Melbourne Victory: already the 8th biggest club in Melbourne

Joe FC said  | April 13th 2008 @ 9:57am | Report comment

Dave
No doubt the Victory have done very well in their short time although from a statistical perspective its not too hard to look good when you’re starting from zero ( but that should not take away from their impressive performance ). Aussie rules will always be the dominant code in Melbourne but football can continue to grow - though at a much slower rate than the first 3 years. The question of a 2nd HAL team in Melb has been much discussed on Roar - it seems inevitable but as to how that will impact on the Victory remains to be seen.

Joe FC said  | April 13th 2008 @ 11:20am | Report comment

Dave
You mount a compelling case & I’m certainly not going to dispute it - all teams of all codes need their fierce rivals.

The Substitute said  | April 13th 2008 @ 12:23pm | Report comment

I have heard several AFL club presidents say that there are two teams too many in Melbourne. Go and compare the teams per capita of Perth and Adelaide (both AFL cities in their own right) with Melbourne and those claims will be backed up.

But no team is willing to relocate or merge. With west Sydney and the Gold Coast being taken by new teams, these clubs may have missed their chance. I guess Tasmania is always waiting in the wings…

As for the A-League, I hope the FFA pays as much attention to winning over Melbourne than they are to Sydney. Dave, you have pointed out the damage one team has done to the AFL, what would three teams do? The formula for winning over Melbourne is simple: a south-east Melbourne-based team to cover the eastern suburbs all the way to Gippsland, a Geelong-based team to cover Geelong and the western suburbs and then Victory can claim all the suburbs in between and maybe even all the way to Bendigo. (Not forgetting all their existing support).

I think a second Melbourne team would need to better engage with former NSL clubs like South Melbourne and Melbourne Knights, because their fans (like those who don’t like the coach/ground/style) are avoiding the Victory. Although it is a fine line because of all the history behind those clubs.

Dave said  | April 13th 2008 @ 5:19pm | Report comment

Midfielder/Substitute
I don’t know enough about Wollongong to comment on the readiness for HAL. Have they aground that can hold 20-25,000 and is there any prospect of that size attendance, or at least an ave of 15-18,000?
Agreed 2nd teams in Syd and Melb a must within 2-3 yrs. What about playing 2nd Syd games at ANZ for trial with top tiers closed off? Could they possibly engage 25-30,000 people to come? Need to be very distinct from SFC to set up rivalry but not ethnic base.
My gut feelings are that followers of some of the former NSL sides in Melb are waiting to follow new team. Hope that it also doesn’t divide along ethnic lines. Must be seen to be cleanskins running the club with some football expertise in the background to support. Maybe that is one reason to have them based out in the burbs, east or west.
GC is a shoe in, with stadium already in place, for next season.

The vibes out of Nth Queensland are not good at the moment. Hope the parties can get together to sort it out otherwise boot them for now.
More investigation needs to be done in Tassie but if they are given a chance the whole population would get behind it. Facilities and sponsorships are the key issues there and HAL probably needs to be on very firm ground before taking the risk.
Melb and Syd desperately need the 2nd youth teams to satisfy huge numbers of Juniors into Youth/Seniors. May help stem some of the flow OS. Hundreds of thousands of players coming through with 11-12 positions in each city? Players will keep going in the sysytem if they have a realistic chance of making the grade. The youth teams could spread their games around the state but not sure if they would draw any crowds.
Who then to come in with GC next season? It is looking problematic.
In 10 years would like;
2 x Melb
1 x Geelong
2 x Syd
1 x Adel
1 x Perth
1 x CC
1 x New
1 x GC
1 x Bris
1 x Nth Queens
2 x either Woll, Canb, Tassie, 2nd team NZ
We need a comp that can sustain 12-14 teams with ave crowds of 20,000plus playing in stadiums they have rights to eg catering, advertising etc

The Substitute said  | April 13th 2008 @ 6:18pm | Report comment

Dave,
WIN Stadium in Wollongong has a 20,000-seat capacity although I wouldn’t call it the most modern stadium in the world. Your ten year prediction seems spot on btw.

Redb said  | April 13th 2008 @ 7:31pm | Report comment

Dave,

No worries i know that was not your point, but Substitutes.

I’m fairly pragmatic and its easy when your team is Essendon I know, but I’ve always felt that 9 Melb teams is too many for the comp. i think your timeline is about right, North Melb at 8-10 years, Melb perhaps 5 - 8 years. The AFL has done extremely well to keep a presence for the Swans and Lions even after much early pain, by the time each was playing Grand Finals there was enough connection for old Fitzroy fans to enjoy the Bris Lions wins and South supporters the Swans - the bloods. That may not be possible in the future. The size of the AFL comp with $6m salary caps,etc makes it hard for the smaller clubs to compete, they will either go back to the VFL, merge or relocate.

Re Melb Victory, I sense a poor on field performance in HAL 4 will probably see a level off membership and crowds. already happened in HAL 3. It is no doubt a sustainable and healthy level with 20,000 members.

cheers
Redb

Dave said  | April 13th 2008 @ 7:53pm | Report comment

Midfielder

I have a concern about HAL having too many regional teams and teams not located where the masses are. Certainly the CC and Jets have done well so far, having put in the hard yards no doubt. Do you think there is a danger of having too many teams from smaller regional areas in too early. GC ok, then has to be Melb and Syd 2nd teams. This covers a huge population areas and allows rivalries to develop whilst HAL is going strong. Wollongong strategically placed but is the support there? Same with NQ?

Dave said  | April 13th 2008 @ 8:30pm | Report comment

Midfielder
Thanks
At this stage have no concerns re GC as they seem well advanced, modern stadium etc. They just need the right blend of some local talent plus one or two big names to get going. However I have noticed the Titans crowds have dropped since the first game sell out.
Know little about Wollongong and its football culture. The population is certainly there or thereabouts but will they support a team in good enough numbers, sponsorships etc? Don’t recall their NSL team being particularly well supported? I know even less about NQ and its football culture. At least they have a decent stadium from what l can see on TV.
Also have we idismissed 2nd teams in Perth and Adelaide to readily? Know the problems with Glory but in the good ol days, 43,000 at the GF! Maybe 13th & 14th teams in 5 or more years could come from one or both of these cities? Would mean HAL games each week in cities of 1million plus.

Dave said  | April 13th 2008 @ 9:47pm | Report comment

Sheek

Within 15 years l think 14 is possible. that would be almost a doubling of the current strain on talent pool, spectator numbers, sponsorship, advertising etc Beyond that who knows… There is definitely talent in this country but the competition so great between codes for the best youngsters.FFA are taking the right course by investing in coaching and youth pathways…whether football will get enough of the best youngsters remains to be seen. At least there is the overseas option, hopefully some Asian, Middle Eastern and African stars to go with the Europeans, Aussies and Sth Americans!
At this stage cannot see another Bris team, as GC will be in next year. FFA already burnt once with NZ Knights so would be very wary of 2nd team (l personally wouldn’t rule it out after new Aus teams have settled in). It took VFL/AFL almost 100 years to expand from 12 and they lost 2 in the process, so FFA, with ex AFL man in charge, wont be rushed.
However the 1st major test for FFA in the expansion stakes is that apart from GC there doesn’t appear to be a standout club/consortium ready to come in next year to keep the even number of teams.

Redb said  | April 14th 2008 @ 7:57am | Report comment

Midfielder,

I’m not sure why you believe the AFL won’t get $1 billion for the next TV rights. The revelance of the A League to AFL in terms is TV rights is marginal, for one it is a different season altogether. I find it interesting that soccer followers constantly live in this direct consequence universe with regards to TV exposure against other football codes, particularly the AFL. If soccer grows and get its own FTA contract fine, but what makes you think it will be due to the AFL’s decline.

I realise the country has only 21 million people, so many sponsors,etc,etc But I guess my main point is the assumption that people who currently follow the AFL will just drop the sport and take up watching soccer exclusively as the A League expands, I find this both arrogant and myopic at the same time.

There has long been a void of quality domestic soccer in this country and the A League is filling that void.

Redb

Midfielder said  | April 14th 2008 @ 11:12am | Report comment

Redb

All things are relative if AFL received 1 billion and say NRL received 600 million, that would imply that for every 6 people that watch league on FTA the AFL can get 10. On figures I have read if anything on a Australia wide count the NRL out rates the AFL on FTA.

Football has never had any FTA but in the next round of talks when the NRL & AFL sit down to discuss for the first time ever will be sitting in the corner a 12 team comp, Asian and international links and much cheaper than either the NRL or AFL.

Given that both 7 & 9 now have overseas ownership it will be a different, and further the NRL will have climbed back on its feet from the mauling it took from the SLW and will offer any partner on selling rights to both NZ & PNG. The NRL own PNG and while other codes can be broadcast the people heart in in the NRL.

But I have often been wrong in the past ……………….1976 was the last time I think……….that was a lie actually I often make mistakes…………..but that is how I see it.

Midfielder said  | April 14th 2008 @ 11:48am | Report comment

Redb

You may be right ……………..I may be wrong……. we will see in two years or so who was right.

Midfielder said  | April 14th 2008 @ 12:41pm | Report comment

Redb

That’s an interesting point you make about the heads up. I just feel as I said before the NRL has climbed off its knees and football will be different to what it has ever been before. ( that’s actually to tame, football in Australia read post Lowy …A-League is on a different planet nay universe to the old NSL)

But as I said time will tell

Redb said  | April 14th 2008 @ 1:21pm | Report comment

Midfielder,

There is nothing to say that the AFL and NRL TV rights will be similiar next time around. Again i don’t see a see-saw approach where one automaticially goes down if the other goes up. I think that attitudes reflects a RL fan mindset that the AFL does not deserve a cent for its TV rights and thus when RL is back on its feet as you say, the AFL will get bugger all. The NRl will get what it deserves which at the moment is a east coast footprint. The NRl has greater saturation of pay Tv viewers due to high subscriber numbers in Sydney, Melb and bris about the same level, very low numbers in Perth and Adelaide for pay TV penetration. Pay TV has onyl receently stated to dictate tersm to the AFL, but has had the NRl on its knees for awhile - look at the media ownership for reasons (incl Superleague) for the problems of the NRL - nothing to do with the AFL.

Towser,

I see a solid progression for the A League and the game in Melbourne. You would know better than i about crowd support in sydney. I know the Swans have finally got a niche in that market where 40,000 will turn up to a game - it was all red and white on Saturday night, very few West Coast or neutral supporters. it has taken a long time to get consistent support.

Sydney FC hasn’t been able to capture the latent support that the code has in Melbourne for the code and as myself and Dave agree, there is a degree of cross code support for AFL and soccer in Melbourne. It seems that Sydney need a little bling to get them moving when it comes to soccer, yet they have a much bigger player base than Melbourne.

it is so easy to attend sport in Melbourne, perhaps that is the difference.

Redb

Michael C said  | April 14th 2008 @ 2:37pm | Report comment

We in Melb like to point out that, unlike the apparent ‘home’ of soccer - that the ’super team’ of the comp is MVFC.

And why?

Because they have absorbed and utilised the existant Melb sporting (football - AFL) culture.

They have made no secrets of recruiting former AFL folk and utilising AFL style marketing models.

They have recognised a high number of AFL club members who ALSO are MVFC members - - - why? The underlying strength of the game, the club - -not so much. The fact there’s nothing else on in town during what otherwise was the in between seasons sports attendance doldrums - - that helps.

22K members, and a couple of times last year the attendance dropped below 22K. NOt flash with nothing else on. Didn’t get anywhere near the 50K home attendance vs SFC the previous season. Perhaps they’ve found their niche.

I’m still not sure that a South Melb soccer club in the HAL wouldn’t have provided almost similar figures.

Now - your attack on North Melb -
lets say that 10%of the 30K members are ‘charity’ cases for 1 year only - that still would leave 27K fair dinkum supporters BACK on with NORTH MELBOURNE as distinct to the “Kangaroos”. That’s not bad, still a club record by over 2k margin.
And if only 20K north supporters and members turned up on Saturday - - so be it, for me, I didn’t go as it was first round of VAFA footy - I play saturdays. Most other country and suburban footy kicked off - - very, very few people don’t make the effort to get down the first week to their local club as players or supporters of family and friends.

MVFC - they play OUT OF PHASE with the State league and local leagues - i.e. across summer - - really, if a single team representing the entire code of world football in Melbourne/Victoria couldn’t get 22K members and average 20odd K attendances - - then, would not there be something wrong. If SFC were the ONLY NSW team, probably they might be doing that too.

Now - remember also - the Melb vs North match on Saturday was live against the gate on Pay TV - inc into Melb - I was able to hang around at my club and help out with duties for the 1s (as an old bugger, after playing the ressies) and still duck in and keep track of the progress on the tele. Gee - what does that say about it all?

However - true - NOrth have a record of sub 30K finals matches vs interstate sides - dating back to ‘93 vs WCE out at Waverley - - but, of course, that means people finding more $$$ after paying for their H&A memberships - - and, the reality of your attack here is that traditionally the NOrth and Bulldogs demographic is a little more cash strapped, they can be a bit of a soft target - and, especially for the older folk and country supporters - it’s not always possible to drop everything and attend a game that is scheduled at 1 weeks notice. Personally, I find the first round of finals is a little over priced given that there are 4 games compared to the older days of only 2 games on the first week of finals.

You also need to remember - that for any timeslot, such as a Friday night, not all members can make it - many older members and family and country groups may not be able to get to a Friday night game - - younger members may be playing their own sport and unable to attend afternoon matches.

