini game. Often an arm wrestle up to ‘time on’, or ‘red time’. And often it’s during this time that a quarter is won or lost – and that’s why aFL folk are so concerned about the quarter by quarter scores, it IS like 4 mini games in one. The best teams win the majority of quarters.
And, you’ve still got to experience those periods of a game where it’s goal for goal, lead changing, and the odd occassion of scores level – - for us, it’s such a novelty to get to 3/4 time with scores level – effectively, it MAY as well be 0-0. At any rate – the main difference is still the fact that Soccer CAN NOT have the ‘lead change’ with each score other than it goes from Team A, to level, to TEam A or B over the space of 2 goals scored. Which may not happen in the entire game, or may take 65 minutes to eventuate.
Is one superior to the other – or just different. At any rate, to me, basketball just too much scoring – but – then, I also dislike the notion of scoring a basket and the opposition get the ball!!!! Stuff ‘em, let them ‘win’ the ball in play – why do they deserve it because you scored a basket?!?!??
Max emery said | March 4th 2008 @ 2:52pm | Report comment
Hell, I’d stop AFL for a Gilligan’s Island cast reunion let alone a Soccer World Cup. Putrid sport.
If in the unlikely event that Australia does win the Soccer World Cup, AFL will make way for it whether they like it or not.
Midfielder said | March 4th 2008 @ 3:11pm | Report comment
Michael C
A goal every 12 mins would have both teams booed off the field, as I said watching defense and how to defend is a great part of the game. Especially if you are being scored against.
Don’t know how you don’t count a goal as as a goal if it gets a point.
Michael C said | March 4th 2008 @ 3:29pm | Report comment
Midfielder -
now – you are being mischievous trying to claim a behind as a goal.
I still maintain – and more so in soccer – defence is easy. Attack and successful conversion is the hard bit – which is generally why the good practioners of such make the real big bucks. Perhaps, before people became better athletes, and in general goalies increased in size by about 10 cm in height – back when goals might be ‘relatively easier’ to come by – perhaps then the attitude was more appreciative of scoring and games that changed in nature a little more often due to the changing nature of the scoreboard. It’s not that foreign a concept – just need the goals to get a bit bigger again.
The object of the game is surely to score – otherwise, how else to you propose to win?
Let me stress the point –
AFL – 1 goal (kicked cleanly by attacking team) = 6 points.
1 behind (scored by a variety of manners, including what in soccer terms would be an accepted full point(s) goal – i.e. ‘own goal’, touched ball or defelction off wood work, or deflection off a part of body not deemed to be a kick) = 1 point.
Most certainly – in the AFL definition of a ‘GOAL’, a behind IS NOT a goal. However, by the soccer definition – which is far more liberal – I can understand your confusion.
At any rate – how many fewer goals would there be in soccer if you had to actaully only ‘kick’ them yourself? without deflection……you’d then have about 1 goal every 4 games.
Then you’d be in sporting nirvana I imagine, oh, such wonderful defense as must be seen to be believed…….
btw – again though – Aust footy perhaps should only count behinds on countback should goals be level. That is always a criticism I can handle – as, I’m the only person I’ve seen or heard raise it!!!! However, a greater than 1 pt value for a goal is not at all strange in a sporting sense. Soccer – true – the simple game – allows anything to count as a goal and only requires counting by 1’s to a maximum as provided by fingers on hands. Excellent! Simple that is, until you need to correctly adjudicate the off-side……..a constant source of angst and frustration.
—-
There’s no perfect games – just different games. That’s the whole point.
Max Emery -
People such as yourself are the greatest enemy of soccer in this country. Attitudes such as yours will only create enemies.
Slippery Jim said | March 6th 2008 @ 7:45pm | Report comment
Max Emery, you have created a friend in me! Well said new buddy.
john Ryan said | March 7th 2008 @ 7:43pm | Report comment
Good on you Max Emery
Marc in Johannesburg said | March 7th 2008 @ 9:39pm | Report comment
Thanks Max “the axe” Emery
Dos of Adelaide said | March 8th 2008 @ 1:10pm | Report comment
Children of the Revolution,
Children = Playing Football (round ball)
Revolution = Football (round ball)
Australia in 10 Years time = Children grown up and playing the Round ball game.
You wont fool the children of the revolution…
Methinks you’re part of a dying breed here Micky C, Natural Selection tells me you either start following the real Football soon or start dying out like the rest of them…
P.S cheers for getting those stats for me i was looking to see how much the average A-League crowd numbers had risen V.3. :]
martin buchan said | March 10th 2008 @ 12:33am | Report comment
recently found a book called a thousand years of football.also talks about football dating back two thousand years ago in japan , had its rules set in 1863 . afl claimed 100 years of aussie rules in 96 also claimed it began in 1858 with two trees at either end of a field with a round ball based on the game of rugby didnt settle on the oval ball till 1867 and even then they were still using the round ball for another ten years so it would seem to me that the game of aussie rules wasnt truly established till the 1880 s. you see we can make claim s that the real game of football began way before your morron gook . even tom wills himself tried to introduce a crossbar into aussie rules , theres also a documented game played in aberdeen scotland in1766 .the oldest football found was in scotland dateing back to the 17th century, some form of football was also played in perth scotland inthe13th century there are many claims made on the game but the most natural form of the game is football not the handball game when the eagles won the aussie rules comp they played more handballs than actual kicks .more rule changes to be made in order to stay top dog season after season . give us a break the best thing for assie rules is the exposure it will get when the world cup arrives here. just remember this, the game of football is determed by its rules,an aussie rules player will not remain on the park for very long if hes more interrested in playing the man and not the ball in the game of football .quick goal gratification is not always reqiuerd. theres a union jack on your flag the last time i looked
Midfielder said | March 10th 2008 @ 8:52am | Report comment
MC
Sorry cannot see how when a point is scored when the goal goes between two posts it is not a goal.
Makes little difference to my arguement …………..a goal scored every 3 or 6 mins is way to much, even the 6 min goal has a one point goal in the middle. As I said I simply do not like high scoring games.
Millster said | March 10th 2008 @ 11:10am | Report comment
The bottom line (sourced from FoxSports this weekend):
“Hosting a Football World Cup can be worth tens of billions of dollars to a country’s economy. The 2002 tournament added $27 billion to the GDP of Korea Republic and Japan, more than 10 times what the 2003 Rugby World Cup was worth to Australia.
Simply preparing a bid can be a boon given the planning and costing for improved transport links and sporting infrastructure that is required, which is why Buckley has been on a charm offensive of state governments in the past few weeks to show the benefit of signing up to the bid.”
Michael C said | March 11th 2008 @ 9:37am | Report comment
Millster -
certainly, I’ve seen the figures estimated for Sth Africa, and economic benefit about 15-20 times that of the ICC World Cup.
That’s beyond dispute.
No one would say it’s not worth hosting.
The preparing of a bid however, that’s less tangible, their an implicit benefit if that planning/costing etc is something that will otherwise be workeable and beneficial, and isn’t happening anyway – and, in reality, should be. That’s a less tenuous link really, and perhaps more just marketing spin to sell the notion of bidding for biddings sake.
Much prefer the $30-50 be funnelled into the country retain an F1 GP – even though I don’t care 2 hoots about car racing. That’s an annual event.
Midfielder said | March 11th 2008 @ 10:01am | Report comment
MC
Sydney won the olympics …………………there is a chance ………….and to have a go at it………….it needs funding.
THB all sport in Australia will benefit, and so to will the australian economy if it is won, and sometimes just to be in the race is good for the nation.
Michael C said | March 11th 2008 @ 10:16am | Report comment
Martin Buchan -
perhaps you might want to refer to my article on the AFL tab suggesting that we are in fact celebrating 150 years since a game of rugby in Melbourne. I have no dispute that many Aust Footy scholars and others alike seem a little blinded by what Rugby is today as to the actual rules played post 1845. Certainly Thomas Wills ‘exported’ the game of Rugby to Australia – and henceforth, in Melbourne the ‘evolution’ of a locally appropriate game began.
At what time was it clearly identifiable as the ‘local game’. That’s a reasonable question.
However, likewise, we can ask how much the school game of Rugby can be recognised versus the 1871 establishment of the RFU. Or, that whilst the London FA established in 1863, their rules provided explicitly for NO x-bar and allowed fair catches, and, only upon merging with the Sheffield Association did soccer more clearly become the game we know now – and that was in the mid/late 1870s.
Note – the game between Melb Grammer and Scotch College is celebrated annually by a game between those institutions. And it was certainly an important element in getting the ‘ball rolling’ for the locals to determine their own take on ‘football rules’. Next year, Melbourne FC can most certainly celebrate it’s 150th birthday. Should the AFL then also celebrate that too? (there’s a good argument to say ‘yes’). Certainly the cetenary season of the VFL/AFL was worth celebrating – however, with the flipside being that it stressed that the competition STILL IS the expanded VFL. Which it is. So long as people were comfortable with that, then fine. And that’s the separation of the single competition from the ‘game’ in general. Aust Footy is bigger and broader than the AFL. Local competitions are joining in the celebrations, and, certainly the VAFA in which clubs such as Melbourne Gammar Old Boys and (Old) Scotch etc play – as particular reason to celebrate.
Which is what we’re really saying – the notion of ‘playing football’ is as old as recorded history. The rules themselves are not overly relevant. They so often reflect more upon the ‘local environment’ as anything else.
Who ‘owns’ ‘FOOTBALL’. No one. The fact that there are ‘local variants’ around the world is part of the ‘rich tapestry’ of culture and history pre-globalisaiton.
btw – many of the local ‘village’ versions (highway versions if you wish?) involved simply two mobs trying to move a ‘ball’ from one point to another. By what ever means possible. I don’t know how much nicety of technical kicking occurred.
You’re historical reference is become a little selective and a little ‘washed’.
Your final points.
In Aust Football – as played currently, you play the man with the ball. Just as in soccer the man in possession can be tackled, and some more delicately than others, I’ve seen (including recently) some mighty fine leg ‘explosions’ due to the delicate nature of tackling with BOOTS rather than above the knees and below the shoulders as is the legal tackle in Aust Footy, and not involving pushing in the back.
I agree that handball can be over used. I’m a great believer in precision via foot. Alas, certain rule ‘tweaks’ seem to have encouraged this. I’d love to have a chat with the rules of the game folk. There appears a ‘genetic engineering’ style plan to ‘modify’ the game into something that it may or may not have become anyway.
