LK said  | February 26th 2008 @ 10:02am | Report comment

I’m concerned for you, Michael. Very concerned.

Last week in blog correspondence a “Michael C” passionately argued the government under funds AFL, and in particular taxpayers should be stumping up for larger stadia in WA.

Today on this blog “Michael C” passionately argues taxpayers shouldn’t fund stadia for football.

Surely no person can hold such contradictory views and I’m worried that your identity has been stolen.

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LK said  | February 26th 2008 @ 12:45pm | Report comment

Ok, I think I get it. The AFL shouldn’t move from the MCG because:
a) it was a govt funded stadium for cricket, AFL and – ahem – one off events
b) it is run by a cricket council
c) AFL has always played there.

It is probably a moot point. FIFA may not like playing games there due to its oval proportions. Can’t the AFL stage all MCG games at the stadium they own? Or is it the principle of AFL having to postpone or re-schedule mid season games (rather than the venues) that upsets you?

It is a lot of money for a potential failed bid. If they do fail, do they blow more moolah bidding for 2022?

Speaking of directing money straight to the top of a sport – didn’t the AFL recently propose a second Sydney team? This issue has been dealt with on this site ad nauseam, but shouldn’t they first put the money into Auskick etc then announce a team when there is a mass of support?

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Millster said  | February 26th 2008 @ 1:36pm | Report comment

MC - as you know I hold you in goodwill, and have myself apologised for a few over-the-top pro-football rants to you. But, if you don’t mind me saying so, it is now your turn to apologise for this overly hysterical, insecure posting.

A few points in no particular order.

1. Althetics and most Olympic sports are (outside the Olympics themselves) poorly attended and very heavily subsidised in a whole variety of ways. However, in recognition of the unique nature of the Olympic Games, both Melbourne (1956) and Sydney (2000) put on special arrangements, changed other events, and made the best venues available. The World Cup is an even bigger project and event. Why would the same not apply? That’s not to say that other sports can’t continue - and yes I agree with sharing Aussie culture including AFL with our visitors - but surely they have to accept some degree of accommodation for such a major event. Anything short of that would be downright churlish.

2. Telstra Dome aside, the MCG, SCG and other ovals on which AFL is played are in fact cricket ovals (and yes I do give you credit for realising this about the MCG in your second posting). Sure AFL is a major tenant. But it absolutely CANNOT run the line that it morally owns those grounds which would be World Cup venues. In any case, outside of the MCG, TD and perhaps Subi Oval (unless Perth finally gets it’s act together with a decent stadium) I think it’s more an issue for the venues of the Rugby codes - SFS, Sydney Olympic Stadium, Suncorp, Canberra, etc.

3. My point 3 is that I don’t understand your point 3. Can you please clarify. Not trying to be a smartarse here.

4. Where is your ambition mate? You would well know that some things take a few attempts before success arrives, and this bid may well be a first phase in a longer term plan. And what a national project. In the industry that I work in, putting up $20-50mill for such an endeavour is peanuts. Hell, that amount wouldn’t even buy the undercarriage on a single one of the possible Aussie squadron of F22 fighter planes that are making headlines in today’s press. I agree that 2018 will probably end up in Europe. But just to signal to FIFA that we are a serious, credible, well credentialled force is worth every cent and drop of sweat. More broadly, for all our so-called national ‘can-do’, I think we as a country are gutless wonders when it comes to major projects of any sort(not only sporting). Why not start redressing that…

5. As a mitigator to the above, why are you so scared of what is just currently a press release and some news print? By 2011 (the planned announcement date) there will have been another World Cup, and 3-4 more seasons of HAL. Either ’soccer’ as you put it will have crashed and burned which means this will all go away, or it will continue it’s growth and this project will make sense. We’re not taking about a finishing line that is tomorrow.

In closing, sorry but I do think you are myopic. This issue extends well beyond little old AFL’s place in the world (which seems to be Blacktown at the moment) and I say that with no disrespect to the game which I don’t mind. But who is getting ahead of themselves in putting a ridiculous argument that the indigenous sport, not even nationally followed, in a relatively minor country, should stand in the way of one of the world’s leading events?

