By Joe O\\\'Sullivan
March 18th 2008 @ 5:42pm
Loading ...AFL international expansion won’t happen soon
Some Aussie Rules fans seem to want their cake and eat it. Let me explain. AFL is the most popular football code in the country. There can be no argument about that. AFL has zero international participation. About that view there is argument – at least from some AFL fans.
On more than one occasion over the years while discussing this issue with aussie rules fans I was told that one of the virtues of their game was its uniquely Aust origin and culture and that they were untroubled by its strictly domestic following. I had no reason to doubt the sincerity of their beliefs. However a more cynical person than I might suggest that they had no choice but to make such a statement.
According to the AFL website, aussie rules is played in over 20 countries. Yet the only national representation Australian footballers can aspire to is the on again off again International Rules series against Irish Gaelic footballers. I am still waiting to be advised the name and place of a single domestic international rules league or indeed one of its constituent clubs. International Rules was the brainchild of one Harry Beitzel who was desperate for (then) VFL footballers to have overseas competition. And this I think is the mainly unspoken and silent pain carried in the souls of large numbers of AFL fans.
We can watch our cricketers, socceroos, wallabies, basketballers, netballers, hockey and lawn bowls teams – even kangaroos – but not a national representative Australian rules team. Publicly AFL supporters do not seem particularly concerned by this matter – privately, for some at least I’m not so sure.
SWOT analysis might suggest that the complete absence of credible overseas competition is a weakness, possibly a threat and barely an opportunity. Lately we have seen AFL games played in Sth Africa and the UAE. There has been much written on this site by aussie rules aficionados about the seemingly unending internationalization of their game. ‘Watch this space’, we were recently urged, as if a dramatic football revolution was about to unfold.
I don’t think anything is about to unfold – or ever will. I fear that my AFL loving fellow Australians are experiencing a false dawn. Because after 150 years (or so we’re told) aussie rules football has failed to conquer NSW and Qld let alone planet Earth.
The efforts of expats to take their piece of Australiana with them is nothing if not admirable. But willing amateurs do not equate to a meaningful & significant presence.
The relevant and respective indigenous football codes/winter sports will not even notice. During the 2003 Rugby World Cup the SMH’s chief AFL correspondent (Vic born & bred) Richard Hinds wrote questioning rugby’s and the cup’s credentials to global sport status. Fair enough. However I wonder what Richard’s assessment would be if he was to cast his critical eye over AFL’s international stable. The AFL sojourn to foreign lands reminds me of the American flags planted on the moon. Nice for the family photo album but of absolutely no substance.
AFL fans should celebrate a uniquely Australian game providing healthy choices for our youth & its pre-eminent position amongst the football codes of this country. But don’t demean yourselves by indulging in the delusion of a nonexistent impending international Australian rules epiphany. Its fiction.
As my father used to tell me – you can’t have your cake & eat it.
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Joe FC said | March 18th 2008 @ 7:19pm | Report comment
What?
No point by point rebutal.
No statistically laden refute.
No counter argument bristling with empirical evidence.
Merely a child’s nursery rhyme as code for YOU’RE NOT WRONG
Midfielder said | March 18th 2008 @ 7:42pm | Report comment
Joe
Hard to argue with
LK said | March 18th 2008 @ 8:08pm | Report comment
Say it ain’t so, Joe. Every day I log on to The Roar eagerly anticipating the next hotbed of AFL. Canada and Sth Africa last week, who will it be this week? Lapland? Burkina Faso? Sometimes I think the international AFL stories are spun direct from head office. This is to convince gullible Aussies that the AFL has an international presence and would-be sponsors and fans should jump on board.
I actually enjoy AFL but the international stories are fanciful and increasingly tiresome.
Redb said | March 18th 2008 @ 8:23pm | Report comment
LK,
I can’t speak for every AFL fan, but i see this ‘article’ as nothing more than a troll. look its probably payback for the :Rugby League: who really gets it” article. Dunno and don’t care.
But your are wrong the origin of the international stories being spun out of head office. There is a private site titled World Footy News that started linking international leagues of footy. This guy deserves all the credit for providing an international platform for the game, the AFL website now takes content from that site and as of 2007 started to give it a drop down menu.
Last time I looked its a free world, don;t read comments about AFL being played overseas if it upsets you so. You have the right to choose, click away now or forever hold your peace.
cheers
Redb
p.s. i really like the fact there are 50 teams in the USA, oops sorry about that , remember left hand click…..
sheek said | March 18th 2008 @ 9:18pm | Report comment
Realistically, Australian Football can expect the same fate as American Football & Canadian Football & Gaelic Football – hugely popular within their own borders, but a novelty elsewhere.
At present I would say most countries are happy with the football codes they have, making it exceptionally hard for any new footy codes to break-in.
There is also the name. Deep down, Yanks don’t feel comfortable playing a sport called “Australian football”, just as Aussies don’t feel comfortable playing a sport called “American football”. There’s no sense of ownership, unless of course, you are from the same country as that particularly named football code.
Perhaps we can clarify this by calling soccer World football; & the other footy codes can fight over Earth, Universe, Galaxy, Cosmos, etc, football.
Midfielder said | March 18th 2008 @ 9:25pm | Report comment
Redb
Without doubt AFL is the biggest sport in Australia, in terms of, players no, TV rating no, crowds yes, media space yes, TV deals yes, land area covered yes, population wise no,
If I put AFL at the top of the tree in Australia sport ………….which I do……………… and let me be fair here and say AFL to football in Australia say a watermelon to a grape, in world terms AFL and football, as to Earth to gain of sand.
380 million registered players including 80 million women, played in 204 countries.
Even the NRL have NZ and PNG.
Midfielder said | March 18th 2008 @ 9:30pm | Report comment
Sheek
Some marketing guy got in there long before you “The World Game” …………….following on your lead thr its makes sense.
AFL ‘The Universe Game” played everywhere……………..sheek you should have been in marketing
Redb said | March 18th 2008 @ 9:36pm | Report comment
Sheek,
This is why I made the troll remark. I dont think any AFL fan thinks we are going to break open the world sports market. It is however fun to know that people from other parts of the world are playing our game. These International leagues are expat driven originally, but in time a few locals have also taken it up. There is a South African program testing the water with junior programs, but that’s more about widening the talent base if it works.
Re your point on the name of the code. I dont get too caught up in that. Whilst Aussies are uncomfortable with becoming too American,etc The Yanks are fairly fond of us Aussies, you only have to visit the US to guage that. However, perhaps in recognition of what you are saying, the game is marketed as USFooty in the states.
You may or may not be aware that there are a few Irish Gaelic football players running around in the AFL. Gaelic football still has not shaken off its amateur status, thus the AFL has been able to offer some opportunties. There is some discontent in the Irish press that their best young players could be lured to the Australian game.
So I think the best the AFL could wish for in the foreseeable future is that like with Western Sydney and the Gold Coast, but on a much smaler scale the talent base is widened for clubs in the AFL.
cheers
Redb
cheers
Redb
Redb said | March 18th 2008 @ 9:47pm | Report comment
Midfielder,
Congratulations you’ve won my award for stating the bleeding obvious.
re my troll remark, no-one has said we are on the verge of world domination. But if people dont like reading about footy being played in other countries then its just a sublime click away…..getting all bitter and twisted over it is frankly pretty funny.
cheers
Redb
Midfielder said | March 18th 2008 @ 9:55pm | Report comment
I not the one upset
Redb said | March 18th 2008 @ 9:58pm | Report comment
Midfielder,
Wasn;t aimed at you.
cheers
Redb
sheek said | March 18th 2008 @ 10:19pm | Report comment
Redb,
Yeah, I’m aware there are a couple of Gaelic footballers among the AFL clubs, including Tagh at the Swans. Actually, i like AFL. In fact, although rugby union is my first footy code, I follow all the footy codes in Australia.
I don’t support anyone in particular, just whoever is playing a style that appeals to me. I thought the Cats were overdue, & coach ‘Bomber’ Thompson deserved a premiership.
The amusing thing about 50 clubs playing AFL in the US, is the same as the IRB saying there are over 130 countries playing rugby around the world. Unfortunately, only about 6 national countries play the game to a standard to make most of us happy!
Ditto those 50 AFL clubs in the US. If 12 of them were close to the standard of the AFL, then that would be something. But realistically, what is their standard? There may well be 50 American football clubs throughout Australia. But they’re all at the park ’scratch game’ level.
Redb said | March 18th 2008 @ 10:48pm | Report comment
Sheek,
The standard is very low. Theres the Orange County Bombers, Boston Demons, Chicago Swans, New York magpies, etc Some countries like Canada have junior leagues, its all a bit haphazard and only of interest to us AFL tragics.
I enjoy union and soccer as well.
cheers
Redb
Rodney said | March 18th 2008 @ 11:09pm | Report comment
Hahahahaha RedB
I love those names for the American teams.
Where’s clarkey, this thread was made for him, I expect to come back here tomorrow and see a 10,000 worded post outlining AFL world wide and how it’s taken over and played in more countries than RL already.
Midfielder said | March 19th 2008 @ 12:11am | Report comment
Not Football bloggers a copy of a Foxsports today and it talks about I guess the committment to play for the Socceroos.
These stories down the years have never been told in non football circles ………….anyway to the story and for the AFL, Union & League guys imagine your best players doing this………….not saying they would not…………but give credit were its due…………in a sport were international is bigger than clubs.
http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,23396739-23215,00.html
McDonald suffers for World Cup dream
By Ronnie Esplin
March 18, 2008 CELTIC striker Scott McDonald revealed the logistical difficulties he will endure during his mystery journey to the Far East as he hopes to keep alive his dream of appearing for Australia in the 2010 World Cup.
McDonald will fly out of Scotland after Sunday’s Scottish Premier League clash with Gretna to join his Socceroos teammates for a group qualifier against China in Kunming.
In addition to two long flights, the 24-year-old will have to prepare for a game at altitude before he returns to play against Rangers at Ibrox in a crucial SPL game.
He said: “These are the sacrifices you have to make for your country. It’s important for me because it’s a chance to play in the World Cup. To turn my back on that would be pretty stupid.
“The gaffer has fully backed us as well. He’s been great with everyone, he always wants his players to play for their country.
“We’re playing somewhere near Tibet but I don’t know too much about where I’m going. The game’s being played above sea level to give the Chinese every chance of beating us.”
Despite the difficulties, McDonald is confident he will be in peak condition to face Rangers.
“Australia have physios and doctors in a set-up which is second to none,” he said.
“We have doctors travelling with us on planes making sure we’re sleeping at the right times, even giving us asthma pumps because we’re playing above sea level.
“I had a lung test before I went away the last time. They said for me to cope in these conditions I’d have to take one of the asthma pumps.
“They’ll be making sure we’re well looked after and we come back in good condition because the last thing they want is clubs complaining about it and not letting us go the next time.
“Last time I came back from Australia having played on the Wednesday we played Aberdeen on the Sunday and we won 5-1 and I scored a double. So it’s okay as long as you look after yourself.”
LK said | March 19th 2008 @ 8:17am | Report comment
Redb,
I have no problem with people reading about AFL o/s if it is reported as it should be. That is, a bunch of ex-pat Aussies playing for fun on weekends. Last week we had “Canada next breeding ground for AFL recruitment” on The Roar. Was that trolling? Is it only trolling when you disagree with the content?
Cheers
LK
Redb said | March 19th 2008 @ 8:39am | Report comment
LK,
Trolling is deliberately stirring the pot without any constructive intent. Take our mate Rodney above.
Where has ‘Joe O’Sullivan’ been whilst this thread has dribbled along?
Now there has been progress in North America with Australian football been played on an ever increasing basis (from a zero base). In the USA there was no organised Australian football games prior to 1996, none, not one team of expats, amateurs, park funsters, zippo. In the last ten years this has grown to over 50 teams. That is a fact. Is it newsworthy?, well that depends on your point of view. I like the story as I’ve said. Canada has junior teams, not expats and old farts, but an organised junior competition with developing pathways,etc Will it ever amount to anything in ten years, perhaps, in fact there is already a Canadian teenager playing in the QAFL.
Like I said if your not interested in Australian football being played overseas, please feel free to click away now.
cheers
Redb
Rodney said | March 19th 2008 @ 8:51am | Report comment
Well RedB, Clarkey had a thread at Big Footy where he was saying AFL is bigger than RL around the world now, then he back tracked and said it will be soon, I can’t see any problem with what I said above, I was laughing at all the Aussie names.
What’s wrong with Americans using yank or other names besides Aussie ones only?
It makes it look stupid.
Imagine Parramatta being called the Parramatta Star spangled banners or the Parra Stars n Stripes, or maybe the Parra Maple Leafs?
Joe O'Sullivan said | March 19th 2008 @ 9:40am | Report comment
Redb
As you say its a free world. AFL supporters can write about growing international aussie rules & I can advance a contrradictory view. Why the former is not troll but mine is I’m not quite sure but that is unimportant. You are entitled to your opinion as I am mine. I can choose not to read supportive AFL international posts as you can choose not to read mine. But I did & you did. Neither of us have sinned. You are an AFL tragic ( your words ) & I’m utterly uninterested in the game. Neither of us need apologise for that. I might not like what you write & you might not like what I write. These are our respective rights ( no pun intended ).
Enjoy your AFL & I will enjoy my interests.
LK said | March 19th 2008 @ 9:43am | Report comment
Redb,
It must be the 11 bottles of Coopers I had last night, but I still don’t understand your point. You say, Canadian AFL may amount to something in ten years, ie not soon. There is a junior of Canadian heritage running around in the QAFL. Both these items are newsworthy and “constructive intent” in your opinion. Joe posts that international expansion of AFL won’t happen soon and he is “trolling”?
I’m not having a go, I just want to know where your distinction is.
Cheers
LK
Redb said | March 19th 2008 @ 10:08am | Report comment
Lk,
I see this as a perception thing. The article implies an over statement of AFL’s international footprint. AFL’s international footprint is tiny compared to the other 3 codes in Australia. Well Soccer has a footprint, rugby maybe two toes and an ankle, Rl a toe, AFL has a toenail. But it has a ‘footprint’ nonetheless it is played overseas and it is growing , these are facts.
I think the intent of the article was to over play any AFL fan’s comments about the international growth of the game, it was disingenous and potentially only designed to setup any comments for ridicule from other trollers, surprise, surprise.
But if you have any interest, try World Footy News, its a good read.
cheers
Redb
Michael C said | March 19th 2008 @ 11:23am | Report comment
We pay tribute to the 2007 European All Stars Representative team:
Aliou Sidibe (Czech Republic)
Heikki Tanner (Finland)
Igor Franic (Croatia)
Josip Kravar (Croatia)
Kimmo Heikkila (Finland)
Kreso Franic (Croatia)
Ladislav Hynk (Czech Republic)
Matija Basic (Croatia)
Michael Gouteff (Czech Republic)
Michi Schuardt (Germany)
Raoul Himberger (Austria)
Samuli Lehti (Finland)
Sean Doherty (Ireland)
Sebastian Dorda (Austria)
Sebastian Oberzaucher (Austria)
Tommi Oksanen (Finland)
Coach: Kolja Koracak (Czech Republic)
And DON’T take it all so seriously by virtue of the following (from a Finnish League representative)
“We welcome people of all size and age, we don’t take ourselfs so seriously. We are a great bunch of guys who just love to get away from the box for some excercise and a laugh, followed by a rehydration session here and there. We want anyone who is interested in a kick and some fun, if you have seen a ball before or not. We aim to have teams all over Finland, so don’t be shy and join in the fun. ”
——————————————-
So, pretty cool – they have fun and a good time and the like.
——————————————-
Look – whatever happens – the great, absolutely fabulous thing overseas is – IT AIN’T NSW!!!
‘free’ of the bloody minded anti attitude of NSW folk is NOT the prevailing attitude over there. Now and then though, you still see something like the following example from a “Finland Forum” –
First comment:
“Hey!! Anyone have any details or contact information for the Aussie Rules set up in Helsinki?
Cheers”
Reply:
“Hehe… shouldnt you be playing a real sport.. like league?”
[this is a good natured example at least of how the anti AFL Rugby-lobby attempt to hijack anything and everything relating to AFL - EVEN IN FINLAND!!!!! What's that say about the mentality of the NSW/Rugby fraternity. Well - at a certain point it just says more about the negative mind set of people who play negatively geared games for people who don't know how to look forward and fear running through imaginary lines......!!!!]
Michael C said | March 19th 2008 @ 11:54am | Report comment
Junior international competition as distinct to ‘elite professional’.
At the junior level it is amateur – there may be grand dreams of a $200K a week pay cheque in the EPL or NBA. But, realistically, it’s amateur – such that at various times the under 19 cricket world cup produces results completely incongruous with the more known ‘open age’ competiton.
Junior competition, with bodies and minds that are still developing – is more about talent identification than anything else – and that’s talent in the broader sense of not just a good beep test result.
The simple fact now – that would have been almost undreamed of even just 5 years ago – is that a pretty good little international juniors tournament could be held playing Aust Footy involving England, Denmark, Sweden, PNG, Sth Africa, US, Canada, Nauru, Tonga, Samoa and probably New Zealand, maybe Scotland in the near future, and maybe Ireland. This is the real ’surprise’, this is outside of happy amateurs and ex-pats having a social get together and generating enough funds for a ’sporting’ holiday once every 3 or 4 years. But – let’s see where it all is in 5 years time.
Certainly – still, to play them against a ‘best of Australia’ junior rep team would be plain silly. To play them against a state team would be silly.
However, for the vast majority of us who play a bit as kids and then concentrage on a real job and play hack level on Saturdays over winter – going on to a international professional career probably never really was an option. And so, the fact that already juniors have represented the nations of the US, Canada, England, Denmark, Sweden etc in international matches – at that level, it doesn’t really matter what sport they are playing. And the potential to attract more kids to the game on the basis of the odd international rep game might be a reasonable carrot.
The main question then to the AFL is ‘what you gonna do about it??’. And they, (the AFL) would be negligent to not at least attempt to put in place some frame work that could allow kids to get properly INTO the system. Still, a big ask to move to the other side of the world to one of the most isolated countries in the world.
I do reckon at present, the AFL have figured this is a good chance to test the water. A 17th and 18th team coming in. If ever the clubs are going to be willing to have a serious look outside the square – the next 5-10 years will be it.
If ever those grass roots ‘developers’ of the game overseas have wanted a ‘lure’, then they will have it for the next 5-10 years. This might be make or break.
Again, we know there are kids from PNG (where there are over 10,000 registered players and 4 main regions that participate in the 2007 national juniors from Under 13s to U17s, including girls competitions) in the QLD talent pathway. It is entirely predictable that some PNG ‘natives’ will come through, following in a sense PNG born Mal Michael. That’s the nearest thing to a ‘given’ that there is.
The main curiousity is whether someone bobs up from an unexpected quarter – and that was the purpose of the article. A 192 cm Canadian talented basketballer, soccer player, volleyballer – that alone would be a package you’d think that if you got him at age 16-17 might be able to show enough in a single year of footy. The fact that he’s played footy since age 13 in Canada means there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why he can’t ‘make it’. Anybody willing to suggest that’s not so?
————————–
At the end of it all – we ALL KNOW ALL THE REASONS WHY NOT!! We (AFL folk) don’t need others telling us. We know. However, there’s recently been this little movement that’s slowly, slowly growing in some places, and rapidly in others. And the really curious thing to observe is the way that momentum picks up momentum.
And while there is observable growth – especially at junior level, and now that the world is more ‘open’, the internet is a communications highway and support mechanism and while more games of AFL and even the entire Brownlow count broadcast can be seen on Setanta (and Rusty Crowe bleats that he can’t even get a NRL game on once a fortnight) – well, there’s just a chance that this may be just the beginning of a growth phase.
Or it may be the peak already.
Are we having our cake and eating it too?
Not yet. That’s for sure.
Only a fool would really, really suggest AFL players getting decent standard international matches.
And for those of us who effectively voted against State of Origin mid season because it compromises the regular club competiton – well, if they were to start playing for the country – then, JUST DON’T DO IT DURING THE SEASON!!!!!!
(you can get away with setting the rules when it’s your own game!!!!)
Michael C said | March 19th 2008 @ 1:15pm | Report comment
You might be interested to know the following:
The GAA Counties have voted to resume ‘matches’ with Australia.
The AFL commission is expect to follow suit.
The interesting thing is that, finally, these ‘tests’ will be given the sort of regard they should – in that for example a 2 ‘test’ suspension will equate to a 4 domestic game suspension. Up until now, players from each side effectively were permitted a free for all, especially in the last ‘test’ of each series.
I’m not sure how the crowds will react – perhaps the lust for blood was half the recent for packed out venues.
I still reckon for the GAA fella’s – this is their best avenue to in the short term an professional career (via the AFL) and in the medium term to effectively force the GAA hand and provide some greater financial reward/offset to the players at home. It is after all a global economy and it’s unfair to stand in the way of a ‘career’.
The interesting thing out of all this is that the AFL ‘clubs’ traditionally white ant what isn’t in their interest – but, the Commission and AFL HQ are finally able to force through these penalties. Obviously, it’s no issue if people don’t get sucked in.
Millster said | March 19th 2008 @ 2:18pm | Report comment
Joe O’Sullivan – thankyou for a balanced, realistic but yet respectful article. I read it once, and after following the debate I read it again to be sure. This is nothing like the “League – who really gets it” article which I thought was a crock of shit. (PS I’m not biased in this as I am a football fan and enjoy, but do not regularly follow, both League and AFL in pretty much equal measure as ‘occasional entertainment’).
Your last four lines are well put. The key asset of AFL is that it is a highly entertaining, reasonably skillful game that is utterly indigenous – attractive to locals and a true curiosity to foreigners. It is a key part of our cultural heritage and of the community that is Australia. Iconic – like say Curling is in Canada, or Sumo in Japan, but fortunately a better sport than both.
Incidentally Curling and Sumo are contested in a whole range of countries at ‘hobby’/’social’/'amateur’ levels and even in some cases in reasonably organised leagues. Does that REALLY make them international, or even aspiring international sports?….. PAH!
I agree with your very last line. AFL-ites do “want to have their cake and eat it”. They want the unique cultural niche that is their sport, but they also want it to step up and be measured against the more international games. This is totally unrealistic and frankly irrelevent as an aspiration. It should not be a consideration for AFL fans who have a unique asset right here in Australia, that should be nurtured IN ITS OWN WAY.
Redb said | March 19th 2008 @ 2:50pm | Report comment
Millster,
Nurtured or kept back? This ‘article’ is about saying whoa there AFL, don’t expand beyond these shores, stay as you are. The article pretends to represent the views of all AFL fans. I have never said I dont want Australian football to succeed eventually overseas. Why shouldn’t AFL want their cake and eat it. I want people in other countries to play the game if that is possible.
At the risk of turning this yet again into a full scale code war, you could easily argue the same for soccer in this country. They are already the world game, turning Australia into another country that soccer dominates is merely an ambition of having your cake and eating to? If soccer’s growth is what you all tell us and that juniors will be picking soccer over other sports, then the AFL better get organised and grow the game in any place it can.
You also forget that most rugby and soccer fans attribute Australian football’s lack of international sucess as a sign the game is no good. Something like “you’ve had 150 years to grow the game and youv’e barely got out of the southern states of Australia”. Your talking as if Australian football is the pre-eminent game in every state, its not. it has a long way to go in NSW and QLD. Well, we are listening to you, we cannot be complacent with our little patch any longer.
If there is any message that Simon Hill’s smell the fear remarks have taught us it is that we cannot simply sit back and hold our place in the sun. The world is getting smaller, isolation is a thing of the past. Thankfully, the AFL is taking big strides in Australia and small strides overseas to grow the game. Most of the overseas development is purely organic driven by expats and it has largely happened in the last 10 years.
The question is: Is it time for AFL fans to really smell the fear?
Soccer has plans to dominate the Australian sports landscape much like they dominate Europe. Frank Lowy is a rich and powerful man, AFL fans should be afraid of his plans, they are real.
The tide has turned. Our Prime Minister Kevin Rudd has placed his bet and its on soccer, the world game. He has no motivation to support Australian football. Backing a bid that no-one realistically thinks will succeed is part of Lowy’s suspected plan, those in Soccer HQ know it will drive the agenda at the Federal level for funding for the next three years (thanks Michael Cockerill for confirmation in today’s Sydney Morning Herald). Our tax paid dollars will flow to a game that has every intention of eliminating footy from the sporting landscape in a real sense; player talent, TV rights, venues and media coverage. Of course it wont happen in the next three years, but the seed couldl be sown.
Soccer fans have been saying for the last 3 years, be afraid other football codes we’re coming, well what if fans of footy (AFL) take you at your word. A rally call based on fear has done wonders for the North Melbourne football club, it now has 24,000 members. What would the result be if an Essendon or Collingwood and their vast army of supporters went into fear mode. That is, if they were able to foresee the next ten years and realise the very fate of our game and our clubs is in our own hands.
Have AFL fans been too complacent? Essendon has approx 35,000 members year in year out, if the club was threatened and a rally call went out, it would probably get to 60,000, Collingwood is similar. Other clubs like Carlton, Richmond, etc also have massive pull. It’s a heartland thing, I’m sure Adelaide, Perth have massive non paid up members.
The Melbourne Victory have successfully drawn on AFL fans who like me don’t mind watching soccer. What if those fans who identify with Australian football as their number one preference and attach a certain cultural identity/history to the sport feel they need to choose who to support – a war and you have to pick sides.
So Millster, your a soccer fan , be honest you want your code to be number one in a generation. Where will that leave your current overly flattering assessment of the Australian football league then?.
cheers
Redb
Millster said | March 19th 2008 @ 4:01pm | Report comment
RedB – you know what, while you are probably the most passionate of the decent writers on this site (with apologies to your AFL compadre Michael C), I do take on some of your points. To be honest I think the “fear” that we all smell is equal in each camp. It wasn’t so long ago that football was a complete shambles – unable even to pay for the airfares of players to international fixtures let alone to run any kind of decent domestic competition. And while we turn to the global dominance of our code for comfort, reality ‘down under’ is that we still have a long way to go.
I don’t agree with the “general assessment” that AFL has wasted 150 years of potential geographic growth. It is a specific game grown out of specific circumstances and I for one am both mildly surprised and deeply congratulatory that such a unique game has grown into such a national cultural tradition. I’m not sucking up. I genuinely like the game and its place in the sporting landscape. It offers something quite different to football, and to the rugby codes.
And so onto your questions in your final para.
Do I want my code to be “number one in a generation”?
Yes, no, who cares… I can tell you what I want. I want to be able to watch it played at the very highest global level, mainly on TV but also through the odd live fixture. I want us to regularly and proudly represent at the World Cup, Confederations Cup, and Asian Cup finals – simply no other team sport allows for the level of national pride of competing in an overall pool that includes pretty much all of the 200+ nation-states of the globe, and that provides fixtures that cross religions, cultures, classes, and the deepest political divides (eg. USA-Iran in the group stages of WC2002, qualifiers between Nth and Sth Korea). And I want a domestic league that gives me exciting football that I can attend in person, a club I can feel part of, and an improving standard of both play and management which is tested regularly by inclusion in competitions between the clubs from our league and those of different nations.
Those things combined might make football “number one in a generation” if they are achieved. But is being number one the goal, or is it just a by-product of getting the beautiful game into the minds and hearts of people? For me it’s all about the latter, not the former – which I’ll leave to the marketeers and to the jealous types.
And where will that leave the AFL? Look who knows? But while the various major sporting markets in the world are dominated by the global, big-money, big-audience sports this has not necessarily equated with the demise of interesting, vibrant competitions in other sporting codes that are entrenched in particular geographies or cultures as “mega-niches”. I think the AFL’s future is bright as long as it is not suckered (I use that word very deliberately) into going head to head with football, or even with the two rugby codes which are GENUINELY played in other countries – albeit in both cases in a limited set.
The AFL’s major long term challenge will be junior participation and development, but even there at least we’re talking codes of ‘footy’ with some transferrability of skills and not the dilemma faced by say a talented sporting kid in the USA (choices equal the essentially untransferrable basketball, baseball or gridiron). But back to the main point, the natural forces of globalisation have heralded a world in which AFLs grasp on the #1 spot will slip away as sure as night follows day. Holding onto that measure as the definition of success is the one sure way to blow away all the success that the game has had, and to turn the AFL’s bright future (and uniqueness as a piece of Australiana) into a dusty piece of tragic history.
Michael C said | March 19th 2008 @ 4:16pm | Report comment
Okay, Rodney – I’ve accepted your challenge & had a proper look at the RL WC website:
RL top 10 includes :
PNG – around 10K registered players plus maybe 5K school kids (as per the RLWC website).
Tonga, maybe 1K, and
Samoa listing about 600 registered players age 17-21.
Fiji, about 500 regular players.
Scotland, never had a professional team.
The Irish, initially, it was ONLY Union boys playing RL over summer that gave Ireland a team, these days reliant upon fellows from Superleague eligible to represent Ireland – so the minor 3 league domestic structure (2 ‘conferences’ and a ‘elite’ league) really doesn’t provide more than a couple of squad fringe dwellers.
Even NZ – peaked once at 40K registered players, now dropped back to 22K registered players.
Is France now number 3 behind Aust and Eng? About 25K apparently, more than NZ – from a nation rated in the early 50s as the ‘best team ever’, beating Australia before a crowd of 100K. 25K. That’s less than what Tasmania have in registered AFL players.
These are not huge ‘national’ competitions. RL is minor in all but Australia and England (250K registered players in England).
THESE ARE TOP 10 RL WC ‘nations’.
What’s that say about AFL in PNG with about 10K regisered players. And the US with a couple of thousand, and Denmark with 300 or 400? Gee – suddenly there’s a couple of AFL ‘nations’ in the ball park of a RL rated top 10 nation.
Where would the RL WC be without:
A. people switching from Union
B. Expats
C. parent/grand parent links allowing representation of the ‘minnows’
—–
This is the TOP 10 of RL. Oh, yeah, and Australia.
So – there’s Australia and England, and then daylight to the rest of the world maybe equating to 80K all up.
If that is what it takes to provide a ‘international’ game and a World Cup – well, the AFL may as well have a crack at it. (not that I WANT an international game in that context or a farcical world cup.)
however – the AFL DOES NOT have the luxury of being able to bolster numbers with Union converts.
And so, the AFL – currently probably more is working to maintain the dominant ‘global’ professional position relative to……
…the GAA and Gaelic. Because, the AFL MUST at least do all possible to ensure that it’s players aren’t poached by other codes.
So, Rodney – I presume then, – we’re agreed – that, because half the ‘nations’ in the RL WC top 10 are no better than half the nations in the AFL top 10 – that the RL WC must surely be a farce. Run a ‘top 4′ tournament, Aust, NZ, France and England and leave it at that. Because, now I realise the follow of any claim of ‘reasonableness’ associated with making the RL top 10.
Look, I love my cricket – but I was so over the UAE team in the WC a couple of times, all ex-pats/iimports from other countries, and Jon DAvison for Canada etc. Just plain silly. Although, at least at test level you need the 3 year residential qualification.
It’s a fine line – trying to bolster the minnows talent level balanced with actually providing opportunity for the REAL competitors IN the minnow home country/competitons.
Westy said | March 19th 2008 @ 4:25pm | Report comment
Redb…….What is this war…..you write articles on the Age AFL site you can be as biased as you like but this is a multi sport site. North of the border there is a healthier attitude to a number of sports. I am personally sick of all this war talk to elicit emotive defensive responses. There are a large number of people north of Albury Wadonga who do not simply accept AFL as the sole sporting embodiment of Australian culture. It is that simple. I for one have no problem in the AFL starting an AFL team in Western Sydney. Anyone who is willing to spend so much money in my region is very welcome . Simply make your points and cut the war talk. AFL is one of the sporting codes in Australia. It is very well run . I will watch a game live now and then , appreciate some skillful players but sadly find it not great for television. Its just my opinion. However I would very much find Australian sporting culture the poorer if viable rugby, league , football and basketball competitions did not exist as well as AFL. I follow state cricket closely. The dominance of AFL in Victoria is hurting Victorian junior cricket. This is not a criticism of the AFL just a consequenceof its success. The same is very evident in South Australia which is further worsened by its declining birth rate and aging population. The calibre of athlete avilable to NSW cricket is higher and deeper than Victoria and SA. There are people north of the border and some in Victoria who take great pride in the efforts of the Socceroos, Wallabies and Kangaroos but have no idea of who Richo or Richmond is nor do they care. They are as Australian as any Aussie Rules supporter and have as deep a committment to this nation. It is not war it is respect. Most sporting coaches of the various codes watch the others simply because their are transferable skills and strategies. Watching ” some” AFL teams passing the ball backwards and across then backwards is as boring as any overly defensive game of league or football or penalty ridden rugbty match. I do not have to pick sides. Nsw and QLD appreciate good skills but do not need AFL to define their character or existence nor does any Australian. More Australian soldiers sailors and airman have come from non AFL backgrounds . They do not need it to enhance their identity as AUstralians.
Redb said | March 19th 2008 @ 4:33pm | Report comment
Millster,
Thanks for your considered thoughts.
cheers
Redb
Rodney said | March 19th 2008 @ 4:42pm | Report comment
Clarkey, i’ll post back later as I have some things to do now and some beer later.
Cheers.
Michael C said | March 19th 2008 @ 4:50pm | Report comment
Rodney -
I am still not Clarkey!!!!!!
Beer o’clock this end too, and calf twinge which means training is out of the question. At my age a calf twinge might put everything out of the question.
Pura Cup – Vics got clobbered, but, at least entertained going at just under 5 an over for 77 overs. Alas, that 2nd day when they had the game relatively at their mercy and they faltered from 2-100 lots.
Towser said | March 19th 2008 @ 5:34pm | Report comment
Redb
Personally I have no interest in Australian Rules if it lives or dies I dont care . But in the Southern states it is obviously part of their history and some people such as yourself do.
As a football fan and Frank Lowy is one too remember through his family a generational thing as expressed by AFL fans also, so you should understand where hes coming from. Because he was born elsewhere doesn’t make his passion for the game in Australia any different from Johnny Warrens when he was still alive.
Talk of domination is a paranoia in your own mind. What is happening is that Football has at last got its act together. Being Australians we want to be the best in a sport ,or in the case of football because of its global spread, at least to be in the top 20 nations on the planet. To do this we have to compete with nations where the game is a religion ,therefore we cannot sit back on our laurels and expect this to be delivered on a platter its hard work.
It will take many years of consistent clever planning coaching and street wise smarts on a global level. Fortunately for football fans the FFA is being run by a man who understands whats needed to expand globally having done it through his Business(Remember FL tried to implement his visionary ideas nearly 30 years ago and failed .Why because the time wasn’t right for many reasons).
When I and other long term football fans sit down and review whats happening in football do we consider thas it will upset AFL folk? Of course not no more than we would consider the book reading class down the street.
What scares me and Frank Lowy is lack of success on the park and therefore lack of momentum for the game.
Will the Chinese have put one over us by playing in Kunming at altitude next week ,having been there since March 1st in a training camp,whereas most of our boys arrive there on the Monday before the Wednesday game. Or what players will be injured for their club this weekend.
Theres a million other things to worry about in football than other sports.
If it affects other sports in the end(which I dont see for AFL unless they dont play to their strengths as Millster said) then its not footballs fault that we have to compete with the whole world to be on top of our game.
Redb said | March 19th 2008 @ 9:12pm | Report comment
Towser,
Thanks for your views. I couldn’t disagree more.
cheers
Redb
Michael C said | March 20th 2008 @ 9:36am | Report comment
Towser -
how did that comment relate to the topic? What, simply that Soccer fundamentalists don’t have any regard for any other sport.
Oh gosh, we realise that already, there certainly are soccer folk who live and breath it 24/7, 365 days a year. We feel sorry for them – that they seem overly willing to even deny the Olympics – because the FIFA WC is bigger………such a biggest is best mentality.
Which – point of all this – reminds me of someone who ran through the numbers of effectively how many registered players across the world each player in the top 4 leagues represents. Which, makes me suggest that should India and China ever come on board ‘proper’ as soccer nations – Australia may as well give up – the numbers will be so totally against us.
But – your hope is that it’s NOT PURELY a numbers game. Which is what we always hope for in what ever sport we follow – and, that’s why we who follow AFL for example hope to heck that Australian soccer can get a bit more efficient with it’s talent pathways etc and somehow become a little more successful…….but, our reservation is that we don’t want soccer gaining an inch to suddenly see it explode miles away as almost the sole sport in this country. We love our AFL – but, love to follow a broad spectrum of sports – it seems there’s a fair proportion of myopic ’soccer’ followers – and they’re the ones that we resent – and if too many of those ascend to power – it ensures there is and will be a ‘war’ in the market place.
And, so, back to the thread – the AFL has to become more robust. If that means that PNG which is almost level pegging with RL now for registered players – so, if PNG comes ‘on line’ as a recruiting zone. Then, that ads greater depth and an added dimension.
Beyond that seems much less certain. I’d hope that you at least would be able to take a broader view and wish us luck – rather than just denigrate the game as a curiousity from the southern states.
Towser said | March 20th 2008 @ 12:59pm | Report comment
Michael C
Merely a reply to Redb re his belief that there is a plot against AFL by the hierachy of football which is on topic as it relates to the games(AFL’s) ability to expand.
Even if the subject was off topic, given your past history in trolling on genuine football blogs isn’t that a severe case of the pot calling the kettle black?
Michael C said | March 20th 2008 @ 2:54pm | Report comment
For the Record – number 1.
(this is part of providing perspective of Aust Footy overseas – keeping mindful that some top 10 RLWC contenders represent local associations of around 1000, give or take. Roughly the equivalent of what one might expect from a reasonable size country city.)
Aust Football in Canada.
Canadian Australian Football League founded in 1989
Registered players presently
about 525 adult, 300 juniors
Leagues
Ontario AFL
North West Pacific FL
North Delta Junior AFL
Clubs
Calgary Kangaroos
Calgary Bears
Calgary Kookaburras
Red Deer Magpies
Burnaby Eagles
Vancouvar Cougars
Victoria Lions
Broadview Hawks
Ottawa Swans
Etobicoke Kangaroos
Guelph Gargoyles
Hamilton Wildcats
High Park Demons
Lakeshore Rebels
Toronto Downtown Dingos
Toronto Eagles Toronto
Central Blues
London Stallions
More information:
Participation trend:
In 2006, there were over 420 senior (approximately 250 Canadian national) Australian rules football players in Canada out of a total of 484, an increase of 25% from 2005.[2][3]
By the end of 2007, this figure had increased to a total of 825 players in organised competitions, of which 525 were senior and 300 were junior, an increase of over 70% from 2006, and a total of 95% increase over 2 years.
a little note re. the NW Delta Juniors:
The North Delta Junior Australian Football League was started in 2003 by Mike Macfarlane. Mike was coaching a boys soccer team at the time, and asked the kids if they would like to learn how to play Australian Football. The kids loved it, so Mike decided to put together this league, and it’s been growing by leaps and bounds ever since!
NOW – if that last paragraph doesn’t give hope to Aust Footy types that US/Canada isn’t a region worth attempting to cultivate – then nothing else would.
—-
and in Canada, the Canadian Rugby League has collapsed and is attempting to relaunch as “Rugby League in Canada”, because, we all know how important a name change is………
Towser said | March 20th 2008 @ 3:43pm | Report comment
Michael C
How about really putting that into perspective.
There are also(from 2005 so could be more now) 543,390 registerd Ice Hockey players and 841,466 registered football/soccer players. If Canada struggles in International football to make its mark with that many players, then Joe has got it right because theres no way with such a small pool of players the AFL will be getting any return on its investment this century to put into expansion. Better to consolidate here, because all these programs in other countries cost money for what appears to be in comparison with other sports a miniscule return on dollars invested.
As has been explained by Millster it is pointless the AFL spreading its wings in the broader world and competing with Football. Its a losing battle ,as indicated by the numbers for football in Canada acheived in a non traditional country for the sport purely and simply from being the “World Game” (and having a truly global World Cup)whether you consider the term cliched or not.
Michael C said | March 20th 2008 @ 4:02pm | Report comment
Towser -
I have just read a reply on the NRL’s new battle plan thread that does NOT dispute only 1000 in Tonga, or Canada back at the drawing board etc. And, the point stressed – you have to start somewhere.
In Canada – THAT IS SOMEWHERE, and it’s a start. By comparison to some of the RL ‘top 10/20′ countries with a 6 team league. This is the perspective.
What investment has the AFL put into Canada in recent times. Sure, a couple of exhibition games were held back in the 80’s, one in Toronto drew 32K. Stuff all since then.
These programs in other countries, such as Canada – ARE NOT AFL funded – the AFL has steered well away from just gifting money – the dominant level of help now as a ‘global body’ – which is only a ‘role’ the AFL has ‘accepted’ recently – is more around advisory input. You seem to have a mis-perception that the AFL has been instigating these developments. It hasn’t. It’s been ex-pats and locals.
The facts in Canada of percentage increase and the relative number of locals are such that there is a relative (small) niche slowly developing.
The question now for the AFL is how can it best assist to ensure that there isn’t stagnation.
btw – so, you’re saying Canadians are useless at sport – well, yeah, they don’t do that much in the Commonwealth games even, do they?
Now – it’s been explained the AFL is wasting it’s time and resources in NSW and QLD, or, you suggest to consolidate there – I do believe they are doing that. Consolidating there.
Why do you say the AFL is competing with ‘football’ in somewhere like Canada. The AFL in a sense is competing with every other sport – as is ’soccer’. That’s a given. What’s the difference? Why should that stop anybody.
As long as the AFL come across kids who want a bit more excitement than is offered by soccer, and a bit more ball play than is offered by Rugby(both) and Grid Iron and a little more general fitness or a little more athletic diversity etc – - there are plenty of reasons that might be argued that there actually IS a need for an Aust Footy type game to fill the niche between soccer and Rugby/Grid Iron.
And the AFL needs to insure it’s Aust Footy, and not Gaelic (I saw a quote recently that International Rules is too much like Gaelic and really is only interesting because it’s how Soccer SHOULD be played!!!).
Redb said | March 20th 2008 @ 4:07pm | Report comment
Towser,
The AFL is not throwing heaps of money at Canada. The game expanded organicially through Australian expats. Much like I’m sure when European expats/migrants took soccer to their new homes over the past 5 decades. Of course in much greater numbers.
The AFL in an official sense is giving it a nudge, nothing more.
cheers
Redb
Millster said | March 20th 2008 @ 4:55pm | Report comment
Towser – while I’m on the football side of this debate (that’s soccer to you MC!) and agree with some of what you’ve written, don’t put words in my mouth.
I never said AFL’s spreading its wings was pointless.