Quick goal ‘gratificatin’. That’s interesting. THat seems the main argument of some. As a supporter, in Aust Footy, there are enough quarters that you sit through wondering where your first goal will come from, enough scoreless periods of play. The fact is that what you denegrate as ‘quick goal gratification’ can be alternately regarded as fair reward for effort. Much in the style of an egalitarian social-democratic society that believes in a ‘fair go’. A fair days pay for a fair days work. THerefore, the notion of the scoreboard more often than not being a fair refection of the effort applied on the park seems in keeping. Quick gratification is a coarse and perhaps ignorant comment.
Union Jack – should I call you “RObert Gordon MEnzies” —- who insisted, even after the debacle of the fall of Singapore that Australia still was (as he described himself) “British to my bootstraps”. Alas, we’ve moved on. The sooner we become a REpublic and get rid of that ridiculous colonial/imperial subjugating rag masquerading as a ‘national emblem’ the better.
Midfielder -
see above re ‘reward for effort’.
I’m not much for the notion of playing 90 minutes for a zero ‘reward’. How does that provide anyone a sense of achievement. Played 90 minutes and we couldn’t score. Wow….aren’t we glad we made the effort to come out today.
Alas, in my junior footy days, we got drubbed a few times, 30 goals to maybe 1. But, on our good days against a reasonably even competitor, we could get our 10 goals or so, play a close game, and after the game more people are happier, they can talk about the goals they contributed to or scored. And if you made a mistake that let through a goal or two to the opposition – that’s okay, because, it happens, your not the pariah becuase you conceded the only goal of the game to the team that beat you. Especially should that score happen very late in the game – because, you know, that the first goal conceded in the first quarter was just as crucial as the last one. You don’t go blaming people. You just work out how you can score more goals the next time yourself…..because….yes, IT IS ABOUT ACCUMULATING A WINNING SCORE. This is a discussion for elsewhere however.
FUnny how you soccerheads have dragged the conversation here. Ever wonder why some people get entirely sick of the self righteoness of soccer evangelists and fundamentalists.
I’ve already stated, I’d love to see the FIFA World Cup in Australia.
I doubt we’ll get it.
And it’s nice we’ve had the Olympics – - twice remember, Melbourne, Australias first Olympic city.
I do think however, the FIFA World Cup is more desired at present than the Olympics. I think it’s a bit easier to run a tournament for 32 teams playing the one sport than it is to accomodate 180 countries worth of athletes playing in such a wide variety of sports/events.
So – yes, we got the Olympics – but, the FIFA WC – a totally different matter – and Australia isn’t the beacon country in Asia that it might like to think it might be.
Millster said | March 11th 2008 @ 10:30am | Report comment
MC – I challenge you to go to any supporter of a Crapsville FC playing against a much stronger team, getting a 0-0 draw against the odds, and claiming that to be ‘zero reward’.
Some of the most glorious days in the 100+ history of football clubs are not their 5-0, 6-0, or 7-0 wins against equals, but their brave draws (or even occasionally wins) against infinitely stronger oposition. For a recent example, look up a club called Havant and Waterlooville, a team described as “part-timers, cabbies and teachers”. Every single person associated with that club will be feeling years if not decades of reward for a scoreline that you scorn.
Max emery said | March 11th 2008 @ 11:03am | Report comment
“Max Emery -
People such as yourself are the greatest enemy of soccer in this country. Attitudes such as yours will only create enemies.”
Michael C.
Incorrect. The people who cause Soccer problems are people like Simon Hill and other Soccer journos who have the odd pointless dig at the other codes. What they do is alienate the casual fan who could turn into a true fan. I am not a Soccer journo and the impact of me saying that AFL is a crap sport is negligible.
It’s crap. Vile, disgusting, unco-filled crap.
I’ve followed Soccer (Yes I still call it Soccer too), mainly the English variety, for 40 years, but my first love is Rugby League. I would welcome the Soccer World Cup and would be happy to forego my NRL for a couple of months to have the opportunity to see the world’s best Soccer players in Sydney.
I find the attitude of the original writer hilarious. I can imagine reaction when FIFA is told the AFL would like to be briefed on the possible World Cup in Australia.
“Why would the Arena Football League want to know about that” ?
Michael C said | March 11th 2008 @ 11:21am | Report comment
Millster -
exactly – and that highlights the ‘ROMANCE’ of soccer.
It’s not an overly pragmatic, rational game – because, it CAN allow a seemingly hopelessly outclass opponent to just turn the game into trench warface circa 1915 and walk away happy because of the MAD (mutually assured draw) strategy. That a team successfully contained the damage – good work, the levee held, I can understand the sense of a job well done, like saving the town from the bushfire.
However, the flip side of that – and perhaps it’s because this (Melb) is a ‘footy’ city – is that there were no complaints about doing in Ade Utd 6-0 in the GF. HOwever, just why then did the crowds drop away when MVFC kicked off with a couple of uninspiring 0-0 results in their first home games – just how many hours of nothing can people sit through.
Look – there are some virtuous draws….in soccer….where a draw is about a 30% likely result and is more regarded – and – relatively, doesn’t PUNISH a team for NOT winning as much as codes where winning and losing is more of a 50/50 proposition. I come from a perspective where a draw is really just a waste of an afternoon. You headed out seeking the 4 points. THat, relative to making the finals, the 4 pts for the win is the only important thing because, sure as heck, none of the teams you’re competing with to make the finals will have drawn on the weekend. A draw to the culture of Aust Footy is a nothing result. For us, maybe a virtuous or ‘noble’ loss may exist – that’s debatable…….but…..still, on the ‘ladder’, you’re only going backwards (relatively) – and that also applies to a draw – unless the teams you’re fighting with all lost, in which case, you are in a position where, you’ll probably be 2 pts off-set the rest of the season and percentage no longer is an issue.
I do recognise that a Test Cricket Match can be a riveting draw. In general, however, a draw in cricket is a non-event, due to inclement weather or rubbish batters paradise pitches.
btw – similar to the scenario you describe is the team that wins 1 game in 3 years. Struggling for numbers, have guys playing seniors and reserves, have 14 yr olds playing 3rds in the norning, sitting on the bench in the 2s and the 1s…….and, that one day, the planets align, and they pull out the win that, to that town, that district, is like a premiership……..and they got to sing the song because…….they actually won.
Can winning and romance sit side by side? Is the scenario I just described cruel – would they be better off playing soccer where mediocrity can be rewarded (or punished less). ['mediocrity being rewarded' - - perhaps a coarse and ignorant comment - but, just as fair an appraisal as 'quick goal gratification']
Michael C said | March 11th 2008 @ 11:34am | Report comment
Max Emery -
The irony is I can well sympathise with Mr.Hill regarding being driven to action. I could well sympathise with him the frustration in a city with one of the major news papers owned by the people who half own the ‘major game’ in town.
as the original writer – given that it is largely a hypothetical – the angle of the article was to inspire a little discussion (that’s happened) and a little thought.
My primary attitude is that :
The FIFA world cup would be great – in Australia – but I really, really doubt us getting it. [GIven the scrapping of rotation policy - officially - but, we now see an effective minimum 3 WC cyclical rotation policy - we know that Europe WILL get it every 12 years, i.e. a Confed can't host it that has hosted one of the last 2 WC's. And Europe need that in place ASAP, the soonest they CAN host it is 2018. They WILL host it in 2018, so then the next one is 2030. That can almost be a given. It's the 2 in between that will be the 'possibles'. And, sure as heck, for 2022, FIFA will be hoping the post Olympics CHina will be keen to maintain their world momentum and host the WC. That'll lock Australia OUT until at earliest 2034. That's my opinion. Feel free to tell me there's less than 50% chance of that outcome.]
But-
were we to host the FIFA WC, it’d be fabulous, I’d love to take overseas visitors to the MCG on Friday night for 85,000 to see Collingwood vs Carlton (even as a NOrth Melb supporter) and then go with them on Tuesday evening to Telstra Dome, along with another 50K to watch Saudi Arabia vs Tunisia. Love it, love it, love it — it’d be the greatest boost ever seen for the (non AFL funded nor ‘encouraged’) evolutionary growth of Aust Footy overseas outside of the ex-pat population.
Millster said | March 11th 2008 @ 12:12pm | Report comment
MC – on your previous post, I’d very much hope that the MCG had better use during a World Cup than Collingwood Vs Carlton (which, during such an event, should be surely played at Princes Park or suchlike, or perhaps be taken out to Bendigo, Ballarat, etc to give the locals a bit of the Melbourne action). On a Friday night during an World Cup, surely the MCG shold be hosting one of the world’s top 10 footballing nations, not a couple of suburban teams in a regular domestic league fixture of a very local code. What you are suggesting is nothing short of a dismal waste of a world-class facility during what would be the biggest event in Australia’s history.
And on your post before, I’ve sat through plenty of ‘hours of nothing’ in AFL too. Quarters where one of the team is so outplayed that it’s more like watching a shooting gallery than a sporting match. Games that are done and dusted well before half time. And unlike soccer, in a high-scoring code there is ABSOLUTELY no chance that a freak counter-attack against the run of play can bring the game back to life. Totally snooze-worthy…
Max emery said | March 11th 2008 @ 12:23pm | Report comment
Michael, I have no sympathy for Simon Hill when he tries to ignite interest in Soccer by maligning the other codes. It’s like the stupid “Call it Football” debate, no one outside Soccer circles gives a toss what Soccer people call it.
The problem is a simple one for Soccer in this country;
When I spend my hard-earned to see sport live, I want to see the best. I can do that with the NRL and if I chose to I could do that with Rugby Union and even, God forbid, AFL. The supporters of those three sports see the best in the world regularly, unfortunately the same cannot be said for Soccer supporters in Australia.
As much as I love Soccer the A League just isn’t up to scratch and no amount of chest-beating is going to change that. I followed the A League for its first two seasons but I gave up halfway through this season because the quality was abysmal. People like myself who are used to watching the best in action, the A League will struggle to get me interested again.
By the way, there’s a snowflake’s chance in hell of us getting the Soccer World Cup in the next 20 years. Anyone who thinks differently has problems….
As has anyone who thinks that FIFA or Soccer in general would give two hoots if the AFL wants to be briefed should Australia actually be a shot at hosting the World Cup….
BTW, AFL sucks.
Millster said | March 11th 2008 @ 12:37pm | Report comment
But Max – what does ‘best in the world’ mean? I could invent a sport call Millster-ball and I’d be best in the world. Surely it only means something if enough of the world actually play the thing!! (I’m arguing this mainly on principle mind you, and I’m not implying that League or AFL players aren’t highly skilled, just that ‘the world’ is a very small world for those sports).