And to demonstrate that I am not just talking from a one-eyed soccer-head point of view, if AFL was a world game played in 200+ countries and with a TV audience for it’s final of 2.5bn+ people, and with far-reaching political and sociological ramifications, I would be arguing just the same things for it too.

PS: Surely an AFL that had ‘no problems sharing a sporting landscape’ would pick up and run a couple of seasons in, say, Germany, Brazil, Japan, Russia, Tunisia… after all, if you expect HAL to play in winter, against principles of competitive advantage (and incidentally forcing it to compete more directly against your beloved AFL), then surely AFL and all it’s supposed intrinsic value should also be judged by putting it outside of it’s geographic/seasonal/commercial comfort zone and seeing just how well it fares.

Oh and PPS on the Viduka thing: Should Ben Cousins hold off on a few lines of coke and put the $$ back into say AFL player development in WA’s indigenous communities? Let’s not hold individuals - however good or bad - responsible for infrastructure that should be developed by clubs and/or communities.

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Michael C said  | February 26th 2008 @ 2:27pm | Report comment

Millster -

cheers - I deliberately chose a slightly hysterical rant delivery - to be a little provocative. If I’ve gone too far over the top - I apologise. However - I stress - I’d love to see Australia get the event. But - not at all costs.

RE 1. athletics etc, I’ve long decried their over funding - especially in the lead up to Olympics. The way we effectively ‘buy’ medals to make the general populous feel good about themselves - and give the elected leaders some good smiling photo ops - - I find just barely more tolerable than the old days of the East Germans all being employed in the military and therefore, we knew, being effectively full time paid athletes in a supposedly more amateur era. At any rate - certain really, really, minor and in some cases very ‘elite’ sports only exist because they are part of the IOC. The AOC traditionally is more powerful in Australia than is FIFA. Therefore, the AFL got whacked by the Govt with the urging of the AOC to support the IOC WADA code that FIFA themselves weren’t going to sign up to for another 2 years thereafter (and even then with strings attached). So - I recognise this battle for supremacy and that the AFL is small fry in the middle not aligned with either. Anyway - the IOC knows that many of these ‘fringe’ sports that fill out the calender would struggle for crowds if the Olympics weren’t the ONLY game on in town.

Re 2. certainly, there is a lack of rectangular 40K venues, let alone decent 60-80K venues. I doubt that Govts under pressure over water, climate change, health, indigenous affairs etc will want to build more venues than absolutely necessary. Especially given that at present, there’s no reason to believe that the rectangle codes will NEED that many such large venues. There’s no proof yet. The AFL is still the most regular large ground filler in the country - on ovals, probably followed by cricket - obviously also on ovals. So - that would be an issue I reckon on just how loose the purse strings would become. Obviously as well, ovals tend to have a bit of a camber that soccer detests.

Re 3. If soccer schedules the FIFA WC to NOT interrupt their own tournaments, leagues etc - - then, it’s a bit rich to expect other codes to be interrupted. THat’s blatant hypocrisy. And if the AUst Govt were to attempt to ‘force’ the AFL and NRL to make way - that would be something requiring of an awful lot of compensation. Does FIFA pay compensation? Put that one to Les Murray on the ethics committee.

Re. 4 & 5 - I don’t care whether FIFA take us seriously or not. Get the Socceroos winning in the Asian Cup might be a start. I heard Les on SEN last night, and he was ‘over’ a lot of the VIctim Australia whinging that has happened in the past. To me, it just seems like shooting for the stars in a VW beetle…….I reckon the FFA is far, far better getting it’s house a little more in order. Showing that after 10 years the HAL and FFA haven’t shot themselves in the foot. And this is one of those things I think of from the funding and grants application perspective. The track record of soccer in Australia is one of instability and unsustainability. You wouldn’t seriously then be granted huge amounts of money, just for a ‘big’. I am just curious about the Rudd agenda on this topic however.