Indeed as an enjoyable cultural “cool and different thing to do” I am not surprised, and altogether welcoming, of little pockets of AFL occurring in different countries – both playing and watching the game. I think it’s cool that people involved in AFL are spread far and wide. Just as I think its cool for small competitions of ice hockey, grid-iron, lacrosse, etc to happen here. In the rapidly homogenising “global village” that we now have thanks to communications technologies, I LOVE little bits of unique culture when they pop up.
My point is a bit different. Its that AFL should not compete head to head with football, using the same measures of success. Neither globally now, nor probably even in Australia if you go 10 years into the future. But I say that NOT because I want football to “win” (I guess I’m safe knowing that even if it dies in Australia I’ll still have my favoured European teams o follow) but in fact because I don’t want AFL to “lose” so badly that it is fatally wounded. It has a place and I want it to survive as I enjoy it for what it’s worth. Same for League and Union.
As I’ve written many times before, THIS DOES NOT HAVE TO BE A WAR FOR US SPECTATORS. For administrators, marketers and to some extent journos, it is about being one-eyed and protecting the interests of the code that pays your bills. But for little old me, until I become chairman of either the FFA or the FFF at least, the world would be a shitter place if I could not support my Saints, my Chooks, and my Brumbies in those few minutes of the week not devoted to SFC and PSG.
Towser said | March 20th 2008 @ 5:35pm | Report comment
Michael C
Anybody who steps into the global arena from their own backyardfor a ‘Slice of the pie” is competing against football.
Never said the Canadians are useless at sport. Your words not mine
Just stated a fact that with that many players they’ve made little impact on world football.
Redb and Michael C
As for the money aspect ie not being funded by the AFL then surely it makes it a more futile exercise in relation to the AFL’s expansion plans as it will only be(From what your telling me) a plaything and hobby for expatriates.
Would agree though that if you are comparing numbers with the Delusionary RLWC: Well you have a point.
Millster
You still seem to me to be saying the same thing that I thought you said before so if you dont like me interpreting or using you as a previous oracle I’ll stay clear as I thought we were on the same wavelength.
The last thing I would want to do is drop you in it.
Personal i see this more a debate about perspective and reality and as a football fan I know how rapid the sport is expanding globally with little expense on the behalf of FIFA I might add.
American football with many times the resources of the AFL and a greater world reach in terms of exposure through American popular culture has spent probably hundreds of millions trying to expand with little impact.
You may not want the AFL to lose so badly that it is fatally wounded but that is a strong possibility if it pursues a global ideology.
Unless your football it costs big dollars to promote yourself in the wider world.
Anyway Happy Easter.
Pity the eggs aren’t round.
Jason Andrew Toppin said | March 21st 2008 @ 8:19pm | Report comment
AFL could be international later rather than sooner – ‘could’ is the operative word.
westy said | March 22nd 2008 @ 8:37pm | Report comment
Michael C…..I do not know about Canada but I do go to Papua New Guinea semi regularly. League as you may say is not that international but our Prime Minister did not bring an AFL jumper to Prime Minister Somare on his recent experience but a Queensland state of Origin jumper. Somare’s reply was he follows the Blues. I can asure you our Dept. of Foreign Affairs would have checked to see which was the major code there. On three recent visits I have seen some Auskick but no oganised adult competition. I saw three games of adult League part of a deeper competitive competition. The league does not count its try league or mini games programmes as registered players. Nor do I recall a Prime Minister’s AFL team play ing the national Papuan New Guinean side before a full house in Port Moresby. I am glad the AFL is trying to help in PapuaNew Guinea. What I do object to is the bullshit. One day AFL maybe NO1 in Papua New Guinea its just when you compare numbers compare apples with apples. It is misleading in the extreme to compare registered teenage/adult competition players playing full contact in double round competitions between districts with very short term Auskick registered players . League actually has divisions the AFL none. Start doing this here and I start to have doubts about the rest.
westy said | March 22nd 2008 @ 8:57pm | Report comment
Michael c.. If I can put it this simply on my last visits and conversations with people in Port and Wewak I have never been asked to bring/send AFL jumpers but have been pressed for League tops ,jerseys etc. . Have you been there?….It seems to me league is liked there …. I must have been mixing with the wrong people again. …..
Rodney said | March 23rd 2008 @ 5:29am | Report comment
RL is also a 12 month a year sport in PNG, the only country like it in the world for a footy code.
sheek said | March 23rd 2008 @ 8:52am | Report comment
Just as a useless bit of info, I was 6 & living in Bogia, PNG (midway between Madang & Wewak) in 1962. Michael Somare was a student teacher at the local primary school. I don’t remember, but my folks told me this was so. I was one of about 3 whites in the whole school!
Growing up later in Madang, we played Soccer & AFL. The primary school there was like a united nations, we had kids from every state in Australia, plus USA, Canada, NZ, Wales, Holland, Germany, polynesians, chinese & natives. Birthday parties were like attending a world fair.
Later, living in Port Moresby while boarding in Sydney, we played rugby union at school in Oz, but rugby league during school hols. We had our own state-of-origin. NSW boarders versus Qld boarders, before the idea took off in Oz.
Consequently, I grew up liking all 4 footy codes. As the French say, “Vive la difference”. However, where the history is concerned, we should be aware of those trying to twist it.
League in Australia started in 1907, & their first games were under union rules, & there’s nothing wrong with that. AFL as an organisation, began in 1858, but their first games were also rugby union, & there’s nothing wrong with that either.
It’s absurd to think that the sports we see today, just magically appeared in tact all those years ago. It’s an evolutionary thing.
Midfielder said | March 23rd 2008 @ 10:29am | Report comment
TO ALL and I am sure the Roar will join me in saying this.
Congratulations to Jade North, Australian Football’s first indeginous captain.
Further on the PNG thing, they (PNG) actually play football agianst other Island nations, and when it comes to the sport they play internationally its football. These inter island matches are matters of great national pride.
RL however I admit is seen as a major sport inPNG and everyone has a NRL team, I worked on developing some mining ventures and league is held in very high regrad, ……………………….but football is also up there and played and there international matches are taken as national pride does not get much press in OZ……………..two things going against it…………first its football………………….second it not Australia.
Redb said | March 23rd 2008 @ 4:05pm | Report comment
Midfielder,
Jake who? and the relevance to AFL expansion is?
Westy, I think you right about rugby league as it stands today. Aussie Rules was very big in PNG and North Qld for that matter in the 1970s, but didn’t follow though with development and RL through geography more than anything seized the initative. The AFL didn’t begin any expansion/development from southern Australia and sloppy at that, until 1981. It has only been in recent years that the AFL has started to develop again in the far north and PNG (except Darwin). I would have to do more research on current playing numbers as I’m sure Michael C has, so anecdotally you are probably right over the past 15 years RL has been more dominant, but it wasn’t always the case and junior numbers in AFL have picked again due to the work of QAFL, Brisbane Lions and Mal Michael,etc.
cheers
Redb
Crosscoder said | March 23rd 2008 @ 7:53pm | Report comment
To try and suggest as Michael C does that the registered numbers playing AFL in PNG are equal to rl is blatant nonsense.Does the AFL include Auskick and schools?,I doubt rl does.Rugby league IS the national sport of PNG.Kevin Rudd knows it,John Howard knew it, Peter Beattie knew it,any one who has visited that country knows it,and anyone who has watched(on TV) a match involving an Australian rugby league team against the Papuans knows it. Rugby league players such as the likes of Mal Meninga are treated like gods in that country.
Devlopment people in Victoria have been to many schools in Victoria,showing thousands of students rugby league.Are we to assume there are nowthousands of registered rugby league players in that state?No.
PNG will be playing in the RLWC08 ,and if they somehow perform a miracle could be playing against the Kangaroos rl team.
Michael C also off handedly suggests that the Irish teams and Scottish teams are expats or ex union players.At least 5 players must have played in their country’s local competitions ,to be included in the national squad.The others can come from the ESL. He appears to have little idea as to the pace of rugby league development,throughout the UK,more so in London,Scotland and Wales..
He ignores the fact that France has a pro rugby league team already Les Catalans in the ESL,they would like to have another Toulouse ,as would a Welsh team the Celtic Crusaders.He needs to keep up to date with developments more so in France.
i am not going to argue whether AFL has or hasn’t developed their game overseas.The simple fact they cannot at this point in time and for a while yet I would assume,play tests against any other country except Ireland(with bastardised rules).
Redb said | March 23rd 2008 @ 8:14pm | Report comment
Crosscoder,
Well this article has been bastardised by several posters with nothing else better to do than try and bring AFl down and promote their own code. But that’s Ok, just don’t sook when we come after you in your patch.
Australian football has only really made any inroads in the last ten years and from a small expat driven base. What is surprising and pleasing if your an Australian football fan is that a little piece of Australia is being taken up by many nationaliities, nothing more, nothing less.
An international Cup is being played in Melbourne and Warrnambool in August this year. No expats are allowed to play for their adopted country, only nationals. Americans, Japanese, Danes, Kiwis, Brits, Canadians,etc all playing Australian football.
cheers
Redb
Crosscoder said | March 23rd 2008 @ 9:04pm | Report comment
RedB
At last reports your code has been in our patch for 100 years and had and AFL team for 20 plus years.Don’t see anyone sooking for heaven’s sake.BTW of course the Vic media and AFL fans don’t try and deride rugby league when the opportunity arises LOL! We had one media clown in Vic state the Storm would be lucky to get 3,000 to their matches.we have heard Demetriou’s comments at times and Fitzpatrick stating the Titans were lucky on the Gold coast.
Read what I said.I have nothing against what AFL is doing here or overseas,last I heard most countries are democracies. They can play underwater hockey if they so wish.
Rugby league has only really made decent inroads in the last 10 years,since a little thing called the super league war.It has b…all media support in Victoria,yet is making inroads in that state.It has little in the way of finance ,yet it has grown and started comps in many new countries in the main by locals and the odd expat.
Oh and it will be back in Perth again in the not to distant future,in one of Demetriou’s patches.
Joe O'Sullivan said | March 23rd 2008 @ 9:06pm | Report comment
Redb
You may not believe me but I am quite happy to see other nationals taking up Australia’s game. Just don’t make something out of it that its not.
For you & Michael C let me re-cast my original post from the reverse side.
You may or may not be aware that American football & ice hockey are played in Sydney ( & probably other parts of Aus ). When would you seriously expext a best avaible Aust representative American football team to play the US national team composed of the cream of the NFL or an Aust ice hockey team to qualify for the winter olympics? 10 yrs, 110 yrs, never? My vote in both cases is never but feel free to disagree.
I’m quite sure that the AFL is entirely uninterested in these games assuming they’re even remotely aware of them. ( Redb – am I now trolling on behalf of the AFL? )
So why would aussie rules in foreign lands be any more successful than American football & ice hockey in Aust? There might be a real reason to believe it could be so but nothing you or Michael C have said to date support this hope.
P.S. Did you see the photo & caption in yesterday’s ( Sat 22nd ) SMH page 4?
Midfielder said | March 23rd 2008 @ 10:28pm | Report comment
Redb
Jade North is the right full back and captain for the Newcastle Jets A-Leagur Football club, and has represented Australia a number of times. Also he has this afternoon been choosen to go the the world cup qualifer against China on Wen night at 7:30 .
On Saturday night when Harry Kwell was rested in the second half the captains arm band was given to Jade. Thus Jade became Australian Football’s first indeginous captain all I was doing was saying congratulations as I feel a little bit of Australian Sporting History has been made, and was sharing it no more realy.
Does this have anything to do with the AFL expansion plans ……..not directly…………but indirectly could by way of player movernments, and that all Australians play football……………………lets not start a fight here as many AFL players are of an indeginous background I read somewhere about 7%, also I ACCEPT & RESPECT the AFL is open to anyone who turns up to play of this there is no question. ……………However football has a broader in every way ethnic base…….and this does get seen overseas.
But agian please do not think in any way I am trying to say the AFL has barriers of entry as I am not and the AFL is to be appluaded for its work across the broader Australian community generally.
Rodney said | March 24th 2008 @ 1:49am | Report comment
I remember during the A League GF post match show, they said, (Simon Hill I think) the Newcastle Jets Captain is the first Indigenous captain of any Aus code to win a GF.
I guess they never heard of Big Authur Beeston from the Eastern Suburb Roosters who won GF’s in the 70’s as captain/Coach and who also Captained his country in 2 WC’s.
Redb said | March 24th 2008 @ 8:20am | Report comment
Crosscoder,
I’m happy to walk this little chat over the to the NRL battle Ground article as your comments are more suited there. The Melb Storm are owned by News Ltd publisher of the Melbourne Herald Sun – nuff said.
Joe,
Well i’m not sure I’ve made any broad statements about Australian football’s imminent explosion across the planet. Maybe some here are just a little too sensitive about ANY suggestion that Australian football is being played overseas. In one country, notably South Africa, there is even a junior program underway. There are some 50 Australian football teams in the USA.
If your interested, go to the website ‘World Footy News’. If your not, then why are you and others even making a comment.
cheers
Redb
Crosscoder said | March 24th 2008 @ 9:50am | Report comment
RedB
That is cynically very generous of you,unfortunately the Storm is relevant when we are talking about expansion in any code whether national or International>Why? Because the Storm(owned by the largest wealthiest media organistaion in the world ) has recently played against another rugby league team from another country(England) on the opposite side of the globe .The same media organisation(via Fox) that will be televising some of the RLWC08 games.The same media organistaion that own 50% of the NRL ATM,get used to it.
When AFL has contests like that,then expansion has really hit the jackpot.Every code including gridiron is played in many countries,but the US don’t play the Aust gridiron team in any contest .
The thread was AFL intnl expansion won’t happen soon,I am giving my view that it won’t happen soon based on competitiveness. Yes it will grow like other codes.I am sure the international event at Warnambool won’t be including the best of the “All Australian” team.
Reading some of the ridiculous articles and comments (on Sydney radio as an example and the press) Barassi and Sheedy came up with not that long ago,you get the impression that AFL is taking over the world .It is maybe them that should be their gobs a break.
You make the point why should we comment on supposedly something we know little about 1) because its a democracy 2). because some of us have been involved in sport locally and watched it internationally at times .3) because some of us have travelled and watched sports overseas and how they have developed.
Joe O'Sullivan said | March 24th 2008 @ 11:47am | Report comment
Redb
I comment for the same reasons you do. Its a free world ( you told us so ) & I’m exercising my right to do so.
Redb said | March 24th 2008 @ 6:07pm | Report comment
Crosscoder/Joe,
Feel free to comment, but this article is in resposne to anoter by Michael C in relation to the AFL in Canada, so it is the continuing negativity towards any mention of AFL.
Maybe people are getting toey at the thought there coudl be any overseas presence of Australian football.
Sorry but it totallty unimpressive that Melb Storm are owned by a big media outlet. Its this soul-less entity that has turned off the very people that it is attempting to garner support. I think jsut under 11,000 went the Storm game yesterday, gee I didn’t think the premiership hangover would extend to crowd su;port!
Plenty of traditional rugby league supporters are turned off by News Ltd’s involvement. Heard of Superleague, yeah that did wonders for the NRl, we are quaking in our boots at the appeal of the Storm v Leeds game – what a dud.
at least the AFL is not totally betroved to the idiot box, people actually go to our games and members sign up to clubs.
the NRL is playing chase up football in both those regards – the real support.
cheers
Redb
Crosscoder said | March 24th 2008 @ 7:27pm | Report comment
RedB
Gee glad you gave us permission to comment.How Tibetan of you.Yeah we are getting toey LOL, that AFL is the major code in Nauru or it is bigger in numbers in the US ATM.I have already stated and it sure as hell is hard to get through,that any code has the right to expand overseas.But please don’t make out as Sheedy does ,that it is huge and will be in China (just like all that Super league bullsh*t).You and Clarkey appear to be drinking from the same bottle.
If you know anything about Olympic Park,it is a pig sty(3rd world) of a ground end of story.The 20,000 at the T Dome 1 week earlier reinforces that argument.Funny BTW that the Swans for many years were lucky to crack 20,000 and on quite a few occasions less than 10,000 with all the media support and PR wank.The 33,000 at the Storm semi last year,were all cardboard cutouts according to your logic.
Should they get crowds of 11,000 in the new purpose built stadium when they are near the top,then you have an argument.
You speak for plenty of traditional supporters do you?I happen to be one,and whilst I did not like the war,I am over it,as are most of them I know. The NRL crowds and junior participation are the highest on record ,stuffing that theory.Super league gave your code the biggest leg up possible In NSW and Qld, Yet the Tv ratings for your code are tres ordinaire still.As the saying goes AFL had the opportunity to make hay when the sun shone in 1995/7 SL war,the harvest ended up being not that great.
AFL is not betrothed to the idiot box! One of your best LOL,without the $780m(wedding gift) provided by ch7 and 10,thanks to Kerry Packer making them pay a motza,your mob wouldn’t be able to do what Demetriou babbles on about.Without the motza,there would be little talk of West Sydney at present.
The NRL is playing chase up in term of TV ratings? You are joking.Ask Pay Tv moguls and FTA including regionals.The AFL has pushed into all states,the NRL is only just starting in the AFL states.Victoria really pushing only from 2007.
The fact that you are unimpressed by News Ltd owning 50% of the NRL,is not going to make me lose any sleep.That they are putting there own money into rl development in Victoria,not just the Storm may have you a little miffed. That I am not a great fan of News Ltd ,they are at least putting money onto the game.
Redb said | March 24th 2008 @ 7:40pm | Report comment
Crosscoder,
to conduct a debate, you at least have to refer to my points correctly.
“The NRL is playing chase up in term of TV ratings? You are joking” – never mentioned TV ratings, I mentioned specificially crowds and club membership.
If you want to have a debate in your own head off you go, you can provide all the argument, counter-argument you like.
cheers
Redb
Crosscoder said | March 24th 2008 @ 8:15pm | Report comment
RedB
Suggest when you make an ordinary attempt to lecture someone on debating,you also don’t conveniently ignore points made by your opponent,such as the points on Olympic Park,crowds at the T Dome.It makes your good points(which I generously concede) on membership and crowds ,appear rather less flattering.
Being selective is the domain of the AFL obsessed Victorian media,don’t fall into the same trap.
Otherwise to put it nicely,you are squirting into the wind,and only servicing your ego.
Redb said | March 25th 2008 @ 12:08am | Report comment
Crosscoder,
Olympic Park’s capacity is suitable for the bore that is the Melbourne Storm. But to address your point, Melbourne Victory also started at Olympic Park, but were able to successfully transition to Telstra Dome within two seasons.
Two crowds at Telstra Dome of 33,000 and 20,000 in ten years. Yes impressive it is (yoda), not. But what happended this week, back to 11,000, why? Olympic parks fault? No, the Melb Victory demonstrated they had enough crowd support to move to a bigger venue, the Storm have not.
Rugby league has such a tiny presence in Victoria. The AFL is much bigger in NSW – there is no comparison and only a fool would suggest otherwise. Nationally, the AFL is in each capital city, where is the NRL in Adelaide and Perth?
cheers
Redb
Rodney said | March 25th 2008 @ 7:40am | Report comment
Where’s the AFL in Australia’s capital Redb?
What about Tas and the NT, are they represented too?
The Storm have been around 16 years less then the Swines and 10 less than the Lions, I seem to remember some truly awful crowds for both those teams before the SL war, and some of the crowds were defiantly BS, the Storm are doing well compared to both those clubs when you compare them, the AFL teams have had FTA TV every weekend since they have played in their home states, the Storm have done everything on their own without any help from any TV station.
23 million will be spent on junior developement from this year for the Melbourne Storm, we’ll see how they are in a few years.
The TYC has about 6 local Vics playing already, you really need to take the blinkers off and stop listening to the ANTI every other sport pro AFL media in Victoria.
Crosscoder said | March 25th 2008 @ 8:17am | Report comment
Says a lot for Melburnianswho watched that “boring” team the storm in the Grand final on TV,in excess of the NSW viewers who watched the AFL G/F.
If you are a Melburnian and you sound like one of those indoctrinated tragics,you would be aware or should be, that soccer has been well entrenched in that state for decades(unlike rugby league with little grassroots support ATT).It is therefore surprsing that they at times could not sell out OP,and they secured far better crowds at the Dome.Additionally the soccer is in the AFL off season doh.It wouldn’t hurt to know a little about demographics eg the italian and Greek population in Melbpourne.
You still don’t get it,a dilapidated stadium on an ordinary Easter Sunday,a relatively new code with little media support.The Storm mgt itself wasn’t expecting much more than that.Due to NRL matches only being allocated 5 weeks in advance ,and with AFL already having the T Dome matches allocated,the Storm would have little room or time to move .
Funny the AFL on the Gold Coat(AFL heartland we are told) could crack only 11,000 at Carrara,with all those southerners that have migrated there.
The Storm have had on the other odd occasions they played at the Dome crowds in excess of 18, and 21,000 so the facilities do make a difference in terms of crowd numbers.Ask your mob who used to play at the dilapidated home grounds of the various clubs,they now with one or two exceptions play at the t Dome and the G.Why? Better facilities give better crowds.
Did I suggest the presence of AFL in NSW was smaller than the presence of rl in Victoria?.You have had over 100 years in NSW for heavens sake,rl in Victoria about 10 years.Yet the vast majority of NSWelshmen couldn’t give a rats.
I repeat one of your point for behind reporters,gleefully predicted in 1998,the Storm would be lucky to get 3,000 average.
RL is now getting into the schools in that state,new clubs such as the Wangaratta Tigers and Wodonga were formed last year as an example.At the same time at last 5 homegrown players from Vic are in the Toyota under 20s comp.
We will stick to the tried and true ways for development in a hostile environment.
You are presently and I use the term presently correct on WA and SA,however rest assured Perth will be back I when the next expansion plans are announced.The growth in WA is far greater than the NRL expected without having an NRL team.
In all states! is Hobart not a capital city or the National Capital (in which the NRL has a team) important.The NRL has a team on the Gold Coast which will be one of the biggest cities in Oz,in the future .How is the AFL team in NZ going BTW ?
Redb said | March 25th 2008 @ 8:46am | Report comment
Please try and keep to the point, stop inventing issues and spoiling/trolling for a fight. This is the Roar and we expect a better standard of comments.
thanks
Redb
Michael C said | March 25th 2008 @ 8:58am | Report comment
re Joe O’Sullivan.
EXACTLY right. The level of AFL in most countries is akin to something like Ice Hockey in Australia. For most Australians they’d respond with ‘We have a team????’. Not problem with that.
The fact though is that the next Wayne Gretzky could be playing Ice Hockey in Sydney – and the key is for the NHL to somehow spread their talent identification ‘tentacles’ – - – or not. To them, it may not matter so much. However, baseball in Australia probably would not survive if not for the fact that a dribble of players get through, more so to the minor leagues, but, we’ve produced a couple of major league baseballers. That incentive, as well, as a less competitive path to national representation that for example cricket. (that, and the Olympics helps – how much, I’m not sure.).
To the AFL. It may not matter so much – - or, it may, when 2 new teams are being introduced in the next 5-10 years and if ever there would be a suitable prevailing ‘climate’ for such to happen – then this is the time.
It may be that John James from PNG being selected in the QLD Under 18 squad will be the first ‘true international’ (i.e. learning all his early footy overseas).
And, so, if locals are able to consider themselves a chance of being recruited – as well as perhaps having a relatively ‘easy’ pathway to represent their country – then, there’s everychance Aust Footy will continue to develop and consolidate in countries (more so, cities, suburbs, regions) were it IS doing so at present. (and we can say that because by RL WC standards, we have several ‘AFL’ countries that are comparable at least to half of the nations competing in the 2008 RL WC).
However – as both Redb and I have pointed out – Aust Footy overseas is mainly a curiousity to a very small number of Aust Footy fans aware of it.
Since when have we indicated anything other??
—–
btw -
is it fair to assume this is ‘retribution’ for stating an opinion that Australia could never hope to be a real chance for hosting the FIFA WC until at earliest 2034???
Joe O'Sullivan said | March 25th 2008 @ 9:16am | Report comment
Michael C
You know what they say about assuming – it makes an ass out of you & me. Believe it or not I was unaware of the “2034″ opinion & indeed I would agree that its probably more likely than 2018.
Michael C said | March 25th 2008 @ 9:18am | Report comment
btw -
Storm vs MVFC.
True – soccer has a longer and broader ‘base’ in Melbourne. More people follow AFL AND soccer. Soccer is played out of season, out of phase, with the AFL.
However,
the average Melb Storm home crowd in 2007 – a premiership year with the likes of Matt King, Israel something, the most exciting new talent, Greg Inglis, the most exciting new talent from the year before, Billy Slater etc – - a year in which every ex-pat NSW and QLD and Kiwi should be doing their utmost to get out and see possibly the best line up going around (anywhere in the ‘world’) – - and
the average is under 12,000. Twice dipped below 10K. Struggled to top 14K.
by comparison,
season 1 – MVFC – 9 games, avg 14.6K.
including crowds of 18K twice. Only dipped below 11K once, but not below 10K.
season 2 – MVFC – 3 gamesl, avg 16.3K.
Obviously, MVFC was outgrowing the venue – and in season 2, for 8 games at TD, averaged 32K.
The reality is that – yes, the venue is crappy – but, head to head in winter – Storm have a way to go to prove that they will out grow the venue. There are obvious reasons why the Storm can’t afford to have a full ‘crack’ at TD for a season. Firstly, being an AFL venue it’d be too hard to gain access – especially when the NRL might prefer – and the stadium deal would probably sink the Storm financially.
However, for them – they can be thankful that the new rectangular stadium is coming – and then there will be no excuses.
And Melb – always regarded as the worlds 2nd biggest Greek city. There’s certainly a fair Italian and Greek population. What? Don’t they like Rugby?
Crosscoder –
why this apparent need for a ‘national’ competition to have a team in NZ??
btw – it is a little silly to ’separate’ at all times RL from RU – rather than Rugby per se. Rugby has been in Victoria for a long, long time. And, the main lesson of the RL WC and RL expansion in many countries is you start with a Rugby (Union) base, and, convert them to League – give them a national jumper and call it successful expansion.
Rodney said | March 25th 2008 @ 9:22am | Report comment
Michael C
“(and we can say that because by RL WC standards, we have several ‘AFL’ countries that are comparable at least to half of the nations competing in the 2008 RL WC).”
Excuse me?
How the hell would you know what they are like?
Have you seen any of those teams ever play RL?
I have, and I’m damn sure a whole heap of ignorant Southerners are going to have their eyes opened big time later this year.
There is around 80 different nationalities playing RL in Australia, England has as many or more, France have a heap of different people from all over the world in their comps, you have NFI what you are talking about.
This is why I and people like me get pissed off with AFL and Union fans posting BS all the time without any knowledge at all, you idiots just listen to the Vic media and take it as gospel.
We’ll see later this year, and when we do, I’m coming back to this thread and asking you how it went compared to that joke the Vics are putting on this year compared to the RLWC.
Not happy, you guys whinge and whine when someone has a go or posts BS about the precious AFL, ever looked in the mirror?
Rodney said | March 25th 2008 @ 9:28am | Report comment
Oh and MC, at least the Storm has the balls to go head to head with the mighty AFL, soccer down there or anywhere out here doesn’t, wasn’t there 4 games of AFL on in Vic the other day when the Storm played?
If so, the crowd shows they have a bunch of hard core fans who turn up regardless, the Storm have never, and I repeat never had some of the pathetic crowds the swans and Lions have had over the years, I remember watching the swans a few times years ago and they’d say the crowd was 10,000 +, what a heap of crap I thought, I know a small crowd when i see it, and if 2,000 at times turned up, it would have been a miracle.
Michael C said | March 25th 2008 @ 9:42am | Report comment
Rodney -
exactly – the jumping up and down by the FFA about increasing crowds – well, in season 2 that was mainly attributable to MVFC playing at TD, avrg ~26K and in the AFL heartland where AFL crowds and memberships and profitability was up – - so, a little light summer entertainment – gee, you’d hate for it NOT to be doing reasonable business in MElbourne (y’know, like SFC in Sydney who have failed to crack the market).
SEason 3 HAL crowds up mainly due to NZ – Wellington Phoenix are now drawing their healthy 11K average comapred to NZ Auckland whatevers who were around 3K avg.
Swans crowds – with the rebuilding at the SCG – the larger portion of crowds probably were in the Members areas and invariably, that’s the side of the ground the cameras are on. It’s a pet hate of mine, that too much tv sport actually under represents the clustered strength of the crowd.
We also know that should it be raining, the crowd ALWAYS (if possible) retreats back beneath shelter, and so, a crowd of 20-30K at some venues can almost be entirely hidden – I know at the old Waverley and at the MCG that often the rain leaves the open areas completely devoid of supporters…..so, what may look like only 2K is still a healthy 25-35K crowd.
THe irony always is, if you’ve sold 40K memberships for a season – you don’t really care if no one turns up – because, you’ve already banked the money – it’s only the venue operators and caterers who care!
However – gee, I must defer to your crowd estimating abilities……
Rodney said | March 25th 2008 @ 9:49am | Report comment
In the early 80s and 90’s, the crowds at the SCG and Carrara would be lucky to have 5k at them a lot of the time, this is a fact, hell, I know people who were asked to come in at times and were offered a few beers if they did, that’s how bad it was.
No amount of spin is going to change that, we all know how bad the crowds will be if they ever have a bad run again, that’s why the AFL gives extra money to these teams to help them out, it’s not a cost of living thing, that is plain BS, only Victorians would be stupid enough to fall for that it seems.
And have you ever seen any of those RL teams outside of Aus NZ GB play to make that massive assumption you did?
Crosscoder said | March 25th 2008 @ 9:57am | Report comment
Micahael C.
You are basiclcally repeating and agreeing with many of my points.It wouldn’t matter if the Storm won 4 in a row,you have to have the base /infrastructure in place such as grassroots,and it doesn’t happen if you only start doing so in 2007(with the $23million being pumped in.You also noted my point,wait until the new stadium is built,to form a real opinion.
As has been stated the Swans crowds for many years ,despite media support and at least being in NSW for decades had crowds of less than 10,000 on mnay occasions in a decent SCG stadium.
The Italians and Greeks are soccer mad,always have been.We have Greeks and italians playing rugby league,because they learnt the game at school.The head of the bulldogs is Dr George Peponis an Aussie born Greek Dr.
Michael C said | March 25th 2008 @ 10:06am | Report comment
Rodney -
no dispute.
I know the story of then Bears Coach Robert Walls, being offered tickets to the game whilst going through the drive thru of the local golden arches (or equivalent).
Cost of living – agreed in part. It should, to be consistent, see a decrease in Adelaide for example.
Reality – it was for player retention – and the key complainant – Eddie at Collingwood – managed to benefit directly by luring Licuria and A.Rocca from the Swans and O’Bree from Brisbane. Oh, but, yes, as Eddie says – it’s a farce and not needed – -
re your earlier point:
“There is around 80 different nationalities playing RL in Australia, England has as many or more, France have a heap of different people from all over the world in their comps, you have NFI what you are talking about.”
This is exactly what we talk about re the apparent farce of Rugby League WC eligibility criteria. Yes – all these nationalaities living in France and England and go back to represent their ‘homeland’ on the basis of where mum, dad or great aunt Ethel was born.
However – granted – that it may be partially a cultural difference – in the AFL we a few years back had a NSW (all-comers) State of Origin team defeat Vic B. It was a bit of a famous win, some argued against Wayne Carey playing there, the full Daniher clan suited up – there was basically a fairly flexible criteria – although, for the main, it was guys from Albury to Wagga and a handful from Sydney. I reckon though, that the derision to the ‘flexible’ eligibility criteria on show there – reflects that AFL folk looking at the RLWC eligibility criteria – which seem very flexible – we look at it perhaps more negatively.
That’s just a back ground for you.
Again though – on this argument you present – over the years we could’ve had some might ‘world cups’ of Aust Footy with Australia vs Italy vs Greece……vs England!! And I may yet have got to represent Denmark…….how dirty am I!!
btw – the AFL has won awards for the multiculture marketing and multicultural programs in Australia – and it is actually well regarded as established overseas sports don’t ‘force’ the same assimilation into the broader community as Aust Footy does (obviously this varies from area to area and national origin etc – so, it’s a broad sweeping statement – you don’t need to debate it). The AFL has a specific organised department dealing with this – and it has been recognised as more than just slogans or lip-service.
Rodney said | March 25th 2008 @ 10:33am | Report comment
I didn’t say they go home to where mum and dad was born, I said they play here and in other places.
We have South Africans, NZ, PNG, Scotland, Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, USA, French, Welsh and a whole heap of others playing RL in Australia who come from other parts, it’s not that hard to understand.
You guys seem to think they are all born here, just because certain types like to say that, doesn’t make it true, and when I say RL for out here, I don’t just mean the NRL, we have comps out here all over the joint.
The current captain of England and GB was out here for a while years ago, so was Adrian Morley, Chris Thorman, Richie Mathers and Irish Captain Brian Carney, did they all grow up in Aus to parents from other countries, or did they come from those countries to play?
Marcus Bia, Stanley Gene or Adrian Lamb, were they born in Aus to PNG parents?
No.
Last year, the Tigers had a guy from Russia out here, he spoke no English and his parents are still over there.
The Broncos have a guy from the USA playing in the lower grades, his parents are still in the USA.
There are players from the Cook Islands and a heap of other Pac Islands, were they born here?
No.
In France, we have Serbian, Russian, English, Kiwi, PNG, Moroccan, Scottish, Australian, Welsh, Irish and a heap of others playing, add to that the Islanders again, the same can be said for England who have players from countries like Kenya, South Africa, Germany, Holland and all the others I’ve listed above.
You seem to think all these people are born in the country they are playing in now, this is not right.
Michael C said | March 25th 2008 @ 10:36am | Report comment
Crosscoder -
Does it surprise you that I might agree? I am not an AFL apologist. They stuff up as much as they get right. Like all of them. FIFA is demeaned as much as respected (feared). The NRL is hardly a beacon for fine sports management – but, they have much to contend with…..etc etc.
The AFL learnt a valuable lesson from the 80s. Be very careful how you treat the ‘local’ footy community. The loss of comparison with Melb Storm and the Swans is that the Swans were a relocated team/club – and one that stomped all over the local community and perhaps did more damage than harm within Sydney.
The Bears were an ugly mismatch of discarded, aged or ‘odd personalities’ that came together. And, again, trod over the local community.
Because – for too long, it was all about the VFL – and that then was the 12 Melb/Geel clubs – and that’s why the Commission has gradually gained greater power (either explicitly via written rules – or, implicitly via the day to day).
The STorm aren’t the grand example of ‘breaking’ into a city, off the field – on the field – the Storm are a fine example of what can happen. And the Titans are a fine example of build it and they will come. As distinct to relocation.
Maybe, going forward – being such a competitive sports and football environment – maybe – there will be a more realistic approach by the AFL in expansion. Who knows that the NRL might or might not be able to do in what time frame?
There’s a whole lot of ‘wait and see’.
An early test – of course – is for the Storm to galvanise their likely supporter base into being regular attendees at their new venue.
The Swans have been lucky to become almost he most recogniseable current/modern tenant at the SCG.
Michael C said | March 25th 2008 @ 10:44am | Report comment
Rodney -
and Wayne Schwass was born in New Zealand, and Aaron Edwards is Samoan and David Rodan Fijian and……..
and Aust Footy is played at lower grades and many, many more foreign born and bred folk play there too….
you’re point is??
I’ve simply argued that there are some nations now with ‘Aust Footy’ programs that are equal in size or even larger than comparative RL programs in those or other countries that play the RL WC (i.e. made the top 10). You’re trying to take this way off track.
The point of it all is that if RL players CAN and DO come from Samoa, or Tonga, or PNG – there’s no reason why the AFL Clubs shouldn’t be more open to players from those regions if there is a decent Aust Footy program there. And – the example of a city like Wagga would state that if a kid grows up in Tonga with RL, RU and Aust Footy and Soccer people all trying to woo that kid – then, he’s probably going to develop quite broad skills and be pretty good at whatever he sticks with………alas, will the young ‘average’ kids in suburban Australia get the same opportunities!!! (well, in West Sydney that seems certain – - – competition can only be good – but, look, Rodney (rent an argument) – go on to your hearts content – I’ve got to get on with some real work now.
Rodney said | March 25th 2008 @ 10:51am | Report comment
Ok, MC, outside of Aus, what country that plays both sports has AFL bigger than RL, and I want proof, not heresay.
Michael C said | March 25th 2008 @ 12:02pm | Report comment
Possibly Denmark – although, all I can find that still exists is Union references, possibly Canada – although, Rugby League seems at a turning point, i.e. it has almost dissolved – maybe you don’t want to count Canada, possibly even the US.
I note the AMNRL website listing 9 teams in a single ‘league’.
Connecticut Wildcats
Aston DSC Bulls
Bucks County Sharks
New York Knights
New Haven Warriors
D.C. Slayers
Philadelphia Fight
Jacksonville Axemen
Northern Raiders
Fairfax Eagles
below is the list of Aust Footy clubs in the US.
Arizona Hawks
Atlanta Kookaburras Austin Crows
Bakersfield Barbarians
Baltimore Washington Eagles
Baton Rouge Tigers
Boston Demons
Buffalo VFC
Calgary Kangaroos
Chicago United
Cincinnati Dockers
Colorado Springs Dragons
Dallas Magpies
Denver Bulldogs
Detroit Overdrive
Florida Redbacks
Fort Lauderdale Fighting Squids
Golden Gate Roos
Illinois Ironmen
Kansas City Power
Las Vegas Gamblers
Lehigh Valley Crocodiles
Los Angeles Swans
Louisville Football Club
Milwaukee Bombers
Minnesota Freeze
Mojave Greens
Nashville Kangaroos
New Hampshire
New York Magpies
North Carolina Tigers
Orange County Bombers
Philadelphia Hawks AFC
Pittsburgh Wallabies
Portland Power
Riverside Raiders
Rocky Mountain Football and Cricket Club
Salt Lake Seagulls
San Diego Lions
Seattle Grizzlies
South Carolina Hawks
St Louis Blues
Tuscon Javelinas
Vancouver Cougars Vermont
- – -now, since nobody operates in a complete vacuum any more – we can thank the internet for that – would you say that on the basis of that list of clubs – that the AFL should simply ignore the US. I’ve already listed Canada for your benefit.
in PNG – there’s around 2000 registered adults at about 64 clubs – but, juniors, bolsters that to around 10K. That puts AFL presence in PNG above that of RL in places like Tonga and Samoa – so, PNG, whilst RL is still bigger than AFL – PNG could easily, by, RL WC standards be a stand alone ‘nation’ in an AFL WC. True/False????
Germany – a RL affiliate: 6 teams:
Rohrbach Hornets (Heidelberg)
RC Bad Reichenhall (Bad Reichenhall)
Karlsruhe
Franconian Pigs (Nürnberg)
Rheinland (Hürth)
Pfortzheim
AFLG – 6 teams
Frankfurt Redbacks
Munich Kangaroos
Berlin Crocodiles
Hamburg Dockers
Rheinland Lions
Strasbourg Black Devils
Hold the horses – big win to RL? No – 6 teams each. Should Aust Footy should scrub out Germany, it’s RL territory? gee, on 6 teams you become an official RL affiliate league. So – surely that means it’s no big deal for AFLG to be AN AFL affiliate league. On which basis – that justifies it being part of the ‘international scope’ of Australian Football. True/False??????
btw – guess what – even in German RL they play 9 a-side matches in some of these places – and that won’t just be because they can’t find appropriate fields upon which to fit more players.
Now – given the apparent absence of RL in Denmark, and that RL in Sweden is about no further than a fellow named Scott Edwards from England trying to gain interested parties….
…well, I’d say that the AFL is building a pretty cool little niche in that part of the world. ANd is actually ahead of RL at present.
Granted – given a pro-league (Superleague) in England – this seems surprising.
Note – Aust Footy in Sweden:
National Regional Leauge : Gothenburg Berserkers, Scania Griffins and Stockholm Dynamite.
Scania currently has two teams in the DAFL Premier League, the Port Malmö Maulers from Malmö and South Sweden Saints based in Helsingborg.
Australian rules football in the Stockholm region is governed by the Stockholm region Australian Football Federation (SAFF). The SAFF runs a three-team suburban competition featuring the Bromma Vikings, Solna Axemen and Södermalm Blue Saints, with a representative team known as the Stockholm Dynamite.
2007 saw the formation of three new clubs in northern Sweden, based in the cities of Karlstad, Uppsala and Falun.
Participation
The AFL International Census in 2007 reported a total of 393 players in Sweden, of which 257 were senior, 58 junior and around 78 participants registered in the Viking footy Auskick like program.
AGain – Sweden – in isolation, may not be much, Germany may be less – but, based around the DAFL and with Finland coming on board – it’s a vibrant little regional northern Euro competition and community. Again – no longer as ‘isolated’ as in previous generations. The sum total is worth considering. However, AFL expansion wise – you’d suggest it be ignored and allowed to wither.
We AFL ‘dreamers’ would rather they are given some recognition, a possible talent pathway, and perhaps a bit of a helping hand – that seems about the extent of it. And, why not? (that’s not so much ‘EXPANSION’ as recognising…….affiliating…..international outposts.)
So – the true article headline should be regards AFL international affiliation – a waste of time or a worthy undertaking.
Rodney said | March 25th 2008 @ 12:55pm | Report comment
MC, the US has juniors, both RL and RU are working together in a heap of places, so I’d say RL is heaps bigger when you factor that in, plus some club crowds are around 2,000 each home game and the GF can get up to 5,000, the USAFL doesn’t get anything like this.
The AMNRL is also involved in the Afterschools program that goes to most states, the numbers are growing.
Some teams have sponsorships up to $50,000 and they are amateur, could you show me any USAFL club anywhere near that?
Oh and the Jacksonville Axemen are only 2 years old and have done all that by themselves plus had 12,500 turn up to see Souths V Leeds after they had a few crowds of a couple of thousand in their first year.
Canada, well they don’t play RL, but I’ve heard they could be getting a club or two together to join the AMNRL.
Germany, well I’v looked at the toytown website a fair bit and most of the people playing AFL over there are Aussies, a fair few of them turn out for RL-RU and vise versa, esp touch Rugby of both codes, matter of fact a few of the RU clubs are about to become duel code clubs with actual German players, unlike the AFL which uses expats, this ontop of the RL clubs already playing.
The German RL has affiliated membership to the European Rugby League Federation and the guys who are running it post at a few of the sites I go to, they do not have a problem with fields, Germany plays Soccer in many places and RU has been played over there for well over a century, why would RL have a problem?
It’s not like all the pitches are owned by other sports, usually, the council owns them.
PNG, RL kills every sport over there, RL is a 12 month of the year game in PNG, the kids play in clubs on the week end and play for schools during the week, for you to even suggest AFL is anywhere near RL in PNG is absolutely laughable.
