http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/04/21/afl-football-australia-is-not-enough/

Since the debating stopped on this thread, there have been 30 more posts. So that is an unofficial 446, but it looks like this location has been stumped.

Granted, the world is a very different place than it was 130 years ago. When Soccer and Rugby first expanded there was no football being played in the places they expanded to, so naturally they spread pretty quickly. The first “war of the codes” happened between 1870 and 1900 and soccer clearly won it. On an international scene now FIFA Football holds most of the territory. For a smaller code to go to war on FIFA would be like Taiwan going to war on China. So I don’t think it will happen anytime soon.

However, change does happen fast in today’s world with mass communications and market places increasingly open to change. So the tide could still change in some strategic places in the future. I think we can only speculate the next 20 to 30 years. 250 years from now, there will be completely different codes of football, one of them dominating the world, that probably does not even exist now.

As to the GAA being way ahead of the AFL in terms of international expansion. By “way ahead”, perhaps you mean that there are some advantages; i.e shape of ball and playing field. But I doubt you mean development of the game or league competitions when you say “way ahead”. There are far more AFL competitions around the world than Gaelic competitions.

Paul,

I’m in NSW, but have lived in Tas, and ACT as well. And have done a fair bit of traveling the rest of the east coast.
I was meaning international expansion of AFL. The expansion of football into NSW and QLD, restarted with the introduction of the Bears and Swans. Before that it was basically expat South Australians, Tasmanians etc who played/followed it.
I am still deciding how globalisation will help football and the AFL. It could be thought that people will realise what a great game it is and will start playing/following it in greater numbers around the world. Or it is possible that people cannot be bothered following such a small time sport, and will concentrate on less attractive sports with more attractive competition.

In my opinion, the fact the football, and Gaelic are the most popular sports in their respective countries stands as testament to how great the two sports are, and how much stronger they will be with international competition.

Side note: I think that Gaelic football is way ahead of football in terms of international expansion. It is a much simpler game, and is the only football code that will be able to challenge soccer for the title of World Game in the next 250 years.
“As for the future we will just have to wait and see”.

Ive been following the posts on this topic, but there are way too many to reply to.

I haven’t responded to your comments much in the past. Which state are you in?

I guess you have the perspective of someone from QLD or NSW. Certainly it is in the 21st century that Brisbane and Sydney have won their premierships, so although they existed since the 80s, I can see how their presence has only been felt in recent years. The 21st century is the age of pluralism and we will probably all have to get used to the fact that there are multiple football codes in all the big cities.

Red B,

I had wanted to get more of your opinion about hypothetical professionalism in the GAA. Why do some argue that it would kill the sport?

Michael C,

I have been reading Fagan’s perspective on 1858. I just thought I would come at it from all angles. He has some strong opinions, now for the counter arguments.

Expansion of football has startedm probably started 15 years ago. However the expansion of AFL has only really started 5 years ago and even then could probably not be said to be expansion, more that people are becoming more aware of other options.
By the way…..7.40pm tonight we will see how good football can be if played by more countries.

It is no longer listed in the hot topics, or as the most discussed…… ??

My conclusions:

All sports have a right to expand. Soccer has a right to expand in Australia, and AFL has a right to expand outside of Australia. No one is saying that AFL will become a professional sport anywhere outside of Australia in the forseeable future, but we do have hopes that the recruiting sphere has increased and hope to see players from numerous countries play in the AFL in the next 10-20 years.

Thanks for everyones comments.

Sorry we didn’t make it to 500 Midfielder, we would have, if it were not hidden from public view.

Also I spend a while reading it and it was kinda fun so as I said will pop back for a look at 500.

and you posted that for……what reason???

Dave —

Melbourne is the logical location – given that it’s the paddock outside the MCG (the carpark) where it all kicked off from. This whole week though is the 150 celebration week – in the VAFA we have a special thing that focuses on all current players at each club with over 150 VAFA games – get a special recognition (one of the reasons I’ve made sure I’m going around again this year) – - so, the fact that there’s only the one ‘big game’ this week is good as it allows the local leagues to more do their thing and benefit from a bit of extra attention.

Yeah half the team is injured. If fit, Dustin Fletcher would been playing for the Big V and Scott Lucas another big chance.

Midfielder,

Oh but you know you will get a reply.