Cash entry from away supporters is the real icing on the cake though, but - you certainly pick your target games to go as an away supporter if you’ve only purchased a home membership package - -certainly, I’m thinking about going as an away supporter this week to North vs Coll - - alas though, do I really want to pay my hard earneds into the Coll coffers??

Neutrals at the venues - the MCG, you hope to attract a few MCC and AFL members, and TD, the Medallion club etc. Certainly, Nth vs Melb on perhaps the last nice sunny Sat arvo wasn’t really an attractive match for people hoping to make the most of what could be the last warm weekend afternoon before winter hits Melbourne. I can’t blame them. I’m a member and chose not to go.

It’s not all black and white.

Also, MVFC never has another game on in Melb against them at the same time,(only cricket once or twic)e let alone over the same weekend - - the only action for medallion club members for perhaps 3-5 months might be a soccer game once a fortnight. Your point would only mean anything if MVFC were running in direct competition - with something.

Fair enough though, interesting topic - but, your conclusions are a little rubbery.

But - on a perspective you failed to look into -

Profitability.

The reality there is that for now MVFC is about the only profitable HAL club - and by some way - because of the lower salary cap etc - thus their higher revenues and a pretty okay stadium deal do them many favours relative to other HAL clubs and AFL clubs RESPECTIVELY.

Revenue wise, North Melb for example struggle by comparison to Collingwood, Adelaide etc - but NOT by comparision to NRL or HAL. HOwever, a budget consumes the amount of money available to it, and so - NOrth aren’t overly profitable.

MVFC - are okay as a big fish in a little pond of the HAL - - but, already displayed is the ‘world scale’, such that Osaka had a single player worth more than the entire MVFC salary cap. If allowed to openly compete globally - suddenly, MVFC would find their revenue sadly insufficient and would have probably zero profitability in the attempt to buy the best and compete in a more expensive market.

The AFL clubs at least still have that as a bit of a safe guard - a pretty isolated and regulated single country market.

Michael C said  | April 14th 2008 @ 3:52pm | Report comment

Towser -

certainly, good luck to MVFC should they position themselves to try to take on the world proper.

However -

what takes more guts, trying to work for Nestle or Kraft and ascend their ‘global’ corporate ladder.
or
trying to build up and sustain a purely domestic company - say, a Goodman Fielder - and hold off the global big boys…..

there’s guts to be admired in both scenarios - as the Mitsubishi example shows - just being part of a ‘global’ entity is no guarrantee of success - - so, again, good luck to MVFC in their battles.

and, hopefully the FFA will give MVFC a ‘event’ fixture like AUtd had last year around NYE’s at Adelaide oval……I thought the FFA erred by having AUtd host MVFC twice in first 8 rounds before providing a GF replay, finally, by what, rnd 15 or something at TD - - by which point there was no hope of a 40-50K crowd. Likewise, the MV hosting SFC was one week late - - shoulda been in Melb even on the Monday of Melb Cup Eve - at least on that ‘carnival’ and unofficial 4 day weekend in Melbourne town - - back during the RUWC on that weekend we had 60+K at the ‘G for International Rules hybrid game, and then 55K at TD for Aust v Ire RU match…..factor in a regular fixturing of MVFC hosting SFC on that weekend, and suddenly the HAL has a locked in Anzac day style fixture……….

Michael C said  | April 14th 2008 @ 4:10pm | Report comment

KB -

I’ll forgive you given you are living up there on the sunny Gold Coast -

however, it is well known in Melb that many MVFC members are also card carrying AFL club members. What proportion - I don’t know. However - I am safer in saying this than is Dave in his suggestion of how many ‘charity’ case memberships there might be at North Melbourne.

Melb Victory got Geoff Lord (formerly associated at high level with Hawthorn footy club) on board as Chairman.

If you attend Hawthorn games - you might hear the AFL version of soccer style song and chanting. However, it often get’s cut short by the need to just cheer - - those lucky ruddy Hawks fans and ‘Buddy’ Franklin et al, sitting 4-0 on top of the ladder.

And the beauty of MVFC over summer - people who the rest of the year go their separate ways - can get together at the soccer and support a team that doesn’t really mean that much to anyone (yet - it’s only 2 and 3 years in), whilst wearing a t-shirt.

Now - just what would be the case in winter, perhaps whilst sharing OP with Storm…….totally different story……totally.

So - when Towser speaks of guts - - there’s still those who look on with disdain that the FFA tries to present itself as the ‘true football’……….in summer.

And so - be careful about claiming the status of 8th best football club in Melbourne when you using those non-ratings period ‘points’ for your scoring matrix.

btw -
Dave said:
“Not only are they the biggest of all the football clubs in Melbourne”

when you’re speaking in the sense of ‘football’ generically, and referring to Storm plus every FOOTBALL club in Melbourne - - then this is a silly statement. Victory - the biggest of all the Association or World football clubs in Melbourne - - but, certainly in the Melbourne context - they are the biggest of all the soccer clubs in Melbourne.

Redb said  | April 14th 2008 @ 4:14pm | Report comment

KB,

Loving it how your defending Melbournians. Such passion and respect.

Do we assume you’ve not jumped the Bling FC ship and are headed south for some real support of a team. Hmmm…..

Redb

Michael C said  | April 14th 2008 @ 4:47pm | Report comment

Towser -

a little selective -

i.e. MVFC is the local ‘ambassador’ for the biggest show on earth. That carries certain advantages - true, I’ve long argued that there is a flip side, a double edgedness of the sword that means that MVFC is competing for TV viewing against Liverpool, Man U, AC Milan, Bayern Munich etc, and even in effect competes with the Socceroos. However, there’s some might big coat tails that MVFC can ‘free ride’ on in other respects too.

Holding you head above water domestically - depends which domestic market we’re speaking of - but, I won’t touch that for now - other than to say that the AFL IS in competition with the global sports - they compete for the affections of fans and viewers with every sports on earth - just some more so than others. The level of direct, in your face competition varies - from city to city and month to month.

There’s always that scale argument that suggest that Aust has too small a domestic population to support 4 codes - so, if the AFL were the only game in town in all of Australia I’d more take your slant on it - i.e. the sole domestic entity that also happens to be solely domestic, however, in varying ways, the AFL is (and always has been and always will be) in competition with 3 other football codes - all of which are international to varying degrees - let alone basketball and cricket and tennis and any of the other olympic sports etc.

Surely there’s a point at which , as I do with the GAA in Ireland - that you must admit that it takes a fair bit of guts,determination and the like to work your but off to promote and sustain the local product in the face of the ‘big spending’ foreign incursions. I don’t know how long the AFL can keep it up - there are those who suggest it’s only a matter of time - - before the MVFC’s of this world blow away the opposition…….it might be that MVFC aren’t gutsy - it might be just that they have a certain ace up their sleeve that when played will proove irresistable. Or not?

Dave said  | April 14th 2008 @ 5:18pm | Report comment

Towser
The crowds at MV are an eclectic lot, made up of the full cross section of Melbourne. It is truly wonderful to watch the number of people wearing MV gear (IMO around 50-60% have MV tops) entering and milling around the stadium. They don’t congregate in ehtnic groups but rather as friends and families. It amazes me how many females go especially wearing MV gear. During HAL games there are many more families and youngsters, particularly during day games. For ACL games there is less of the youngest children. There are very few who wear Euro club gear and obviously no flags tops etc relating to ethnic or race issues. There are some AFL members and one of the mates l go with is a Carlton member. He never used to go to football in the old state leagues but is also an AC Milan supporter. Not sure of the crossover numbers but in 2007-08 there were many problems with the venue management and active supporter groups which kept a few away, plus the poor football being dished up didn’t help. The crowd is knowledgeable and passionate (unlike what MC said about members not caring because they also support an AFL club. Rubbish!) The area with the least supporters in is the mid level TD members who by and large are AFL. They also were the ones who did not attend Aus vs Qatar WC match and resulted in only 51,000 attending instead of 55,000.
However as l said on an earlier post there are many thousands of football supporters who will not attend MV games for a wide variety of reasons. IMO they are waiting for the second team and wouldn’t it be great to have a local derby at TD or the new venue! What an atmosphere that could generate!!

Towser said  | April 14th 2008 @ 5:40pm | Report comment

Thanks for that info Dave. Gives me a good insight into the present football scene in Melbourne.

Midfielder said  | April 14th 2008 @ 5:46pm | Report comment

KB

The A-League in Hal 2, carried out some surveys pertaining to the crowds coming to A-League matches.

What was interesting was over 75% of people coming to matches also had AFL & NRL teams depending on what state you came from. Also that about 50% had been to and AFL or NRL match in the season that proceeded Hal 2. In Sydney & Melbourne the figures were a tad higher.

Also that over 50% of the crowds were young families going to A-League matches.

Its actually good news …………not bad news…………….Frank Lowy said and he is right ……………follow Collingwood in winter and Victory in summer, …………. if they over lap make a choice. Follow Parramatta and the Flying Choppers make football your second team.

Its OK, the A-League is in no position to take on either the AFL or NRLin winter and the standard of play on the field as it is now is not ready for FTA. Facts sorry KB, but don’t dispair we are building and will continue to build and by becoming the second code in each state will in time make us the number one code nationally. From their who knows but the AFL & NRL will always be their, and they should be as they both have a long and proud historys and heaps of loyal backers.

I also urge you to see the good in both the AFL & NRL, and we can learn from what they do well, …………. and learn when they do bad i.e. not that good.

Just take each step at a time…………….keep you head…………….play the game………….not the player………… we will win of that I have no doubt.

Midfielder said  | April 14th 2008 @ 5:50pm | Report comment

Redb

Prehaps my last comment on this as we are to a certain extent going around in circles……………..but there is no question of the strenght of the AFL or its crowds numbers my post was simply about future TV deals ……………. and I respect the logic behind your comments……………… just see it will happen differently…………… but admit I could be wrong and you could be right……………as I said we will know in two or so years.

Dave said  | April 14th 2008 @ 6:27pm | Report comment

Redb

I cant believe the only games you and Michael C have been to were vs Sydney and 0-0. The only home game l have missed in 3 seasons was vs Sydney 0-0! Unfortunately dud games occur in every code. An individual turning up to a game with no emotional attachment and sitting through a dud game can be a real turn off. My 15 yr old daughter (marginally Tigers B/c of her mother) hadn’t been to an AFL game but her best friend and the family are mad Cats…Yes they took her to TD last year when cats won by 25 goals. Daughter and her friends left at 3/4 time saying it was boring. She hasn’t asked to go again.

Towser said  | April 15th 2008 @ 10:29am | Report comment

Dave

Interesting thing is regarding South Melbourne, I always enjoyed watching them in the NSL. Not just for their style of football but the atmosphere at the ground always seemed to be electric(TV viewing only ).
If they were a team representative of a geographic area they would do well,but the atmosphere was created in my opinion by the Greekness of the club which I personally liked because I found it colourful(but was severely limited in its appeal to the community at large).
One of the challenges of the new era is to keep clubs such as South Melbourne relevant to and viable in the present scene.
They are after all the equivalent to clubs in the lower divisions in Europe for example and from these clubs the top leagues have obtained many quality players.
Here Roddie Vargas & Sasha Ognenovski for example have made the step up from the VPL to A-League,no sweat.
The Proposed FFA cup should help in this respect.
So from Melbourne Victory’s perspective it is in their interest to maintain good relations with SM and also the other VPL clubs as they are part of the lifeline for players they need top tap in to.

Michael C said  | April 15th 2008 @ 12:11pm | Report comment

Dave - took a while, I’ve kinda done it.

1. Perhaps a bit of both – certainly there was an element of getting people in familiar with the task of running an elite professional football club in Victoria – AFL therefore the logical starting point.

2. Certainly a several successive hours of no goals turned a few of the ‘theatre’ goers off – fair enough. And I’ve already mentioned my opinion on some of the scheduling (and a relief to find that the AFL aren’t the only folk able to butcher their fixtures)

3. The Month of October – is doldrums month. There is nothing much on, and nothing on a regular basis. It is the month of weddings simply because the worst you might do is clash with a rained out round of local cricket or the footy end of season trip – for those clubs lucky enough to have made it through to the GF.
The Month of October – is now the domain in part of the HAL.
Don’t forget – the international cricket – it’s not like there’s 5 games on in Melb and 5 in Syd and 3 in Brissie each weekend over summer. You get one game at a time in one city of Australia. That’s hardly a ‘live attendance’ competitor for the HAL. However, if you believe it is then fine – in your world that may be the case. I look at the roughly 500K folk who each week attend AFL, NRL and Super 14 – who, suddenly have weekends free….now, how many turn up to the cricket?
The tennis is for 2 wks in Melb – not sure how many people reserve their calendar for the Adelaide invitational?

4. There’s a lot of Greeks yet to commit to MVFC - - will they support any alternate new entity irrespective of it’s structuring/origins? Dunno – but, there’s an awful lot of Greeks in Melbourne. Fair enough that Glory seem to confirm that old NSL allegiances don’t seem to count for much now. Who knows – but, SM vs MVFC on a Wed night practice match last year drew about 7-10K or so didn’t it? Also flares thrown onto the pitch and struck a player – but, that’s another story.

5. First game was interesting, Easter Monday, we raced back from East Gippsland to get to the game, the reserved seated members areas were well enough populated - - I presume that there’s many members who haven’t got reserved seats - - it might be that we’ve got a baby booming demographic now (based on the folk who got drawn in via the 70s power era and since) who do like we (my family) do, pick about 5 games a year to get to - - - but, wouldn’t consider NOT getting the membership - - so, yes, it is a partial donation - - and why not? (and probably, North in particular in the last 10 years, have had only an 8 game home membership because of interstate ‘home’ games - - and have effectively trained their supporters into LESS match attendance. This might be the interesting thing next year, as, both the once off members drop off and the regular members have to cough up more $$$ for an 11 game home package - - I’m thinking we might use my country based parents address to get a 5 game country family package……am I evil for planning that??? - - - do you know what – I do sometimes have better things to do - - and, sometimes might prefer to take the kids to local footy than to the ‘big league’ – I wonder if that’s evil as well?? )

I will wear that perhaps 10% max of the 30+K membership is once off non-core Nth Melb memberships. However, again, the remaining 27K is a club record - - and illustrates a lessening of seasonal churn. Just how many are you suggesting are effectively ‘phoney’? When you suggest “a large number”.