As for Sweden, RL is not played over there, but kids are being taught the game at school by a very dedicated teacher.
So when you look at it MC, where the two codes go head to head, RL is doing better and they have been around for hardly anytime and are getting into schools and have juniors, I look at Big Footy all the time in their international section, and I have yet to see any pics of juniors playing the game anywhere, at least when I look for RL juniors in countries that play, they have pics and news about it them, that puts RL way out in front, it shows real growth with the natives, not a bunch of expats out in a weekend getting pissed and kicking around a sherrin.
Michael C said | March 25th 2008 @ 1:14pm | Report comment
Rodney -
do I really have to investigate the individual sponsorship arrangements of each of the USfooty teams? Please – you’re picking out little tit bits of information here and there and trying to glue them together as some overall position of strength.
The reality – as you have finally admitted – the links to RU are vital in many areas.
And – certainly, often early development of Aust Footy teams will be bolstered by the odd Irish, SAf or Pommies Rugby player making up the numbers.
In the US – the 12,500 crowd at Jacksonville was after Rusty Crowe went full out in trying to publicise the event and convincing a few tired celebs including Denis Rodman to show up. Grand – count that as a valid crowd for local competiton if you must – it was after all the Rabbitohs vs Leeds – and, perhaps every Aussie and Pommie and French and Kiwi backpacker within 800 miles turned up……..or not – 12,500 would be a bit disappointed were that the case.
So – RL in Germany simply play 9 a side for the same reason Aust Footy types do – to provide local ‘intra city’ ‘matches’ and then merge those mini teams into a ‘regional’ or city side to play ‘higher level’ matches……it’s all still just social, fun.
You can’t just dismiss Canada!!!
“Rugby league has been played in Canada in the past at an amateur level, but competitions have since disbanded and the sport is dormant. Rugby league has gained little recognition in face of the more popular sport of Rugby union.”
Correct – PNG is pre-dominantly a RL country:
however, that does not discount that Aust Footy has made giant strides there in the past few years and especially on the back of Mal Michael becoming a nationally prominant symbol – and feature via several national advertising campaigns – and the main reason one thinks why he chose NOT to retire, but to return and play with Essendon last year after first having announced a retirement. The game is spreading rapidly and doing quite well thank you very much. What the AFL has NOW in PNG is more vast than RL stand alone in countries such as Tonga, Samoa and even Fiji.
If Rugby Union did not exist off which for RL to attach like a parasite (harsh term – but, I wonder how the Union folk see it in some places – undoubtedly for every location where there’s mutual benefit there’d be another where it’ll be one or the other), like a mistletoe growth – then RL stand alone would be vastly smaller than it is presently. True/.false?????
And I’d like to see what RL would achieve were it SOLELY an Australian game with only a single ‘elite’ professional competition.
I think that the growth of Aust Footy over the last 10 years has been encouraging. The consolidation and introduction of juniors in several locations is very encouraging. The fact that we are even talking about kids coming through the system – actually in our talent pathway now is encouraging.
I admired Marcus Bai at Storm, having not attended since about 98/99 – he had a bit of a cult following, and one can only hope that certain ‘blinded’ & myopic Victorian centric AFL clubs can raise their vision to take a punt on some PNG talent – the more that the folk from our nearest neighbour can be given hope and opportunities in Australia – the better. I’m sure you’d agree on that point.
So – what is your point. Should the AFL not bother? Should we resign ourselves to believe that nothing good can come out of Australia??
btw – one fellow at a school – as per your representation of Sweden and RL is how so many of the international developments occur in both RL and Aust Footy. A single person at a school, in a park, at a pub. That’s the cool thing about ‘organic’ growth. Where as the Russell Crowe bandwagon coming to town – there’s something a little to ‘bling’ about that……..alas, it might be what’s needed to take the next step.
Michael C said | March 25th 2008 @ 1:37pm | Report comment
First England junior international vs Denmark – 2006
http://www.aussierulesuk.com/dragonslayers/
2nd vs Sweden – 2007
http://www.aussierulesuk.com/dragonslayers/sweden.php
Next match likely vs Wales in 2008
Early days, but the US vs Canada in juniors and womens in early 2007 over the weekend of US Revolution vs Canada Northwind at Thunderbird stadium……(my kids’d love that as a name for a venue).
It’s happening, it’s out there. Where it goes – who knows.
THAT’S the curiousity of all this – especially for we AFL folk who have never previously seriously considered any of all this.
The main hope – and main reason that AFLG aren’t going to waste heaps of money on bringing a team over to Aust this year is that they are very much in the early phases – and need to do a fair bit of work to catch up to Denmark and Sweden. And, whilst the total numbers makes it a bit like a few so sized country town fighting it out – where the larger towns have hundreds to choose from (eg Denmark and Sweden), the smaller towns have who’s available (Germany, Finland). Again though, small country towns, like a Heyfield in East Gippsland – less than 2K population – can churn out 6 or so AFL players over a 10 year period. So – if Germany, Sweden, Denmark and Finland can ’self promote’ and consolidate – then, a combined total of 600 or 800 or 1000 players at some hopefully not too distant moment in the future – well, there’s no reason good players can’t come from there.
But – again – I remind we ARE NOT talking about expansion of the AFL (league), or overnight international competition for the AFL. That – I don’t know of anyone who has ever seriously suggested.
at any rate – the way you look at RL in schools in America as a starting point, so too is the way Aussie Rules is in schools in England and Scotland. It may all just start with one school and one teacher.
“In Sutton, south London, Carshalton Boys’ School has taken soccer out of its PE curriculum altogether and replaced it with Australian Rules football.
‘About 500 pupils have done it so far, and around 30 per cent of them are those who are the shyer, less confident and more unfit’, said Paul Avery, the school’s head of sport. ‘Pupils like the fact that because it’s new, no one here has played it before, everyone is equal and there is no hierarchy.’
The school uses a modified, less physical version of a game notorious for its tough tackling and all-round aggression, called ‘touch Aussie Rules’, where a pupil must release the ball as soon as they are touched by an opponent. “
Westy said | March 25th 2008 @ 2:26pm | Report comment
Michael C… You general points have some validity although I fail to see this threads importance. . in that it is very very long term and their are red herrings on all sides. However like we all do you fly off from historical reality at times….The non success of league in 1908 and later and the continuing amateurism of rugby would have meant this…harsh reality…. in the words of Sean Fagan we would most likely all be playing and following AFL. Like most of their Melbourne /Victorian counterparts ordinary Sydneysiders had never believed it a sin to compensate or pay a person for physical sporting skill. The existence of and success of the NSW league competition basically created a shield behind which Australian Rugby could and did hide. Rugby’s strength was provincial and international not domestic and I am afraid to say its administrators would not have coped in a direct confrontation with the VFL. As you may be aware talks did take place between the breakaway league and VFL. Any merged game would have been a deathknell for Australian Rugby. League in Australia has never completely divorced itself from Rugby nor set out to destroy it. There is mockery , derision and old fashioned class conflict and prejudice but most league followers watch the Wallabies and quite a few Rugby supporters keep an eye on their league team.League often plundered rugby’s quality stocks using it as a source of viable players keen to make a living from their skills.. League found it easier to cope in Australia unlike the UK where the game was barred in the armed /forces and at all technical colleges and universities even in the northern counties and the bar on league players playing “any” rugby strictly enforced. Rugby going officially professional in 1995 saw all the old shamateurism out the window. It was league that kept aussie rules at bay definitely not rugby. League provided an indirect shield to Rugby. Rugby was perfectly placed to take major advantage of league’s very damaging super league war yet did not have the vision capacity or guts to grow the game in this country or even its own back yard. It was the much better run AFL that were the prime beneficiary of league’s super league war,and the News 50% ownership of League .. Imagine what they would have done to Rugby if you had got at them in 1908. They were ripe for the picking. Sadly with a few exceptions rugby has never had a feel for the ordinary Australian sporting public desire for a local team to support week in week out.Rugby prefers an important private school domestic game that has relevance to the priviliged few. .League and AFL have one thing in common they have historically aimed for the people.
Michael C said | March 25th 2008 @ 2:43pm | Report comment
Westy –
I agree entirely – I gather it was the ‘anti’ article that certain anti-AFL type fundamentalists just couldn’t resist posting after our AFL fluffy bubblegum dream-in via my “Canada: the next breeding ground for AFL recruitment?” article.
My main points relative to an article I in part agree with and in part disagree – as, with all sweeping generalisations – the words and actions of a few who happened in the main to operate outside the regular sphere have been portrayed as all representative.
The simply quote from the article above –
“The efforts of expats to take their piece of Australiana with them is nothing if not admirable. But willing amateurs do not equate to a meaningful & significant presence.”
NOT ONLY describes the vast majority of Aust Footy overseas – but, in reality – outside of the top 4 and maybe PNG – describes Rugby League O-S. And especially where Union did not exist first, the ability to RL to grow organically by itself is limited. Thus far – and I recognise Russia.
So – forgive me – as a willing amateur all my footballing life – and appropriately – still playing in the ACTUAL VAFA (Victorian Amateur Football Association) – that I don’t mind sticking up for the Amateurs – and celebrating that a few Danes, Swedes, Finns etc like our game enough to not only have a bit of a go, but to commit to it enough to build clubs/ leagues and travel to the other side of the world to play the game in it’s ‘homeland’.
I’d hope I’ve been able to illustrate that there are a few countries, and a few ‘outbreaks’ of the game in certain international regions – that are of particular interest and worth keeping an eye on.
Some folk have spoken of ‘challenging’ other codes. That’s just nonsense – and they must surely realise it too. If there’s learning to crawl before you walk, run, sprint etc…..well, Aust Footy international presence varies from ebrionic, in the crib and here and there a bit of crawling. RL obviously, has a couple of running/sprinting countries, a couple of joggers, a couple of walkers and the rest are there – there abouts with equivalent Aust Footy. Although Rodney will pull out individual examples that he will spin to proove otherwise.
Crosscoder said | March 25th 2008 @ 4:28pm | Report comment
RedB
Inventing issues to start a fight is not my scene ,I have simply stated opinions not just mine,but based on comparisons between the Storm and Swans and the difference in facilities,junior development,media support,existence in each state .
The NRL openly admits it has a lot to do in Vic as does Waldron.
It my comments are all relevant ,when we discuss the matter of expand eg AFL intenationally(or if you like foreign untested ground).Availability of decent fields,getting into the schools,getting the media on side,having people on the ground.
Sheesh! If you can’t hack my point of view,stick to your comfort zone.
Crosscoder said | March 25th 2008 @ 4:50pm | Report comment
MichaelC .You ask the question why there is a need to have an NZ team in the national comp.
Answer many NZedders followed the ARL competition before the introduction of the Warriors.The NZealanders themselves wanted a team in the NRL,as many Kiwis were starting to play in the comp.It opened up the potential viewing audience to another 4 million ,and it provided further income opportunities via Tv contracts in that country.
Wellington actually tried to get a franchise,but were knocked back.Down the line that is still a chance of happening.A Belgian brewing billionaire who resides in NZ,was prepared to back the new franchise.
At first many rl followers were not keen on having the Kiwis involved.That has changed as the entry of the Warriors has strengthened the pool of players available for their test side,and exposed the game further in a country where rugby union is king.The SL war in which the Warriors decided to switch to that comp,did damage to the game in NZ,as it did in Perth and Adelaide.
It gets back to my exapnsion argument,the more teams you can play against competitively(the operative word) internationally,the better it is for the game.
I am the first to admit rugby league at times shoots itself in the foot,with some dumb decisions by the administration.Once the News Ltd crowd eventually withdraw from the partnership,the game in some ways will not be as hamstrung.
Michael C said | March 25th 2008 @ 5:06pm | Report comment
Crosscoder -
cheers.
I’ve kinda figured where I’d like Aust Footy to go – re. internationalisation.
The International Cup for Senior/open age is not necessary – it was a starting point.
The future is via a junior version that should be fully or more fully funded.
This would allow kids in whatever country who may be dabbling in Aust Footy in shortened seasons or off-season from their primary pursuit – it would allow them the opportunity to commit to a tournament where they could be ‘on display’. They then might at least be given the option at an age when it might count.
This would be a key to allowing greater local leverage in home countries to promote footy as more than just something different – rather, to ensure a valid sporting ’stage’ to show your wares.
Senior level – should concentrate more on continental level and perhaps inter-continental competition. Rather than spending too much money on bringing individual nations to Australia – let the national organisations stick to their own relative backyard. But – have a parallel IC tournament with Asia vs Nth America vs Europe vs Britain (a fair argument to keep separate) vs Africa vs Pacific or something like that – thus allowing the best to be more easily ‘promoted’ and allow the better quality across the park.
By this – allow and promote greater intra-European tournaments – and the AFL could assist in organising a Whole of Europe championship – and as world governing body be in charge of seeding and pools etc.
The juniors plank being critical – to provide a potential to ensure reasonable supply of future senior players. The golden sporting egg is that each ‘year’ of juniors may provide X% 20 year senior players, Y% 10 year players, Z% 5 year players and hopefully only a small proportion who give it away for whatever reason.
Via that – who knows – there may be a possibility of sufficient interest to develop a bit of a semi-pro league at the higher levels. Over the years – enough people in the US for example got hooked (as a cult following) on the ESPN delivery of Aust Footy – back when ESPN was just building up and took content from anywhere…….as distinct to it’s 100% quality now!!!!!!
Anyway, we have good coverage on Setanta at present – so, there’s a base to build from there – a potential broadcast partner??? (I doubt it). Well, at least a broadcaster and therefore a broadcast medium to promote via and to.
The AFL obviously would need to work hard with the ICC to promote cricket and shared facilities further throughout Europe and Nrth America. They’ve already got a great facility down in Florida that was supposed to host a ICC WC match – but has 3 full size ovals and is willing and able to host USfooty.
However, an example in Austria is that the reclaimed cabbage patch cricket oval is a small oval not much bigger than the Rugby pitch and is shared with Rugby – such facilities are not long term ideal for cricket. However, to go bigger is harder.
I wonder if James Sutherland, Mal Speed and ANdrew Demetriou have had a shared coffee recently?
Rodney said | March 25th 2008 @ 5:18pm | Report comment
MC, if you want any info on RL go to a RL site, one like LU and see what is happening yourself.
And I have not said RU is vital to Rl expansion, how the hell did you come up with that?
God you are getting on my nerves, the only people who goes on like you are either Clarkey, Runvs, Hoops, Jackmac7, Dan26 and all the other people like yourself at Big footy.
If I was to go to BF in the International section and put some of Clarkey’s posts here, I’m quite sure 90 percent of the people who would say that is you.
You post the same stuff, you know all the answers, you put a sly dig in at Rl in every post even when you don’t mean too.
Give it up and admit it’s you.
Crosscoder said | March 25th 2008 @ 5:23pm | Report comment
MichaelC.
In my view you try also to concentrate where the market and wealth reside.In the UK ,there are businessmen involved financially with rugby league teams,and in the Celtic crusaders (who are applying for the next SL expansion).Toulouse a large city involved with the Airbus has plenty of financial ,council support for their application to SL.
The real market is the US,and whilst it has been noted that AFL has more teams than RL,the latter is adopting a business style approach in establishing teams.That is why it has been softly softly and not rushed to create a plethora tems ,just for number’s sake.
Rugby league is popping up in places I never thought possible,and one in particular in the pipeline thought would be the last place to express interest.Should that one take off,all I can say they have an abundance of athletes.
BTW don’t knock R Crowe for his efforts in promoting rl at Jacksonville.If you think it was only him involved in doing the hard yakka,you are wrong.A US citizen by the name of “Spinner” Howland,did the bulk ofthe groundwork.He is involved with the rl team the Jacksonville Axeman.Yes there were expats there,but also a large number of locals who had watched their first game.One commented this game is “sick”.He loved the body contact and speed of the game.
JASON ANDREW TOPPIN FROM BORONIA VICTORIA AUSTRALIA said | March 25th 2008 @ 5:30pm | Report comment
IF THE AFL, IRB, ICC, FIFA, NFL, NBA, NHL, & NRL/SUPER LEAGUES HAVE JOINT MANANMENT STRUCTURES SO THE AFL CAN HAVE TEAMS IN AFIRCA, ASIA, EROUPE, NOTH AMERICA SOUTH AMERICA & CANADA
Redb said | March 25th 2008 @ 9:01pm | Report comment
From the World Footy news website for those interesed in Australian football in PNG.
——————————————————————————————-
PNG scholarship player selected in Queensland U18 State Squad
Saturday, March 22 2008 @ 11:05 AM EST
Many things are happening through AFL Queensland that will be good for both PNG and international footy, from the appointment of an Oceania regional development manager to scholarship schemes in Brisbane and Cairns. And the Papuans now look closer than ever to having their first home-grown AFL listed player in John James. Read on for the latest from Australia’s northern neighbour.
The Queensland Under 18 State Championships have just concluded in the Gold Coast and Brisbane areas. John James has been selected in the State Squad to go to the Australian Championships after a stunning tournament. The squad will begin a hectic 2008 campaign with a match against TAC Cup side Oakleigh Chargers at the Gabba on 19 April. It will lead into three matches in the NAB AFL Division Two championships in Melbourne on 7 May, 10 May and 14 May.
The Queensland under 18s are now a strong provider of AFL draftees. Given that the AFL in the past couple of weeks has changed the eligibility for clubs to list international players, eventually allowing each club to list up to 24, there must be a reasonable chance that James will be PNG’s first.
At least 3 Papua New Guineans played with the Country Kookaburra at the State Championships as products of the development program that AFLQ is working on in conjunction with PNG.
PNG at the State Championships
Round One:- The Kookaburra’s Papua New Guinea contingent lead by John James through the midfield and Stanis Susuve & Augustine Bede up forward certainly added some excitement under the stadium lights as the conditions cooled from earlier in the day. Final Result was Country Kookaburras 10.8 (68) d Western Taipans 3.4 (22).
Goal Kickers: Kookas – John James 3, Miles Kerindon 2, Darcy Pope 2, Tom Rudolph 2, Stanis Susuve 1
Best: Kookas – Justin Myers John James, Zac Smith, Augustine Bede, Tom Rudolph
Round Two:- Final Result was South East Bushrangers 15.4 (94) d Country Kookaburras 5.11 (41)
Goal Kickers: Kookaburras – Miles Kerindun 2, Justin Myer 1, Darcy Pope 1, Tom Rudolph 1
Best: Kookaburras – Miles Kerindun, Atiba Jackson, John James, Justin Myers, Zac Smith
Round Three:- The Country Kookaburras’ wasteful kicking in front of goals ruined their chances after trailing the Northern Raiders by four goals at half-time, the Raiders hanging on to win 10.10 (70) to 8.17 (65). The elusive John James sparked the Kookaburras after the side struggled early but it was to no avail.
Goalkickers: Kookaburras – Charlie Dixon 2, Matt Storey 1, Jon Hanran 1, Tom Rudolph 1, Ryan Patterson 1, Justin Myers 1, Darcy Pope 1.
Best Players: Kookaburras – John James, Justin Myers, Matt Storey, Charlie Dixon, Jon Hanran, Zac Smith.
Round Four:- It was reported that injury to John James didn’t help the result for the Kookaburras, indicating the high regard with which he is held. Final Result was Gold Coast Stingrays 16.8 (104) d Country Kookaburras 4.9 (33)
Goal Kickers: Kookaburras – John James 1, Andrew Joyce 1, Atiba Jackson 1, Matt Pendlington 1
Best Players: Kookaburras – Justin Myers, Andrew Joyce, Atiba Jackson, Clint Maltby, Darcy Pope
Round Five:- Final result was Suncoast Power 10.11 (71) d Country Kookaburras 9.11 (65)
Goal Kickers:- Kookaburras – Justin Myers 3, Mitchell Nicholson 2, Charlie Dixon 2, Tom Rudolph 1, Daniel Watkins 1
Best Players: Kookaburras – Justin Myers, Zac Smith, Atiba Jackson, Jeff Nuemann, Andrew Joyce, Chas Rienhardt
FINAL PLACINGS: Gold Coast Stingrays, South East Bushrangers, Suncoast Power, Northern Raiders, Country Kookaburras, Western Taipans
PNG in Cairns
There is also a contingent of PNG players playing in Far North Queensland in the Cairns competition. This group has also been invited to train with the Cairns Under 18 development squad. According to Matt Hillard of cairns.com.au, “Their trademark pace, evasive skills and ball-carrying abilities are noticeable from the moment you watch them train with their Far North counterparts.” AFL Cairns Development Manager Eddie Skiba said the boys added an X factor to the Cairns under-18 squad. “Their knowledge and awareness of the game is very good”. He added that the boys would train with the Cairns squad in preparation for the under-18 Queensland Country Championships in Rockhampton. Beyond that, State Championships beckon for those good enough. Hillard continued “While PNG players Ogla Pena, Ferdinand Musi, Willie Nicholas, Jackson Bell and Augustine Bede are making their first trip to Australia for football, Bergman Talingapua has done it all before. Talingapua, 17, was part of the group which travelled to Australia last year. Talingapua played in the Manunda Hawks under-18 premiership last season.
Midfielder said | March 25th 2008 @ 9:37pm | Report comment
Redb
Thats it
Redb said | March 25th 2008 @ 9:42pm | Report comment
I hope you read the whole post there Midfielder. Will be posting more soon for your reading pleasure and interest in our great Australian game.
Michael C said | March 25th 2008 @ 10:13pm | Report comment
Rodney -
“the US has juniors, both RL and RU are working together in a heap of places, so I’d say RL is heaps bigger when you factor that in”
That’s the nearest you’ve got to admitting what is obvious in so many places – that without pre-existing RU that RL would really have struggled to A. start up and B. be sustained. But – just as you claim that I’m being a little too faithful to the ’spin’ – you seem to be rattling out spin after spin. Good luck to you – because – it’s romantic optimists that make these things happen – so, bugger off from shooting down our little bit of curious optimism.
The simple fact that you are able to rattle off a list of sparring partners from Bigfooty shows how much of a troublemaker you are. You are purely looking for arguments and seek to contradict everything by stating dubious facts – and, oh, of course, ‘that’s old information, NOW there’s 6 teams “.
If have stressed WHY I’ve drawn reference to RL. i.e. that people who so readily put down the Aust Footy presence internationally need some perspective. I say good luck to the RL folk pushing their game – the RLWC, regarded by many as a farce, but, then, the too large a ‘top level’ pool exposes the RUWC and ICC WC as well. And RU have essentially the same loose eligibility criteria as RL. No big deal there. However – I make no apologies for drawing comparisons. You seem to have taken great offence and going to great lengths to down play Aust Footy international presence and over play the RL presence. Fine.
Crosscoder -
note – the AFL has only in the last year or so got involved in USfooty helping – as you suggest – with the business models. Prior to that, it’s been all grass roots and organic. the number of teams is a bit of a surprise. The ability for the AFL now to turn this into something else – that will be interesting to monitor.
Rusty was the one who got on tv talk shows and talked it up. But – for an exhibition match – even the AFL have drawn crowds in the US and Canada (inc 30K + in Toronto). Note – do not mention the Swans vs Roos in LA 3 years ago – that WAS a capacity crowd for the ruddy venue!!!!!
AFL in PNG – it’s still an area most have no idea about – but, the game is growing at a huge rate of knots and the talent pathway is opening right up. the crucial role that QLD plays is not understood by many – and is part of the reason that a 2nd QLD AFL team is a no-brainer. It must be done.
Midfielder said | March 26th 2008 @ 12:15am | Report comment
Just two things on PNG
1) PNG are a big player in the Oceania Football Confederation,
2 ) Home page of PNG Soccer / Football http://www.pngfootball.com.pg
see teams, clubs etc etc etc
Midfielder said | March 26th 2008 @ 12:42am | Report comment
Redb
Further to my above post I now add the league stuff, ……….mate it does your cause no good to compare AFL in PNG to well established existing league & football networks.
PNG League home page http://www.sportingpulse.com/assoc_page.cgi?c=2-1547-0-0-0
Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papua_New_Guinea_national_rugby_league_team
Rugby league in Papua New Guinea is regarded as the country’s national sport. The national side are known as the Kumuls (bird of paradise in Tok Pisin). Many Papua New Guinean players have left the country in order to pursue professional rugby league careers in Great Britain and Australia.
A team representing Papua New Guinea (generally made up of a mixture of locally based players and International Players) plays an Australian Prime Minister’s XIII in an annual match. The Australian side consists mostly of developing players from the premier competition the National Rugby League (NRL).
Crosscoder said | March 26th 2008 @ 7:29am | Report comment
Michael C
With respect before Rusty Crowe got on Jay Leno talk show,the groundwork had already been laid by Howland,and many tickets sold.Jacksonville already had a team in the AMNRL,and had a small but growing supporter base.the fact of the matter the organisers were exepcting about 8,000,it was hssing down rain just prior to the match,yet they cracked 12,500.One of the US teams in what is a minor comp gets 1,300 to 2,000 at a match-from memory originally called Glen Mill Bulls.BTW it was not in an area where there is an abundance of Aust expats ie California where AFL is involved .
You know little it would appear of Howland’s involvement with the local media and council.Crowe played his part in the latter stage,anycase his involvement did more to raise the profile of rl in the US than anything before.
Jacksonville is hardly the megatropolis such as other cities are in the US.Rest assured this is the first of more annual matches at this venue.Work is ongoing to establish rl on the West Coast,and Middle America,slowly however.Rugby league also played a match SOO on the West Coast USAa big crowd,prior to the SL war,with no rl presence there.
PNG at a huge rate of knots!.If you start from a small player base and double it,it is a huge rate of knots but small bikkies in reality to the PNG scene.Bit like rugby league in Melbourne,although they do have a team in the national comp,and they are starting as from 07 to push the game at a grassroots level.We have a very good idea of rugby league in PNG,irrespective of what AFL is doing,and rl is huge.
To support my argument about interpreting growth in the Border Shield competition for rl
Crosscoder said | March 26th 2008 @ 7:48am | Report comment
MichaelC.
You claim ru and rl are working together in heaps of places overseas.That is a generalisation that is incorrect(some of their players may play in the different seasons in the UK) in PNG,NZ,(different seasons in the US)USA,Lebanon,Serbia,Russia,South Africa,Tonga,Cook Islands,Samoa,Fiji,France,Scotland,England (with the exception of Harlequins)Wales,Ireland.They may at times use the same fields,many council owned.
You are giving the impression the ru is assisting in pushing intnl rl growth,that is false because simply they are competing for the same athletes. Yes in some countries there is a mutual respect for each other,and some players play both codes. US players who started off in gridiron ,giving rl a go,they are not assisted by ru.
Many of these countries had rl started up by rl people,not ru people.
Redb said | March 26th 2008 @ 8:37am | Report comment
Ahh…Midfielder,
if your going to have these delusionary battles in your head I think you should see a doctor.
Please find a statement where I have compared Australian football’s progress in PNG to rugby league. This is not about rugby league, funnily enough this thread is about ‘AFL’ internationally.
It is ’sauce for the goose’ I know for evangelists of other codes, but nonetheless there is a small and growing presence of Australian football being played in various countruies around the world that is organicially driven by expats but with a growing number of locals having a go.
I love my country, but fair dinkum some people shouldn’t be allowed to vote or have citizenship in this country.
chers
Redb
Midfielder said | March 26th 2008 @ 9:29am | Report comment
Redb
Refering to yourself on your last point I see………but I am a free spirited type of guy and you should still be allowed to vote.
My problem ……………with your various statements is you wish to claim great gains in international AFL, ………but when facts are presented that so league and then football in a close country is by far number one and two you dismiss and fall back to arguements that don’t make sense when compared to the orginal post.
As I have often said I don’t care who wins between AFL & the NRL, it actually means little to me, I watch both at times and can see in both codes skill and courage that is to be admired. Even at local club level Swans V Port, Manly V Parramatta.
But I simply don’t care, ……..but what I do care about is mutton dressed up as lamb…………and I get the feeling that you AFL types fail to understand why some people will not make your game their game. Also the hype put out by the AFL and AFL media in Melbourne has not (my guess) been challanged in Melbourne and it will not be the same outside the exclusion zone of Melbourne.
A well meaning bit of advice……………AFL seems to be followed by some more like a cult by some, very few people in NSW & QLD share that view on sport and will be turned off AFL types pushing adgendas down their throat, and especially us football people who have had years to RBL.
Michael C said | March 26th 2008 @ 9:32am | Report comment
Crosscoder -
I didn’t claim the ‘working together’ – it was indicated by Rodney – I speculated that for every place of mutual benefit there were sure to be at least another place where RL was the parasite draining RL.
I was being relatively polite to Rodney as his incessant arguing and dredging of single facts and portrayal of such as absolute general fact – - well, I’ve been thus far pretty consistent in indicating that most of what I’ve seen shows RL to be only in existence in certain locations because there was existing RU infrastructure (human and physical) off which to leverage.
And as you indicate – they are competing for the same athletes. However – the 2 codes allow greater scope essentially for the same game to achieve ‘representative’ level. [because, it's Rugby and Rugby, NOT swimming and cycling for example.]
So – I agree with you – and I’d perhaps appreciate you taking Mr.Rodney directly to task = he seems to have rose coloured glasses of the world of Rugby League. And seems to spend way too much time baiting AFL types on Bigfooty.
re Russell Crowe – you’re going on a bit too much about this point – FACT – he was involved in the event via publicity. End of story. I don’t care whether you give him credit for 20% of the attendance, or 40%. It was an exhibition match – in 1989 the AFL drew 10K to Joe Robbie Stadium in Miami – - big deal. I don’t see how this relates to the local competition.
In 1987 the AFL drew almost 33K to Vancouver, and matches in Toronto in ‘88 and ‘89 drew 18.5K and 24.6K respectively. Big deal. I don’t think those games had any flow on effect to the ‘growth’ in Canada since 2003 – do you?
btw – what’s with “BTW it was not in an area where there is an abundance of Aust expats ie California where AFL is involved” comment??
People have spoken of California as being a good place to start/target serious efforts. However – thus far – and remember, USfooty (NOT USAFL for example) has grown organically without AFL input. It IS NOT a ‘world governing body’ planned and approved competition. Did you not peruse the list of Aust Footy clubs in the US (note, a couple of Canadian clubs were included in that list – I think because they have been involved in cross border matches) – California is barely represented. I have no idea what you’re on about with that comment. Please – have some basis – some supporting evidence – to you comments. I at least peruse wikipedia or RL WC websites and national organisation websites for the published information.
Midfielder -
I can point you to links and websites too – which indicate that Aust Footy was perhaps the most popular sport in PNG in the 50s/60s and even into the 80s. That the AFL lost focus there whilst expanding and re-structuring domestically in Australia – at the expense of PNG via QLD, and that self interested media mafia along with the impact of QLD in SoO and Marcus Bai assisted RL to gain prominance and became the ‘national game’. However, now the AFL has picked up it’s game – the International Cup places PNG amongst the top nations outside of Australia – Mal Michael has much of the limelight that previously Bai had held. And the game is once again very popular. Ebbs and flows.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_rules_football_in_Papua_New_Guinea
“In the 1980s, it was reported that Aussie Rules was the most popular code of football in the country, with competitions in all major population centres.
The late 1980s saw the popularity of rugby league rise in PNG, aided by extensive television coverage (backed by media interests and at the expense of coverage of the then VFL or any other high profile Australian Rules competition) and interest in the Rugby League State of Origin series involving nearby Queensland.”
Anyone want to talk about media mafia again?
note also – 5K attendance at the ‘99 GF Wests vs Koboni in Port Moresby.
http://www.afl-png.com/
re RL:
well, check the quality or lack there of (including lack of sources and references)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_league_in_Papua_New_Guinea
Look – RL with apparently 10K registered adults is still well ahead of Aust Footy claiming only around 2k registered adults. RL claim to have 50% participation through the schools – but, then only claim 5K registered juniors ages 12-18. That’s interesting.
Anyway – to me, it looks like PNG never has been a ‘given’ for any particular code – and, perhaps there might finally be brewing a proper fight for the place. The AFL had better be serious about it now – because, during the 80’s the RL folk got a bit of a free bight at the cherry. However, if the result is that the AFL is stronger nationally in Australia than the NRL then the AFL might claim they were right to drop a focus on PNG.
However – value for money in developing nations – part of the reason the AFL are serious in part re. Sth Africa (parts there of) and should be serious in part re. PNG.
Interesting off the RL WC website “A goal of the PNG Rugby League is to have 120 players participating in the NRL and Super League in England by 2010. ”
————
Let’s keep all this a bit in perspective. Aust Footy has about 30K regisered players in the state of Tasmania. PNG has a population of over 5 million, and people are jumping up and down about claiming 10K registered RL adults?? There’s still a bit of room to move there – I’d suggest. Wouldn’t it be cool if PNG could one day have 50 NRL and SL players, 20 HAL players, 30 AFL players, or something along those lines……who knows. Since they don’t necessarily need to be the stand alone pro-league – but, rather feed into Australian talent pathways – in a sense, the sky is the limit for the local kids.
Redb said | March 26th 2008 @ 9:56am | Report comment
Midfielder,
Your voting rights have been withdrawn.
you said:
“My problem ……………with your various statements is you wish to claim great gains in international AFL, ”
I haven’t and don’t claim any great gains. I only comment and repeat: “there is a small and growing presence of Australian football being played in various countries around the world that is organicially driven by expats but with a growing number of locals having a go.”
you said:
“AFL seems to be followed by some more like a cult by some, very few people in NSW & QLD share that view on sport and will be turned off AFL types pushing adgendas down their throat,”
Australian football supporters are passionate about all aspects of our game. This passion drives huge crowd support and interest, it is a great strength. Older NSW folk (I find QLDers far more accepting of all codes) have an anti-Victorian mentality, “mexicans” , from a psychological perspective what you perceive as pushing an agenda is merely pure prejudice against anything “Mexican”.
THE JOKE… is perceived Melbourne media bias, there may well be Melbourne bias in Melbourne press, but you can’t seriously suggest that the Sydney press is any less biased and is in fact much more agrressive in its rhetoric. Don’t take my word for it, open you eyes and visit the Daily Telegraph sports sections or have a read of Phil Gould and Roy Masters in the SMH. Rugby league barely gets a negative mention in the Melbourne AFL press.
it is pure indifference.
cheers
Redb
Michael C said | March 26th 2008 @ 10:15am | Report comment
I reiterate points relating to drugs in sport to indicate the over negative view portrayed via BOTH Sydney and Melb media AGAINST the AFL – and the Melb media indifference/ignorance/or deliberate non-reporting of Anti NRL information.
i.e. at the time where the AFL was getting flak for being apparently ’soft on drugs’ but having at least a competition wide standard – with obligations and methods regulated – that was and is still supported ardently by those involved in health and drugs out in the community – -
at that time one Mitchell Sargent was sacked out right by his club (one of a handful of NRL clubs with a stated ‘zero tolerance’ policy – - which being a voluntary policy by said club held no obligations or standards/methodology or procedure or reporting etc). Within 2 weeks he was snapped up by the Newcastle Knights – who DID NOT have any such policy.
And the NRL sat by doing nothing – because they had NO policy, no competition standard. The NRL was soft on drugs by having NOT done anything serious at the competition level to tackle the issue.
And yet, the Melbourne media ignored (or were blissfully unaware of this) and kept going for the AFL for actually having a policy and some level of consistancy and treating the issue as a health issue. Maybe there was a greater politcal agenda?
And – the Sydney media have had a field day in bashing the AFL on this topic, and running stories on Ben Cousins – - and then along comes poor Andrew Johns and don’t we feel sorry for him and haven’t the Newcastle Knights somehow escaped being investigated in the way that the West Coast Eagles have just been. There can be no coincidence that the Knights officials in some respect were or must have been aware of Johns’ issues – and that is the club that was willing to take on Sargent from the Cowboys.
But – again, Melb media – really don’t care. It really doesn’t matter or News Ltd don’t want it over publicised, and in place, we get silly little profile pieces on the Storm boys, and one dimensional game preview and review – previously by Karl De Kroo who wouldn’t print a single negative ’slant’ on anything.
——
and it was still the Sydney media – via Ch.9 and Ch.7 in 2006 and 2007 respectively when each was an AFL broadcaster – it was their supposed sports gurus in Cameron Williams and Jim Wilson/Mark Beretta who in each instance agreed and confirmed the absolute falsehood that Wendall Sailor (tested positive via MATCH DAY WADA testing) would still be playing in the AFL with no one knowing of his positive test. Absolute falsehood. AFL is signed on to wADA. And we all know how useless WADA testing really is………….couldn’t pick up Andrew Johns, or Ben Cousins or any of the 20 odd AFL players who have been done outside of competition for illicit drugs. And for anyone to suggest that Jim Wilson just plain didn’t know – that’s wrong – he has been the News Ltd front line Herald Sun story teller on this topic – - – the Herald Sun is a wonderful tool of fiction writers.
——
so – stop crapping on about Melbourne Media bias – it’s a tired old line that has at very least NO recent currency.
Crosscoder said | March 26th 2008 @ 8:42pm | Report comment
MichaelC
You stated you don’t see how the exhibition match relates to the local competition>How about the fact that Jacksonville has a team in the local AMNRL competition.If that doesn’t bear relevance then I am Barry Hall for heaven’s sake.The AMNRL aim to further expand in Florida.It the match had a twofold purpose as an exhibtion to assist the local AMNRL and a warm up match for both Leeds and Souths to prepare for their competitions.Crowe publicly stated so.
Because Michael if there had of been a plethora of expats living in Jacksonville and surrounds there would have been more expats attending.Crowe himself stated he was surprised at the number of locals in attendance,as did the Leeds management (the Pom team involved in the match). You were the one going on about the numbers of expats in attendance ,well I am sorry to inform you there were a large number of locals not my view BTW.I couldn’t give a rats whether there was 10,000 there ,the ground was chockablock and if it had been fine earlier they wouldn’t have had room,as it was about capacity.Listen to the comments of South’s officials,listen to Crowe,listen to Hetherington,listen to Howland.Your coloured glasses are fogging up mate.
Most of what you have seen !where is the existing ru infrastructure that rl hangs it hat on in France?.There has been decades of animosity between the codes,and only of late has that simmered down.Where was the ru infrastructure in Lebanon,for the Lebanese rl to start up,there was none.Where is the existing ru infrastructure in Sth Africa involved in rl.i have stated the SARL wants players born and bred and developed playing rugby league not union. Where was the ru infrastructure in PNG for rl.Do you know the Italian ru helped kill off rl in italy in the mid 20th century.They are now getting the game back into that country.To assume that without rugby union,rl would be struggling ,shows you know little of the history of the 2 codes.There has been some cross code work,but it pales into the scheme of things.
A parasite draining ru ! what are you smoking.Strange! rl players in England are being poached by wealthier rugby union clubs,rl players have for decades been poached by rugby union in France.There are also soccer pitches in the UK.I have attended a rugby league challenge cup final at the Old wembley stadium(insert soccer stadium) and watched a rl match at a soccer stadium in Manchester.
You need to do a wee bit more research.
As far as R Crowe is concerned,you would be the first to jump up and down if he had been on TV promoting AFL in the states.His involvement appears to miff you a bit. Judging by your comments you again know zilch about the work that went into the Jacksonville match.Maybe you should look at Rugby League World magazine,and RLreview because sometimes other sites can be outdated or reporting old information.one minute there are 5 teams in jamaica ,then 6 teams.France is changing all the time ,as is the UK.
My 2 cents worth for anyone to claim the Melbourne media is not biased left me choking on my cornflakes.One need only look at the amount of column space the Sydney media(print andelectronic) gives all codes,compared to their Melbourne counterparts(even when the Swans were getting abysmal crowds less than 10,000.Rest assured even Sydney journalists reckon Melbourne is a different world when it comes to sport reporting.I visited Melbourne fora sales conferences a couple of years ago,and nothing has changed since,except the Victory soccer reporting..
And for anyone to claim Andrew Johns was given a decent ride,they overlooked the grilling he got live on TV,the public humiliation in his home town Newcastle where he was treated as some kind of god,the letter writers in the newspapers
who served it up to him.We waited along time for Cousins to provide some sort of apology,and he escaped a public grilling.
The media in Sydney reports on the slightest out of the usual incident by a rl player ie being at a nightclub at 1pm ,or having a drink with a few others a couple of days before a match if there is a booze ban.They even have a section in one of the papers ,chasing any snippet of info on players.They are not protected species by any means.,some of course act like idiots at times.
Redb said | March 26th 2008 @ 9:07pm | Report comment
Crosscoder,
Sydney media not biased. your credibility is shot to pieces. Next thing you’ll tell us about the preponderance of WMD in Iraq.
have a look at the Daily telegraph, if that is not an NRL mouthpiece then I’m Carmichael Hunt.
this is not a horse race you can take the blinkers off.
Cheers
Redb
Crosscoder said | March 26th 2008 @ 9:33pm | Report comment
RedB.
i am no big fan of the printed media ,to put things in perspective.
Suggest you open your peepers occasionally or book for an annual checkup,on the matter of bias.Look at the amount of space AFL gets in the Telegraph.The fact that same paper calls itself the Official swans newspaper,the fact that journalists like Rebecca Wilson has columns of space praising the Swans(funny she a Swans ambassador),praising Paul Roos,talking about how her kids love attending Swans’ games.Give us a break mate,you are going downstream without a paddle.
The Telegraph actually spends a fair amount of its time,writing stories on rl player atrocities whether big or small,exaggerated or true. The criticism of the players and club management and at times administartion hsa been well publicised.It averages on the Sunday about 5 pages on rl,3 on AFL.This is the mob that is 50% owning the NRL.Check the amount of soccer coverage,the amount of S14.they deserve the coverage IMO.
if you think the News Ltd journos in Sydney are NRL mouthpieces,check the criticism Rothfield,and others who quite correctly rip and tear,when players carry on like idiots,carry on when players are injured in shoulder charges.
The Heralld gives the same coverage or thereabouts on a sunday,and they sure as hell aren’t News Ltd.Danny Wielder serves up any bad or good news .Ask Roy Masters of the Herald about bias in the Vic media toward sport.
If you think the Melbourne media is balanced,then I am a teetotaller.One of your best.
Michael C said | March 26th 2008 @ 9:41pm | Report comment
Crosscoder -
And the biggest stories in the Melb footy media over the last 2 weeks have been around Brendon Fevola caught peeing, and Kane Johnson caught peeing.
The irony that re drugs, this time last year we wanted more players to be caught peeing.
The Melb media just snaffles this rot up……oh……and so does the Sydney media……….I think you’ll find there’s more common ground than you give credit for.
I think the difference is you hear more about the AFL ‘bad boys’ up there than we hear of the NRL bad boys down here. I’m not sure if you’re lucky or what?
Fiji – no RL without RU. France – another story with heavy politics – I’d never dare go anywhere near that one or Italy either.