Redb

This must an AFL thread ———- WHY ??????

Simple as;
* Is the biggest thread I have ever seen on this site.
* Even gives the rugger boys a run for their money on wordage in posts.
*Has dragged people from other codes in.

and the top reason is that is all hype and will never happen our lifetimes.

Love the passion guys and see if you can break the 500 mark

http://earinone.blogspot.com/2008/05/blog-post.html

The only point I am trying to make to Koala Bear is that it is wrong for him to keep coming up with his argument, “the burden of proof is on you”. This is not genuine debate. Dave and I may have had our pot shots at each other, but I think we have managed to find some common ground. He obviously has an open mind, and so therefore I will be relativistic enough for him to enjoy his Football. Koala Bear on the other hand has said the following:

1) The 1859 version of the Melbourne Rules are a myth. (By the way KB, Tom Wills was one of four that wrote the rules on behalf of the Melbourne Football Club). I have suggested that Koala Bear should go down to the MCC Museum and view the rules there. He claims that they must not exist because a PDF has never been posted on the internet. This is just not a solid argument. When I am back in Australia I will go down to the MCC and have a look for myself. But to demand that I prove it, is not entirely my responsibility. Koala Bear will stand upon his myth beliefs for ever and a day, because he does not want to believe.

2) He made the foolish mistake of saying that the burden of proof is on me to prove that the Chinese did not invent soccer-football, when every one else in this forum is quite happy that was just a bunch of posturing by Blatter. Perhaps that was a joke, at my expense Koala Bear, but how am I supposed to know when you are being serious or not, when you make those comments? I am actually interested in some serious debate. As I have said previously, I am open to the date being something other than 1858 or 1859, by doing my own research. You, however do not seem to be open minded at all.

3) As for me lacking a sense of humour, it’s probably true, Russians are usually a very non-humorous and serious bunch, and I’ve been living around them for some time now. There are American expats in the city I live in, but not a single Aussie, so I need a chance to let my hair down and lighten up. Them’s the breaks.

4) John, G’day. I’m a bit of a hobbyist historian with a lot to learn. Actually I really like Rugby Union, but find League a bit tedious. That’s kinda strange considering how much League people complain that Union is so much more boring. Probably proves I don’t understand both of them enough. Best of luck to both codes.

I did notice that little dig. Outdated tactics “the Scottish One”??? Never, its just he’s so far ahead the others don’t realise. One day our boys will start to learn Scottish and we’ll be able to play the system…don’t larf!!

Michael C

No doubt for the AFL public in Melbourne the game had to be held at the MCG. In trying to promote the game up north was there never any suggestion of playing another game at the SCG or Gabba to get them involved? What about celebrations in Adelaide and Perth? I’m suprised that the AFL couldn’t find an additional date for games to be played around the country and allow the other states to celebrate. As you say how this could be done? It seems that if it is truly the celebration of the Australian brand of football then all of the states should have some celebratory game? Could they have picked an east coast team (including Tassie) with the 3 states of Vic, SA and WA? 4 teams = 2 semis and one final? Any how that is from an outsider looking in. To find 2 dates in the calender for 150 yr celebration doesn’t seem over the top and would certainly be more inclusive of the others. Interested to see how many people would actually come from Perth, Adelaide etc to watch this game? As stated it will no doubt be a good game but looking from the outside it seems more could have been done. Enjoy the game.

Redb
No Essendon players???

The overseas leagues don’t muck around with the ‘internationals’ the beauty of the internet I guess in linking up. I notice also in the USA league with some 50 teams they travel extensively to play each other. Pletny of commitment for a bunch of amatuers.

It is no coincidence that the growth in the last ten years is in direct correlation to the high number of Aussie epxtas working overseas the internet.

Re 9s – well why not. I’m not a fan of the Rugby 7s, prefer the real stuff, would probably be much the same with the 9s in Aust footy. But if it gets more people playing a form fo the game overseas in particualr, then its all good.

Redb

2 things about the Finns – - the example that Denmark is far more important than just the DAFL itself

and

that if Rugby 7’s can be a Commonwealth Games sport – - then, there’s certainly nothing wrong with Aust Footy 9’s.

