Move the AFL for the Soccer World Cup? Bugger off!

LK said  | February 26th 2008 @ 10:02am | Report comment

I’m concerned for you, Michael. Very concerned.

Last week in blog correspondence a “Michael C” passionately argued the government under funds AFL, and in particular taxpayers should be stumping up for larger stadia in WA.

Today on this blog “Michael C” passionately argues taxpayers shouldn’t fund stadia for football.

Surely no person can hold such contradictory views and I’m worried that your identity has been stolen.

LK said  | February 26th 2008 @ 12:45pm | Report comment

Ok, I think I get it. The AFL shouldn’t move from the MCG because:
a) it was a govt funded stadium for cricket, AFL and – ahem – one off events
b) it is run by a cricket council
c) AFL has always played there.

It is probably a moot point. FIFA may not like playing games there due to its oval proportions. Can’t the AFL stage all MCG games at the stadium they own? Or is it the principle of AFL having to postpone or re-schedule mid season games (rather than the venues) that upsets you?

It is a lot of money for a potential failed bid. If they do fail, do they blow more moolah bidding for 2022?

Speaking of directing money straight to the top of a sport – didn’t the AFL recently propose a second Sydney team? This issue has been dealt with on this site ad nauseam, but shouldn’t they first put the money into Auskick etc then announce a team when there is a mass of support?

Millster said  | February 26th 2008 @ 1:36pm | Report comment

MC - as you know I hold you in goodwill, and have myself apologised for a few over-the-top pro-football rants to you. But, if you don’t mind me saying so, it is now your turn to apologise for this overly hysterical, insecure posting.

A few points in no particular order.

1. Althetics and most Olympic sports are (outside the Olympics themselves) poorly attended and very heavily subsidised in a whole variety of ways. However, in recognition of the unique nature of the Olympic Games, both Melbourne (1956) and Sydney (2000) put on special arrangements, changed other events, and made the best venues available. The World Cup is an even bigger project and event. Why would the same not apply? That’s not to say that other sports can’t continue - and yes I agree with sharing Aussie culture including AFL with our visitors - but surely they have to accept some degree of accommodation for such a major event. Anything short of that would be downright churlish.

2. Telstra Dome aside, the MCG, SCG and other ovals on which AFL is played are in fact cricket ovals (and yes I do give you credit for realising this about the MCG in your second posting). Sure AFL is a major tenant. But it absolutely CANNOT run the line that it morally owns those grounds which would be World Cup venues. In any case, outside of the MCG, TD and perhaps Subi Oval (unless Perth finally gets it’s act together with a decent stadium) I think it’s more an issue for the venues of the Rugby codes - SFS, Sydney Olympic Stadium, Suncorp, Canberra, etc.

3. My point 3 is that I don’t understand your point 3. Can you please clarify. Not trying to be a smartarse here.

4. Where is your ambition mate? You would well know that some things take a few attempts before success arrives, and this bid may well be a first phase in a longer term plan. And what a national project. In the industry that I work in, putting up $20-50mill for such an endeavour is peanuts. Hell, that amount wouldn’t even buy the undercarriage on a single one of the possible Aussie squadron of F22 fighter planes that are making headlines in today’s press. I agree that 2018 will probably end up in Europe. But just to signal to FIFA that we are a serious, credible, well credentialled force is worth every cent and drop of sweat. More broadly, for all our so-called national ‘can-do’, I think we as a country are gutless wonders when it comes to major projects of any sort(not only sporting). Why not start redressing that…

5. As a mitigator to the above, why are you so scared of what is just currently a press release and some news print? By 2011 (the planned announcement date) there will have been another World Cup, and 3-4 more seasons of HAL. Either ’soccer’ as you put it will have crashed and burned which means this will all go away, or it will continue it’s growth and this project will make sense. We’re not taking about a finishing line that is tomorrow.

In closing, sorry but I do think you are myopic. This issue extends well beyond little old AFL’s place in the world (which seems to be Blacktown at the moment) and I say that with no disrespect to the game which I don’t mind. But who is getting ahead of themselves in putting a ridiculous argument that the indigenous sport, not even nationally followed, in a relatively minor country, should stand in the way of one of the world’s leading events?

And to demonstrate that I am not just talking from a one-eyed soccer-head point of view, if AFL was a world game played in 200+ countries and with a TV audience for it’s final of 2.5bn+ people, and with far-reaching political and sociological ramifications, I would be arguing just the same things for it too.

PS: Surely an AFL that had ‘no problems sharing a sporting landscape’ would pick up and run a couple of seasons in, say, Germany, Brazil, Japan, Russia, Tunisia… after all, if you expect HAL to play in winter, against principles of competitive advantage (and incidentally forcing it to compete more directly against your beloved AFL), then surely AFL and all it’s supposed intrinsic value should also be judged by putting it outside of it’s geographic/seasonal/commercial comfort zone and seeing just how well it fares.

Oh and PPS on the Viduka thing: Should Ben Cousins hold off on a few lines of coke and put the $$ back into say AFL player development in WA’s indigenous communities? Let’s not hold individuals - however good or bad - responsible for infrastructure that should be developed by clubs and/or communities.

Michael C said  | February 26th 2008 @ 2:27pm | Report comment

Millster -

cheers - I deliberately chose a slightly hysterical rant delivery - to be a little provocative. If I’ve gone too far over the top - I apologise. However - I stress - I’d love to see Australia get the event. But - not at all costs.

RE 1. athletics etc, I’ve long decried their over funding - especially in the lead up to Olympics. The way we effectively ‘buy’ medals to make the general populous feel good about themselves - and give the elected leaders some good smiling photo ops - - I find just barely more tolerable than the old days of the East Germans all being employed in the military and therefore, we knew, being effectively full time paid athletes in a supposedly more amateur era. At any rate - certain really, really, minor and in some cases very ‘elite’ sports only exist because they are part of the IOC. The AOC traditionally is more powerful in Australia than is FIFA. Therefore, the AFL got whacked by the Govt with the urging of the AOC to support the IOC WADA code that FIFA themselves weren’t going to sign up to for another 2 years thereafter (and even then with strings attached). So - I recognise this battle for supremacy and that the AFL is small fry in the middle not aligned with either. Anyway - the IOC knows that many of these ‘fringe’ sports that fill out the calender would struggle for crowds if the Olympics weren’t the ONLY game on in town.

Re 2. certainly, there is a lack of rectangular 40K venues, let alone decent 60-80K venues. I doubt that Govts under pressure over water, climate change, health, indigenous affairs etc will want to build more venues than absolutely necessary. Especially given that at present, there’s no reason to believe that the rectangle codes will NEED that many such large venues. There’s no proof yet. The AFL is still the most regular large ground filler in the country - on ovals, probably followed by cricket - obviously also on ovals. So - that would be an issue I reckon on just how loose the purse strings would become. Obviously as well, ovals tend to have a bit of a camber that soccer detests.

Re 3. If soccer schedules the FIFA WC to NOT interrupt their own tournaments, leagues etc - - then, it’s a bit rich to expect other codes to be interrupted. THat’s blatant hypocrisy. And if the AUst Govt were to attempt to ‘force’ the AFL and NRL to make way - that would be something requiring of an awful lot of compensation. Does FIFA pay compensation? Put that one to Les Murray on the ethics committee.

Re. 4 & 5 - I don’t care whether FIFA take us seriously or not. Get the Socceroos winning in the Asian Cup might be a start. I heard Les on SEN last night, and he was ‘over’ a lot of the VIctim Australia whinging that has happened in the past. To me, it just seems like shooting for the stars in a VW beetle…….I reckon the FFA is far, far better getting it’s house a little more in order. Showing that after 10 years the HAL and FFA haven’t shot themselves in the foot. And this is one of those things I think of from the funding and grants application perspective. The track record of soccer in Australia is one of instability and unsustainability. You wouldn’t seriously then be granted huge amounts of money, just for a ‘big’. I am just curious about the Rudd agenda on this topic however.

I’d sooner Australia proove itself NOT a gutless wonder by many other means than simply applying for hosting a soccer tournament. I can see why it means a lot for South Africa. But - we aren’t short of ‘unified’ sports/infrastructure etc. It is a WANT - not a NEED. But - that said, if the MCG got listed as a FIFA WC final venue - then, the MCC would probably triple it’s annual earn on guided tours.

Let’s imagine Baseball Australia wants to host the World Series. However, we need lots of new venues and cricket and the HAL will have to stop to make way. Get real!!!!! Sort it out yourselves.

I thought soccer WAS a winter sport? Although, I did notice Sepp Blatter float an idea of making it a summer sport because it might be more attractive. That doesn’t seem to have caught on yet.
btw - soccer is a global commodity. AFL is a sigle nation commodity. Soccer is far more able to look after itself. However, should AFL seek to expand O-S - and I really doubt it professionally - it would be as a cute little niche rather than a full on competitor. The best I could ever expect is a Nrth American regional level and Euro international level semi-pro league type structure. Certainly not individual country/city pro leagues. But - who knows. Thinking about a 20+ milllion Aust population compared to European or Nth American continental populations - the scale and scope is all vastly different. And makes all the more insignificant in one respect a few hundred competitors here and there. But, as Paul Kelly sings, “From little things, big things grow”.

Michael C said  | February 26th 2008 @ 2:46pm | Report comment

Benny, Benny, Benny

Remember, Soccer is the Brits OWN term of ‘affection’ for ASSOCIATION FOOTBALL.
Soccer is widely used in Canada, New Zealand, USA, Australia, and is interchangeably used in Britian itself. Gee - does that cover most the English speaking world??

“FOOTBALL”
we have American Football, (colloq. “Grid Iron”), Canadian Football, Gaelic Football, Australian Football (colloq. ‘Aussie Rules’, ‘Footy’), Rugby Football Union, Rugby League and Association Football.

Now, just because the good people of Liberia might only be family with one code of football, and therefore when THEY refer to ‘Football’, they mean ‘Association Football’ - then, I don’t see why I, in the worlds most crowded and competitive football market should copy they?!?!?!!?

This is a silly argument, the obvious analogy being that of beer. If you go into a pub anywhere in the world, ask for a ‘beer’ and see what you get offered. I doubt you’ll get offered the same ‘brand of beer’ everywhere in the world. And, if you want one in particular - then, to avoid ambiguity, you provide sufficient information to make yourself clear and understood.

Back to Simon Hill - he comes from England, lives in Sydney and is a soccer fundamentalist. I understand his ignorance. However, as a guest in such a grand and significant venue - he should be a little more aware of it’s history, and a little more respectful via his phrasing. Perhaps he didn’t mean to cause offence - I somehow feel that he might have been a little deliberatly mischevious - if not, then just ignorant. Either way - I don’t rate him. (or, am I getting my own back on behalf of Trevor Grant who in my mind didn’t say anything that every 2nd soccer fan might not say themselves). At any rate, in making such a statement, I think he needed to provide a little ‘qualification’ to his claim.

Going forward -

well, firstly, Fairfax media still has to convince News Ltd accross the board that soccer should be labelled ‘football’. It might happen. It seems a Sydney based movement trying to dictate to the entire country. Personally I hope we can keep Australia from just blindly following, and ensure that local ‘house rules’ apply, including to linguistics.

secondly - the AFL and Australian footballers throughout the country play the game based on the publication “The Laws of AUstralian Football”.

I think, in the Australian context, there’s a fair claim already on ‘Football’. So - join with the AFL and Aust football community as we celebrate 150 years of organised football in this country. We’re, after all, all one big happy family - the football family.

(by the way, original rules of soccer - London FA 1863:

4. A goal shall be won when the ball passes between the goal-posts or over the space between the goal-posts (at whatever height), not being thrown, knocked on, or carried.

8. If a player makes a fair catch, he shall be entitled to a free kick, providing he claims it by making a mark with his heel at once; and in order to take such a kick he may go back as far as he pleases, and no player on the opposite side shall advance beyond his mark until he has kicked.

Gee, where would you go to see rules such as these today?

Michael C said  | February 26th 2008 @ 3:25pm | Report comment

A little off topic by the end, but….

You were more likely to find NRL coverage in News Ltd Herald sun than Fairfax Age!! WHat, are you talking about circa 1996 or something?? Back before Superleague had settled down and News Ltd was firmly entrenched? ACtaully, I went to the SoO at TD 1.5 years ago - a couple of Newie boys who, and a couple non-hardened AFL types. That only got interesting in the last 10 minutes. Up to then, stuff all sense of anticipation that something might happen. (I think I’ve realised that in Aust Footy we want a sense that something might happen any time, and if the game is over with 10 mins to go and we’re losing then that’s our chance to get out of the carpark - where as soccer and rugby seem often that less is likely to happen in the first 70-80 mins than is anticipated for the last 10 mins - - in general - - and I recognise the generalisation of the comment, more just a little observation - so please don’t debate it)

MVFC had a 26K home average this year - largely in part because the FFA stuffed up the fixture, giving Ade Utd 2 home hostings of MVFC in first 8 rounds and making the Vics wait for a GF replay until about Rnd 15 or something. By then, the chances for another 40-50K were lost. Likewise, not scheduling the MV vs SFC the week earlier over the Melb Cup ‘extended weekend’ - missed another 50K there. silly, silly scheduling.

But - yes, MVFC, 22K members, best crowds in the HAL. WIns the GF, same year that Storm wins the GF, and all while AFL has record crowds and membership. We aren’t too worried. So don’t worry too much for us!!

The HAL GF,…..those boys would need a bit more fitness over a larger field and a little more meat on their bones…….

remember, some ‘body type’ is ’sculpted’ to need. We aren’t always talking different gene pools, we’re often talking sports specific conditioning. Coming through juniors one always came across kids who were built like men. They, history often told us, would be the ‘peaked too soon’ stories. Islander kids, a different story - as that is a gene pool issue.

Soccer kids transition far, far better to Aust footy than to the Rugby codes, and transition better FROM soccer to Aust Footy than do Rugby kids to Aust Footy. So long as Aust Footy survives, then, lot’s of NSW and QLD kids playing soccer instead of Rugby isn’t that bad a thing. Might actually be a good thing, the main thing is to have enough of them ALSO playing basketball rather than indoor soccer! Even touch rugby is good, that’s a game about NOT getting tackled - which is part of the flaw in the field Rugby ‘instinct’ when transitioning to Aust Footy.

cheers.

Millster said  | February 26th 2008 @ 4:45pm | Report comment

…and to continue that thread, the only remaining VIC teams would be the Dangenong Rangers and the Macedon Monsters, that is unless AFL becomes an aquatic sport. Which is not at all unlikely given how much tinkering with the rules occurs in that game…

Dave said  | February 26th 2008 @ 5:54pm | Report comment

I think Michael C has a reasonable point. I mean we have had the Rugby Union World Cup in Australia and apparently this year the Rugby League World Cup??? Now it is only right that if we are to have a disruption to the AFL season due to the real World Cup coming to Oz then there should be some pay off for the AFL. I know, why dont we postpone the HAL so the AFL can have their World Cup…i reckon about about 10 minutes should do it (when the AFL make the phone call to the Gaelic Association and are told to p… off as the Irish dont want to get beaten up again). Therefore instead of kicking off next seasons HAL at 7.30 on a Friday in August wait until 8pm…the AFLs World Cup will be well and truly over by then.

Midfielder said  | February 26th 2008 @ 6:06pm | Report comment

MC

I think you understand the power of the world cup to a much greater extent than you say. Its not giving up the grounds for the nations good over four weeks that concerns you but the impact of the event, first the six or so years led into the WC, the matches Australia will have against very high quality teams, and finally the WC itself.