I’d sooner Australia proove itself NOT a gutless wonder by many other means than simply applying for hosting a soccer tournament. I can see why it means a lot for South Africa. But - we aren’t short of ‘unified’ sports/infrastructure etc. It is a WANT - not a NEED. But - that said, if the MCG got listed as a FIFA WC final venue - then, the MCC would probably triple it’s annual earn on guided tours.

Let’s imagine Baseball Australia wants to host the World Series. However, we need lots of new venues and cricket and the HAL will have to stop to make way. Get real!!!!! Sort it out yourselves.

I thought soccer WAS a winter sport? Although, I did notice Sepp Blatter float an idea of making it a summer sport because it might be more attractive. That doesn’t seem to have caught on yet.
btw - soccer is a global commodity. AFL is a sigle nation commodity. Soccer is far more able to look after itself. However, should AFL seek to expand O-S - and I really doubt it professionally - it would be as a cute little niche rather than a full on competitor. The best I could ever expect is a Nrth American regional level and Euro international level semi-pro league type structure. Certainly not individual country/city pro leagues. But - who knows. Thinking about a 20+ milllion Aust population compared to European or Nth American continental populations - the scale and scope is all vastly different. And makes all the more insignificant in one respect a few hundred competitors here and there. But, as Paul Kelly sings, “From little things, big things grow”.

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Michael C said  | February 26th 2008 @ 2:46pm | Report comment

Benny, Benny, Benny

Remember, Soccer is the Brits OWN term of ‘affection’ for ASSOCIATION FOOTBALL.
Soccer is widely used in Canada, New Zealand, USA, Australia, and is interchangeably used in Britian itself. Gee - does that cover most the English speaking world??

“FOOTBALL”
we have American Football, (colloq. “Grid Iron”), Canadian Football, Gaelic Football, Australian Football (colloq. ‘Aussie Rules’, ‘Footy’), Rugby Football Union, Rugby League and Association Football.

Now, just because the good people of Liberia might only be family with one code of football, and therefore when THEY refer to ‘Football’, they mean ‘Association Football’ - then, I don’t see why I, in the worlds most crowded and competitive football market should copy they?!?!?!!?

This is a silly argument, the obvious analogy being that of beer. If you go into a pub anywhere in the world, ask for a ‘beer’ and see what you get offered. I doubt you’ll get offered the same ‘brand of beer’ everywhere in the world. And, if you want one in particular - then, to avoid ambiguity, you provide sufficient information to make yourself clear and understood.

Back to Simon Hill - he comes from England, lives in Sydney and is a soccer fundamentalist. I understand his ignorance. However, as a guest in such a grand and significant venue - he should be a little more aware of it’s history, and a little more respectful via his phrasing. Perhaps he didn’t mean to cause offence - I somehow feel that he might have been a little deliberatly mischevious - if not, then just ignorant. Either way - I don’t rate him. (or, am I getting my own back on behalf of Trevor Grant who in my mind didn’t say anything that every 2nd soccer fan might not say themselves). At any rate, in making such a statement, I think he needed to provide a little ‘qualification’ to his claim.

Going forward -

well, firstly, Fairfax media still has to convince News Ltd accross the board that soccer should be labelled ‘football’. It might happen. It seems a Sydney based movement trying to dictate to the entire country. Personally I hope we can keep Australia from just blindly following, and ensure that local ‘house rules’ apply, including to linguistics.

secondly - the AFL and Australian footballers throughout the country play the game based on the publication “The Laws of AUstralian Football”.

I think, in the Australian context, there’s a fair claim already on ‘Football’. So - join with the AFL and Aust football community as we celebrate 150 years of organised football in this country. We’re, after all, all one big happy family - the football family.

(by the way, original rules of soccer - London FA 1863:

4. A goal shall be won when the ball passes between the goal-posts or over the space between the goal-posts (at whatever height), not being thrown, knocked on, or carried.