[now - be aware that you are NOT necessarily the originator of some of the points that I refer to below - but it ties together some of my points!!!]
Congratulations on 12.5K to an exhibition match – it’s as useful as a capacity crowd at the Oval for AFL practice matches for the local Aust Footy leagues in and around London and the UK in general. And allowed locals to play before a crowd of about 19K. Likewise, the NAB cup game in Dubai, allowed locals to play before the crowd, likewise the Swans vs Roos in LA 3 years back at an less than perfect venue packed out with 3.5K but allowed young Scott Fleming to come down from Canada and train with the Swans for a day – - and now he’s 3 years on in QLD having a crack at the ‘big time’.
So – thankyou for stressing the value of such events so strongly – because – for those who suggest the AFL is wasting time, money and resources with games overseas – do I have your permission to present your arguments in support of the Jacksonville game????
Your comments around 5 or 6 teams – that’s the whole point – it’s in the very early phases – and the next 10 years will dictate how it goes. Here and there with financial backing – something will come of it. However, 5 teams is not an international powerhouse country make. Good luck on the path. I’ve asserted that there are countries with an Aust Footy presence of 5 or 6 teams or more plus juniors – and for anyone to suggest that the AFL should ignore those countries and in the same breath claim 5 or 6 teams in a few countries as evidence of RL succesfful expansion sounds to me as rank hypocrisy.
btw – I really, really feel sorry for you Rugby supporters – there is so much ‘anger’ out there with the whole RL vs RU thing. Such that even WWII politics is seen to be fully reflective of the code struggle rather than the code struggle being reflective of the prevailing politics of the day. It doesn’t give much hope for Peter Lewis’ desire for a re-union.
Midfielder said | March 26th 2008 @ 9:43pm | Report comment
To All
Early estimates have the match between Australia & China as the most watched TV event in the history of TV in China maybe just pipping the match against Japan.
All over the press in China over the last few days we have been called the Goldern Kangaroos.
Yes it has been pushed to the back of the Australian media………………..but people with influence know how it has been received in China, they took us to 1,900 meters, grew the grass long, most of Chins watched, we had over half the team out, China in training for this match for close to four weeks and with great guts, skill, and excellently coached we got the point.
League…………Union……………AFL…………..try to go even close to what the Socceroos achieved today.
I watched the match at the Blacktown Workers Club along with I guess about 80 or so others the crowd kept growing as more people had left from work, and it was a very football savory crowd.
I wish all the luck in the world to the AFL and their international plans………………but give us a break just once…………and admit it…………….to stop China and have their press calling us the Goldern Kanagroos is not half bad.
Michael C said | March 26th 2008 @ 9:58pm | Report comment
Midfielder -
congrats to the undermanned Socceroos – I drove home hearing these almost breathless ’score’ updates on SEN – - and, almost laughed each time when the over excited fellow in answer to what’s happened replies – “still no score”…..and I’m thinking, fine, nothings happened. Because, how good you’ve looked doing nothing has little to do as to whether you fatigue in the last 5 mins and let just one goal through. Finally, with time up – I could understand the ‘delight’ at the scoreline.
Good on the Golden Kangaroos though. that’s not half bad.
Hopefully – though – it has nothing whatsoever to do with Aust Footy going overseas in small ways – or – alternately – it might help by raising the profile of Australia….
Crosscoder -
and we have The AGe as the official paper of Melb Victory and Herald Sun as the official paper of the Storm. Big deal. What’s your point?
The fact is that SFC draw what, 14-15K crowds once a fortnight. Waratahs draw about 20K odd. In a way too short season. And Sydney – as big a city as it is – has a very large AFL state ex-pat population – - maybe they have it roughly right – the 3 pages – maybe they’ve aimed specifically to capture that demographic. It’s still a case that how many of the biggest regular season club match crowds were the Swans?
If you don’t like that paper – don’t buy it – if that’s enough to turn you off – then the SMH is probably for you – aren’t they the official paper of the FFA?
You’re sounding like a frustrated whinger at present. It’s the age of the internet – if you want the information – go and get it!!!
Crosscoder said | March 26th 2008 @ 11:31pm | Report comment
Michael C
if you think the Sydney media gives huge attention to any trivial by comparison for AFL atrocities you are kidding.Yes Wayne Carey,yes Gary Ablett,yes Fevola,yes Ben Cousins but othe than that you would be lucky to get a column about a couple of inches if you can find it tucked away in the centre of the paper.You might get the telegraph to do that,and the Herald just ignores it.
John Anderson the AFL guy on Fox seems to have a fair idea of what goes on re NRL atrocities on occasions.After reading the sydney papers for a couple of decades I have a fair idea of the lie of the land.
I have already stated there are occasions where union and rugby league may have fed off one another.In the scheme of things France is a damn side bigger than Fiji and any of the PI ,ditto England ditto PNG.FYI I played 5 years of union and one of rugby league,so I don’t come from a position of ignorance.You asserted that without rugby union,rugby league would not have grown internationally.I am saying based on the barriers rugby union placed on rugby league in a few countries,based on rugby union trying to destroy and succeeding in one,they have done reasonably well.You obviously know nothing of the conflict between the codes in say the Cook Islands-ask a K Iro,It has since been resolved.if you think rl intnl development has been all beer and skittles,you have no idea whatsoever.
The comments about Jamaica was simply to spell out your reliance on certain sites,which at times are outdated.Did I suggest it was a power house – 6 teams in Jamaica is excellent, is not like 6 teams in Russia sheesh.. ?Nothing more nothing less.The Fiji local competition will be televised there and there world cup team will also be televised there.Also at this early stage quite a number of TV stations overseas are taking on boards the RLWC2008.Yep that is farcicial according to some AFL types LOL.
I have stated,but appears you conveniently overlooked the fact that any code has the right and responsibility to grow its game.I also have the right to state,that a code has to be careful where it throws or exhibits its games,without the follow up,without the profile of a national team and withoiut the competitiveness of a team that goes with it. Some argue the Hong kong union 7s is just a p…. up,others the AFL at the Oval ditto.I prefer not to get involved in that debate as I have been to neither.
.It wasn’t that long ago that the Kangaroos played the US team.A team representing each country.One team against the best rugby league team of another.
If you bother to check a publication such as RL World January edition,you get a complete intnl programme up til the end of August 2008. Comps involved in England,France,Wales,LebanonCook islands,Fiji,ISerbia,Samoa,Ireland,Tonga,PNG,South Africa.Some of these countries take on the junior Kangaroos .
In addition to the RLWC there will be a student world cup in July,a Police one,a Defence Force one and a womens one.
I guess if one code had tried to destroy and succeed in having AFL banned in Oz,not to use the name Australian in its name,you might be at tad miffed,especially wehen you have you assets nicked and handed over to the competing code.As iI stated i played both .
Crosscoder said | March 26th 2008 @ 11:56pm | Report comment
MichaelC.
The point is patently obvious the Telegraph has given, continues to give a daily repeat daily coverage of AFL in its paper.The Herald Sun would not devote 1/10 the coverage to the Storm (and they pay bread and butter fiinancial backing) >the ages contribution to S14 and Rl hardly inspiring.
The coverage of AFL hasn’t just happened overnight,they have had a fair go since the early 80s,and continue to do so.
We had people on radio whinge about AFL coverage in the 80s,when they were getting 1-1/2 pages ,and you are having a go at me .If that is your best shot,you are firing blanks. I am not arguing whether it is too much or too little.It is in my opinion and in the opinion of others that the Sydney media is less biased by a long shot on sport than Melbourne.If they were the same as the age or on occasions the herald sun,I wouldn’t buy them.
Talk about a cop out use the internet he says,what do you think I do,send smoke signals?.I also buy papers not only for sport ,but for international news ,foreign affairs,politics and business.I buy historical books on rugby league and union.Its called a rounded education.
The old whingeing argument is thrown up,when someone is devoid of ideas.Figures.
Crosscoder said | March 27th 2008 @ 12:07am | Report comment
MichaelC
The point is bleeding obvious,that AFL has received since day one continuous about 1-1/2 pages and now about 3 in the Sydney media .Good luck to them and soccer and the S14 and rugby league gets its share.But to try and compare a fairly balanced Sydney media by comparison to the at times 10 -13 pages on a sport in Melbourne and the rest at times the crumbs is laughable.
Use the internet he says,so I use smoke signals for info? You are firing blanks.
I buy newspapers for finance,business,world news,politics.The fact I stated Sydney papers give codes a good run particularly AFL,why the hell should I suddenly stop buying them.If you stopped buying a newspaper because there was something you didnt like,the media would be penniless.
When you threw up the tiresome whingeing argument,I knew it was time for my sleepy bye,as you are becoming devoid of ideas.
Redb said | March 27th 2008 @ 7:45am | Report comment
There are types of percevied Melbourne media bias that either soccer or rugby league supporters tend to beleive.
1. Too much coverage of Australian football (AFL).
2. Bias against other codes of football.
The first is what some here mostly are agruing about. The media give the pubblic what they want., if that is 24/7 AFL news then that is the reality of Melbourne. Interstate people who don’t understand Melbourne’s appetite for footy think we are all brainwashed as if we ‘ve lived in a Matrix type world or in a cocoon like in the movie ‘The Truman Show’.
The second relates to several pieces which mostly soccer folk take offence to as some Melbourne journalists take aim at soccer. They are a bit thin skinned. As given an opportunity to deride AFL its boots and all. In saying that, there have been a few writers who have got it wrong about soccer. But that also happens in other codes by other codes journalists. The percentage of anti- other football code articles is tiny compared to the total media output, its just they attract all the attention.
cheers
Redb
Michael C said | March 27th 2008 @ 8:27am | Report comment
Crosscoder -
you’ve probably answered your own question – if you’ve had people on the radio since the 80s whinging about the lack of coverage – then, there’s certainly a vocal demand.
We haven’t had that for NRL in Melbourne. There is plenty of scope, there’s a 24 hr sport radio talk back station that features Wally Waldron and used to broadcast NRL matches – - but, there’s just not the demand. THat’s nobodies fault – that’s just the way it is – and that’s why the 10-11K Storm avg at Olympic Park doesn’t inspire confidence that simply a change of venue wil be the answer to their lack of crowds. (it may be – but, the demonstrative evidence that it WILL be is NOT there).
In Melbourne – well, there are 9 AFL clubs, there’s Geelong, there’s 6 interstate clubs as well of which 2 have a Melbourne traditional heart, then there’s Storm and NRL in general. Storm get probably a page a day if there’s anything to print. Again, apart from Collingwood – that would stack up pretty damn well.
The rest of the NRL – - again, there’s obviously NOT the demand. Not the lobbying that would tip the balance. Perhaps Sydney is a product of it’s becoming (or claiming to be) the financial capital and thus has drawn in many folk from interstate – there are perhaps more and more influential AFL ex-pats in Sydney than NRL in Melbourne for example.
If so – then, that’s the way it is.
and again – we don’t have NRL knocking articles (though the opportunities are many), and we haven’t had a media led code bashing campaign like the current NRL friendly ‘AFL WAR’ rot coming out of Sydney.
John Ryan said | March 30th 2008 @ 1:28pm | Report comment
Here we go again only this time little Sir Echo starts by saying the Article is a troll post,then after a bit of comment in comes Michael C to churn out line after line in defence of a perceived slight to AFL,you got to remember these two are both Victorians,and being exposed to anything other than AFL is a huge culture shock, and the lads are struggling to deal with it.
In AFL land you are brainwashed from an early age about which sport to follow what team to follow ect,and as I said its a bit of a blow to find out that not everyone in Australia agrees with you.
Its kind of the same as another article on this site about AFL and NRL and a bloke who changed to NRL from AFL Sir echo and Michael C jump in and post realms of stuff which apart from the odd threat from Sir Echo is just a rehash of what he says elsewhere,thank Christ its not a paper cause between the two of then they would use half of Tassies trees in there ramblings,stick to Big Footy boys they will accept what you say with reservation.
Theres no bias in Melbourne Media,and Pravda and Isvestia were not the mouthpieces of the old Communist Party of the USSR
Crosscoder said | March 30th 2008 @ 2:31pm | Report comment
RedB
We don’t need to live in a cave to know about AFL in Melbourne,and its grip on the city and state.Some of us get to travel interstate. I am simply comparing it to a cosmopolitan type sporting city Sydney( where the press gives all sports a fair go,regardless of their popularity ).eg If the AFL cracks 3 pages and the NRL 6,one could assume that NRL is only twice as popular as rugby league or AFL as popular as rugby union.That is pure rubbish of course .
As Sydney sport radio and talkback sport radio is dominated in winter by rugby league,a little rugby union and soccer and next to no AFL.If the Tv ratings in Sydney for rugby league on FTA leave AFL in its wake,and rugby union is consigned to Pay TV ,then one would suggest all codes are given a good run by the print and electronic media.Good luck to them,and good on Sydney for not being biased.
We are not generally brainwashed at a young age(that is must be this code),but parents usually choose soccer at a young age ,then rugby league or union becomes more popular as the kids become teenagers,and this has been the case for decades.The school fields can be used for all 3 codes.
Crosscoder said | March 30th 2008 @ 3:06pm | Report comment
MichaelC
If you think there has been demand for AFL on Sydney radio for years there hasn’t been. Radio 2UE tried it and dumped it,there was stuff all demand.The AFL even when the Swans play gets swamped on live FTA,by some very ordinary programmes.Imagine the demand or lack of for the remaining AFL clubs, sweet zilch.That is the way it is in Sydney,despite the hype thrown up by Demetriou.
How many years in Sydney did it take for the Swans to get decent average crowds,they had crowds below 6 figures at times,yet that code has been in NSW for one hundred years.If wasn’t for Willessee and friends ,the Swans would have been on death row.The AFL has been into the schools for years in Sydney,the Storm really pushing that area
in the last couple of years.Get back to us after 25 years Storm existence and a decent stadium.
Ofcourse there are people from interstate,Melbourne and Adelaide ,who would attend the Swans matches.There was also a little thing called a Super league war.
Stroke the other one,we have Demetriou on one occasion a couple of years ago,give the NRL a
serve for player behaviour,stating this is a rarity in the AFL.What happens within 48 hours ,AFL players stuffing his theory.The same bloke,made the point in the early stages when he mentioned the millions the AFL were going to pour in on development in NSW and Qld.We are out to be the number one and indicated it was a war for the talent available.I have listened to some of those clowns on the Insiders,serve it up to the NRL and usually NRL journos Magnay or Masters are outnumbered.Patrick Smith has bagged the NRL on many occasions.
I will repeat what John Anderson the AFL reporter of Fox stated”that is is usually the bad incidents in the NRL that get reported in Melbourne”.Brian Taylor has stated something similar on the same programme.
It happens both ways,to suggest otherwise is fanciful.
JASON ANDREW TOPPIN FROM BORONIA VICTORIA AUSTRALIA said | March 30th 2008 @ 4:13pm | Report comment
IF SYDNEY WAS HALF THE SPORTING CITY YOU CLAIM THEY ARE THEY WOULD ATTEND THEIE CHOSEN CODE RUGBY LEAGUE MORRE THAN THEY DO>
MELLBOURNE IS RENOWNED AS THE SPORTING CAPITAL OF THE WORLD.
SYDNEY SWANS GAMES IN SYDNEY HAVE MORE PEOPLE ATTEND THGEM THAN YOUR RUN OF THE MILL RUGBY LEAGUE GAME!
AND ANOTHERE THING MELBOURNE HAS A DIFFERENT CURTURE TO SYDENY.
REGARD
JASON
JASON ANDREW TOPPIN FROM BORONIA VICTORIA AUSTRALIA said | March 30th 2008 @ 4:26pm | Report comment
REDB,
LET ME SAY THIS TO YOU RE YOUR POST CLAIMING THAT SYDNEY IS THE SPORTING CAPTUAL OF THE WORLD.
MELBPURNE HAS TEN AFL TEAMS, ONE NRL TEAM, ONE ALEAGUE TEAM, TWO BASKETBALL TEAM & ONE NETBALL TEAM THOUGH AFL IS OUR MAIN CODE OF CHOICE WE EMBRACE THE STORM, THE VICTORY
Redb said | March 30th 2008 @ 6:13pm | Report comment
Crosscoder,
Sydney media is biased. You can’t see beyond your own bias, which is hilarious as this is what you accuse Melbourne and Melbournians of. It is extremely arrogant of you to generalise that Sydney’s not biased, but Melbourne is. Yeah right. Both cities and media ‘can’ be biased.
I have travelled extensively up and down the east coast of Australia for the last 15 years and still do. Sport is followed more religiously in Melbourne than Sydney.- That’s a fact. Its not brainwashing, AFL has plenty of appeal as a spectator sport as does rugby union and soccer.
Redb
John Ryan said | March 30th 2008 @ 6:43pm | Report comment
Dear Jason two things learn to spell and don,t shout
Michael C said | March 30th 2008 @ 8:14pm | Report comment
Crosscoder :
I was refering to your comment :
“We had people on radio whinge about AFL coverage in the 80s,when they were getting 1-1/2 pages ,and you are having a go at me .”
Either you meant it or you were just padding out your argument with irrelevancies.
btw – Radio National or News Radio on the ABC has been an interesting servant over the years for ‘alternate’ sports into ‘foreign markets’………….obviously in modern internet streaming and pay tv environment – radio only really matters for the gardeners and those at the ground.
I don’t know why you’re on about ‘wealthy’ individuals ‘propping’ up a club…..the AFL is the current ‘land of people power’…….i.e. over 500K paid up club members who ‘own’ the clubs…….more than can be said for the NRL and it’s clubs or especially A-League clubs – - the private playthings of wealthy individuals – - even ruddy ‘Hollywood’ ex-pats. For you to lament that Willisee or any other individuals ’saved’ the club when otherwise it would have faltered…..well….really, what’s the problem with that. I don’t dispute that the AFL propped up teams, as the NRL is doing – - the capacity to continue to do so, or so sign off a club as established will dictate internal growth or ’strength’ – - presently Union is broke and going backwards, League is in no position of financial ‘certainty’ to expand. It’s not a criticism of the NRL that they ARE propping the Storm (via the News Ltd dividend) – it’s more an observation that beyond that, they only have so great capacity.
I do not dispute that the Swans were probably below the verge back in the early ’90s. After 10 years, the Storm – on field are so, so much stronger than the Swans – however, as is the want of the NRL – stuff all people sign up and stuff all attend and so that on-field strength (rather like my North Melb will traditionally low membership and crowds) is NOT translated into long term financial security. btw – how much would the Storm or any other NRL club love a membership of over 28K and average crowds of over 30K………if ever I lament that my club is almost a basket case – - the best thing is a dose of cross border reality.
btw – we won!!! And, Redb – - – LOSERS!!!!!! (gee Geelong looked very, very impressive).
Redb said | March 30th 2008 @ 8:46pm | Report comment
MC,
Geelong look the goods again in 2008. Awesome team.
cheers
Redb
Michael C said | March 30th 2008 @ 8:58pm | Report comment
Redb -
You almost feel sorry for someone like Savvas who is somehow living in the past if unable to recognise the modern brilliance of that Geelong outfit.
In the first final last year, the Rooboys ‘matched’ it with them as best as possible for the first quarter, I think we were even on goals and thankfully they’d sprayed a couple – - but, when challenged – then they put their foot down – the 2nd qtr of that game just blew us away – you could tell the Roos were resigned after that – it was as if the fighter acknowledging that he couldn’t win, so, he’d just try to avoid getting knocked out.
I’m certain the Roos were deflated when Coll lost to Geelong in the Prelim last year – I really don’t think they had it in them to confront Geelong again……..they are an awesome outfit, and for them to trade away Steve King, lose Nathan Ablett and suddenly along comes Ryan Gamble and Tom Hawkins – - good luck to them if they have an ‘era’ of success – they deserve it – - – and if the players all take a pay cut to keep the squad together……
Dave said | March 30th 2008 @ 9:21pm | Report comment
Just as l was feeling good about reading the sports sections of The Age without stories of AFL “spreading the gospel around the world” then today this ” ÄFL Looking to play in India”??? Yep it is part of the strategy to gain the interest of the West Asian population in Western Sydney?? Here is the article link: http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/afl-looking-to-play-in-india/2008/03/29/1206207499802.html
MC don’t recall you mentioning India as part of the AFL overseas???
It leads me to recall one famous sporting quote..”say it aint so Joe”
Norm said | March 30th 2008 @ 11:05pm | Report comment
Dave
maybe the AFL should play their next offshore game on the moon. They’ll attract the usual local interest.
JASON ANDREW TOPPIN FROM BORONIA VICTORIA AUSTRALIA said | March 31st 2008 @ 5:37am | Report comment
Good Morning everyoneI
like all codes of Football.
Australia can support aqll code of Football.
Regards
Jason
Michael C said | March 31st 2008 @ 6:12am | Report comment
Dave -
AFL and India – - I’m not so sure about the RealFooty article – that all sounds a bit like grasping at straws -
However -
India is a good fit for an attempt at targetted expansion because :
presence of cricket ovals
soccer is a very minor sport with only Kolkota as a bit of a ’stronghold’
Australia has an established profile
so – why not?
Redb said | March 31st 2008 @ 8:20am | Report comment
Dave,
I’m with you on this one. Its a bloody stretch to play an exhibition match in India as a way to grow the supporter base of southern Asians who reside in western Sydney! No one takes that stuff too seriously.
However, India itself could be a long term prospect as it plays cricket therefore has the ovals to support games of football. Get Shane Warne as an AFL ambassador and your could get some local interest.
cheers
Redb
Redb said | March 31st 2008 @ 8:24am | Report comment
MC
2007 prelim final between Geelong and Collingwood was one of the best games I’ve seen. Second biggest crowd I’ve been involved in at 98,002, great game of footy and incredible atmosphere (the highest 111,000 Rich V Coll GF in 1980).
cheers
Redb
Michael C said | March 31st 2008 @ 8:46am | Report comment
Jason of Boronia (is that THE Jason of Boronia??)
- – - a lot of real world logic says Australia is too small to support 4 codes – - however,
and the plight of Rugby Union in absolute financial distress at present supports the theory that perhaps 1 code will be forced ‘out’.
Each code has it’s perculiarities – none of the 4 has an absolutely similar global vs domestic balance. It will be interested to see how each positions itself to ’survive’ (flourish?) long term and how much each requires what sort of globabl vs domestic balance.
Dave said | March 31st 2008 @ 9:49am | Report comment
Michael C
Agreed with your points about AFL in India even though it sounds a roundabout, costly way of trying to gain support of a few people in Western Sydney!! Interesting that while football in India is still in a shambolic state they continue to draw 100,000 plus crowds at the Calcutta Derby match (as can be seen in this Time article): http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1668248,00.html
Must be some level of latent support for the game, if only they could get some of that Cricket money and level of organisation!
Redb
Although l no longer follow AFL closely l can beat your highest attendance; Haw vs St Kilda 1971 GF with 118,000 plus. One P. Hudson kicked 150th goal and missed several chances to break the record. l stood on beer cans to watch that in Northern stand. Rained all day and got drenched, ticket cost 50-60 cents from memory.
Redb said | March 31st 2008 @ 9:58am | Report comment
Dave,
I was in the northern stand (olympic) as well, behind a pillar on the middle deck. Only been to two GF’s 1980 and 2004.
The atmosphere is much better at the revamped G. last year with that prelim and the Anzac Day clash with 90K, two of the best games, incredible noise with the roof. Next best would be the 110,000+ at the Sydney Olympic stadium in 2000 when Cathy Freeman took the crowd around the track like a Mexican wave in terms of the roar of the crowd.
cheers
Redb
treizistes said | March 31st 2008 @ 11:08am | Report comment
AFL international expansion?
lol
Michael C said | March 31st 2008 @ 11:18am | Report comment
treizistes
the article headline of “AFL international expansion” isn’t really what most of us AFL types who are curious about Australian Footy overseas are really on about.
Don’t think of it as “AFL international expansion” – as that sounds like trying to grow the game at a professional level.
However, where organic growth HAS occurred – then, I reckon people like Redb and myself more advocate that there should be a mechanism to allow those playing overseas – where juniors are in place, especially – to be potentially exposed to the AFL talent pathway. That really should be a no brainer. And that AFL has taken steps to facilitate that – now, we just sit back and wait/hope.
However – South Africa DOES appear a concerted effort at some form of AFL HQ endorsed and ’sponsored’ ‘expansion’. And, one gains the impression that India might fall into that category too, one day. Whether the goal is a local semi-pro league eventually? No idea, no idea at all. There are probably some folk with best case and worst case scenarios mapped out and everything in between.
I presume the x-change rate of AUD in India is alright – as, the AFL don’t like committing money to these sorts of things – - which, makes you wonder how else it can happen!!!!
It does appear a ‘given’ that there WILL be a ‘native’ PNG graduate to AFL ranks within the next 3 years – that is the relatively ‘giant’ first step that any of this sort of discussion requires.
treizistes said | March 31st 2008 @ 11:58am | Report comment
Fair enough, but it will never grow much because there are hardly any Cricket playing countries on the planet, and we all know the AFL sponges off Cricket and needs their grounds to actually play the game.
Remember, AFL was invented to keep Cricketers fit over the off season.
Anyway, maybe the AFL should go back to the original Rugby rules it came from back in England, that would solve all the problems of fields and getting the sport into other countries.
Redb said | March 31st 2008 @ 12:11pm | Report comment
treizistes,
better get your facts straight, Australian football (AFL) was created with its own set of rules before rugby codified its rules of the game. Rugby comes Rugby school rules and like Eton Rules, Harrow Rules and other school they were playing quite different forms of ‘football’.
Eton went towards soccer where the ball is not picked up, rugby went to handling the ball. Australian football was and still is a very different game fro either of thpse football codes then and now.
Redb
treizistes said | March 31st 2008 @ 12:28pm | Report comment
Redb
Bull, the VFL was born in England.
tim said | March 31st 2008 @ 12:42pm | Report comment
treizistes
Basketball was invented to keep gridiron players fit during the off-season. Which has ended up more internationally successful? Bang goes that argument…
And don’t try to say that AFL wouldn’t expand throughout the world because it’s too hard to find some grass, paint a circle and put a few sticks at each end. If it gets popular overseas the stadiums with large seating capacity will be modified or built – they won’t be supplied before people ask for them, and they’d have nothing to do with any intial growth of popularity.
I’m not saying that AFL will achieve world domination, but the reasons you’re giving as to why not are ridiculous.
Crosscoder said | March 31st 2008 @ 12:55pm | Report comment
RedB.
Who is kidding whom.I have stated quite explicitly that the Sydney media gives all codes a fair go,at times more than a fair go.I also stated that indicated a media that can hardly be called biased,and indicated a cosmopolitan sporting media. I have also travelled extensively on the East Coast and Sth Australia both for business and travel and with due respect longer than 15 years,which hardly makes your position unique to be honest.
If you honestly think the Sydney media is as biased(sportingwise) as its Melbourne counterparts,then the Dalai Lama is a terrorist.
treizistes said | March 31st 2008 @ 12:55pm | Report comment
Hey, even small games in the US get decent crowds, they have the population.
And how is AFL supposed to get popular if they can’t find places to play on now even before you consider building grounds?
Basketball was born out of the YMCA.
The Birth of Basketball. BASKET BALL. In 1891 at the International YMCA training school in Massachusetts an instructor named James A Naismith.
There you go, Basketball is older than American Football Tim.
How you could say it was made to keep gridiron players fit is beyond me.
Michael C said | March 31st 2008 @ 1:03pm | Report comment
treizistes -
re venues – - that’s certainly one of the main benefits in Sth AFrica – one of the main early steps was establishing a partnership in the Nth-west province with cricket and govt.
In many countries, the venues leave much to be desired – often smaller fields and playing 9 or 12 aside variants. The major championships seek out decent proportioned venues. THere is however cricket played throughout the world – and the more that there can be mutual benefit clubs – the better for both parties.
AFL folk propbably should be hoping that 20/20 cricket, on the back of Indian bollywood millions – can gain a greater prominance for cricket outside of traditional bases.
treizistes said | March 31st 2008 @ 1:11pm | Report comment
Fair enough MC.
I still don’t know how Tim could say BB was invented to keep NFL players fit though.
tim said | March 31st 2008 @ 1:20pm | Report comment
treizistes
It’s good to see you can read Wikipedia, but that doesn’t make it true. You should probably reference these things if you’re going to quote them.
If you’d got as far as the gridiron entry instead of stopping at basketball you’d have seen that the first professional gridiron match was in 1892. To help you out – if they talk about gridiron being played in the 19th century, that’s the 1800’s, not the 1900’s. The basketball entry doesn’t specify that it was invented for gridiron, but again, Wikipedia doen’t know everything – there are other sources if you care to look.
As to how people would play AFL without a ground – well, football (soccer, whatever) is the most popular game in the world, yes? Does everyone who plays have access to a full sized ground whenever they want to play? No? But how do they have matches? They play in the backyard, in the streets, in parks – anywhere they can. That’s what it takes to get a sport popular, not stadiums.
treizistes said | March 31st 2008 @ 1:25pm | Report comment
Didn’t look at Wiki Tim.
And where soccer is now, ever thought back 100 years ago there was more room to play games?
And NFL was Rugby before Gridiron mate.
Michael C said | March 31st 2008 @ 1:27pm | Report comment
treizistes -
re. VFL was born in England.
blatantly wrong. Please see my response to Sledgeross on the Modern Rugby better than AFL thread.
in short – Aust footy is certainly derived from rules of various games played in England at the time – played either at village level perhaps once a year vs those played slightly more regularly at various schools and universities.
Each game is made distinctive by it’s set of rules and interpretations. That is what counts. The fact that the people were predominantly of english extraction once or twice removed – - -well, does that make everything that happened in Australia property of England? Does that apply up to federation?
And, anyway – VFL was not born until 1897 – -the first ‘association’ was the VFA.
tim said | March 31st 2008 @ 1:37pm | Report comment
Gridiron certainly came from rugby – no dispute here. My point is that it was around before basketball. The NFL (professional league) didn’t start until after basketball was invented, true – so what?
I’m sure that 100 years ago there was more land per capita in many countries. That doesn’t mean that the majority of people living in the cities had any more space to move, rather that there were greater distances between the boundaries of cities.
We seem to be getting sidetracked – the points are that why or how AFL was invented has no impact on how popular it will become 100 odd years later, and that there is enough room for international “grass roots” supporters of AFL to play now. The former seems so obvious that it needs no further justification, and the latter is well backed up when looking at the continuing popularity of soccer amongst youth in developing nations in Africa and South America who have little or no access to formal playing fields.
Crosscoder said | March 31st 2008 @ 2:05pm | Report comment
MichaelC
Irrelevancies sheesh ! it confirms exactly what I have been stating all along that Sydney media gives all codes including yours a fair go,as far back as the 80s-with 1 1/2 pages and a few of your mob on radio still reckon they needed more.You call it padding, i am telling it as it was.
Vocal demand ! on the radio by a few AFL hardheads(Harry Beitzel was one),which didnt; still hasn’t translated in demand to listening on the radio,or watching on TV.The Swans crowd yesterday was 24,500 againt PA.A perfect sunny day,for the first SCG match of the season,in a perfect ground to watch AFL,a fornightly event (if you will match),after 25 years of existence in Sydney also I understand little or no junior AFL is played in Sydney on the day of a Swans match.
In Sydney the NRL games(whilst the highest number was 21,000 odd for the bulldogs v Tiger’s match) spread over other grounds on different days.
Think you are a tad confused, one minute you are bagging private ownership by NRL fans and people like Crowe’s involvement,then when I mention Willessee saved the club(Swans)when it was on its knees,you say what is wrong with that.There is nothing wrong with that,you seem to be the one who can’t make up his mind.Who the hell is lamenting the fact Willessee intervened,it took a lot of guts.
The Broncos have News Ltd as a shareholder,doesn’t stop them getting crowds or being profitable,doesn’t put the fans offside either.Ask Manly fans or Warrior’s fans.The Warriors are privately owned.If it means growing the game professionally great.
No one is disputing AFL memberships,no one is disputing the crowds that attend.Memberships are a new thing for rugby league followers,probably why the Storm has one of the highest memberships in the NRL,because it is not foreign to Victorians.You see on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon or morning in Sydney,you can watch thousands of games of junior soccer,rl ,ru ,netball,and the odd junior AFL,for starters.Then you can watch a game of NRL live on FTA on Friday night,live 3 matches Fox matches on saturday night,1 live on sunday on Fox and 1 live on Monday night on Fox. The game is perfect for TV viewing admitted to by the Packers and Fox execs of this world.That is probably why the Brisbane Lions v Collingwood got only as per Tv ratings 96,000 in Brisbane and 14,000 in Sydney and hundreds of thousand watched the NRL live.People i know who have been to the Swans games,confirm the sport is not an ideal for TV.
I will repeat ad nauseum the Storm have only been pushing development in the schools for a couple of years(not 10 not 20 not 25),you are not going to get people born and bred in a code to change.You start when they are in primary school,and it is starting to bear fruit in schools.In SA as an example the number of teams playing rl (No NRL team BTW) in the tier A primary schools comp has more than trebled.I really don’t care what sport a child plays,naturally I would like them to play rl,however I would rather them get a few bumps playing sport than sitting on their backsides eating fastfoods and snorting up.
What will happen eventually in my view for what it is worth,market forces will decide the NRL format by rationalisation by relocation to Central Coast,or another Brisbane team ,or private ownership by a couple and new teams in Perth and Wellington and a fair way down the line Adelaide with a relocated side.In addition the next TV contract will be a big improvement on the last,which has been the subject of a lot of angst.
Millster said | March 31st 2008 @ 2:40pm | Report comment
Interesting analysis Crosscoder and I roughly agree. Using your thoughts as a base, I see a couple of things in my 5 year crystal ball…
1. Agree with a good TV deal next-up for NRL and I think this will fatally wound state/province level Union – S14’s TV deal will get worse by about the same amount that NRLs will get better (not only in $$ terms but also in overall attention). Football will be another beneficiary of this for (sadly) elitist reasons as the S14 crowd will not want to migrate to NRL. This will especially be so in Perth if the Western Force go down in flames. AFL may also get some positive leakage but is a bigger jump for RU supporters due to unstructured game strategy and easy / high scoring.
2. Agree that for a neutral, AFL is not the ideal TV game. Where I digress is that for a neutral I don’t think its a great live game either. You have to be born and bred into the culture to appreciate it, and that means being from VIC, SA or WA. I honestly think that AFL will REALLY struggle in Western Sydney and on the Gold Coast. The situation / critique with Melbourne Storm will be reversed and then some for those 2 teams (as it is to a very large extent already with the Swans).
PS: Tim’s argument about simplicity shouldn’t be underestimated. In primary school my local park was a kind of triangular wedge; certainly not an orthodox field. Yet with 2 old jumpers on the ground as goals, and a ball, my mates and I played half-pitch football most days which set us all up for both higher-level playing for clubs and for fervent support that has lasted the 30 years between then and now, and that shows no signs of abating.
Michael C said | March 31st 2008 @ 3:31pm | Report comment
Crosscoder -
well – gee, back in the 80’s the VFL had plonked a team in Sydney – more than what the NSWRL had done in Melbourne. Fair point??
the VFL had even played several ‘exhibition’ regular season matches in Sydney and even Brisbane around that time. Testing the waters for crowd response. I recall seeing my Rooboys go down to Hawthorn in ‘79??
What is the current capacity of the SCG with the current redevelopment works under way?
Perhaps, should the Swans draw large figures at ANZ stadium again this year – perhaps the main argument may be that the swans themselves ougth relocate to West Sydney…..
Are you implying that Melbournians don’t play and watch local footy in vast numbers too across the weekend? Just as in Sydney, the AFL is available widely via FTA and pay tv, and there are vast numbers of us local hacks out playing – for so many of us who ARE playing – the best we can manage is about 4 games a year to attend.
It was not an ideal first live attempt to go up against a QLD local derby – was it? A bit misguided perhaps.
JASON ANDREW TOPPIN FROM BORONIA VICTORIA AUSTRALIA said | March 31st 2008 @ 3:36pm | Report comment
Hi everyone,
I’m the Jason From Boroinia.
How did you know about me?
Go West Coast Eagles, Melbourne Storm Storm, Melbourn Tigers, Melboune Victory, Manchester United, Glasgow Celtic &, Wester Force
reegARDS
jASON
Redb said | March 31st 2008 @ 3:47pm | Report comment
Millster,
I’m not sure how many AFL games you’ve been to and accept you have every right to your opinion, but you can’t really judge the game on attending the Swans – Port match which i watched most of on the weekend. Whilst the Swans score did blow out, they still don’t play the game at the level that offers crowd enjoyment. Wait for a Geelong or Collingwood game in Sydney or even an Essendon. No-one has suggested that every AFL game will rock your socks, there are dull games as well jsut every otehr code. The Swans -Port game was just OK, Port played very poorly and offered little contest. It lacked zip and the hustle and bustle of ‘good’ games of evenly contested footy.
I think you do have a point about understanding foreign codes of football – the interference of refs/umps for example is often confusing (even when you understand the game) and thus this can detract from the spectacle. AFL is a high scoring game to a soccer or rugby fan, the scores seem , well cricket or basketball like. This is not something your used to.
cheers
Redb
Forgetmenot said | March 31st 2008 @ 4:11pm | Report comment
In my opinion football would be the best sport to play internationals with.
Think about the Japanese facing off against the Americans in a tense game with very close scores with a strong Japanese midfield up against giant American forwards. All this in a semi-final for a world cup.
Michael C said | March 31st 2008 @ 4:20pm | Report comment
The Jason of Boronia – famous for calling into SEN radio in MElbourne – and ardent in his wide and varied support – and enthusiastic promoted of one Jaymie Graham (WCE).
btw –
Millster
“The NRL derby was played on the 100th anniversary of the founding of Queensland Rugby League and was the highest rating show in Brisbane on Friday.”
The NRL game hoped for 40K and got a club record 50K attendance – a big effort – and obviously a very big night for RL in QLD. I’d be satisfied then that the Lions had 33K attendance on such an evening, and, perhaps getting beating 3-1 via TV ratings might have been near to the best realistically to be hoped for.
As it was, the game did 474,000 in Melb.
I do know which I’d be preferring to watch the last 20 mins of – the NRL game was a blow out and the AFL game was a rivetting 2 point classic with the home team saluting.
— btw – Port Adelaide DO tend to be about the worst drawing team on the road – - and, the lack of opposition supporters can make a game seem a little ‘atmosphere less’……..which, I understand why in a dominantly home crowd scenario – - supporters in soccer for example might take to singing and chanting to make up for the lack of opposition ‘roar’……..that’s why local derbies for ever and a day are the golden club matches to attend – - especially at a venue like the MCG – i.e. Coll v Ess when you’ve got about 40-50K of both clubs supporters out roaring each other……..sheer magic that. (even as a NOrth supporter I can grant them – Ess & Coll – that!!).
cheers
Millster said | March 31st 2008 @ 4:24pm | Report comment
Oh god…. someone has to ask it….
Forgetmenot – which football? (in answering please note the common conventions used as represented by the tabs structuring this website)
Assuming you do mean Football, I think Japan would thrash the USA as the midfield of Nakamura, Inamoto, Abe and co combined with a defence marshalled by Tsuboi and full of young guns mainly from Gamba Osaka would stifle Landon Donovan who is the US’s main creative attacker.
Millster said | March 31st 2008 @ 4:28pm | Report comment
Interestingly, as an aside, Japan has called up 47 players to international games over the past 12 months. 40 of those play in the J-League and only 7 in international leagues (2 in Scotland, 2 in Germany, and 1 each in Switzerland, France and Holland)
Start contrast to our Socceroo first XI…..
Michael C said | March 31st 2008 @ 4:41pm | Report comment
Forgetmenot -
sadly in both the 2002 & 2005 international cups the USA DID NOT meet Japan. No ‘battle of the pacific’ matches!!!! No ‘coral see classic’, no ‘Pearl’ of a game…..
Japan were clobbered by Nauru, lost narrowly to Great Britain (a very good result), clobbered by PNG (eventual runners up) and defeated by Denmark, then went down to Canada by 9 pts.
In 2005, Japan defeated Spain, lost by 2pts to Sth Af, got clobbered by ‘heavy weights’ NZ and Ireland and then back up again over Spain for the last place play off.
Sadly, being a bit ’shorter’ of stature, despite pretty good ground skills and determination – they really wanted for a bit wetter conditions – and were certainly found out against the taller Kiwis the day I saw them in action……
the US Revolution last time round did very well – coming 3rd over all – including a 1 pt loss to PNG – NZ went on to defeat PNG in the final.
PNG will be very determined to take the prize this year.
Crosscoder said | April 1st 2008 @ 8:33am | Report comment
MichaelC
Begs the question,if the Swans had not been a “basketcase” in Melbourne,would they have relocated in the 80s>Nup I would assume.BTW the Swans who were plonked,got huge publicity by a balanced sydney press showing Barry Round leading his players on a merry dance around the opera house.Then we had the lunch by the harbour at Lady Mary Fairfax’s house,with theplayers,all out in the press.
Nothing wrong with staging AFL matches as promotional work in Sydney or Brisbane.Rugby league did it in Perth when Parramatta played and got over 28,000,St George did likewise in adelaide with 25,000.Perth will be back in the NRL if the interest in their lower grade Jim Beam cup is anything to go by.
We also know the Nth Kangaroos played AFL matches in Canberra and the Gold Coast and the crowds did not impress AFL officials at either venue..
As part of the Super league war deal News Ltd insisted that a team be “plonked” in Melbourne,so they too have an interest in getting the Storm as a going concern.
The current capacity for the SCG with the works going on 32-35,000.
The Swans will probably draw a a large crowd at the event matches involving high profile Vic teams,with no AFL junior matches in opposition in Sydney and a decent influx of Victorians to boot.That has happened in the past,and has not translated into higher Tv ratings nor in fact larger crowds at the ANZ or SCG.Good on them with the crowd,proving once again my point a bigger venue tends to attract bigger crowds.
i am implying nothing, I am stating in Sydney and this has been the way for eons,people are involved in huge numbers watching their kids play sport in huge numbers,at times in opposition to NRL and soccer/union matches.They have conditioned themselves to be more Tv sport watchers than attendees,unlike Melburnians.Why I guess because NRL in particular translates perfectly as a TV sport.Another trait of Sydney NRL fans,they tend in the main to only go to their teams home game rather than the opposition’s home game, even if their team is playing.EG Cronulla,Manly Penrith,St George fans are not keen travellers.And I am one of those guilty ones.
Redb said | April 1st 2008 @ 8:44am | Report comment
Crosscoder,
One element of difference between Sydney and Melbourne turning up to sport I think is that in Melbourne it is just so easy to go to the MCG or Telstra Dome – they are central to the city and well serviced by public transport. Car parking is ordinary around the MCG though, Melbournians would know what it is like getting out of the MCG carpark after a big game, it can take an hour. I park at work and walk 20 mins.