PS: I happen to agree that we won’t get the WC at first try. But that shouldn’t stop us putting our hand up… or we never will.
Midfielder said | March 11th 2008 @ 12:38pm | Report comment
MC
You said “FUnny how you soccerheads have dragged the conversation here. Ever wonder why some people get entirely sick of the self righteoness of soccer evangelists and fundamentalists”
EVER HEAR OF THE JAG CALLING THE ALFA EXPENSIVE
Towser said | March 11th 2008 @ 1:05pm | Report comment
Max
This I can see the best in the world argument for NRL,RU,AFL but I cant for football in the A-league is garbage.
Are there players flooding here from around the globe to play in these competitions of course not.
There in the main Australian players the same as the A-League. So are you saying that in these sports nobody else in other countries can produce better players and we’ve produced a pool of supermen who cannot be bettered by the other 6 billion people on the planet,but in football our players are mere mortals.,so we’d better not watch them because the Poms or the Brazilians produce a master race of players.
The argument becomes even more flawed when you take into consideration that there are in fact more footballers participating than these other sports in Australia. Many more in the case of RU and RL.
So we know its a nonsense to believe that these players in the NRL,RU,AFLare not supermen but the same flesh and blood Australians who play in the A-League. In other words the reality is that as far as Australia goes the A-league and the 3 others are on a level playing field. Until these sports are played throughout the world like football they are the best in Australia, like the A-League ,not the world
In fact I could mount a case that the A-League is on a higher level than these sports.
One we have access to returning Socceroos who have played at a higher level than “Australian “sports and two we can, if a club is able to afford, it bring in a world class marquee player. Plus there is a handy second tier of players in the world in countries where a professional league is economically not viable. Meaning Africa,Asia,Even South America and Eastern Europe. We just have to be smart in getting them here rather than Japan or Korea or lesser European competitions.
The myth that these comps are the best in the world is just that a myth.
Redb said | March 11th 2008 @ 1:14pm | Report comment
Does anyone know if the NFL had to move games to accomodate the soccer World Cup in the USA a few years ago? My bet is no.
Therefore what is being asked is unique in that domestic sports that are in direct competition are being asked to step aside in the middle of their season. You can say what you like about AFL, but it does have a huge vested interest in this country and it enjoys world standard crowd levels that require big stadiums. I’m sure this is a new thing for FIFA and whilst they don’t give a stuff, doesn’t make it right. The AFL and NRL should be well compensated at the very least by the Fed Govt who are now bank-rolling the bid with our/my money.
Now if only the World Cup was scheduled in the soccer season in Australia this wouldn’t be a problem. That’s when I’m happy as a tax payer to host the Soccer World Cup. Insular maybe, selfish yes, my first love is the footy.
cheers
Redb
Max emery said | March 11th 2008 @ 1:15pm | Report comment
Millster,
That’s a very long bow you’re drawing there.
All 4 codes have been going 100 years or more, give me a call when Millster-ball has been going that long.
The NRL, AFL and Super 14 are the best of their sport, or close to it. I am able to, if I choose, to see them live on a regular basis but to see what I’d call “decent quality” Soccer I’d need a plane ticket to Europe or South America. The nicest thing about the A League I can say is that it’s the best of its sport, in Australia.
I’d be more than happy if Soccer took off in a big way in this coutry, I think there’s room for it, but it won’t happen whilst we are being served up A League quality Soccer.
I’d rather watch Rushenden and Diamonds v Milwall than Sydney v Melbourne.
Towser said | March 11th 2008 @ 1:24pm | Report comment
Max
As you’d rather watch third rate ‘Pommie” football over your own, I’ve catered for you by starting an opinion peice about the divided loyalties in football in Australia.
Millster said | March 11th 2008 @ 1:34pm | Report comment
Max – I’ll put away my long bow for long enough to agree that there is still a long way to go quality-wise for football in Australia.
The problem is in comparison. I agree with ‘best of sport’ but that can be at an awfully low level and we actually wouldn’t know any better for lack of external reference points. The question that Towser poses is theoretically interesting in this respect – is the sporting quality of the A-League that much lower than that of the NRL and AFL, or is it comparable with the key difference being simply that the global top level of the sport is so much higher?
PLEASE note that I’m playing with theory here. My often stated view overall on such things is 4-fold:
1. I respect the skill and play inherent in each sport and don’t think they can be compared down to the last detail
)
2. Each sport has areas where it needs to be humble (eg. AFL and NRL for small closed markets, A-League for on and off field infancy and modest standards by global comparison)
3. Fans have the right to enjoy whatever they like without being bagged out for it. Just because I like my footbal one way doesn’t mean that MC can’t like his another (even if that makes him a poor deluded sod
4. While administrators are in a comercial ‘zero-sum-game’ competition, we fans don’t have to be. I prefer football but I like a country where I have other options to enjoy from time to time.
Max emery said | March 11th 2008 @ 1:38pm | Report comment
Towser.
You seem to think I’m giving Soccer a serve, I’m not, I’m a Soccer fan. I’m telling everyone exactly why I, a soccer fan, don’t go to A League games.
The point is a simple one and in my opinion its inarguable, serve up the good stuff and we’ll go or we’ll watch. Crapping on with a theory that A League players are, in comparison, equal to their NRL, AFL or S14 counterparts is nonsense.
If a Soccer player is world class, he doesn’t play in the A League. If an Australian Football, Rugby League or Rugby Union player is world class, chances are he play in the AFL, NRL or S14 respectively.
When we have the 200 odd Australians currently playing in Europe playing here, we’ll go or we’ll watch.
When Kewell, Cahill and Co. ply their trade on these good shores, we’ll go or we’ll watch.
With those guys, comes the quality the A League needs.
Hell, David Beckham filled two rather large stadia on his lonsome and he’s hardly world class any more.
The problem is that we’re not easily conned. You can’t make me think the A League is of a decent quality when I’ve seen it and know it isn’t. You can’t make me think there’s some Syndey / Central Coast tribal rivalry when I know it’s 20 years away. You can’t convice me the atmosphere is fantastic because people like to sing because I’ve never felt the need to sing at an NRL game simply because I am too busy watching the game.
If you’re going to con anyone con AFL fans, anyone stupid enough to follow that sport should jump at the chance to watch some C Grade Soccer.
When it turns the corner, when I can watch a few weeks of A League that aren’t cringeworthy, I’ll get off my arse and go to a game. Until then, I’ll keep following the English Soccer, going to internationals (expcept the B Grade ones where the side is made up of A League players) and hoping that one day I’ll get my wish.
BTW, AFL sucks.
Max emery said | March 11th 2008 @ 1:43pm | Report comment
“Max
As you’d rather watch third rate ‘Pommie” football over your own, I’ve catered for you by starting an opinion peice about the divided loyalties in football in Australia.”
Well, third rate Pommy Soccer is better than the A League unfortunately.
Max emery said | March 11th 2008 @ 1:55pm | Report comment
Millster, I understand the argument but it doesn’t make the A League any more palatable to someone who has actually followed Soccer for any length of time.
There were A League games I watched this year that were no better than park footy. And not just one, they were plentiful early in the season and they were there at the end too. I stopped watching after 4 or 5 weeks in and tried again with a semi and the final. Same stuff as I’d seen earlier, awful. The odd gem doesn’t make up for them, it really doesn’t.
The A League GF was an awful game saved by a bit of aggro at the end.
Millster said | March 11th 2008 @ 2:15pm | Report comment
Max – ok I get your point. I still think though that you need to be a little more humble and careful than you are being in terms of ‘world class’. There really is no such thing in terms of AFL, nor in all honestly in NRL.
In those sports ‘world class’ is the Aussie domestic comp because it isn’t played at any meaningful level (or with any significant tradition or critical mass) anywhere else. This means that ‘world class’ is pretty much whatever skill level the home market happens to be settled at, with no external reference point. The ‘best’ play AFL and NRL because there aren’t any other places for them to go. Its just all very, very insular and closed.
How would/could you rate A-League if no professional leagues existed overseas – not even your third rate pommy guys?
My issue is not to fundamentally bag AFL or NRL, but is to highlight that you’re criticising one sport based on holding it up against a true global standard, which simply doesn’t exist for the others. Apples and oranges.
Towser said | March 11th 2008 @ 2:33pm | Report comment
Max
No I dont think your giving football a serve,I think your giving local football a serve.
A serve I have heard many times over the years ,hence my opinion peice to find out why.
To be honest anybody who believes that third rate Pommy football is better than the A-League should stick to the NRL as you’ve already deemed it to be world class and wont be disappointed,because the standard of football your seeking will never be seen in this country.
Personally I’m well pleased with the A-League, as are obviously many other Australians.
I have followed overseas football all my life and remember saying the same thing you said about the NSL until the A-league came along.
Believe me watching overseas football on TV is not the same as being at a match.
Sure you dont see the silky skills of the EPL or the Serie A but the commitment and intensity is there and as this season has shown once again it is an evenly balanced competition.
Overseas football is sometimes a TV figment of peoples imagination being bigger and better because its over there,well after staying up to watch last years boreathon called the FA Cup Final its not all of the time ,just like any sport.
Michael C said | March 11th 2008 @ 2:35pm | Report comment
Gee – that’s just exploded…..
COuld I just say – AFL is well served by having NO overseas comparison.
Basketball IS NOT.
Everything else is fighting it’s own battle to retain ‘domestic league’ relevance amidst position in partial, semi, total global capacities.
I’ve often said that the big advantage of AFL is it’s disadvantage in the eyes of many. i.e. not being international. And also, a 22 round season – not as long and draw out as say a 25-38 round season. The A-League, I know many people want it to be minimum 30 rounds. But – that may be it’s greatest danger. That just may not be sustainable unless a few more soccer diehards get on board.
Millster – I am forced to defend the following statement:
“in a high-scoring code there is ABSOLUTELY no chance that a freak counter-attack against the run of play can bring the game back to life. Totally snooze-worthy…”
2001, Essendon, lost only one game in 2000, the reigning premier. North Melb, the power of the mid/late 90s, on the decline and minus Carey and Stevens (the irony). 2000 finals, Essendon 198 clobbered North 73 in first week of finals.
Qtr time – a 10 goal margin. Who too? THe rank underdog on the day.