It could even smash the Melbourne media mafia, Peter Fiz in a rugby context made very similar noises to yours about the WC, but with a union fear.

What I find interesting about the AFL (apart from the game itseld) is the AFL decision to declare war on all codes as a way of being there and as a major sport in 30 years. Union is lost and will need all of ONeil’s skills to build from the grass roots, union has have had a top down approach for years, with yes men underneath them to say all is find when it is not at the park level, and without park and grassroots to support it union will struggle.

League, has entered whether by accident or choice a defacto sharing arragement with football of grounds and relationships are forming pertaining to crowd sharing as well. So co-operation and lets grow together.

AFL is the head on all out war.

Will be interesting to see who’s response works better in the long term.

Midfielder said  | February 26th 2008 @ 10:29pm | Report comment

Stamarocks ……….well said and long suspected myself.

Buts what is even funnier is the way they seem to see the whole thing as a war, and keep on the attack, with hype, half truths, etc…………but when it all starts unravil it will be fun to watch. The people I feel sorry for are those rusted AFL hardcores in Mexico who have placed their faith in a management team that will realise to late they were on the wrong track.

Michael C said  | February 27th 2008 @ 9:08am | Report comment

Benny -

For almost 50 years, the pre-eminant ‘football’ magazine from Britian - titled “World Soccer”. I rest my case. (btw- Les Murray holds a first edition copy as one of his most proud possessions…….I wonder if he’s used a black texta to scribble out the word ’soccer’ and replace it with ‘football’?????, now doubt, you yourself would. I think there’s a new found oversensitivity on behalf of soccer folk - most often displayed by those adament that ’soccer’ is a US construct and the use of it is designed purely to demean and repress the soccer world………please tell me you’re not one of those?

midfielder -

It’s actually been the RUgby folk who have come out and declared West Sydney a battleground. And I’m bemused that they (other than Denis Fitzgerald) regard the AFL as such a threat - I think they are using it as an excuse to ‘raise the banners’ in the real fight against soccer. As you say though, at a certain level - FOR NOW - there’s some mutual benefit for the rectangle pitch sharers. However, we all know the battle is at the grass roots level for the players of the future. And soccer is well and truely on the toes of the 2 Rugby codes right through NSW.
AFL fights not with the rectangle ground fraternity, AFL is busy with it’s partnerships with cricket. And so, like the rectangle boys, there is a mutual benefit level of co-operation available and being pursued. One that in reality has always existed and is the initial reason the code came to be.

westy -

oh dear, since when did you believe the spin???

The AFL has said they support the principle of Australia hosting the World Cup. But, similar to the NRL, have no specific information and would be interested in knowing more.

Basically - the right thing to say at this juncture where nothing actually is on the table.

Stamrocks -

what a lot of people fail to understand about many AFL types is that - as a function of being a domestic only code that runs for a defined season - we all have other interests. i.e. the architypal Aust Footy player plays cricket over summer, goes to the Boxing day test, watches a bit of tennis, might follow the nags, watch the FA CUp final and barrack for the Wallabies and Socceroos………very, very few AFL folk a mono-sport folk. I gather, that, because soccer is - if you want it - a 365 day a year ‘global’ event - that, it is very easy for many soccer folk to completely immersed, to be absolutely myopic in a sporting sense.

The other aspect, AFL high performance coaches etc, to study ‘worlds’ best practice, - they MUST look outside of the box. However, I know enough soccer followers who follow other sports who are frustrated by the soccer mono-culture. Invariably, the bigger a market segment becomes, the bigger the comfortable and fat market middle ground - all the fat Jabba’s who have no reason to divert from their rut……

Stamarocks -

I’ll come back to you.

Millster said  | February 27th 2008 @ 11:19am | Report comment

MC - you’ve spoken of this ‘mono-culture’ a number of times before. Can you explain to me what you mean?

I would have thought that it was easier to identify an archetypal social-class/ethnicity/character to each of the 2 Rugby codes and to AFL than to football…

Michael C said  | February 27th 2008 @ 11:55am | Report comment

Millster -

I would hope that to a degree I’m an example of what I mean. (btw - the HAL provides an interesting case study - and ‘clean’ stats from day one - and good ‘excerise’ for someone who deals a lot with reporting/stats etc)

I think you confuse the Sydney demographics of sport with the traditional Aust Footy states demographics.

In Sydney there are clear League and Union partitions. No argument there. Soccer fits in generally, outside of that. Sydney is also more segregated geographically, if, for no other reason than the harbour etc definitely cuts it north south, similar in a sense to Perth (north and south of the river). Melb just spreads out radially.

In Melb, because Aust Footy grew as the suburbs grew in the mid-late 1800s as Melb became wealthy on the back of the gold rush and became the industrial and there fore suburban centre of Australia (at the time, and in some respects still - the former).

It meant that there was no archetypal social/class/ethnic character for a Aust Footy fan. The leather elbow brigade didn’t support a different code or competition, they more so just supported a different club (eg Melbourne, or Carlton). My NOrht Melbourne are known as the Shin-boners on the back of the old abottoirs out around Nth MElb, Kensington/Newmarket area. And those real blue collar workers got to host the blue bloods at the little old industrial heartland Arden St ground…..and take them on at the same game.

The distinction beyond Aust Footy might then be via the 2nd code/sport etc followed. For example, over summer, some might go off to rowing, to yachting, to tennis, to golf, to cricket.

The soccer mono-culture for those who choose it - is that they support the game as a whole, rather than just a club, or just a competition. They can therefore, in this new pay TV and internet age - ALWAYS find a game happening somewhere. And get their fix. These people don’t therefore need or desire any sport other than soccer - and,
at the admin or coaching level, many people will in all likelihood never have contemplated something from another code - as soccer in their mind provides all the perspective they need.

The Aust Footy culture is often that people support their club and hate everyone else and hate the head office.

Many ethnics in Melb still love their soccer - but, the best way to be able to break the ice anywhere and everywhere was the old “So, who do you follow in the footy”, because, everyone has a team and can at least say “Oh, yeah, they aren’t doing that well this year”, rather than launching into a debate of the merits of Union vs League…….

….I have noticed that the RUgby folk in particular can be a bunch of debaters.

The funniest thing though for me is hearing someone whinging about AFL being played like soccer - and they might give up on it……and do just what??? Go to the soccer. The reality though is that people can happily enjoy both - - just so long as they retain their differences. And that’s why, should the HAL forever remain a summer sport - then - happy happy joy joy - we can all be pretty happy, and even if domestic leagues moved to summer probably more footy players would play soccer over summer to stay fit.

Michael C said  | February 27th 2008 @ 1:30pm | Report comment

Midfielder -

are you referring to my response to Stamarocks?,
or
my response to Benny?

My problem with ‘football’ - association football (no major problems with that as a sport that like all others has good and bad aspects), problem with juvenile and smart rrrr’s comments such as

“Enjoy the AFL season but just keep a thought in your mind while you are watching 80 point blow outs at your beloved MCG that Football has awoken and can smell the fear of the other codes.”

I had kinda thunk’d that the Roar might be a level above the school yard.

It is obvious that I’m almost running solo on the AFL front - I gather most AFL punters keep to themselves on Bigfooty etc, and somehow thus far theRoar seems very NSW/QLD Rugby/Soccer focussed. So - I apologise if I labour some points - however, I have realised that the demographic of the audience is in some cases completely ignorant by choice/birth/circumstance/no fault of their own.

Anyway, I find the Aust Football landscape intriguing. ANd I learn more about and to appreciate more my preferred game via learning more about other games and codes. Via another thread in discussion with Sheek you can see some of my main bugbears around scoring in soccer. However, I’ve never stated anywhere that I believe AFL scoring for example is perfect and have quoted where I believe it is deficient.

Hmmm, main problem with soccer for so long in Australia is that it lived off the coat tails of the world. Telling us how great it was because of all it’s overseas relatives……..finally the Australian family is starting to grow up……because, finally it’s decided to BE Australian. About bloody time……now all we need is for the nation as a whole to do the same and become a Republic…..

cheers

Michael C said  | February 27th 2008 @ 2:46pm | Report comment

Yes, Slippery J,

I’m pretty sure I meant to put in on ‘football’ site, it’s not really an ‘other sports’ topic - although, it’s probably more around ’soccer’ points than AFL points…..but alas, no one has thought far enough to put a ’soccer’ tab - such a shame, ’tis a good size game globally but Australians just still don’t regard it in it’s own right. Maybe you should petition theRoar administrators to insert a ‘Soccer’ tab?

……and as you well know, football is a generic term that collectively describes a variety of football codes played variously across the world - and as such, given that this thread pertains to discussion touching specifically on 2 and mentions explicitly a 3rd football code of the 4 major ones within Australia…..then, really, I couldn’t think of a better place to put it.

onside said  | February 27th 2008 @ 3:12pm | Report comment

OK lets get off the subject a bit, if anybody can recall what the subject was.
A bit like great pub debates where nobody finishes a thought or a sentence.

I would like to see some form of send off / sin bin rule introduced to AFL.

I would like to see AFL’s total coverage of the boundary / sidelines introduced
to football. That means four assistant referees to cover both sidelines ..

I’ve got some others ,but that will do for the moment

Michael C said  | February 27th 2008 @ 4:34pm | Report comment

Millster -

I did say “for those who choose it -”, given that you’re clearly NOT in that category (A. I congratulate you, and B. I congratulate you!!)

oikee -
send off is used at most ‘lower’ levels of footy. My comp, the VAFA (Amateurs) have a multi card system of reds, and greens and I think a couple of new ones - I just choose not to worry about what they signify because I’m the cleanest player I know……

There is generally an annual discussion about trialling send off rules in the AFL. The theory especially is that in a Grand Final, you can clock someone who is out of the game, you may then be suspended 10 weeks, but, fat lot of good that is on the day.
Or, maybe apply a rule that if you clean someone up dubiously, then, if they are off hurt for 15 mins, then you should be off for that time too.
Should there be man down scenarios or not - certainly in soccer the often least desired result is a red card in the first 30 mins as that just results in one team playing 9 men back the rest of the afternoon.

I guess the traditional aspect of Aust Footy was to never give that bludger, the umpire - too much power. In the early days the captains umpired and you might appeal to the ‘referee’. (very ‘cricketesque’). The umpire was and always has been of a different breed, and involved only by necessity and to allow the fair dinkum folk to play. Where-as the codes eminating from school sports allow the umpire to effectively ‘enforce’ the game rather like a headmaster the school - which can almost encourage over officiousness rather than just letting the game ‘flow’ - and that’s the sort of umpires we most hate in AFL, the one’s who get out there and seem ego driven to make a “This is my paddock” type of ’statement - - so, to give them the power to send off…….oh, gee, that’s going down a path perhaps best not trod. [I read a bit about it in Geoffrey Blaineys excellent book "A game of our own"].]

cheers Slippery J. (yeah, and mebbe I’ve found my forum(ish), might have to alert Pipps and Redb, can conduct a bit of cross code talk here and get away with it - usually). btw - the thing I find almost most boring is regulation Team A will beat Team B because talk….it’s hard enough to predict the team I follow most closely let alone trying to predict others.

Michael C said  | February 28th 2008 @ 10:46am | Report comment

Midfielder - I was having a specifc go back at Stamarocks -

I was deliberately being negative to a degree for that purpose alone.

Look - certain folk on theROar go to great lengths (other than presenting facts) to assert that the AFL is massaging figures and misrepresenting reality.

I simply presented factual evidence to -
try to silence the twit going on about ‘enjoy your 80 pt margins’……….that was a stupid statement, and I think I’ve proven a point there.
There is also a notion of ‘great crowds’ in the HAL - and the crowds are doing good, and the total average tells a bit of a story. BUt, similar to the NRL saying wow, look, 3 million - they need to qualify that that was on the back of an extra game each week. And, if you look at average NRL crowds, the average figure for 2007 was boosted hugely by the Titans and Broncos and in the heartland it’s very, very average. Reading between the lines can paint a very different picture.
The HAL. The main reason of an increase in crowd average this year is Wellington. Celebrate that. They got that right. Woohoo, the national soccer comp owes 67% of it’s improved crowds this year to….New Zealand. And the rest of Newcastle and Gosford. Relatively stagnant in Syd, Bris, Melb, Ade and Perth. That tells a story too. Especially with up coming regional expansion, more teams, longer season? teams out of the running earlier? the 2nd tier and related costs? extra travel costs to Townsville? diluted player pool? the debate of a finals series vs ‘top of the table champion’ in a non-relegation environment? etc etc - the HAL still has a fair bit of water to flow under the bridge and is a hugely interesting case study to follow - whether a hard core soccer fan or not. And, one of the most interesting sports marketing aspects is the ability of the HAL to deal with what in reality is it’s biggest competiton. That of soccer. i.e. those who compare it (unfavourably) to international leagues, the socceroos are also in competition with the HAL. THe way the HAL markets itself - ‘football, but not as you know it’ - was that aimed at existing soccer fans or was that ‘declaring war’ and seeking to ‘convert’ people from other codes. The ‘90 minutes, 90 emotions’, is that aimed at existing soccer fans? I reckon the HAL needs to first focus on a marketing promotion like this ‘THis is the league you’ve always wanted, so, stop being bitchy and come and support it’. It’s precisely because I understand the ‘global’ aspect of soccer that makes the fight for ‘identity’ of the national Aust League, ever since the old NSL was the FIRST NATIONAL football league - of any code - such an interesting subject. I’m sorry for being at times a little negative,but, if I wanted ‘bubblegum’ discussions on any topic, I’d simply buy the ‘industry’ magazines and read profile pieces and ladder predictions.

AFL - I do want to do a bit of a review of minimun and median and aveage crowds in Vic and out of Vic. There might be a story to tell. However, we no longer have crowds of 10K at suburban grounds with crappy seating, crappy access and crappy toilets. Given that my Roos are even averaging crowds around 30K, they could never fit that many into Arden St (safely).

Michael C said  | February 28th 2008 @ 2:17pm | Report comment

Good afternoon Simon,

Thankyou very much for your comment, btw - in saying I don’t rate you - well, I can’t rate you. Don’t worry, there are many AFL journos who I would rate poorly. I have no reason to rate you is probably more appropriate.

The reference to the ’smell the fear’ articles - I stand by - and can well understand the tone taken, I do still describe it as a bit of a childish rant - however, compared to what you are up against in the Sydney media especially including the News Ltd press that seems to very poorly disguise it’s links to the NRL. As a serious piece of journalism, well, I’m sure you’d be unlikely to nominate those articles for a Walkley award.

Thank you for clearing up the FIFA position.

I would love to attend a WC match in town - and would probably love to have a direct overlap with the AFL season so we could clearly show visitors just what the local game is all about.

Re naming of games. That argument is of course a 2-way street. We who follow Australian Football don’t appreciate ’sporting foreigners’ coming along and trying to dictate to us just that same thing. So long as where ambiguity exists that people make themselves clear. And so long as some people get off their high horse about the ‘true football’ - as abstract a concept as that could ever be anyway. The English speaking world of Canada, US, Australia, New Zealand and England illustrate variously that where ambiguity exists, it is probably fairest to provide a clearer identifier - and no country is more ambiguous than Australia.

MCG - soccer in Australia is fortunate to be able to access such a venue, irrespective of camber of the pitch!!!!!

Slippery Jim said  | February 28th 2008 @ 3:07pm | Report comment

I have no reason to rate you is probably more appropriate

Backpedalling furiously, Michael C?

Michael C said  | February 28th 2008 @ 3:15pm | Report comment

Slippery J -

back peddling, never, I only ever spin the wheels, never go backwards. For Mr.Hill to interpret that I don’t like him is not true. It’s the old concept I try to get through to my children.