I don’t think there is any difference re junior game attendance as I think Melbourne and Sydney are identical in that regard.
Why don’t away team supporters turn up? I mean there is always a bandwagon factor in Melbourne, where non club members turn up in numbers if their side is travelling well.
cheers
Redb
Michael C said | April 1st 2008 @ 9:20am | Report comment
Crosscoder :
I don’t feel like an argument – but, let’s be aware of a couple of things:
you said
“Good on them with the crowd,proving once again my point a bigger venue tends to attract bigger crowds.”
(well, certain logic supports that you can’t fit more people in than a grounds capacity – - although, somehow the maximum crowd at the old Waverley park was 90K with a capacity of about 75K…..anyway…..back to the point)
Season 2007 – a season of ‘record’ NRL crowds (well, on the back of an extra game each week equating to 24 more games than the previous seasons)
And, the biggest venue – Stadium Australia:
26 matches in regular season
total crowd of 425,135
average 16,351
maximum 34,315
then come the finals, a semi final with 50,621 and the GF 81,392.
For 26 matches the ‘build in and they will come’ theory doesn’t hold.
The AFL thus far at Stadium Australia : 18 games, total crowd H&A 852, 432, average 47,357
Finals 3, total 172,674 avg 57,558
Event match or not – that’s a pretty healthy picture compared to the NRL picture during an NRL ‘record’ season.
18 games and 3 finals over the journey compared to 26 games and 2 finals.
Now – the reality is that most of those games at that venue are night time matches – so, we aren’t even talking about whether local level games are played or not – that’s an irrelevant point to make.
SCG games – fine – again though, the swans in recent years have played an awful lot of Sat night matches – so, fine, competing competitions DON’T come into it. Appears to be common sense fixturing…….perhaps one of the few things the AFL has got right.
you said
” I am stating in Sydney and this has been the way for eons,people are involved in huge numbers watching their kids play sport in huge numbers,at times in opposition to NRL and soccer/union matches.They have conditioned themselves to be more Tv sport watchers than attendees,unlike Melburnians.”
LEt me tell you outright in Melbourne that for eons people are involved in huge numbers watching their kids play sport in huge numbers, at timesin opposition to AFL etc matches.
If ever you’d be conditioning to be a TV watcher rather than attendee – then Melb would be the place with it’s colder and windier winder climate. With less daylight hours then Melbournians would be LESS likely to sacrifice them by attending sports.
the reality is more based around the evolution of Melbourne in a more industrial suburban growth pattern than that of Sydney circa 1880-1950. That also comes back to the geography and radial access to a more central location (esp now that only the MCG and Telstra dome host AFL matches).
There’s enough written about how many more games of football were being playing in Melb vs Sydney towards the end of the 1800s and the far larger numbers of people engaged at community level, as participants and as watchers. Perhaps part of the key is that the first Rugby club in Sydney is listed as the 1863 establishment of the Sydney University Club – - retaining the regular English model of sports for the school boys. Melbourne, via the MelbourneFC developed football for the adults for recreation.
Melbourne – also, was evolving down a single code dominant path – unlike Sydney – esp. prior to 1908. Sydney was in a state of flux. It is not surprising therefore that Melbourne engaged the greater populous and therefore is able to support participation, attendance AND tv viewing as distinct to Sydney which never was nearly as ‘homogenous’ in such respects.
I grew up where we played country footy, cars around the ground, each car with the radio tuned in listening to the VFL from Melbourne, and the ressies boys in the back of the ute backed to the ground beside a 44 galloon drum with a fire burning and the smoke wafting across the ground………
…….and, I just wonder – - is AFL a better radio sport???
I often will prefer to be out in the yard soaking up that little bit of winter sunshine – doing some gardening and listening to the footy.
Michael C said | April 1st 2008 @ 9:29am | Report comment
additionally
via Fagan:
“The game of rugby was first played in NSW as early as the 1860’s, with Sydney University the first club formed in 1864 and a district competition was introduced in 1900. “
THat it took that long for ‘district competition’ to be introduced – probably says something. I’m flabbergasted – I’m not sure how to interpret that.
Spiro Zavos said | April 1st 2008 @ 10:08am | Report comment
There were rugby clubs in Sydney, roughly based on geographical areas but more strongly based on affiliations with work and school, all over Sydney. The model was the English model of teams like the Harlequins and Wasps. In 1899 a British team managed by a Cambridge cleric the Rev Matthew Mullineux tour the eastern seaboard playing three tests against Australia. Mullineux, unfortunately, was a diehard adherent of the amateur ethic. He convinced the NSWRU officials that the petty professionalism that was being practised successfully in Australia and NZ should be abolished in deference to the dictates of the Rugby Football Union, the England rugby union.
A grade system was introduced in 1900 to ensure that players played in their geographical areas and weren’t traded and bought by other clubs. This move was the beginning of the end, in my opinion, of rugby union as the dominant football code in NSW and Queensland because it alienated the battlers of the outer suburbs of Sydney and large towns like Newcastle, Brisbane and Ispwich.
Michael C said | April 1st 2008 @ 10:33am | Report comment
Spiro -
that’s interesting.
And when you refere to it as an English model –
a while back – when I researched private ownership – the entire list of EPL clubs (at the time) were privately owned by about 1921 and many somewhat earlier. However, mostly at ‘local’ community level.
It seems then that the “Melbourne” model of members based ‘regional’ clubs is a bit of a step away from the ‘traditional’ more English models and it also explains the Guys Hospital club references.
Hmmm, interesting.
Michael C said | April 1st 2008 @ 11:23am | Report comment
The following is lifted directly from :
http://www.worldfootynews.com/article.php/20080314171637171
It’s worth a read for anyone wanting to know about AFL ‘expansion’ of any type – Colin Carter has been a key figure:
—————
The Australian’s Chip Le Grand interviewed Colin Carter as he came to the end of his long stint on the AFL Commission. Carter was one of the key people behind the scenes who directed the evolution of the debt-ridden Victorian Football League through to the vibrant Australian Football League, he pushed for the continued expansion into new areas of Australia, and remains a strong advocate for investment in South Africa. The interview can be found here, but is reproduced below given that it is a rare insight into some of the driving forces behind the sport’s radical changes over the past couple of decades.
Just keep moving, says ideas man
Chip Le Grand | March 01, 2008
THIS is how Richard Colless, chairman of the Sydney Swans, describes the life cycle of a strategist.
The birth of an idea is often greeted with ridicule or apathy. Once the idea takes its first tentative steps, emotions harden into anger. Then once it is fully grown and vindicated, no one can remember a time when it wasn’t there. The same can be said of Colin Carter’s time in football. When Carter sat down more than 20 years ago to write the strategic manifesto known simply as the Blue Book, most of the ideas were seen as a threat to the very existence of football as it was known. They are now universally accepted as fundamentals within the national competition.
Carter saw an expanded competition with a salary cap and a draft and equal financial payments to the clubs. More contentiously, he saw weaker Victorian clubs either merging or relocating to survive. He saw a new team in South Australia and another in Western Australia. (If truth be known, he actually saw two in each state.)
Carter didn’t see everything. By his own admission, he didn’t think 10 clubs would still be operating out of Victoria this century. And no one foresaw the riches of broadcast money which now flow into football, providing the commercial lifeblood of the game. But as the AFL commission’s resident “big picture” man since 1993, Carter has witnessed an extraordinary realisation of his early football vision.
When Carter sat at his final commission meeting last month, he warned his fellow board members that the renewed push into south-east Queensland and western Sydney would be hotly criticised. He also knew his grand plans for football in South Africa were considered a “joke” by many in the game; as bluntly expressed recently by Hawthorn president Jeff Kennett.
But while there is no certainty that football will flourish in western Sydney or on the Gold Coast – much less in South Africa – Carter appreciates the greater risk of standing still.
“If we finish up in 20 years time with 14 of 16 teams below the Murray and 55 per cent of Australia’s population north of the Murray then I think people would look at the competition and say it is a bit of a joke,” he told The Weekend Australian.
“We also miss out on the extent to which public interest is created by rivalries and a sense of ownership. When you have got 16 teams skewed so badly, that is a bad structure.”
In a broad-ranging interview – his first and only, by Carter’s reckoning, since joining the commission 15 years ago – the Melbourne businessman and philanthropist spoke candidly about the forces driving the AFL into new areas, the near-hopeless task facing weaker Melbourne clubs of trying to match the financial clout of the bigger clubs, and the economic certainty that 10 clubs in Victoria will not survive indefinitely.
Carter also spoke passionately of his vision for a South African-based team before he dies, the hypocrisy of suspending players for marijuana use when alcohol abuse is a bigger problem in football and society, and nominated end-of-season breaks as the frontier issue for an expanded illicit drugs policy.
“We are hypocritical and the pollies are hypocritical because almost all the drug problems come from alcohol abuse,” he said, noting that of 35 first-strike positive tests by AFL players, 34 admitted to being drunk at the time.
“I am not soft on drugs. I have never tried drugs in my life and I think they are hugely damaging. But how can we rub someone out of two years for testing positive to marijuana when we have club presidents who get caught for drink-driving?
“We would like to make a further incursion into what most of the nation regard as a personal liberty; to test people in that high-risk time on vacation. I would have thought we would have a pretty sympathetic ear from the players to look at that but if the whole agenda is being run by people who say string ‘em up regardless of the facts, that endangers a sensible approach to it.”
Carter, a senior adviser to the Boston Consulting Group and a leading advocate for indigenous advancement through his work on Noel Pearson’s Cape York Institute, is best known within AFL circles as the architect of a succession of strategic reports; the 1985 Blue Book, the 2001 Carter report into game development and the most recent New Generation report.
Along with celebrated VFL reformers such as Allen Aylett and Ross Oakley and original commissioners Graeme Samuel, Peter Scanlon and Peter Nixon, Carter is a founding father of the national competition.
AFL chairman Mike Fitzpatrick described Carter as one of the most influential figures in the 150-year history of Australian Football.
Samuel, the economic rationalist who butted heads with clubs over some of Carter’s less palatable ideas, said the Blue Book and Carter report remained the twin “foundation stones” of the national competition and game development. But beyond the arguments and findings within these reports, Carter’s views on the game have rarely been aired outside commission meetings.
To assess Carter’s contribution to football is to map the evolution of the modern game from the dysfunctional, debt-ridden days of the old VFL to the powerful national competition which yesterday announced record revenues of $285 million and a new attendance mark of just over 7 million for the 2007 season.
The story begins in the executive summary of the 1985 Blue Book, which Carter helped produce as a consultant to the AFL. In it, he cites falling attendances, bankruptcy at clubs and charges of VFL and club mismanagement. He advocates national expansion not as a take-over bid for the Australian sports market, but the only way for VFL clubs to survive.
The story ends on this year’s pre-season trip to South Africa, with Carter witnessing first-hand the local fascination in the game. Carter for the past five years has lobbied for gradual increases in investment in game development in South Arica against resistance by some fellow commissioners and senior AFL executives.
“I was a sceptic, as were many of our executives,” AFL chief executive Andrew Demetriou said. “But we have all signed up to it now. We believe it.”
Remarkably, many of Carter’s views have remained constant throughout. The first is that giving a greater share of competition money to clubs will never address competitive inequities. As Carter explained, it just fuels inflation within the football market without addressing the underlying problem.
“The thing which drives competitive outcomes is not the absolute level of wealth but the relative level of wealth between clubs,” he said. “There is a mistaken belief that if the competition gets another billion dollars and that is spread around, that will change everybody’s circumstances. If you give the same amount of money to each club all you do is raise the cost structure.
“When I did that report in 1985, the average revenue of a VFL club was $3m and I was observing how it had come from $300,000-a-year in 1975. It is now $30mn and yet the same number of clubs are financially on the margin. I have always refused to believe that more money coming into the game saves clubs. All it means is Collingwood has more to spend, the West Coast has more to spend and North Melbourne has to spend the same amount keep up.
“Because Collingwood and Adelaide have four to five times as many supporters as the weaker clubs, unless you can figure out a way of changing that relationship – and it shows no sign of changing over my lifetime – it means that any idea that a weak club has to raise money can not only be emulated by a rich club but trumped. It also means the pattern that exists at the moment of the weaker clubs essentially being cross-subsidised by the others through special distributions will not change.
“The hard question is, if the gap is getting wider despite our equalisation stuff, how long is that a sustainable strategy? We don’t want clubs to die. I would prefer them to move or merge than die. I think the chances of having the same Melbourne clubs in 50 years time are zip.”
The 2001 Carter report into game development, written soon after the money from the AFL’s first broadcast rights mega-deal starting flowing into league coffers, identified western Sydney and south-east Queensland as the two most strategically important markets for the growth of the game. It also warned the AFL was underspending in those markets.
Collingwood president Eddie McGuire took heated issue with Carter over the AFL’s policy of salary cap concessions for Sydney and Brisbane but says Carter’s long-term view of the game was essential for its growth.
“Colin was able to take a helicopter view of football at a time when everyone else was in hand-to-hand combat to survive,” McGuire said.
The AFL’s speculative venture into South Africa, particularly the league’s decision to send three clubs into South Africa on community duties this summer and none into western Sydney, has sent mixed signals about football’s priorities. Carter said there should be none and that NSW and Queensland remain at the top of the AFL agenda.
He also insists South Africa is a long-term project worth pursuing, regardless of the scorn it invites.
“When you go to South Africa, you have cricket grounds, which solve a huge problem in most other countries for us. You have got a young population, most of whom have got nothing to do after they finish school. If you turn up with an organised program like Auskick, you get killed in the rush. They love our game; they are good at it.
“I am not asking the AFL to believe South Africa is the answer. But everyone who has been down there and knows something about footy reckons the talent is there. The business plan has 30,000 participants in two or three year’s time. If we are steady at it, I reckon we could have another South Australia or Western Australia in South Africa in 20 years time.
“We are spending half of one per cent on South Africa. I am gobsmacked by people’s scepticism about it. This isn’t part of an AFL strategy but I don’t find it at all improbable that we could have a team based in South Africa in my lifetime.”
Although Carter has stepped down from the AFL commission, he has not left football entirely. Apart from maintaining his fervent support for Geelong, the club he served as director before joining the commission, he has succeeded the late Ron Evans as chairman of the AFL Foundation, the league’s charity and philanthropic arm.
Redb said | April 1st 2008 @ 12:04pm | Report comment
MC,
A good insight into the AFL’s thinking on South Africa, I think tis worth a go. Would like to know more about western Sydney.
cheers
Redb
Crosscoder said | April 1st 2008 @ 9:04pm | Report comment
RedB
You hit the nail on the head ,with teams playing at the G or T Dome,all with easy access to public transport ,and decent access for vehicles.
The Sydney football stadium whilst a great venue for rl,is a nightmare for parking getting out,and not of course readily accessible to the rail.The ANZ stadium at homebush ,used by 34 clubs ATM,has the facilities,but for watching rl especially some distance away ,the players look like ants.
When you have teams such as Penrith tucked away at the foot of the blue Mtns,Manly on the nthn Peninsula,,the Sharks on the Southern fringe,St George Sth and Illawarra,the Tigers playing at Campbelltown Sth west fringe,inner city and the ANZ stadium,you can see its a mish mash of geographical spread,with in some places average suburban stadiia.
There is a huge difference in junior sport IMO in Sydney,junior soccer is huge,junior netball is huge,junior rugby league is large and junior rugby union has a lot of private school matches in progress,and other junior sports.
I would suggest that in Melbourne AFL junior football has a huge participation ,soccer I guess also has a large junior participation ,but the other codes barely appear on the radar.That in itself is a difference and may (as a guess influence choice)
We have junior rugby league teams complain that the NRL match of their local club,clashes with their local junior league.Pretty dumb IMO.
If I knew why away supporters didn’t regularly turn up ,I would be the first to advise the NRL.Sydney traffic which is an abomination may be a reason,the ability to watch matches live on FTA on a Friday night(why drive 60kms one theory),creatures of habit.
You get adjoining clubs such as the Sharks and St George playing at Toyota and you can get a full house(its a rarity though).Here the short distance factor must be a factor.
Crosscoder said | April 1st 2008 @ 9:50pm | Report comment
MichaelC
I don’t wish to repeat myself,as I responded to RedB with my views.
When you talk about NRL crowds,yes there are additional matches(as there are in the AFL),however the average crowd per match figure in the last 2 years have been the highest on record,sponsorship highest on record,merchandise highest on record,junior participation highest on record(with growth in all states and territories except of course Tassie).Throw in state of origin crowds,TV SOO ratings even in Vic,sponsorship,rl is moving along nicely.
Maybe you should get an idea of the ;low crowds and facilities in the 70s for rl to get an impression.
It is also incumbent on the NRL to pull their collective fingers out,and secure a better TV deal due to the extra matches on Fox,the double header live on FTA ch9 and the TV ratings which continue to deliver to the Sydney,Brisbane and regional markets in those states.Those states representing a fair % of the population.
I don’t know whether you have been to ANZ stadium,maybe you have.By the nature of the game AFL may be better to watch at that venue.I attended the stadium for the opening match when over 107,000 watched an NRL match(yes it was an event if you like),and from my view on the upper decks the players looked like ants.
Suggest you look at the numbers of kids surfing the beaches on saturday and sunday afternoons from Palm Beach to Cronulla at this time of the year and welll into May,to get an insight into the diversity of sport in Sydney.
I have been a season ticket holder for many years with my club,and only in the last couple of years due to family sport committments had to take a rain check.I try to get to a match whenever possible,and have purchased world cup tickets already.
Penrith,Manly,Sharks,Roosters don’t use ANZ as a home venue so it is relevant as to competing with local matches.Sunday matches and there are at least 2,and Saturday 5-30pm do interfere with local comps at times.
The build a purpose built stadium and they will come does hold up,just ask the Gold Coast Titans from Cararra to Skilled,just ask the Broncos.The ANZ stadium is not repeat not a purposebuilt soccer/rl/union stadium.The Sydney Football Stadium is but with lousy parking exits and away from the rail.
When at school I played rugby union on saturdays for 6 years,and never attended a sunday rugby league match,so there was conflict. I had to study.i actually attended union tests before rugby league club matches.Hence the Crosscoder moniker.
You are not Robinson Crusoe ,I used to spend some of my winter holidays in the bush,watching the local rl team play ,and listen to Frank Hyde the doyen of commentators on radio.Radio is good for all sport,its the imagination aspect.The open 44 gallon drum,with people sitting on the sidelines with blankets over the women’s knees,and the blokes in the cars,or sipping a tinny near the bar.Ah nostalgia.
Michael C said | April 2nd 2008 @ 9:05am | Report comment
Crosscoder -
Certainly, NRL, back in ‘87 avg sub 10K, AFL actually bottomed out that year sub 20K. A bad year for attendances!!! And, in the AFL most the suburban grounds were still in action.
However – you’ve had a fair serve at the Swans – for – drawing good crowds to the Sydney Olympic stadium – - and, then, you’ve also going all defensive on the NRL.
My point is that over 26 games in a crowd record breaking year for the NRL – the best crowd at that venue was low 30K. Surely, out of 26 matches, there must have been at least 1 decent game there to draw a crowd. NRL doesn’t even play on Saturday afternoons – most their games are completed at night with 2 on Friday night, a couple on Saturday night and then Sunday is NRL day. Are you saying all this local sport is played solely on Sundays?
The silly point you’re trying to make about Melbourne juniors – I don’t get it – so, you’re saying that because Sydney has perhaps more diverse codes that there’s MORE kids involved? Are you suggesting that overall more Sydney kids partake in weekend sport than in Melbourne?
You also forgot to mention netball for Melbourne.
Private schools play everything – try driving down Bulleen Rd on a Sat morning and see all the kids heading into Marcellin, Trinity etc playing fields for footy, soccer, rugby etc
Don’t imagine that Melbourne doesn’t have large soccer participation at junior level either
Melbourne kids have to balance sport with study too!!!
I was lucky for many years North Melb had the Friday evening slot – I could go and watch and then play on the Saturday and pretend to study on the Sunday…….
…..certainly though – you’re comment about ‘away supporters’ seems solid (only from limited observation on my behalf) – -
…..and, for us in Melb, a venue like Telstra Dome actually scares away cash paying customers – because, it’s not quick or easy to access for the big games and GA seats are all on level 3. The MCG is still to a degree a ‘friend’ to GA supporters – but, with MCC, AFL and competing club members – there’s actually not that much left to GA. The old Waverley was the beacon for cash entry on the day. TD has served probably to reduce attendance – especially over the period of the AFL having a toe to toe with the MCC and putting on games at inappropriate venues. I can understand therefore, away fans NOT attending certain games……..but, that doesn’t make a whole lot of sense with the Olympic Stadium – surely there’s sufficient scope to rock up on the day and get a seat – and it’s long and narrow, there should be sufficient side of ground seats – fair enough for the GF you might be up in the rafters – but, gee, they should at least have a 25K avg attendance there – - surely?!?!?
Look – you’re grasping a bit. Except – that, I do accept that the Olympic Stadium is a bit of a white elephant – I’ve suspected that for some time and suggested that at times – you’ve effectively outlined several reasons why it is (a WE). So – the ‘build it and they will come’ theory is limited by certain common sense factors that seemed NOT to have been factored in – i.e. access, location, design……….
…….is it too late to get the money back??
Joe O'Sullivan said | April 2nd 2008 @ 10:32am | Report comment
Michael C
The above article provides an interesting insight into the hopes & dreams of Colin Carter. It is also illustrative of where I believe our respective assessments diverge.
I do not doubt the facts as you have earlier presented them i.e. youth pathways & number of teams in various countries. Where I think we will have to agree to disagree is on the CONCULSION of fact.
From his words – I reckon we could have another South Australia or Western Australia in South Africa in 20 years time & I don’t find it at all improbable that we could have a team based in South Africa in my lifetime – Carter ( who is certainly no dummy ) perceives some probability in AFL groundwork ultimately leading to significant developments. You may to a greater or lessor degree share this view. I however in all honesty can see no probability of the eventual occurance of these developments. You & Carter may end up being correct & I wrong, but to date no-one has has convinced me of such.
I make these comments not to be provocative or infuriate but merely to crystalise where I think we disagree.
It is perfectly reasonable for the AFL to seek to grow its game internationally. The issue will be cost. As Carter more than most will know – you can do anything you want if you’re prepared to pay for it. And finance will be the conundrum AFL administrators must confront.
Michael C said | April 2nd 2008 @ 11:04am | Report comment
Joe -
largely agreed – I’ve never contemplated an off-shore AFL team – whether NZ, SthAf or PNG. And certainly for reasons that included cost factor, travel times, international travel and customs etc and that I don’t see why a National Comp need really have international teams in it – - – however, the game development argument is obvious for NRL and NZ and the capacity to have close (neighbour) international rivalry. Without the ARL and the Auckland Warriors – it’s doubtful just what presence RL might really have out of NZ. I’m no great fan of the Singapore Slingers in the baskbetball – just too far. In the HAL – it’s hard enough for Perth and Phoenix to be competitive when the other 6 teams all ‘effectively’ share a time zone 2-3 hours distinct in each direction to Perth and Phoenix. (I’m effectively negating the 30 mins factor with SA, or 60 min factors around DLS etc). Especially when in some cases arriving at the capital city on an International flight is only the first part of the journey.
However – the cost factor – re Sth Africa – on the ground is the major reason for such a location. And, no doubt NRL and AFL in PNG recognise cost benefit on the ground too.
I really don’t know what will happen – it needs people willing to push it and a game that can ‘afford’ it. If the TV rights reduce in real terms then the squeeze might come on – and such projects may be deemed unsustainable. It probably needs everything to go (mostly) right.
You never know.
For me -
what seems realistically possible are the following:
a fair dinkum WOMENS world cup of footy. Well, PNG, US, Australia and maybe a 4th. Okay, 4 teams a World Cup does not make – but, a fair dinkum international tournament involving Australia!!!!
and the evolution of greater international level junior footy – - especially as presently the Sth Africa component is strategically important given that the Irish are no longer keen to play junior ‘hybrid’ games for fear of showcasing their best talent to AFL scouts. The AFL NEEDS international competition to get the AIS funding etc. So – Sth Africa from that perspective has a cost benefit equation that presently is a positive net result to the AFL – - and, if that means that something does get firmly established in Sth Africa as a result – - that may be a great bonus.
At any rate – it’s still interesting to follow from a distance….
….however, with this International Cup this year, my VAFA club is likely to be one of a number of VAFA clubs ‘hosting’ an IC team (just for a training session/minor function) – - and I’m hoping that we can use that to establish a ‘relationship’ internationally. Whether just an ‘understanding’ or potential for player exchange/scholarship style arrangements – at any rate – with a bit of luck we will move from observing from a distance to being involved directly. I’ll let you know how we go.
btw – there’s half a chance the Catalan squad (mostly from around Valls) might make it out – as well as the Spanish team (mainly the Madrid Bulls) – - these guys are great, they’re very few ex-pats – mostly kicked off by locals who saw the game on tele – and, they’re quarter time huddles are something to be seen/heard……….it’s the funniest aspect of the whole IC – seeing what looks half normal for Aust Footy types – but, hearing something totally foreign. Who knows, maybe in 40 years – it won’t seem so foreign.
Redb said | April 2nd 2008 @ 11:38am | Report comment
Redb,
i think a South African team in 20 years is a bit far fetched or at least it seems improbable until more development occurs. However, player recruitment is a different story, there could be well quite a few South African players running around in the AFL in 20 years if all goes to plan
Redb
Michael C said | April 2nd 2008 @ 11:43am | Report comment
Redb -
exactly right – no real reason why not.
The x-factor is that the ovals DO exist and the access is assured and the cricket partnership in place – there is the primary infrastructure requirement already in place. That reduces the impediments by about 75% up front.
If within 5 years some players started coming through the system – - the current $400K question is just what momentum MIGHT be gathered. And how far might it go.
And the thing we AFL folk have absolutely NO idea about whatsoever – is, at what point does it become self sustaining. We just don’t know.
Joe O'Sullivan said | April 2nd 2008 @ 12:36pm | Report comment
Michael C – Redb
Readily accept the possibility of Sth Africans playing in AFL & this might lead to bigger things – but it will still come down to money. Don’t sell yoursef short on womens world cup. For me the relevant issue is not the number of teams but that the best Aust team will play the best foreign national team.
On a completely different topic but something I wanted to ask – whatever happened to Waverly park? Wasn’t that the scene of the first day/night odi cricket match? I can vividly recall the tv shot of a full moon. Stunning.
Millster said | April 2nd 2008 @ 12:36pm | Report comment
Hehe – for the first time in ages I can agree with a point that you 2 blokes have made. Africans in the AFL makes a huge amount of sense to me, just as much as Islanders in the Rugby codes. And I don’t think there would be a stronger promoter of the game over there than that. Imagine a kid from Soweto ‘made good’ playing a key position role for St Kilda – the whole neighbourhood would keep up with it.
I even know this from my own favoured sport – until Kewell and Dukes went there a decade back, how many Aussies even knew of the existence of Leeds United? (Certainly not a ‘top 4) Whereas even now, when the club is in total shits-ville and both Aussies are long-gone I still see more Leeds shirts on people than those of a whole lot of other better clubs.
Anyway my point is not about football, its about the fact that Aussie Rules might get this same effect with judicious recruitment of talent in developing overseas markets. Thinking timezones and also the right build of people… why not eastern Russia? ) Completely left-field I know… but I’m actually not pulling your legs and have been to Vladivostok for work a few times myself. Some of the locals are damn tall and strong.
Michael C said | April 2nd 2008 @ 12:49pm | Report comment
Millster -
I respect your input – and, certainly – why not? It’s a big world out there.
Sometimes in Aust we can be too carried away by ‘national’. The obvious thing in the US for example is the concept of ‘national’ is very high level and from sport to sport can be more east than west or north than south – for obvious climatic factors (more so at the ‘grass roots levels’ too – as, a top level venue with a roof can be put almost anywhere).
So – the AFL – need only develop ‘pockets’, just as RL has. And when you get enough ’strong’ pockets and a few emerging pockets – then, you have a world game – of a kind.
Joe -
Waverley – originally was to be about 150K capacity = but the rail or tram likn straight up Wellington Road never eventuated.
at any rate – it was fully owned by the VFL. The ground suffered for being in a rain belt. And being a built homogenous and deemed devoid of atmosphere – largely because the playing area was so vast and the crowd felt a fair way away. A failry big camber to – -but, also, the lack of the finished top deck that would have enclosed the ground. It was built into a mound so to speak such that from outside you walked into the top section of the lower deck.
The land became worth too much – the AFL sold it to fund their input into Telstra Dome. Now, the oval remains, as does the main stand (and the cool mural). It’s the Hawthorn training base – and they’ve got some good stuff out there.
Around the ground are being built fairly closely clustered homes and town houses. A whole new suburb effectively.
Alas – it had provided nice access for Gippslanders who didn’t have to come all the way into town – now, the MCG and TD are just a few miles apart.
Cricket wise – only the World Series stuff out there and some of the first drop in pitches – the odd concert – I think U2 might’ve done a gig out there. Certainly a big crowd was hard to get out of the car park.
Redb said | April 2nd 2008 @ 1:01pm | Report comment
Joe,
Waverley Park – god awful place – it wasn’t called ‘Artic Park’ for nothing. As MC said hard to get to you via public transport, very much eastern side of Melbourne, making it hard for north and west folk. It is not unlike ANZ stadium in Sydney in terms of position, although ANZ has a train station and is more comfortable for spectators.
Central stadiums well serviced from multiple directions via train/tram/bus work best.
Redb
Redb said | April 2nd 2008 @ 1:05pm | Report comment
Millster,
Eastern Russia – who knows. A good starting point for AFL international expanson is any country that plays cricket, ready made oval for AFL.
Redb
Millster said | April 2nd 2008 @ 1:08pm | Report comment
MC – back at you – also agree with your comeback about ‘national’. There are many ways to skin the globalisation cat, and having “truly” national or “truly” international competitions are only one simplistic way of doing so. Thats where I think some of the debate on this site is a bit dumb. It is so focused on only one vision of code success. It happens to be the strong point of my favoured code but that doesn’t have to be the destiny for all sports.
Take the NBA for example at its height in the 1990s. One nation’s comp. But kids the world over were wearing Lakers or Bulls tops by the tens of millions. Michael Jordan was every bit the cultural phenomenon that David Beckham is now (and others – Johnston, Abdul-Jabar, Malone, Barkley, Rodman – were household names). Every basketball player the world over wanted to play there. And the international players in the NBA teams got SERIOUS star exposure (news etc) back in their home countries. Without a World Cup, and without any other country playing the game at anywhere close that level, they sure got one hell of a ‘pocket’.
Maybe going too far, but I’d also try on an argument that the ‘lesser’ basketball leagues (including Australia’s NBL) were ‘carried’ in the public mind and in many aspects of the sport by the NBAs position on its home turf.
Another angle on what a comp with the particular strengths and positioning of the AFL might aim to achieve, and without risking or bastardising its roots…
Joe O'Sullivan said | April 2nd 2008 @ 1:09pm | Report comment
Michael C – Redb
Thanks for the info.
Michael C said | April 2nd 2008 @ 1:23pm | Report comment
cheers Joe – much happier with theRoar as a bit of an info sharing discussion portal!
Millster –
yep – agreed – the question then is – for an AFL type game – could it ever be the curious world ‘flavour of the month’? Who knows. I’m still wondering if cricket can crack America via either the US billionaire in the Windies, developments in FLorida and combined with the 20/20 and Indian millions (Bollywood billions)……..yeah……perhaps Billions is what it takes……in which case my answer would be ‘NO’.
I reckon the thing for the NBA was that basketball had been building a proflie via the olympics Russia vs USA – but, also, a few more players from a few more countries were popping up in the NBA especially as the Iron Curtain was coming down. Suddenly – greater international interest – - however – - it aslo became a tool for the first round of global sports endorsements – in effect completely irrespective of the local sporting culture – i.e. almost everyone had air-jordans – - but, an awful lot never saw a basketball court……they’d just become a fashion item.
Go figure!!!!!
Anyway – the final comment of yours is one that I think my North Melbourne have come to realise – either people will respect and love you as North Melbourne Kangaroos est 1869……or…….it’s not worth prostituting yourself to try to make them.
‘bit windy out today.
Millster said | April 2nd 2008 @ 1:24pm | Report comment
Redb – you’ve missed my point. In my view strategy for AFL is not so much to start small comps there, but to find the right generic skills/genetics/aptitude and bring a critical mass to play here. If tha’t done well then the rest will follow in those ‘pockets’ (as MC calls them) due to the aspirations and curiosity that are stirred. Oval shape/infrastructure/etc only matters WAY down the track.
Redb said | April 2nd 2008 @ 1:43pm | Report comment
MC,
Windy – i think I just saw the Manly ferry!
Redb
Spiro Zavos said | April 2nd 2008 @ 3:45pm | Report comment
If the AFL try to start up an operation in South Africa it will be a salutary experience for their officials. They will find the same hostility to their code that the Melbourne establishment, the general population and media dish out to the other winter codes that are not AFL. There will be no free kicks given to the foreign football code, as rugby league has found to its cost when it has tentatively tried to put down roots in South Africa.
The game the blacks are passionate about is football. They fill Ellis Park on Sundays when the local Super 14 side, the Bulls often struggle to get decent crowds to their games, and this on a ground that has been a sacred site of South African rugby.
There is a half-hearted effort to get more blacks to play rugby. But it is doubtful that they’d be interested in large numbers in Australian Rules.
The problem with this notion of exporting a code to a country that has no history of the code is that the merits of the code as a game compared with the entrenched code or codes are irrelevant. It is immaterial that Australian Rules is a ‘better’ (whether it is or not is a matter for debate) than rugby union or football.
It is extremely hard to get people out of the habit of supporting a code they’ve grown up with. Also the media and the establishment, the media particularly, have a vested interest in keeping the outsiders from establishing themselves.
Would Eddie McGuire, say, be jumping for joy if football or rugby league or rugby union supplanted Australian Rules as the main game in Melbourne? Hardly. For McGuire read all the power-brokers in big cities around the world who have a vested interest in maintaining the priority of their sport in their home town.
I would have thought that converting the Irish to Australian Rules would be a smart first step to internationalising the game. The Irish play a game rather like Australian Rules. They have the grounds. And a rivalry like that of Australia-NZ at rugby union would be quickly developed, I would think. The ersatz football the two countries do play doesn’t seem to resonate with people.
Spiro Zavos said | April 2nd 2008 @ 3:46pm | Report comment
The local Super 14 side playing (badly) out of Ellis Park is the Lions. Sorry about that.
Michael C said | April 2nd 2008 @ 3:59pm | Report comment
Spiro -
actually – the Irish Gaelic grounds are rectangle things. NOt much good. And, the GAA have fought against the British codes to sustain the cultural ‘relic’ or ‘icon’ that is the Gaelic games, including football and hurling.
That would be a bad move. So long as the GAA remain amateur – the AFL provide the nicest means for the kids to seek a professional career and play an allied game and very likely return one day to finish off their career at their old GAA county club rather than perhaps returning as a FIFA registered soccer star to further convert the ‘locals’ to those evil British games.
Sth Africa –
It’s only a pocket – Nth West province. A largely ignored region. It’s an interesting exercise, it’s already achieved partnerships and sponsorship with local cricket and govt and is going okay. There’s in large part – no stepping on others toes where the AFL has thus far focussed. Thus far, therefore, they aren’t really in competition with anybody. However, that may all change.
Until Colin Carters mention – and as he stressed – it’s not official strategy in any way – but, it’s only via Colin Carter now that I’ve heard any mention of a notion of an off-shore AFL team. I could envisage perhaps – all going well – in a few years time that at Under 18 national championships that we might see something like:
Div 1
Vic Country, Vic Metro, WA, SA & QLD
Div 2
NT, NSW/ACT, Tas, PNG, SthAf (and or NZ)
(for similar reasons to why Zimbabwe can be competitive – in the past – in U19 cricket world cup – but, drop away at senior level).
btw -
update on John James from PNG,
“John James made his senior debut for the Zillmere Eagles in the AFL Queensland last weekend, after recently completing a great tournament in the AFL Queensland U18 State Championships. Not only did his team have a win, but he kicked 2 goals and was named in the best players. Not bad for a 17 year old from Papua New Guinea.”
Millster said | April 2nd 2008 @ 4:18pm | Report comment
I have actually thought for the weeks that these various threads have raged that it would make a very interesting and unpredictable change in the landscape were AFL to change its rules such that the game was played on a rectangular field.
While it would change the tactics and strategies used, there is no FUNDAMENTAL reason that AFL rules would not work with straight boundaries…
Michael C said | April 2nd 2008 @ 5:02pm | Report comment
The main conceptual thing related to the ground shape is that the greater width midfield allows greater space coming out of defence to ‘open’ up the game through the midfield (or to get trapped out wide).
The flip side being the seeming congesting of the forward line as the boundary tapers back in.
Square pockets would mean a greater chance to be having ’shots’ from effectively completely blind/impossible angles – such that a greater level of backwards and ‘centering’ kicks would be required rather than the angle shots that via the boundary taper generally give some chance of threading the goals. (perhaps more banana/checkside kicks would be used)
A lot would depend upon which way the dimensions go – i.e. rectangle venues that are 120 metres wide and 160 metres long – or, 80 metres wide and 160 metres long.
In essence – the main dilemma with most rectangle venues is the lack of length.
And the ANZ stadium I guess is an example where the marked out boundary is almost a rounded corner rectangle – Subiaco to a lesser degree – being long and narrow.
There is no standard width or ‘depth of the pockets’ – -
What it’d probably do is make the job of forwards easier – with more ’space’ to work in (should we keep the wider width dimension option) – with more space to work in it’d be harder to flood and defend – especially a game with no off-side. The flip side being that attacking teams could more easily bury themselves in a ‘corner’ as distinct to ‘around a pocket’.
—- so, rules wise – it’d work – - – regarding the ‘game as we know it’ – it would change a few of the dynamics without a doubt.
The alternative being the narrower field – that’d just congest things too much – and playing on soccer pitches would just be a farce for an 18 a side game with a sherrin. Be a bit like those ODIs in Jo’burg at the Wanderers, not being able to defend 430!!!
Towser said | April 2nd 2008 @ 5:10pm | Report comment
Spiro
Interesting your paragraph about exporting , entrenched codes and the habit of supporting something you’ve grown up with because its more or less what I said in the piece about sports and value for money. Theres a whole lifetime of emotional attachment involved.
As an example in Sheffield, Rugby League has tried for years to estabilish a club in there. Unlike the at times ridiculous code friction you can get here, I dont remember striking this until i migrated ,even though Rugby League territory was within spitting distance of Sheffield. So there was no great animosity involved or resistance to Rugby League in Sheffield,( The Sheffield Eagles even won the Super League I believe one year) its just that Football is so entrenched the public didn’t care . LIke trying to drill through a brick wall with a toothbrush.
I believe that the club has now folded.
This emotional attachment to football will increase tenfold amongst the black population as the 2010 World Cup approaches in South Africa.
Michael C said | April 2nd 2008 @ 5:33pm | Report comment
Towser -
probably a bit like the Storm in Melbourne – -
however, the soccer in Australia argument is much around the new generation being ‘used to it’, growing up with it always being there.
At what point does entrenchment or a degree of occur – - even the Swannies in Sydney.
At any rate – the 2010 WC is a major EVENT. It will happen and then move on. The question is how much sticks to become firmly entrenched not just over the immediately leadup and the honeymoon period thereafter – - y’know – - a little bit like how the Olympics were great, the stadium was great – but, now it’s 80% empty 95% of the time for the NRL.
Redb said | April 2nd 2008 @ 7:14pm | Report comment
The AFL has deliberately targetted an area in South Africa where no entrenched code exists, poor areas with no organised junior sporting structures. It is most definitely a long term recruitment exercise, I can’t ever see a team from Sth Africa. Ireland through gaelic football is a growing recruiting zone for the AFL, much to local Irish angst. These are players that require much less work to get them to AFL standard.
My belief is that the AFL will remain the premier competition with purely Australian teams (no NZ, Sth Africa, PG). Other countries may eventually serve as recruiting opportunities in time. But like the EPL is the premier soccer comp in the world (italians will disagree) it attracts the best players to its existing English teams, I think this is the path of the AFL on a much smaller scale.
An AFL world Cup with Australia competing is so far off its not conceivable at the moment. An Australian v Ireland Country of Origin – a possiblity if trends continue. Meanwhile the International Cup fills a quirky void that should be encouraged, its a big world, not everyone will end up in the other codes.
I agree it is very difficult to remove lifelong attachments to a football code. You can take second interest but the first love, remains the first love. Perfect example the recent Friday night in Brisbane where the NRL and AFL had a fixture clash, in crowds and on TV the NRL won easily. That’s not to say there aren’t delusioned supporters whose team may have been extiguished by merger, relocation or bankruptcy. Or simply they choose a new code becuase the incumbent code didn’t work for them.
Redb
Crosscoder said | April 3rd 2008 @ 6:34pm | Report comment
Spiro.
Interesting observation on Sth Africa regarding rugby league trying to get a foothold.I would point out the Super league war which happened at the time of introduction of the code to SA in 1995,allied to the situation in 2001 due to changing SARL boards and infighting ,the number of rugby league clubs fell from 24 to 4.
Let me give you an update for the last 2 seasons the SARL competition has grown to 20 clubs,and 4 provinces ,There has been interest expressed from other provinces.ATM there is no rl played in Western and Eastern cape.The game is now being introduced into high schools,and consequently they were unable to play Welsh junior teams who wished to tour as the game was only starting in these SA schools .
It was also pointed out by the VP of the SARL Nico Pretorious the code ran into difficulties after the 2000 RLWC,they relied on many guys straight from union.That is not the case now ,no player can play for the Rhinos if they haven’t played provincial rugby league first.The provincial games and finals -the semis began on the ist week of February.
Whilst I agree that it is like trying to extract a bone from a ravenous dog,to get a committed fan(where the incumbent code is so strong) to change codes,there are still plenty of youngsters and young men who either want the challenge of a new code,or in fact are more suited physically to a new code.It is happening for rugby league in Sth Africa ,Wales and the Pacific Islands and let us not forget France where the code was on its deathbed.The latter already has a pro team in the ESL and Toulouse is applying for a 2009 licence together with the Celtic Crusaders(Wales the heart and soul of rugby union).Wales had a previous unsuccessful attempt at rugby league,however the game is well entrenched and growing in the schools ,and there is an 8 team conference to which they can graduate.
Every major code naturally wants to retain dominance in their domain,however in this technological age where sport is just the flick of a switch away, more people are exposed to a new sport,and more people as a consequence are prepared to consider alternatives.It may or may not eat away a slice of a code’s dominance,however any code worth its salt has to accept life’s realities.Showing hostility towards an intruder may help in the short term, but as Sth Africa and France have shown they keep getting up off the canvas.
