that was a pretty good game although spoilt a tad by the injury toll of Freo,

the irony is Essendon has this year managed to better lead the way with a free flowing attacking game style (despite injuries to key players) and have been providing a regular highlights reel of speccies. The irony is that they came up against Geelong on Sunday – and many of us thought it might be a real ripper worth watching…….it was, but, not for the flair of the bombers, nor the closeness of scores……but, rather, the sheer brilliance of Geelong to step up when confronted and bury their opposition.

If you haven’t found enjoyment watching Geelong over the last 2-3 years playing almost perfect footy (and playing on at almost every opportunity rather than that chipping stuff) – - then, you’re setting impossible standards. Or – - you might be like my mum, who just hates Geelong………never liked them, and the 94 prelim just confirmed it!!!

I remembered this posting I made last year whilst watching Fremantle v Richmond on Saturday night.

I think it is appropriate that I follow up with some further observations about AFL.

I consider 2008 to have been the best season of AFL since 1993 insofar as aesthetic’s is concerned. I am not 100% certain why this occured but there is no doubt in my mind that Adrian Anderson (the Operations Manager) must take a large share of the kudo’s. If I remember rightly, he was on record as trying to rid the game of pack’s and he has managed that brillantly.

This year the football has been of a slightly lesser quality but that is primarliy because the defensive minded St Kilda (under the Sydney Swan taught Lyon!) has replaced the Aboriginal inspired Hawthorn as Geelong’s main challenger.

But the return of the Speccy has nearly made up for the slightly less entertaining football offered this year.

May I suggest that the ever increasing representation of the sublimely talented Aboriginal players has permeated the style of football being played?

Anyway, AFL has won me back to some extent.

I bet he’s a Richmond supporter (the Crikey author).

btw – -All codes of football dish up really good games and average games, many close results have ONLY that going for them and often the most intriguing match is watching one side play ‘perfect’ football to demolish another side that are no mugs themselves.

certainly true to a degree –

however, if there’s an interstate Prelim final, as there was last year – then, the ONLY opportunity for AFL and MCC members to attend was the Geel vs Coll prelim last year to which they drew a ripper crowd of 98,002 which was 700 more than the GF.

This year, there were 2 MCG prelim finals, and each drew 70,000 plus – - so, yep, each one individually compared to a 98K final last year is a drop…………but, is that a fair comparison as well?

AFL TV ratings will tend to be better if there’s a strong 2 market interest. In Victoria, it’ll generally be pretty robust – but, nationally, if an Adelaide, or Perth, or Sydney or Brisbane is included, then – all the better – - and, when there’s a prelim final weekend with – for example, – 2005, with St.Kilda, Adelaide, West Coast and Sydney – - that was a 4 state Prelim final weekend . . . . so, that was perfect for the TV ratings and market foot print perspective.

It’s all the nature of the swings and round abouts of sports coverage. So – - yep, it’s pretty hard to compare directly.

And more often that not, it is superceded by the ‘inferior’ game of League. And this years finals series is another good example of this.

Again, lets see what the Grand Final dishes up. it better be good.

As for Crikey, the article has many flaws, but the point is, the guy doesn’t like his own game anymore!!

Anyway l would watch a good game of AFL over a good game of NRL, finals or no finals. However you are a little mischievious in the use of finals attendances as comparison. As we know total attendances at finals will depend a lot on who is involved rather than an indicator of level of interest. In AFL last year there were more interstate finals at smaller venues so of course this years attendances involving more Victorian teams playing more local derbies at the biggest ground is going to draw a bigger total attendance. However another indicator you dont mention are the TV ratings which will show a drop for the AFL from last year because most of the teams are from Vic and so less interest elsewhere.

a footnote -

this seasons NRL week 1 finals attendance of 71,015 – - is their worst ever from 1999 with the final 8 system in play. Also the first time in which they’ve failed to crack 20,000 in at least one of the week 1 finals matches.

………..so much for staying ‘true’ to the fans.

Let me suggest that Manly 38 vs St George 6 was a blow out.

Let me suggest that Cronulla 36 to Canberra 10 was a blow out.