MV need to generate their own stories and their own impetus - - it’s still a case of we’re only talking about 20-25K people in ALL of Vic go to a HAL game once a fortnight - - if there were 5 or 6 teams in Melb and 150K going each week - - then, the happenings at MVFC might be more highly discussed in general terms. Don’t whinge about it. However, there should be no reason to NOT get 40K other than capacity at the new rectangular venue – in which case they should get to the stage of the Crows and Eagles, having all possible memberships taken up and in fact having a waiting list to get on. Good luck to them.

6. Look – I make the choice of club membership first and foxtel has gone by the wayside ever since the kids came along. However, we know well the stories of the Salvos giving hampers to families struggling only to realise they have their tv satellite dish on the roof - - - some people make really strange choices. At any rate – my position was that the game was on at my local footy club and I was more use there. And, perhaps they’re more doing the Sydney thing of going to the ‘pub’ to watch it.

7.I’m confused, when you say “football runs for 11 months”, which football are you talking about?

Yes, football started in Melb to keep cricketers fit. During winter. Soccer – i.e. the Sheffield brand likewise. And soccer is still traditionally played around the world during winter. It was such in Australia. Until the big brave move of the HAL to summer - - following the move of basketball that was being slaughtered in winter going head to head. It’s smart – but, it’s not dignified for the ‘world game’ of soccer to so openly admit defeat – run away to the relative sanctuary of summer and then promote the game as ‘football but not as you know it’…….just what message were they trying to send.
You and I both know they are trying to build their stocks in the relative comfort zone of summer – up against only local unattended cricket as a regular weekly opposition. And, when able to – and still banking on the impact of major soccer events overseas - - will try to launch their assault on the domestic football market. It’s the backdoor way of going about it – true, not at all ‘in your face’…..it’s just, some of the smug ex-pat poms just can’t hold their tongues and keep letting the cat out of the bag…….

8. Simple – I’m referring mostly to the fact that the HAL is in summer – not head to head.
You mention the ARC – that’s a silly comparison. You know it, I know it, I’ll ignore that.
The Storm – well, the obvious point being that they are going head to head – so, 11-12K avg might translate to 22k if NRL were a summer sport - - after all, they managed 20K to TD vs the Warriors. I would be surprised is Storm, should the NRL be over summer – wouldn’t do similar business to MVFC. After all – there’s more often than not, nothing on.
The Media protects its interests – that’s obvious. I don’t necessarily agree with it – a nice case in point recently was the Age pushing Earthhour and the H-S pushing Run for the kids - - - it’s sad that news and sports news is now commodified. However, no doubt – the Age which IS the paper of MVFC (the official sponsor) - - well, if it where so important then the Age would be starting to reel in the H-S which is seen as the paper that best ‘serves’ the AFL. Journo’s though love to spruik that they aren’t paid to write the ‘nice’ promotional stories - - and in the main, the only stuff we get on MVFC and Storm is purely promotional pieces - - where as all the negative and critical stuff is about the AFL. However – if the adage of no such thing as bad news applies, combined with that you only worry when they AREN’T talking about you - -then it might be said that pot stirring journalism is effectively the best ‘promotion’. I don’t know on that front, and, for pot stirrers – Sydney is the king led by their heritage of radio talk back pot stirrers in Laws, Jones et al.

9. Does this matter? The ‘link’ to the greater world game doesn’t make MVFC a freckle on the rrrrr’s of Man Utd or Chelsea or Liverpool. DO you really want to spend your days basking in the reflected glory of teams 5,000 miles away? The HAL is still a dodgey standard, and by virtue of the great world out there is still the last place that many players would plan to play their entire career. At least, when I go to the AFL each week – I now that I’m seeing the best available – I’m not so sure that this matters, however, I’m not watching 2nd ro 3rd rate competition like the NBA (it certainly suffered on comparison to the NBL TV product – so too does the HAL relative to the readily available and very vast product offering of world soccer on PTV) - - perhaps for the basketball and to a degree soccer – this comparative DOES matter - - I don’t really know.

10. MVFC have done well – I’ve said that before, it’s pretty cool that they can show up those arrogant Sydney folk - - and at the same time that AFL memberships and crowds set new records (without, as the NRL required, an extra team and therefore 24 extra games a year).
Melb IS the sporting capital of Australia. MVFC is an appropriate addition to the sporting landscape that is Melbourne - - - however, let’s keep mindful that it’s the modern incarnation of the highest level of domestic soccer – that for some time was the Knights, Heidelberg, Green Gully and South Melbourne at various times. To effectively relegate all those to the background and to NOT get 20K there there abouts for MVFC would be a concern. That said, just as the WAFL and SANFL suffered as the AFL brought in WCE, Crows etc - - the challenge for soccer is to not freeze out the state league clubs.
Now – don’t forget that it was Collingwood and Carlton who both dallied with running soccer teams – if ever a city was ready and willing to embrace soccer - - surely it’s Melbourne – alas, the soccer product just was never embraceable.
And, so, now, on the back of Fed Govt intervention – the FFA and HAL are going okay – but, still heavily dependant upon Govt hand outs (3 cheers for Rudd getting in and doubling the hand out).
So – please – be careful about telling me just how great all this is – and keep an ounce of humility along the way.

Michael C said  | April 15th 2008 @ 1:29pm | Report comment

Joe -

I agree in part, although, many folk will claim that having our own code of football dominant actually precludes us from that rating.

At any wait, let’s wait and see if we can hold onto the F1 GP????

[there's probably a thesis or 2 on the subject though, i.e. Melb - - - I still like the notion of the historical quirk that saw Melb become a wealthy and populous industrial and suburban city at exactly the same timeframe as the local game of football was created and evolved - such that as the city grew the game grew and the 2 were intertwined like perhaps nowhere else in the world - - - Sydney as an example had a different city rate and pattern of growth and it's football was more fluid, less defined, and waited more until the early 20th century to really consolidate. London obviously was an enormous city well before the late 1800s. That's why the MCG, Flemington, footy, Melb Cup, test cricket etc - they have all effectively grown parallel with the city of Melbourne. And in MOndays H-S the article about the survey for the greatest landmark in Melb, and most people nominated the MCG - - not a bridge, or a statue, of a really tall building or a church or a glorified spire or a grand theatre or even a body of water etc.......no......it was the bloody main footy/cricket ground. So many great Melbourne memories are directly linked to the MCG.]

Michael C said  | April 15th 2008 @ 1:45pm | Report comment

Towser -

that’s fine, re Sheffield - however, is there a little having your cake and eating it too for the FIFA folk to celebrate Sheffield who were outside of the FA until the late 1870s. The 150 yrs of Sheffield FC is fine for them, but for FIFA to claim it - that’d be like if Melb FC who played by Melb rules had decided in 1878 to sign up to the London FA rules and suddenly Melb FC would be deemed to be one of the oldest FA clubs.

(look - I realise that Sheffield brought certain things to the table that are distinct to modern soccer - such as the corner and bringing the x-bar back into the London rules - - and so, certainly, post 1870s there’s a 130 odd years of Sheffield direct influence - but, the Sheffield lads also had to foresake their kick thru forwards and loser off-side structures.)

The reason I mention all this is that I relate some of this as being perhaps (or perhaps not) even MORE tenuous a 150th by association than is the AFL in promoting the 150 years of Aust Footy. For me, either way, I’m happy with the historical recognition and any excuse for a party - so don’t get me wrong on it.

I’ll stick with soccer meself, especially if talking more broadly than a single code - - again, I’ll follow the lead of most newspapers in the English speaking world (that I surveyed recently) and also the esteemed ‘football’ magazine so cherished by Les Murray - “World Soccer”. It’s such a distinctive, unambiguous name. Not derogatory, just clear and concise.

Michael C said  | April 15th 2008 @ 2:25pm | Report comment

Towser -

and just as you very strongly associate the product you grew up with in Sheffield as ‘football’ - especially in the context of being IN Sheffield - - just as strongly there are those who associate the product we have grown up with in Melbourne as ‘football’ - - so, imagine our surprise when these folk who for generations had been known as ’soccer’ suddenly start jumping up and down DEMANDING (not just asking nicely, but demanding) to be known as ‘football’ — and that’s WITHOUT a qualifier -

- I have no idea where you live presently - but, I assume it to not be Sheffield, and I will happily refer to the Sheffield Rules football played in the Sheffield and other northern ‘associations’ that was distinct from what the Londoners played. However, once signed up to the London FA - the Football Association, and playing what in a broader multi football code context is ‘Association Football’, I make no apologies for referring to soccer at very least as ‘Association football’ - - and soccer happens to be the shortened form of that, just as ‘rugger’ might be used to refer to the game played by the Rugby Football Union….

…..again, all locally no more or less ‘football’ than an other persons ‘local’ form of football. Or Calcio, if that’s what the locals might call it…..

Michael C said  | April 15th 2008 @ 4:07pm | Report comment

Towser

and fair enough -

I’m sorry it caused offense - I will tighten up my recognition of sensitivities on that front. And true certainly - that whilst there are those who have hijacked that early independant heritage associated with Sheffield FC, and hijacked it in the name of what is oft called ’soccer’ - - that what was played and developed 151 years ago by Sheffield cricketers was most certainly their brand of Football played by Sheffield Rules. (I just lament that they didn’t stick to their guns on not being so constrained by off-side rules…..alas, those conservative Londoners ruled on that one……)

I must say - you did well to pluck it out - - I almost feel that I should apologise that you committed the required time to read my reply to Dave (which was done almost in jest to pay respect to his initial 10 points!;-)

Koala Bear said  | April 15th 2008 @ 4:55pm | Report comment

Michael C (comrade)
Ha, yes, my carpal tunnel operations to both hands have left me with two scares 3cms long along the palms of my wrists and hands. Hence gone is the legend of no woman can match the beauty of his hands; still sore but on the mend. It now seems my leg breaks and straight bat will need a lot of work to bring them back to their legendary status.. I watch Andrew Denton last night and was so inspired by the Mel Brooks interview and his statement of only being 21 in the brain and said humour is the best way to approach the rigours of life.. I whole heartily agree..

Just a little reminder to all; the first football was played in 14th century, Harrow Football = Sheffield Football = English Football = FIFA Football. (A foreign game and an English name)

Aussie Rules, the indigenous name and the game invented in Victoria and first played in organised state competitions VFA 1877; VFL competition in 1897. I am happy to agree with the Aussie Rules folk that the name is “Aussie Rules code” and the true birthday is either 1877 or 1897.. Backed up by Roy Masters’s arguments…

Well still sieving over the Navy Blue with their crooked chairman and his price fixing activities and the club tanking on field exploits. That aside, the fixtures between Carlton and Collingwood will never be the same again; as the magpie next door has gone above to play on the greatest stage of all; along with some outstanding bets still owing..

His son now has taken charge of his affairs and has assured me that there maybe something in the will.. Nonetheless, I have moved on, and will support the mighty Newtown Bloods FTC who has shown great preseason preparation with boxing training and match fixing activities.. Tho I remain committed to the Mighty Sydney Newtown Bloods FTC and support the Messiah (Roos) in his quest for the Holy Grail.. Limited as it maybe as to a small speck on the planet.. I am looking forward to the new season…

Ha yes, comrade meantime the RL Newtown Blue Bags remain firmly fixed in the metropolitan league and will probably remain there until 2080 or until Singo finds some more mad money after his next divorce settlement; to recharge the Blue Bags back into the NRL.. However, I will not hold my breath; but to continue my support for the Rabbitohs (bottom of the table) and watch every Russell Crowe’s block buster movie when released..

This brings me to the might Sydney FC, and it is shaping up to be a stellar year for the Lads; where the Lards of the Melbourne Victory’s gallant effort in the ACL, soon to rival the biggest Aussie Rules club in Melbourne (Collingwood) and have already surpassed Nth Melbourne, Melbourne, St Kilda, and whoever south of the border will go above them by a country mile one day, will forever be the brides maid and not the Bride.. But you must admire their ambitions.

I read somewhere in one of your posts that South Melb Hellas supporter’s do not support Melb Vic.. A strange claim indeed; as they play in the winter season. Surly a few thousand of them would head off to the Telstra dome to take in an A-League match..

This also gives me food for thought… How many Storm supporters watch the Melbourne Victory in the A-League season… Maybe 13k I should think, with a lot of them being ex British pats knowing the game fare better than the Aussie Rules fan.. Quite the conundrum Michael..??

~~~~~
KB

Koala Bear said  | April 15th 2008 @ 5:05pm | Report comment

Midfielder,
I think we are in good stead and have exceeded all predictions made by Frank Lowy and John O’Neill and as Johnny said “I told you so”.