Scored for game
NM 12.1.73 – 16.1.97 – 22.4.136 – 25.9.159
Ess 2.3.15 – 12.4.76 – 19.8.122 – 27.9.171
Okay – it’s a standout game, not just the 58 pt qtr time turn around, but, the fact that North had kicked out to about a 12 goal lead midway through the 2nd qtr. (however, listening at home I was just hoping and praying that we’d get to half time with at leat an 8 goal lead – alas, it was whittled back to 4 goals – and, a 4 goal lead is NOTHING with half a game to play).
examples though from 2007 – just to prove I don’t dwell in romance land based on 1 game in a decade.
59% of AFL games were won by team leading at qtr time who then lead at each other ‘break’.
34% of games saw first qtr leader lose.
The average ‘turn around’ being from a 10 pt lead to a 21 pt loss.
The biggest turn around was 104 pts, 20 pt lead squandered to an 84 pt loss.
A couple of nice examples being a 29 pt deficit converted to a 1 pt win
and CArlton famously came from 38 down a qtr time to trump Essendon by 3 pts.
Ah, gee, close games NOT contrived by overly negative and restrictive rules and ’structures’, but, close by virtue of a 4 qtr battle with ebbs and flows.
btw – only 9% of games had the scores level at any of the major breaks (including final scores).
but, at least no team went home having NOT scored.
ANyway – a few years back I heard the Dean Jones theory for ODI’s batting first, being that you don’t start going the ‘tonk’ until the number of overs remaining is equal to the number of wickets in hand. Obviously a ‘loose’ rule.
Well, in footy, anything is possible – but, once the number of minutes remaining is less than the number of goals required then you are pushing excrement up hill……it can be done, but, you need more luck than just good management. However, momentum is a funny thing…..and, no doubt that same argument would be put that even with 5 mins to go, you can cite an example of Man Utd about 5 years ago kicking 3 goals in 5 odd mins to win 3-2 or something like that. But – for that, I’d be thinking that you’d be trawling back about 10 years….heck, even the Juventus game in ‘99 was only a 3-2 comeback from 0-2 about 10 mins in, so, yeah, 3 goals to win, in the next 80 minutes…..so, 0-2 with 5 to go, is that realistically, in 95% of cases – absolutely game over – similar to AFL scenario of say 5 goals down with 5 to go.
btw – in AFL, often it’s a 2 or 3 goal game with about 5 mins to go, next goal could effectively ‘win’ the game (as wierd as that sounds), if the leading team score it, then, they should be right and often ‘blow the game out’ with a couple of junk time goals – if the trailing team get it, then, again, ‘game on’ for those last 5 mins. The ball returning to the centre of the ground for a neutral re-start plays a part.
Michael C said | March 11th 2008 @ 3:21pm | Report comment
One element of ‘world class’ is purely the appropriately ‘conditioned’ athletes from various nations battling it out.
The reality is that quite often, a particular country might be dominant such that the ‘greatest’ contest would be the A team vs the B team from that countries ‘domestic talent pool’. At various time is recent years that could be said of Australia in cricket.
What can be measurably ‘world class’ can be:
Training and conditioning facilities and ’science’ (personnel included)
Training KPIs (i.e. world wide recognised key indicators of ‘elite’ or ‘world class’ conditioning having been achieved – - i.e. world class athletes, – - but, no judgement whatsoever on skill, sports nous/talent etc, purely conditioning).
And this is the thing that get’s missed in some discussions.
The line about 1 in 300,000 being the representative ‘quality’ of a sport vs another being 1 in 800. That’s a single ‘measure’.
However, at a certain level, it’s the foundational counditioning of the athletes that will have a big say in their ability to play at whatever highest level and really be considered world class athletes (within a team combative sport).
On that basis – it may well be that the top 20% of NRL and AFL at any given time are indeed world class ‘athletes’. Whether they are ‘world class performers’ is another issue altogether. That may be a little more subjective, as, depending upon their role in their particular sport – someone from a different perspective just may not rate what they do.
And, so, at the end of the day – there may only be so many ‘genetic freaks’ per million population, but, I’d rather the sport I watch and love (especially as an aspirational child) to NOT be the exclusive domain of ‘genetic freaks’ or the top 0.001 percentile of body types who then must also be super athletes (no, look, genetic freaks still holds – - yes, I’m thinking US basketball here). I don’t mind the AFL, NRL scenarios, you can get there with a good ounce of talent and a whole lot more determination and work ethic. That means, a child CAN be engaged with the hope of getting there – not just if they are lucky enough to be a certain size or absolutely blissfully possessing of freakish skills.
So – if the knockers want to claim that Kieran Jack is a small unco kid (irrespective of blood lines) and therefore, the AFL are welcome to him, well, I’d counter with – if he is good enough and able to ‘make it’ then the AFL will gladly accept him. (just as an example).
Redb said | March 11th 2008 @ 3:22pm | Report comment
Michael C,
It was joy reading thsoe match stat again re Ess V Nth Melb – love that game. Carn the Dons.
cheers
Redb
Millster said | March 11th 2008 @ 3:32pm | Report comment
“but, at least no team went home having NOT scored.”… “games NOT contrived by overly negative and restrictive rules and structures”
I’ve seen you write this a few times.
Perhaps an indicator of a game contrived by overly positive and unrestrictive rules, and by lack of structure…?? (I’m sure followers of both rugby codes would join me in that question)
In support of that I note that your “super-game” example had an aggregate score of a whopping 330 points! To use a more meaningful number, 70 scoring shots! Holy cow was there time for any decent gameplay, any tactical subtlety, nuance, tension, your beloved ‘ebb and flow’ between all the frantic pinging away at the sticks?
PS I was thinking of you while enduring the delayed telecast of the NAB cup final. Right result of course (being a somewhat Saints supporter) but goddamn it didn’t paint your game in good light overall.
Michael C said | March 11th 2008 @ 3:35pm | Report comment
Redb -
Oh, sheesh, I forgot I’d be bringing back to you a fond, fond memory……alas, best I can do is remind of the marshmallows ‘era’.
That game though, the negative types would lament the ‘lack of accountability’.
btw – seems the French have indicated they might be a chance to come out for the IC 2008. The thing about it being, they had no idea who or how to contact (in) the AFL – they contacted the people at the independant WorldFootynews.com website. The AFL has only really recently thought they might have to become the ‘world governing body’. Not by design, but by necessity. It’s funny to see it unfold – and for those who poopoo Aust Footy internationally – this is the real situation – the AFL doesn’t really want it – and are being forced down the path {so, please people, none of the rot about having an AFL WC etc, this is NOT AFL planning – they aren’t good enough to kick off competitions in 20 countries through Europe, Nth America, Asia, Pacifc etc – really they aren’t that good.}. Partly I think they are too ‘embarrassed’ to be seen to be promoting it until such time that there’s a major ‘watershed’ moment (i.e. first kid recruited 100% from a Sth Africa or somewhere). At least however, they are now,finally, giving better ’service’ via their ‘international’ tab on the website – previously, they were at one point still promoting the 2002 results and likely 2005 IC well after the 2005 IC had been completed.
Redb said | March 11th 2008 @ 3:48pm | Report comment
Michael C,
Kinda fond of marshmellows cooked over a fire. Seem to remember the Kangas feeling sort of scorched after that game
Re international aspect of AFL, its amazing what the internet has done to international footy, its created a way to communciate and cross boundaries. To think the USA was completely devoid of footy ten years and now it has over 60 teams is amazing. It also demonstrates the power of expats taking the game around the world, and this is where European games like soccer and the rugby codes have benefited from the sheer numbers of expats.
As you know one of the most admiral things about the AFL IC is that no expats can play for their adopted country, must be nationals only.
cheers
Redb
Redb said | March 11th 2008 @ 3:54pm | Report comment
Millster,
Its all what your used to. In Australian football we are used to high scoring, attack, attack type games. Soccer can come across as a bit of a bore, a lot of effort for not much result. It takes time to understand those nuances, but it can also lead to a borefest.
Besides footy is much better at the ground, TV does not handle the breadth of the playing field like soccer and the rugbies.
cheers
Redb
Millster said | March 11th 2008 @ 4:04pm | Report comment
RedB – I agree that AFL is good at the ground. Then again I’m the sort of sicko that thinks the same of football – I like the whole positional / structure thing and HATE when a TV camera gets in too close and denies me the big picture.
On ‘its all what you’re used to’ I agree for the southern states. But just remember in making that comment that NSW and QLD play codes of ‘footy’ where you often have less than say 8-10 total tries per game.
Again, I stress I’m not anti-AFL and like the odd game. But I want to take MC to taks on talking of ebb and flow, and for that matter any tactics at all, and then using example games where a scoring shot occurs on average every 1.37 minutes.
PS: don’t you find basketball boring? And that’s a game where it is absolutely expected to score each time you’re up the end of the court, and in fact where a ‘good’ play is a defensive block that stops the otherwise-default 2 or 3 points.
Michael C said | March 11th 2008 @ 4:08pm | Report comment
Contrivance is as it is or ins’t applied. True….effectively all rules are a ‘contrivance’ to create or dictate the game and gameplay.
AFL is probably more structured than I give it credit for. It’s simply not opposing almost ‘mirror’ image formations structured. It’s not the ye olde field of battle formation with cavalry on the flank and artilary in the rear style formation in which of the strength of your side is a valid notion.
However, that game that day as an example had several clearly distinct periods of play.
As a North supporter, I knew that without Anthony Stevens – we lacked the hardness and nouse midfielder to close down the 2nd quarter after getting to a 12 goal lead midway through. The younger guys were almost knackered, and had to just see it out to half time before ‘reloading’ for the 2nd half. Alas, there was just too much time still to go, Essendon kicked 10 of the next 12 goals and it’s less than 4 goal margin at half time.
A lot of the strategy is via the bench, the rotations through the mid-field – the way the 2 teams ’structure up’ versus each other. Think of it like an arm wrestle to play the game on YOUR TERMS. A team like the Swans rarely engage willingly in a ’shoot out’, although, they aren’t too badly equipted to go with most teams. They try to dictate the play and the tempo. They aren’t the only team, they just tend to have got a lot of ‘credit’ or exposure.
It’s funny though, 330 points, that’s not necessarily a good or bad thing. A ODI in cricket can be great with both teams scoring 150 or less. Just as it can be great with both teams scoring 300 or more. Likewise, you can have a really boring 0-0 draw and a quite riveting 0-0 draw, likewise at the other end of the scoring scale. The quality of the contest IS NOT ALWAYS told by the scoreboard – that’s just statistics – - which, is exactly why you effectively maintain that the quality of the performance even in failing to score can be enough – and I can at the other end state that even a 30 point margin game can provide a riveting and enthralling quality of contest.