Stoffy said | April 3rd 2008 @ 6:57pm | Report comment
If it does happen it’s a mistake. Support will be terrible for the teams, i mean who would leave their favorite club for a new one. The teams will be weaker than the others, poorer and less popular, its got everything against it.
Crosscoder said | April 4th 2008 @ 12:52pm | Report comment
Towser.
As a matter of fact the Sheffield Eagles are playing in the Rugby league Northern rail Cup this season ,coached by Mark Aston the coach of the 2007 side.Any rumour to their demise is unfounded,though they are not playing in the SL.You are correct when you say football is so entrenched in England,it hasn’t stopped rugby league spreading across London and the south with amateur clubs and tremendous growth in schools competitions in London.
Look at baseball in Japan,only really came into existence in that country due to the post war American occupation.It is a matter of establishing,through persistence and pain a niche in the sportingmarket.
Michael C said | April 4th 2008 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
The thing that get’s me with respect to RL and RU – it’s not so blatantly obvious the distinction from one to another – and such, in certain regions the development of one as distinct to the other – seems as though it can’t but be aimed in the main at the same ‘demographic’. That is, people who don’t want to play soccer and are looking for something else – in which case, if they are NOT attracted to A rugby code – then, I doubt they’ll be attracted to the other. For that reason, I’d have to think that the 2 codes can’t help but be nibbling at each other whether deliberate or not.
I’m very curious therefore to track the ‘evolution’ of Aust Footy relative – as, it is certainly a mid point between the soccer and rugby codes in terms of body mass index at very least. On that ‘technical’ point – it might be suggested that ‘nature’ which abhores a vacuum does demand an offering of soccer, Aust footy or equivalent, and Rugby(U,L,Grid Iron).
That latter category might get a bit crowded in some places.
How many places to RU and RL directly overlap and really, really NOT appear to be one at the expense of the other? [not just at a national level - but, more city by city - does RU and RL in France for example have different 'power base' pockets? (enclaves)]
Crosscoder said | April 4th 2008 @ 1:53pm | Report comment
MichaelC
There is a little inconsequential bit of nibbling from either rugby code in some countries.However when you get over 25,000 kids male and female playing in the largest rugby league comp in the world (via England,Scotland and Wales),they are hardly coming from a rugby union background.Many in the London schoolboys teams,are new to the game and any form of rugby.
The fact there is as has been pointed out, animosity by some rugby unions to rugby league,it is left to rugby league enthusiasts and development people to access other non rugby union people and children new to the game.If you think rugby league is nibbling away at rugby union in France,you would be wrong.
In NZ for example All Black players such as Jonah Lomu,John Kirwan,Tana Umaga,Jerry Collins and many others came from a junior rugby league background,shows it goes the other way.
I remember the former PM of Fiji Rabuka state when rugby league was introduced to that country,not that long ago,that rugby league for him was better suited to Fijians due to the openess and running in the game with ball in hand and the physicality.
Both codes are growing strongly internationally,so any nibbling either way is having minimal effect.
Using your theory,rugby league is nibbling away at AFL in Sth Australia ,due to the dramatic increae in public schools playing the game.
That schoolboys in the under 20 Storm squad (6 -8 locals) came from a rugby league background in Victoria via the Academy .One player migrated from the UK to Vic with his family to start a new business,was a UK junior rugby league player,and was on the point going to NSW to further his career.The Toyota cup under 20 comp,game him the opportunity.
In most places where both rugby codes are played,there is little in development that at the expense of the other.They are independent sports,and cannabalising the other ,is pointless,fruitless.
You seem to be pushing a point of view that rugby league is reliant on growing intnlly by poaching rugby union players.Sorry that is not the case.
Michael C said | April 4th 2008 @ 2:10pm | Report comment
actually I wasn’t pushing any point this time – I was purely asking a question!!!
More curious about – even 25K kids for example in the UK – that’s a nice number – but – it’s entirely possible that they are completely from non-traditional Union regions (and the flipside of being from traditional league regions or just a ‘neutral’ RU/RL region).
The main ponderance is the overlay of the 2 codes – would it be such that it many of the ’stronghold’ countries that they do not in fact overlap, such that effectively they don’t all that often exist as ‘competing’ sports in specific markets?
Compared I guess to how they DO go vs each other if competing toe to toe. [The Australian example shows Union financially and player development wise is lagging].
Just wondering, in a country such as France for example – would Union and League be effectively operating in disparate cities and regions – and if so, would that perhaps limit the capacity to expand into a region already ‘colonised’ by the other?
Mainly because – they are such similar sports. Rugby insiders can push the ‘independant’ line – which is fine – but, to outsiders (i.e. if promoting into a ‘virgin’ market) they still (I would assume) look and smell just like Rugby – depending how much you like your scrums.
You comparison to SA is only a ‘major problem’ should they be seen as a direct alternative for the majority of kids and I guess some soccer folk feel that AFL has more to fear from soccer (first cap off the BMI rank removed from soccer) than does Rugby which needs players about 20-30 Kg heavier than same height soccer counterparts.
[this theory means AFL both is positioned to gain and lose both ways more readily than the other codes]
Joe FC said | April 4th 2008 @ 6:04pm | Report comment
Crosscoder
Baseball in Japan started towards the end of the 19th century & its popularity rapidly spread. It was already a mainstream sport in Japan before the 2nd world war. Babe Ruth & Lou Gerhig were part of American teams that toured Japan in the 30s playing before packed stadiums.
Crosscoder said | April 5th 2008 @ 9:15am | Report comment
MichaelC
The actual number for the Carnegie Champion schools competition is 26,095 student participants.I erred on the conservative side.
In 2002/3 there were 5,168 playing from year 7 to 11 all of them boys.Last season that increased to the number I mentioned with 235 girls teams now involved.
The 202/3 figures showed no teams from Scotland,Wales,London and the Midlands,now there were 53 Scottish sides,71 Welsh sides,155 teams from London and 27 from the Midlands,in addition to the traditional heartlands of the north.
London is a hotbed of soccer,Scotland is strong in soccer(non trad union area),however rugby league is making inroads in the Glasgow area for starters,Wales is ru and soccer.In effect it has shown,whatever area the code has tried development(traditional union/soccer),it has achieved certainly in the case of schools, dramatic success.
In the case of France there is not much love lost ( anyone knowing the history of union trying to kill off league by lobbying Vichy officials)the strength of both codes from my recollection is in the South.Co operation with development work is virtually zilch.They compete for students,for many years union poached senior league players ,despite union supposedly being amateur.Once rugby league had a pro team in the ESL Les Catalans,the player drain trickled.Now a second rl team Toulouse(which has a union team) is applying to the ESL for 2009.It certainly hasn’t limited rugby league’s plans to expand in other non union areas,eg the Catalan area of Spain,where the local university played a game .Rugby union’s strong presence has not prevented a resurgance of rugby league in France.
They(union and league) are competing in a specific market,as they are in Wales,NZ,Pacific Islands.
In Lebanon rugby league was in a completely foreign territory(virgin market),they now have a 5 team comp,with home grown,players,officals and sponsorship.Did you know for example rugby league was played during the middle of last century in Yugoslavia,then died.It is now going ahead in leaps and bound in Serbia,with local clubs,universities and schoolkids involved.
Look I agree it is much easier to sell a product if there is a product that has a slight resemblance.It is a bit like the Coca cola v Pepsi theory if you will.That still has not precluded rl from growing elsewhere.I mentioned there is a country being tested in the next few monthsy,should it be successful will be a huge boon to rl,from the point of view of the athletes and the location.
I don’t believe Sth Africa is the problem that is made out,sure the SARU are hellishly protective about their code.However there are what? 30 plus million people who are not rugby union tragics ,like soccer ,and I guess many of the coloured consider rugby union in that country,as having the past apartheid stigma attachment(rightly or wrongl).
Prior to the super league was ,North Sydney made a trip over there,as a development exercise and the point was made by some locals that rugby league is a new “untainted” sport.If you know anything about rugby league size is important,but not as important as it is in union(scrummaging).There are many tall not heavy players in the NRL Inglis,Slater, slight players Hodgson,Kearney,small players Orford,Pearce,Kimmorley,Bowen,Ty Williams.Indigenous players in the NRL are buillt for speed ,agility and endurance and strength.I am sure that is in abundance in the black townships in Sth Africa.
The famous rugby league coach Jack Gibson once stated on a vist to Melbourne,during a State of origin match”We (AFL and rugby league) are competing for the same athletes,ones that are over 6″ and can run 100metres in 10seconds”.
Crosscoder said | April 5th 2008 @ 9:17am | Report comment
MichaelC
Correction that should read 6′ not 6″.
Crosscoder said | April 5th 2008 @ 9:23am | Report comment
Joe FC
If that is the case in Japan re baseball I stand corrected.My understanding was the game took off after occupation and became as big as it is today.My long standing and not isolated BTW view is incorrect .
treizistes said | April 5th 2008 @ 1:38pm | Report comment
Very well said crosscoder.
MC, in France you have small villages that RL rules, then there are bigger cities were it is the same, pop over 100k and Union will rule the next town or city, another 100k and it will be League, it’s like this all over the South of France.
Soccer is big in the biggest cities like Toulouse, Paris, Bordeaux, Lyon, Marseilles and probably Montpelier, then closer towards Spain you have the big Catalan clubs where Les Catalans, UTC and a few other RL teams play, also have a Big Union club there in Perpignan called USAP.
But most the small towns and cities around the south are split between RL and RU, towns like Carpentras, Pia, Villeneuve, Villefranche, Carcassonne , Limoux , Lézignan, St Martin, St Gaudens and a heap of others are all RL strongholds.
In between those towns and cities there are RU strongholds.
Both codes of Rugby are small fry in Paris, they both have teams and union would be bigger by a fair way, but is is insignificant compared to Soccer.
Michael C said | April 7th 2008 @ 6:24pm | Report comment
Hmm, a report today that RL in PNG wants a team in the NRL by 2014.
I’ve been thinking the AFL MUST have a stand alone PNG team in the Aust National Championships by then (certainly at junior level).
One wonders whether either NRL and or AFL have seriously considered a stand alone PNG side at senior level. It would be a major shift for AFL, but, NRL already carries one ‘international’ National team.
Joe O'Sullivan said | April 7th 2008 @ 6:48pm | Report comment
Michael C
Interesting report. I remember reading/hearing some years ago of an academic urging the Aust govt to fund a PNG NRL team as part of our aid package to PNG. May yet come to pass.
P.S. Sorry Nth didn’t win for you.
Petalac said | April 7th 2008 @ 9:08pm | Report comment
I might sound insane, but what about our neighbours Asia, why South Arica?,Look at the NBA there are some big boys playing there from all over Asia.If we could find a few Chinese Korean or wherever AFL players, it could take off like it has with the Soccer in Europe, and the Basketball with millions of dollars in sponsorship.
And the bonus of less travel time, could make it very financial. With Asian countries becoming more westernised, lets get in there early ,who cares if it takes 20 years, it will be worth it for the games future.
Petalac said | April 7th 2008 @ 9:20pm | Report comment
2008 Australian Football International Cup – official entries:
Majority of games ,to be played in country Victoria.
New Zealand
Papua New Guinea
United States
Ireland
Samoa
Britain
Canada
South Africa
Japan
Denmark
Sweden (debut)
Finland (debut)
China (debut)
Israel/Palestine (debut)
Joe O'Sullivan said | April 7th 2008 @ 10:05pm | Report comment
Petalac
Is any of this competition to be shown on TV? My interest has been sparked espically by the Israel/Palestine team. Is there a story about them? Will they play under a national flag?
Petalac said | April 7th 2008 @ 11:14pm | Report comment
The third Australian Football International Cup will be staged in Warrnambool and Melbourne in August and September 2008.
For the Melbourne matches the Royal Park North precinct is the venue, situated in Park Street, Parkville.
Not sure on Telly coverage, stay tuned i will find out.
Israel/Palestine team is a combined Peace team made up of 30 players from Bethlehem,Jericho and the West Bank.
AFL Talent Manager Kevin Sheehan stopped by Israel on his way home from Dubai recently and conducted a three-day clinic for them.
Joe O'Sullivan said | April 7th 2008 @ 11:49pm | Report comment
Petalac
thanks for the info.
Michael C said | April 8th 2008 @ 7:21am | Report comment
It’s under the ‘banner’ of the Peres Peace Team – - which follows on from a soccer team put together in the same manner.
And you hear stories of the fellow playing who has lost X members of his family – and, his philosophical outlook being that the only alternative is to ‘hate’ – and, so, projects like this seek to ‘connect’ the people outside of the politics.
TV coverage. I have not heard anything to indicate such. There’s been none previously.
However, there’ll probably be more internet content including video out of this tournament.
Best place to follow preparations is usually via Worldfootynews.com (although, this time around, the AFL has actually been keeping their website updated on the topic!!!!, which is encouraging for followers of the ‘international’ aspect of the game.
(as per the title of this thread – the best standard on display will probably be around ‘D’ grade VAFA (whether that’s D1 or D4 – I don’t know, but, I play D4, and we can produce pretty good footy, if lacking for fitness at times). This is where the chance for VAFA clubs to ‘host’ an IC team is pretty cool. Who knows, maybe within 10 years the ‘leaders’ in the international context will have left us in their dust – - – )
Joe O'Sullivan said | April 8th 2008 @ 9:30am | Report comment
Michael C
Appreciate the details. Anything that provides an alternative to hate is worth supporting. Could be something for ABC’s Australian Story.
Michael C said | April 8th 2008 @ 10:29am | Report comment
Joe O’Sullivan -
certainly- the international cup in it’s absolute ‘amateur’ status and being such a minority sport on a world stage – with about 1000 participants coming to Melbourne – - the whole tournament should be begging for some form of doco.
I was at the VAFA season launch last night. Kevin Sheedy proposed the toast and spoke for a bit, and later David Parkin spoke at length.
Sheedy was very enthused about the upcoming IC – having just last week been to Sth Africa and last year to the US and Canada – and was really stressing that these folk coming out ‘LOVE’ the game just as much as we do. Personally, I can’t wait – it’s very cool to be able to play ‘host’ – especially when it’s ‘hosting’ one’s own ‘event’ (rather than a bought ‘global’ franchise event).
Sheedy stressed that while he’s never played as an amatuer (i.e. in the VAFA) – he and the entire Aust team that play the Irish have not been paid – and, so, at the time, those games are unpaid professionals vs amateurs. (a fact a lot of people lose sight of). It was interesting recently one of the Irish Gaelic converts commented that the training/discipline etc wasn’t that much different – just that, you weren’t working during the day as well. The reality about professional vs amateur is you still CAN only train so much without causing over use injuries. I still suspect the main reason for ‘full time’ pro footballers is to allow the coaching staff to work near regular hours and get home in the evenings to their families.
Petalac -
also, worldfootynews.com has reported in recent times that the following are still hopeful of coming out:
Tonga, Nauru, Spain, Catalonia and France.
Mostly would have to be highly doubtful.
I’d still love to see the AFL just bankroll the airfares – because, if they can’t be seen to be willing to cover it then it’s a bit rich to even seek any form of major sponsorship to go part way to covering it. In the 150th celebration year – this event should be able to feature as many teams as possible – do that, and Germany would probably be out too.
Michael C said | April 8th 2008 @ 10:36am | Report comment
btw – the Welsh Australian Rules Football League is having a crack going ’solo’ this year – with no English teams.
They’ve got the :
Cardiff Double Blues
Gwent Tigers
South Cardiff Panthers
Swansea Magpies
Good luck to them.
Sean said | April 21st 2008 @ 3:45pm | Report comment
For all you skeptics of the potential for International Aussie Rules, check this great compilation from YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNTlG-72S60
The interesting part about this video is that the highlights clips are from a handful of actual games featuring teams from countries like the USA, Ireland, Nauru, Great Britain, Japan and Papua New Guinea. Sure, it is amateur, but nevertheless, the standard just gets better and better every tournament. No chipping backwards, no flooding, no diving or soft free kicks for the soccer moms – just hard contested football – the way it was and the way it should be. Some of the juniors who have taken up our game are only now getting their chances to pull on the colours of their national flags. As an amateur footballer myself, it is refreshing to see some great representative footy return to this overcorporatised world of AFL football. People may say I am deluded, but the slow but steady growth of awareness of our national game is reality and as Australians we should all be proud. Afterall, look how far it has come in just a couple of decades. I actually remember the days when rugby union was still amateur. Gaelic football is still amateur and it enjoys record popularity. For some, the NCAA is every bit as good as NFL. You only have to look what the AFL has done with State of origin (ie the “Allies”/”Dream Team” farce) and new rules to see how tainted the vision is of the corporate suits of our game’s governing body. Ask yourself – are they doing it for the fans or for the almighty dollar ?
So Enjoy !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNTlG-72S60
Carl Unger said | April 28th 2008 @ 11:33am | Report comment
Ok, let’s take a step back. AFL is not more popular than NRL worldwide. That’s laughable.
You have to quote registered players to make it a proper argument which is meaningless anyway since the AFL goes on these recruitment drives and gets people to register despite they don’t know jack squat about the game and have got to join it because of their school etc.
AFL in PNG is waaaaay behind the NRL. way behind. TV ratings, Attendance figures and culture put AFL way behind. Registered players agains means squat.
At least Rugby League will have a World Cup which will be more credible than AFL’s, heck we’ve had one for over half a century.
AFL is more popular in Australia than Rugby League, be happy and satisfied with that.
Though, NRL isn’t as far behind as people think half of Australia’s population is in NSW and QLD, you can’t just go by state numbers.
Michael C said | April 28th 2008 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
Carl Unger -
NO ONE HAS SAID that AFL is more popular than NRL world wide.
However – - what do you mean? NRL attendance figures??? In PNG.
Are you talking Australian Football vs the international game of RUgby League?
Or, are you talking AFL vs NRL.
We know that on registered players and attendance and club members IN AUSTRALIA that AFL is streets ahead of the NRL.
SO, I’m assuming you’re speaking ‘code’ level and not competition level – -although, you appear confused.
Yes, in PNG – the AFL is behind RL. However, Aust Footy has long had a solid presence there, and was at times perhaps the major football code, certainly in certain regions. RL had a major jump forward in the 80s especially. Is it so absolutely entrenched? I don’t know.
Has Mal Michael and his profile assisted Aust Footy? Certainly it has.
What might happen if a John James (as is highly possible) gets drafted to the AFL? Who knows.
That’s the curious thing. ANd, perhaps part of the reason for PNG RL to call for a team in the NRL!!! (they know they need to do something like that to ‘ward’ off the threat of soccer and footy!!) [that'll get a response - - okay, I'm speculating, but, it possibly, actually, probably, plays a part in the reasoning for such a proposition]
——
btw – main thing is that AFL has a far, far greater presence in QLD especially, and NSW than does NRL in Vic, SA, WA and Tas. So, the 50% of Australia that is AFL – - is more firmly AFL than is the 50% that is supposedly NRL.
And that’s been illustrated via enough Sweeney reports and ABS stats reports etc. NSW and QLD are more fragmented – NRL, ARU, soccer, footy etc – - the AFL states traditionally and still, are more ‘unidimensional’ with respect to the major footy code. Fact.
Carl Unger said | April 28th 2008 @ 1:28pm | Report comment
Wow, quick reply you must watch this thread like a hawk.
I’m not going to play down AFL’s long history in PNG, though I thought Rugby League was introduced during WWII. My target of attack was someone who mentioned that Aussie rules is on par with League. When I was talking about ratings I meant generally NRL vs. AFL. I agree that AFL is making progression but you mentioned the NRL side which I believe if it were to happen then AFL will be blocked from progression there heavily, it would set them back alot. You might be right, part of the reason might be to finally shut out AFL but I think a team there has been a long time coming.
I don’t disagree that AFL has a greater presence in QLD/NSW than NRL has in VIC but there are some things to be said for that. You might point out to crowd figures of the Swans and the Lions. The reality is and I think that most people will agree with me that AFL is a better game to see live at the ground and NRL is better to watch on TV, more league fans prefer to watch the game on TV therefore accounting for attendance. As touched on before more people in Victoria tuned in to watch the NRL Grand Final than New South Welshmen tuned in to watch the AFL grand final which should mean something, I’m not going to overplay that just saying that it means something. Melbournites have a culture of becoming members of their footy team and showing up at football games moreso than Sydneysiders. Also I think if the Melbourne Storm decided to make Telstra Dome their home ground they could fetch 20,000 a match, it seems everytime they go there they get a much larger crowd. There’s more I could add but I’m just saying that NRL isn’t so far behind as we think and that quoting crowd figures and membership isn’t the be all and end all.
Michael C said | April 28th 2008 @ 1:59pm | Report comment
CArl -
hawk – - nah!, I was eating my lunch – so a response could come whilst the ink was wet (so to speak).
Reality is the AFLQ is super important presently – and the draft results in recent years illustrate that. Aust Footy has always had a presence in NSW and QLD, with some nice ‘hot spots’. Obviously in NSW, the Wagga, Riverina and border regions and out to Broken Hill are the obvious ones. And in QLD, the Gold Coast and Cairns have been important ‘outposts’.
AFLQ is playing a major role in providing a ‘pathway’ for PNG kids. The main thing from my point of view – being that I find soccer on tele the MOST boring – - is that if kids in PNG can suitably access AFL or NRL via decent talent pathways – fine. The AFL have for too long been an Australian closed shop – and even those, such as Ron Barassi who pioneered the ‘Irish experminet’ had more knockers than supporters. It’s just kind of exciting now, that, there is suddenly an opening of some doors – and nothing, nothing at all about world domination -
- however, if there are people anywhere in the world able to fall in love with the game – then, they need to be recognised.
The TV vs Attendance is a tricky one. It relates in part as well to the ‘exclusivity’ of matches into cities (mainly relates to the AFL and Fox trying to get a better deal to crack their ’sluggish’ markets in Perth, Adelaide and effectively anthing compared to Sydney), the timing and fixturing element, (i.e. the NRL fluid fixture that caters so much for TV, including 2 Friday night matches plus a MOnday night match), how much games a ‘live against the gate’ or not, – - – like a lot of things, some people seek to draw absolute conclusions from single views of one dimensional data sets. The main thing that goes the AFL way is on club membership as a sign of people willing to ‘take ownership’ of their club – and to part with cash – - however, I think the folk at Fox might need to heed that many of us prioritise our club membership ABOVE fox subscriptions.
Paul said | April 30th 2008 @ 8:57pm | Report comment
International arguments aside, AFL will be the victor in Australia in the future. NRL is falling further behind as is the Super 14. As far as soccer is concerned, I seem to remember that another round ball game “threatened” Aussie Rules in the 80s and 90s on the backs of superstars like Michael Jordan. 80 000 fans packed the Telstra Stadium to watch David Beckham play, which is really a similar phenomenon to the earlier basketball craze. Melburnians will watch any sport going, so apart from Melbourne Victory’s crowds, the A-League crowds are actually worse than NRL. Let time give the answers, but I predict that the soccer craze will not last, especially if the Socceroos do not qualify for the world cup.
Carl Unger said | May 3rd 2008 @ 8:11pm | Report comment
Hey Michael,
Sorry if I’m being stupid here but regarding TV ratings, I’m not 100% sure what you’re trying to say especially with club memberships. Also confused why AFL can’t crack their own market in Perth and Adelaide which are AFL cities.
On Fox I thought it was head to head all across Australia, NRL vs. AFL with RL dominating the ratings.
AFL gets the better crowds reinforcing my conclusion of AFL being a better game to watch live at the stadium and league a better match to watch on tv and Sydney not having much of a culture of showing up to live games contributing to the NRL’s much smaller crowd numbers to the AFL.
Joe O'Sullivan said | May 4th 2008 @ 12:03am | Report comment
Paul
I’m intrigued by two of your statements – “AFL will be the victor in Australia in the future” & “but I predict that the soccer craze will not last”. Can you please clarify. As to the former AFL is already the most popular football code in the country. As to the latter are you implying something about the A-League?
Paul said | May 4th 2008 @ 1:26am | Report comment
A lot of people are making noise that soccer will be the number one code in the future in Australia. People like to point to a handful of matches with crowds above 50 000. I am simply pointing out, that this seems to be similar to the earlier basketball craze when people predicted that Aussie Rules would be eroded by basketball.
When I say that AFL will be the victor in the future, I am referring to the conquest of the greater Australian market, of which many areas are still not saturated by AFL. Yes AFL is the most popular code in the country, just not in all parts of the country yet.
I am personally on a quest against soccer because I see it as a dull and boring sport. I have written some essays on my blog about this, particularly the slow death of ice hockey in Russia, which I am an eyewitness to. I think that Aussie Rules does have the goods to defeat soccer in the football wars on Australian turf at least. Even though AFL may have a big lead, there is no reason to be complacent.
Carl Unger said | May 4th 2008 @ 8:01am | Report comment
I also don’t know how you can say that NRL is falling behind..
NRL is still expanding, there is a great possibility of a Perth team in the NRL by 2011, a PNG team in 2014 and also possiblities of a Sunshine Coast, West Brisbane, Central Coast or Wellington team in the near future and crowd numbers are slowly heading north.
Dave said | May 4th 2008 @ 9:10am | Report comment
Paul
You are entitled to your opinion but l thought there may need to be balnce given to what you say about Soccer (world football) being dull and boring;
If that was the case why is it the most popular sport in the world (last FIFA count as reported by the individual football asscoiations around the world) is 265 million players (Paul that doesn’t include specators!!) see link; http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/bigcount/index.html
World football has the highest TV ratings (WC, Euro, Champs League etc) of any sports
How are we doing so far for the most boring sport. Seems to be a lot of people who, according to you, chose to be bored!!
Just remind us of the impact around the world not just in one part of one small (population wise) country of AFL? What are the world wide TV audiences of AFL and participanr numbers??
EPL is probably the most popular football league on the planet
Man Utd the biggest football team of any code (including NFL) on the planet
World Cup is arguably the biggest and most exciting competition in the world (what does AFL have again)
World Football in Australia is on the rise and that is probably why you are feeling so nervous and defensive.
Big difference to Basketball from the early 1990s is that football here has a massive base of participants (around 500,000 more than AFL in NSW and Queensland).
World Footballs rise is not due to any one individual (ie Mike Jordan had big role in Basketballs surge upwards)
Football previously had a divided (largely by ehtnic) community which is starting to become unified.
Football has always been popular in Oz at the grassroots level and from that large base the apex of the pyramid is being fitted. Players now have a pathway to the elite in Oz whereas previously they had to go overseas.
You have your opinion and l have mine. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. However l think l know which of the 2 sports has the most people enjoy it around the world, and year by year more of those will be in Australia. Better get used to it
Joe O'Sullivan said | May 4th 2008 @ 10:27am | Report comment
Paul
thanks for the feedback. I think you & I will have to agree to disagree. Did anyone seriously suggest that AFL would be eroded by basketball? Will AFL become the dominant football code in NSW & Qld? An interesting question. It may happen but you haven’t yet convinced me. You are free to pursue a personal quest against soccer if you wish but I suspect that you’re wasting your time. I believe support for that code in Aust is only going in one direction – up. Will it ever be a bigger spectator/viewer sport in Aust than AFL? Not in our lifetime & maybe not ever. But I could be wrong there too.
Michael C said | May 4th 2008 @ 12:55pm | Report comment
Carl -
no – not ‘head to head’ across Australia.
Fox & FTA have different offerings of AFL around the country – so – you don’t always get a single game being national – - where the NRL games – will be – that means that you’re not always comparing apples with apples.
Overall ratings too – - Friday night is highly regarded as the prime time TV night – - and the NRL have 2 games offered up there – the AFL only 1. It might be that the AFL needs to look at that. The Monday night slot is now effectively a pure TV slot and is a market monopoly slot. Smart move from that perspective by the NRL – - traditionally, the AFL has been more guided by match attendance – - I think they’re gradually coming around to what they MIGHT need to do in future to ensure a value incentive.
Adelaide and Perth – - the issue there is for Foxtel. They have their lowest market penetration there. Re. footy as a part of the available package – - the push by Foxtel is to get better access to the Eagles, Dockers, Crows and Power games live into the ‘home’ markets. It’s go nothing to do with the ‘AFL’ having not ‘cracked’ it’s own markets. It’s got to do with the value proposition for people to decide that their needs aren’t suitably covered with 4 FTA (previously 5) games – compared to subscribing to pay TV.
Now – ratings nationwide. If Sydney – the biggest population base – has the greatest Pay TV ‘penetration’ – by quite some way – - then – it’s pretty obvious that the following should apply:
A. NRL ratings will ‘appear’ higher (whether true or not if all things were equal – that’s another question – obviously, foxtel figures that NRL is of limited ‘market value’ in the AFL states)
B. the scope for further growth in the more mature market place (i.e. NSW) is far less than in the less mature market place – - again, the focus on Foxtel to expand their take up rate outside of NSW and QLD.
Keep mindful – for a good while, FoxFooty was a great product – - but, required an extra premium on top of the regular subscription – Fox actually made the mistake of pricing itself out when they hadn’t (at that time) negotiated access to the ‘better’ games (into the particular markets).
That’s all.
Michael C said | May 4th 2008 @ 1:05pm | Report comment
re basketball -
the big thing as Dave points out – is the existing ‘base’ that Soccer has in this country. Basketball grew rapidly – - but, thus far, has struggled to gain exclusivity over the player base. And, so, many players are lost to other sports.
That’s the thing around soccer – - how well can it retain exclusivity? Probably in certain demographics more so than others?
And – victor or not – - from the AFL perspective -
A. we don’t (thus far) get shown up for falling ‘local’ standards by international ‘bench marks’ (other than in a fluid sense the hybrid highly gaelic skewed international rules games).
B. AFL can rather easily convert kids from especially a soccer/basketball background. (rugby converts can find it harder because of elements of their game – - my father in-law always speaks of ‘only the man with the ball can hurt you’ – - where as in AFL – the loose man via the overlap will hurt you – - it actually becomes a ‘trained instinct’ that has to be unlearned – - and is a bit different to soccer and basketball and footy).
Paul said | May 4th 2008 @ 1:12pm | Report comment
The things I resent are this:
1) That FIFA thinks it has the exclusive right to use the name Football, and that other codes are not Football. In fact Rugby is older than Association Football. Rugby codified their rules in 1845, Association in 1863. (True, the Rugby Union formed in 1871 and then made “Laws”, but they did have codified rules for 26 years before this.) “Melbourne Rules Football” (the predecessor of Victorian Rules which became Australasian Rules which became Australian Rules) was codified in 1859 also ahead of Association Football. There are 7 codes of Football in the world today, each has the right to the name, especially in the local area when their game is more dominant than soccer, i.e Australia and North America. In fact the etymology of the word “football” actually refers to games which are played on foot as opposed to on horse back.
2) I also resent the fact that FIFA will make up lies such as “the Chinese invented soccer football.” The Chinese did have a game called Cuju, but many cultures in history have had many ball games. The modern game of soccer is clearly from Public Schools in England, just as Rugby is. FIFA’s lie serves them two purposes a) To gain bigger access to the Chinese market b) To convince the world that Association Football is the oldest and purest form of the game. This is a blatant rewrite of history.
If you research the history of football codes you will discover the simple reason why Soccer expanded more successfully than Rugby. In the early years the expansion of Rugby was actually faster. But Soccer went professional in 1885 and established a professional league in 1888. This gave them a huge advantage against Rugby. Rugby remained a snobbish sport for amateurs only until the split in northern England in 1895. By this stage Soccer had already gained a large advantage, and the Rugby League of northern England did not have the same cultural influence as London did anyway.
Australian football was hiding down in some colonies at the other end of the world, which in those days was like another planet in the solar system. Australia did not have the cultural influence that the British Empire had, so the successful code in the late 1800s and early 1900s was always going to be something from England, not Australia. Soccer defeated Rugby in world wide expansion. Australian Football was never even in the race.
So the reason why Soccer is the biggest game on the planet today has more to do with history than anything else, and far less to do with which is actually the most exciting code of football.
Soccer has such momentum internationally that people are now jumping on the bandwagon as part of a social phenomena. Human behaviour is predictable. When enough people are into something there is a common belief that it must be the best thing going, and so people simply follow. Soccer is most popular in Europe and South America and in a handful of countries in Africa and Asia. I currently live in Russia and I have seen how people would choose to play soccer in the middle of winter instead of ice hockey these days. They want to be like Europe. not like America. Previously Russians wanted to defeat America at ice hockey, now they just want to be like Europeans. I find it sad that the sport of ice hockey is dying in Russia, simply because of human behaviour that gets caught up in a dominant social phenomena.
Yes we are all entitled to our own opinions, but please go and read some more history and you will learnt the reasons why soccer is as popular as it is.
Let the wars begin.
Dave said | May 4th 2008 @ 2:10pm | Report comment
Paul
History can explain the spread but not necessarily the take up. The British also exported other codes around the world such as Cricket and the Rugbys but no where near the take up from the local populations as football. Does that tell you something? As said you may see football as boring but that is because you have no emotional attachment or interest. You resent its success and popularity around the world and that your codes will never achieve the same..
FIFA telling lies?? Shock horror a major international sporting organisation not telling the full truth or bending facts to suit themselves?? Gee where have l seen that before… IOC, ICC do we need to go on. You must hate the Olympics, Cricket etc
There are so many variations of the histories of the codes that guess what…l dont care anymore who invented what. Accept the sports for what they are now. The history can be manipulated like any other facts…
Football is getting bigger and there will be some bandwagon jumpers just as there are with other sports that go through popular periods of growth. Living in Russia you should be supporting Zenit St Petersburg in the UEFA cup final in 2 weeks…me l’m going for Glasgow Rangers.
BTW there will always be great diversity of sport around the world and football will always be behind indigenous codes such as AFL in Melbourne and NFL in the states. It will be dominant however in Europe, Sth America, Asia, Africa, Middle East and Central America. Enjoy
Spiro Zavos said | May 4th 2008 @ 4:14pm | Report comment
It wasn’t the football authorities who decided that China ‘invented’ football, it was Chinese chauvinists. They are the same Chinese chauviinsts who reckoned that China invented golf.
Spiro Zavos said | May 4th 2008 @ 4:19pm | Report comment
Michael C, It’s pretty obvious why basketball has difficulty becoming a truly mainstream sport in Australia. There are physical imperatives about the game that restrict the number of star players in a population the size of Australia. The football codes are all pretty democratic as far as shapes and sizes go, so players who are too small for basketball, say, make the grade in them. This allows the codes to appeal to a wider range of the population.
Paul said | May 4th 2008 @ 7:22pm | Report comment
Dave,
I tried to stick as closely to the facts as possible. You don’t to seem to care about facts if you don’t care about history. I have researched the history extensively. I have little respect for people who think history is important. The present does not exist with out the past. Soccer is only what it is, because of the past. The take up of soccer was because of professionalism. Rugby Union was not a professional sport until 1995. Yes, Rugby League was in 1895, but that was in the lower socio-economic ares on northern England.
Rugby was actually more successful in spreading in Europe in the early years than Soccer was. The change in take up came because soccer went professional and rugby did not. So if you think soccer is popular because it is better, you are wrong. It is popular because it has been professional longer than any other code of football.
In fact Australian Rules only went professional in 1911, and it is one of the big reasons it lost out to Rugby League in NSW and QLD. I assert that professionalism is the biggest reason for the spread of a sport.
As far as the ICC and IOC are concerned, you are right, I have little respect for them. I have little respect for their choice of some Olympic cities, where human life is given little respect. As far the ICC is concerned, i can’t wait until it is disbanded or seriously reformed. The ICC are complicit with Mugabe’s corruption and horror in Zimbabwe. I love cricket though and I can see a revolution in the making in world cricket.
So, that should mean if I have little respect for FIFA that I should still appreciate soccer. In fact I did appreciate soccer until a couple years ago. I was there at qualifying matches against Uruguay and cheering with everyone else. Two big things have changed my mind though, Italy cheated to win the world cup, by knocking Australia out through cheating. I witnessed countless players through out the world cup, whinging and writhing in pain when ever they fell over and then being dragged off on stretchers. It made me realise how wimpy a sport soccer is. Secondly, since living in Russia, I have seen how the drudgery of the global soccer juggernaut is killing Russian culture. That has been the biggest thing to change my mind. I am not interested in a global sports landscape where everyone only plays one sport. In some parts of the world, there is only the choice of playing soccer, and believe me that can be very boring. For the first time since living in Russia for two years now, I had the chance to play a Russian game called Lapta the other day. I thoroughly enjoyed it, not least because it offered some variety from the globally dominant culture crushing game.
So the reason I hate soccer, is because they do have plans to dominate the world and effectively wipe ALL other sports out. It would be the same as if we all spoke one language in the world, all listened to the same style of music and all ate the same food. How boring a world would that be? I don’t want AFL to dominate the world, but I want there to be cultural variety in the world.
If you take the time to read history properly the story is actually quite clear. The fact that you think there are lots of different stories just highlights your ignorance. Now, how can I have a good debate with some one who is ignorant. Do some home work and then we’ll have a better debate!
Paul said | May 4th 2008 @ 7:24pm | Report comment
Oops, I meant to say that I have little respect for people who think history is NOT important.
Michael C said | May 4th 2008 @ 8:06pm | Report comment
Spiro -
and that physical requirement is made all the more obvious when watching the ‘top’ level of the sport – and seeing physical ‘freaks’ – - –
I know of many AFL players who love basketball – and played it on the side, especially in their teenage years or post playing – - it’s an excellent game for quick hands, hand eye co-ordination and descision making – -
my main gripe – - following on from Paul – -
is that I have encountered way too many soccer fundamentalists – who, won’t even look at another sport – - let alone just code of football. Via the ‘world’ extent – there seems to always be a game on somewhere. And, when you here a Craig Foster demanding 3 night a week 11 month a year dedication …… the soccer zealots threaten to create a mono-culture.
And – That, my friends – WOULD be boring.
Midfielder said | May 4th 2008 @ 8:18pm | Report comment
Paul Dave Spiro
One this is an AFL tab, started by someone attacking the AFL, I guess as a come back by an attack by best clubman on league.
However why anyone would not wish the AFL every success with expanding there game overseas is beyond me. I wish them the best of luck ………… how / were / why they will do it is not my concern. I don’t hate the AFL or people associated with it and my guess is most Australians don’t either so go for it boys
AFL bloggers just a wee bit of advise as I mentioned earlier …………. just don’t use the word “international” as then any comments make, lose all cred as in Football, Union and to a lesser extent league, there are at times, real contests called internationals. Also don’t over hype it as all you actually do is highlight that football and union do have meaningful international matches and you don’t …………. find different words to send the same message, if for no other reason than the northern states.
Paul …………. mate ………….. please grow up ………….. Ok you hate football (for you soccer) ………… lots of people do. Just say you prefer union simple as …………… nothing you say has not been heard a 1, 000 times before ………… nor will I offer any football FIFA counter ………… as they have been heard 1, 000 times before as well.
Dave said | May 4th 2008 @ 8:30pm | Report comment
Paul
You need to read what l said…at no stage did l say history wasn’t important!! I did say l don’t care about who started what and when. It seems to have been debated endlessly. Who invented what rules and when or who was first to play this game doesn’t concern me. Historical ‘facts’can be manipulated to suit, we all know that. You said the following;
“The take up of soccer was because of professionalism. Rugby Union was not a professional sport until 1995. Yes, Rugby League was in 1895, but that was in the lower socio-economic ares on northern England.
Rugby was actually more successful in spreading in Europe in the early years than Soccer was. The change in take up came because soccer went professional and rugby did not. ”
Why do you think football went professional? Because many people were interested in it, people who were prepared to pay money to watch it, pay players, form teams and clubs. It went professional because of its popularity. If it wasn’t so popular it would have died and if it wasn’t a good game to play and watch nobody would have bothered with it!! What Rugby did or didn’t do, likewise AFL was the choice made then. If RL was so popular why didn’t it become the football of today…because not enough people were interested.
As per your other points give me a break. There is cheating in Football! Really? Heard of the AFL team Carlton cheating at the supposed salary cap to win a premiership or two? What you mean is there is cheating for other sports that doesn’t count but cheating in football on the pitch to win a free kick or penalty is much worse because it is the ‘global juggernaut’ as you call it. Get real, in this day of professional sports unfortunately cheating is rife, in all sports and codes. You just like to select football out as the only code that has cheating? There may be more egamples in football but do you know why? Because it is the most popular sport and reflects all the cultures it is played in, both there good and bad aspects. Difficult to make sure the 265 million footballers around the world behave. Maybe a bit easier for the 600 or so pro AFL players in the world.
So Ice Hockey is not as popular as it used to be. Guess what in Melbourne we are building a rectangular stadium that costs $260 million for Melbourne Victory and the Rugby teams. Things change, it is the world we live in. Get used to it.
Not sure why l am responding to this doozy but hey what the heck…”Secondly, since living in Russia, I have seen how the drudgery of the global soccer juggernaut is killing Russian culture.”
OK so football is killing the Russian culture?? Want to provide some evidence there? Perhaps football caused Global Warming, the depletion of the ozone layer etc!! Tell the Zenit St Petersberg fans who were jumping for joy as their team demolished Bayern Munich the other night that football was destroying their culture!! You are living in Russia so lets here how football is destroying Russian culture. If you had said Roman Abromovich has the potential to destroy Chelsea (if he walks away) then l would believe that!
Finally. As l said earlier you don’t need to worry about the world succumbing to one sport. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN!!! As with every professional sport FIFA is looking after the games future like it or not, just as AFL is expanding into NSW and Queensland. Why? Next TV rights…ask RL diehards about how they feel concerning the AFL push to take over Western Sydney! However if it makes you feel better go on hating football, calling it boring etc etc. You will have many friends (Michael C take a bow:) ) who think the same. Unfortunately for you there are many more people who love the game and cannot wait until the next match eg ManU vs Chelsea in MOSCOW!! Do yourself a favour and watch United destroy Russian owned Chelsea oops then ManU will have destroyed Ru…better not go there. BTW Bet you didn’t think it was so boring when Aloisi’s penalty hit the back of the net in November 2005?
Joe O'Sullivan said | May 4th 2008 @ 10:25pm | Report comment
Midfielder
you are free to draw inferences from my original post but please do not presume to know my mind.
Paul said | May 5th 2008 @ 12:31am | Report comment
Hi Dave,
Thanks for telling me all the great moments that I enjoyed in soccer… wait on, nope, didn’t see any of them.
You said:
“Who invented what rules and when or who was first to play this game doesn’t concern me. Historical ‘facts’can be manipulated to suit, we all know that.”