8. If a player makes a fair catch, he shall be entitled to a free kick, providing he claims it by making a mark with his heel at once; and in order to take such a kick he may go back as far as he pleases, and no player on the opposite side shall advance beyond his mark until he has kicked.

Gee, where would you go to see rules such as these today?

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Michael C said  | February 26th 2008 @ 3:25pm | Report comment

A little off topic by the end, but….

You were more likely to find NRL coverage in News Ltd Herald sun than Fairfax Age!! WHat, are you talking about circa 1996 or something?? Back before Superleague had settled down and News Ltd was firmly entrenched? ACtaully, I went to the SoO at TD 1.5 years ago - a couple of Newie boys who, and a couple non-hardened AFL types. That only got interesting in the last 10 minutes. Up to then, stuff all sense of anticipation that something might happen. (I think I’ve realised that in Aust Footy we want a sense that something might happen any time, and if the game is over with 10 mins to go and we’re losing then that’s our chance to get out of the carpark - where as soccer and rugby seem often that less is likely to happen in the first 70-80 mins than is anticipated for the last 10 mins - - in general - - and I recognise the generalisation of the comment, more just a little observation - so please don’t debate it)

MVFC had a 26K home average this year - largely in part because the FFA stuffed up the fixture, giving Ade Utd 2 home hostings of MVFC in first 8 rounds and making the Vics wait for a GF replay until about Rnd 15 or something. By then, the chances for another 40-50K were lost. Likewise, not scheduling the MV vs SFC the week earlier over the Melb Cup ‘extended weekend’ - missed another 50K there. silly, silly scheduling.

But - yes, MVFC, 22K members, best crowds in the HAL. WIns the GF, same year that Storm wins the GF, and all while AFL has record crowds and membership. We aren’t too worried. So don’t worry too much for us!!

The HAL GF,…..those boys would need a bit more fitness over a larger field and a little more meat on their bones…….

remember, some ‘body type’ is ’sculpted’ to need. We aren’t always talking different gene pools, we’re often talking sports specific conditioning. Coming through juniors one always came across kids who were built like men. They, history often told us, would be the ‘peaked too soon’ stories. Islander kids, a different story - as that is a gene pool issue.

Soccer kids transition far, far better to Aust footy than to the Rugby codes, and transition better FROM soccer to Aust Footy than do Rugby kids to Aust Footy. So long as Aust Footy survives, then, lot’s of NSW and QLD kids playing soccer instead of Rugby isn’t that bad a thing. Might actually be a good thing, the main thing is to have enough of them ALSO playing basketball rather than indoor soccer! Even touch rugby is good, that’s a game about NOT getting tackled - which is part of the flaw in the field Rugby ‘instinct’ when transitioning to Aust Footy.

cheers.

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Millster said  | February 26th 2008 @ 4:45pm | Report comment

…and to continue that thread, the only remaining VIC teams would be the Dangenong Rangers and the Macedon Monsters, that is unless AFL becomes an aquatic sport. Which is not at all unlikely given how much tinkering with the rules occurs in that game…

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Dave said  | February 26th 2008 @ 5:54pm | Report comment

I think Michael C has a reasonable point. I mean we have had the Rugby Union World Cup in Australia and apparently this year the Rugby League World Cup??? Now it is only right that if we are to have a disruption to the AFL season due to the real World Cup coming to Oz then there should be some pay off for the AFL. I know, why dont we postpone the HAL so the AFL can have their World Cup…i reckon about about 10 minutes should do it (when the AFL make the phone call to the Gaelic Association and are told to p… off as the Irish dont want to get beaten up again). Therefore instead of kicking off next seasons HAL at 7.30 on a Friday in August wait until 8pm…the AFLs World Cup will be well and truly over by then.

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Midfielder said  | February 26th 2008 @ 6:06pm | Report comment

MC

I think you understand the power of the world cup to a much greater extent than you say. Its not giving up the grounds for the nations good over four weeks that concerns you but the impact of the event, first the six or so years led into the WC, the matches Australia will have against very high quality teams, and finally the WC itself.