Redb -
and that’s exactly why – although it ain’t gonna happen – that, the AFL could run an interesting World Cup (the fight for 2nd) based on World Cup eligibility criteria as applied in the other codes. Having seen things like the Italian and Greek teams of the century in a sense gives an insight into what you could at any given time conjur – a sprinkling of half a dozen top AFL players via parentage and grand parents along with a good number of excellent district and suburban players – many semi-professional footballers anyway – and, therefore, providing just as good if not a better account than Namibia in the ICC or RU WC’s.
Millster said | March 11th 2008 @ 4:19pm | Report comment
taks = task (sorry!)
Millster said | March 11th 2008 @ 4:25pm | Report comment
Random gush – goddamn I love this site especially on a boring day at work. MC next time I’m in WA we’re going for a beer. But not to the ‘footy’
Michael C said | March 11th 2008 @ 4:26pm | Report comment
Millster -
Gotta say, re basketball – I find it more annoying that after scoring a goal, they don’t do the footy thing and go back to the centre for a neutral restart – - that way, you’d lose the contrived my turn, you turn style of the game. That’s one of the key elements for footy – you DO NOT have a turn based game. So, if it’s high scoring, and going ‘goal for goal’ – - that’s not the contrivance of the rules happening, – that’s the game being played out via teams battling a neutral contest in the centre of the ground.
At it’s simplest – the quintessential AFL ‘play’ (as perfected at training but rarely on a match day)
Ruckman taps to midfielder running past who breaks into the open, has a bounce, runs his full distance and slots a goal from about 50 on the run. Perfect. Sometimes you might see that once in a game.
If it were that easy – yep, it’d be pretty routine and a bit ho-hum.
Millster said | March 11th 2008 @ 4:33pm | Report comment
In a court as small as basketball, over say 200 restarts per game, the problem is that it would turn simply into a percentage game as to who has the most effective centre. If my big dude was 10% better than yours then the score would end up pretty close to 105-95.
The only reason I wouldn’t level this criticism at AFL is there is plenty more field, plus a wonky shaped ball, to add lots of room for random occurrence and error. And for those reaons, yes I like the neutral restart in that game (though NOT neutral throw-ins for out-of-bounds which I think are downright ridiculous – but I think that was yesterday’s discussion…).
Redb said | March 11th 2008 @ 4:39pm | Report comment
Millster,
Re basketball – I’m afraid I’m biased, my daughter has played at state level thus i’ve seen a lot of games of basketball over the years and understand the ebb and flow of the game pretty well. Basketball’s got plenty fo merit. Tactics come in the form of substitions and match-ups, not unlike AFL.
Re tactics in AFL, well if it was the free for all that non believers beleieve it to be, then why has the AFL got a much larger match day coaching panel than most other sports (except Gridiron). i remember reading an article about Bellamy and another well known NRL coach spending some time in the AFL’s coaching box , they couldn’t beleive the amount of moves in a single game.
AFL hasn’t gone too far down the formation stuff like soccer, 4,3,3 5,2,3 ,etc but it does deploy flooding tactics and extra men in defense stuff (unfortunately). I guess the biggest tactic is man on man matchups, where coaches try and find a mismatch in height, skill,etc In AFL,l you have six lines of 3 players in each line and a centre group (ruck, rover, on-baller). Each line has its own formation and it has to match up against the opponent. Many teams fall down at centre half forward for instance and need to bolster that line.
I think its quite false to assume AFL has no tactics due to high scoring, its all relative to the scoring ability of the opposing team, the coach tweaks his matchups to gain an advantage or overcome a problem throughout the whole game from start to finish.
cheers
Redb
Redb said | March 11th 2008 @ 4:46pm | Report comment
Correction: It’s 5 lines, not 6.
Al said | March 11th 2008 @ 5:03pm | Report comment
Michael C,
Such a world cup made up of local players already exists. Its called the Rugby League World Cup.
I dont know about the teams for this years edition but in previous years the Lebanon team was made up of players almost exclusively from the Canterbury-Bankstown area of Sydney, the Russian team was captained by a Roosters player (with a Russian grandmother) who’d never been to Russia as was the Irish team.
The Lebanon team were able to compete at the 2000 RLWC when a domestic competition in that country wasn’t established until 2002.
Michael C said | March 11th 2008 @ 5:06pm | Report comment
Millster -
Melbourne actually – I think it’s John Ryan in Perth who accuses me of being responsible for on air antics of 6PR or something. Crickey – last thing I would force upon anyone is listening to the biased drivel from either Perth or Adelaide footy commentators.
REdb -
well, 5 lines plus the onballers who – traditionally, the followers – follow the ball for the purpose of ‘forming up’ around the ‘neutral’ restarts around the ground with various ‘extras’ depending largely upon where in the ground there are.
The main thing around the attempts to run a ‘loose man’ in defence for example is what your opposing coach opts for. Will he send a man with to match up, and thus, effectively play a 7 man forward line – thus, plus 7 defenders – it means a crowded 14 man zone up one end vs a relatively open 10 man (5 on 5) up the other. With ’space’ being at a premium, often the coaches will opt for a duelling loose men scenario. Hoping that ‘my gun shoots bigger bullets than yours’ will win the day.
That’s a simple starting point tactic.
Often, in the past, based purely upon the direction of the wind dictating that you play a loose man back when kicking into the wind.
The other starting point tactic is the Ruckman, does he play a kick behind all day, never venturing further forward than the centre circle – or, does he use his athleticism to try to push forward, exposing his opponents either lack of endurance or lack of ‘defensive capacity’ by taking a few marks forward and hopefully kicking a couple of goals – balanced against the extra work rate and potential offsets in quality of ruck work – depending upon the rotational support off the bench.
Michael C said | March 11th 2008 @ 5:09pm | Report comment
Al -
and I think I’ve stated before – good luck in running the contest, enjoy it for what it is – but – be very careful about just how it’s marketed. I think there is a delicate but very, very important distinction between presenting something as a ‘World Cup as against an ‘International Cup’ – the latter is not claiming to be a worlds best anything either explicitly or by comparable usage of the term in a broader more recogniseable sense – i.e. FIFA, ICC, RFU.
cheers.
Al said | March 11th 2008 @ 5:29pm | Report comment
MC,
I was drawing attention to it because it is an absolute joke not because im a supporter of it!!!!
Millster said | March 11th 2008 @ 5:37pm | Report comment
MC – my apologies for thinking you were a Perthite (a pity you’re not though as I’m more often in WA than VIC). Offer of beer remains though… I’ll buy it for you when France play Australia on a balmy Friday night at the ‘G circa 2018. Round of 16 perhaps, with France going on to take the crown… I’ll even promise to come with you to see the Roos play whoever in AFL the next day (though I suspect they will have well and truly relocated by then and we’ll be looking for the cheapest way to get to Alice Springs or Kalgoorlie where they will surely be based).
Some of your descriptions of the use of on-ballers reminds me of the dilemmas in use of wing-backs in football. A VERY polarising issue in my sport. eg Roberto Carlos (Brazil) iis a legend to some, and a waste of space to others. Notionally a left-back, he rarely is found on the defensive side of the half-way line, and actually plays a role far more like Beckham’s with strongest assets being crossing into the box and wicked set-piece kicks. To a purist defender like me that’s just heresy. Only reason I like him is that his mistake caused the corner that led to my beloved France’s first goal in their ‘98 World Cup Final triumph.
More broadly, to both you and RedB, apologies if the cut and thrust of this forum makes me oversimplify any game. We all tend to do it in the heat of the argument, and I think we all know that each game – yes even basketball – has its own tactical merit.
Millster said | March 11th 2008 @ 6:27pm | Report comment
Just read on another site. Tomorrow night. Chunnam Dragons Vs Melbourne Victory. Telstra Dome. 40000 crowd expected.
Neither are ‘my’ club. So why am I salivating?
Midfielder said | March 11th 2008 @ 6:34pm | Report comment
Because it the Asian Champions league ………………not my clubs neither ……………..but for that night I am going for MV.
Does not mean I support the Mariners less, ………………just ………………..Aussie first.
Millster said | March 11th 2008 @ 6:58pm | Report comment
Same same. They might be Mexicans. But they are OUR Mexicans, representing OUR league.
John Ryan said | March 11th 2008 @ 7:18pm | Report comment
Michael C,some where you mentioned me in regards to Mahatmacoat and 6pr You were the one having a go at Rugby League footy show over said gent.
All I was showing was that AFL fans are just as stupid,I,m sorry I regard both Footy shows as utter rubbish,some what the same as I look upon AFL,and I was raised on AFL through school ect.
Cross country basketball is a good name for it
Michael C said | March 11th 2008 @ 8:50pm | Report comment
John Ryan -
Nah, not me. It was ‘best clubman’ on the Rugby League slag off article. Not me. Not me your honour!!!!
And, I’ve heard enough of Ken Cunningham and Jars etc in Adelaide, and over the years heard the horrid ‘local’ commentary when my Roos are playing the Dockers or Eagles…….
I can but sympathise for you dear sir, I sympathise for you.
Michael C said | March 11th 2008 @ 9:01pm | Report comment
Al -
(shhhh, ……{read in hushed tones}, yes, yes, I realise your tone of ‘disdain’ for the affore mentioned pseudo ‘world event’, however, I’ve mentioned the ‘war’ earlier, but, I think I got away with it, and am keen to avoid another potential confrontation – - but, I agree entirely with your conviction on the issue!!!)
martin buchan said | March 11th 2008 @ 11:21pm | Report comment
tackling you missed the point or dont understand so iwiill for give your ignorance this time but not again silly boy. aussie rules committie celebrate the football international side gettin booted out of world cup in 2001 three cheers for the fair go . nill nill some of the best drama unfolds in these games some of the worst i would also admit. it goes for all sports. good the bad and the ugly. no goals in some quarters of aussie rules here, a reference to quick goal gratification,no doubt another major overhaul of the rules required yet again from the game that never was and never will succeed on the world stage as it begins to struggle on its home soil as more and more turn to FOOTBALL Dont follow the A league was said,what ,your countrys producing some great footballers at this time and moment .so stop comparing it with the best league on the planet ie the epl look at the achivements of sydney fc ,they came close to stopping the asian champions urawa reds they also defeated the african champions in the football world club cup , another thing if you were to remove the media machine abehind aussie rules it would eventually disappear into the bush . it always trys to aviod football as much as it can as you may have witnessed tonight with there being no mention on the news and so called sports sections of footballs asian champions league all these so called sports programs turn into another aussie rules show . so get off the grass the world cup is coming 2018 aussie rules rest in peace ,fair go and all that to you . let your fears be retaliation,smell the fear, and go the dons thats aberdeen football club to you , stand free where ever you maybe for we are the famous aberdeen ,sing along you know you want to. you aussies dont deserve football . dont know why i wasted this space on you. for we are aberdeen fc we are the mighty dandy dons aberdeen fc pittodrie we stand free aberdeen fc . come on sing along. your not singing any more, your not singing anymore.