“I do not dislike you, I just dislike your behaviour.”

and, my favourite saying other than Voltaires “If religion did not exist”, is his other gem : “though I disagree with what you say, I defend to the death your right to say it”, and I guess, that’s what we’re all doing here.

cheers

Simon Hill said  | February 28th 2008 @ 6:09pm | Report comment

Hi Michael,

I take your points on board. Just a couple of things though - “sporting foreigners” - there are lots of football fans born in this country who would take a similar view to me, and, in any case, why should their background matter so long as they are here legally, obey the law and pay their taxes? Secondly, you may feel my “Smell the fear” articles were childish, but I can tell you they elicited a huge response from the football fraternity (again, the majority of my audience) - most appreciative that someone had finally given the writers from the oval ball codes a taste of their own medicine. The fact a few got uptight about the articles only proved that while such writers were happy to dish it out to football - they weren’t so keen on taking it in return. As regards the ambiguity of the word “football” - I agree with you, but the point is, we are told we are NOT allowed to use it by some fanatics of the oval ball games. If it’s ambiguous, then we should ALL have access to it…no? Finally, and on the subject of access - why should football be “fortunate” to use the MCG? It’s used for many sporting events - Cricket, AFL, Commonwealth Games, League, Union, and when football plays big games there, it attracts big crowds…thus, I presume, paying its own way?

Rgds
Simon

Redb said  | February 28th 2008 @ 7:09pm | Report comment

Michael C,

Well there ya go, Simon Hill was just in revenge mode when he coined his ’smell the fear’ phrase.

Interesting that FIFA does not expect other sports to stop, they just cant use their own stadiums whilst the WC is on?

Re football use, well it was called soccer in Australia only 3 years ago. The governing body - The Australian Soccer Federation, the domestic league - the National Soccer League (NSL) and the the national team - the Socceroos. The debate is not soccer’s own right to align itself with the international scene (bar USA, Canada, NZ,), but many soccer fans now beleive the term is rightfully theirs and all others should change their name. Prerry arrogant don’t you think?

cheers
Redb

Fred said  | February 28th 2008 @ 9:09pm | Report comment

Who cares, just piss the NRL and AFL off for a month, i mean really. Actually, the one person who does care and make a whole lot of difference is Mr K Rudd, a good man, a man with a great sporting vision for our country.

The real question is, does the AFL and NRL think they are above the law?? Are they going to go against the federal government and state governments and block their attempts to bring the biggest sporting event in the world to Australia? Are they going to go against the prime minister? It’s has worked out beautifully, the prime minister wants to bring the world cup here, and the two local codes can do nothing about it, aside from kick and scream.

I look forward to all the media circus that this is going to create over the very long bidding process, and i especally look forward to the AFL paranoia that is flowing from AFL house with every kick of a football.

I might also add that there is no chance of us hosting the WC in 2018, maybe 2022 but even then we are not an ideal host and there are plenty better. The real victory is that the government has realised the potential of the world game and is willing to throw taxpayer money at it.

Michael C said  | February 28th 2008 @ 10:19pm | Report comment

Simon Hill

sorry, I meant by ’sporting foreigners’ not as ‘ethnic foreigners’, as my family is one of those; More from the sense that I think Midfielder or someone (and sorry for using a thread ‘interpretation’) was referring to AFL as a foreign game to him as he’d grown up in Sydney and knew not of it. Therefore, practioners of RU, RL or Soccer bringing their travelling roadshow to town are effectively (by that definition) sporting foreigners - or sporting gypsies or whatever. Certainly - ethnic/cultural back ground is no issue - never should be.

‘Football’ - yep, I’ll argue forever that all codes have rights on the term. It’s the ‘football’ family, and the family tree is an interesting one, especially the branches and those in relative isolation - Australian Footy is like the Galapogas, the US like the continent that broke away, the Irish, well, they’re just a valley that was largely inaccessible.

MCG - Rugby likewise is fortunate to be able to play there. Main point on that is that Govt has funded very little of the present configuration, I think State put in $77m, Feds offered $90m will massive IR strings attached. That was politely refused. The rest is the MCC, and their major revenue sources are memberships and tenants. The major tennant is the AFL/VFL over the years, with big crowds, and the vast majority of members ARE so because of the VFL/AFL grandfinal and because of Boxing Day cricket.
And - they (the MCC) have had the balls to knock down old stands and build modern facilities - where as up in Sydney the ruddy SCG is like a museum piece. It’s lovely, it’s beautifuly, but it let’s down the entire country when only 40K can attend an Ashes Test day of cricket that otherwise would draw 95K to a decent venue………..look, when the Rugby folk came along, they really thought they were putting on a great show, but then the game started, and the next 2 years the crowds progressively fell away and they gave up.
btw - the beauty of the MCG is for the ‘56 Olympics and the recent C’wealth games - unlike the Sydney Olympic stadium - there was no concern about putting in temporary seating - the capacity wasn’t going to be wasted.

Midfielder said  | February 28th 2008 @ 11:23pm | Report comment

Redb

You said ” don’t mind the English game”……………insert world for English.

In another thread on the football war, and a number of articles I have read is that US, Australia, Canda & NZ, major codes are other than soccer, part of the reasoning was in a way of not conforming with the English. So your choose of words is interesting as maybe burning deep down within the AFL soul is to rebel agianst the Ebglish.

MC I have played RU (some), RL (lots even at a semi professional level), Football (mostly) , but I have played a little AFL and been to some park games and one season played football along side an AFL oval and watched I guess half a season of Sydney Park AFL (not sure of the standard)

So AFL is not foreign game as you put it, but from someone brought up on holding the ball, I found TBH AFL scrappy with to much scoring, and a game designed for people much taller than my 5′ 4″ & 9.5 stone way back when.

But I was never fearful of the game and found many people who played it quite decent people just out for a bit of fun, the same as me. So the very things you like and enjoy about AFL I deplore, and I respect your right to play your game without much comment from me. In fact my one phrase of I found AFL scrappy with to much scoring is the only thing in all my posts I have said about the game.

Westy said  | February 29th 2008 @ 1:21pm | Report comment

” AFL can be scrappy at lower standards”Thanks Michael you have aptly described Sydney AFL. The AFL’s original controversial objective of selectively targeting more elite junior athletes in Sydney is the way to go to build a pool of players for new franchises. The current local competitions are poor. eg. a local rugby league primary school ( the school plays on the weekend) in north west Sydney won the Paul Kelly Cup And finished runner up the year after. There was only one AFL player the rest were Leaguies and footballers. This is good exposure for the game but they are the players you want are not playing after it. You are getting those who cannot cope with the physicality of League and rugby or the athleticism of premier youth football league. It is these players you need. The skill level here is poorand in reality they have produced very few quality players.

Midfielder said  | February 29th 2008 @ 5:19pm | Report comment

MC

The 1970’s classic song “I was lost in France in Love”, is how I think of you and AFL. I have never seen a more devoted fan, so please read my words and don’t see what is not there.

When I said scrappy that is how I see AFL, and I did not like high scoring games with a goal scored every five or so mins, or basketball with a basket scored every 2 mins or so.

I actually like to see good and strong defence, Canterbury & Parrmatta played a famous grand final won 4-2 by Parrmatta but with five mins to go the score was 2-1, then parra scored a try and it was 4-2 (try was only worth 3 points then). The defense that day had every supporter from both camps screaming their team on to hold on. Therefore ball control and controled passing of a high quality I appreciate and AFL provides neither for me, except that I urge you with grace. I will equally respect your not liking it and love of your sport but please stop lecturing me / us on what and why we should enjoy AFL.

I loved watching Micheal Beahmond of the central coast Mariners in his defensive role in fact he was voted the fans player of Hal , so our game is totally different and we look at defense as very important not only scoring, see Lucas Neil at West Ham about 10 million per year as a sweeper and team captian.

Anyway I am off to a mates farewell so have a good weekend MC, and watch your AFL

Michael C said  | March 2nd 2008 @ 3:57pm | Report comment

MIdfielder -

I here this a lot -

the appreciation of defence - - however, soccer is so heavily weighted to the defenders that - via off-side, no hands other than the goalie, a x-bar, invariably it’s not played man on man, but, rather, with pre-defined stacked defenses……..could I just suggest that the line of admiring well crafted defence in a game that is defensively geared - is a bit underwhelming to me………however, you can barely be admiring well crafted attack as the recognition by coaches is that at least half the goals are the result of defensive error - - often towards the end of the game where fatigue and self imposed pressure of the clock winding down can lead to brain-explosions.

Scrappy AFL is often super high intensity - pressure, it ain’t easy y’know. Never take for granted the people who look like they have that extra little bit of time - because, there isn’t much - (in the ‘clinches’ - whatever they are!!!).

If you want to watch something that looks like a training drill - - well, normally that’s just what it is.

Scoring every 5 mins, well, depends, if my team scores every 5 mins they’ll get 24 goals for the day - I’ll be very, very happy with that. Doesn’t happen often.

The silly thing, I love test cricket just because of the notion of the delicate sway to and fro of the pendulum of game balance, and the potential of what might happen in the next period of play…….but, invariably, even more happens in the scorebook, on the scoreboard - y’know, we ‘games’ are measured - compared to most games of soccer. So much happens with no measurement. 0-0 at half time…..please, don’t show me the half time highlights……of nothing, what, near misses, a good save or 2. (near misses - that’s like showing the behinds). I remember Paul Wade gushing about Harry Kewell, “Is there nothing he can’t do”…..well, that particular day, he couldn’t score, he missed his chances……sometime, I realise that true soccerheads are absolutely sporting romantic tragics (good luck on that front). BUt - to enjoy watching good defence is like enjoying watching Chris Tavare or Geoff Boycott bat and that really was like watching paint dry or grass grow.

Cheers.

Westy said  | March 2nd 2008 @ 4:52pm | Report comment

Michael C…. Brutally Michael in a city of over 4 million it is not good. I am here and watch. With a few notable exceptions you basically have kids from one ethnic group and socio economic class. I have three boys who between them play the 4 codes and enjoy them. Sydney AFL is a little soft. The better players still play League or rep football or rugby on saturday for the competitive hard edge. If AFL wants to succeed it must unequivocally target and pool Quality young athletes in Sydney whilst it builds its 2nd team. You may not know these names but until the AFL gets athletes like Hayne, INu, Beale , turner, Tahu,Lawrence, Marshall etc and names you would know like Cahill and Kewell it does not even touch the quality gene pool in this city. These kids are here and harshly Sydney SWans has not got one yet. I am talking about the special ones.

Michael C said  | March 2nd 2008 @ 9:21pm | Report comment

Midfielder -

I figure you still regard ‘great ease of scoring’ - - to me, that’s the problem - it’s not easy (yes, it’s easier than in soccer), but, again, people often forget that defense is easier than attack (that’s why I’m a born defender). It is easier to punch than to mark, it is easier to find space heading OUT of the backline than INTO the forward line (due to the shape of the ball) - - and, the increased interchange (4 available compared to previously 2 or in the old days 1 or 2 subs) - has actually probably done more to ensure defensive pressure is more able to be sustained over the full 4 qtrs. Good forwards are very hard to come by.
So - yes, it’s easier than scoring in soccer. But, not easy. And certainly, an attacking game of soccer with both teams trying to WIN is worth watching - all too often one team is purely trying to retain a clean score-sheet - that’s too much like facing a target of 350 in a ODI and deciding to just bat out 50 overs and make 240 - we like seeing a challenge issued and a challenge accepted - football should be like parliament, adversarial.
And AFL wise, my Rooboys back in 2006 looked like they weren’t even trying to win - there were games I attended that I had no desire to sit to the end -(it was niether entertaining nor developmentally encouraging) - and finally last year, even at 0-3 after 3 rounds, I was proud of the new displayed effort and could never have foresaw that they would end up top 4 - just by ‘having a go’. It’s the contest what which we all crave.
The little secret re AFL is when you have individual match ups all over the ground - that’s worth watching, from my perspective as a Roos man back in the ’90s we always anticipated especially the Carey-Jakovich match up playing v WCE. Or more recently our best ‘tagger’ Brady Rawlings running with a Chris Judd - - there are people with very specific roles - and those are often the highly critical shut-down defensive efforts - such as one of the very few times the Umps rewarded a fullback with 3 Brownlow votes when Silvagni did a job on Plugger.

btw - re. players. The conversion of kids from soccer to League - I doubt that many would realistically be progressing to top notch League (I could stand corrected here - but I’d suspect too vast a difference in games/skills/body physique). Given the participation rates - for soccer to actually refine their own talent pathway is the most critical thing. Use better what soccer already has.
Don’t overrate the balance/vision/foot skill the AFL would not gain if not via soccer. I know very, very few successful converters - growing up playing footy you develop vision, foot skills and balance pretty well - or perish - however, again, basketball as an allied sport is good for vision/decision making and hand/eye, soccer as an allied sport is good for balance/footskill etc as you say.
400 players you say. The NSL was formed in 1977, what, 14 teams? In fact, about 40+ different participating clubs over the journey. That figure of 400 wouldn’t be that much different to at any given time - and, given population increase since then, etc, there ought be a natural growth.
It’s still the challenge for soccer, the game of such ‘finesse’ and ‘touch’ and technical demand - the challenge is to develop more exclusive soccer kids - and retain them. To develop quality rather than just quantity - because, there’s no shortage of quantity - really, is there?

Westy -

and from the NRL - I think Greg Inglis would seriously be ‘convertable’ - - to me, look at Lance Franklin at Hawthorn and that could be Greg Inglis in footy.
Agreed re. the swans - they are at least doing more in recent times around listing local rookies, and I think ‘development’ coaches are improving. However, the ‘talent pathway’ statewide needed more work, and the AFL have taken learnings from QLD to NSW now. The next 4-5 years will be telling. I won’t say anything silly like ‘watch this space’…..but, you never know…

Midfielder said  | March 2nd 2008 @ 10:49pm | Report comment

MC

The 400 kids they would not all have gone to AFL & NRL, but many would have in the old NSL days, the difference in wages and profile was such that many did change. Many still will, but not in the same numbers…………what NRL or AFL club would not have wanted the young Mark V or Timmy Cahill, Lucas Neil etc, At the Central Coast in Hal 1 Micheal Beauchamp would have been an ideal AFL player.

My simple point is many Australian football player across all codes start out playing football, and in the past many left in their teens, to other codes, ………MC all I am saying many of the talented ones are staying which is different to 20 years ago.

The easy to score, …………..MC please don’t even try to tell me it is hard to score in AFL by comparission to any of the other football codes you loose credibility if you do. Manybe esay is to harsh but hard no.

Westy ………….. football has more juniors in western Sydney than union and league have in total across Australia,…………..when the FFA finally move a team to Western Sydney they will have Australias best junior league (football that is) and a massive support base. The only reason I can think of FFA not moving one there already is to give NEW FOOTBALL time to seperate itself from OLD SOCCER. Why you ask because Western Sydney was the heart land of OLD SOCCER and many there still want back in the big time and they have clubs and money to do it. Uncle Frank wisely is not letting them back in and it is intersting that Blacktown or Penerith is were they will more than likely go (obivious to anyone looking at it) and that is were AFL are headed ……………very interesting times ahead.

Midfielder said  | March 3rd 2008 @ 10:35am | Report comment

MC

In very simple terms, ……and correct me if I am wrong………a normal type of score in AFL could be 9 , 11or 65 points plays 11 , 9 or 83 points. As I count it that is 40 goals in 120 mins or a goal every 3 mins. My only point is this much scoring does not get me …………….don’t think it ever will.