Let me suggest that NZ 30 to Roosters 13 was a blow out,

really, the only 2 close games happen to have involved Melbourne Storm – - – and they are a direct consequence of the injustices of the McIntyre Final 8 system.

as a neutral observor………….a few of those games were a yawn – - – and, as a North supporter, against the Swans, at 3 qtr time we were down by 14 pts, and kicked the first 3 behinds of the match – - – I’m still dirty that in that period of play we hadn’t brought the game right back to life – - – but, from that point on, I’m much, much happier we got done by 6 goals than just 6 points!!!! Much happier.

Every finals series needs an inspiring underdog story, something for the unattached to latch on to, and the Kiwis have provided the NRL with one, in spades. Shame the same can’t be said about the AFL where the top four sides routinely filled the four preliminary final berths.

This is proof that you simply can’t win. The NRL ‘underdog’ story is a direct function of the old McIntyre Final 8 system. The fact it occurred has been derided by many NRL supporters. THe fact that Storm then lost home privilages and had to travel up to Brisbane was seen as a further flaw in the system. All the talk of rewarding mediocrity was illustrated by this ‘underdog’ story.
Where as the AFL final 8 has appropriately rewarded the Top 4 teams and along the way, illustrated that we DO end up with the 2 best teams in the Grand FInal………………..obviously a flawed system that needs changing!?!!?!?

Certainly, NRL has stayed truer to its fans. There are standing-room sections at its grounds and, unless I’m way off beam, I doubt sushi is served at Mt Smart or Parramatta Stadiums.

Interesting – - what’s staying truer to the fans? The NRL first 2 weeks have attracted 147,000 fans – - – to small venues – - and also only 18K to SFS, a 50K sell out at Suncorp. Standing room is a function of suburban grounds. The AFL – - has stayed true to it’s fans by allowing as many as desire to get to the finals matches – - held at the MCG where there is limited standing room these days – - but seating for nearly 100,000. And, the AFL has for the only time I can see since 1996 – has attracted over 70,000 people to 5 of the 8 finals matches played.
Staying ‘true’ to the fans – - that’s an interesting one. Paying a finals premium to attend at a cramped old suburban venue with limited facilities, or, paying a finals premium to attend at the effectively brand new MCG – - – that, whilst perhaps sushi might be available somewhere, also has a KFC, and chips and pies and yeah, it all costs too much and yeah the tickets could be cheaper and yeah it’s a depressed financial ‘climate’ at present.

…………but, when the NRL four crowds of less than 20,000 from 6 finals matches thus far……………..really, who is staying ‘truer’ to their fans????

Why would any neutral fan in their right mind even think about watching Adelaide v St Kilda on the telly?
Actually, they never played each other.

they like to play the game by attacking and moving forwards, not backwards and laterally like three of their fellow-finalists.

Funny, Rugby League is played almost entirely by moving laterally and backwards to move forwards…………I wonder if our author has recognised that there’s actually strategy at play when this happens…………something perhaps he needs to observe in soccer to appreciate. If the author comes from a school of thought that thinks ‘switching the play’ is changing channels from Channel 10 to Foxtel on a Saturday night – - then, he’s a pretty dumbrrrr’s'd footy follower.

in summary

what often happens is people develop a grass is greener mentality – - but, often the realisation is that on the other side of the fence there’s a whole array of issues, injustices, head office myopathy and antipathy etc etc……………………and how and why the NRL have cracked down on Cam Smith and the supposed ‘grapple tackle’ the week before a prelim final………….just rediculous……………….Storm should take a leaf out of the Swans book circa 1996 and Andrew Dunkley.

What? Are we only talking ‘finals series’??

WHo do you support?

Most people are only genuinely excited during finals time when following their own team. The rest, yeah, hope for a good game, a good contest, some good individual acts of courage, skill and daring.

Does a 2 point NRL margin stand better than a 3 goal AFL margin? Perhaps. That’s just a function of the score difference at the ‘bell’. Was last years finals series for AFL any better purely because of the Geel v Coll Prelim ‘classic’? Or, will we wait to compare last years ‘blow out’ GF vs whatever we get tomorrow?