~~~~~~
KB

Dave said  | April 15th 2008 @ 5:12pm | Report comment

Michael C
My 10 points were done in almost jest in replying to your 70 lines yesterday!!!
BTW
Clarifications
I wasn’t attacking NM only stating the stats on supporter numbers to make a point. Gloating…humility? I am proud of what MV have achieved and so should you be as we both live in Melb! I know some will see it as a threat to their code but l wouldn’t have thought you would.
You are only guessing about the number of charity memberships and so am l but at least l am providing some evidence…even your CEO backs this point up. If there aren’t around 10,000 donations to membership then why with a winning start (2 wins out of 4) do 17-20,000 members not show up for 2 of the first 3 games in perfect weather and games played in 1st class venues? My point being that MV have moved ahead of 2 possibly 3 AFL teams in Melbourne. As a football (world, so you don’t get confused ) person having lived here for decades that is significant IMO. The next challenge will be to get a second HAL team up and running here (btw there is no threat to the dominance of AFL in Melbourne but due to the total domination of it down here AFL clubs are the only benchmarks worth measuring against).
Also HAL starts in August and runs through AFL/NRL finals which takes up much media attention l think you would agree. HAL does have competition but not competition that you think significant.
The media issue is something football (world) have had to live with since… forever! It is annoying at times but “Rome wasn’t built in a day”. Stick by my comment about the amount of publicity in Melb media to keep NM here which ran over summer and all AFL supporters should help by buying a membership. Good luck to them whether it works time will tell. Melb will be the next club that needs help.
Football (world) runs for 11 months. That’s how long my son seems to be playing, preseason, post season etc. I should know l take him everywhere!! Many others striving to do well in the sport are the same. Sure its the same for other elite sports.
ARC is not a silly comparison…didn’t they have some elite players in the squad ex national/internationals. MV have one ex and one current internationals in their team. Why didn’t the ARC draw a crowd in Melb?? ARU obviously thought they would!
The point with HALs links to overseas (bigger pools) is obvious…sister club relationships, elite players moving on overseas to that club, movement of ideas/players/technology between these clubs. Links into Asia will take some time to devlop admittedly. Didn’t Melb AFL drop the Demons tag because they thought Chinese wouldn’t like it?? Think MV will have a better chance than the AFL clubs in this development of football relationships with Asia.
Finally why shouldn’t football receive gov’t assistance? They can see the benefits and no doubt look upon it as a good investment!! All over the news in recent months of various govt’s dishing out $millions to support AFL club activity. I have no problem with it as long as the community will benefit…Australia will benefit greatly from a strong and vibrant HAL and Socceroos challenging for the World Cup.
cheers

Joe FC said  | April 15th 2008 @ 6:09pm | Report comment

Dave
that’s cruel to bring up PSG ( what the heck - I may as well join in ).
Millster
I don’t wont to use the R word…….but…..

Dave said  | April 15th 2008 @ 6:39pm | Report comment

Midfielder

Agree with most of what you say but “develop an FA cup style format involving state or association teams to replace the final series “? Would need more information about that. Personally I wouldn’t be removing the final series. Whilst finals don’t occur in most other football countries l think we need to adapt to local conditions. Supporters in Australia love the finals, for any code. Supporters have voted with their feet on that one! Still maybe some room for a cup competition but lot of time and money to get it going..
BTW Went to MV vs Sth Melb practice game last year 7-10,000 but unfortunately many problems in the crowd.

Redb said  | April 15th 2008 @ 7:22pm | Report comment

KB,

Bloggate - no don’t reckon. Besides the World Cup thing has been done to death on the Roar and I maintained my same stance about it on Sportal, Flog and the Roar.

But as you can see, I dont mind the Melb Victory and wish them well. If you read anything else in my comments I can’t help that - would have loved to see melb beat Sydney by one goal in the 89th minute. Nil all draws are like fake orgasms.

Redb

Midfielder said  | April 15th 2008 @ 8:12pm | Report comment

Joe & Dave

Here is how it would work ………….. and be ……………. better ………….. and better accepted.

The current final series is over six weeks.

This is how the new FA cup system would work you need 16 teams, all A-league teams plus 4 or 6 others maybe state champions however that is worked out. But works like this.

Weeks 1 - 2………..16 teams to 8……..home and away
Weeks 3 - 4 …………8 teams to 4……..home and away
Weeks 5 - 6 ………… 4 teams to 2 ……home and away
Week 7 ………..Final one match

So its just a different format of a tried and proven football league adopted to local conditions, and only one week longer. Plus it creates being premier with chief status

Now each part of the country could try to be one of the final 16.

Anyway ………. what do you think………..

Dave said  | April 15th 2008 @ 8:33pm | Report comment

Midfielder & Joe

Love your work Midfielder but…not in place of the finals. Perhaps as a Pre season comp?
Can l give you some info that might help you understand some of the issues down here. As l said previously went to the MV vs Sth Melb practice match pre season 2007. MV had a very young team, not full strength from memory. They ended up with 4-5 VIS players (15-16 yr olds playing in the 2nd half! MV won in a canter and one of the VIS boys scored the last goal in a 5-1 drubbing). From meory Sth had their best team available (stand corrected if anyone can confirm). l actually didn’t get in until just before half time. There was a que half way round the ground when l turned up about 10 mins after KO. Took some time to get in. Security was very evident with body searches before entering. Crowd about 7-10,000 but there was trouble. Point is MV were not a class above but 2-3 classes above. They were in pre season and Sth were near the end of their season. They were the Premier League Champs or Runners up from previous season. MV did play Whittlesea at the end of current HAL to trial some players. They won that night 3-1. Whittlesea were Champs or runners up from last season.
Expense would be considerable with long travel. Would Fox be interested? Venues?

Joe FC said  | April 15th 2008 @ 10:48pm | Report comment

Midfielder
Can’t but help admire your cognitive ability ( not to mention heart ) but I am still fearful of replacing the finals with an FA cup. It seems too risky ( or maybe I’m just too conservative ). I’m sure there is a place for it - we just need to find one. Interesting article in today’s SMH by Michael Cockerill. Much work has been done but much more remains to do.
Dave
No response from Millister - must be jet lag.

Koala Bear said  | April 16th 2008 @ 8:10am | Report comment

Redb wrote: But as you can see, I dont mind the Melb Victory and wish them well. If you read anything else in my comments I can’t help that - would have loved to see melb beat Sydney by one goal in the 89th minute. Nil all draws are like fake orgasms.

Redb,
Well at least I am pleased to hear you got laid…

~~~~~~
KB

Koala Bear said  | April 16th 2008 @ 8:57am | Report comment

Michael C wrote: Glad to hear about the wrists - and so, at the bar late at night you tell the tragic tale of your attempted suicide and stress how one more drink to calm your nerves from the barman despite your lack of funds might avoid an unfortunate episode in the ‘comfort facilities’……

(Finally another skill to my bow)

Michael,
Not only that I now request the Sinatra classic at the piano bar in the RSL “Its 1/4 to three and no one in the place except you and me, so set them up Joe”. (You’re old enough to know that song.. I still have the Sinatra LP somewhere in the house)

I think Harrow Football = Sheffield = English Football = FIFA Football is indeed a fair statement to make to prove beyond all doubt that the name “Football” belongs to the round ball game and has the right to use it in Victoria.. Aussie Rules is the Victorian version so you need to concentrate on the indigenous of it.. “Aussie Rules” its not a derogatory name at all..

I mean if you lay claim for the 1858 scenario… I think Football can lay claim to the 14th century scenario.. as you yourself said in your own article that “Harrow Football is early Soccer”… ( just love my new found skill)

~~~~
KB

Michael C said  | April 16th 2008 @ 1:09pm | Report comment

KB -

you’re probably right - at least in part - and probably that’s what it has taken to allow the AFL to force the hands of the club presidents - - because, sadly, even though many people suggest the AFL to be a dictatorship - - well, it isn’t completely, and, on certain issues - perhaps it needs to be. So - friends with fat cheque books or big guns…….either will get business done in MElbourne town.

(the Port vs bris game on Sat night was gone at half time - Port by a mile, gone at 3/4 time - - and …..oh…..Bris won?!?!? Actually I heard at one point the live odds offered were Port $1.03 the win, and Bris out to about $17 - - would’ve been a nice earner there to back them in to over run the Port boys tired from their showdown the week before.)

- - don’t forget, AFL provides Foxtel there leverage in the markets in which foxtel is most sluggish - - the FTA ratings only play so big a part, being split over 2 networks - - Foxtel pays the lions share and for them, it’s vital growth strategy - - I reckon the FTA boys do a lot in contra - so, not REAL dollars - anyway.

Soccer rights - still all comes down to the Socceroos and the HAL being separated or not. Is not there the potential that if the Socceroos are added to the anti syphoning list - as many have hoped for and has I seem to recall been forecast - - would not that effectively freeze Foxtel out? I don’t for the time being see the HAL being a huge bargaining chip - other than there’s no other REGULAR competition other than irregular cricket/tennis over that time frame. I don’t really see the FTA networks jumping out of their skin for the soccer (and that would go against international trends anyway - to be on FTA). With minimal PTV competition - fox should still be able to stitch the HAL up at a reasonable rate - perhaps only competitng with SBS - and the price must be in some way indexed against the huge amount of overseas soccer content available - and in many cases more popular across a broader demographic.
The socceroos - I could see some bidding going on there - however - you’ve no guarrantee of time slots or regularity of matches - - i.e. in knock out tournaments with relatively floating schedules/fixtures - - it’d be interesting to see what someone would be willing to pay. Time zones - who knows when the live match would be on - -the FIFA WC is only every 4 years…..I know there’s the qualifiers etc. It’ll be interesting, because there might be the best case and worst case and somewhere in between - - just who knows how much someone will be willing to punt on the green…..so to speak.

Redb said  | April 16th 2008 @ 6:47pm | Report comment

Midielder,

Looks like the NRl should be worried. not that I care.

i wonder why cricket wasn’t raised - essentially the A League competes with cricket for the hearts and minds during summer.

Redb

Dave said  | April 16th 2008 @ 10:19pm | Report comment

Michael C

If you remember the TD was supposed to have a facility for transformation into a rectangular stadium so it could be used by those codes. What happened there?? AFL took over and no more chance of rectangular configuration!! Unfortunately TD not the best for football because of its oval shape. Rectangular stadium is a fantastic investment and will be used by 3 sports. TD is only good for AFL and concerts. Not footballs fault! There will be more opportunity for international games at new stadium. It will get excellent usage and is very much needed in this city. When built you will no doubt come and sample the atmosphere. It will be much better than TD with the crowd on top of the action, more like a European stadium. Cannot wait for the first game there.
BTW I don’t dislike NM nor am l picking on them but as said a few times already AFL clubs are the only benchmarks worth comparing against in Melb. If another code (football in this case) is doing better than 2-3 AFL clubs that is significant IMO and the purpose of the article.
However as your CEO implied the pressure is on clubs such as Melb and NM with expansion and relocation inevitable. Personally l would like to see Carlton sent to… where ever

The Substitute said  | April 16th 2008 @ 10:49pm | Report comment

Midfielder,
My observations on rugby (and to be honest I don’t observe rugby often) is that they don’t just have problems at a grassroots level, but all the way to the Super 14 level. Other codes in this country have the opportunity to move forward in this era of expansion without being held back by the interests of two other countries, ie SA and NZ.

In the next few years, whilst the AFL and A-League will be spreading their wings, the ARU won’t be able to compete because they cannot put new teams in West Sydney AND the Gold Coast AND Melbourne all at once.

It was a good thing getting a team in Perth during the mining boom, but I wonder how they could possibly compete medium- to long-term against codes with as many as 4 times as many franchises at their disposal.

That’s just my view from the perspective of a Victorian who doesn’t really follow the game, but is there any hope the ARU can actually come out of the expansion wars healthier than when it went in?

Midfielder said  | April 16th 2008 @ 11:25pm | Report comment

The Substitute

You not that far off the mark……………. but rugby will always have access to funds Rugby may have few fans but many who are fans have lots of influence.

Also don’t discount the NRL it will never recover its pre SLW days but has limited access to markets in PNG & NZ.

Football just has to keep its head and as I have posted before just keep moving forward and not buy in to what either the NRL or AFL are doing just make sure we do our thing right.

John Ryan said  | April 17th 2008 @ 12:14am | Report comment

I will ask a question what will happen if Glory fall over,they are in trouble now,the council has agreed with the Govt to do a makeover of MES,30 odd mil I think,but that is to keep the R Union boys quite as they are not to fond of Subi and getting gouged by the AFL over hire,and the Reds wont be to bothered either.
I have been to a couple of games at MES when the Glory where in their hayday the game was not that interesting but the crowd in the Shed made up for it.

Michael C said  | April 17th 2008 @ 10:22am | Report comment

Telstra Dome -

There were a host of potential configurations -

remember that Vic in the 90s was still coming out of a cash strapped ‘Albania of the south’ era. Fully Govt funded projects were at a minimum. The STate Govt WAS NOT going to get this job done itself. But - wanted a Docklands stadium to kickstart the entire docklands precinct redevelopment - to revitalise the city and connect it more so with it’s ‘waterfront’. (which it has).

At the time, the upcoming 2000 Olympics were in part hoped to have soccer games hosted at the new Docklands venue (potentially a 30K venue) and what became Suncorp in Brissie - - neither eventuated. I have no idea in Brissie, but in Melb - the fact was:

To build a dedicated centrally located 30K rectangular venue with no decent national soccer comp, Storm just starting out but the example of 3 SoO matches over 4 years with crowds from 80K, down to 50K and then to 25K - and no RU to speak of - - well, there was a shortage of medium term reason to build the venue - - the funding had to be derived privately or federally - so, how easily should that have been achieved?

Federal funds around the Olympics were hoped for - but, didn’t eventuate. It WOULD NOT have gone ahead otherwise.