Your point on SFC is quite astute Hal 4 will be interesting maybe you are right it may go the way of Basket ball, but if it does not and is still standing in 10 years having grown a little each year the Australian sporting landscape I think anyway will be different.

MC I posted an article by a Melbourne jurno by the name of Richard Hinds on Saturday in the football wars thread and would be interested in your take on his article, prehaps in that thread so as not to confuse anyone reading this that has not read the article

Max emery said  | March 4th 2008 @ 2:52pm | Report comment

Hell, I’d stop AFL for a Gilligan’s Island cast reunion let alone a Soccer World Cup. Putrid sport.

If in the unlikely event that Australia does win the Soccer World Cup, AFL will make way for it whether they like it or not.

Michael C said  | March 4th 2008 @ 3:29pm | Report comment

Midfielder -

now - you are being mischievous trying to claim a behind as a goal.

I still maintain - and more so in soccer - defence is easy. Attack and successful conversion is the hard bit - which is generally why the good practioners of such make the real big bucks. Perhaps, before people became better athletes, and in general goalies increased in size by about 10 cm in height - back when goals might be ‘relatively easier’ to come by - perhaps then the attitude was more appreciative of scoring and games that changed in nature a little more often due to the changing nature of the scoreboard. It’s not that foreign a concept - just need the goals to get a bit bigger again.

The object of the game is surely to score - otherwise, how else to you propose to win?

Let me stress the point -
AFL - 1 goal (kicked cleanly by attacking team) = 6 points.
1 behind (scored by a variety of manners, including what in soccer terms would be an accepted full point(s) goal - i.e. ‘own goal’, touched ball or defelction off wood work, or deflection off a part of body not deemed to be a kick) = 1 point.
Most certainly - in the AFL definition of a ‘GOAL’, a behind IS NOT a goal. However, by the soccer definition - which is far more liberal - I can understand your confusion.

At any rate - how many fewer goals would there be in soccer if you had to actaully only ‘kick’ them yourself? without deflection……you’d then have about 1 goal every 4 games.

Then you’d be in sporting nirvana I imagine, oh, such wonderful defense as must be seen to be believed…….

btw - again though - Aust footy perhaps should only count behinds on countback should goals be level. That is always a criticism I can handle - as, I’m the only person I’ve seen or heard raise it!!!! However, a greater than 1 pt value for a goal is not at all strange in a sporting sense. Soccer - true - the simple game - allows anything to count as a goal and only requires counting by 1’s to a maximum as provided by fingers on hands. Excellent! Simple that is, until you need to correctly adjudicate the off-side……..a constant source of angst and frustration.

—-

There’s no perfect games - just different games. That’s the whole point.

Max Emery -

People such as yourself are the greatest enemy of soccer in this country. Attitudes such as yours will only create enemies.

john Ryan said  | March 7th 2008 @ 7:43pm | Report comment

Good on you Max Emery

Dos of Adelaide said  | March 8th 2008 @ 1:10pm | Report comment

Children of the Revolution,
Children = Playing Football (round ball)
Revolution = Football (round ball)
Australia in 10 Years time = Children grown up and playing the Round ball game.
You wont fool the children of the revolution…
Methinks you’re part of a dying breed here Micky C, Natural Selection tells me you either start following the real Football soon or start dying out like the rest of them…
P.S cheers for getting those stats for me i was looking to see how much the average A-League crowd numbers had risen V.3. :]

Midfielder said  | March 10th 2008 @ 8:52am | Report comment

MC

Sorry cannot see how when a point is scored when the goal goes between two posts it is not a goal.

Makes little difference to my arguement …………..a goal scored every 3 or 6 mins is way to much, even the 6 min goal has a one point goal in the middle. As I said I simply do not like high scoring games.

Michael C said  | March 11th 2008 @ 9:37am | Report comment

Millster -
certainly, I’ve seen the figures estimated for Sth Africa, and economic benefit about 15-20 times that of the ICC World Cup.

That’s beyond dispute.

No one would say it’s not worth hosting.

The preparing of a bid however, that’s less tangible, their an implicit benefit if that planning/costing etc is something that will otherwise be workeable and beneficial, and isn’t happening anyway - and, in reality, should be. That’s a less tenuous link really, and perhaps more just marketing spin to sell the notion of bidding for biddings sake.

Much prefer the $30-50 be funnelled into the country retain an F1 GP - even though I don’t care 2 hoots about car racing. That’s an annual event.

Michael C said  | March 11th 2008 @ 10:16am | Report comment

Martin Buchan -

perhaps you might want to refer to my article on the AFL tab suggesting that we are in fact celebrating 150 years since a game of rugby in Melbourne. I have no dispute that many Aust Footy scholars and others alike seem a little blinded by what Rugby is today as to the actual rules played post 1845. Certainly Thomas Wills ‘exported’ the game of Rugby to Australia - and henceforth, in Melbourne the ‘evolution’ of a locally appropriate game began.
At what time was it clearly identifiable as the ‘local game’. That’s a reasonable question.

However, likewise, we can ask how much the school game of Rugby can be recognised versus the 1871 establishment of the RFU. Or, that whilst the London FA established in 1863, their rules provided explicitly for NO x-bar and allowed fair catches, and, only upon merging with the Sheffield Association did soccer more clearly become the game we know now - and that was in the mid/late 1870s.

Note - the game between Melb Grammer and Scotch College is celebrated annually by a game between those institutions. And it was certainly an important element in getting the ‘ball rolling’ for the locals to determine their own take on ‘football rules’. Next year, Melbourne FC can most certainly celebrate it’s 150th birthday. Should the AFL then also celebrate that too? (there’s a good argument to say ‘yes’). Certainly the cetenary season of the VFL/AFL was worth celebrating - however, with the flipside being that it stressed that the competition STILL IS the expanded VFL. Which it is. So long as people were comfortable with that, then fine. And that’s the separation of the single competition from the ‘game’ in general. Aust Footy is bigger and broader than the AFL. Local competitions are joining in the celebrations, and, certainly the VAFA in which clubs such as Melbourne Gammar Old Boys and (Old) Scotch etc play - as particular reason to celebrate.

Which is what we’re really saying - the notion of ‘playing football’ is as old as recorded history. The rules themselves are not overly relevant. They so often reflect more upon the ‘local environment’ as anything else.
Who ‘owns’ ‘FOOTBALL’. No one. The fact that there are ‘local variants’ around the world is part of the ‘rich tapestry’ of culture and history pre-globalisaiton.
btw - many of the local ‘village’ versions (highway versions if you wish?) involved simply two mobs trying to move a ‘ball’ from one point to another. By what ever means possible. I don’t know how much nicety of technical kicking occurred.
You’re historical reference is become a little selective and a little ‘washed’.

Your final points.
In Aust Football - as played currently, you play the man with the ball. Just as in soccer the man in possession can be tackled, and some more delicately than others, I’ve seen (including recently) some mighty fine leg ‘explosions’ due to the delicate nature of tackling with BOOTS rather than above the knees and below the shoulders as is the legal tackle in Aust Footy, and not involving pushing in the back.

I agree that handball can be over used. I’m a great believer in precision via foot. Alas, certain rule ‘tweaks’ seem to have encouraged this. I’d love to have a chat with the rules of the game folk. There appears a ‘genetic engineering’ style plan to ‘modify’ the game into something that it may or may not have become anyway.

Quick goal ‘gratificatin’. That’s interesting. THat seems the main argument of some. As a supporter, in Aust Footy, there are enough quarters that you sit through wondering where your first goal will come from, enough scoreless periods of play. The fact is that what you denegrate as ‘quick goal gratification’ can be alternately regarded as fair reward for effort. Much in the style of an egalitarian social-democratic society that believes in a ‘fair go’. A fair days pay for a fair days work. THerefore, the notion of the scoreboard more often than not being a fair refection of the effort applied on the park seems in keeping. Quick gratification is a coarse and perhaps ignorant comment.

Union Jack - should I call you “RObert Gordon MEnzies” —- who insisted, even after the debacle of the fall of Singapore that Australia still was (as he described himself) “British to my bootstraps”. Alas, we’ve moved on. The sooner we become a REpublic and get rid of that ridiculous colonial/imperial subjugating rag masquerading as a ‘national emblem’ the better.

Midfielder -
see above re ‘reward for effort’.

I’m not much for the notion of playing 90 minutes for a zero ‘reward’. How does that provide anyone a sense of achievement. Played 90 minutes and we couldn’t score. Wow….aren’t we glad we made the effort to come out today.

Alas, in my junior footy days, we got drubbed a few times, 30 goals to maybe 1. But, on our good days against a reasonably even competitor, we could get our 10 goals or so, play a close game, and after the game more people are happier, they can talk about the goals they contributed to or scored. And if you made a mistake that let through a goal or two to the opposition - that’s okay, because, it happens, your not the pariah becuase you conceded the only goal of the game to the team that beat you. Especially should that score happen very late in the game - because, you know, that the first goal conceded in the first quarter was just as crucial as the last one. You don’t go blaming people. You just work out how you can score more goals the next time yourself…..because….yes, IT IS ABOUT ACCUMULATING A WINNING SCORE. This is a discussion for elsewhere however.

FUnny how you soccerheads have dragged the conversation here. Ever wonder why some people get entirely sick of the self righteoness of soccer evangelists and fundamentalists.

I’ve already stated, I’d love to see the FIFA World Cup in Australia.

I doubt we’ll get it.

And it’s nice we’ve had the Olympics - - twice remember, Melbourne, Australias first Olympic city.

I do think however, the FIFA World Cup is more desired at present than the Olympics. I think it’s a bit easier to run a tournament for 32 teams playing the one sport than it is to accomodate 180 countries worth of athletes playing in such a wide variety of sports/events.

So - yes, we got the Olympics - but, the FIFA WC - a totally different matter - and Australia isn’t the beacon country in Asia that it might like to think it might be.

Max emery said  | March 11th 2008 @ 11:03am | Report comment

“Max Emery -

People such as yourself are the greatest enemy of soccer in this country. Attitudes such as yours will only create enemies.”

Michael C.

Incorrect. The people who cause Soccer problems are people like Simon Hill and other Soccer journos who have the odd pointless dig at the other codes. What they do is alienate the casual fan who could turn into a true fan. I am not a Soccer journo and the impact of me saying that AFL is a crap sport is negligible.

It’s crap. Vile, disgusting, unco-filled crap.

I’ve followed Soccer (Yes I still call it Soccer too), mainly the English variety, for 40 years, but my first love is Rugby League. I would welcome the Soccer World Cup and would be happy to forego my NRL for a couple of months to have the opportunity to see the world’s best Soccer players in Sydney.

I find the attitude of the original writer hilarious. I can imagine reaction when FIFA is told the AFL would like to be briefed on the possible World Cup in Australia.

“Why would the Arena Football League want to know about that” ?

Michael C said  | March 11th 2008 @ 11:34am | Report comment

Max Emery -

The irony is I can well sympathise with Mr.Hill regarding being driven to action. I could well sympathise with him the frustration in a city with one of the major news papers owned by the people who half own the ‘major game’ in town.

as the original writer - given that it is largely a hypothetical - the angle of the article was to inspire a little discussion (that’s happened) and a little thought.

My primary attitude is that :

The FIFA world cup would be great - in Australia - but I really, really doubt us getting it. [GIven the scrapping of rotation policy - officially - but, we now see an effective minimum 3 WC cyclical rotation policy - we know that Europe WILL get it every 12 years, i.e. a Confed can't host it that has hosted one of the last 2 WC's. And Europe need that in place ASAP, the soonest they CAN host it is 2018. They WILL host it in 2018, so then the next one is 2030. That can almost be a given. It's the 2 in between that will be the 'possibles'. And, sure as heck, for 2022, FIFA will be hoping the post Olympics CHina will be keen to maintain their world momentum and host the WC. That'll lock Australia OUT until at earliest 2034. That's my opinion. Feel free to tell me there's less than 50% chance of that outcome.]

But-

were we to host the FIFA WC, it’d be fabulous, I’d love to take overseas visitors to the MCG on Friday night for 85,000 to see Collingwood vs Carlton (even as a NOrth Melb supporter) and then go with them on Tuesday evening to Telstra Dome, along with another 50K to watch Saudi Arabia vs Tunisia. Love it, love it, love it — it’d be the greatest boost ever seen for the (non AFL funded nor ‘encouraged’) evolutionary growth of Aust Footy overseas outside of the ex-pat population.

Max emery said  | March 11th 2008 @ 12:23pm | Report comment

Michael, I have no sympathy for Simon Hill when he tries to ignite interest in Soccer by maligning the other codes. It’s like the stupid “Call it Football” debate, no one outside Soccer circles gives a toss what Soccer people call it.

The problem is a simple one for Soccer in this country;

When I spend my hard-earned to see sport live, I want to see the best. I can do that with the NRL and if I chose to I could do that with Rugby Union and even, God forbid, AFL. The supporters of those three sports see the best in the world regularly, unfortunately the same cannot be said for Soccer supporters in Australia.

As much as I love Soccer the A League just isn’t up to scratch and no amount of chest-beating is going to change that. I followed the A League for its first two seasons but I gave up halfway through this season because the quality was abysmal. People like myself who are used to watching the best in action, the A League will struggle to get me interested again.

By the way, there’s a snowflake’s chance in hell of us getting the Soccer World Cup in the next 20 years. Anyone who thinks differently has problems….

As has anyone who thinks that FIFA or Soccer in general would give two hoots if the AFL wants to be briefed should Australia actually be a shot at hosting the World Cup….

BTW, AFL sucks.

Midfielder said  | March 11th 2008 @ 12:38pm | Report comment

MC

You said “FUnny how you soccerheads have dragged the conversation here. Ever wonder why some people get entirely sick of the self righteoness of soccer evangelists and fundamentalists”

EVER HEAR OF THE JAG CALLING THE ALFA EXPENSIVE

Redb said  | March 11th 2008 @ 1:14pm | Report comment

Does anyone know if the NFL had to move games to accomodate the soccer World Cup in the USA a few years ago? My bet is no.

Therefore what is being asked is unique in that domestic sports that are in direct competition are being asked to step aside in the middle of their season. You can say what you like about AFL, but it does have a huge vested interest in this country and it enjoys world standard crowd levels that require big stadiums. I’m sure this is a new thing for FIFA and whilst they don’t give a stuff, doesn’t make it right. The AFL and NRL should be well compensated at the very least by the Fed Govt who are now bank-rolling the bid with our/my money.

Now if only the World Cup was scheduled in the soccer season in Australia this wouldn’t be a problem. That’s when I’m happy as a tax payer to host the Soccer World Cup. Insular maybe, selfish yes, my first love is the footy.

cheers
Redb

Towser said  | March 11th 2008 @ 1:24pm | Report comment

Max
As you’d rather watch third rate ‘Pommie” football over your own, I’ve catered for you by starting an opinion peice about the divided loyalties in football in Australia.

Max emery said  | March 11th 2008 @ 1:38pm | Report comment

Towser.

You seem to think I’m giving Soccer a serve, I’m not, I’m a Soccer fan. I’m telling everyone exactly why I, a soccer fan, don’t go to A League games.

The point is a simple one and in my opinion its inarguable, serve up the good stuff and we’ll go or we’ll watch. Crapping on with a theory that A League players are, in comparison, equal to their NRL, AFL or S14 counterparts is nonsense.

If a Soccer player is world class, he doesn’t play in the A League. If an Australian Football, Rugby League or Rugby Union player is world class, chances are he play in the AFL, NRL or S14 respectively.