It could even smash the Melbourne media mafia, Peter Fiz in a rugby context made very similar noises to yours about the WC, but with a union fear.

What I find interesting about the AFL (apart from the game itseld) is the AFL decision to declare war on all codes as a way of being there and as a major sport in 30 years. Union is lost and will need all of ONeil’s skills to build from the grass roots, union has have had a top down approach for years, with yes men underneath them to say all is find when it is not at the park level, and without park and grassroots to support it union will struggle.

League, has entered whether by accident or choice a defacto sharing arragement with football of grounds and relationships are forming pertaining to crowd sharing as well. So co-operation and lets grow together.

AFL is the head on all out war.

Will be interesting to see who’s response works better in the long term.

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Midfielder said  | February 26th 2008 @ 10:29pm | Report comment

Stamarocks ……….well said and long suspected myself.

Buts what is even funnier is the way they seem to see the whole thing as a war, and keep on the attack, with hype, half truths, etc…………but when it all starts unravil it will be fun to watch. The people I feel sorry for are those rusted AFL hardcores in Mexico who have placed their faith in a management team that will realise to late they were on the wrong track.

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Michael C said  | February 27th 2008 @ 9:08am | Report comment

Benny -

For almost 50 years, the pre-eminant ‘football’ magazine from Britian - titled “World Soccer”. I rest my case. (btw- Les Murray holds a first edition copy as one of his most proud possessions…….I wonder if he’s used a black texta to scribble out the word ’soccer’ and replace it with ‘football’?????, now doubt, you yourself would. I think there’s a new found oversensitivity on behalf of soccer folk - most often displayed by those adament that ’soccer’ is a US construct and the use of it is designed purely to demean and repress the soccer world………please tell me you’re not one of those?

midfielder -

It’s actually been the RUgby folk who have come out and declared West Sydney a battleground. And I’m bemused that they (other than Denis Fitzgerald) regard the AFL as such a threat - I think they are using it as an excuse to ‘raise the banners’ in the real fight against soccer. As you say though, at a certain level - FOR NOW - there’s some mutual benefit for the rectangle pitch sharers. However, we all know the battle is at the grass roots level for the players of the future. And soccer is well and truely on the toes of the 2 Rugby codes right through NSW.
AFL fights not with the rectangle ground fraternity, AFL is busy with it’s partnerships with cricket. And so, like the rectangle boys, there is a mutual benefit level of co-operation available and being pursued. One that in reality has always existed and is the initial reason the code came to be.

westy -

oh dear, since when did you believe the spin???

The AFL has said they support the principle of Australia hosting the World Cup. But, similar to the NRL, have no specific information and would be interested in knowing more.

Basically - the right thing to say at this juncture where nothing actually is on the table.

Stamrocks -

what a lot of people fail to understand about many AFL types is that - as a function of being a domestic only code that runs for a defined season - we all have other interests. i.e. the architypal Aust Footy player plays cricket over summer, goes to the Boxing day test, watches a bit of tennis, might follow the nags, watch the FA CUp final and barrack for the Wallabies and Socceroos………very, very few AFL folk a mono-sport folk. I gather, that, because soccer is - if you want it - a 365 day a year ‘global’ event - that, it is very easy for many soccer folk to completely immersed, to be absolutely myopic in a sporting sense.

The other aspect, AFL high performance coaches etc, to study ‘worlds’ best practice, - they MUST look outside of the box. However, I know enough soccer followers who follow other sports who are frustrated by the soccer mono-culture. Invariably, the bigger a market segment becomes, the bigger the comfortable and fat market middle ground - all the fat Jabba’s who have no reason to divert from their rut……

Stamarocks -

I’ll come back to you.

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Millster said  | February 27th 2008 @ 11:19am | Report comment

MC - you’ve spoken of this ‘mono-culture’ a number of times before. Can you explain to me what you mean?