The chances of Federal Funding weren’t great, as Costello hated Kennett - and the funds weren’t seriously going to be forthcoming. That was the only chance for a rectangular stadium - - but, even then, the regular usage would be what? Melb KNights in the NSL?? Storm once a fortnight……..nothing else at that point - - sure, perhaps if built then the Force might be in Melb and not Perth - - but, stadium aside, the ARU really had to get Force into Perth for some many other better reasons of known sustainability. Basically, the Docklands prospectus to potential investors was looking decidedlythin. (and who would dream of investing in such a project without the biggest game in town - beause, a private venue NEEDS bums on seats).

In 1999 it was decided that Olympic soccer would be played at the MCG - therefore, zero chance of a non-AFL involved stadium. By this time, the stadium couldn’t be built in time - there was zero chance of any reasonable funding - so - then, you’d be left with - just a batch of possible plans and a cancelled project.

Did the AFL muscle in? Well, perhaps they did, muscle in (if you want to put it that way), on a project that otherwise would be dead in the water. Would private investors only consider putting money in if they had a guarrantee of 2-3 AFL matches a week for 22 weeks a year for their bread and butter ROI?? Surely only a fool would suggest that this project could have gone ahead at the time without the AFL.

I have seen it stated by someone who worked in urban design at the time that the Govt actually approached the AFL - because, the idea of a stadium to kickstart the Docklands development was so attractive - - and only the AFL could supply 1million plus attendees per annum.So - the AFL sell Waverley land, invest $30-35m of their own, the stadium gets built without Govt funds - and rectangular code people persist in this silly claim that the AFL hijacked the project.

Now - that actually refutes any AFL conspiracy theory to undermine a rectangular stadium project.

The suggestion being that the funds at this point were AFL from sale of Waverley, and Channel 7 - trying to get more into bed with the AFL especially with respect to future broadcasting rights. As it turned out, Packer screwed them, via the 9/10/Foxtel bid - -and effectively ensured that Foxtel would kill off C7 entirely - it was worth that much - - - and, in essence - Foxtel, each time the AFL rights come up, has to ensure they have firm control - otherwise, they’d open the door for a competitor - - that’s if Channel 7 still harbours desires to go down that path to break the Ch.9/Fox/New Ltd grip.

At the end of the day, the happiest people were the Vic Govt and the AFL (state of the surface at times taken into account). Last year, a Vic Parliament budget estimates paper stated that Docklands is a $10B project, thus far $4B having gone in - - and the Private to PUblic ratio being 40:1.

So - please - leave the ‘hijacking’ notion behind.

Especially given that the rectangular codes will now get a 100% Public funded stadium of their own - - without private investors seeking to gouge out a ROI at the expense of the rank and file supporters of the games. If anything, there’s a devious conspiracy now to undermine the position of AFL in town by giving a HUGE financial free kick to the Rectangular codes - (do not for a minute underestimate the hit on the bottom line that some AFL clubs take from the less than reasonable stadium deal at TD).

Where after all is the News Ltd or NRL (same thing really) investment, or the Fed Funds - given that the Feds are bank rolling the FFA - - - how come the MCC (via memberships with value proposition based upon AFL and cricket and RENT most from the AFL) have to pay the lions share on MCG redevelopment (and it WAS the central focus of the C’wealth games AND DID take 2000 Oly soccer matches). Compare $256m committed (that was the figure WITHOUT MVFC signing on) to a 27,750 capacity rectangular venue with no guarranteed stadium filling tenant. Private investors wouldn’t touch it - and it’s still too small for Socceroos, Wallabies and even MVFC vs Juventus!!!!!
btw -
I saw this quoted on the ABC site from a report Nov 2001 :
“Colonial Stadium lost $225.4 million last financial year. A combination of turf, roof and ticket problems didn’t help. The turf wouldn’t take, the roof struts cracked, and die-hard footy fans simply couldn’t get their heads around booking ahead, leading to angry queues at inadequate ticket booths.”

I wonder whether those cracked roof struts might have anything to do with a preference to NOT roll out the mobile seating? Or whether it’s still a major issue with the turf (but, you’d think that once the AFL season is done, then MVFC could surely play the majority of their season in the soccer config???

Koala Bear said  | April 17th 2008 @ 8:50pm | Report comment

Michael wrote: Did the AFL muscle in? Well, perhaps they did, muscle in (if you want to put it that way), on a project that otherwise would be dead in the water. Would private investors only consider putting money in if they had a guarrantee of 2-3 AFL matches a week for 22 weeks a year for their bread and butter ROI?? Surely only a fool would suggest that this project could have gone ahead at the time without the AFL.

Michael C, interesting debate has developed on national stadia.. as a Sydney punter looking in from the outside…. (living on the Gold Coast).

I must say your post is a total Aussie Rules biased reply, tho all you say on the TD Stadium has some sense of truth in it, but your argument has not convinced me that the project would have been dead in the water without Aussie Rules finance. But, I fine it hard to fathom why Aussie Rules abandoned Waverly? Yes I know, it was a windy, desolate, hard to get to, no atmosphere, etc, etc. Venue.. But it was still in Melbourne.. It seemed to me that Aussie Rules saw an opportunity to hijack a proposed all purpose venue for all Melburnians for their own selfish interests and have done so without consideration or proper respect to other codes. Whilst Football lovers such as Dave and other Melb Victory FC, Melb Storm, and Rugby Union fans and supporters who have paid their fair share of taxes are continually treated like second class citizens. Especially now that Aussie Rules has almost exclusive use to the MCG in the winter..

With now the TD firmly in the hands of “Aussie Rules Hierarchy” as the main and only first tenant which makes me think that Melb Victory and others are only tolerated tenants to make some extra revenue during summer season with very little to say in the running of the Telstra Dome.. I read some time back in a SMH forum you said that (maybe Pipp or Redb said) that to reconfigure TD to a rectangle configuration for a one off match; the cost of doing so would incur a $36k fee every time for a Melb Vic home game.. What sort of nonsense is that..? That Michael is sheer extorsion by the main tenant. It is just being mean, and dictatorial to say the least..

In Sydney the now ANZ Olympic stadium administration let out the stadium to all.. Without service fee to reconfigure the venue to a rectangular, to an oval and definitely not, incurring costs of $36k.. So a lot of what you say is all bias for Aussie Rules, and not in the best interests of all Melburnians.. I can not accept the rationale of why it should cost $36K a time to reconfigure from oval to rectangle and back to oval as a too difficult or far too expensive exercise to do.. More likely an aberration of the Aussie Rules organisation as the main tenant wishing to make it exclusively an Aussie Rules purpose venue..

It’s lucky now and far too long in coming that a rectangle stadium is now going to be built and in use for 12 months of the year for all rectangle codes and for the use as a training facility for the Melb Aussie Rules club as I understand it… Is this another example of Aussie Rules trying to rule the roost.

So what of the future? Will the TD administrators suddenly find a cheaper way to reconfigure the TD from oval to rectangle..? Let’s wait and see what will transpire after the completion of the rectangle stadium..

Greg Baum’s article one mildly positive written article out of ten negative ones.. Nah I don’t think so just jumping on the band wagon… Read his early posts or Gleeson’s stuff..

Or this reply I received from the ABC’s Offsiders program about lack of proper representation of Football on a National TV carrier..

~~~~~~~
Thanks for your e-mail. The Offsiders team is acutely aware of the need
to cater for it’s national audience - wherever they live. However,
sometimes the big, fresh issue(s) on a Sunday morning dictate what
subject and sport we cover. And while we had Andrew Demetriou as our
interview guest, we needed to cover several strong AFL issues with him.

It is rare for Saturday afternoon matches of any code to be shown on
Offsiders(let alone Wednesday evening matches) unless there is a huge
issue arising from them. We simply don’t have enough time in 30 minutes
to cover the Saturday night issues/results, as well as matches that are
3 days old, whatever sport they may be.

Best regards, Offsiders..

~~~~~~~

This was after I had sent an email to the Offsiders of lack of reporting of an important game to the Australian Football community of Melbourne Victory’s game 24k attended on Wednesday night. However what was more important was to show the disgraceful episode of the Thursday night Footy Show, Sam Newman’s impersonation or derogatory skit of Caroline Wilson from the Age. One would think that, that was a matter for the Fairfax Group and Channel 9 and has nothing to do with the ABC nor the Aussie Rules and Andrew Demetriou.. And lost precious TV coverage of the Melb Vic FC important tie in the ACL.. You say fair unbias reporting..?? I don’t think so.. And I will bet Dave a Melburnian along with the 24k Melb Vic supporters who went out on Wednesday night would agree ..

~~~~~~
KB

Dave said  | April 17th 2008 @ 9:22pm | Report comment

Thanks KB

The issue of the TD is certainly an interesting one. The fanfare was certainly there for a multipurpose stadium for all the codes to use. There is little doubt of the general perception down here that the AFL intervened and the venue was all of a sudden problematic for reconfiguration to a rectangular shape. This is what it was supposed to be designed for!!! By coincidence around this time the AFL had grown tired of public dissatisfaction with Artic Park. $400 plus million spent and suddenly it was too hard or too costly or too damaging for the turf to slide out the stands??? Yeh sure. Anyway the new rectangular stadium looks terrific in the plans and with 32,000 MV fans packed in will be a wonderful addition to the Melbourne sporting landscape.
KB dont bother watching shows such as Offsiders. Did give it a go and Francis Leach is a football lover but it just concentrates on the AFL,NRL Cricket.
Michael C
“remembering that it was meant originally to be a rectangular arena until the AFL muscled in.” Dont quite follow your logic here? Cannot see how the writer by recording Cole’s sentiments on AFL hijacking TD and putting them in the paper is bias? Baum is an AFL man and generally critical of football. Are you saying that whilst doing this piece he should ignore his subjects views on a matter of some controversy and not report them? Elaborate on how this is showing bias?

Dave said  | April 17th 2008 @ 9:34pm | Report comment

Redb

That should be trifecta. Shows my lack of racing/punting knowledge.

Midfielder said  | April 18th 2008 @ 12:18am | Report comment

KB

Sorry opening line in previos post should read ……………… As we in know football is just as much a part of the Australian fabric as AFL, Union and League, with a long history in Australia. In time it will come out and JW words will come true.

Michael C said  | April 18th 2008 @ 9:14am | Report comment

KB -

listen to yourself mate…..Telstra Dome is PRIVATELY OWNED. Whilst the AFL was a contributor in the first instance of about 8% of the project cost - they are NOT the major share holder. It DOES NOT revert to their ownership for another 15 odd years.

Ask yourself, circa 1996-8 in Melbourne - just, where was the money going to come from for a soccer/rugby stadium costing $200m or so with no better tenant than Storm once a fortnight. And the old NSL. You know that that project had no legs.

Waverley park - well, you ran off a few nice points there - don’t forget, it was never finished and the promised public transport link never occurred. People hated the car park - and the only PT was buses running shuttle (through the car traffic) to Clayton and Glen Waverley stations. Even options to upgrade the venue or even to finish it (originally designed to be about 140K capacity) would be futile without the PT transport links put in. And still, now, with Sir Rod Eddingtons report - there’s stuff all about PT out that way or along the Eastern Fwy corridor that is so poorly serviced by PT.

Now - compare that to the offer of the showpiece stadium in Australia with rectractable roof - in a highly prominant central location rather than out in the ‘burbs. The AFL would have been made NOT to accept a reasonable offer to get involved - - and, certainly - - given the location would have accepted a reasonable offer with great delight to ensure that THAT location didn’t become the domain of the rectangular codes (if not in the short term, than, the long term). That’s probably the level of ‘hijacking’ = = accept the offer and ‘hijack’ the locality. However, - hijack implies an innitial ‘ownership’ or ‘possession’ - and that’s the main point - - there WAS NO OWNERSHIP or POSSESSION. And, without funding - there never would be.

KB - if you think the Telstra Dome is extorting MVFC and the rectangle codes - just ask the Western Bulldogs about their stadium deal - -

reported March last year

“THE Western Bulldogs said yesterday a “third-rate” deal at Telstra Dome was forcing the club to sell home games interstate. Bulldogs president David Smorgon said the club would pocket about $245,000 from eight home games at Telstra Dome this year — regardless of crowd growth. One-off games in Canberra and Darwin will reap the Dogs $600,000, protecting them from a heavy hit on the balance sheet. ”

“Smorgon attacked the club’s deal at Telstra Dome, which provides a flat rate of about $40,000 for home games against Victorian clubs and $15,000 for home games against interstate rivals. It is believed Collingwood and Essendon walked away with about $600,000 each from their Anzac Day clash at the MCG, highlighting the Dogs’ battles. ”

The AFL has to use the special distribution fund to effectively compensate clubs for their bad deals - - just ask the AFL how much year on year value their clubs would gain if they were gifted a $300m stadium (or, if the State Govt bought out TD and gifted it to the AFL).

I am sick of myopic soccer people whinging about being hard done by - - soccer - - for the level of domestic competition, i.e. coverage, attendance, news worthiness as a function of that - - soccer HAS been number 4 for a long, long time - - and it I doubt has ever deserved a ‘free-ride’ - - and it SURE IS GETTING THAT NOW - from the Federal Govt and the Vic Govt - - a $300m gifted stadium makes $20m across Arden St and Whitten Oval and a couple of other training venue upgrades look like chicken feed - - but, again, the real pay off is the on-going savings via NOT being extorted by stadium deals = = = because, KB - Telstra Dome is gouging the AFL and the tenant clubs. So don’t whinge about the deal soccer gets there and blame the AFL for it, that just shows your ignorance. (and please, I will defer to you local knowledge on the Gold Coast or regarding the Newtown lads or Johnny Warren - - please respect that we down here know a bit more about our own back yard.).

Dave -

It’s more that this line is believed and repeated and still trotted out and actually published in such a matter of fact manner. Note that it WAS NOT presented as a direct quote in what was a bit of a commentary section of the article - - it’s niether obvious whether it was in fact based on a direct quote or is para-phrased or even the journos in put - - it’s not clear, but it is again perpetuating a myth, a mis-representation based on the belief of a certain sector.

btw - 10 years ago, I supported an AFL venue at the Showgrounds at Ascot Vale - a great means to instigate a full refurbishment of the Showgrounds, and an ideal home ground for Footscray, North Melb and Essendon.

Koala Bear said  | April 18th 2008 @ 2:45pm | Report comment

RedB wrote: Boo Hoo KB

What a lack of respect to one of your valued Gold Coast senior citizens..? I am disappointed in you lard. However, I shall continue with your education and hope that one day you may learn something..

The SMH does not have soccer flog.. Surprised?… As this may be a surprise to you, It has an Aussie Rules (the Slog) forum and that you of course are welcome to and a Football Blog; check the menu bar next time, it has not changed in two years that I have been on it, which you and I of course visit time to time, you to thrust a dagger in the hearts of Football lovers (ala Gleeson) and I to contribute to interesting football issues..

Now you know I watch my fair share of all codes of football and have stated so, on numerous occasions. I have no real issues of any code with their structure or skill sets. I enjoy my football.. However, you belong to a fan base Aussie Rules, cult type, extremist group, who can’t accept the rise of football, and its threat to dominate in Australia’s sporting landscape. If that will ever happen who knows..??

So you like to thrust your dagger into the Football codes at every opportunity no matter which code it is, Rugbies or Football; this is your insecurity complex (STFS) of the mere mention of the relentless growth of football in Australia. Your negative response to any suggestions of football’s insatiable growth are somewhat akin to an over grown schoolyard bully and is getting under the skin of some bloggers on the ROAR.

Not mine of course, and there is no need to tell you and Michael C to whom I am referring to as I and you have read a lot of them.. Nonetheless, I try to expose the facts with you in particular to what is happening in the media and the powers to be to restrict the growth of all other codes in Melbourne..

Are you suggesting that $36k to reconfigure a playing arena is fair and acceptable sum in what is suppose to be an all purpose venue? If you do please give me a break down of what costs are involves reconfiguring the venue.. Remembering that it does not cost one extra dollar to any code to reconfigure the ANZ stadium from oval to rectangle and back to oval in the beautiful harbour city of Sydney ie there are no complaints from anyone as being ripped off..

All we Football folk ask is a fair suck of the sav… No reason why you guys can’t be second popular code in front of the Rugbies in the 21st century…

Michael just a reminder,

Michael wrote: Did the AFL muscle in? Well, perhaps they did, muscle in (if you want to put it that way), on a project that otherwise would be dead in the water. Would private investors only consider putting money in if they had a guarrantee of 2-3 AFL matches a week for 22 weeks a year for their bread and butter ROI?? Surely only a fool would suggest that this project could have gone ahead at the time without the AFL.

Dead in the water and “THE Western Bulldogs said yesterday a “third-rate” deal at Telstra Dome was forcing the club to sell home games interstate. Bulldogs president David Smorgon said the club would pocket about $245,000 from eight home games at Telstra Dome this year — regardless of crowd growth. One-off games in Canberra and Darwin will reap the Dogs $600,000, protecting them from a heavy hit on the balance sheet. ”

Surly you don’t expect me to bite on that last one, but you would think that Andrew would be funding the road show to Canberra etc to assist expansion policies. and the Bullies are way behind the Melbourne favourites of the big four, that’s life and I have seen them play on the MCG and TD on numerous occasions so what…

The point is if TD rolled out the seating there would not be a need for the rectangle stadium. As the old Olympic Park is an Athletics track and not to conducive to Football with its antiquated seating arrangements. Something had to be done for the long time suffering Football tragics. You say the original concept died in the water.. Well if that being the case then wouldn’t you have to say the new rectangle stadium should not have got the go ahead..

It seems to me that the government have been embarrassed in past events and now getting off their backsides to do something for the other tax paying football fans at long last.. ie for four codes of Football (if you want to include Melbourne Aussie Rules).. all year round.

Don’t forget that each 10 Aussie Rules Clubs in Melbourne have been given a $10m+ contribution from the government to build new or up grade their suburban facilities.. Where as how much did Melb Hellas receive or the Melb Knights or the Melb Jueventus receive over their years in football existence; are the members of those clubs tax payers or do they just exist in a black market economy..?

You said that the reason for the Magpies and whoever went to play in Dubai to play a game was only to conform to Government handout requirements..

So I would not complain too much about government handouts to Football..