My point is that this is important, and I am not talking about manipulating these facts, I am talking about researching them for yourself , so that you will know the truth. If you knew some history you would understand that professionalism came into sport because working class people could not afford the time away from their jobs when they played, and especially when they were injured. Match fees were small in the early days, to cover time lost at work. It was because of upper class elitism that Rugby did not go professional. There was a high ideal of amateurism in sport, that was also a big part of the Olympic movement.
So, I contend again that your blanket claims that soccer was more popular because it was better is unfounded.
You said:
“Why do you think football went professional? Because many people were interested in it, people who were prepared to pay money to watch it, pay players, form teams and clubs. It went professional because of its popularity. If it wasn’t so popular it would have died and if it wasn’t a good game to play and watch nobody would have bothered with it!!”
Well I answered the first part of your unfounded argument above. You said that soccer went professional because of popularity. To follow that logic, Rugby Union was not popular enough to go professional. To follow your logic further, then Rugby Union should have died out. But you are wrong, Rugby Union did not die out, but instead went professional a further 100 years later than Rugby Union.
One last thing Dave, who is Aloisi? Who are Zenit? Never heard of them. And I think I am more qualified to comment in Russian culture than you are.
Enjoy your Fussball.
Dave said | May 5th 2008 @ 8:46am | Report comment
Paul
You said “In fact I did appreciate soccer until a couple years ago. I was there at qualifying matches against Uruguay and cheering with everyone else. ”
Then said; “Thanks for telling me all the great moments that I enjoyed in soccer… wait on, nope, didn’t see any of them.”
Err problem with remembering your own history a year or two ago so dont know if you should comment on history from over 100 years ago!
I am well aware of football going professional in the 1880s although there was semi professionalism with illegal payments etc before that. Doesn’t change anything that l’ve already said. Football was already very popular. The FA Cup (heard of that?) had been operating since 1872 with good crowds attending. Football also took the chance to go professional because so many players were already being paid “íllegally”. Football was already well established and thriving. You are trying to speculate what may or may not have happened if football didn’t go professional. You don’t know! It went pro because it had to. Rugby chose not to. Anything further as to what may or may not have happened if Rugby went professional at that time is unfounded speculation (guesswork).
Now back to the real world and time. St Petersburg is a city in Russia. Whilst living in Russia take the opportunity to visit it . Very historically significant city. Zenit is their successful football team. (their coach was to take over the Socceroos but did the dirty and took some more oil money to stay on and leave the Aussies in the lurch – hence my support for Rangers in the final) You should read the sports papers occassionally
Still waiting on detail of footballs destruction of Russian culture (not Ice Hockey). Now if you’d said Vodka (alcoholism), Russian Mafia, Stalin, Communism etc had contributed to Russia’s decline then ok.
As said previously beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You once enjoyed football (according to your earlier post) but became disenfranchised because of cheating, FIFA, the Chinese, diving, FIFA, destruction of Russian culture, FIFA, Ice Hockey declining etc. Fine that is your choice, no problems. However because of your new found dislike doesn’t mean that football is now a less of a game than 2 years ago. Football is here to stay and is thriving around the world. We will survive the occassional person jumping off the bandwagon. BTW try to get to Moscow for the Champions League final if you can get tickets (apparently very popular event) it will be a beauty. Would love to be there to cheer on the Reds
Michael C said | May 5th 2008 @ 9:34am | Report comment
There was a time and a place – - for each locality – - where, suddenly, the ‘working class’ gained access to sufficient free time to be able to ‘play’ regular sports.
Working class – though – being economically challenged as they (we) are – whilst preferring to play the more enjoyable code to play – (not necessarily a function of crowd enjoyment) – alas – money talks –
but – where there was no choice of code – again, money talks -
There’s very, very few instances of being able to draw a qualitative ‘proof’ on the basis of what code went professional where.
For instance – from what I’ve read – and it’s even been presented by Sean Fagan – that there were many who preferred to watch and play the ‘Australian/Victorian’ style of football (apparently even Dally Messenger to a degree) – - however, the lure of moneys via tours to the old dart results in a more ‘business’ oriented decision – - rather than just sports.
For anyone today to lament the money and business side of sport – - that’s just short sightedness – it’s been going on since the Gladiators (original……really original, (not the Gladiators circa 1995 with Vulcan!!!, and Commando, and was it Fury or Flame????)
At any rate – - the lemmings often follow the lure of dollars.
So – in answer to was basketball ever a real challenge – - – well, anything that offers potential ‘huge’ dollars in greenbacks or pound sterling – - sure, it’s a threat.
btw – - back to the thread proper
“As my father used to tell me – you can’t have your cake & eat it.”
I had cake on the weekend, and…….got to eat it too…..it had fresh cream in the middle.
Carl Unger -
the NRL is floating ‘ideas’ at the moment. That may not be enough. It may be. However – the concensus seems to be that now is the time to act – - well, certainly the NRL has acted via the Titans.
But – they’re doing a lot now to consolidate revenue streams that are core to the AFL (i.e. club memberships, gate receipts etc). NRL needs to do this, because, they don’t have the financial base from which to launch the next phase of expansion – - to where ever. Now – whether a team in PNG would offer sufficient ‘return on investment’ relative to PNG tv rights?? I’m not so sure about that.
NRL though, IMO they seem to have fallen behind in Perth by a huge degree – the Force seems to have claimed the slot there – - however, the failing Glory franchise might give the NRL a sniff to slip into the ‘3rd’ position????
NRL also seems to be working a bit harder on establishing ‘local’ RL in other states – something that they didn’t have in Victoria and the Storm has therefore been unable to cash in it’s chips – - no takers.
Question to you Carl – -if the NRL WERE to be deemed to be ‘falling behind’ – - – is that really ever going to be vs the AFL, or FFA or – - does it only really matter how the NRL sits relative to the ARU???
Paul said | May 5th 2008 @ 11:58am | Report comment
Dave,
I guess on the question of professionalism, it would require more research to “prove” that it has a big influence on the development and spread of a sport. Why don’t we wait a few years and see what happens as a result of the Indian Premier League. I bet we see players from Ireland, Kenya and Canada getting picked up, who would not be able to make a living in their home countries. If Irish players get paid enough in the IPL it will enable them to quit their jobs in Ireland, and then play first class cricket for the country for the rest of the year, which will only help the game of cricket to develop and grow in Ireland. That’s my hypothesis about the current situation in world cricket and it is also my hypothesis to why soccer spread. But hey, I can do some more research, but it will have to wait until I can go to libraries in Australia, because the internet is certainly still inferior to printed matter for depth of information.
I guess we have been getting a bit tongue in cheek with each other. Perhaps we should agree not to if we want to have genuine debate. I have never really followed soccer. Like many Aussies I would follow the Socceroos and nothing else. So I do not know anything outside of the Socceroos as far as the ins and outs of daily professional players and plays etc. I actually have other things and work to do in life than to commit my life to following a myriad of soccer leagues.
I actually do not have an interest in the Russian league. I did go to a second division game between Novosibirsk and Krasnoyarsk in Novosibirsk. It was rather amusing for me to see people get quite upset with me, when I decided to barrack for Krasnoyarsk.
I don’t appreciate your strong sarcasm Dave. I know this country and culture very well. I dare say better than you, just because I know little about the Russian Premier League, does not mean I know little about many aspects of culture in this country. Of course I have been to St Petersburg and Moscow. Have you? Have you been to Siberia?
In nearly every neighbourhood in Russian cities there are outdoor Hockey rinks. Nearly all of them are disused now. Some have even been co-opted by soccer players in the depths of Winter. I have seen people running around outdoors playing soccer at -20 degrees. Ice Hockey has been a big part of Russian culture. True it was not invented by the Russians. But due to Russia’s climate it was a good fit, and they were always among the world’s best at the game. Now they have stopped playing it at a grass roots level and this has been replaced by soccer. Mind you, they have very few full sized fields or goals, so they will never really hone their skills at a grass roots level. I don’t see how they will ever become a force in soccer in the world. They have given up ice hockey, something they were champions at, to try their hand at soccer, something they will never win. It’s all a little sad really.
Dave, I was never on the soccer band wagon. I’m just an Aussie who loves nearly all sports, except soccer.
Dave said | May 5th 2008 @ 12:27pm | Report comment
Paul
We’ll agree to disagree. Apologies for the sarcasm however some of your statements were a little confusing although not the one where you state a campaign against football.
As stated l would love to go to Moscow and not just for the Champions League final.
I’m a little confused about the Ice Hockey situation and the apparent move of juniors to football. Why have they stopped playing at grassroots? The Russians have always been pretty good at football without being world beaters. Under the old USSR banner they won Euro 1960 and have been runners up 3 times lastly in 1988. This year they defeated England to get to Euro 2008 so have decent players. The Russian league plays over summer months so why would it effect the Ice Hockey? The Scandanavians are good at Ice Hockey. Are they similarily effected? Would be interested to hear why?
Still Paul l think it is a bit rich to blame football for these issues.
BTW Siberia seems a little cold for my liking and as you say not much in the way of football there.
Michael C said | May 5th 2008 @ 12:31pm | Report comment
Paul -
agreed re the professionalism aspect.
The reality of the ‘world game’ is that there’s only so many actual leagues that are worth a grain of salt (so to speak) – - and it’s the fact that the volume of money at the top end is such that players can be drawn in from around the world.
The IPL is the first ‘club’ competition to provide that possibility for cricket – - and, is the great chance for the 1 or 2 good players from developing nations to have a ‘pathway’ straight to the ‘top’.
It is this ‘model’ that allows a ‘world cup’ to function – such that, as in the example of Australia – that the ‘domestic’ soccer squad would struggle where as the team made from travelling ‘professionals’ collected from the various and disparate leagues across the world – is a far better line up. i.e. in essence – a bunch of ex-pats.
What can footy learn from this?
The Irish example already illustrates this in action. Alas, with only a single ‘elite’ level ‘national’ football league, there’s only one ‘batch’ of (Australian) Irish recruits.
The question we AFL fans are curious about is -
we’ve never had a guy play AFL who has learnt the game (up to the age of 16) entirely outside of Australia. Presently – there’s a real chance of this happening.
If and when it happens – - suddenly, an element of the ‘global sports model’ is in place – that is – a proven and apparent career path.
Then – and only then – is the AFL suddenly a (very, very, very, very) small player on the ‘global’ stage – - for now, for better or worse, the AFL is a bit like a poacher regarding the Irish kids – although, we’d still like to think that the AFL provides a much needer professional career path (that is NOT taken on lightly by kids thinking about it) that otherwise WOULD NOT exist in Gaelic and which might hasten the demise of Gaelic at the expense of the long despised ‘English’ games that the GAA has effectively protected against.
Crosscoder said | May 5th 2008 @ 1:33pm | Report comment
MichaelC
A lot of assumptions re NRL and expansion.The Titans came into being purely because of the huge amount of groundwork done by rl people on the Gold Coast,such as Searle ,Broughton et al,and the growth in the population on the strip.The NRL when it came time to look at possibly expanding the game,faced an impossible to ignore GC application.More so with the new stadium thrown in.The Central Coast is there for a relocated side.The NRL was not asking officially for expressions of interest for expansion,the GC case was too compelling to refuse.
Expansion can in fact come from a cashed up franchise,with good support despite the head body(NRL) not having ATT the funds available.An expanded competition in larger markets,means more sponsorship and generally a better TV contract.More so for Pay TV, which is sweating on content,and the NRL is one of that medium’s biggest subscription drivers.
Do not ignore the influence of part / private ownership.
Don’t believe for a moment that Perth is not in the sights of the NRL for expansion.Why? The WARL has experienced a massive increase in junior numbers(33%) in 2008.there were in fact 14 extra teams involved,including 4 teams in the newly formed under 20 colts competition.The clincher : The number of junior players competing in the WARL competition has now surpassed the mark set in the mid 90s when the Reds were in the competition.The Pilbara region will stage their first regular junior comp in history(Sth Hedland,Wickham and Karratha).In schools in 2008 the Primary School ARLD cup for Leaguetag will involve over 2,000 students from around 190 teams and 80 schools.WA is more accommodating to codes other than AFL,compared to fortress Vic.that is why they currently have a Reds team in the JB CUp.Quite a few East Coasters have moved to the golden west(resources boom),add a few Kiwis,Pacific islanders,English migrants,and you have a reasonable support base,in addition to a few converts(which does happen LOL).
The local MBong news a few days ago made mention of the local rl team the Altona Roosters being inundated with youngsters wanting to play in the junior comp,a by product of the Storm’s success(despite playing in an antiquated stadium). They now have a path to the NRL via the under 20 Toyota Cup.New clubs have been formed in the Goulburn Murray area. Tends to make your “no takers” comment re the Storm a bit shakey.Getting l Vic govt approval to have RL, offically recognised as a high school sport in 2005/6,is another plus.
BTW its the ARL via their development officers that is doing the development in the other states.The NRL does not employ DOs.
They are working a bit harder to develop the game,than it”seems”.
Redb said | May 5th 2008 @ 1:55pm | Report comment
Crosscoder,
points taken re RL in WA, but these statements below contradict themselves. What exactly is the problem if the Vic State Govt sanctioned the sport in schools.
“WA is more accommodating to codes other than AFL,compared to fortress Vic”
“Getting l Vic govt approval to have RL, offically recognised as a high school sport in 2005/6 is another plus”
You do realise RL did bugger all to promote the code in the early, say 5 – 8years of the Melb Storm. Promotion other than “come and see a real game” Where were the junior programs in Victoria? Where were the expat RL leagues in Victoria? They fashioned a team with lots of money and players (except lazarus) with zero profile, even bought themselves a premiership in the second year, but they didn’t do the hard work that is required. Fortress my arse, RL got what it deserved, they have finally learnt their lesson after appoint a former AFL administrator who knows Melbourne.
The AFL has learnt this the hard way (Swans in Sydney). That is why AFL Gold Coast has a very good chance of success, but western Sydney needs more time (in my opinion). But at least there are junior programs (Auskick) in place well before the team arrives.
Michael C said | May 5th 2008 @ 2:21pm | Report comment
Corsscoder -
GC – it wasn’t as though it wasn’t a target location – - there’d been, what, 2 prevous attempts that failed to ‘hold water’…..and on the third attempt it works – - in a very, very much priority location for sooooo many reasons. It didn’t just ‘pop up’ from out of the blue – - or – - like the Storm get deposited ‘out of the blue’ on an unsuspecting Melb public.
The only ground work the RL authorities (whomever they be) did in Melb was to play 3 SoO matches at the MCG to crowds reducing by about 50% each time (from 80+ K to 25K) – - and claiming MElbournians will watch and support anything.
Do you realise how disrespectful and, to a degree, arrogant that was??
So – as Redb has pulled you up on – be careful how much you just write it off as ‘fortress Vic’.
But – - also, keep mindful that property prices means that Vic is growing, Melb is growing, faster than Sydney – - and, so, for similar reasons that you now regard WA as ‘more accommodating’ – - so too is Vic becoming more accommodating.***
Therefore, RL MUST (and is) capturing some of that ‘relocated’ demographic. As it is, most times I drive past a local soccer or rugby match on the way to footy – - there’s a fair ‘ethnic’ thread running through the teams (note that I live in outer Northern subs and play in the VAFA for a club in the mid-outer S-E suburbs – -it doesn’t make much sense – but, what it means is I get to drive in many different directions to many different locations – - and see a lot of local sport along the way to or home). Anyway, my point is – that these ‘minor’ (for want of a better term, so, don’t pick me up on it) codes ARE targetting the ’sympathetic’ demographic (as you’d want to to establish a foothold – and, I’d presume the AFL would generally be a first stop for ex-pat AFL state folk).
Reality though is that the Storm was deposited in absolute foreign territory – - – up against existing firmly entrenched opposition – - – -and just WHAT was supposed to happen?
If I wanted to be as ‘anti’ as some folk seem to desire to be towards Aust Footy – - I could point out that that Goulburn Murray is mostly made up of NSW/Vic border region towns – and, so, just as the Sydney centric anti AFL mafia write off any player recruited from Wagga west or south as not being ‘REAL’ NSW people………well, you know where that’s going……..
- – - just in case you claim that Sydney was absolute foreign territory for the Swans – -
not quite I don’t think – in some respects, because it really does appear that the arrogance or short sightedness of the VFL by result was to just clobber ‘local footy’.
***
today I heard on the news that Melb has ‘fallen’ to be the 4th most expensive city – behind Syd and resources boom Brissie and Perth.
Crosscoder said | May 5th 2008 @ 2:52pm | Report comment
RedB
No contradiction whatsoever.
By more accommodating ,insert general public based on history,the fact that rl had a far stronger junior presence in that state for decades than Vic for a few years.
The WA govt,has a history it appears being willing to assist other codes in playing matches in Perth.The Vic govt only since SOO and the Storm’s arrival have really got into it.
You don’t have to tell me about lack of promoting junior rl in Victoria in the past,just like lack of promoting junior AFL in the past in Sydney.Suffice to say it is now happening.
Funny you mention Lazarus,Melburnians I know who have an inkling of rl seem to remember a bloke by the name of Marcus Bai(a cult figure).
Bought themselves a premiership LOL,with many players unheard of(some unwanted,some discards from the reds) not the multitide of stars othere team had.Maybe the coach,the fact they lived in an outpost,were all tradesmanlike players with a couple of gooduns had a little to do with it.Utter crap and nonsense that they bought a team of stars.
Currently no one heard of Billy Sllater a few years ago,Mat King was a Sharks discard,no one heard of Cronk.You may know AFL but RL you are on another planet .
They may not have done initially the hard work developmentally for junior rl,but to assume that applied to the teams takes the cake and the whole pie shop.Of course anyone with a closed AFL mind,says there is no such thing as fortress AFL,visitors to Victoria would tend to disagree.
Deelopment work is going on now for rugby league so either be happy or accept it.
A.D’s comments in the past would also suggest otherwise .
Remember the AFL’s head office comments that the Titans got lucky on the Gold Coast.Solid gold crapola.The Swans got decent assistance with draft picks and finance,ask other AFL clubs.The new GC AFL franchise will indeed need to do its homework,and not carry on like Ron Clarke does on the coast,because the code will gain more enemies than friends.
westy said | May 5th 2008 @ 3:28pm | Report comment
Michael C……I do know a little about the 2nd reincarnation of the Gold Coast team the Gold Coast Chargers. They were not broke and their demise had very much to do with the peace treaty between the ARL and News LTd Super League. Just like Czeckoslovakia at the the Munich Conference the Gold Coast Chargers were sacraficed for peace in our time. It did not assist their cause at the time that the Brisbane Broncos were owned by News Ltd and part of the peace deal was a 5 year monopoly in south east Queensland for the Broncos. You see there is real animosity between these 2 Qld teams , You may also be interested to know that the Western Reds were solvent in terms of operating revenue/costs , their 9000 crowd average despite poor performances was well above several surviving Sydney clubs. Unlike Melbourne and Adelaide their was also a solid 20 year old junior rugby league competition that did surge when they played. There was some talent here several going on to play NRL. In other words a lot better than Victoria. This still exists but much of the momentum has gone to Rugby. The ARU were well aware of these old League figures when they decided for WA and its mining money over the well funded corporate Rugby bid from Vic Rugby.
Michael C said | May 5th 2008 @ 3:33pm | Report comment
Westy -
cheers,
so -
basically – backs up that the GOld Coast – really, was always going to be there – and was just a real obvious matter of time (i.e. if it were not initiated from without then it would from within).
whereas – the NRL does seem to have lost ground in Perth to the ARU – - and, are now seeking to reclaim that ground. And, that would perhaps be a task made easier were there to be a domestic ‘elite’ club – - – however, the existance of the ‘pathway’ to the East Coast NRL makes a mockery of Gallops recent comments about the great strength being that local kids can play for their home town team……..(not trying to be antagonistic here – - but, just like making political promises from electorate to electorate – - you effectively have to hope that no one is telling todays audience what you said to yesterdays audience.)
Redb said | May 5th 2008 @ 3:41pm | Report comment
Crosscoder,
So are you saying the other NRL teams in 1999 were all crap because a bunch of nobodies with no talent beat them?
I said “They fashioned a team with lots of money and players (except lazarus) with zero profile, even bought themselves a premiership in the second year, but they didn’t do the hard work that is required” Never said they bought themselves a team of stars. Bought the premiership becuase 100% of players were plucked from elsewhere, can’t have been too bad.
I think my post makes it clear that RL / Melb Storm deserved little respect from the public. This is largely due to two things 1. Hubris – shunning those who were interested and 2. Indifference – from the majority who have no reason to dump AFL – which has always garnered more passionate fans who turn up to games, become club members,etc and that by itself makes them harder to win over does it not? Melb Storm play in the same seaon as the AFL.
Melb Storm had to learn what the Swans had to learn, you are second in the marketplace get used to it or get out.
RL fans can’t accept that sports fans in Melbourne don’t fall over themselves for rugby league, therefore there must be a media conspiracy or all fans are brainwashed.
As MC has mentioned there are more RL expats in Melbourne these days, they are likely to provide a small base for the code as VFL expats did for the Swans, Lions,etc.
AFL expats are now making a small base for Aust footy overseas.
Redb
Redb
.
Redb said | May 5th 2008 @ 3:51pm | Report comment
Crosscoder,
Dunno re Marcus Bai being a cult figure, perhaps, the brick with eyes had a high profile in Melbourne and did the code wonders, always willing to get on the radio and talk footy (all codes). After the 99 GF he left to go back to Brisbane and there probably ended the mometum from the GF win in Melbourne. Here endeth the lesson in PR. No Melb Storm player has since been able to get a profile on Melb media, do they reallty care or try? Billy Slater maybe one fo the finest going around, but hes nowhere to be seen on the Melb media scene – the only person we hear is Brian Waldron CEO of Melb Storm. Mark Geyer is too quiet for media.
Bellamy talks as if he’s in a bunker on foregin soil.- they give us nothing Crosscoder so they get nothing.
Redb
Koala Bear said | May 5th 2008 @ 4:14pm | Report comment
Paul wrote: I resent the marketing approach of Soccer in Australia, that they claim to be the true version of Football, and that they have a greater claim on the name. This is historically, grossly inaccurate. Australian Rules Football or Footy is an older game than Soccer and Soccer did not even exist before 1863, when it split with the then dominant version of the game, Rugby.
Paul,
I am interested to know what your take is on Sheffield football (UK) as it claimed to have been codified in 1857 one year earlier than Aussie Rules claims. Also you have not mentioned Harrow Football, which has been claimed as a direct link to Football in the UK, first played in the 14th century; a direct ancestor of the first form of Sheffield Football. Which was claimed by SBS The World Game historians.. Do you have any reasonable explanation of leaving that out of your thesis..
~~~~~~~
KB
The Link said | May 5th 2008 @ 4:24pm | Report comment
RedB, think you mean Matt Geyer there, but perhaps you have proved your own point by doing that!!
Seriously, no RL fan would think that Melbourne fans would just fall over themselves for the game. A niche is all that’s needed. No code ‘deserves little respect’ from fans it’s trying to attract, just a chance. There’s probably better ways than others in trying to do that though. Question though, how successful were VFL games played in Sydney pre-Swans? I can’t recall any SOO type crowds, perhaps this did cloud the judgement as to League’s popularity in VIC (as does TV ratings for Storm GF’s in VIC).
You raise an interesting point though, as the founding CEO of the Storm was John Ribot, one of the public faces and architects of Super League. You can argue that the SL approach had arragance and hubris in spades. Perhaps this translated to the establishment of the Storm in the early years?
A lesson indeed for any AFL expansion international or otherwise.
Michael C said | May 5th 2008 @ 4:36pm | Report comment
There were 2 games at the SCG in 1979 – I remember one in particular, Hawthorn accounted for my North Melbourne by 51 pts (such a waste of an ultra rare ‘live broadcast’ of ones own team).
the aggregate crowd being 48,535.
In 1980 – 4 games for agg 65K
In 1981 – 2 games for 33K agg.
and in 1981 one at the gabba for over 20K. (rich vs fitz???)
Not bad for completely neutral club matches in a competition NOT involving anything but Victorian clubs – - – so, compared to SoO crowds of 80K dropping to 52K dropping to 25K for the ultimate representation of RL – - the premise to attempt to insert a club into Sydney seemed to hold water.
And – in reality – it has. Certainly the writing was on the wall. For all to see – - no matter how shocked anyone might have claimed to be when it finally DID happen.
—-
Storm – I remember Bai, Kearney, Nikau (? – - had a wretched time since),…a couple over the journey like Kearns and Geyer, and Smith (there’s been two C.Smith’s – haven’t there? Craig and Cameron?)
Paul said | May 5th 2008 @ 4:54pm | Report comment
Koala Bear,
Sheffield Rules of 1858
The first written set of laws were produced at the clubs first annual general meeting on 21 October 1858. The original draft was amended at the same meeting to produce the following set of rules for the 1858–59 season.[11]
The kick off from the middle must be a place kick.
Kick out must not be more than 25 yards [23 m] out of goal.
A fair catch is a catch from any player provided the ball has not touched the ground or has not been thrown from touch and is entitled to a free-kick.
Charging is fair in case of a place kick (with the exception of a kick off as soon as a player offers to kick) but he may always draw back unless he has actually touched the ball with his foot.
Pushing with the hands is allowed but no hacking or tripping up is fair under any circumstances whatever.
No player may be held or pulled over.
It is not lawful to take the ball off the ground (except in touch) for any purpose whatever.
The ball may be pushed or hit with the hand, but holding the ball except in the case of a free kick is altogether disallowed.
A goal must be kicked but not from touch nor by a free kick from a catch.
A ball in touch is dead, consequently the side that touches it down must bring it to the edge of the touch and throw it straight out from touch.
Each player must provide himself with a red and dark blue flannel cap, one colour to be worn by each side.
[edit]
Sheffield was more similar to rugby than soccer. This is just another case of history being twisted by pro-soccer people, in this case SBS.
Michael C said | May 5th 2008 @ 4:54pm | Report comment
KB -
surely there’s a tingling of excitement seeing those old dark navy blues saluting over at Subi on Friday night…….good game that – - WCE looking like turning around an 8 goal half time deficit….whilst, come Sunday…Melbourne DID turn around an 8.5 goal deficit……what a weekend, that and a couple of games running the gauntlet of draws……
- – -
now – Sheffield is just another of the codes that formed the hybrid code of rules that the merged London/Sheffield FA went forward with from the late 1870s – - even after the VFA had been formed. Up until that time – the merging of rules was not yet finished.
Now – as you well know – and have tried to point out – - Melb Rules can well lay claim to rules from the general pool of rules that included those of Harrow. You and Roy Masters seem agreed on this, along with rules from the school of Rugby. Melbourne DOES NOT lose it’s place in the family tree because it moved off shore – - rules are portable.
So – the Melb hybrid rules of 1859 vs the London/Sheffield hybrid rules of — was it 1877 the last year that Sheffield still played by it’s own rules – so, from 1878 onwards – we finally had what we should regard as the FA rules.
Even if we allow for Ballarat and GEelong firmly falling into line with Melb in 1866 – - the Victorians hold sway. ’tis a mere technicality that Sheffield and Melbourne at first had no one to play but intra club scratch matches. It’s hard to claim an ‘association’ of one – - but they were cricketers – so, they make up their own rules…….well, actually, in a sense, they DID!!!
——
seriously – - good to see both the Rabbit-ohs and Melb EffCee getting up for their first wins of the year. No one likes seeing duck eggs for so long on the ladder in the ‘W’ column.
——
btw – how are the wrists going? Is recovery progressing well? Have you tried your arm at a wrongun’ to compare recovery with SCG MacGill???
Koala Bear said | May 5th 2008 @ 5:57pm | Report comment
Paul,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheffield_F.C.
Harrow Football 14th century – Sheffield Football 1857
If it looks like Football has the same round ball as football, played with 11 field player as football, its more than likely is football.. (socca to you I guess). It has been claimed that Willis hand written rules exist in a Melbourne institution. However, no one has yet been able to produce a PDF file of it for anyone to view.. That seems strange to me.
However you can see a Ballerat version 1867, which has been floating on a web site that says they are similar but not exactly the same set of rules. Also strange that no one has been able to clarify the difference or are we Football folk just have to take your word for it…. I am afraid not I will follow the school of thought of FIFA and the English Football Association.. Thanks very much.. Check out the video link below..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4I3-w9589E
The game
Whereas soccer is a kicking and passing game and rugby a handling and ball-carrying game, Harrow Football is essentially a dribbling game. An important feature is the offside rule whereby a player must be behind the ball before he can play it. Handling is allowed from a kick on the volley: the ball may be caught and a call of “yards” allows the catcher a space of three running yards unmolested and a free kick out of the hands.
The purpose of the game is to score a ‘base’, which is achieved by kicking the ball between two vertical posts, a pair of which is at each end of the ground, similar to rugby posts but without a cross-bar. This may be done either from open play or from ‘yards’ and the kick may be of any height.
The teams are eleven a side, comprising four centres, two wings on each side of the field and three backs.
In a typical phase of play, the ball will be dribbled down the field quite slowly by the centres. They may be tackled soccer style, or knocked off the ball by their opponents (all shoulder charging is allowed, except in the back) but if they manage to work the ball down to within kicking range of their opponents’ base, one of them will turn and ‘give yards’ to a team mate. On ‘taking yards,’ the catcher then has the opportunity of kicking the ball between the posts and scoring a base.
In the course of the dribble the ball may fly out to, or be passed to, the wings. Progress is usually faster on the drier fringes of the ground and wings tend to be smaller, nippier footballers. If they manage to take the ball up to the base line, they will either centre it or ‘give yards’, which can then be transferred to a team mate nearer the middle of the field.
If the ball crosses the side line, there is no restriction on how the ball may be thrown in. It is therefore usually bowled in by one of the backs, a method which will often send it as far as a kick. As the offside rule does not apply from throws, it will be seen that a throw near the opponents’ end of the field is an attacking opportunity. On the other hand, if the ball crosses the base line from a defender, the ball must be thrown in perpendicularly from the crossing place, a rather less threatening situation unless it happens to be very near the base.
The ball
The Harrow ball is constructed from three pieces of leather, two circular and one rectangular. The circumferences of the circles are stitched to the longer sides of the rectangle, and the two ends of the rectangle are also joined. A rubber bladder is inserted into the leather case through this short join and the opening is closed with a lace. The inflated ball thus becomes an approximately spherical shape. It is larger than a soccer ball, its circular section having a diameter about 27.5cm at its largest. Dry weight is about 820 grams.
In 1999 a football was found in the rafters of Stirling Castle, supposedly above Mary Queen of Scots’ bedroom. It was formally identified by the National Museum in Edinburgh as being 430 years old and therefore the oldest surviving football.
Interestingly, its construction is exactly the same as a Harrow football: two circular pieces of leather stitched to a central rectangular piece curved to form a cylinder. This is a neat way of forming a near cylindrical shape with just three components. However the Harrow ball is considerably larger than the Stirling ball, being nearly a foot across in its widest part.
This size of ball, particularly when soaked in water and caked in mud, is only headed by the more foolhardy player – and then only once. A better, safer and more effective way of meeting the aerial ball is with the shoulder, known as ‘fouling’. The ball may be ‘fouled’ whenever it may not be caught, that is from a throw or a base kick.
~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | May 5th 2008 @ 9:29pm | Report comment
KB -
oldest just means mouldiest – - surely,
I wouldn’t want to be using a ball from the attic or under the bed of Mary Queen of Scots……
Norm said | May 5th 2008 @ 10:26pm | Report comment
Re SoO crowds -;
RL- NSW v Qld in Melb 30/5/90 Olympic Park 25800
8/6/94 MCG 87161
31/5/95 MCG 52994
11/6/97 MCG 25105
AFL – Vic v SA in Sydney 0
Paul said | May 5th 2008 @ 10:35pm | Report comment
Koala Bear,
There were many public boys schools through out the 1800s that had their own rules. This was very wide spread. In the 1840s train travel became common, which allowed schools to play against each other. The variation in rules was as different as the geographic location of a school. Before a game the schools would have to agree on the rules before they could play. This was the way that football always worked. In fact Australia vs Ireland games in the present day are a continuation of this tradition, of finding common rules so two teams can play against each other.
So various schools had their own unwritten rules, which were constantly in flux. The reality is that the two major distinctions between Rugby and Soccer began in the 1820s. Touching the ball with the hands was always a common trait of English folk football games, also known as “Mob football” or “Shrove Tuesday Football”. The Rugby School were the first to *carry* the ball, but handling the ball had been allowed before this. The Eton School were the first to introduce the rule of playing without the hands. This means the embryonic beginnings of both Rugby and Soccer was during the 1820s. BUT, this does not mean that either sport had been born yet.
The Rugby School were the first to codify their rules in 1845. These rules became very popular but not all schools wanted to play by them. The Cambridge Rules were drawn up in 1848 to find a version that more schools were willing to play. The Cambridge Rules were some where in between present day Soccer and Rugby. The Sheffield Rules of 1858 were in some ways similar to Cambridge Rules. Handling was allowed and catching, but not carrying. Carrying and Hacking/ Tackling were the two biggest distinctions in 1863 that caused Rugby people to walk out on the Football Association. It must be pointed out that the Rugby School never even attended the Football Association meetings.
For me, a rather amusing comment was made by the initial treasurer of the Football association. His name was F.W Campbell. He was from the Blackheath Club, otherwise simply known as “The Club!” Blackheath played by the Rugby rules but were open to finding compromise rules at the 1863 meetings. But Blackheath were upset by the 1863 Association Football rules that wanted to ban carrying and tackling with the hands and decided to pull out of the association. F.W Campbell said in response to the rules: “hacking is an essential element of the ‘football’ game that this club (Blackheath) wants to play. To eliminate hacking would “do away with all the courage and pluck from the game, and I will be bound over to bring over a lot of Frenchmen who would beat you with a week’s practice”. Other clubs who enjoyed the game of Rugby followed Blackheath’s decision and later formed the Rugby Union in 1871.
A quote from the Wikipedia article on the Harrow Game : “The Laws of Harrow football are often framed in broad terms, which allows flexibility in their application depending on the nature of the game. There is no definitive guide and arguments over more obscure laws on the sidelines often result because of this.” There is no mention of codification of Harrow rules. The Harrow game was one of the fore runners of Association Football, to be sure, but just as much as Eton or Rugby schools were, as is quoted by the Harrow School today if you go to their website.
Football for the first half of the 1800s was in a constant state of flux until the process of codification of rules started. That is why I think the only way that a specific birth date can be attributed to any sport is to pin point the official codification date. As Association Football was codified in 1863, all other forerunners are exactly that, but they are not soccer itself. The forerunners had as much in common with Rugby as they did with Soccer.
As far as your comment about Melbourne rules from 1859 are concerned try this link:
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/rewind/txt/s1209463.htm
My guess is that MCC does not want to put this valuable document through a computer scanner as the light would damage it. You can go down to the Melbourne Cricket Club Museum and view the original 1859 rules yourself. It sounds like you are a real skeptic that you would doubt their existence. Politely- I wonder do you also doubt the existence of Jesus Christ? (You don’t have to answer that.) There are plenty of documents that refer to the primary document of the 1859 rules, and you can even view the 1859 document for yourself!
Paul said | May 5th 2008 @ 10:43pm | Report comment
Dave,
You said:
The Russian league plays over summer months so why would it effect the Ice Hockey? The Scandanavians are good at Ice Hockey. Are they similarily effected? Would be interested to hear why?
I can tell you what I have seen with my own eyes, and that is nearly all of the outdoor rinks in Russian cities are now disused. Ice Hockey has plummeted in popularity in Russia. These outdoor rinks are now used for soccer in Winter, in the ice and snow! As far as I understand, ice hockey is now more popular in Scandinavia than it is in Russia. I can but only guess, from what I understand of Russians, and that is they would prefer to be like Europe more than North America. Ice Hockey has one world premier competition, the NHL. So ice hockey is viewed as an American sport (invented by the Canadians, but there is no difference in the Russian mind). Soccer is the game of Europe and so Russia in their quest to be fashionably European choose to chase after the soccer dream. This is the best I can do, anecdotally for now.
Sure I can agree to disagree, so long as neither of us try to claim that our preferred code of football is the “best game in the world.”
Paul said | May 5th 2008 @ 10:59pm | Report comment
Michael C
Thanks for trying to bring the discussion back to the original argument: “AFL international expansion won’t happen soon.” The article was pretty digging from the beginning. As many of us avid AFL academics like to note, we can see AFL expanding at a grass roots level in different parts of the world, but we are not claiming that some how there is going to be an explosion of professional leagues around the world.
Will there ever be a professional league outside of Australasia (I am taking into account that the AFL may choose to expand to New Zealand at some point)? Probably in our wildest dreams. Or probably no sooner than 20 years minimum. The recent desired goals of AFL or “Footy Wild” in South Africa is that the competition there would be as strong as Western Australia or South Australia within 20 years. Does that mean there would be a professional competition there in 20 years? Probably not, But they may be able to field a team of South African all stars in test matches against Australia, and they will probably have a very strong amateur competition. It would obviously take more players than that to make a professional competition.
So you are right in saying that AFL competitions around the world are really only potential recruiting grounds. Professional players from these compeitions would certainly strenghten them, even though it would not be enough for them to turn professional themselves.
Regarding the Gaelic Football Association, it is interesting to note, that although it is still an amateur game, it is more popular than both Rugby and Soccer in Ireland. I for one hope that they do turn professional. It would greatly strengthen their sport and in turn competition against Australia. (I understand that there was some resentment from Irish players about some violence on the field, and the Amatuer v Professional image led the Irish to break off the compeition.)
Crosscoder said | May 6th 2008 @ 8:18am | Report comment
MichaelC
I will repeat one more time,the Gold Coast application and groundwork was done by the GC Titan officials.The area had failed before with the Seagulls and the private consortium Giants.The Chargers had money in the bank,but were casualties of the SL war.The NRL was hardly going to rush in again ,unless they were totally convinced(which they were)by the compelling titan’s submission.The NRL with limited financial resources ATM, knows full well,a new team takes a slice of the financial pie,and really wasn’t pushing expansion.
The Storm as you say popped up out of the blue ,and in the eyes of Melburnians that is arrogant.Conversely a not very financial and down and just about out Sth Melbourne ,was dumped into Sydney as a means of survival.The Swans received a lot media support in the early days.Too bad for the rest of the populace who followed other codes.That sir is also arrogant.
Note also, Melbourne in the pre Super league war days,had been targetted as expansion territory,by the likes of the ARL’s Ken Arthurson and the VRL.So it was a target as you like to put it.
Both the Storm and the Swans in their early days were negligent in grassroots work,so just bagging the Storm only(as redB does) is hypocritical.
Just like to correct again your play on figures,the last SOO in Melbourne at the T Dome had over 50,000 speccies,not your last quoted figure of convenience 25,000.The 25,000 happened in the midst of the SL war-so that is a very poor example.
It has been claimed by all and sundry usually the Vic govts that Melbourne is the sporting capital.No one in the ARL/NRL has stated the Melburnians will watch anything ,some public cynics in NSW may well have.
When you say your constant shadow RedB “has pulled me up”,rest assured he has barely kept pace.
On the general discussion of arrogance let me throw in some quotes from the AFL heirarchy:
The Gold Coast(Titans) got lucky,to get where they are”.
“We have the financial clout to expand teams to new areas”.
“We will be expanding into the GC and Western Sydney,regardless what anyone says”.
“We do not have the off field dramas that rugby league has experienced of late” Two days later they had their off field drams and AD remained silent.
“The Gold Coast is AFL heartland”.
The humility of it all.
WA has a history for at least 30 years of being more open to all codes.Victoria since the Storm and more so the Victory has
turned the corner in that regard.Blinkered thinking if you believe otherwise ,not my view BTW.
You bring up the ethnic bit again.I am looking at a picture of kids(big League Magazine late 2007) from schools in the Noble Park area (playing Joey league),involving 7 primary schools with a Melbne Storm DO
Amazing did not see an “ethnic face” among them.There may well have been Pacific islander kids there,even Greeks,Italians,so what! they are all Australians.You get kids involved at grassroots level,the committed adults are hard to shake.
Property prices are even cheaper on the north and south coast of NSW,and SE Qld,so don’t assume all these “demographical ethnics or Sydneysiders”,LOL will be rushing to live in Melbourne,simply because that city is down to the 4th dearest in Oz.
Of course there is no such thing as an (anti RL mafia) operating.In fact what I see and hear on and off,is a figment of my imagination.
Redb said | May 6th 2008 @ 8:58am | Report comment
Crosscoder,
Just to be clear and in its print I said in a post above:
“Melb Storm had to learn what the Swans had to learn, you are second in the marketplace get used to it or get out.” I think that suggests a parallel.
You must read the whole post,for example, I have never read the “Gold Coast is an AFL heartland” – that is pure fiction on your behalf. Proof that the AFL have said this would change my mind.
Of all those alledged quotes, they only one that is valid is the lucky comment. I think the lucky comment re NRL Gold Coast was a very poor choice of words and incorrect. In my opinion, the Titans have really got their act together, I like the franchise, I like their marketing and communtity links, I think they’ve got it right. However, it is not a closed shop to other codes, there is support for AFL on the Gold Coast, it may not be the same people, but there are plenty of factors in play that suggest the AFL will succeed on the Gold Coast as well.
“No one in the ARL/NRL has stated the Melburnians will watch anything” Well you may not have heard it Crosscoder, but for someone who has travelled to Sydney a zillion times, it is a standing joke. However, I’m pleased to report that it has been finally laid to rest, thanks to the Melb Storm.
Paul,
Welcome brother, join the band of AFL fans righting the wrongs and ignorance of a small few. Most here on ther Roar are pretty good folk who play the ball not the man. What started out as a couple of AFL fans talking about the growth of footy overseas in the last ten years must have raised the guns of a small number of foreign code combatants who try and put words in our mouths.
Redb
Crosscoder said | May 6th 2008 @ 8:58am | Report comment
redB.
No sheesh! I am not saying a bunch of “crap’ players were involved in the Storm,simply saying they were hardly household names in rugby league,many from the Reds.You appear to know little about sport,when a team of unknowns or tradesmen players can gell together and create a great side with the right coach and support staff.Howe,Bai,Geyer,Kimmorley,Matt King
not exactly stars before they headed south.
You seem to be getting a bit toey,putting your words into what other people say..The fact that rugby league has the temerity to now do development work in that state ,or the Storm being in 3 G/Fs and winning, is a fait accompli.
No one from the RL is suggesting,hinting or believing that RL will be anything other than a niche sport in Melbourne.
Read my comments to your shadow MC, on the Storm.Get used to the fact they are there in Melbourne,the Victory are well entrenched,and just learn to live with your neighbours.We in Sydney, all accept the fact that Melbourne is the AFL stronghold.You are talking rubbish when you think rl people expect Melburnians AFL people to fall over themslves for rugby league.
We are realists,anyone who has visited Victoria on business,stayed on holidays,or seen the crowd figures for Melbourne AFL,know where we stand in the pecking order.Do I need to spell it out AFL daylight next,Victory 2nd and then a distance to Rugbleague(Storm).Make you feel better?