I would have thought that it was easier to identify an archetypal social-class/ethnicity/character to each of the 2 Rugby codes and to AFL than to football…

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Michael C said  | February 27th 2008 @ 11:55am | Report comment

Millster -

I would hope that to a degree I’m an example of what I mean. (btw - the HAL provides an interesting case study - and ‘clean’ stats from day one - and good ‘excerise’ for someone who deals a lot with reporting/stats etc)

I think you confuse the Sydney demographics of sport with the traditional Aust Footy states demographics.

In Sydney there are clear League and Union partitions. No argument there. Soccer fits in generally, outside of that. Sydney is also more segregated geographically, if, for no other reason than the harbour etc definitely cuts it north south, similar in a sense to Perth (north and south of the river). Melb just spreads out radially.

In Melb, because Aust Footy grew as the suburbs grew in the mid-late 1800s as Melb became wealthy on the back of the gold rush and became the industrial and there fore suburban centre of Australia (at the time, and in some respects still - the former).

It meant that there was no archetypal social/class/ethnic character for a Aust Footy fan. The leather elbow brigade didn’t support a different code or competition, they more so just supported a different club (eg Melbourne, or Carlton). My NOrht Melbourne are known as the Shin-boners on the back of the old abottoirs out around Nth MElb, Kensington/Newmarket area. And those real blue collar workers got to host the blue bloods at the little old industrial heartland Arden St ground…..and take them on at the same game.

The distinction beyond Aust Footy might then be via the 2nd code/sport etc followed. For example, over summer, some might go off to rowing, to yachting, to tennis, to golf, to cricket.

The soccer mono-culture for those who choose it - is that they support the game as a whole, rather than just a club, or just a competition. They can therefore, in this new pay TV and internet age - ALWAYS find a game happening somewhere. And get their fix. These people don’t therefore need or desire any sport other than soccer - and,
at the admin or coaching level, many people will in all likelihood never have contemplated something from another code - as soccer in their mind provides all the perspective they need.

The Aust Footy culture is often that people support their club and hate everyone else and hate the head office.

Many ethnics in Melb still love their soccer - but, the best way to be able to break the ice anywhere and everywhere was the old “So, who do you follow in the footy”, because, everyone has a team and can at least say “Oh, yeah, they aren’t doing that well this year”, rather than launching into a debate of the merits of Union vs League…….

….I have noticed that the RUgby folk in particular can be a bunch of debaters.

The funniest thing though for me is hearing someone whinging about AFL being played like soccer - and they might give up on it……and do just what??? Go to the soccer. The reality though is that people can happily enjoy both - - just so long as they retain their differences. And that’s why, should the HAL forever remain a summer sport - then - happy happy joy joy - we can all be pretty happy, and even if domestic leagues moved to summer probably more footy players would play soccer over summer to stay fit.

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Michael C said  | February 27th 2008 @ 1:30pm | Report comment

Midfielder -

are you referring to my response to Stamarocks?,
or
my response to Benny?

My problem with ‘football’ - association football (no major problems with that as a sport that like all others has good and bad aspects), problem with juvenile and smart rrrr’s comments such as

“Enjoy the AFL season but just keep a thought in your mind while you are watching 80 point blow outs at your beloved MCG that Football has awoken and can smell the fear of the other codes.”

I had kinda thunk’d that the Roar might be a level above the school yard.

It is obvious that I’m almost running solo on the AFL front - I gather most AFL punters keep to themselves on Bigfooty etc, and somehow thus far theRoar seems very NSW/QLD Rugby/Soccer focussed. So - I apologise if I labour some points - however, I have realised that the demographic of the audience is in some cases completely ignorant by choice/birth/circumstance/no fault of their own.

Anyway, I find the Aust Football landscape intriguing. ANd I learn more about and to appreciate more my preferred game via learning more about other games and codes. Via another thread in discussion with Sheek you can see some of my main bugbears around scoring in soccer. However, I’ve never stated anywhere that I believe AFL scoring for example is perfect and have quoted where I believe it is deficient.