———————–

on the first point – - given that Swedish ‘AFL’ has evolved out of the Danish ‘AFL’ – the benefit of existing competitions is made obvious for the ability for new startup ‘outposts’ to grow quicker than otherwise would have. There is now a whole northern European community, Denmark, Sweden, Finland and Germany – - which link back then into the rest of Europe and Great Britain. The overall Euro foot print doesn’t look so bad then – - and, if the European ‘footprint’ is compared to the North American ‘footprint’ – you can start to appreciate the level of it all.

————————

2nd point – I have a friend who is over in Dubai now, he’s joined up with either the Heat or the Dingoes, not sure which one, and he played in the Dubai 9s tournament. He loved it, and the 9’s format works okay and is fun to play. The 9’s format is actually probably the most played ‘international’ version of Aust Footy – - and yet, I doubt there’d be a tournament in Australia – - – I’m thinking seriously about trying to run a D grade VAFA pre-season lightening premiership 9’s tournament – - I reckon it’d be cool if that could perhaps attract a ‘Euro’ team or a ‘US’ team or whatever.

Finland breaks International Cup ice

2:57 PM Fri 09 May, 2008

Captain-coach of the Finland Icebreakers Simon MacGregor sends one into the forward line

THE FORMATION of an Australian football league in Finland is a tale not unlike the story of the game’s conception itself by Tom Wills and his mates in a South Melbourne pub 150 years ago.

Take a bar in Finland, a few Aussie expatriates and the decision to go and have a kick of the footy in a local park.

The kick-to-kick quickly caught on and evolved into the formation of the Finnish national side, the Lions, in 2005. Three years later, Finland has fielded its first International Cup side, the Icebreakers.

While Australians are blessed with open space and can usually find a sports ground within a stone’s throw of any suburban block, Finland Australian Football League board member Fredrik Romar says the most challenging aspect of learning the game comes down to the fact that Finland doesn’t have ovals.

“I don’t know especially that it’s skills so much as just to be able to read the entire game, because we have no ovals at all,” Romar says.

“No-one has ever played an 18-a-side game so we have no idea what that will be like.

“We actually practice in a public park so we haven’t got any goalposts at all. We just use shoes or shirts or other footies as markers for goal kicking practice.”

The first time he showed up for training, Romar was told that if he knew the game was played with an oval ball, he knew more than most others.

“As much as we can, many of us follow the games on the internet but it’s very seldom that we actually get to see a game live,” he says.

But before dismissing the Icebreakers on the premise that they lack training facilities, resources, and their ability to even watch a game of Aussie Rules at the top level, consider the gusto with which they’ve attacked their newly-found love.

They’ve got the same competitive spirit as any group of Australians and, according to Romar, regularly mess about and give each other grief about how their respective AFL clubs are travelling in the AFL.

Then there’s the old rivalry with neighbouring Sweden, who they compete against each year in a series of “friendlies”.

“There’s the whole ice-hockey history between Sweden and Finland so I think it’s sort of a natural choice for us to have Sweden as a main rival,” Romar says.

“No one’s out to kill anyone, but we always want to win.”

And if the on-field spirit isn’t enough, the post-match celebrations would surely gain the approval of any sceptical Australian.

“We play hard but after the game we have a barbecue and have a few beers and so on,” Romar says.

Finland’s four-team league (a nine-a-side competition) begins its season mid-May with a clash between Helsinki and newly established club, Espoo. Most of the Icebreakers hail from Helsinki, and are likely to make up numbers for the new side.

How the Icebreakers will fare in Melbourne and Warrnambool later in the year is anyone’s guess. But they’ve played in the Central European Championships twice, winning both times, and finished sixth in the last EU Cup, a nine-a-side competition played in Europe.

If there’s one advantage of inexperience it’s that the Icebreakers keep improving every time they play.

“Every time we go onto the field it’s always better than the last time,” Romar says.

They bring hand-eye coordination from playing volleyball and basketball, and the running and zoning skills learned in soccer.

Combine that with an Aussie coach in expat Simon MacGregor, who has been with the team since December, and the Finns are sure to be throwing few shrimp on the barbie for some time yet.”

—————–

Note the combo of volleyball, basketball and soccer much like the Canadian kid. The International Cup is for nationals only, no expats allowed.

Redb

MC,

I’ll have to keep an eye for the lad in the coming draft.