Ultimately, and this is something that all people need to understand when following AFL – - it’s an attacking and scoring game – - the fact that Geel vs Haw tomorrow could dish up anything, from a 100 point walloping to a 1 pt nail biter……..it’s that range of possibilities that puts such greater value on a close finish at the end…………but, the means to the ends should hopefully be that the best team on the day wins…………not a lottery…………such as a soccer penalty shoot out (but, again, if you want to compare frustrating tension……….then the soccer penalty shoot out wins every time).

Redb

I can’t really enter the debate because I’d be lucky to have watched more than 30 minutes of league all season – but I do occasionally enjoy the highlights.

What was the question again?

But since it was onyl going to be an extension of my previous article, thought I would limit myself to some comments o nthe discussion thread.

Firstly, and how ironic is this, I beleive AFL football this year to have been the best since 1993! The games itself has rid itself of many of the packs and the scoring rate has risen. For this I commend Adrian Anderson for inisisting that the umpires penalise players sitting on the ball!!

Of course, I am still apprehensive about the the long term trends and the final series to date has not been the greatest. However, it would be redeemed if Geelogn and Hawthron put on a good show, and the chaces are that they will.

But, as much as AFL has improved this year, it does not hold a candle to the excitement that the NRL final series has delivered.

And Crikey.com itself has come around to my thinking as well.. Thy have published an article by their AFL supporting sportswriter, Charles Happell, that mirrors what I wrote back in March this year.

http://www.crikey.com.au/Media-Arts-and-Sports/20080925-Happell-Why-we-need-a-classic-AFL-Grand-Final-and-your-chance-to-win-a-Crikey-sub.html

I await the AFL pushers to respond, but what I have written cannot be refuted.

Savvas

btw – the VRU hall of fame lists about 13 guys prior to 1940 as Aust Test reps (or would’ve had not the 1939 tour been cancelled).

In fact – the ‘representation’ out of Victoria only really dries up over the last 40 years.

It’s League that Crosscoder is stating has little real history – which is quite true – but Union – oh, there’s always been a bit of that floating around – how else did Ewen McKenzie come through the system anyway??? You kind of defeat your argument by using him.

The VRU has a specific Pacific Island Program – regionally, RU exists in some cases due to army towns and or NSW/Vic border towns –
Ballarat University RUC
Bendigo RUC
Border Army RUC
Cobram RUFC
Deniliquin RUC
Echuca Moama RUC
Puckapunyal RUC
Shepparton RUC
Warrnambool RUC

sadly, the Sale team isn’t listed – and that’s no doubt due to the reduction in the East Sale RAAF base – they used to have a pretty good side there. Obviously it never really caught on with the local community.

Anyway – good luck to them – - in times of water restrictions and very hard dry grounds – a bit like 150 years ago – I’m not too sure I’d be wanting to play Rugby in Victoria – which will always count against it.

okay, a look at the ARU site -

Matt Dunning 182 cm and 115 kgs ( correct, not really sustainable in AFL – - now, if that is his natural build, so be it, he may struggle at elite level AFL…..- his BMI is also registering him as obese – - which reminds me of the brother of an ex-girlfriend who was a high level power lifter – who, when trying to join the police force – his BMI was saying he was obese…….hardly – - but, again, not the ideal body conditioning to play top level AFL either)

Certainly RU has guys who could probably step into any code – body size wise – such as :
L.Tuqiri 191cm/103kg
S.Larkham 189-88, C.Latham 190-100, and S.Mortlock 191-100. Perhaps the 100kg guys in AFL might have a playing weight down a fraction – but, again, depends on other factors.
THe little guys – Gregan 173-79, Giteau 178-85, Cordingley 178-87 – - yep, no issues there.

but, back to the Hookers etc:
George Smith 180 cm & 103 kgs, on the heavy side, and Sheperdson 186 cm and 117 kgs – - again, on the Dunning heavy side.
Now – Smith – who knows, a lesser emphasis on weights and building up pure leg strength vs greater running endurance and sprint work and he might be a good nuggety ruck rover running around at about 90-95 kgs.