~~~~~
KB

Michael C said  | April 18th 2008 @ 3:19pm | Report comment

KB -

I actually have no idea of fiscal cost for rolling out the squared config at TD - - I somehow doubt that it can still be done without bringing the entire roof down on top!!!! ( I wouldn’t be surprised - - and, really, the shareholders would’ve done what they could to secure extra tenants in off-peak times, one would imagine - - the money makers don’t care where the money is derived.)

You still seem to be driving this anti soccer conspiracy theory. I thought I had made clear that TD management has done no one any favours (it was TD management that annoyed the heck out of footy crowds by introducing the short lived no pass outs rule at the start of an AFL season - - hardly treating AFL and it’s fans as priority tenants!!!). Effectively - with TD - get in line and take a ticket to whinge about the private owners self interest and money gouging - - the state govt should do everyone a favour and buy it out.

You still seem unwilling to recognise the fact that the new rectangular stadium, worth over $300m - to be gifted effectively to 2 clubs in RL and HAL that represent a sum total of about 30K members and regular combined fortnightly patronage of about 35K - - - and not even worring about the ongoing benefits of a open door ’stadium deal’ via not dealing with private owners - - - you somehow think that ever $30m for state funds to 10 AFL clubs representing weekly attendance of lets say 200K and membership of lets say 330K - - - how do you work those sums to be fair - - - by any reasonable math, this new rectangular stadium in Melb is premature and would be vastly better spent on a rail bridge duplication of Clifton Hill, or a line extension to South Morang, or electrification to Sunbury or a public hospital at Phillip Island or………

(if Frank Lowy wants it so bad - surely he could interest Westfield into building it - surely, if it’s such a required venue then the Govt should’ve gone at least a PPP path - - or, could we again have tested the water to see if private funds could be mobilised for the square ended codes - - especially if you think realistically that that WASN’T the problem 10 odd years ago).

The 9 Melb and 1 Geel club have over a period of time had to negotiate with local, state and federal govt to gain access to funding and grants (grants - you know, all sporting clubs can apply for those) - - and, in the main have had to illustrate a suitable level of community partnership to win such funding - - it’s hardly ‘hand outs’, (although, in the case of the then Howard govt commitments -
“AFL club the Western Bulldogs hope to begin discussions with the Federal Government to put the finishing touches to the promised $8 million funding package for the redevelopment of Whitten Oval.

The Coalition’s commitment will be augmented by $3 million from the Victorian Government, $3.5 million from the AFL and a total of $2 million from five local governments linked to the western Melbourne region.”

Note please that the AFL was contributing more than either of the state govt or the local govts - - show me how many govt hand out projects the FFA are chipping in $30m or $3.5m into??

btw - this was put forward back in 2004 (a RL push to undermine AFL?? on the Gold Coast)
“Gold Coast City Council has made a multi-million-dollar commitment to revamp Carrara Stadium.

The council’s $6 million plan to redevelop a state-of-the-art rectangular stadium is a major boost for the Gold Coast’s bid for a National Rugby League franchise.

However, redevelopment of Carrara into a rectangular stadium undermines plans to encourage AFL teams to play home and away matches in the Queensland city in 2006. It would also scupper a push support for a second Queensland AFL team at what is the former home of the Brisbane Bears.

Plans to redevelop the stadium now hinge on getting the State and Federal governments to contribute $38 million - and how that figure is split.”
——

btw - North Melb received about $2m from the state govt -
as well, at the time, they announced:(The state government) $2.5 million for a new indoor facility, ground improvements and drought-proofing at Richmond’s Punt Rd home.

Essendon’s Windy Hill ground will receive $1.5 million for ground reconfiguration.

AFL chief executive Andrew Demetriou said the funding was warranted, despite the league’s healthy financial state.

“Australian football contributes $3.4 billion of economic activity to this country, Australian football pays around about $330 million in taxes to this country, we employ the equivalent of about 9500 full-time employees,” he said.

“Our sport and code is supported by about 60,000 volunteers.

“I don’t think anyone could deny that this code puts a hell of a lot back into the community.”

——-

BTW -
How would you interpret this headline?
“DATE: Monday, October 20, 2003

STATE AND LOCAL SOCCER RECEIVES FUNDING BOOST”

so - since you don’t recognise ’soccer’ - - I’m tipping that other fundamentalist ‘foot(soccer)ball’ zealots such as yourself have deliberate or via mis understanding - have managed to NOT pick up their cheques over the years - and so a heap of ’soccer’ funding commitments have been unutilised…..

Midfielder said  | April 18th 2008 @ 3:22pm | Report comment

Left ot trhe link
agian

Want a laugh for the weekend

No idea what game this is or where except to say its in the Middle East.

My sons were lol at the Commentator it was a you tube watch list today.

Listen to the Commentator at times his Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaassssssssssssss & OOOOOOOOOOoooo are so funny

Redb ………. maybe a new way to call marks I think

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52o2yEvH4W0&feature=bz301

Redb said  | April 18th 2008 @ 4:19pm | Report comment

Midfielder,

youtube malfunction at my end, can’t see it.

cheers
Redb

Koala Bear said  | April 18th 2008 @ 6:14pm | Report comment

Michael C..
Your figures are always impressive working for Fairfax digital you have all of those figures at your finger tips.. too bad you said that it will cost $36K to roll out the mobile seating some 18 months ago and now you say you don’t have any idea of how much it will cost and have forgotten that the rollout facility is there as I know it is and saw a news bulletin when it was rolled out for the fixture with the match played between Melb Hellas and Melb Knights there was a short TV news clip; then came the excuses of the ground damage etc etc. Never to be seen again.. Most probably all rusted up by now and check back to read a Redb post he points out that the rails are still in the ground ready to be used.. So what about the sum.. $36k? When you find your notes or link post it up…?

You are a bit short of your government funding promises to Aussie Rules, yet still to come, now doubt, second and maybe third stage development.. All adding up to $100m at a guess who does really know.. But let’s hope that Football will get the 2018 FIFA world cup and the financial rewards to come out of that will be in excess $27b dollars that is how much the Korean/Japan economy received with its world cup odyssey.

As for you and Redb saying I have a chip on my shoulder is that not the pot calling the kettle black.. anyhow stupid argument to get into as I have played Aussie Rules socially with work associates when I was invited to join them on a number of BBQ social game outings in Centennial Park as a young handsome agile young man and had a wonderful time many years long, long ago, then to a number of Sth Melb FTC v Carlton FTC matches and others at the SCG with them; so no I have no chip on my shoulder except for that mongrel Dicky Pratt who sent my Amcor share portfolio to nose dive with no sign of recovery in sight.

So, when it comes to the code of Aussie Rules, yes I have had my favourite Aussie Rules teams as I have reiterated to you about; enjoyed the entertainment as well..Therefore it’s only the Aussie Rule extremists or Jihadists who continually beat Football supporters around the head about their game with little or no respect for it.. With continued accusations of being unreasonable towards the Aussie Rules fraternity. No comrade, it is you and Redb who have the chip on your shoulders; when you continually accuse other football supporters of bias.

As I have seen you continually do for almost two years and only ever admitting to going to one Football match ever; so I would say you are the myopic insular one eyed supporter definitely not me..

Now you are accusing RL derailing the Nth Melbourne’s push up on the Gold Coast when it was Nth Melb stuffing everyone around and quite frankly how on earth you could ever expect a government to out lay that sort of cash in a Rugby League town.. Come on Michael, that would be political suicide and it was one of your own, Mayor Ron Clarke, who had said there will be no money made available for a refurbishment of Carrara stadium, to the tune of $150-$250m redevelopment, just for a 7 home games season.. And the incoming premier Anna Bligh has told Demetriou to find the money yourselves as the Government needed to spend the monies on hospital and medical infrastructure; as I know how much you are concerned with those sorts of issues in Melbourne..

I can’t see why you would assume that there is a Rugby league conspiracy on the Gold Coast towards Nth Melbourne relocation, especially when you and the real 5000 members did not wanted to have it happen.. Of course we still have the Southport sharks waiting for some sort of signal from Andrew to give them the nod and I would support that of course..

All this typing is hurting my wrists.. I shall never get my leg breaks to work again at this rate…

~~~~~~~
KB

Redb said  | April 18th 2008 @ 8:00pm | Report comment

KB,

i’ve been to heaps of football games I went to a world football game 5 months ago, when was the last time you went to an Australian football game? Is it relevant with TV now?

You dont come across as a fan or appreciate Australian football that’s all.

Redb

Norm said  | April 19th 2008 @ 1:22pm | Report comment

KB
I hope the ladies at the Currumbin RSL Auxiliary still respect you in the morning………

Koala Bear said  | April 19th 2008 @ 5:47pm | Report comment

Norm,
It’s a tough gig but someone has to do it…

Forgetmenot,
I understand where you are coming from.. Congratulations on the choice of your blog name I get the rationale and reasoning behind it now… (I hope this is short enough for you to read now..?)

~~~~~
KB

Koala Bear said  | April 19th 2008 @ 6:13pm | Report comment

Midfielder wrote: Ghandi once said “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they attack you, then you win.” Sorry opening line in previos post should read ……………… As we in know football is just as much a part of the Australian fabric as AFL, Union and League, with a long history in Australia. In time it will come out and JW words will come true.