When we have the 200 odd Australians currently playing in Europe playing here, we’ll go or we’ll watch.

When Kewell, Cahill and Co. ply their trade on these good shores, we’ll go or we’ll watch.

With those guys, comes the quality the A League needs.

Hell, David Beckham filled two rather large stadia on his lonsome and he’s hardly world class any more.

The problem is that we’re not easily conned. You can’t make me think the A League is of a decent quality when I’ve seen it and know it isn’t. You can’t make me think there’s some Syndey / Central Coast tribal rivalry when I know it’s 20 years away. You can’t convice me the atmosphere is fantastic because people like to sing because I’ve never felt the need to sing at an NRL game simply because I am too busy watching the game.

If you’re going to con anyone con AFL fans, anyone stupid enough to follow that sport should jump at the chance to watch some C Grade Soccer.

When it turns the corner, when I can watch a few weeks of A League that aren’t cringeworthy, I’ll get off my arse and go to a game. Until then, I’ll keep following the English Soccer, going to internationals (expcept the B Grade ones where the side is made up of A League players) and hoping that one day I’ll get my wish.

BTW, AFL sucks.

Max emery said  | March 11th 2008 @ 1:55pm | Report comment

Millster, I understand the argument but it doesn’t make the A League any more palatable to someone who has actually followed Soccer for any length of time.

There were A League games I watched this year that were no better than park footy. And not just one, they were plentiful early in the season and they were there at the end too. I stopped watching after 4 or 5 weeks in and tried again with a semi and the final. Same stuff as I’d seen earlier, awful. The odd gem doesn’t make up for them, it really doesn’t.

The A League GF was an awful game saved by a bit of aggro at the end.

Towser said  | March 11th 2008 @ 2:33pm | Report comment

Max
No I dont think your giving football a serve,I think your giving local football a serve.
A serve I have heard many times over the years ,hence my opinion peice to find out why.
To be honest anybody who believes that third rate Pommy football is better than the A-League should stick to the NRL as you’ve already deemed it to be world class and wont be disappointed,because the standard of football your seeking will never be seen in this country.
Personally I’m well pleased with the A-League, as are obviously many other Australians.
I have followed overseas football all my life and remember saying the same thing you said about the NSL until the A-league came along.
Believe me watching overseas football on TV is not the same as being at a match.
Sure you dont see the silky skills of the EPL or the Serie A but the commitment and intensity is there and as this season has shown once again it is an evenly balanced competition.
Overseas football is sometimes a TV figment of peoples imagination being bigger and better because its over there,well after staying up to watch last years boreathon called the FA Cup Final its not all of the time ,just like any sport.

Michael C said  | March 11th 2008 @ 3:21pm | Report comment

One element of ‘world class’ is purely the appropriately ‘conditioned’ athletes from various nations battling it out.

The reality is that quite often, a particular country might be dominant such that the ‘greatest’ contest would be the A team vs the B team from that countries ‘domestic talent pool’. At various time is recent years that could be said of Australia in cricket.

What can be measurably ‘world class’ can be:

Training and conditioning facilities and ’science’ (personnel included)

Training KPIs (i.e. world wide recognised key indicators of ‘elite’ or ‘world class’ conditioning having been achieved - - i.e. world class athletes, - - but, no judgement whatsoever on skill, sports nous/talent etc, purely conditioning).

And this is the thing that get’s missed in some discussions.

The line about 1 in 300,000 being the representative ‘quality’ of a sport vs another being 1 in 800. That’s a single ‘measure’.

However, at a certain level, it’s the foundational counditioning of the athletes that will have a big say in their ability to play at whatever highest level and really be considered world class athletes (within a team combative sport).

On that basis - it may well be that the top 20% of NRL and AFL at any given time are indeed world class ‘athletes’. Whether they are ‘world class performers’ is another issue altogether. That may be a little more subjective, as, depending upon their role in their particular sport - someone from a different perspective just may not rate what they do.

And, so, at the end of the day - there may only be so many ‘genetic freaks’ per million population, but, I’d rather the sport I watch and love (especially as an aspirational child) to NOT be the exclusive domain of ‘genetic freaks’ or the top 0.001 percentile of body types who then must also be super athletes (no, look, genetic freaks still holds - - yes, I’m thinking US basketball here). I don’t mind the AFL, NRL scenarios, you can get there with a good ounce of talent and a whole lot more determination and work ethic. That means, a child CAN be engaged with the hope of getting there - not just if they are lucky enough to be a certain size or absolutely blissfully possessing of freakish skills.

So - if the knockers want to claim that Kieran Jack is a small unco kid (irrespective of blood lines) and therefore, the AFL are welcome to him, well, I’d counter with - if he is good enough and able to ‘make it’ then the AFL will gladly accept him. (just as an example).

Millster said  | March 11th 2008 @ 3:32pm | Report comment

“but, at least no team went home having NOT scored.”… “games NOT contrived by overly negative and restrictive rules and structures”

I’ve seen you write this a few times.

Perhaps an indicator of a game contrived by overly positive and unrestrictive rules, and by lack of structure…?? (I’m sure followers of both rugby codes would join me in that question)

In support of that I note that your “super-game” example had an aggregate score of a whopping 330 points! To use a more meaningful number, 70 scoring shots! Holy cow was there time for any decent gameplay, any tactical subtlety, nuance, tension, your beloved ‘ebb and flow’ between all the frantic pinging away at the sticks?

PS I was thinking of you while enduring the delayed telecast of the NAB cup final. Right result of course (being a somewhat Saints supporter) but goddamn it didn’t paint your game in good light overall.

Redb said  | March 11th 2008 @ 3:48pm | Report comment

Michael C,

Kinda fond of marshmellows cooked over a fire. Seem to remember the Kangas feeling sort of scorched after that game

Re international aspect of AFL, its amazing what the internet has done to international footy, its created a way to communciate and cross boundaries. To think the USA was completely devoid of footy ten years and now it has over 60 teams is amazing. It also demonstrates the power of expats taking the game around the world, and this is where European games like soccer and the rugby codes have benefited from the sheer numbers of expats.

As you know one of the most admiral things about the AFL IC is that no expats can play for their adopted country, must be nationals only.

cheers
Redb

Millster said  | March 11th 2008 @ 4:04pm | Report comment

RedB - I agree that AFL is good at the ground. Then again I’m the sort of sicko that thinks the same of football - I like the whole positional / structure thing and HATE when a TV camera gets in too close and denies me the big picture.

On ‘its all what you’re used to’ I agree for the southern states. But just remember in making that comment that NSW and QLD play codes of ‘footy’ where you often have less than say 8-10 total tries per game.

Again, I stress I’m not anti-AFL and like the odd game. But I want to take MC to taks on talking of ebb and flow, and for that matter any tactics at all, and then using example games where a scoring shot occurs on average every 1.37 minutes.

PS: don’t you find basketball boring? And that’s a game where it is absolutely expected to score each time you’re up the end of the court, and in fact where a ‘good’ play is a defensive block that stops the otherwise-default 2 or 3 points.

Millster said  | March 11th 2008 @ 4:19pm | Report comment

taks = task (sorry!)

Michael C said  | March 11th 2008 @ 4:26pm | Report comment

Millster -

Gotta say, re basketball - I find it more annoying that after scoring a goal, they don’t do the footy thing and go back to the centre for a neutral restart - - that way, you’d lose the contrived my turn, you turn style of the game. That’s one of the key elements for footy - you DO NOT have a turn based game. So, if it’s high scoring, and going ‘goal for goal’ - - that’s not the contrivance of the rules happening, - that’s the game being played out via teams battling a neutral contest in the centre of the ground.

At it’s simplest - the quintessential AFL ‘play’ (as perfected at training but rarely on a match day)

Ruckman taps to midfielder running past who breaks into the open, has a bounce, runs his full distance and slots a goal from about 50 on the run. Perfect. Sometimes you might see that once in a game.

If it were that easy - yep, it’d be pretty routine and a bit ho-hum.

Redb said  | March 11th 2008 @ 4:39pm | Report comment

Millster,

Re basketball - I’m afraid I’m biased, my daughter has played at state level thus i’ve seen a lot of games of basketball over the years and understand the ebb and flow of the game pretty well. Basketball’s got plenty fo merit. Tactics come in the form of substitions and match-ups, not unlike AFL.

Re tactics in AFL, well if it was the free for all that non believers beleieve it to be, then why has the AFL got a much larger match day coaching panel than most other sports (except Gridiron). i remember reading an article about Bellamy and another well known NRL coach spending some time in the AFL’s coaching box , they couldn’t beleive the amount of moves in a single game.

AFL hasn’t gone too far down the formation stuff like soccer, 4,3,3 5,2,3 ,etc but it does deploy flooding tactics and extra men in defense stuff (unfortunately). I guess the biggest tactic is man on man matchups, where coaches try and find a mismatch in height, skill,etc In AFL,l you have six lines of 3 players in each line and a centre group (ruck, rover, on-baller). Each line has its own formation and it has to match up against the opponent. Many teams fall down at centre half forward for instance and need to bolster that line.

I think its quite false to assume AFL has no tactics due to high scoring, its all relative to the scoring ability of the opposing team, the coach tweaks his matchups to gain an advantage or overcome a problem throughout the whole game from start to finish.

cheers
Redb

Al said  | March 11th 2008 @ 5:03pm | Report comment

Michael C,

Such a world cup made up of local players already exists. Its called the Rugby League World Cup.

I dont know about the teams for this years edition but in previous years the Lebanon team was made up of players almost exclusively from the Canterbury-Bankstown area of Sydney, the Russian team was captained by a Roosters player (with a Russian grandmother) who’d never been to Russia as was the Irish team.

The Lebanon team were able to compete at the 2000 RLWC when a domestic competition in that country wasn’t established until 2002.

Michael C said  | March 11th 2008 @ 5:09pm | Report comment

Al -

and I think I’ve stated before - good luck in running the contest, enjoy it for what it is - but - be very careful about just how it’s marketed. I think there is a delicate but very, very important distinction between presenting something as a ‘World Cup as against an ‘International Cup’ - the latter is not claiming to be a worlds best anything either explicitly or by comparable usage of the term in a broader more recogniseable sense - i.e. FIFA, ICC, RFU.

cheers.

Millster said  | March 11th 2008 @ 5:37pm | Report comment

MC - my apologies for thinking you were a Perthite (a pity you’re not though as I’m more often in WA than VIC). Offer of beer remains though… I’ll buy it for you when France play Australia on a balmy Friday night at the ‘G circa 2018. Round of 16 perhaps, with France going on to take the crown… I’ll even promise to come with you to see the Roos play whoever in AFL the next day (though I suspect they will have well and truly relocated by then and we’ll be looking for the cheapest way to get to Alice Springs or Kalgoorlie where they will surely be based).

Some of your descriptions of the use of on-ballers reminds me of the dilemmas in use of wing-backs in football. A VERY polarising issue in my sport. eg Roberto Carlos (Brazil) iis a legend to some, and a waste of space to others. Notionally a left-back, he rarely is found on the defensive side of the half-way line, and actually plays a role far more like Beckham’s with strongest assets being crossing into the box and wicked set-piece kicks. To a purist defender like me that’s just heresy. Only reason I like him is that his mistake caused the corner that led to my beloved France’s first goal in their ‘98 World Cup Final triumph.

More broadly, to both you and RedB, apologies if the cut and thrust of this forum makes me oversimplify any game. We all tend to do it in the heat of the argument, and I think we all know that each game - yes even basketball - has its own tactical merit.

Midfielder said  | March 11th 2008 @ 6:34pm | Report comment

Because it the Asian Champions league ………………not my clubs neither ……………..but for that night I am going for MV.

Does not mean I support the Mariners less, ………………just ………………..Aussie first.

John Ryan said  | March 11th 2008 @ 7:18pm | Report comment

Michael C,some where you mentioned me in regards to Mahatmacoat and 6pr You were the one having a go at Rugby League footy show over said gent.
All I was showing was that AFL fans are just as stupid,I,m sorry I regard both Footy shows as utter rubbish,some what the same as I look upon AFL,and I was raised on AFL through school ect.
Cross country basketball is a good name for it

Michael C said  | March 11th 2008 @ 9:01pm | Report comment

Al -

(shhhh, ……{read in hushed tones}, yes, yes, I realise your tone of ‘disdain’ for the affore mentioned pseudo ‘world event’, however, I’ve mentioned the ‘war’ earlier, but, I think I got away with it, and am keen to avoid another potential confrontation - - but, I agree entirely with your conviction on the issue!!!)

Redb said  | March 12th 2008 @ 9:58am | Report comment

Martin Buchan,

I feel sorry for you, its your loss. Australian football is a great game if you bother to try and understand it, so take of those soccer sunnies and give it a go.

cheers
Redb

Midfielder said  | March 12th 2008 @ 10:57am | Report comment

Martin

You posed an interesting question about if the media was changed for say five years how far would football grow and how far would the other codes fall.

This I think is the real war being waged by AFL, lost of media exposure in time means lost of revenue.

It will never happen mind you …..but it is an interesting question.

Midfielder said  | March 12th 2008 @ 12:27pm | Report comment

Redb

It was not wishful thinking as I said it would never happen.

However if you believe that football has over the years not been given a hard time by the media in general, I assume you must belong to the flat earth society, …………….no use getting into an arguement about it as you hold your views and nothing I can do will change them.

But you loose all credibility if you insist that 1) the media had over the years been harsh or ignored football remember the famous Ch 7 email, 2) if the media was so unimportant as you imply why; is the AFL so keen on signing media deals and often with special be nice to AFL clauses, 3) AFL does not need the 780 million or the seen on TV to get the spondsorship deals…………………..sorry does not work.

Agree your crowds, ………………but your crowd income is not the biggest income earner you have, its media and spondsors using your exposure on the media to have coverage.

Michael C said  | March 12th 2008 @ 1:49pm | Report comment

Oh dear, Martin, oh dear……

“aussie rules committie celebrate the football international side gettin booted out of world cup in 2001 three cheers for the fair go . “
Okay, so, you’re believing as ‘official’ policy a tongue in cheek response by a single member of the COMMISSION to a silly question. At any rate though – sports is a business – the ‘players’ in the business of sports are in competition. That’s a given. Any other belief is delusional. Otherwise, the FFA/Soccer Australia would have stood side by side with the AFL on drugs in sport – because, when the AFL was resisting signing on to WADA, well, the FFA/SA was aligned with FIFA who themselves were NOT signed on to WADA and would not do so for another 18 months thereafter. If it was only about ‘SPORT’, then the FFA/SA would have lent it’s ‘weight’ to the AFL. Alas, NO, because, it was UNWILLING to deflect the negative attention (including from the supposed ‘pet’ media outlets, Channel 7 and the Herald Sun have been 2 of the worst offenders). So – thankyou very, very much the gutless soccer industry in this country to NOT come out and state clearly that as part of being ‘aligned’ with FIFA meant that they were NOT WADA compliant – and that when FIFA signed up, eventually, in late 2006 – that it was with ‘strings’ attached.

“nill nill some of the best drama unfolds in these games some of the worst i would also admit. it goes for all sports. good the bad and the ugly. no goals in some quarters of aussie rules here, a reference to quick goal gratification,no doubt another major overhaul of the rules required”
What are you on about? Perhaps you ability to gained zero goal, drawn game gratification is baking your brain. Yes – there was a reference – however, your reference leaves it unclear what your point is.