Bellamy is a quiet country bloke ,therefore he is not an orator.That is why you supposedly have a marketing/PR dept
In contrast to the AFL with the head honcho coming in letting Sydney know the bull is in the china shop,the other codes can get knotted approach.Maybe he should get out a bit,and learn a bit about diplomacy.Please don’t preach to NSW about arrogance or presumption.
The Swans did stuff all development in the early years,yet got more media coverage than they deserved.They gave nothing in the early years,and really deserved nothing.Yet the SL war gave them the leg up.
Visited a lot of rl expats in Victoria that have all of a sudden moved to Victori a LOL?.From what I understand its the resource areas of WA and Perth and the coast of NSW and SE Qld,where these supporters are heading.
Good on AFL expats for expanding their game overseas,it is happening also with English,NZ and Australian expats doing the same successfully for rugby league.
Norm said | May 6th 2008 @ 9:22am | Report comment
Lets go back to the original thread & see what AFL fans find misleading & inaccurate.
AFL is not the most popular football code in the country.
There exists International Rules domestic leagues & clubs.
AFL footballers do play Aussie Rules Test Matches against whoever.
AFL is the dominant code in NSW & Qld.
The efforts of expats is not admirable.
There are no American flags planted on the moon.
AFL is not uniquely Aust & doesn’t provide healthy choices for youth.
Looks like a litany of errors to me.
John Ryan said | May 6th 2008 @ 9:47am | Report comment
Crosscoder and Norm,don,t bother, the daisy chain has reformed and the AFL people are happy all agreeing with each other, the only difference is they have found (from Big Footy or a very deep mud hole) a couple more to lengthen it,leave them to they delusions and mutual backside kissing and self congratulation.
Michael C said | May 6th 2008 @ 10:36am | Report comment
Crosscoder -
re the Titans —- yes, granted that you want to pay homage to the particular individuals that brought THIS incarnation of a GC RL team to the fore – and thus far, a successful model.
What I’m more on about is that the GC is NOT ‘virgin’ territory for RL. It is firmly within the Sydney – Bris corridor and so close to Brisbane that it was just a matter of time – - it WAS going to happen. (and I sympathise for the Central Coast RL fans – that have been stuffed around, have to sit back and watch the Storm doing in foreign cold Melbourne when that bunch of NSW and QLD players could just as well be playing out of Gosford.).
Anyway – the thing for AFL is that the GC is NOT entirely virgin AFL territory either – - and the Southport Sharks are central to the success of the franchise – - i.e. if Southport WERE NOT ‘onside’ – then the AFL would have a wretched time garnering support – - as it is, the reality of past failures (by either or all codes – the lessons are there for all to learn) and recent successes – - there really is a model to follow now (for certain aspects of the ‘business’ side of things). The player ‘model’ is another story – and very specific to each code and their player market.
The particular input at varying levels of the umbrella body – will vary from situation to situation. That’s a no brainer – however, via the FFA we’ve seen a recent example of the governing body effectively stalling what are thought to be perfectly valid new clubs – - for the purposes of the FFA and the ‘good of the game’ rather than just allowing whatever new franchise has organised itself to come in whenever it wants.
The NRL NEEDED the Titans to remove the draw, to gain an extra game a week – - whoopee – -suddenly, they set a new attendance record……with 24 extra games – - they’d bloody well want to. And, the NRL would’ve been particularly keen to get the new club in before the centenary year. Was it all just devine accident?
Crosscoder said | May 6th 2008 @ 10:39am | Report comment
John Ryan
Agreed,the mutual admiration society follow the same well worn and blinkered path.
Redb said | May 6th 2008 @ 10:50am | Report comment
John ryan,
Good point, why don’t you and your fellow anti-AFL squad find another thread and leave us to our delusions.
Redb
Michael C said | May 6th 2008 @ 11:05am | Report comment
Crosscoder -
as distinct from the group of knockers? – that includes….YOU, and you’re mate John Ryan . . . . lovely bit of mutual admiration you’re displaying……(wouldn’t go astray in a RU scrum – one thinx) – - how far away are Realist, and Treizistes…..(are they actually separate people or just different incarnations of John Ryan??)
ZAC – - – knock knock!!! Wake up!!!! John Ryan is back seeking to stir up trouble!!!!! Y’know, doing his best NOT to follow the topic, doing his best to make it personal.
HEEELLLLOOOOOO – are you in there????
Michael C said | May 6th 2008 @ 11:40am | Report comment
Norm -
so – re. SoO crowds – that had an early peak at the MCG, and then fell away VERY drastically over the next couple of years – clearly illustrating that the ‘novelty’ value had faded. So – - would you suggest that was a strong foundation upon which to insert a club into effectively virgin RL territory (i.e., on the ground, ‘f’ all RL played in the parks – - thus, assuming a ‘build/plant it’ and they will come/grow TOP-DOWN effect).
btw -
Vic vs SA – - why did you insert that? What’s that got to do with anything?
What do you reckon would’ve been the crowd for a Vic vs SA match in sunny Sydney mid winter for the Vic and SA fans to have a chance at a weekend break in Sydney town bracketing a SoO match at a venue such as the SCG (and it’s limited capacity)……
remember – re the RL SoO matches at the MCG – applying a ‘real capacity’ of about 95K at the time.
8/6/94 MCG 87161 = ~8K empty
31/5/95 MCG 52994 = ~42K empty
11/6/97 MCG 25105 = ~70K empty.
By ‘97 – - you’d really be thinking wouldn’t you – that, just perhaps – just perhaps, Melb was going to be a really tough nut to crack – - – because – unlike some of the RL drivel that some produce – RL is NOT a game ‘owned and developed’ by Sydney in anywhere near the way that AFL IS a game ‘owned and developed’ by Melbourne (irrespective of any other argument – - Melb and Aust Footy grew up together from the same origins – - i.e. people draw together from WHERE-EVER – seeking to build a life – - rather than those states born from penal colonies…….).
Norm said | May 6th 2008 @ 11:50am | Report comment
Re SoO crowds
191,060 is a much bigger number than 0.
Not interested in ” what would have been ” scenarios.
Michael C said | May 6th 2008 @ 12:07pm | Report comment
Norm -
Relevance? Council?
How is it relevant to the issue of depositing a club —- A CLUB.
Weekly support likely toward a club is hardly able to be gauged via a couple of SoO matches at the MCG.
Well – in a sense – it allowed the honeymoon to finish – - and, by match 3 at the ‘G, the 25K probably illustrated the true support for such a ‘regular’ EVENT match – - so, extrapolate from that the likely support FOR A CLUB.
Can you comprehend that that is the perspective here – - that with zero grass roots RL – - and, nothing to do with the OVERALL aggregate – becuase, who knows how many people went once only, or flew down from Syd and Brissie for the first SoO……by the time another 2 had been contested in the following 3 years – the crowd had dropped over 60K!!!!! The balloon had popped.
And yet – the ‘arrogance’ was to STILL send in a manufactured ‘club’ and be surprised that Melbournians didn’t turn up in great numbers on freezing cold winter evenings at Olympic Park…..when the footy was on either over the road at the ‘G or on tele??????
That is the point.
Congratulations though – 191K for 4 games of SoO – - almost a 50K average – - that’s excellent – -
what did it mean though?
The VFL had played 8 NEUTRAL club games – - zero attachment for majority of Sydney folk – for an aggregate of 146K – - does that mean anything??
Well, it meant that the VFL had gathered some useful almost worst case baseline data – - the ARL/N(SW)RL hadn’t.
In 1982 – the newly relocated Swans drew an aveage 16k for the 11 home games – - and what was the average for the 8 ‘test’ games – - 8 into 146 – - about 18K. A fairly indicative result. Especially if you remove the ‘novelty’ factor earliest games in 1979 that averaged 24K. 6 into 98 goes 16. The VFL had done far, far more realistic prepping of the market. (note, they then flattened out around 12s and even 10K avg, until relatively successful in the Capper/Edelsten era and getting about 22K avg in ‘87).
Even now – that the poorly followed North Melb (aka Kangaroos) have averaged about 11K at Cararra – indicates that the AFL will probably be hoping for 15K avg over the first 3 years for the new GC team when it kicks off.
Redb said | May 6th 2008 @ 12:13pm | Report comment
Norm,
Care to compare the quantum of total crowds at Australian football matches in NSW to total rugby league crowd attendances in Victoria over the last ten or twenty years?
Redb
Norm said | May 6th 2008 @ 12:18pm | Report comment
only if you make the same comparison for both codes in UK & NZ.
Crosscoder said | May 6th 2008 @ 12:57pm | Report comment
RedB
Have to respond, although have other things to do.
Actually we are 3rd in the market place in Victoria(after the Victory).Rugby league or at least i do accepts it.
The statement the GC is AFL heartland I have heard on more than a few occasions ,prior to the arrival GC Titans.These occasions coincided with regular vists to the strip.You call it fiction if you so wish,I know what I heard.Ron Clarke when the dispute over the use of Carara by the Titans intimated as much.
If Demetriou as I heard on a press conference state words to the effect “we are going into those two areas,let no one believe otherwise’ is not arrogant,then diplomacy has a different meaning.I don’t tape record sporting conferences.
You see the problem is ,you assume I say there is no room for other codes such as AFL on the GC.Never said so.
You assume I think Victorians will embrace rugby league never said so.
Standing joke by whom in the NRL? that Vics will watch anything absolute rubbish,some of the public sure,won’t argue that point.Whether you have visited Sydney 10 times your zillion visits ,I have yet to see someone from the NRL say the Vics will watch anything.If anything the NRL has stated the Vic market is a hard nut to even crack,even Wally Waldron who knows the market confirmed the point.
Redb said | May 6th 2008 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
Norm,
Let’s start with AFL in NSW and RL in Victoria first.
Redb
Redb said | May 6th 2008 @ 1:07pm | Report comment
Crosscoder,
re your last sentence, I agree the penny has finally dropped and if you read my earlier posts on this journey you will ntoe that it wasnt until they got Waldron that things started to turn around, including gettting juniors,etc.
Press release from Demetriou, let’s set the record straight with factual real statements about he AFL’s push into the Gold Coast:
AFL launches formal Gold Coast process for 17th licence.
The Australian Football League today formally invited a group of Gold Coast business and community representatives to form a board to participate in a 6-month process to demonstrate an AFL licence for a new team based on the Gold Coast had all the foundations for long-term success.
The process establishes the structural elements and framework that the Gold Coast group will have to deliver before a licence is granted.
The bid group will be led by Minter Ellison Gold Coast managing partner John Witheriff, ex-Brisbane Lions president Graeme Downie and Southport Football Club president Alan “Doc” MacKenzie.
AFL Chief Executive Officer Andrew Demetriou said the group would have six months to demonstrate the Gold Coast’s united support for a 17th team by meeting a series of financial and community milestones established by the AFL.
“We believe the Gold Coast is ready. All the work and research we have done over the past two years – along with the work of the Gold Coast Advisory group chaired by John – provides a very strong economic, social and football case in support of a Gold Coast team in one of Australia’s fastest growing regions. But we have a responsibility to ensure the Gold Coast community is committed to building the right framework for its own team to be successful,” Mr Demetriou said.
Mr. Demetriou said the AFL Commission and the 16 AFL clubs had told the AFL to be bold in its bid to expand the competition into the Gold Coast and Western Sydney.
But he said it was now up to the team led by John Witheriff to unite the business, football and the local people of the Gold Coast into whole-of-community support for a new community-based club.
“The AFL Commission and the 16 AFL clubs have strongly supported expansion. We understand the responsibility to our 16 AFL clubs, football supporters and the people of the Gold Coast to get this right and ensure any new club has the strong foundations and the structural elements needed to thrive in a national competition,” Mr Demetriou said.
“Part of our due diligence is making sure that the vocal support from the Gold Coast community is transformed into active support. That the football, business and wider community will unite to build the foundations required to ensure long-term viability and success of an AFL team,” Mr Demetriou said.
“The AFL’s job is to ensure that all the pillars are there for the 17th licence to be granted, and we look forward to continuing to support the local group in order to deliver the right environment for launching a new team.”
Mr Demetriou said the AFL was committed to assisting the local Gold Coast group to achieve their goals and had agreed to a request by the bid group to second a senior AFL manager, Scott Munn, to help manage the project.
The Gold Coast group will also form an alliance with AFL Queensland to help in the development of the football side of the business and the creation of a team to play in a second tier competition in 2009.
“There is a compelling argument for an AFL team to be here. We know this is one of the fastest growing regions in the country, we know there is a great sporting tradition on the Gold Coast and there is a great sense of community excitement and community pride,” he said.
“John has a strong background of supporting initiatives that provide sporting, business and social opportunities for the wider Gold Coast community. Now people and businesses on the Gold Coast have the opportunity to get behind John and his team and become active participants in the establishment of a strong, successful Gold Coast AFL club.”
————————-
Show me the arrogance in that statement. it actually sets conditions and by no means is a no brainer. It is optimistic but that is to be expected.
Redb
Norm said | May 6th 2008 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
start wherever you like just include the overseas numbers for me.
Michael C said | May 6th 2008 @ 1:21pm | Report comment
Redb -
whoooooaaa your horses there……
be very, very careful – - this is further proof of AFL arrogance,
and, apparently AFL sources ARE NOT permissable in support of any of our assertions/points regarding AFL topics. (it’s a tough Mugabe-esque court in session here – me thinx{oh cripes, I probably can’t mention his name either}).
- – -
now – law 1 of any cross code debate -
Soccerheads can go on and on and on about hypothetical teams in Hobart, Darwin, Geelong and Cairns for all they like – and that’s not arrogant, or overly optimistic – - but, what you’ve just done – - presenting a piece of ‘real’ information – - gee…..I dunno how that’ll go down.
law 2 –
marn grook is a myth. William Web Ellis isn’t. Official AFL press releases are fantasy – baseless comments by a host of ’scribes’ are fact.
Right – - I’m waiting to see how you’ll be shot down – - for disclosing of all things that the AFL has a target market – - but – they in NO way are depositing a team (as the old VFL did back in the mid ’80s) – - because, surprise, surprise – - lessons HAVE been learnt.
btw – - note how quick Norm – - realising he was going to lose – - had to bring in the UK and France where he knows he’ll win. Gee – let’s compare crowds at DAFL matches vs those at Danish Rugby League matches…..oh…..there isn’t a Danish RL competition……roight, Denmark IN, France OUT.
Norm, Norm, Norm – - you can’t just expand and contract the terms of referene to suit – - this whole discussion of late is relative to apparent AFL arrognace vs in Sydney/GC etc vs the apparent perfect approach of the RL authorities – - – so, France and England have absolutely ZERO to do with any of it.
Let’s compare AFL numbers in Canada – - with RL in Canada – - oh, sorry, RL in Canada is in ‘recess’ because it collapsed – - there’s nothing there…..AFL wins again!!!!! Woohoo – - manipulating the terms of reference is fun – - shall we all do it???
Crosscoder said | May 6th 2008 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
MichaelC
I am not anti AFL although it’s not my cup of tea,I am anti AFL head office arrogance.The arrogance was not there in the days
of previous AFL head honchos such as Aylett.What I am anti is people continually bagging rugby league,and having done business in Melbourne know the score.I am anti AFL people who refer to “ethnics”‘ as a demographic for rugby league ,which give a race undertone .Trust you get my drift.
I watch AFL G/Fs,just as I watch Melbourne cups(I am not a racing fan),I also watch the Super bowl yet not a Gridiron fan..
The Gold Coast had 2 costly experiments with rugby league,firstly the Seagulls and the privately owned Giants had the home field at Tweed Heads,the belief being it was rugby league territory.They both failed.The Chargers at Carrara were doing reasonable well and lost out iin the SL war.It is not unrealistic to assume the NRL was nervous about a 4th shot at the Gold Coast,especia;lly as no stadium in place.
You are emphatic(know something that many rl people don’t) that the GC was targetted by the NRL to make up 16 teams to avoid a bye.If the Titans were still using Carrara,and not the new stadium,they wouldn’t have got in.
You conveniently ignore the fact Sth Sydney only got in to the NRL due to a court case to make 15 teams.The NRL ideally wanted and probably still do 4 teams in Sydney.1 in Newcastle,1 on the Central Coast,1 in Melbourne,1 in Perth ,1 in Canberra,2 in Brisbane and 1 in NZ .That is 12 teams ,a smaller number getting a bigger slice of the money pie.Its not what the fans want of course.
The NRL have stated loud and clear they want a Sydney side to relocate to the Central Coast.They insist that the 2nd biggest city must retain a NRL side,otherwise any notion of a national competition is hearsay.
Redb said | May 6th 2008 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
Norm,
So you won’t backup your SOO comments comparison in Vic/NSW ! By extension your suggesting that rugby league is huge in Victoria becuase approx 190,000 went to ARL SOO games yet zero went to AFL SOO in NSW.
Redb
Redb said | May 6th 2008 @ 1:31pm | Report comment
Crosscoder,
Why is it that rugby league types are so anti-AFL, it used to be fun poked jibes like aerial ping pong,etc. It is becuase the AFL makes more money than the NRL? What are you guys so scared of?
Redb
Crosscoder said | May 6th 2008 @ 1:33pm | Report comment
redB
I note the specific press conference about the GC from AD,which proves nothing to other AD comments.This does not cover his on TV comments which I saw and heard that the GC and West Sydney are part of the AFL expansion plans ,let no one believe otherwise.
Sorry give me Aylett any day.
Michael C said | May 6th 2008 @ 1:39pm | Report comment
Crosscoder -
I’m actually a bit torn on the Aylett/Jack Hamilton era. I love Allen Aylett – and a lot of what was done was necessary – - – although, there was probably more arrogance back then in certain respects. It really appears the way the Swans were dumped in Sydney WITHOUT any local engagement (i.e. the Aust Footy community up there – - our friend KB will tell you all you need to know – or not). At any rate – - putting the VFL and the clubs of the VFL first resulted in some less than perfect expansion ‘enclaves’. The Swans were so close to failing and had to be rescued, likewise Brisbane – - and likewise for the NRL – Storm is being propped up to a very large degree – - – all probably wish they could have done it a bit different – - I reckon that era of about 1980-1996 ish saw a lot of self righteous arrogance.
Now – perhaps there’s a bit more battle scarred wariness.
Demetriou isn’t perfect – but, he’s not all that bad either – and at least is a former player (106games or so) and a former AFLPA CEO. So – he’s got good runs on the board. I’m not sure how well everyone recovered from the departure of Ben Buckley – - (curse those wretched soccer folk – had about 100 years in this country and still couldn’t find anyone from within, had to go and pinch from the ARU and AFL to find a decent boss!!!!
),
anyway – - at the end of all that – spot the common thread,
Alan Aylett – North Melbourne legend, captain, president etc
Andrew Demetriou – 103 games at North Melb (I saw his debut vs Footscray at VFL park, wearing number 48 – it was my first ever VFL game ‘live’)
Ben Buckley – former North Melb vice captain and I think U19s captain???
so – - I’ve got a bit of a vested interest to perhaps be ‘blinkered/biased’ or to perhaps be more aware of that batch of ‘game’ administrators. (Wayne Jackson and Ross Oakley – - I might think that they were the ones who lost their way a little – - and that way I can safely promote all the North Melb ‘old boys’ as doing what was good for the game in a broader sense.)
Either way, NRL and AFL still struggle to cast aside the chains of the old NSWRL and VFL respectively – - it’s a hard road to follow for both – - and, along the way – - they run huge risks. And as you point out, the whole Superleague fiasco may well have curtailed what by now would’ve been a very firmly established Gold Coast franchise.
cheers
Redb said | May 6th 2008 @ 1:40pm | Report comment
Crosscoder,
C’mon give the guy a break. He doesn’t smile, not very charismatic I know, but I think people read too much into things.
Aylett is a big supporter of AFL on the Gold Coast, as a former North Melb president he even voted for them to relocate.
Redb
Crosscoder said | May 6th 2008 @ 1:47pm | Report comment
RedB
One could ask the same question of AFL types-no necks,neanderthals,bum sniffers etc etc.Its called check your own backyard.As AFL is so strong in Melbourne,why the need to bag rugby league,it surely can”t be insecurity.
Rugby union possibly made more money than rugby league with their world cup in 2003. So your fear argument doesn’t hold water.
if we have learnt one thing ,you can throw around a large amount of cash,it doesn’t guarantee success.Ask the ARU after the reduction in their war chest of $45m now down to $18m,with rugby league continuing to have the greatest number of junior participants in its history.
Michael C said | May 6th 2008 @ 1:48pm | Report comment
How does the ad go -
Plan to become what you plan to be.
The AFL HAS plans – - many we have zero idea about.
Recently I read of a partially cryptic comment by Dave Matthews (in charge of game development – inc. international) and he referred to ‘big plans’…….
NO one has any idea what that might include.
And – what proportion may never come to anything.
Just like the VFL had big plans (architect drawn) for the old VFL Park,
not everything eventuates -
just as the Gold Coast Titans NEEDED local groundwork, so too is that required for the AFL GC franchise.
And – believe me – Tassie aren’t being short changed in all this -
I heard Darryn Cresswell (fromer Syd Swan and Tassie boy) – who is back in Tassie coaching the Tassie Devils VFL team – - and he was surprised to return home to realise that footy in Tassie hadn’t really gone anywhere in the time he was away.
He admits they aren’t at all ready to launch a proper bid for an AFL license – - and that there’s a bit of work still to do. The AFL HAS NOT written them off – the invitation stands to pursue it – in the future. However – the AFL has made NO secret of it’s priority and preferred locations – - which – - all/most/lots/ a bit of rational theory supports (respectively!!!).
Norm said | May 6th 2008 @ 1:58pm | Report comment
“Norm, Norm, Norm – - you can’t just expand and contract the terms of referene to suit”
I seem to recall only recently you objecting to someone telling you what you could & could not do.
Carl Unger said | May 6th 2008 @ 1:59pm | Report comment
Michael,
The only thing that I believe is stopping PNG is Visa issues and crime at games, other clubs might not want to send their players to play there, I don’t know. In regards to TV rights I’m not educated enough to comment their but I certainly don’t want their to be any problems there.
You’re right about the Perth side, we used to have an NRL side their during the Super League war (Western Reds) they really should have remained but no and league is paying for it because of the Western Force. Crowds to NRL matches in Perth have been promising though, I expect ex SydneySiders and Brisbanites to support a Perth league team. The same way the huge ex-victorian demographic in the Gold Coast will support their new AFL side.
I’m not worried about the ARU, to a certain extent the ARU and NRL help eachother out in terms of players, a little more give then take though. Not worried about FFA, I have no reason to worry about them yet. The only code I compare league to is Australian rules, they have decided to attack the NRL’s heartlands, co-existing doesn’t seem to be an option which annoys me a little but I can understand why their doing it.
Carl Unger said | May 6th 2008 @ 2:00pm | Report comment
aww, that last post had terrible grammar, sorry.
Crosscoder said | May 6th 2008 @ 2:01pm | Report comment
RedB
Oakley was the other bloke i was thinking of, decent sort of guy that rl heirarchy also got on with.The trouble with me I was brought up to be courteous and humble LOL not arrogant.
I am sorry but AD comes across as being arrogant ,maybe that makes for a successful administrator,but it gets a hell of a lot of people offside.Other codes’ supporters are of the same opinion.
The CEO of the NRL is not exactly charismatic,but he is diplomatic(the operative word).
Demetriou needs to change tack IMO,and adopt a reasonably sociable approach in new territory.
Redb said | May 6th 2008 @ 2:09pm | Report comment
Crosscoder,
I only have a go at RL when the Anti-AFL squad mobilise and I get bored. Note we are on an AFL thread, I rarely comment on RL threads and when i do I keep the anti stuff to a minimum.
Re AD point taken, pereception is as important as reality and won;t do the AFL any favours to turn fans off, but I think some comments are a little over the top nonetheless. A usual somewhere in the middle is probably right.
Redb
Michael C said | May 6th 2008 @ 2:10pm | Report comment
Carl -
respect your views:
re attacking the heartland – - be a bit careful there – - it seems a fair bit of a NRL (freindly media in Sydney) smoke and mirrors game to over state the ‘war’ aspect of it all.
It’s still a case that the best the AFL will have is 4 teams – okay – a doubling – but, 4 teams in ALL of NSW and QLD including the ACT – - and that includes just what proportion of the Australian population.
The reality is that the FFA via the HAL has been over laying clubs in RL regional strongholds. And, perhaps more to come. Already look at the proportion of HAL clubs in NSW and QLD – and, of the next 4 priority locations verbalised – only 1 is in AFL territory, the other 3 are to further concentrate the HAL in NSW/QLD and directly overlapping the NRL (regional) footprint.
THe AFL is MORE likely to remain ‘niche’ – by comparison – - and,
as we always state – a city like Wagga showed that kids growing up playing both footy and rugby can turn into (meatheads – - nah, I mean…) absolutely champions (whereas, what quality of NRL players grow up playing soccer for their first 15 years??).
I still reckon it’s a period of phoney war between HAL and NRL – - but, it will hot up……believe me, it will……Australia is way too cluttered a football market for it NOT to – -people try to compare overseas – - but, no other country CAN compare to Australia in that respect.
cheers
Michael C said | May 6th 2008 @ 2:29pm | Report comment
A lot of people judged Andrew Demetriou over the AFL ’soft on drugs’ debate.
If you really followed the story – he was anything but arrogant – rather he was tremendously LOYAL to the people that actually crafted the AFL illicit drugs policy – - i.e. the Australian Drug Foundation (and, mind you – the mostly under reported fact that the vast majority of the drugs bodies were supporting the AFL on their stance and urging the AFL to hold strong despite the relentless media and Federal Govt pressure – - including in an election campaign as Brandis and Pyne looked for some heads to kick).
Demetriou was also extremely LOYAL to the AFLPA and the contractual arrangement in place that HELD together the illicit drugs policy.
It suited certain media outlets to under report BOTH sides of that story.
WHat I found arrogant was the silence from the soccer fraternity -
when approached on their drugs policies by Journos they simply stated – ‘We’re in line with FIFA’…..knowing full well (apparently the sports journos DIDN’T know this – or if they did, they chose to ignore it) that FIFA was at war with WADA (read, IOC) – - and need special approval to be permitted to have ’soccer’ on the program in the Athens Olympics – -
basically FIFA AND the AFL were fighting the same battle. Demetriou stuck to his guns. It was admirable.
He DID NOT get stuck into a media slanging match.
He held his tongue. I don’t know how.
He DID refer at times to experts.
Some people scoffed – saying ‘what experts’….
link to the Age report of the open letter:
http://www.adf.org.au/downloads/Age_p.2_11_September.pdf
the open letter itself:
http://www.adf.org.au/downloads/AFL_open_letter.pdf
However – -
did it suit people to mis-represent Demetriou? We’ve seen a few media hatchet jobs done on people over the journey.
btw -
I played footy at Uni with (one o??) Ross Oakley’s son, and got to meet and shake hands with Ross one evening – - he seemed quite okay. His was more a period of consolidation, then came Wayne Jackson and he was from SA and had a bigger picture view too – which was good.
Norm -
Yeah – got me there,
okay, I strongly urge you to NOT attempt to warp and bend the argument to suit your desire to NOT concede a valid point……
Norm said | May 6th 2008 @ 3:14pm | Report comment
not sure I was trying to make any point other than there are lies, dammed lies & statistics.
Michael C said | May 6th 2008 @ 3:28pm | Report comment
Norm -
funnily enough I was trying to impress that on Dave in the MVFC 8th biggest club in Melbourne……..alas……
- – -
btw – - don’t take the impression that I or Redb (I feel I can include he here) with anything against RL at all – -
most AFL fans quite enjoy RL – but, the days of perceiving it as a threat are long gone – -
that hoopla around the Superleague – and the like – the insecure might have thought that the footy fans would be attracted by dancing girls, pumping music and the like that Storm came to town with…….
no need to worry – AFL fans – strange breed that they are – - have done away with dancing girls, have for the most part decried ANY music other than club songs – have a far greater preference for the quaint ‘banner’ (run thru) than for fireworks and PA ‘personal’ introductions…..and, oddly, without the Reserves – are still liable to turn up and hour early – sitting observing a mostly empty stadium and emptying their thermos and eating the sandwiches in preparation for the big game – - – -
the reality – - sometimes – the more someone TRIES to sell something – the greater the suspicion.
(which actually flies against those people who find if they put a sign out the front saying ‘free firewood’ that no one picks it up, but, if they put a sign out saying ‘firewood $5′ people believe they’ve spotted a bargain…..)
Norm said | May 6th 2008 @ 3:34pm | Report comment
Cheers MC
Paul said | May 6th 2008 @ 10:31pm | Report comment
Michael C
I have more to learn about the intricate differences between the game of Rugby Union and Rugby League. But to the naked eye, Union appears to me to be a more spectacular and free flowing game. The history of Union as an amateur one, which is why they do not have a big professional competition. So it may appear that League is the clear leader of the two codes.
I agree with you Michael that League is not a threat to AFL. It may have been at one point and yes Super League did a lot to hurt their chances. It gave the Swans a chance to grab some market share in Sydney.
Here is an interesting link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attendance_figures_at_domestic_professional_sports_leagues
I am constantly surprised at how low the attendance figures are for NRL mathches.
2008 figures for the NRL so far give an average of 18 030 after 59 games, the AFL have an average of 39 802 after 56 games. In the same time period Brisbane Lions have an average of 28 956 and Sydney Swans have an average of 32 671. Rugby Union Super 14 has averaged only a little better than League at 21 834 (including WA).
A merger between League and Union has been touted for years, following the move to professionalism by Union, but perhaps they would be unable to reconcile their rule differences. If they are able to do so, I honestly think they would have a stronger sport.
Rugby League, hmmmm, don’t mind it, but I think Union is better. Still we’re all on the same side of the great 1863 divide.
Michael C said | May 7th 2008 @ 10:13am | Report comment
Paul -
that’s the irony – isn’t it – re the 1863 divide –
but, that can over play the importance of London. The 1863 rules still had a ways to go – and, didn’t speak for the northern folk – of whom Towser now represents.
One thing I DO think people focus too much on – are the early sets of rules – - in that, how much does a set of 10 basic rules really dictate an hour, or 2 or 4 hours worth of play.
And for those who try to assert that the 1858 game(s) in Melbourne definitively represented a single code (i.e. to claim it was nothing more than a game of rugby) – I love this quote from Geoffrey Blainey -
“This was possibly the scratch match remembered long after because NEARLY EVERY IMAGINABLE code of scratch football was imitated in one afternoon.”
“The English players tried a version of rugby and the Scotch played a game that defied description while the Irishmen yelled and punted the ball straight up in the air. While that day some players followed the rules they had learned in the British Isles, others followed no rules at all.”
And – even when a set of 10 rules were ‘written’ (codified if the term is ones want) – - they were fluid and open to interpretation and compromise. Especially over the next 20 years when Melb teams might tour Sydney or play a touring English team.
However – - that fluidity in the Melb rules was hardly unique. The reality is that the London and Sheffield folk had a similar fluidity – - and London FA, like Melb, only produced less than a dozen rule points to begin with – - again, hardly a comprehensive log of rules to guide all interpretation.
——————————–
Crowds – - the NRL figures are up too – - so are the AFL figures – - although, the usual trend is to slacken off come the colder winter months (although, less excuses in Sydney – doesn’t get quite as cold). And as teams start falling completely out of contention.
RL vs RU – -
I find the predictability of the 6 tackle rule in RL a bit boring – and the token scrum is a bit of a waste of time (although, it seems A method of congesting one area, opening up the rest of the field and the team with advantage has the ball – - as, there really is NO contest for the ball).
RU – I do like that you can still accumulate more points (i.e. WIN) via kicking goals. How quaint. It is ironic though that whenever Australia is beaten by a team with a decent field goal kicker that out come the calls for 1 pt field goals like in RL.
It seems like there’s certainly those that want distinct games and those that want more similarity. It just seems to me, that if cricket can have tests, 50/50 and 20/20 matches, why can’t Rugby re-unite and have different formats – already RU has the 7s.
mickey said | May 7th 2008 @ 11:27am | Report comment
To all of those out there with necks, i would like to inform the writer of this article/piece that he is ill informed and incorrect on several issues.
Firstly there is a bi-annual international junior championship played in canberra called the Barassi cup, an international cup every 3 years which has 14 national teams playing this time around. Also Nauru and PNG would call their national sports are AFL football.. As was mentioned read world footy news for the full details on every country.
The game is played in the Asian games and championships are played in and against many nations. Also an event called the arufura games attracts many teams from the region.
I myself work in australian football development and are based in samoa which has juniors, school programs,high school and recreational football.Samoa also has a mens competition and has had since 1998.
The Expat thing is always the case , who do you think brought rugby to the pacific etc but as sustainability and management develop these sports become locally owned and managed and developed..
Samoa also has footy clubs and village teams.
Although australia does not play the code internationally at the top level and has no peers it must be said that at one point in time this situation existed in every developing sport.
I coach around 8 sports and find my skills from almost all of them combined help me play ,teach and coach rules..
Good luck to everyone and check out the afl samoa website (a pretend site straight out of head quarters hahah) seriously check it out on the url
Paul said | May 7th 2008 @ 11:43am | Report comment
Michael C,
I really enjoyed your post. (For the soccer people who have left, see we are patting each other on the back now.)
I think we are coming at things from the same direction. Regarding fluidity of rules, I totally agree with you. The history and evolution of football was completely based upon fluidity of rules. Each school in the 1800s in England had their own version of the game, and had to agree together what the rules would be. Rugby came up with their rules in 1845 and interestingly Tom Wills (not the only inventor, but one of the main four inventors of Melbourne Rules) attended Rugby from the age of 14, and brought back this influence with him, so we have to admit it, Aussie Rules is related to Rugby.
I actually wish that the AFL would not try to celebrate 150 years of Australian football this year. The scratch match between Melbourne Grammar and Scotch was not a game of Australian Rules Football. It was exactly like one of the public boys school games in England, in that they were playing a game of folk football, without a lot of rules. But as they had less of a tradition themselves, they didn’t have many rules to bring to the table. So you are indeed right in saying that the 1858 game had more in common with Rugby than with Aussie rules.
The AFL have only rewritten their history by one year, which is not as bad as some codes, but it is still a non-truth. The birth of the sport has to be traced back to the Melbourne and Geelong clubs in 1859. Yes, 10 rules are few, and it would have left to a lot of interpretation. This can be compared to the fact that many clubs in England were playing by rules that the Rugby School had set up, but also wanted to play clubs that played by Cambridge or Sheffield Rules. They did not see their differences as so large at the time that they were not prepared to sit down in 1863.
So it is true that each code when it began was not so different from the others and that the various codes began to evolve differently. When I look at Rugby Union there are a couple things that remind me of Aussie Rules, definitely the field goal, as you mentioned, and then how the players sometimes do a forward kick over the try line only then to run forwards and dive on it for a try. These are aspects that I can relate to more, and are probably why I prefer it over Rugby League. Interestingly, in the debate over a field goal, originally, the purpose of a try was simply to get a shot at goal. Therefore to “try” to kick a goal. The try was worth nothing, and the goals were just worth 1. The team with the most goals one.
The big difference in 1863 was that clubs who went down the Association path did not want the ball to be carried. They still had not yet prohibited touching of the ball with the hands. A catch was still allowed. The Eton School had previously prohibited touching the ball with the hands back in the 1820s, but the 1863 rules did not. The Eton influence won out and the rule was introduced. Rugby lovers would not give up carrying the ball. The second great difference was that the Association wanted to ban hacking and tackling. Hacking was actually kicking in the shins, something which Rugby banned later on. Tackling the body was also left out of the 1863 rules. So as much as there were other similarities between the dividing clubs of 1863, they did have two great differences, which were the seeds of two very different codes of football.
So although Melbourne had their own rules and Geelong did too, you are right in saying that if they played against clubs that had different rules, they were prepared to play a different or even a hybrid game. This has long been the tradition of football, to play a scratch game by agreed rules on the day. That is why it is a little foolish of people to criticise International Rules between Ireland and Australia. The concept of hybrid rules is one of the oldest traditions in football. older than the codes themselves. Code simply comes from the process of codification anyway. It is the codification that divides us. Hybrid rules show that various traditions can have something in common. There were even some scratch hybrid games of Australian and American football between soldiers in world war 2.
Understanding the concept of fluidity is the only way to understand the history of football. To ignore it, then leads some people to say, “There are so many versions of history, that I really couldn’t care less.” It also leads others to say “The Chinese invented football” or “Aussie Rules began in 1858″ or “Shefflield rules is the true ancestor of soccer” or even “Harrow football is the true ancestor”. The situation is far more complex than that. But I do think that in codification when can see a clear birth date for a code, even though there was still further evolution after that date.
Koala Bear said | May 7th 2008 @ 11:56am | Report comment
Paul I shall say you well may be right. Codification is the way to determine the right to the name of Football. Personally I see it it belonging to Harrow Football with its unique set of early socca rules and forerunner to English Football Association..
Finally the truth..
May 8, 1866, Aussie Rules saw the first codification of its rules by Harrison, Wills, Hammersley and Thompson at the Freemason’s Hotel in Swanston Street, Melbourne. The rules have been changed, adapted and interpreted constantly from this point on.
Tom Willis letter
(1. Does the letter really exist. (2. What do the hand written rules say if in fact they say anything ? (3. Why no PDF file to prove of its existence ? (4. Or is the letter just an announcement of a pending game in 1859.?..
It sought of reminds you of the “Shroud of Turin,” Its there, but no one is allowed to see it or examine it for its authenticity..
Just as a note you can go to any number of Rugby sites or historical websites to read original documents scanned as PDF files so I dismiss what you say as contrived propaganda to only suit your end… with respect.
Also I shall answer the question “do I believe that Jesus existed,” well as I am an agnostic bordering on an atheist comrade. I do believe he did exist as there are writings outside of the Bible recorded by Roman authorities that you can access of the time to prove that.. But I do NOT believe that the world was created in 7 days or man was made in the human image of God.. I am an evolutionist and rely on hard scientific facts to satisfy my curiosity.. Not that I would ever try to persuade you from your first testament Biblical beliefs either.. It’s a free country..
Football
Harrow Football (14th century) = Sheffield Football (1850) = English FA Football (1863) = FIFA Football (1905- present)
Aussie Rules
VFA (1877-96) = VFL (1897-1989) = AFL (1991-present)
So which football has been around the longest..??
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KB
Redb said | May 7th 2008 @ 12:43pm | Report comment
KB,
So which football has been around the longest..??
that’s not the issue. The 150 years is AFL specific its not about other codes of football and their origins, its about our game’s early stages.
The ten initial rules were written in 1859. Its a bit of millenium question do you celebrate in 1999-2000 or 2000-2001. From 1859 there has been 150 years to 2008 of football. The first known game of Aust football was in 1858. simply really. That the rules and competitions (VFA, VFL, AFL) have evolved is part of any sport.
It’s really not an issue for the fans of the game.
Redb
Michael C said | May 7th 2008 @ 1:03pm | Report comment
the 150 year issue – many have missed that the VFL and broader footballing community celebrated in 1958 and 1908. Therefore, it follows to continue in 2008. No surprises there. No ambushing the NRL (who’d have thunk that a RL centenary would be held given the game started in 1895 in England, 1907 in NZ wasn’t it, so, what do the Kiwis think of the ‘centenary’ season they are forced to partake in?).
The 150 years celebration – for me, as a member of a VAFA club – is fitting, as Melb Grammer and Scotch College – as represented by old boys clubs in the higher grades of the VAFA – the 2 institutions still celebrate the 1858 game and this year will be the 150th anniversary.
Why do we all care? Because – that series of days that made up the ‘game’ – - and it’s a very, very loose term – was a watershed moment – because of the SMALL size of the Melbourne community – - and the very much youthful nature of the colony of Victoria – - it WAS actually a momentus time to decide that the people of Melbourne would need to and go about writing their own rules for football – - and also that football would begin to become a part of the local ’scene’. And that game – the fluidity of the rules – the processes of working towards some form of concensus – - the fact that the resultant meetings to establish a set of rules were a flow on effect and that the simple group of 10 rules were suitably agreed upon. That’s enough to suggest that the 1858 ‘match’ was akin perhaps to a pilot episode. Some of the cast and the like may have changed when put into ‘full production’. But – given the nature of ‘inventiveness’ and independance – - it is a ‘match’ worth commemorating.
How widely – that’s another question. I play in the VAFA – I feel no concern about celebrating.
re. the broader community – as Redb points out, the 1859-2008 – - the simple fact that some people struggled with the notion of the 100th SEASON of the VFL/AFL over 1897-1996 just shows what mentality is being dealt with. The simple fact that 2008-150 = 1858 in a pure maths formula isn’t the point here. Because, anyone who manages a database will tell you that that is in fact 151 records – - why? because 2008 IS counted – - if you want to look back 10 ‘records’ in the database – 2008 will return you to 1999.
It’s too simple really……
baffle’em with bulltish…..
Michael C said | May 7th 2008 @ 1:15pm | Report comment
KB – (myth busters!!!)
I draw everyones attention to:
http://www.harrowschool.org.uk/html/overview/tradition/football/
with particular emphasis upon the following points:
“Harrow Football is no exception. It began as an unorganised kick-about in the School Yard (fug football) and slowly developed into an organised activity. From 1803 to 1850 it was played on what is now the Sixth Form Cricket Ground and then, when the School acquired some land on the east side of the Hill, a formal game began to evolve”
“The rules of the games were codified in 1865 by Edward Bowen, later House Master of The Grove”
With much reference to the ‘LOCAL CONDITIONS’ of the playing field –
In 1913, CH Byre, an OH Master, wrote “Soccer and Rugger in the Easter term call for little comment. The ground is ill-adapted for either game and the interest is practically limited to the players themselves. The fixtures are inclined to be dull and moderate.”
the whole element of the assertion the HArrow football is a ‘dribbling’ game is made clear in this statement:
Several factors now began to affect the way Football was played. First, the drainage of the New Fields made the other grounds much drier too. Secondly, improved technology in ball manufacture had made it increasingly difficult to get the traditional leather ball. Harrow Football is essentially a dribbling game. When the ball can be kicked twenty or thirty yards, the character of the game changes. The combined effect has been a faster game but one that has departed from its roots and has found difficulty adapting.
Seems to me that Harrow Football -
A. was NOT formalised enough prior to 1863 to play a major evolutionary role in the development of the hybrid set of rules created in 1863 in London.
B. that Harrow football is quite distinct from all other football codes – and the entire nature of the game – via this element of dribbling rather than kicking would make the game about as close to soccer as bocce is to ten pin bowling.
Koala Bear said | May 7th 2008 @ 1:24pm | Report comment
~~~~~~~
KB