Midfielder,
Better late than never; I was always a fan of Malcolm X and his view on what he believed in.. couldn’t condone the violence side of his activities and thought there must be a better way to achieve equality in live without taking up the sword.. Then came Nelson Mandela and Dr Martin Luther King.. All great men in there own right.. Loved your Ghandi quote..

Interesting developments in Victoria with the Melbourne Victory securing games with the likes of Juventus.. The signs of the future.. Where as we use to have a Socceroos XI up against such opposition.. Now we are putting club sides up against them, the way it was meant to be..

One for Dave I have noticed that the Big V is missing on the jersey in the ACL matches that I have noticed on the Fox hi-lights… Why is this so? Or should I say I thought the big V was sacrament in Victoria. I hope this not another dirty trick of the Aussie Rules to push Football back in Victoria with their State Aussie Rules team claiming exclusive rights..??

~~~~~~
KB

Forgetmenot said  | April 19th 2008 @ 7:50pm | Report comment

While the Big V is used to represent Victoria in many sports, it was started by the Victorian representative football team when playing against state sides like South Australia.
In my opinion, melbourne victory attempted to capitalise on the lack of state origin in the AFL and try to harness peoples passion for their state through soccer. With the All Stars game and increases calls from the football community to bring back SoO it is probably just a marketing decision from the melbourne victory management.

Forgetmenot said  | April 19th 2008 @ 9:19pm | Report comment

I didnt mention the VFL. I was saying that it is probably a wise marketing decision for melbourne victory to disassociate themselves with the Big V for now, while AFL SoO is being discussed in such large amounts. They may also be trying to create a shirt that appeals to the Asian market more. Melbourne victory also have the V in their logo as well.
As a point related to the VFL. There is still SoO at state level in football still.

The Substitute said  | April 19th 2008 @ 10:31pm | Report comment

Dave & KB,
I know that the AFC have certain restrictions on where logos/numbers can be placed and perhaps the big v simply couldn’t fit in with those requirements. The other clubs in the ACL (Adelaide this year and Sydney last year) have also altered their jerseys for the tournament for reasons beyond AFC guidelines (i.e. sell more tops).

I have also heard from the club they wanted the big V from season one, but Reebok couldn’t make it work with their designs.

But your certainly right, if it was the club’s decision then that was a pretty bad call. It is bad enough the two trophies won by the club were done so without the big V, and you do want to associate those sort of things with success to make them work long term.

westy said  | April 19th 2008 @ 11:29pm | Report comment

Redb…..You must understand the rugby boys they play a class game even today , O’Neill’s ” the big end of town ” If it had not been for those League evangelists in 1908 the Victorian science would have over taken NSW and QLD. This has some historical basis. Rugby was never in a position to cope with professinal Aussie rules. League provided a protective barrier to Rugby and it survived in its own elitist world as the game played by all dead people in in heaven . As related games league never set out to destroy rugby, indeed over time league raided their ranks and currently vice versa. Rugby’s class game has never been better exemplified then with AFL . For 100 years the private schools have banned / refused there boys playing in any inter school rugby league or even touch competitions so their boys would not have to mix or play with the plebs. The Sydney Swans is a class based team, not by intent but as a consequence of their marketing. This has resonated with private schools and they now have an AFL competition. Basically to be crass the Leaguies will resist AFL expansion the rugby boys will take it up the arse. Sorry nothing wrong with this. Do not start in and assume I hate AFL. I am Simply letting you know how NSWRU operate.They assume that because you can play overseas everything will be okay. The Leaguies get up your nose because they do not accept some AFL hype. They may not be as polite or more direct but they remind me very much of most passionate AFL and football supporters.

Forgetmenot said  | April 20th 2008 @ 11:43am | Report comment

So are RedB and Westy basically saying that neither league nor union will bring the two classes of Sydney together, but football and soccer are the ones who have that chance?

Forgetmenot said  | April 20th 2008 @ 11:55am | Report comment

Foxsports is trying to become the source for sport and indeed the source for all soccer in Australia. But it would be a very smart decision on Fox’s part to give an A-league game to Nine.
The main problem for channel nine is the cricket though, and especially when the Ashes are on. Channel Seven will no doubt want to keep the AFL rights along with Channel Ten, thereby taking money off both of them. What is interesting though is how much money Foxsports will be willing to pay for all the different sports. Foxsports will probably want to build soccer up, as there is no way that the FTA channels will show all the leagues, and if soccer becomes big, then so does Foxsports. But then again, they need to be able to expose people to soccer, and the only way they can do this is by getting the rights for AFL and NRL.

Does anyone know how many Ashes there will be from 2013 to 2018?

Forgetmenot said  | April 20th 2008 @ 12:38pm | Report comment

IMO ODI’s will still be a major force, added to the very fast growing and appealing 20/20, even though they will not have the tri-series any longer. And as for Test Cricket, as sporty as Australians are, not everyone will want to watch/listen to test cricket all day, and then watch soccer on tv, and then do it again the next day.
That is a good analysis, and i am glad you placed the 2% hardcore figure in their, because channel 9 will not want to give a-league a prime time spot if the ratings arent there to begin with.
With your 50/50 analysis of the Australian population, i believe this is what the AFL is countering by getting new teams in Western Sydney and the Gold Coast. They are building up their television audience just as soccer is currently trying to do as well.

For the surveys:
75% could just mean people who have a team rather than follow it. I know plenty of people who go for the Swans in football, but dont know anything about them. And same for NRL.
50% of people going to an AFL / NRL match in the previous season is actually quite low considering most games are in capital cities. I would be concerned if it was about 75%.
Do you have a link to these figures (no that i doubt you, id just like to analyse them further)?

Not a pot shot at soccer, but i believe that soccer is in the phase of being a fashion. It is up to the FFA to ensure that it goes beyond a fashion.

Midfielder said  | April 20th 2008 @ 12:59pm | Report comment

Forgetmenot

They were figures quoted in the press in the early stages of Hal 2, and sorry do not have a link.

Frank Lowy’s marketing of the A-League has been to say let football be you number two sport. Thus watch Collingwood in winter and Victory in summer, Parramatta in winter and Sydney FC in summer. Also play in summer with not many head to head clashes with either the AFL or NRL. Frank’s logic was there are people who watch sport and people who don’t. Given the AFL, NRL & Union had most of the people who loved sport and he could not change their preferance. Football by playing at a different time (summer not winter) needed a relatively small percentage of people not to change codes but accept and watch football.

Very clever as I see it both AFL & NRL are therefore in no way threaten by Football ……… aside from bragging rights prehaps.

Forgetmenot what FL has done in affect is say football is not a threat to AFL re your quote of I would be concerned if the 50% was higher actually what it does do is cement your place in the southern states. He is saying I will help your game

To explain the Gold Coast Tiatins want the GC Galaxy to be up and running ASAP and share their ground as it is hard for sports lovers to have three teams so if you rust them onto NRL & Football then there is little room for a third meaning AFL , thus the race to get their. So if AFL helped football in SA & WA they would lock out the NRL in those areas.

Midfielder said  | April 20th 2008 @ 1:21pm | Report comment

Towser

I love SBS and am forever thankfull for being there. However to even compare SBS & Nine ability to create a general interest in a sport shows a lack of logic.

Football was once by and large by its own makings a small media sport in Australia, SBS were a big player in a very small pond, and thank God they were there. Neverless football has moved on in Australia agian by and large by its own makings. to be much bigger and sadley SBS is smaller now i.e. foxs have most of the broadcasting rights. SBS I think at times have trouble adjusting to this but even the great JW said the game had to go to the commercial FTA networks.

Foxs …………. please please …………….. this is the same company that was prepared to destroy RL to win a pay TV war and still is the main obsticale to NRL expanision ……………. Foxs are concerned about increasing shareholder wealth nothing else.

Its just they were the first to see the potential of football hopefully they will let us expand to FTA before the 2013.

MY comments about FTA and football is football only needs 7.5 % of the population to watch to become a major or maybe the major media player. But to reach that 7.5% it needs some AFL, NRL & Union people to watch and so far everything says that is happening.

Forgetmenot said  | April 20th 2008 @ 9:43pm | Report comment

Whoa a lot of reading.

Midfielder,
First. I think your post was basically saying that soccer is not a threat to football. However if it wants the number 2 position in each state then it is. The AFL has pretty much said it wants to have a presence in Sydney, and be number 2 if not 1 on the Gold Coast. Any code which has presence in all areas could receive the larger tv deals. I dont think that the AFL would work with soccer in WA, SA, or TAS because in those areas league will never catch on. Soccer because of its global appeal has the potential to, and hence the AFL will not help them.

Towser,
Cricket always struggles in ratings against the sub-continent teams, and added to Australias dominance in recent times,it makes for pretty poor ratings. Cricket is also a game where a majority of people listen on the radio. Wait until 20/20 domestic leagues kick in, and when the Ashes are on and we will see how soccer rates relative.
I completely agree with your piece about the soccer WC. I think that if Australia does not make the South Africa one, then soccer in Aust will go back to 2002 or 1998. Most people i know watched it, some of them hard core soccer fans, most not. Almost all of them do not watch a-league or follow it in any way.
I somehow agree that soccer may suffer alot on FTA, particularly from the need for advertisements. It works on SBS as they are not required to make a profit. Isnt soccer in england all on pay tv?

Redb said  | April 21st 2008 @ 8:40am | Report comment

Midfielder,

Agrre with most of what you have said except the TV ratings for NRl over AFL. This is an anomaly of the 2007 GF nothing more. The AFL throughout the season out rates the NRL, games are not even shown in Melb Adel and Perth, only the GF. The Nrl has dominate ratings in NSw and QLD, but he AFL has dominate ratings in VIC SA & WA with a niche in NSW and QLD. Its that niche that puts the NRL in the shade other than the one off benefit of Melb storm being in the GF. Compare the ratings for when the Swans made the AFL GF to the NRL. Pay Tv ratings are not a true barometer of week in week out TV ratings as most of the best AFL games are on free to air and there is far less penetration of pay tv in AFL markets.

Redb

Joe FC said  | April 21st 2008 @ 6:12pm | Report comment

Midfielder
I saw same item on SBS & was pleasently surprised at A-League exposure in Singapore. Can only be good.

Koala Bear said  | April 21st 2008 @ 7:47pm | Report comment

Forgetmenot said | April 18th 2008 @ 7:50pm (3 days ago)

Forgetmenot,
I actuarially wrote this piece a day ago but in the end I lost track of time and had to go, however, a thought from a Football perspective to a Aussie Rules supporter in regard to your question to me about the Melb and Nth Melbourne Aussie Rules clubs to merging.

I shall now put my 2 cents worth in, with the number of Aussie Rules teams who represent Victoria. So, yes everyone agrees; that there are too many Melbourne teams. So I am suggesting that Melbourne should only have 4 teams and 2 in Geelong in the AFL competition and the others drop down to the second tier VFL with a promotion and relegation for Melbourne teams to get back into the AFL .. That way the less competitive teams in Melbourne have a reasonable chance to rebuild their resources and vigour to challenge to regain promotion, with the 5th and 6th last finishing in Melbourne and Geelong. Play off with the winner of the VPL from with a best out of 3 games to be promoted to AFL and the loser to be relegated to VFL (after the GF or in unison of.) similar to EPL Football.

Other wise relocate; although I hate the thought of that… and I hate merges.. Anyhow I would be interested to know how Aussie Rules folk view a promotion and regulation format and how it would work….

~~~~~~
KB

Redb said  | April 22nd 2008 @ 8:17am | Report comment

KB,

6 Melb and 1 Geelong is probably about right for the next 25 - 50 years . Relegation won’t work in VFL/AFL we dont have the population - 5M in Vic versus what 80M in the UK?

re Sydney are AC milan - please explain?. Not a bad game Sydney V Geelong - good intensity.

Redb

Redb said  | April 22nd 2008 @ 11:02am | Report comment

KB,

There nees to be a degree of possession in AFL, all good teams can play keepings off, but what most supporters dislike are two things: 1. Going backwards or more than one or two possessions and 2. Creating stoppages (ball ups).

If you look at Geelong and they are squeezed a little on their home ground compared to the wide expanses of the MCG, they back themselves with ‘play on’ footy. Yes they maybe kicking to 50/50 contests at times, but they believe they will win those more often than not. Generally they will look for a leading player who runs to space and that is what happened to the Swans in the second half of the last qtr, Geelong found space and blew them away in ten minutes.

Some of the tackling early in the last qtr by both sides was fantastic with possession cosntantly changing, players getting the pill and getting hammered and having to release. good hard footy.

Redb

Koala Bear said  | April 22nd 2008 @ 1:04pm | Report comment

Forgetmenot wrote: Paul Roos watches alot of American Football. He says that he gets a alot of new tactics from there. I have also been wondering whether their tactics are deliberately slowing everything down to make the game more appealing to the rugby league/union type people.