Redb said | March 12th 2008 @ 9:58am | Report comment
Martin Buchan,
I feel sorry for you, its your loss. Australian football is a great game if you bother to try and understand it, so take of those soccer sunnies and give it a go.
cheers
Redb
Millster said | March 12th 2008 @ 10:37am | Report comment
Yes. Australian football is a great game. Melbourne Victory against Chunnam tonight should be a corker example.
AFL’s not bad either.
PS: Martin – your view that EPL is the world’s best league is seriously questionable. How about Spain? Italy? even perhaps Germany?
Midfielder said | March 12th 2008 @ 10:57am | Report comment
Martin
You posed an interesting question about if the media was changed for say five years how far would football grow and how far would the other codes fall.
This I think is the real war being waged by AFL, lost of media exposure in time means lost of revenue.
It will never happen mind you …..but it is an interesting question.
Redb said | March 12th 2008 @ 11:29am | Report comment
Midfielder,
Wishful thinking. Media reflects interests. The AFL is not owned by a media organisation nor is any AFL club. If you want to look at media generated sports interest take a look at the NRL. Where would the Melb Storm be without News Ltd? Foxsports, Daily Telegraph, Herald Sun, Ch 9 all have vested interests with stakes in the NRL. It’s really a question for them.
The AFL is not a TV sport per se. It has always relied on club membership and crowd attendance, the TV interest and money came later. 2008 Club membership varies between 20,000 and 40,000 per club, there is enough club based members to maintain the competition without TV. You join an AFL club to attend games. In 2008, sure the AFL relies in part on TV money to grow the game, keep national sponsors happy,etc But to think all interest in the game would stop without media is folly.
I think soccer supporters in this country have a giant chip on their shoudler with regards to the media. It is also pretty arrogant to imply that without media soccer would naturally rise up.
“This I think is the real war being waged by AFL, lost of media exposure in time means lost of revenue” – not sure whst you mean by this comment. I repeat, the AFL is not owned or owns any media organisation – the media it gets is created by interest in the game. In NSW and QLD it is viewed differently as some sort of incursion, the greedy AFL et al. It’s a misnomer.
You might be interested to know that the Melbourne ‘AGE’ is a sponsor of the Melbourne Victory – is this not cash for comment?
cheers
Redb
Midfielder said | March 12th 2008 @ 12:27pm | Report comment
Redb
It was not wishful thinking as I said it would never happen.
However if you believe that football has over the years not been given a hard time by the media in general, I assume you must belong to the flat earth society, …………….no use getting into an arguement about it as you hold your views and nothing I can do will change them.
But you loose all credibility if you insist that 1) the media had over the years been harsh or ignored football remember the famous Ch 7 email, 2) if the media was so unimportant as you imply why; is the AFL so keen on signing media deals and often with special be nice to AFL clauses, 3) AFL does not need the 780 million or the seen on TV to get the spondsorship deals…………………..sorry does not work.
Agree your crowds, ………………but your crowd income is not the biggest income earner you have, its media and spondsors using your exposure on the media to have coverage.
Redb said | March 12th 2008 @ 1:13pm | Report comment
Midfielder,
My quote below I think indicates that I understand that TV money is part of the package and there is no turning back. However,, unlike every other code in Australia we have strong club memberships and the best crowd numbers – we are less reliant on TV/media. people actually go to games of football, 7 million last year. No code is even clsoe to that in this coun try. That is real tangible support not trumped up media generated interest, aka Melb Storm.
“In 2008, sure the AFL relies in part on TV money to grow the game, keep national sponsors happy,etc”
The $780M is a huge shot in the arm for the AFL. Its money that is pure cream, money to grow the game beyond its traditional boundaries. But don’t be mistaken, it was the crowds and overwhelming support for the game in VIC, SA & WA that got that money in the first place and the promise of bigger things in NSW and QLD.
The war chest is there to grow the game becuase the world is getting smaller, soccer’s huge junior presence, slow growing interest in other football codes in Melbourne, Perth,etc . The AFL has to expand the player pool over a period of time, so that we get a share of the bigger pie. It’s unreleasitic to think that AFL’s incredible domnation of chosen sport in Melbourne will not change as waves of migrants both interstate and overseas move to Melbourne and bring their games with them. Some may choose footy, others will choose soccer,etc. The plan is simple , introduce the game as a choice in other markets not to dominate, just to spread the pool.
The next TV deal is expected to go to $1B. Naysayers will say the AFL will be lucky to get that, others will say it will be the peak for the AFL. It doesn’t matter, the $780M has already created massive junior development in Sydney and Queensland. It may take 10 years to get 20% of the market and TV ratings in NSW and QLD, but it will be enough to sustain the comp with two teams in every major capital by 2015. Sponsors love that sort of coverage.
meanwhile the AFL is quitely working away at expanding the game internationally, if you get 10% of South Africans choosing OZ footy in ten years out of a population of 40 million – well you do the math.
cheers
Redb
Michael C said | March 12th 2008 @ 1:49pm | Report comment
Oh dear, Martin, oh dear……
“aussie rules committie celebrate the football international side gettin booted out of world cup in 2001 three cheers for the fair go . “
Okay, so, you’re believing as ‘official’ policy a tongue in cheek response by a single member of the COMMISSION to a silly question. At any rate though – sports is a business – the ‘players’ in the business of sports are in competition. That’s a given. Any other belief is delusional. Otherwise, the FFA/Soccer Australia would have stood side by side with the AFL on drugs in sport – because, when the AFL was resisting signing on to WADA, well, the FFA/SA was aligned with FIFA who themselves were NOT signed on to WADA and would not do so for another 18 months thereafter. If it was only about ‘SPORT’, then the FFA/SA would have lent it’s ‘weight’ to the AFL. Alas, NO, because, it was UNWILLING to deflect the negative attention (including from the supposed ‘pet’ media outlets, Channel 7 and the Herald Sun have been 2 of the worst offenders). So – thankyou very, very much the gutless soccer industry in this country to NOT come out and state clearly that as part of being ‘aligned’ with FIFA meant that they were NOT WADA compliant – and that when FIFA signed up, eventually, in late 2006 – that it was with ‘strings’ attached.
“nill nill some of the best drama unfolds in these games some of the worst i would also admit. it goes for all sports. good the bad and the ugly. no goals in some quarters of aussie rules here, a reference to quick goal gratification,no doubt another major overhaul of the rules required”
What are you on about? Perhaps you ability to gained zero goal, drawn game gratification is baking your brain. Yes – there was a reference – however, your reference leaves it unclear what your point is.
“yet again from the game that never was and never will succeed on the world stage as it begins to struggle on its home soil as more and more turn to FOOTBALL”
Actually, please present some statistics to illustrate that AFL/footy is ‘struggling’ on home soil?? Record revenue, profit, 15 of 16 clubs profitable, record crowds (WITHOUT any extra teams or games per round), Record club memberships etc. Yep, such a struggle as that is, I wonder how they manage.
“Dont follow the A league was said,what ,your countrys producing some great footballers at this time and moment .so stop comparing it with the best league on the planet ie the epl look at the achivements of sydney fc ,they came close to stopping the asian champions urawa reds they also defeated the african champions in the football world club cup”
Hmm, I think this is directed at ‘true soccer fans’, because, they are the folk who will be comparing the HAL to other leagues – and, seemingly are the folk NOT turning up in large numbers, because, SFC in particular SHOULD be outstripping all other clubs for crowds – being the only team in the being the biggest city in the biggest soccer state. Don’t blame anybody else. Remember, AFL myopic Melbourne has the most profitable and most supported club. Gee – we’re bad people down here…..
“ , another thing if you were to remove the media machine abehind aussie rules it would eventually disappear into the bush . it always trys to aviod football as much as it can as you may have witnessed tonight with there being no mention on the news and so called sports sections of footballs asian champions league all these so called sports programs turn into another aussie rules show”
Don’t forget, soccer, HAL, chose to AVOID the NRL and AFL by playing over summer – as did Basketball in this country. It was a strategic ‘retreat’ to ‘no mans land’. A game that draws about 60-70K a week around the country including New Zealand is NOT deserved of anywhere near the same media coverage as the NRL does in Sydney or the AFL in Melb, Perth and Adelaide. Regarding TV – well, most of that emanates out of Sydney now anyway – so don’t blame the AFL or Melb media mafia – they got deposed years ago, back when World of Sports was cancelled out of Dorcas St South Melbourne.
“ . so get off the grass the world cup is coming 2018”
Certainly, the World Cup is coming in 2010, and 2014, and 2018 will be in Europe – you’ve given me no reason NOT to believe that the WC will be in Europe in 2018. And provide no global logic otherwise, let alone that Australia will see anything of the WC at least until the second hosting by Asia that at the earliest would be 2034, if not 2038…….so, don’t hold your breath.
“ aussie rules rest in peace ,fair go and all that to you . let your fears be retaliation,smell the fear, and go the dons thats aberdeen football club to you”
I think this says it all. If you like Aberdeen so much…..well,…..I suspect Aberdeen awaits you. I do believe you’ve been smelling a bit of fearlike substance yourself, and perhaps too much of it. It might be time to take up chewing gum.
“, stand free where ever you maybe for we are the famous aberdeen ,sing along you know you want to. you aussies dont deserve football “
Well, apparently we ‘don’t deserve’ ‘football’ – - funny, given that WE Aussies have thus far sustained 4 successful codes of ‘football’ – it seems to me we are the worlds ‘cradle’ of the game at present – we are the ‘melting pot’ of football – the shining beacon of multi-code understanding etc. But, you seem annoyed that what I presume you believe to be the ‘worlds greatest game’ is not given an armchair ride in the Australian market…..does that suggest that in a competitive market that it requires ‘help’?
“. dont know why i wasted this space on you. for we are aberdeen fc we are the mighty dandy dons aberdeen fc pittodrie we stand free aberdeen fc . come on sing along. your not singing any more, your not singing anymore.”
Hate to burst your bubble, I never was singing – not even humming,
By the way – do you actually ‘LIVE’ in Australia? Or are you just ‘existing’ and ‘enduring’. I feel sorry for you. I respect your obvious passion and emotion, however, you’ve not provided much substance. I’d like to think that a few more posters on theROAR could do that.