“yet again from the game that never was and never will succeed on the world stage as it begins to struggle on its home soil as more and more turn to FOOTBALL”
Actually, please present some statistics to illustrate that AFL/footy is ‘struggling’ on home soil?? Record revenue, profit, 15 of 16 clubs profitable, record crowds (WITHOUT any extra teams or games per round), Record club memberships etc. Yep, such a struggle as that is, I wonder how they manage.

“Dont follow the A league was said,what ,your countrys producing some great footballers at this time and moment .so stop comparing it with the best league on the planet ie the epl look at the achivements of sydney fc ,they came close to stopping the asian champions urawa reds they also defeated the african champions in the football world club cup”
Hmm, I think this is directed at ‘true soccer fans’, because, they are the folk who will be comparing the HAL to other leagues – and, seemingly are the folk NOT turning up in large numbers, because, SFC in particular SHOULD be outstripping all other clubs for crowds – being the only team in the being the biggest city in the biggest soccer state. Don’t blame anybody else. Remember, AFL myopic Melbourne has the most profitable and most supported club. Gee – we’re bad people down here…..

“ , another thing if you were to remove the media machine abehind aussie rules it would eventually disappear into the bush . it always trys to aviod football as much as it can as you may have witnessed tonight with there being no mention on the news and so called sports sections of footballs asian champions league all these so called sports programs turn into another aussie rules show”
Don’t forget, soccer, HAL, chose to AVOID the NRL and AFL by playing over summer – as did Basketball in this country. It was a strategic ‘retreat’ to ‘no mans land’. A game that draws about 60-70K a week around the country including New Zealand is NOT deserved of anywhere near the same media coverage as the NRL does in Sydney or the AFL in Melb, Perth and Adelaide. Regarding TV – well, most of that emanates out of Sydney now anyway – so don’t blame the AFL or Melb media mafia – they got deposed years ago, back when World of Sports was cancelled out of Dorcas St South Melbourne.

“ . so get off the grass the world cup is coming 2018”
Certainly, the World Cup is coming in 2010, and 2014, and 2018 will be in Europe – you’ve given me no reason NOT to believe that the WC will be in Europe in 2018. And provide no global logic otherwise, let alone that Australia will see anything of the WC at least until the second hosting by Asia that at the earliest would be 2034, if not 2038…….so, don’t hold your breath.

“ aussie rules rest in peace ,fair go and all that to you . let your fears be retaliation,smell the fear, and go the dons thats aberdeen football club to you”
I think this says it all. If you like Aberdeen so much…..well,…..I suspect Aberdeen awaits you. I do believe you’ve been smelling a bit of fearlike substance yourself, and perhaps too much of it. It might be time to take up chewing gum.

“, stand free where ever you maybe for we are the famous aberdeen ,sing along you know you want to. you aussies dont deserve football “
Well, apparently we ‘don’t deserve’ ‘football’ - - funny, given that WE Aussies have thus far sustained 4 successful codes of ‘football’ – it seems to me we are the worlds ‘cradle’ of the game at present – we are the ‘melting pot’ of football – the shining beacon of multi-code understanding etc. But, you seem annoyed that what I presume you believe to be the ‘worlds greatest game’ is not given an armchair ride in the Australian market…..does that suggest that in a competitive market that it requires ‘help’?

“. dont know why i wasted this space on you. for we are aberdeen fc we are the mighty dandy dons aberdeen fc pittodrie we stand free aberdeen fc . come on sing along. your not singing any more, your not singing anymore.”

Hate to burst your bubble, I never was singing – not even humming,
By the way – do you actually ‘LIVE’ in Australia? Or are you just ‘existing’ and ‘enduring’. I feel sorry for you. I respect your obvious passion and emotion, however, you’ve not provided much substance. I’d like to think that a few more posters on theROAR could do that.

The thing that really surprises me:

I’ve asserted that:

Europe, hosted 2006 WC
Africa get 2010
Sth America 2014.
Rules 2018 onwards, a confed CAN’T host that has hosted one of previous 2.
Therefore, Europe, best regularity going forward is every 12 years.
England only hosted once back in the 60s.
Why do we believe that Europe would NOT ensure hosting in 2018 by Europe???
And then, after that 2030, 2042, 2054 etc etc.
Asia – sure as heck that China is the golden goose that FIFA want’s to cook. China for 2022, that will be 14 years after the Olympics this year – I’m certain the ONLY way that Europe WILL NOT get the WC in 2018 would be if China put their hand up. And no way would FIFA want Australia to host it and thus consign China to at least a 12 year wait before they could host it.

There’s just NO WAY.

Millster said  | March 12th 2008 @ 2:38pm | Report comment

MC - well written You might see that bloke as one of ‘us crowd’ but trust me, he’s with the strange kids out the back…

I tend to agree with your 12 year cycle which I think from now on will go:

- Europe
- Americas (Nth or South)
- Other (alternating Africa and Asia)
I also agree that we at best are second in line to China.

But as previously written I don’t think thats an excuse not to properly explore and prepare and submit a bid. Just as in the Olympics, it may well be a prerequisite to winning that a country has tried before. At the very least it allows 2 ‘generations’ worth of effort to devote themselves to the solving complex issues, logistics and infrastructure.

Michael C said  | March 12th 2008 @ 3:10pm | Report comment

Redb -

Helps that the NFL don’t really start until their pre-season in August. So - no issue there. I have zero idea about the baseball or basketball seasons…however, I somehow doubt that any confliction of venue would have applied.

I do just wonder what length of binding contract the AFL and MCC have regarding the MCG. Obviously, we saw the AFL have to ‘fix’ the draw for several seasons - artificially REDUCING crowds - by playing games at the Telstra Dome that were ideally suited for the MCG and vice versa - just to nudge the MCC towards relenting around finals. The MCC know where the bread is buttered - and, FIFA would be doing well to be able to force a break in that contractual arrangement.

Might require an act of parliament.

Then it’d all just be one big political football……

Michael C said  | March 12th 2008 @ 4:25pm | Report comment

Towser -

Yep, FIFA, the only organisation that makes the Academy of Motion Pictures look legitamate.

re the rest directed at redb -

on my behalf, I’d accept in good grace so long as there’s not a ‘bulldozer’ used to achieve a ’solution’.

The AFL can not give up 2 winter months - simple as that. IIt can not be finished by end of May, can not NOT start before September, and can NOT hibernate over June AND July. That’s the starting point in any negotiation.

Either, ground sharing is possible or new venues built/upgraded for the AFL as compensation. Perhaps AFL retains Telstra Dome and Govt actually upgrades a Princes Park or the like to a 40K capacity to carry extra games in lieu of the MCG being ‘vacacted’…….something like that that would deliver the AFL an extra quality venue in Melb, or, perhaps a means to gain Govt funding to upgrade Carara and Blacktown to 25K AFL venues and thus allow the AFL more readily to step back from venues in QLD and NSW. After all, it may be cheaper to use existing ‘large’ venues, and ‘build’ a few boutique AFL venues. The NRL shouldn’t have too great concerns - they have mostly their ’suburban’ and ‘regional’ venues that cater just fine for their crowds - and perhaps 1 or 2 might be deserved of a slight upgrade if SFS, and Olympic stadium and Suncorp are all unavailable.

That could be an alternate to or in conjunction with pure cash compensation - - and that could be win-win, the AFL come out with their slice of the pie - so to speak. The reality is - at present - there is NO evident reason to go hell for leather building 40-60K rectangular venues dotted all over the country. None of those codes show the regular support deserved of such for ‘club’ competitions - such that existing larger venues are sufficient. That’s why, freeing up the existing larger venues - in the main, from the AFL during winter - might be best handled via this method. Is it entirely silly???

But - if the AFL and for that measure, the NRL, were white anted by Fed Govt and FFA, then there’d be hell to pay - there WOULD then be a principle involved - one of fairness that if NOT adhered to in a reasonable sense would result most likely in if not open warfare, at least a guerilla warfare!!

Towser said  | March 12th 2008 @ 4:34pm | Report comment

Michael C
It sounds like you will accept the umpires decisions on your terms.
Not exactly good grace.
Fortunately for the sake of good sense and harmony amongst Australians you are not involved in the negotiations.

Michael C said  | March 12th 2008 @ 4:42pm | Report comment

Towser -

well, if the umpire arbitrates on the basis of fair and reasonable negotiations - then obviously, good grace is to accept a fair and reasonable and balanced resolution - i.e. to resolve the issue on behalf of, and considering the needs of, both/all parties. That means, that each party would hope that the majority or most important of their ‘needs’ are met. Ideally then, each party can sign off knowing that their terms have been considered fairly.

As I said, if a bulldozer is brought in - that might be in the form of Govt legislation to FORCE, or Govt attempting to get it’s way via threats of withheld funding etc and playing favourites - well, in a competitive environment - that is not acceptable - at least without due compensation.

What I’ve suggested is a form of compensation other than purely dollars - i.e. venue upgrades OUTSIDE of the WC venues so as to free up the largest existing venues to be WC venues rather than building new ‘larger’ venues that we might envisage - on the back of the Sydney Olympic Stadium - to run the risk that said venues might be white elephants. The Sydney Olympic Stadium in the hands of the NRL club competition is an example NOT of ‘build it and they will come’.

Michael C said  | March 12th 2008 @ 5:25pm | Report comment

Millster -

funny you mention that sort of regional venue scenario.

There has already been a suggestion by Kevin Sheedy that a full round of AFL should one day be played overseas - and, venues pending, developing AFL areas such as US/Canada, Nrth Europe/Scandanavia, UK, Sth and central Europe, Asia, Africa etc could all benefit greatly from that exposure, especially as junior competitions either kick off or are being consolidated.

However,
back in the 1950s there was a round with games in I think Albury, Yallorn, Benalla etc.

I wouldn’t mind seeing such a round done again - at least once. However, over a 5 or 6 week period, that’s a big ask.

But - let’s say Princes Park get’s revamped to 40K, and Kardinia Park in Geelong to 40K. FIFA gets MCG and Telstra Dome (sooner the better for FIFA, as if not 2018, then AFL will OWN this venue). And then, Melbourne is sort. I’m not sure about plans or not to be able to expand the new rectangular venue to 40K min or not?

The AFL could ensure that fixtures didn’t involve too many likely really high drawing games for those weeks.

Brisbane - well, if the GAbba is required or not - that’s another question, but, it’d be a reasonable reason to upgrade CArarra to free up the Gabba if the Gabba were at the time deemed appropriate.
Sydney - again, with all the Rectangle venues available and perhaps upgradeable in Sydney and NSW - the SCG might NOT be required, and the AFL and NRL could probably quite easily NOT have a conflict for the Olympic Stadium.
Perth - at this stage only Subiaco is the right capacity. A bit of water to go under the bridge over there. Presently, only the AFL clubs have a compelling case for a 60K venue. And only Western Force have a compelling arguement for a largish rectangle venue.
Adelaide - presently only AAMI stadium is over 40K.

Both Adelaide and Perth would be the main problems. The REctangle codes DO NOT offer a sufficient justificiation for a 40K permanent venue - so, I’d foresee a minor upgrade plus temporary stands. That way, the AFL venues at Subi and AAMI could still carry their workload - as, in those cities - with the membership and attendance of the clubs - you really can’t relocate their games at any time.

Millster said  | March 12th 2008 @ 5:45pm | Report comment

MC - Sheedy’s idea reminds me of the recent talk of ‘Round 39′ in the English Premier League which was met with howls of derision both in England and world-wide. Interesting idea but there are many problems with taking any domestic competition that far away from its home.

Incidentally, IF (and again I stress I don’t think it will be the case) concurrent competitions are the answer then yes I totally agree with your solution, both as an immediate fix and as a longer-term provider of good infrastructure for the betterment of all sports. Its a much better solution than building brand new rectangular pitches everywhere without a decent sustainable business plan for their proper utilisation beyond that one event.

I’ll relay a left field idea from a colleague here. Given the acceptability and regularity of rules experiments and alterations in AFL, why don’t we play a few years of NAB Cup on rectangular pitches? By the time 2018, 2030, etc comes around it will have been embraced fair and square (excuse the pun) throughout your code and we’ll all be happily building and sharing fields of roughly the same dimensions. We can make the AFL ball a few kilos heavier while we’re at it so that it can’t be kicked from one end to the other of the ‘revised’ field too quickly. Hehe….

Marc in Johannesburg said  | March 12th 2008 @ 7:26pm | Report comment

Thanks Midfielder

Can you look into your crystal ball and predict AFL’s growth in South Africa?

RedB is suggesting that it can grow from 8,000 (AFL propaganda and questionable) to 4 million participants by 2018. I make that a growth rate of more than 85% per annum. Do you think that a cashed-up football and rugby union will allow it? Do you think a country that despises (maybe that’s a bit harsh, dislikes is a better word) most things Australian and especially anything that looks or smells like colonialism will welcome this intruder?

Michael C said  | March 12th 2008 @ 8:49pm | Report comment

Marc in Jo’berg.

Sth Africa is interesting. The AFL did not go marching in their, however, a single ‘commissioner’ [Colin Carter] has developed it as a bit of a personal mission. Before the AFL was willing to invest anything fiscal - Tattersalls had been funding activities and now Costa Logistics I think it is. The AFL is now putting in all of a ‘massive’ (NOT) AUD$400K. Hardly a large outlay.

The simple fact is that there have been positive signs, govt support in places, sponsorship in places, participation in places etc etc - enough to be able to forecast a sustainable ‘niche’, i.e. like Rugby League in England, a couple of cities or a couple of provinces will do - not to be ‘converted’ en mass - but, given the availability of cricket ovals - and developing partnerships with Cricket and Govt - - - who knows.

10% of population……personally, I think along the lines of Tasmania. About 30K registerd footy players. If the AFL could within 10 years present 30-40K participants/players in Sth Africa - I reckon that’d be brilliant. With that number, you could easily see 5-10 draftable kids a year.

Btw guys -

I’ve posted a new article on ‘where the first AFL player to NOT learn their footy first in Australia’ will come from. Everyone suggests Sth Africa now. There’s one particular kid who learned his footy from age 13 in Vancouver who is up in QLD this year, age 18, 192 cms, and determined to make it.

This is the biggest question - how much impetus does the AFL (aust footy) get in ‘international’ areas if and when a true native ‘makes it’. Will that give the code - because, remember, it IS pretty unique - enough of a kick along to ‘take off’ (enough).

It’s a curious thing to watch - no one has seriously tried to ‘export’ the game before - and, certainly, enough immigrants to the Aust Footy states have ‘fallen in love’ with it over the years. I’m pragmatic enough though, it needs large ovals - they ain’t everywhere. Already, in many places they play regular ‘club’ games as 9-16 aside type contests.

As with Redb -

I agree, I don’t dispise or resent soccer - - but, really, it’s big enough, it’s already the biggest. I don’t want the world to be ‘all the same’. it takes some of the interest out of it. It’d be a damn shame if we ’strangled’ our own unique take on football just so as to be just like everybody else……….”You are all individuals”….”Yes, we are all individuals”……….”I’m not”……that’s us, tacked on the end, that’s Australia with footy.

Marc in Johannesburg said  | March 12th 2008 @ 9:22pm | Report comment

Midfielder - EXACTLY!!!

AFL will never be anything is this country! Football is king, then rugby union. Kaizer Chiefs and Orlando Pirates make Collingwood look like a suburb of Melbourne.

Marc in Johannesburg said  | March 12th 2008 @ 9:36pm | Report comment

Sorry RedB - I don’t know

Midfielder said  | March 12th 2008 @ 9:49pm | Report comment

Melbourne won 2 nill with a mid week crowd of 23 656 sorry about the crowd MV played a Korean side so about 30 million only.