Hmmm, main problem with soccer for so long in Australia is that it lived off the coat tails of the world. Telling us how great it was because of all it’s overseas relatives……..finally the Australian family is starting to grow up……because, finally it’s decided to BE Australian. About bloody time……now all we need is for the nation as a whole to do the same and become a Republic…..

cheers

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Michael C said  | February 27th 2008 @ 2:46pm | Report comment

Yes, Slippery J,

I’m pretty sure I meant to put in on ‘football’ site, it’s not really an ‘other sports’ topic - although, it’s probably more around ’soccer’ points than AFL points…..but alas, no one has thought far enough to put a ’soccer’ tab - such a shame, ’tis a good size game globally but Australians just still don’t regard it in it’s own right. Maybe you should petition theRoar administrators to insert a ‘Soccer’ tab?

……and as you well know, football is a generic term that collectively describes a variety of football codes played variously across the world - and as such, given that this thread pertains to discussion touching specifically on 2 and mentions explicitly a 3rd football code of the 4 major ones within Australia…..then, really, I couldn’t think of a better place to put it.

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onside said  | February 27th 2008 @ 3:12pm | Report comment

OK lets get off the subject a bit, if anybody can recall what the subject was.
A bit like great pub debates where nobody finishes a thought or a sentence.

I would like to see some form of send off / sin bin rule introduced to AFL.

I would like to see AFL’s total coverage of the boundary / sidelines introduced
to football. That means four assistant referees to cover both sidelines ..

I’ve got some others ,but that will do for the moment

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Michael C said  | February 27th 2008 @ 4:34pm | Report comment

Millster -

I did say “for those who choose it -”, given that you’re clearly NOT in that category (A. I congratulate you, and B. I congratulate you!!)

oikee -
send off is used at most ‘lower’ levels of footy. My comp, the VAFA (Amateurs) have a multi card system of reds, and greens and I think a couple of new ones - I just choose not to worry about what they signify because I’m the cleanest player I know……

There is generally an annual discussion about trialling send off rules in the AFL. The theory especially is that in a Grand Final, you can clock someone who is out of the game, you may then be suspended 10 weeks, but, fat lot of good that is on the day.
Or, maybe apply a rule that if you clean someone up dubiously, then, if they are off hurt for 15 mins, then you should be off for that time too.
Should there be man down scenarios or not - certainly in soccer the often least desired result is a red card in the first 30 mins as that just results in one team playing 9 men back the rest of the afternoon.

I guess the traditional aspect of Aust Footy was to never give that bludger, the umpire - too much power. In the early days the captains umpired and you might appeal to the ‘referee’. (very ‘cricketesque’). The umpire was and always has been of a different breed, and involved only by necessity and to allow the fair dinkum folk to play. Where-as the codes eminating from school sports allow the umpire to effectively ‘enforce’ the game rather like a headmaster the school - which can almost encourage over officiousness rather than just letting the game ‘flow’ - and that’s the sort of umpires we most hate in AFL, the one’s who get out there and seem ego driven to make a “This is my paddock” type of ’statement - - so, to give them the power to send off…….oh, gee, that’s going down a path perhaps best not trod. [I read a bit about it in Geoffrey Blaineys excellent book "A game of our own"].]

cheers Slippery J. (yeah, and mebbe I’ve found my forum(ish), might have to alert Pipps and Redb, can conduct a bit of cross code talk here and get away with it - usually). btw - the thing I find almost most boring is regulation Team A will beat Team B because talk….it’s hard enough to predict the team I follow most closely let alone trying to predict others.

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Michael C said  | February 28th 2008 @ 10:46am | Report comment

Midfielder - I was having a specifc go back at Stamarocks -

I was deliberately being negative to a degree for that purpose alone.

Look - certain folk on theROar go to great lengths (other than presenting facts) to assert that the AFL is massaging figures and misrepresenting reality.