The thing that really surprises me:
I’ve asserted that:
Europe, hosted 2006 WC
Africa get 2010
Sth America 2014.
Rules 2018 onwards, a confed CAN’T host that has hosted one of previous 2.
Therefore, Europe, best regularity going forward is every 12 years.
England only hosted once back in the 60s.
Why do we believe that Europe would NOT ensure hosting in 2018 by Europe???
And then, after that 2030, 2042, 2054 etc etc.
Asia – sure as heck that China is the golden goose that FIFA want’s to cook. China for 2022, that will be 14 years after the Olympics this year – I’m certain the ONLY way that Europe WILL NOT get the WC in 2018 would be if China put their hand up. And no way would FIFA want Australia to host it and thus consign China to at least a 12 year wait before they could host it.
There’s just NO WAY.
Towser said | March 12th 2008 @ 2:20pm | Report comment
For all the lines of verbal hyperbole written here on this subject ,the fact of the matter is that if we do land the 2018 World Cup,there will be no issue.
Whether you agree disagree or otherwise re the bid, first and foremost to actually receive approval from FIFA all obstacles,including ground availability for the designated June/July periodwill have been sorted.
If we dont get the bid the reason will not be because other sports are using the grounds at this time,at least that will not be the official reason. Because if that was the reason put forth, we would never live down the embaressment to the nation and particularly for the government who backed the bid in the first place.
Millster said | March 12th 2008 @ 2:38pm | Report comment
MC – well written
You might see that bloke as one of ‘us crowd’ but trust me, he’s with the strange kids out the back…
I tend to agree with your 12 year cycle which I think from now on will go:
- Europe
- Americas (Nth or South)
- Other (alternating Africa and Asia)
I also agree that we at best are second in line to China.
But as previously written I don’t think thats an excuse not to properly explore and prepare and submit a bid. Just as in the Olympics, it may well be a prerequisite to winning that a country has tried before. At the very least it allows 2 ‘generations’ worth of effort to devote themselves to the solving complex issues, logistics and infrastructure.
Redb said | March 12th 2008 @ 3:01pm | Report comment
Towser,
You maybe right about there being no issue. I like others here don’t think we have a snowflakes chance in hell of landing the WC in 2018 or probably for a decade beyond that. Whilst its all very well to say piss off to the domestic codes of football if your a soccer follower, it’s no easy thing for those codes which are dominant in this country. This is a situation that is UNLIKE any other country that has previously hosted a WC (USA excepted, although i doubt they got the NFL to move games).
cheers
Redb
Michael C said | March 12th 2008 @ 3:10pm | Report comment
Redb -
Helps that the NFL don’t really start until their pre-season in August. So – no issue there. I have zero idea about the baseball or basketball seasons…however, I somehow doubt that any confliction of venue would have applied.
I do just wonder what length of binding contract the AFL and MCC have regarding the MCG. Obviously, we saw the AFL have to ‘fix’ the draw for several seasons – artificially REDUCING crowds – by playing games at the Telstra Dome that were ideally suited for the MCG and vice versa – just to nudge the MCC towards relenting around finals. The MCC know where the bread is buttered – and, FIFA would be doing well to be able to force a break in that contractual arrangement.
Might require an act of parliament.
Then it’d all just be one big political football……
Towser said | March 12th 2008 @ 4:11pm | Report comment
Michael C
Bidding for the World Cup is a political football full stop,regardless of the country and its local differences to the rest of the world.
Redb
Its not a matter of saying piss off to anybody. Believe me knowing the machinations of FIFA they are not sitting down right now considering possible hooliganism in England,or whether tanks will roll in red square again if China hold it.
Lets face it the next World Cup is in South Africa,home of Aids and incessant crime where people live behind big walls and hiire security guards for their home.. So I should imagine that the availability of AFL grounds is not high on there agenda when considering who will get the 2018 bid.
The bid will be presented to FIFA by the FFA ,backed by the government.
Realistically do you really believe we would mount a serious bid,unless grounds and availability was not already sorted?
As I stated before if ground availability is a problem we will not make a bid,full stop,end of story.
If we make a bid everything this end will be sorted,we’ll then be at the mercy of FIFA(thats when you start worrying)
If this is the case will you as an AFL fan accept the umpires decision in good grace?
In this particular topic, the umpires decision meaning that the FFA and the government have sat down with all parties who would have normally been using any grounds required in the June/July period for 2018 and absolved the difficulties.
Michael C said | March 12th 2008 @ 4:25pm | Report comment
Towser -
Yep, FIFA, the only organisation that makes the Academy of Motion Pictures look legitamate.
re the rest directed at redb -
on my behalf, I’d accept in good grace so long as there’s not a ‘bulldozer’ used to achieve a ’solution’.
The AFL can not give up 2 winter months – simple as that. IIt can not be finished by end of May, can not NOT start before September, and can NOT hibernate over June AND July. That’s the starting point in any negotiation.
Either, ground sharing is possible or new venues built/upgraded for the AFL as compensation. Perhaps AFL retains Telstra Dome and Govt actually upgrades a Princes Park or the like to a 40K capacity to carry extra games in lieu of the MCG being ‘vacacted’…….something like that that would deliver the AFL an extra quality venue in Melb, or, perhaps a means to gain Govt funding to upgrade Carara and Blacktown to 25K AFL venues and thus allow the AFL more readily to step back from venues in QLD and NSW. After all, it may be cheaper to use existing ‘large’ venues, and ‘build’ a few boutique AFL venues. The NRL shouldn’t have too great concerns – they have mostly their ’suburban’ and ‘regional’ venues that cater just fine for their crowds – and perhaps 1 or 2 might be deserved of a slight upgrade if SFS, and Olympic stadium and Suncorp are all unavailable.
That could be an alternate to or in conjunction with pure cash compensation – - and that could be win-win, the AFL come out with their slice of the pie – so to speak. The reality is – at present – there is NO evident reason to go hell for leather building 40-60K rectangular venues dotted all over the country. None of those codes show the regular support deserved of such for ‘club’ competitions – such that existing larger venues are sufficient. That’s why, freeing up the existing larger venues – in the main, from the AFL during winter – might be best handled via this method. Is it entirely silly???
But – if the AFL and for that measure, the NRL, were white anted by Fed Govt and FFA, then there’d be hell to pay – there WOULD then be a principle involved – one of fairness that if NOT adhered to in a reasonable sense would result most likely in if not open warfare, at least a guerilla warfare!!
Millster said | March 12th 2008 @ 4:25pm | Report comment
Look, in any case I don’t think compensation will be hard. Follow the numbers (based on the ACTUAL net GDP increase enjoyed by Germany for 06 World Cup hosting).
$27bn raw GDP increase
x 30% company tax rate
/ 2 to give a hefty allowance for economic ‘leakage’ and to make it harder to argue my point !
= public revenue one-off increase of $4.05bn
If even only 1% of this were held back as a ‘management contingency’ to compensate affected parties or facilitate sporting / community accomodation of the event, we’re talking a kitty of a touch over $40 million.
And I note that’s just from the public coffers. The management contingencies on the private ledgers involved would give plenty more ‘wriggle-room’ again for the event to go without these kind of hitches.
Towser said | March 12th 2008 @ 4:34pm | Report comment
Michael C
It sounds like you will accept the umpires decisions on your terms.
Not exactly good grace.
Fortunately for the sake of good sense and harmony amongst Australians you are not involved in the negotiations.
Millster said | March 12th 2008 @ 4:39pm | Report comment
MC – I agree with all the above except for your ’starting point’. Reality is that the NRL and AFL would simply not run in the major cities during the 5 weeks of a World Cup. To think anything else is naive.
However I think there are opportunities there. Imagine a 2018 – 2030 – whatever – season with a traditional start, a traditional end, and then 5 special rounds run in centres like Darwin, Kalgoorlie, Broome, Wagga Wagga, Toowoomba, Townsville, Albury-Wodonga, Mount Gambier, Mildura, etc…
I’ve been in marketing for quite a bit of my career and I think there is a powerful dual message there of:
- lets work with the World Cup and be friends not enemies; and
- lets take our unashamedly Aussie game back to the bush (where, incidentally, there will be plenty of tourists piggy-backing their discovery of Australia on the back of a footballing trip)
I think that kind of idea would paint the AFL in a VERY good light and would do absolutely no harm to its brand or long-term linkage with its core consistuency.
And if I was the FFA WC bid manager, that would be a solution that I’d not only accept, but actively promote as part of the broader cultural value of bringing the event to Australia (yes, I’d promote AFL as part of a football bid). A kind of “Come for the worlds best football but while you’re here you CANNOT miss the uniqueness of Australia – the snakes, sharks, the snaggas and the Sherrins, out in the real Aussie bush”
(Remember too that those middle rounds would be regular fixtures, not finals.)
Michael C said | March 12th 2008 @ 4:42pm | Report comment
Towser -
well, if the umpire arbitrates on the basis of fair and reasonable negotiations – then obviously, good grace is to accept a fair and reasonable and balanced resolution – i.e. to resolve the issue on behalf of, and considering the needs of, both/all parties. That means, that each party would hope that the majority or most important of their ‘needs’ are met. Ideally then, each party can sign off knowing that their terms have been considered fairly.
As I said, if a bulldozer is brought in – that might be in the form of Govt legislation to FORCE, or Govt attempting to get it’s way via threats of withheld funding etc and playing favourites – well, in a competitive environment – that is not acceptable – at least without due compensation.
What I’ve suggested is a form of compensation other than purely dollars – i.e. venue upgrades OUTSIDE of the WC venues so as to free up the largest existing venues to be WC venues rather than building new ‘larger’ venues that we might envisage – on the back of the Sydney Olympic Stadium – to run the risk that said venues might be white elephants. The Sydney Olympic Stadium in the hands of the NRL club competition is an example NOT of ‘build it and they will come’.
Towser said | March 12th 2008 @ 4:53pm | Report comment
MIchael C
We would hope then that”fair and reasonable negotiations” prevails.
I remain optimistic this is so.
Historically “bulldozer” tactics dont work in this country and I for one one would, despite being a football fan, be left with a sour taste if we gained a World Cup by these methods.
Michael C said | March 12th 2008 @ 5:25pm | Report comment
Millster -
funny you mention that sort of regional venue scenario.
There has already been a suggestion by Kevin Sheedy that a full round of AFL should one day be played overseas – and, venues pending, developing AFL areas such as US/Canada, Nrth Europe/Scandanavia, UK, Sth and central Europe, Asia, Africa etc could all benefit greatly from that exposure, especially as junior competitions either kick off or are being consolidated.