I really don’t see where you’re coming from other than suggesting that the Sheperdson and Dunning build is something they’re born with – - they’re the only fellows I see you argument holding for – but, again, if Sheperdson could present himself nearer the 100kg mark, then Josh Hunt at 186 cm and 100kgs is perhaps the ‘mould’ of player you might be looking at. Even Glenn Archer at the end was 182 cm and playing around 91 kgs (although, to last, he used his skill and athleticism ahead of just being a battering ram – you get too old to use your body that way.)…..Sav Rocca – you’d have loved him at 195 cm and 112 kgs! Surely??

Don’t ever under estimate that the best AFL teams – during their ‘power’ eras – are physically more superior to their opposition. The Eagles early mid 90s had the perfect mix of bulk, power, speed, skill etc – and against other teams at earlier stages of list development – it was like men against boys. North mid/late 90s were the same, the Ess, then Brisbane, now Geelong. There’s still tremendous advantage to be got from being strong enough to be able to absorb tackles and hits – and obviously to dish it out.

try a bit harder mate. You’re wheels are spinning.

It’s called sports specific conditioning – i.e. the capacity for the average player to play carrying extra weight and still cover the territory etc.

However – for your benefit (and this is actually a worth while exercise)

A sample from Melb Storm (being the champion team)
Greg Inglis – a 21 yr old sensation (would be a very good AFL player) – - 195 cm and 99 Kgs.

compared to Hawthorns Lance Franklin, also 21 yr old sensation – 196 cm and 87 kgs.

Israel Folau – just turned 19 – and rising star of the game, 195 cm and 103 kgs – - you might be suggesting that he wouldn’t fit into the AFL mould…..

compar to

TOm Hawkins at Geelong, turns 20 late July – 197 cm and 105 kgs – - a 20 kg increase on Lance Franklin – - ask anyone at present who will be the better of the two – - I’m not sure that anyone could split them.

IN the main though, the 100kg + players are ruckmen, although, Jonathan Brown is also 195cm and 102kgs – very similar to Israel. However, should Brown be playing Rugby, do you want to suggest that he wouldn’t be running around at about 110kgs??

I look at Ryan Hoffman, 193 cm and 104 kgs as well.

Now – look at a Cooper Cronk – 178 cm and 88 kgs, then to Geelong, one of the top 10 players in the comp Paul Chapman, 179 cm and 88 kgs.
Dallas Johnson, 183 cm and 92 kgs, compared to say Gary Ablett Jnr 182 cm and 85 kgs.
Then at Geelong we have John Hunt who is 186 cm and 100 kgs……go figure, there’s a wide variety.

It takes different types – body type doesn’t come in to the equation nearly as much as the motor (both physical and mental) that drives that body.

A Ewan McKenzie body type – with sufficient ability – would carve out a role – - you see, AFL is quite so defined as Rugby (either code) – regarding positions – - so, it might actually be easier to carve out a niche based on your own particular attributes.

Sure Hall could build his body into a rugby shape, but what happens to the blokes in Melbourne that are born like McKenzie, Roach & Webcke? Do they somehow transform themselves into an AFL physique? Tell us all how this metamorphisis happens.

Well the ignorance of your comments is just enormous. The AFl has the benefit of offering a range of body types, from talls to smalls – the difference is that in AFL speed and agility are more prized than brute strength – anyone cant build themselves up if that is required in the game. Would you believe that Barry hall or Jonathon brown could build themselves into rugby league physics? could do it easily, but realise they need to be agile to play the Australian game.

Pfffffftt.

that you and other RL types have such ignorance to suggest this is staggering.

Redb

p.s. In Victoria, the talent drain from other sports such as cricket, basketball to AFL is huge but you wouldn’t know this becuase your just ignorant.

I’d like to ask the AFL devotees here what happens to the teenage boys in Victoria, SA, WA & Tassie who have the physique in the mould of Steve Roach, Arthur Beetson, Petero Civoniceva, Ewen McKenzie and Shane Webcke?

Does the all-Australian game cater for every body shape or size, or (as it seems) are teenagers with the Ewen McKenzie body shape simply cast aside to the scrapheap? McKenzie was born in Melbourne, and attended Scotch College.