I simply presented factual evidence to -
try to silence the twit going on about ‘enjoy your 80 pt margins’……….that was a stupid statement, and I think I’ve proven a point there.
There is also a notion of ‘great crowds’ in the HAL - and the crowds are doing good, and the total average tells a bit of a story. BUt, similar to the NRL saying wow, look, 3 million - they need to qualify that that was on the back of an extra game each week. And, if you look at average NRL crowds, the average figure for 2007 was boosted hugely by the Titans and Broncos and in the heartland it’s very, very average. Reading between the lines can paint a very different picture.
The HAL. The main reason of an increase in crowd average this year is Wellington. Celebrate that. They got that right. Woohoo, the national soccer comp owes 67% of it’s improved crowds this year to….New Zealand. And the rest of Newcastle and Gosford. Relatively stagnant in Syd, Bris, Melb, Ade and Perth. That tells a story too. Especially with up coming regional expansion, more teams, longer season? teams out of the running earlier? the 2nd tier and related costs? extra travel costs to Townsville? diluted player pool? the debate of a finals series vs ‘top of the table champion’ in a non-relegation environment? etc etc - the HAL still has a fair bit of water to flow under the bridge and is a hugely interesting case study to follow - whether a hard core soccer fan or not. And, one of the most interesting sports marketing aspects is the ability of the HAL to deal with what in reality is it’s biggest competiton. That of soccer. i.e. those who compare it (unfavourably) to international leagues, the socceroos are also in competition with the HAL. THe way the HAL markets itself - ‘football, but not as you know it’ - was that aimed at existing soccer fans or was that ‘declaring war’ and seeking to ‘convert’ people from other codes. The ‘90 minutes, 90 emotions’, is that aimed at existing soccer fans? I reckon the HAL needs to first focus on a marketing promotion like this ‘THis is the league you’ve always wanted, so, stop being bitchy and come and support it’. It’s precisely because I understand the ‘global’ aspect of soccer that makes the fight for ‘identity’ of the national Aust League, ever since the old NSL was the FIRST NATIONAL football league - of any code - such an interesting subject. I’m sorry for being at times a little negative,but, if I wanted ‘bubblegum’ discussions on any topic, I’d simply buy the ‘industry’ magazines and read profile pieces and ladder predictions.

AFL - I do want to do a bit of a review of minimun and median and aveage crowds in Vic and out of Vic. There might be a story to tell. However, we no longer have crowds of 10K at suburban grounds with crappy seating, crappy access and crappy toilets. Given that my Roos are even averaging crowds around 30K, they could never fit that many into Arden St (safely).

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Michael C said  | February 28th 2008 @ 2:17pm | Report comment

Good afternoon Simon,

Thankyou very much for your comment, btw - in saying I don’t rate you - well, I can’t rate you. Don’t worry, there are many AFL journos who I would rate poorly. I have no reason to rate you is probably more appropriate.

The reference to the ’smell the fear’ articles - I stand by - and can well understand the tone taken, I do still describe it as a bit of a childish rant - however, compared to what you are up against in the Sydney media especially including the News Ltd press that seems to very poorly disguise it’s links to the NRL. As a serious piece of journalism, well, I’m sure you’d be unlikely to nominate those articles for a Walkley award.

Thank you for clearing up the FIFA position.

I would love to attend a WC match in town - and would probably love to have a direct overlap with the AFL season so we could clearly show visitors just what the local game is all about.

Re naming of games. That argument is of course a 2-way street. We who follow Australian Football don’t appreciate ’sporting foreigners’ coming along and trying to dictate to us just that same thing. So long as where ambiguity exists that people make themselves clear. And so long as some people get off their high horse about the ‘true football’ - as abstract a concept as that could ever be anyway. The English speaking world of Canada, US, Australia, New Zealand and England illustrate variously that where ambiguity exists, it is probably fairest to provide a clearer identifier - and no country is more ambiguous than Australia.

MCG - soccer in Australia is fortunate to be able to access such a venue, irrespective of camber of the pitch!!!!!

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Slippery Jim said  | February 28th 2008 @ 3:07pm | Report comment

I have no reason to rate you is probably more appropriate

Backpedalling furiously, Michael C?

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