Adelaide 1 nill up at half time

Michael C said  | March 12th 2008 @ 10:37pm | Report comment

Hmmm, 23K, they’d be happy with it, …, but…..they’d have hoped for more.

But - in reality, mid week.

Anyway,

AFL in Sth Africa is an acadmey of sport …. sport, in the NW Province. The Govt is onside there and the cricket assoc is in partnership. That’s the main base.
There’s initial moves into 3 other provinces. Just very early days.

Importantly - it’s NOT really marching is as a ‘white/anglo’ game. The key ‘ambassadors’ thus far are the indigenous youth teams. And, they have many similar issues as the local South African blacks - it’s a great ‘cultural’ exchange firstly, and a single code ‘expansion’ second.

The program back in say 2004/05 was running off grants from Tattersalls Australia, the Sth Af lotteries and I think the smallest of those grants was the AFL grant of - actually, was it only R100K?? Stuff all really. The fact the AFL are no putting in AUD$400K shows they are taking notice - and 4 clubs each have a ‘province’ to ‘promote’ in.

In places they’re trying to use it as a means of getting the whites and blacks to play together.

The Answer said  | March 12th 2008 @ 10:43pm | Report comment

I love the way AFL fans claim they don’t care that the game isn’t played anywhere else, but then jump up and down and claim they are expanding when 14 South Africans kids get told they’ll be fed if they take a photo holding an AFL photo.

And look! A few Aussies in Scotland play the game, let’s book Murrayfield!

I must say though for a bunch of people who claim not to care one jot about Rugby League, they certainly have an incredible knowledge about the goings on of the game. Can’t help themselves I guess.

Marc in Johannesburg said  | March 12th 2008 @ 10:56pm | Report comment

True Al

This is a big generalisation, but the white SA’s of British, Scotish, German, Italian, Greek etc heritage follow football in Europe; but not the local Premier Soccer League.

The white SA’s of Afrikaaner origin are passionate about rugby - its sort of a Afrikaaner nationalism thing.

Although its not quite as hard and fast as it used to be - the Springboks certainly united the country in 1995 in winning the Rugby WC and again last year; Bafana Bafana united the country in winning the 1996 African Cup of Nations.

Support for the Football WC will be across the board, except for some narrow-minded Afrikaaners who hate football because its loved by blacks.

The Answer said  | March 12th 2008 @ 11:21pm | Report comment

And I thought I’d have to wait until the morning to hear it..ha ha ha….

I follow your logic and such will add all the various countries that play rugby league at an amateur level and look forward to them reaching the Rugby league World Cup one day.

One question, you don’t like sport becoming a business and don’t like players chasing the dollars, but are happy to see AFL pinch gaelic footballers? Is that becuase it suits you?

Just want to know if you actual have a rational point or if it is merely greed and self interest dressed up with pseudo-economics.

Ben of Phnom Penh said  | March 13th 2008 @ 2:57am | Report comment

Hmm, have lost the thread of this debate however am impressed that all sides have managed to maintain a decree of intellectual decorum and have, by and large. debated the merits of the argument. Personally I do not see, at this stage, any reason as to why both codes cannot succeed at a higher level both at the participatory and the spectator level. Yesterday I heard on the BBC that 25% of Australian kids are obese as opposed to 11% in the late 80’s and the % in adults is far worse. The challenge is to get these kids playing sports and coming to the game as supporters rather than eating burgers and playing games online; there is much work to do from both sides.

Marc in J’Bourg, I love your commitment and passion however unlike many of my compatriots I have actually watched a number of Premier Soccer League matches (admittedly on S-Sports whilst in Ethiopia) and the crowd were rather thin. Orlando and Ajax had a few at the ground however Mamelodi, Moroka and the Black Leopards had very few attending for whatever reason. I’m hoping that the WC rectifies the situation as I love the spectacle that is the PSL and believe that better facilities, pitches, access (and defense!) will result in the PSL taking the step forward that it has for so long promised to do. This move forwards, especially in the coaching arena, will hopefully have the PSL sides seriously challenging on the continent. I guess is some regards this is what many are hoping a successful 2018 bid would do for football in Australia.

I hope Aussie Rules does make inroads into South Africa for the same reason I support sport in general; there are more kids without opportunities to play sport than there are those with the ability to cultivate their talents. We are rather spoilt as Australians as we have a range of sporting opportunities and can determine what we are good at, or like, and move into that sporting arena. Not everyone is in the same boat and the per capita sporting investment in much of Africa could always do with a little help, no matter from which direction that assistance hails from.

Michael C said  | March 13th 2008 @ 9:37am | Report comment

The Answer –

I didn’t say I was HAPPY with it.

But, given that the GAA runs Gaelic Footy as an amateur sport, and yet they often have nicely attended matches – then, how can the GAA demand that all the talent athletes commit to the amateur sport when they have the chance to have a crack at earning a decent quid in pro-sports. And, if not AFL, then, the Poms and the world of soccer is right on the door step.

So – I’m satisfied that the AFL isn’t raping and pillaging, mainly because for the player to contemplate coming to the other side of the world, and for AFL clubs to contemplate the expense of the exercise and using a rookie position to develop an Irish lad – well, non of that is done on an overnight whim.

Happy, for now I guess I am at least comfortable with it. And in the past the Irish lads have been able to represent their homeland in the International Rules games should they wish.

Bob –

Where you from???

Ben of Phnom Penh –

Exactly –

A. not all kids have the breadth of opportunities
B. too many kids NOT involved in sports/activities
C. in England they run AussieRules in Schools – which is going alright, because, the kids have already worked out whether they’re into soccer or rugby or whatever, so, they have established ‘hierarchies’ around that. Footy in the schools is something new, that allows everyone to start from a relatively level playing field.
In Scotland, there’s programs running with what one might term disenfranchised kids. Again though, largely because the dominant games and the like develop their dominating ‘culture’ and social hierarchy. Too many kids who miss that boat are left behind.
So – something new and different can be a useful tool.

And in all likelihood, should it work well, then probably Rugby in England would benefit…..just as in NZ aspiring Rugby players are using Aust Footy in the off-season to improve fitness and ball handling etc – maybe the Australian Rugby elitists will start getting thumped by Poms and Kiwis because they adopted Aust Footy for x-training more so than the myopic Rugby heads…..and yet for years we’ve seen the quality of players out of a city like Wagga where they play a bit of everything…….again, Wagga, the culture heart of Australia!!

Midfielder said  | March 13th 2008 @ 9:55am | Report comment

Redb & Marc

Marc first

Thanks for the local update pertaining to the backing of various sports.

Redb

You seem to want me to accept the AFL is the main sport in Australia, I have already said many times I agree, crowd wise, TV deal wise, Income wise, second in TV ratings to the NRL (if you count regional centers), by far the most media. What else can I say.

To your point on TV in Asian, …………….they those Asians I mean do take their sport seriously, and watch in large numbers. Their football code of choice is well football.

So the Asian audience for Australian teams playing in the Asian Champions League is quite large, some say very large.

My only point is based on the Asian connection to football, and in this read all the things that the AFL provide, like a common place to meet and chat off the record, enjoy life maybe share a drink and so on, spondsors wishing Asian exposure are attracted to the ACL, in no way different to spondsors of the AFL within Australia. Further based on past experience these spondsors pay quite well so it should be good for the A-League.

Not quite sure what you mean about Chelsea, however it is not uncommon for most people in Asia, Australia, USA ……………France, Holland, Spain etc to have a EPL team they follow as well as theire own. Me I follow Man U, Liverpool & Barca, so it not such a big deal. Lima Beans lost me.

As I said in an earlier post I wish you well in SA, and in the same position (as I said) I would do as you are try and expand AFL overseas. If I were running the show it would have been NZ rather than SA but I am sure the AFL has done its homework and is spending its money wisely.

However even you would I presume acknowldge at present in both Asia & SA, the AFL is a fair,/ long way behind football.

Redb said  | March 13th 2008 @ 11:08am | Report comment

Midfielder,

We’ve gotten a fair bit off topic. I was using Chelsea as an analogy of the passion for the local club game over an international. The international s not everything in sport, in fact when you look at our rep teams, we curerntly have two versions fo the Socceroos running around , the Best and the Best of the A League. I like club comps because you get to keep your best players. - your a marketing man, Esendon was able to keep James Hird for ten years - the marketing benefit is huge, the kids have his number on their backs,etc. Anyway off topic.

As for the AFL’s expansion beyond Australia, well its going to take time, we are a small country and whilst our expats have grown the game in the last ten years as the world has opened up, we have seen some small progress. It will never be as big as soccer, but that it itself does not make soccer a better game to watch or play.

For the record, the AFL is doing more in NZ than South Africa. But in reallty , if your an All black supporter why would follow an Aussie Rules team? - Kiwis are very parochial and good luck to them - the All blacks have been a fine sporting team over a long period of time with a proud tradition - everyone wants to beat them.

cheers
Redb

Michael C said  | March 13th 2008 @ 7:01pm | Report comment

Midfielder -

why Sth Af.

Good exchange rate.

And a large disengaged population.

cricket ovals

and certain things happened that effectively created a window of opportunity that the AFL would’ve been foolish NOT to have given it a go.

The soccer world cup in some respects is niether here nor there - as strange as that sounds.

As far as ‘non AFL supported’ ground work, more has been done prior to Sth Af in places like the UK, Denmark, US, Canada etc, PNG, NZ…..

However, Sth Africa provides the best value for money in the short term. Simple as that (I reckon).

Midfielder said  | March 13th 2008 @ 8:55pm | Report comment

MC

Please explain

and certain things happened that effectively created a window of opportunity that the AFL would’ve been foolish NOT to have given it a go.

Redb said  | March 13th 2008 @ 9:46pm | Report comment

Midfielder,

cheers mate. As for sth Africa, i think as Michael C explains above, there is an opportunity to work with some ofthe poorest provinces in Sth Africa and introduce sport as a means of getting ahead in life. That no one else has bothered is the opportunity for the AFL.

No guarantees it will work though.

cheers
Redb

Koala Bear said  | March 14th 2008 @ 11:35am | Report comment

bob said | Yesterday

just one question from up here in the world… what’s AFL?

Bob,
AFL, means (Australian Football League). But last season they went through a name change and it is now to be known as AFTL (Australian Foot-Thing League). To align its name with its TV media AFTL promotional ad campaign, that ran every Saturday before the match of the day. All of this was approved and signed off by the CEO Andrew Demetriou, as a logical step forward; due to the fact that the game they play is not a ball, but a “Thing” as the TV ad refers to it.. (as all balls are round)

~~~~~~
KB

Koala Bear said  | March 14th 2008 @ 5:21pm | Report comment

Michael C said | Today

btw - congrats on the confirmation of your new AFL AFTL team. You’re an expectant dad!!!!

Comrade,
May I reciprocate with your 3 yr old child (Melb Vic FC) with a magnificent performance by the Lards on Wed. night at the TD. And It was great to see them off to a great start in the ACL… However, for the time being my club Sydney FC have now gone into hibernation. So my attention is now focused on the Mighty Sydney Newtown Bloods FTC - as those mongrel tankers (Carlton FTC) have been exposed, as for what they really are, just a bunch of cheating neoconservative lying cheats - so says Tony Liberatore asst coach staff..!!!

And as for those ungrateful Nab Cup Winners St Kilda.. Told by their coach, not to show any jubilation for winning the Nab Cup; I am vigorously now, pursing a better deal for them with Sydney FC, who would not treat them with such disdain

btw thanks for those kind words of welcome.

~~~~~~
KB

Redb said  | March 17th 2008 @ 9:53am | Report comment

Midfielder,

I think the difference between the crowds and level of interest in the media is not a true reflection of Melbourne media coverage more broadly. Melb Victory get pretty good coverage compared to the Melb Tigers. And whilst the crowd was susbstantially bigger for the Victory game it was was against an unknown opponent and mostly Victory members attended. It is a final, but the level of awareness of the ACL is still fairly small. When Victory won the A League season 2007 it got 55,000 and heaps of press coverage.

The basketball game had the Melb v Sydney spice and in fact Melb got beaten in game four and still gave it good press coverage. I suspect the basketballs crowd was severally restricted due to the venue, another reflection of basketball’s declining status as a mainstream sport in OZ. it was however a national final.

War you say…well i think your right. I had a look at an article by Les Murray on the TWG site and even though he is suggesting it is a phoney war between the codes, I think is comemtns further down the article reflect his true position about the future, in his eyes at least, of AFL and NRL. I natually don’t share his pessimism with regard to AFL.

cheers
Redb

Midfielder said  | March 17th 2008 @ 10:44am | Report comment

MC

My post was in responce the over all topic of the thread “Soccer World Cup bugger off”.

I posted not my throughts but those of a Melbourne Victory football supporter on a MV fans forum, I thought he made some very interestings comments. Like to qoute Indio ……..

………..”Channel TEN is doing what any reasonable private company should do … looking after it’s investment and profit margins … They have made a huge investment on Foody … they have to promote and enhance their returns”…

…….”We are dreaming, expecting coverage from channel 10 and 7 … ruthless commercial operators, whose self-interest over rides the promotion of achievements from National Sport codes, not financially connected to them “….

………..Prehaps for me the Indio statement of ……………………”Make no bones about it … we are at war … there will be no quarte given … they are threaten … the desperation to expand the AFL into Gold Coast and West Sydney … regardless of cost and or merit … is a clear sign of hostilities … they are wounded … they know that once we push through the next conscience barrier in oz sports psyche there is no turning back”

MC up until this post I did not fully realise the AFL was at war with the other codes. I now realise after this post it is, further in Melbourne football fans realise it. The acceptance by Indio that football can expect little to nothing from traditional media but get on with it live with it….. but fight on regardless.

As I said this is a Melbourne boy, …………his point about the “next conscience barrier” opened my eyes to just how far football had come in three or four short years in acceptance, but by no means at the top level.

So as I said MC I found this raw emotive response from a melbourne fan, I found interesting and wondered would the world cup bring break through to that “next conscience barrier” and if that in itself would be something the AFL might not want to happen. The side issue I have is Indio seems to assume its football not the NRL that AFL is worried about and i find that a bit hard to believe.

Michael C said  | March 17th 2008 @ 11:08am | Report comment

Midfielder -

I realise you were ‘forwarding’ the comments.

My main thing is that I’ve heard a bit over the last few years - especially since we’ve got ourselves our 24 hour talk radio sports station in SEN - I’ve heard people complain about all the negative stories at times - and the main response - “We’re not here to be a publicity tool”.

However, now that they are signed on with the AFL as a ‘Broadcast partner’, will we see a change? So far - seemingly not.

The FTA networks are at war - that is not in question. I presume.

They have available to them certain tools of warfare.

That shoud come as no surprise. And amongst the primary weapons of warfare are (apart from Surprise, soft cushions and cumfy chairs) TV content especially SPORT. TV news is superficial. A 30 min broadcast including ads. Ultra superficial.

Sports Tonight on TEN. Isn’t too bad. We still had to put up with the bozo (Tim Webster) a few years back stating “Nathan Buckley has resigned”, when he had actually “re-signed”.

However - I again point out how often Channel 7 FAILS to fit the portrayal as in the comments regarding TEN.

Sunday morning on Channel 7 - they show video footage of all the NRL games from the previous day/evening, and, ONLY show the highlights of the Swans game from the Sat night AFL offering - irrespective of the quality or teams in the other game.

A supposed NATIONAL show, based in Sydney - displaying Sydney centric tendancies. That’s what we have to put up with. For that, I find it a bit rich John Ryan in Perth complaining about poor NRL coverage….he’s in a state with NO NRL team. A state with 2 AFL clubs that have a combined membership of almost 100K, and the best supported super 14 Australian Club. And he want’s them bumped off the sports sections for NRL coverage…….