There must be thousands of McKenzie type young blokes in Victoria and the other AR states who currently have no hope of playing AFL, but have a body shape suited to the rugby codes, and therefore a potential professional sporting career if they take up rugby league or union.

The teenage footballers the AFL is hoping to attract in NSW & QLD are already playing football, which makes them harder to convert to AR instead of their current code. In Vic, Tas, SA & WA there must be thousands of teenagers not playing any code, and all they need is a bit of encouragement to take up a rugby code.

As Crosscoder points out, the rugby codes are very recent starters in these states, and it seems to me the greater growth potential in expansion states is for the rugby codes, than for AR.

But, no doubt, the AFL posters here will now explain to us all why what I have speculated is complete rubbish. I would ask them to identify for us one current AFL player with the body shape of Ewen McKenzie.

You see, on close examination Australian rules is not really a game for all Australians after all. It is only a game for those that are a tall bean pole shape. Rugby is a game for Australians of all shapes and sizes.

4) It may well impact on the AFL,s next contract,shock horror.There have been people within the media industry,who stated both ch 7/10 paid over the odd for the current contract.The fact that the FTA ratings for AFL in NSW the largest state and Qld 3rd largest have been abysmal recently are hardly helping AFL’s cause.Even articles in the Courier Mail noted the poor TV ratings for the Lions and the Swans. The great leader Andrew may be a tad optimistic claiming a $200m per year new deal ,when rugby league is the major subscription driver for Fox and the major winter code on FTA in NSW and Qld.
5) Should the Perth rugby league team come in in 2012,the NRL contract will certainly not remain the same.
Buckley hit the nail on the head,too far way ATM.
The FTA stations need a major sport,should one get the AFL for winter viewing,you think either 7 or 10 or 9 will pay peanuts for the major winter code in NSW/Qld.Foz are aware of the popularity of rugby league.
BTW the unprecedented $780m,was a result of a Kerry Packer forcing the price up to a level,that the others would have to pay over the odds.That is the word in TV land.There is no K Packer around to assist pity .Does that Victorian Mitchell say anywhere that the NRL rights will be reduced,remain the same ,increase.,only that it may well be surpassed who knows?He hasn’t a flipping clue as to the lie of the land in 5 years.Does he know what the SOO will be worth,does he have an idea of what tests would be worth or grand finals ?
You are the same bloke,who said he has no time for these rags.You just gotta laugh,when he refers to them.

THE battle of Australia’s football codes is not confined to western Sydney, with soccer’s TV rights tipped to rival AFL when a new deal is nutted out in 2013.

Leading media buyer and analyst Harold Mitchell claims soccer could surpass the NRL’s $500 million deal and rub shoulders with the AFL.

Mitchell, the man who advised the AFL when they signed the unprecedented $780 million TV deal, predicted that Football Federation Australia’s bargaining power would top the $100 million-a-year mark by the time the rights are up for renewal.

“The soccer rights should be a $100 million-a-year sport by 2013,” Mitchell said. “It could be equal to the AFL by then if it is properly presented.

“No doubt it could surpass the NRL. The reason is it can grow into all the states, southern and western. Where the NRL is very strong in NSW and Queensland, soccer can grow into new areas more easily and readily. Also what’s developing is that mums want their kids to play soccer.

“They don’t like thuggery, so it’s perfectly positioned as a family sport. It’s minimal contact, it’s of high appeal and it is a fast-moving game for TV, plus it’s short.”

His argument is supported by the Professional Footballers Association, whose research indicates that the soccer rights – A-League and Socceroos packaged together – would eventually surpass NRL.

PFA chief executive Brendan Schwab – a former vice-president of AFL club Richmond – believes if A-League teams are introduced in western Sydney, Melbourne and the Gold Coast before the next deal, the TV rights would be lucrative.

“The question is when, not if,” Schwab said in reference to surpassing the NRL’s TV rights.

“We may not be No. 1, but the key is being the No. 2 sport in every Australian market.

“The Socceroos can be the No. 1 national team in Australia, with a regular audience of one million and up to 3.5 million for big games.

“Packaged together, these media rights can provide a commercial platform that will sit only behind the AFL in the medium to long term.”