However,
back in the 1950s there was a round with games in I think Albury, Yallorn, Benalla etc.
I wouldn’t mind seeing such a round done again – at least once. However, over a 5 or 6 week period, that’s a big ask.
But – let’s say Princes Park get’s revamped to 40K, and Kardinia Park in Geelong to 40K. FIFA gets MCG and Telstra Dome (sooner the better for FIFA, as if not 2018, then AFL will OWN this venue). And then, Melbourne is sort. I’m not sure about plans or not to be able to expand the new rectangular venue to 40K min or not?
The AFL could ensure that fixtures didn’t involve too many likely really high drawing games for those weeks.
Brisbane – well, if the GAbba is required or not – that’s another question, but, it’d be a reasonable reason to upgrade CArarra to free up the Gabba if the Gabba were at the time deemed appropriate.
Sydney – again, with all the Rectangle venues available and perhaps upgradeable in Sydney and NSW – the SCG might NOT be required, and the AFL and NRL could probably quite easily NOT have a conflict for the Olympic Stadium.
Perth – at this stage only Subiaco is the right capacity. A bit of water to go under the bridge over there. Presently, only the AFL clubs have a compelling case for a 60K venue. And only Western Force have a compelling arguement for a largish rectangle venue.
Adelaide – presently only AAMI stadium is over 40K.
Both Adelaide and Perth would be the main problems. The REctangle codes DO NOT offer a sufficient justificiation for a 40K permanent venue – so, I’d foresee a minor upgrade plus temporary stands. That way, the AFL venues at Subi and AAMI could still carry their workload – as, in those cities – with the membership and attendance of the clubs – you really can’t relocate their games at any time.
Marc in Johannesburg said | March 12th 2008 @ 5:39pm | Report comment
“if you get 10% of South Africans choosing OZ footy in ten years out of a population of 40 million – well you do the math.”
RedB – you are dreaming. That’s what I love about rugby union and AFL and their zealots – the ability to completely overstate their games importance in the world. Like “AFL will bridge the divide between black and white”. Don’t make me laugh.
Millster said | March 12th 2008 @ 5:45pm | Report comment
MC – Sheedy’s idea reminds me of the recent talk of ‘Round 39′ in the English Premier League which was met with howls of derision both in England and world-wide. Interesting idea but there are many problems with taking any domestic competition that far away from its home.
Incidentally, IF (and again I stress I don’t think it will be the case) concurrent competitions are the answer then yes I totally agree with your solution, both as an immediate fix and as a longer-term provider of good infrastructure for the betterment of all sports. Its a much better solution than building brand new rectangular pitches everywhere without a decent sustainable business plan for their proper utilisation beyond that one event.
I’ll relay a left field idea from a colleague here. Given the acceptability and regularity of rules experiments and alterations in AFL, why don’t we play a few years of NAB Cup on rectangular pitches? By the time 2018, 2030, etc comes around it will have been embraced fair and square (excuse the pun) throughout your code and we’ll all be happily building and sharing fields of roughly the same dimensions. We can make the AFL ball a few kilos heavier while we’re at it so that it can’t be kicked from one end to the other of the ‘revised’ field too quickly. Hehe….
Midfielder said | March 12th 2008 @ 7:01pm | Report comment
To the non football posters
Very interesting discussion,………..a tad getting to what my code can do.
As I see it AFL is embedded in the Southern states, especially in Melbourne, further from an outsiders view it appears that the media and the AFL are one in the same essentially on the same side.
The AFL will never die and in its heart land it will always be number one (200 years from now).
The problem for the AFL as I see it, is the AFL as a commercial product is in a mature market phase, in that revenues cannot grow other than inflation as the crowds are near peak capicity and it is difficult to believe that its commercial will explode to greater and newer heights. ……………….A huge issue for the AFL is that league via the Storm, union via international matches, and football via the southern state teams and the Socceroos will in time erode the existing levels of AFL support in AFL heart land.
That is why the AFL need to expand and good luck to them, strike while the iron is hot, …………..it makes simple sense. Also the AFL have been over the last 20 years or so the most professionally run of the codes and enjoy in Kerry Stokes as a sugar Daddy whoes heart / emotion / and brain is willing to invest very large sums.
Union’s management and internal infighting hold it back and I think they have already lost and are in a damage control phase hoping the national team can carry them through. Time will tell but if ever there was a nitch code in Australia it is union. It will be hear as well in the future but just smaller.
NRL will try to hold its ground and like the AFl is in a mature phase of its revenue and to increase its revenue it needs to expand, were and how are the questions otherwise it will surely slowly shrink.
Football is in a growth attempting to grow to 14 teams across Australia & NZ, with low operating costs and a Asian Champions League & Pan Asian Cup to boost the local A-League teams with the national team just getting stronger each year where if not already Australia most supported and followed team.
The outcome, IMO, strong growth for football, slow growth for the AFL, slow shinkage for the NRL, and damage control for union, Basketball dead, baseball dead, cricket shrinking.
Well at least thats how I see it.
Marc in Johannesburg said | March 12th 2008 @ 7:26pm | Report comment
Thanks Midfielder
Can you look into your crystal ball and predict AFL’s growth in South Africa?
RedB is suggesting that it can grow from 8,000 (AFL propaganda and questionable) to 4 million participants by 2018. I make that a growth rate of more than 85% per annum. Do you think that a cashed-up football and rugby union will allow it? Do you think a country that despises (maybe that’s a bit harsh, dislikes is a better word) most things Australian and especially anything that looks or smells like colonialism will welcome this intruder?
Redb said | March 12th 2008 @ 7:53pm | Report comment
“If this is the case will you as an AFL fan accept the umpires decision in good grace?”
Towser,
It almost impossible for an AFL fan to see any upside for the AFL in this scenario, this is a lose- win. Frank Lowy is no dill, he knows that stopping the two major winter codes for June and July, then kicking off with the A League in August is a significant advantage for his code in Australia.
I don’t look at this from a missing out on the footy for two months aspect, but more a massive Government sanctioned free kick for soccer over Australian football (the game I grew up with, and my parents and my grandparents). I still don’t know why the AFL should allow to this to happen without considerable compensation, sport is big business.
Publicially, the AFL have come out and given tentative show us the details support. I suspect they are comfortable knowing the bid for 2018 is highly unlikely to succeed anyway, why make enemies.
What is fair, is the World Cup being played in the soccer season in Australia – that is fair. Now I’m sure you’ll tell me that won’t happen as it would clash with other major soccer leagues around the world – well boo bloody hoo. Can you see the irony or worse hypocrisy?
back to Mr lowy. I doubt this is about ground availability alone. Assuming the AFl is able to find other grounds at reduced capacity, is it part of the deal not wanting/allowing the AFL or NRL to play at all during those months?
I like soccer, watch some EPL games (love Toures) and follow the Melb Victory, so i’m happy to co-exist. As for the World Cup I watch only the games Australia is playing in, that is my level of interest in the World Cup.
I genuinely would like to see Aussie Rules develop more around Australia and eventually played overseas. That is more important to this AFL fan. . Soccer frankly, doesn’t need to any help to grow, its the world game already. That is my frame of reference.
cheers
Redb
Michael C said | March 12th 2008 @ 8:49pm | Report comment
Marc in Jo’berg.
Sth Africa is interesting. The AFL did not go marching in their, however, a single ‘commissioner’ [Colin Carter] has developed it as a bit of a personal mission. Before the AFL was willing to invest anything fiscal – Tattersalls had been funding activities and now Costa Logistics I think it is. The AFL is now putting in all of a ‘massive’ (NOT) AUD$400K. Hardly a large outlay.
The simple fact is that there have been positive signs, govt support in places, sponsorship in places, participation in places etc etc – enough to be able to forecast a sustainable ‘niche’, i.e. like Rugby League in England, a couple of cities or a couple of provinces will do – not to be ‘converted’ en mass – but, given the availability of cricket ovals – and developing partnerships with Cricket and Govt – - – who knows.
10% of population……personally, I think along the lines of Tasmania. About 30K registerd footy players. If the AFL could within 10 years present 30-40K participants/players in Sth Africa – I reckon that’d be brilliant. With that number, you could easily see 5-10 draftable kids a year.
Btw guys -
I’ve posted a new article on ‘where the first AFL player to NOT learn their footy first in Australia’ will come from. Everyone suggests Sth Africa now. There’s one particular kid who learned his footy from age 13 in Vancouver who is up in QLD this year, age 18, 192 cms, and determined to make it.
This is the biggest question – how much impetus does the AFL (aust footy) get in ‘international’ areas if and when a true native ‘makes it’. Will that give the code – because, remember, it IS pretty unique – enough of a kick along to ‘take off’ (enough).
It’s a curious thing to watch – no one has seriously tried to ‘export’ the game before – and, certainly, enough immigrants to the Aust Footy states have ‘fallen in love’ with it over the years. I’m pragmatic enough though, it needs large ovals – they ain’t everywhere. Already, in many places they play regular ‘club’ games as 9-16 aside type contests.
As with Redb -
I agree, I don’t dispise or resent soccer – - but, really, it’s big enough, it’s already the biggest. I don’t want the world to be ‘all the same’. it takes some of the interest out of it. It’d be a damn shame if we ’strangled’ our own unique take on football just so as to be just like everybody else……….”You are all individuals”….”Yes, we are all individuals”……….”I’m not”……that’s us, tacked on the end, that’s Australia with footy.
Midfielder said | March 12th 2008 @ 9:13pm | Report comment
Redb , MC & Marc
SA to take up AFL ………….go and try it might work, who knows, …………..remember the World Cup is being played in 2010, that takes up the black community and many of the whites. Union is embedded in ANGLO SA much the same as AFL in Melbourne, only more I guess, you would have to live their I guess to understand why.
Why not try is more the important question, as AFL needs to grow outside the Southern Sates to maintain its present position. Essentially this is because the AFL is very slowly being eroded by other codes and past times in its heartland so AFL must expand or shrink and by having all its eggs in three capital cities anything is worth a try. In their shoes I would do the same, they have the money, so give it a go.
Whether it works …………..well …………………introduce a white ANGLO game into SA and hope it takes off. Something about pigs and flying IMO, but they should try because they may just do it.
Marc in Johannesburg said | March 12th 2008 @ 9:22pm | Report comment
Midfielder – EXACTLY!!!
AFL will never be anything is this country! Football is king, then rugby union. Kaizer Chiefs and Orlando Pirates make Collingwood look like a suburb of Melbourne.