Redb

~~~~~
KB

good to see young John James – the 18 yr old PNG kid most likely to be the first full international FOOTY player to be drafted – - playing for Zillmere over the Anzac Day weekend – - named 2nd best in the 56 pt win over Morningside – only kicked the one goal.

He’s now got 4 goals and been named in the best twice – in 5 rounds – - a good grounding, I think he’s missed a week or 2 as well with a little injury – - so, all signs are good on that front.

And with some parting advice; loosen up lad life is too short and you’ll just have to get use to me being here on the ROAR as I enjoy a bit of banter. As some of us old farts like to do time to time ie to mess around with the young minds .. It keeps us feeling young …. As Michael C and Redb well know and Norm … Thanks Norm the jobs yours, just need confirmation of your pension card…

Cheers Paul.. btw I’m second generation of Greek heritage.. retired on the Gold Coast Queensland, so if you can’t send the airfare, well I’ll take it that you have conceded that the letter is a myth .. ( try and get a PDF file up on an Aussie Rules website.)

~~~~~~
KB

btw – how do explain away Dave who is having a reasoned on both ways interesting discussion here – - either join in at his level – with something to contribute – and a healthy recognition of the right to differing views – - -

or, ……well, you seem not to care about what others think so just carry on being one foot short of a leg! (see, I’ve got a sense of humour!!)

prior to coming over

http://www.australianrulesfootball.com.au/pages/Articles/op/extended/article/4

note below, Dave Emblem and the Ice Hockey connection….(and, alternately, Flemings sporting CV, no real mention of Ice Hockey)

http://www.sportingpulse.com/assoc_page.cgi?c=1-4711-0-0-0&sID=56333&articleID=5150249&news_task=DETAIL

played first (‘practice’?) match

http://afl.com.au/tabid/208/default.aspx?newsid=57621

Its Ok, KB sometimes dips into the gum leaf gin with a drop of vegemite for a sweetener Beside he’s not a marsupial just a very naughty boy/cranky ol’ barstud.

MC,

Agree with the possbility of Gaelic footy going professional or not, that it was I meant could go either way, either they accept the AFL will continue to take the best or go professional in the hope that the best players stay at home. Could be a combination of both.

Redb

Koala Bear, if you can’t be bothered funding your own quest for truth, then you are not serious. As I said previously, until you have an open mind, I can’t be bothered debating with you any more. Please go back to the soccer forums, you’re presence is getting tiring here.

Finally, a koala is a marsupial not a bear. Every good Aussie should know this.

I must say I can understand their confusion with the American style Big V taken from an American university V adoption and the name Dream Team being an invented name for the national American Basket Ball team to represent America in the Olympics..

I told them that the Victorians have a history of steeling the good ideas that are the inventions from other codes in Europe with Tom Willis trying to claim the name Football from the 14th century Harrow University and now with the current Aussie Rules generation tying to Americanise their Code — devaluating all of the good work that was achieved by Melb Victory FC throughout Asia with its first failed attempt to win the covered ACL championship with amazing dedication for mediocrity (Dave just joking) … Of course you can only lay the blame for that failure with the “Scottish One” with his outdated tactics.. Better Luck Next Time Lards… SFC the first Aussie team that will win the converted FIFA world Club Championship.. Soon I hope well before I die..

Paul,
Where is you sense of humour ? .. Its a not serious debating forum, I am only having a bit of fun..

If it is not possible to scan the Tom Wills document up onto an Aussie Rules web site for all to see. Then certainly I shall go down to Melbourne to see it for myself i.e. the hand written document in question with the hand written rules by Tom Wills.

Please forward a round trip Airline ticket from Coolangatta to Melbourne for me. Addressed to Koala Bear C/- Currumbin RSL Gold Coast Queensland.

The Chinese debate..
To tell you the truth I have not even considered the claim tho I have no reason to doubt the Chinese for making it. It may be that it is just as valid as your claim that our indigenous brothers lay claim to the roots of Aussie Rules. I first here that claim made by Michael Long, but where is the evidence..? I would say our indigenous brothers were more concern with dogging the white farmers’ buckshot than kicking a dead possum around at the risk of being shot.

Or hunting for food and water to drink.. But if you believe it to be so then you have to prove that the Chinese claim is a false one.. I certainly have no reason to doubt their claim.. Why should you ?

Further more, if we are talking about cheap shots; isn’t your thesis a cheap shot at Football and I mean Football..

~~~~~~
KB