Soccer’s current seven-year, $130 million deal with Fox Sports was lucrative at the time it was signed – after just one A-League season.

But it was also signed on the eve of the 2006 World Cup and Mitchell said the rights even now would be worth considerably more.

In soccer’s favour is that the FFA chief executive Ben Buckley was the man who brokered the AFL’s unprecedented five-year, $780 million deal, which remains unsurpassed.

Buckley refused to comment yesterday, citing the expiration date too far away to speculate.”

——————-

Even Sydney’s own rag reckons the Nrl aren’t national and will suffer on next the Tv rights deal. hate being right all the time

South Australia
.
.
.
Western Australia
.
.
.
.
Tasmania
.
.
.
.
national rugby league – yeah right its a long way from that and has barely grown outside its traditional home.

Redb

Yep, on outcome the AFL probably stayed a ’3′, had Melb and Haw merged, the atmosphere may have pushed 5, (with local ‘hotspots’ of course!!).

You said:
“Does it really matter where the Storm get their players,be it from union ranks,junior ranks in Vic or from rl players in other states.Rugby league has little infrastructure ATM in Victoria,although they do have an academy at Bayside spelling ?.”

Good question.

Does it matter how many British players are playing in the EPL top division? To some it does.

Does it matter how many NSW players play for the Swans? To some it does – including those who decide that we shouldn’t count players from Wagga, Albury, Broken Hill, WEntworth etc because they aren’t really NSW….

Will it matter how many NSW players play in the new West Sydney team?

From the AFL perspective with player drafts etc, the fact that there are 30 NSW and 40-50 QLD boys spread over the country – should it matter where they play? That’s what SoO is for.

However, from the NRL perspective – it’s not so much the number of Vic in the Storm – more so – the number in the entire NRL. Even the Swans lobbed in Sydney with at very least Dennis Carroll from Albury…..(minor point – and more a technicality, and, perhaps the Storm might find a Wodonga kid to promote….).

“So much for the oft quoted no Vics in the NRL/Toyota Cup.”

I don’t think the ‘Toyota Cup’ – all 5 wks of it – is really part of that ‘oft quoted’ quote. And, for now, the point still applies – - otherwise, we’d point to all the Sydney rookies the Swans have listed over the journey. (btw – there are some who reckon Kieran Jack is a token – - but, when a commentator like Robert Walls says he ‘likes him’, for his hardness – young Jack is no token Sydney son of RL legend – - he’s actually there because he goes hard.)

——————–

And for everybody else :

“NATIONAL” – -

I will suggest that in each code they can claim there ‘most national’ top level elite competition as the ‘national’ (elite) league. In essence, the spread doesn’t really matter – and, you could concievably have the national competition in a single state/city – - if that’s where the best facilities are for example.

How truely representative a national league is of the nation – - that’s another story. Is that worth squabbling over? If you do, then it leads to:

—– it’s like a player making the Wallabies – he competes perhaps – for his position with at most realistically 3 other players in the Australian Super 14 context – - and is repesentative of how wide and deep a player pool?

—– Is his selection to be celebrated any more than the full forward or ruck man for the Big V in the AFL who perhaps got selected ahead of 6 or 8 or 10 candidates out of 16 clubs? (just using that as an example as many people don’t even care about the All Australian AFL team – - however, sub NRL for AFL and is the 5/8th for Australia in the NRL to be celebrated greater than the Tight loose half head propped up ex-hooker for the Wallabies??

But – we don’t worry too much about that – - – or do we? It’s a bit like saying that getting picked for NSW in the cricket is half the job done to getting the baggy green – whereas, from other states, the associated value of state selection is far less. And perhaps the National selectors MUST have that perspective.

[the sheffield shield is a good advertisement for the need for a 'club' based national comp with a draft or something, to better spread and dilute the talent more evenly - - and, actually, the IPL will be very, very interesting to follow from similar to that perspective - in a sense, real 'club' cricket in a similar way to the EPL for soccer.]

Does the National Football League have a team every state of the USA?

south australia
.
.
.
..
.
Western Australia
.
..
.
.
Tasmania
.
..
..
.
.
oops must be a mistake – national? LOL

Redb