People have to be realistic here.

——-

Some people praised Lowy at the time for securing the 7 year Foxtel deal. It provided financial certainty.

It also hid away the HAL and more importantly the Socceroos. It ensures that this wonderful ‘Asian’ adventure is LOST on most of the Australian public. As Redb says though, soccer more than any other code can afford to be patient, because, it is the child of a global behemoth.

If that’s the message sent out by the FFA - then, don’t blame the FTA networks for turning their noses up to it. As said - it is an entirely PAY TV product.

THe AFL is very interesting because it is split between 2 of the 3 FTA networks PLUS Pay Tv.

Will we one day see the AFL providing a guaranteed Saturday night slot with 2 games - each including AT LEAST one of the 2 QLD teams and one with at least 2 of the NSW teams. They then can sell that slot - the Saturday night slot to perhaps a Channel 10 who broadcast one game into NSW, the other into QLD, either into the rest of the country?

I reckon the AFL are heading towards a situation of potentially engaging all 3 FTAs with a different day each.

It becomes a tailored offering.

Back to soccer though - the thing out of all this is, get SBS on side first. If SBS (soccer broadcasting network) can’t give the HAL coverage and respect in Australia - then, is that not the ultimate indicator of self interest overriding all else.

Win SBS first, then start complaining about the other media.

Koala Bear said  | March 17th 2008 @ 2:27pm | Report comment

Redb wrote: Les Murray included and read soccer fans try the line that the AFL and NRL have nothing to worry about, that’s the crap. Should the AFL step aside for soccer, the answer is no. But the issue is far more complicated than a yes/no response, which is why the AFL has been tentatively supportative.

Redb,
I agree with you its war….!!! and the “Smell the Fear Syndrome is ripe and spreading” not that I am an advocate of it. However, I read a piece from one of your AFTL jurnos describing that goal that Timmy Carhill scored against Japan in the WC and he described it as a dagger straight in the chest of AFTL he,he,he… I am sure it was the furtherest thing from Timmy’s mind when he hit the back of that net…Ha, Ha.. If he only knew what a stir he caused in the Melbourne Age and the Sun Herald … He might have gone on and scored a hat trick… Football will be the number one code buy 2018…he,he… then the rugbies and then AFTL….He He… Why cos your extension ladder only can reach up to Brisbane..

~~~~~
KB

Koala Bear said  | March 17th 2008 @ 6:32pm | Report comment

Redb
as I said the hysteria of some of your AFTL commentators leave me breathless at times, (check 5th parra) and like you watch all codes of football on FTA TV. And to tell you the truth I may have watched more Rugby League and AFTL more than my preferred football as I am treated like a second class citizen and forced to go to the local RSL to watch the odd HAL and Socceroo match when it is on on a reasonable time. Because we can’t get a FTA coverage even now with all of the magnificent ratings that Fox are receiving we poor Football folk who cannot afford Fox are still left to watch our less preferred live sports.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/soccer/twin-stumbling-blocks-could-stymie-australias-bid-for-world-cup/2008/02/24/1203788146015.html

And to top it off; we have to sit thru the life stories of the drunken buffoons and drug habits of Wayne Carey when we would have liked a simple wrapped up report on the Melbourne Victory ACL match against the Sth Koreans … Not a word; even when you had a turnout of 23k for God’s sake.. This is the point “Midfielder” was making we have an audience all over the nation interested in the progress of Melb victory but Barry Cassidy chose stories that did not concern the majority of the nation..

As the ABC is the national broadcaster and government funded they have a duty to report news worthy items of national achievement and Melb Victory is a significant story to the nation not Wayne Carey’s indiscretions of drug use which I find appalling to have to sit thru.. unlike you a Melbourne Victory supporter I would have found the Melbourne Vic’s Victory much more an engaging story.. But not one word ..

How’s the Pura Cup going did we NSWelshmen smack you arses again..??

~~~~~~
KB

Michael C said  | March 17th 2008 @ 8:35pm | Report comment

Simon -

hmmmm, initially I thought you might be Simon Hill in disguise (like how Tarzan didn’t recognise the Elephants, because they were wearing sunglasses) - then I read on. Obviously you ARE NOT and THAT IS a breath of fresh air.

KB -

look, if soccer wants all the crap coverage about what retired ’stars’ are doing etc etc. Fine. I loved Carey on the field. Never ever cared whether a player was a laywer or labourer - alas, these days they tend to all be professional footballers - maybe, maybe stretching a degree over 8 years - which some folk do without the excuse of a concurrent professional career - but, that’s another story about wasted efforts and efficiency of drinking time.

anyway, KB, to get to the point, be glad that you don’t have to put up with the ‘good names’ of stars past, and precious memories of fields of feats - being dragged through the mud by a voracious media. In England, you’d be getting all this rot about your preferred game.

I am sick of the media labelling people as bad role models!!! If they didn’t report it, then, no one would know and they wouldn’t therefore be bad role models……..

I’m over it. I just want to be able to watch the ‘96 and ‘99 GF videos without thinking stuff that I wasn’t thinking at the time.

Redb said  | March 18th 2008 @ 8:24am | Report comment

KB,

In your last paragraph you allude to the possibilties of stadium upgrades as a result of the WC bid. That’s great, move the tournament to soccer season in OZ and I’m in.

cheers
Redb

Redb said  | March 18th 2008 @ 4:57pm | Report comment

KB,

Pura?…………. we are getting creamed

Sorry, dont buy the argument re stadia as they will predominantly be rectangular in shape. If the cricket World cup required stadia upgrades for the SCG and the Gabba, then that may help footy.

We are talking massive disruption to the AFL season, in fact due to cricket, the MCG,SCG are unavailable earlier or later. But really its more the huge break during the season.

We’ll have to agree to disagree.

cheers
Redb

Koala Bear said  | March 19th 2008 @ 8:44pm | Report comment

Michael C wrote:: I’m still trying to work out the whole point of you raising Roy Masters and his thoughts about the ‘Harrow’ game.
Sean Fagan is the first to point out that Aust Football was NOT played regularly on ovals for quite some time.
Yeah, Harrow played a fair part in the first soccer rules. i.e. allowing ‘fair catches’ and no x-bar for goals.

Comrade C,
I must admit I at first found it hard to understand Roy Master’s point — but I think it is that AFTL is only 131 yrs old and it is not a true indigenous article as your masters have alluded you to.. Now remembering I am a Football tragic trying to understand John Harms and Roy Master’s discussion here — Roy has made some valid points that it was not until 1877 that the VFL was formed and his argument is that AFTL’s 150 celebrations are designed to disrupt the 100 yrs of Rugby League in Australia; nothing else as the original game did not remotely resemble the game that was played in 1850 according to him.

But more like Rugby or Harrow Football; after doing a search on Harrow I found that. That game resembles AFTL more than Rugby, Rugby League, or Soccer. Especially when point scoring is involve, as it is described in its URL site (base score) where a punt for goal from a mark between to up right post without a crossbar to as high as you wish will give you the points… Sound familiar… ha ha.. Now it seems that Harrow was played in 1830 and before that in 1803 it was called Fug football similar to what Thomas Ellis describes in the Geelong FTC site.. So sorry Comrade I shall have to run with Roy on this one..

PS. Burt is still recovering in hospital after the generic Vegemite from Micky; now this news will certainly kill him off — but mums the word on this one…. Along with the coming Blues Victory..(Sheffield Shield).. He still has some unpaid betting debts he owes me..

~~~~~
KB

Michael C said  | March 19th 2008 @ 10:29pm | Report comment

KB -

2 problems.

1 is that in 1908 the 50 year jubilee of Aust Footy was celebrated - obviously the first effort to derail the yet to be formed or only just forming Rugby League in Sydney.
In 1958 the ‘centenary’ of Australian Football ‘carnival’ was held, again, an obvious attempt to undermine the 50 year jubilee of Rugby League.
Therefore, I’d suggest that only an ignorant scribe seeking to create a stir would seriously suggest that the AFL participating with the broader Australian Footy community in the 150th celebration is designed simply to disrupt the Austrlian Rugby league centenary. Roy is up to his tricks.

re. the first game of ‘Australian Football’. The ‘codification’ via a ‘league’ proper is probably a bit irrelevant in the context that the continuous line is drawn via the Melbourne Football Club. It is those rules - of 1859 - and the evolution of those rules that is a direct line to the game today. The fact that early on there was not the ‘human’ infrastructure of a city the size of London - and so to form a league over night was far from realistic.

It is certainly far, far more appropriate that the AFL/Aust Footy in general - draws a line directly back to those rules - simply because of what I mentioned AND that that club, the Melbourne FC is still going strong today. That should be beyond argument and it is entirely disengenous that small minded Rugby folk are squabbling about the ‘first Australian rule’ or the first ‘true game’ etc etc.

the reality is that all rule sets were in a state of flux - the school of rugby had about 37 rules written down in about 1845 - and, still before each game there was likely to be a squabble over the rules of the day. Needless to say, to play anybody else from beyond the school boundaries would require a compromise. That is beyond dispute.

The myth or otherwise for Australian (Melb) Rules is that the squabbling associated with the particular ‘3 part’ game in 1858 is where the determination to create a single set of rules was ‘cemented’. Certainly, that can seem a little tenuous. I’d see simply that there could be an 1858 vs 1859 argument here.

Now - the 1859 rules.
Original handwritten rules dated May 1859; signed by Tom Wills, William Hammersley, J. Sewell, J. B. Thompson, Alex Bruce, T. Butterworth and Thomas Smith:

1 The distance between the goal post shall be decided upon by the captains of the sides playing.
2 The captains on each side shall toss for choice of goal. The side losing the toss has the kick-off from the centre-point between the goals.
3 A goal must be kicked fairly between the posts without touching either of them or a portion of the person of any player of either side.
4 The game shall be played within the space of not more than 200 yards wide, the same to be measured equally upon each side of the line drawn through the centre of the two goals and two posts to be called the kick-off points shall be erected at a distance of 20 yards on each side of the goal posts at both ends and in a straight line with them.
5 In case the ball is kicked behind the goals, anyone of the side behind whose goal it is kicked, may bring it back 20 yards in front of any portion of the space between the kick-off posts and shall kick it as nearly as possible in the line of the opposite goal.
6 Any player catching the ball directly from the boot may call ‘mark’. He then has a free kick. No players from the opposite side being allowed to come into the spot marked.
7 Tripping and pushing are both allowed but no hacking when any player is in rapid motion or in possession of the ball except for the case provided by rule 6.
8 The ball may be taken in hand only when caught from the boot or on the hop. In no case shall it be lifted from the ground.
9 When the ball goes out of bounds (the same being indicated by a row of posts) it shall be brought back to the point where it crossed the boundary line and thrown in right angels with that line.
10 The ball while in play may under no circumstances be thrown.

first thing - only 10 rules - that leaves a bit of squabbling to be done before each game - so, still fairly fluid. however, the 1863 London rules only had about 11 rules - so, still some fair scope for squabbling.

Now - the 1845 Rugby school rules allow:
“Fair catch, is a catch direct from the foot”
then rabbits on about OFf Side, Knock on being illegal distinguished from a throw on,
had the ‘try at goal’ - and NOT kicking goals directly.

So - Sean Fagan firstly, who insists that the first games were likely to be games of Rugby - and that off-side wasn’t overly stringent at that time and that Aust Footy probably had some such, however, Rugby school rules # 2,3, 10,11, 12, 13, 14, 27 all refer to off-side or on his side. So, on the standards of the day, including over the next 20 years, that’s a fairly good illustration of off-side.

For the Melbourne rules to NOT mention off-side implies that it wasn’t there.

So - to Harrow -

they use a pork pie ‘ball’
the have off-side
they have a really complex system around a ‘catch’, - ‘yards’ - the sort of thing only a school could come up with - i.e. can only be caught by a member of the same team who was behind the kicker when kicked - otherwise off side, but can be caught by any of the opposite side etc etc.
they have a ‘baseline’, and kick goals called ‘bases’,

So - maybe a snippet of influence there? Hardly the ‘game’ of Harrow in it’s virgin form - although, note, the Harrow lads called their game ‘footer’.

Thomas Wills had been educated at Rugby School in England (where Rugby football had been codified since 1845). Wills had also, like W. J. Hammersley and J. B. Thompson, been to the University of Cambridge. The Cambridge Rules, drawn up in 1848, included some elements which are important in Australian football, such as the mark. Thomas Smith was Irish and had attended Trinity College, Dublin, where the Rugby School rules were popular at a very early stage. These men would have been familiar with other public school and university games.

And so to the Cambridge Rules circa 1856
The Laws of the University Foot Ball Club
1-This club shall be called the University Foot Ball Club.
2-At the commencement of the play, the ball shall be kicked off from the middle of the ground: after every goal there shall be a kick-off in the same way.
3-After a goal, the losing side shall kick off; the sides changing goals, unless a previous arrangement be made to the contrary.
4-The ball is out when it has passed the line of the flag-posts on either side of the ground, in which case it shall be thrown in straight.
5-The ball is behind when it has passed the goal on either side of it.
6-When the ball is behind it shall be brought forward at the place where it left the ground, not more than ten paces, and kicked off.
7-Goal is when the ball is kicked through the flag-posts and under the string.
8-When a player catches the ball directly from the foot, he may kick it as he can without running with it. In no other case may the ball be touched with the hands, except to stop it.
9-If the ball has passed a player, and has come from the direction of his own goal, he may not touch it till the other side have kicked it, unless there are more than three of the other side before him. No player is allowed to loiter between the ball and the adversaries’ goal.
10-In no case is holding a player, pushing with the hands, or tripping up allowed. Any player may prevent another from getting to the ball by any means consistent with the above rules.
11-Every match shall be decided by a majority of goals.

Again, a rule here or there that is similar or mostly the same, but

the obvious thing about the Melbourne rules is that they are a unique combination.

The main joker in the pack is Sheffield who also had no off-side.

However, the common thread is that both Sheffield and Melbourne were rule sets established by cricketers for the purpose of playing a game for fitness. Therefore, all that off-side rot was too restrictive (seemingly).

Some of Fagans assertions for example are that certain rules were brought in (such as bouncing the ball) to stop obvious rugby style play. And perhaps so, perhaps too many new folk to the game applied their own interpretations and unwritten ‘understandings’ became written. No one knows. There’s no video footage. The game appears to have been positional quite early.

Out of all that KB - can you definitively claim that that set of rules was not sufficiently unique as to stand apart.

I think so.

I reckon Roy Masters and Sean Fagan are the ones being more troublesome and mischievous at present. They are most certainly filling in what gaps they can assume are present with their own interpretations or suppositions.

And, again, people NEED to separate the AFL from Aust Footy in general on this topic.
We are celebrating the first game between Old Scotch and Melbourne Grammar - they are ‘Aust Football’ schools. They play annual games to celebrate this match - and this year will be the 150th - how significant was that game? I don’t know. It seems that prior to 1908 it was deemed significant - they probably knew more back then than us now.

Maybe it requires a little leap of faith - there’s who religions based on that, there’s a Trophy for the RUWC based on that - and really, what rock solid evidence is there for the Aust Footy community to break the 1908,1958, 2008 time line of ‘anniversary celebrations’??

You wanna tell me they aren’t doing their darndest to undermine the Aust Football celebrations - which they must have known were coming. And, from the AFL media I’ve actually not heard anything or any reference to suggest that the NRL centenary is unwarranted - although I’m yet to see any examples of the 50 year jubilee of RL in Australia.