Your can’t be serious Grid Iron..? is no where near the likes of Aussie Rules.. I can’t see anything in Grid Iron that would help Aussie Rules.. Nah, I would say he has been watching a lot of EPL or UCL and the likes of Arsenal, Man U, or Chelsea FC and more than likely AC Milan. Those tactics are just like an European Football team trying to keep possession… Don’t make me laugh son… good try..!

~~~~~~~
KB

Koala Bear said  | April 22nd 2008 @ 2:33pm | Report comment

There nees to be a degree of possession in AFL, all good teams can play keepings off, but what most supporters dislike are two things: 1. Going backwards or more than one or two possessions and 2. Creating stoppages (ball ups).

Redb,
I would agree that most Aussie Rules supporters today and old commentators would like to go back to the 70’s. But those days are definitely dead.. and the new game in all codes of football is possession football.. Roos is the new breed and has worked out how to apply it.. 50/50 up the corridor is old fashion football as the defender always spoils the attempted mark as you would know less and less defenders try to compete in taking the mark with a full forward only a few of the modern era can hold their ground and take the contested mark..

From my observations as a Football supporter the full forward has to make a lead to win the mark in the 50 zone so I understand fully what Roos and (Rodney Eades) were on about ie to work it up field retain possession as near to the 50 zone as possible and watch and deliver to the leading forward.

Geelong and most others I have seen are doing the same not to the degree of Sydney as I see it, but the change is in the wind.. Aussie Rules supporters need to accept the change if they want to be successful as the English FA have a manager Cappello an Italian Football manager trying to change the English way of playing Football.. many English don’t like it but if you want to win a World Cup you have to change..

I would bet 70’s Aussie Rules teams would not compete with today’s possession minded teams of today.. Even Carlton hay days.. or Sheedies teams..

~~~~~~
KB

Redb said  | April 22nd 2008 @ 2:49pm | Report comment

KB,

Never said i wanted to go to back to the 70s. I restricted my comments to the disliked facets of play. most good AFL teams play to a leading player so that is not a 50/50 contest as the foward sprints to space leaving the defender in their trail.

What has happened now in footy is going past the Swans strategies its ‘play on’ footy, move the ball before the other team has time to flood. The Swans were blown away in the first qtr, tightened up in the 2nd and 3rd, but simply cound’t say with the Cats when they put the foot down. Some teams, Essendon included, are ramping up the pace, its not about 50/50 contests, its about constant speed.

I agree possession footy is more common that it was, but it is far more improtant to make good decisions and pick put a player to pass to without putting them under too much pressure. The best teams execute this better than the lesser teams.

Redb

Koala Bear said  | April 22nd 2008 @ 7:31pm | Report comment

Redb,
one would expect Geelong would eventually run over Sydney as they were short of a few of their star players and playing at skill stadium. Also squandered a few easy chances in the first qtr very early on in the piece and let Geelong run free to much and they had to play catch up football; which in any code is always going to tier the midfield in the last qtr.. So not so surprising to me. But they closed the gap in the 3rd holding on to the ball possession and better marking.. Its not always about speed for me its about possession and controlling the tempo of the game to slow then to fast when you want and to slow the game down when you are not in possession.. But Gary Ablett jnr. really dominated. So much of him retiring last year to go surfing with his mates.. … Next discussion we shall discuss Sydney FC v Melbourne Victory FC.. If we are not insulting one another..

~~~~~~
KB

Midfielder said  | April 22nd 2008 @ 8:27pm | Report comment

Forgetmenot

Among other things football too would consider itself “a major part of Australian communities” .

However I disagree with you ……….. and in a way feel sorry for you ………. if …………. you don’t have enough faith in your sports ability to hold its ground and would wish other sports to fail so AFL can remain as it is now. My point has not changed people who like sport will watch both, ……… others will stay with one ………… others will look to their sport like a cult.

Me I like football …………. but won’t stop me going to league, rugby or an AFL game, ………. sounds like you would rather die than say anything nice about any other code ……….. its OK I understand ………. but TBH I cannot hold a view that a person chosen sport must be number one and wish harm on others …………. the same as when AFL chiefs clapped and cheered when Australia failed to make world cups. Good Aussies those guys.

I rarely comment on other sports and believe football has caused many of its past problems and needs to earn rather than demand respect …………… however I cannot help but feel you are concerned by the Man U / Arsenal article below. I realise its not even an Australian league ……….. but like the 20 / 20 its international and if you are worried about football taking your best …. look at cricket this 20 / 20 is changing the world of sport and is the first time I have ever seen a sport that has the potential to go global very quickly. Many a young strapper will be lost to all sports to play in I think the many future 20 / 20 leagues around the world.

The extraordinary globalisation of the Premier League could make English football the first world sport to earn more money from their supporters abroad than at home …………. An estimated worldwide audience of one billion watched Manchester United play Arsenal on Saturday

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2007/11/06/sfnfro106.xml

Look at the NRL in this regard to onsell to NZ & PNG there sport.

Midfielder said  | April 22nd 2008 @ 8:33pm | Report comment

Redb

Opps and sorry I said it would be less than 30 sec IMO. If the 30 sec is right I get the JW bottle I mentioned.

Forgetmenot said  | April 22nd 2008 @ 8:40pm | Report comment

If you are in front of goal…it is 30 seconds.. Not sure about on the ground though.

Midfielder said  | April 22nd 2008 @ 9:20pm | Report comment

Redb & Forgetmenot

Thanks Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr the pleasure of proving some know all wrong ……… I will think of you both on Sunday at the BBQ and drink you health.

I feel good right now ……………… thanks heaps ……………

Michael C said  | April 22nd 2008 @ 10:33pm | Report comment

Been home sick today -

AFL - ideally 30 seconds allowed for a fellow having a shot on goal - - did lead once to an umpy suggesting a fellow was too far out and was effectively taking a lend of him.
Around the ground - - a short 10 seconds I think it might be, but, don’t make a sideways movement, the umpy will hurry you up should you blink.
Syd vs Geel - - that was a very close 7 goal loss - - 10 mins left, Jarred Moore has a shot that could’ve made it a 5 pt ball game - - alas, he misses, Geeel get the next goal and the next and it’s game over - then, sadly for the Swans, those last 3 blew out the scores.
Nth vs Coll on Sat night, a lot of what KB would love - possession style, control etc - - but, I found it pretty dull as mostly were just awaited the mistake and the turn over - - - because, we MUST remember, the oval shaped ground means that the slower you go forward the easier for the opposition to block your space - you then get a lot of cheap possession outside your forward 50 - -

- - finally, come the last 1/4 and a bit, the game tempo picks up, ball movement, run and risk taking increase - the crowd get’s engaged - and a cracker finish with the ball movement up forward quick enough that the crumbers are given a bit of space to work their magic - - Lindsay Thomas, about 1 kick before then, becomes effectively the match winner.

Paul Roos -

not just spending time in US post retirement - - he was often, I think even in the Fitzroy days - during the Brownlow - on a satellite link from LA or whereever - - I think he married a US lady. There’s a nice story about him catching up with Brett Stephens (former Fitz player and fitness man for Pete Sampras) - and Sampras was there and I gather that Roos successfully negotiated a single point or something like that.

Anyway - - the NRL punters - strangely enough - given they didn’t really know much about drop punts beyond Aussies kickers using that ‘backward spinning kick’ - - however, the Yanks have such a technical break down on the punters kick - - among other things - there’s the ability to leverage there.

Michael C said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 8:55am | Report comment

btw - Paul Roos US irony - - recruited from a junior club around Doncater in Eastern Melb called Beverley Hills.

Norm -

“If you mean aussie rules then there are plenty of born & bred Qldrs & NSWmen doing the same.”

however, many Qldrs and NSWmen do it out of sheer bloody mindedness and petty interstate rivalry……

Koala Bear said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 9:20am | Report comment

Michael C,
I know this might be a difficult question, but is forgetmenot your love child and someone you prefer to forget…?

~~~~~
KB

Koala Bear said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 10:48am | Report comment

Michael C,
Ah, but yes, when I was a supporter of Carlton FTC until that mongrel Dicky Pratt with his price fixing activities with his coheres (they all should be behind bars) that sent my share port folio to nose dive with no sign of recovery insight. We had a player of the name of Salvertini (sp) a back who put thru record numbers of 1pters from opposition attackers trying to score from just inside the 50 zone; he regularly managed to touch the “Thing” before it crossed the line. Therefore as it is an equal equivalent to a 1pt goal in Football. I say to you; is that not an own goal in your code as hands and feet in the Foot-Thing game are used to score points.. I saw him play once at the SCG, I think he put thru 7 own goals quite a tally in one game is it not…??

Also as I look back to those shady days I sort of remember accusations made against him as to match fixing..Hmmm..!

btw: I’m still waiting on a link to the 1958 Melbourne hand written rules… The court is becoming impatient comrade..

~~~~~~
KB

Koala Bear said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 11:20am | Report comment

Towser,
In a landslide… But Sydney FC will soon be the best in the country…

~~~~~~~
KB

Dave said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 4:42pm | Report comment

Towser

As the original blogger l will state my belief again that MV are the 8th biggest team (out of the 12 professional ‘football code’clubs) in Melb. So yes all the way. Psst don’t tell Michael C that his beloved (100 plus yr old) Nth Melbourne have been usurped by a 3 year old upstart

KB
I had so much admiration for you until… “But Sydney FC will soon be the best in the country”. IMO AFL have more chance of becoming mainstream in… (insert any overseas country now) than SFC have of being bigger than the mighty VICTORY

Dave said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 5:27pm | Report comment

Midfielder

Couldn’t agree more. They have potential (hate the word but 33,000 vs MV Rd 21 2008!!!) but there are obviously issues that we melb folk cannot see or understand.
MV basically started out with cleanskins running the show (yes Michael C including some of your AFL folk). There were no obvious links or tieins to anyone from past efforts. I certainly wouldn’t have been interested if that wasn’t the case. There had to be, at least in perception, that this was a new start…from what l’ve heard maybe not the case at SFC. To be honest too difficult from down here to know what the real story is…should l care?? As a fan of SFC’s biggest rival no…however as a supporter of football (HAL) in its infancy l have to care. If SFC, or MV, are not doing well off the field then all is not well and action needs to be taken. Nothing would please me more than for MV to stuff SFC 5-0 (ahhh the good ol days) but if it means SFC will struggle to get 10,000 at their next game…You know what l mean.

Midfielder said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 7:34pm | Report comment

Dave

Good news on the ticket sales.

On the Choppers ………… they started off with independent people ……… but maybe they just hired dip sticks.

They have replaced the dip sticks ………… with old NSL people who held positions of leadership in the very failed and flawed system that was old soccer…………. have they chosen the right people …………. or replaced ………. dip sticks ……….. with were never capable people. Time will tell next year I guess, but boy you hope they got it right.

Maybe the shadow of FL over hangs the place and mangers are making decisions they think will appeal to Frank rather than what is good for the Choppers. SBS could help a bit as well aside from Hal 1, and for a time when Branko was there, - they have talked of the Choppers as hopeless. Sydney while it has many who play and follow football, many nay most perfer European leagues. SBS also often talk about how much better the European leagues are …………. (as if anyone needed to be told) in fact the thread I put in about the FOOTBALL TIPS today was in part aimed at SBS.

However SBS aside given the players and the amount of support in Sydney ……….. the Choppers management should hang their heads in shame for under 20, 000 crowds IMO. Some how the Choppers need to connect with the football family and to date have not been as good as they should have at it.

Midfielder said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 9:59pm | Report comment

KB

I hope you are right time will tell …………… BTW its not Kossie but the management team behind the Choppers that concerns me, old in age soccer people from a dark past ……. one hopes they were not part of the problem back then ….. just caught in something they could not control.

TBH KB they do not enjoy my confidence, that said I hope they are very successful and prove me wrong. On the Central Coast (with no history and in a league heartland) with a population of 250, 000 plus drawing from around Hornsby 13 K per match………. Choppers with 4.5 million 16 K per match gotta be worried about that given the 165, 000 players and nothing I have seen to date including today makes me feel they are trying to reach me.

I sit on a committe of a local park 700 player club within 15 Kls of Moore Park and in four years have not heard one word from the Choppers yet we have train lines and buses direct to central , within 20 meters of our grounds………… Yet we hear a fair bit from the Mariners ………

So I hope you are right KB for football sake.

Forgetmenot said  | April 24th 2008 @ 4:58pm | Report comment

A lot of water has passed under the bridge since i last posted. Had a heap to do in the last few days.
I think a few people wanted me to explain:

“You cannot tell me that soccer did not place measures when the NFL started NFL Europa”
Really Forgetmenot - what were they & how are they different to anything the AFL has done?

What any code would do, follow the NFL around schools that they visit and run soccer clinics at them. They would also have produced news stories whenever the NFL had big ones. Quite simple business really.

“I feel that many people coming to Australia are too quick to dismiss football”
If you mean aussie rules then there are plenty of born & bred Qldrs & NSWmen doing the same.

QLDers and New South Welshman, have a prejedice towards football passed down through the generations.
A lot of people from overseas stay in small communites of their previous country and continue to live the lifestyle they used to live, even though they are now permanently living in Aust. A lot them make no attempt at all to assimilate into Australian society, and many cant speak english after 5 years here.

Michael C said  | April 24th 2008 @ 5:18pm | Report comment

KB -

MVFC vs Juve - -

should be a sell out - - but, akin to the Beckham game vs SFC - - more so because of the opposition than the ‘home team’. I guess one test is in 10 years time - how will the balance of that be.

For now - obviously, if it’s a good quality Juve team, then MVFC MUST put on a good show to ‘win over’ the demographic in attendance that will represent much of the latent ’soccer’ fraternity - - (whether or not they are Carlton members - - ulitmately, MVFC SHOULD be drawing 40K or 35K or whatever it will take to fill the new ground - every fortnight - that they play at home). And, for MVFC - - it’s super critical that they do this now rather than when a 2nd Melb club comes on line - - because, those who haven’t ’signed on with the MVFC franchise may be biding their time for Box number 2 - - this might be the single window of opportunity for MVFC to win them over?????

Forgetmenot said  | April 24th 2008 @ 5:45pm | Report comment

Norm,

I know that is why Victorians, Tasmanians, Western Australians, and South Australians all have that same attitude towards league.
It is not just up to the AFL to provide football, it is up to the immigrants to try and assimilate into our culture. We cannot show them Australia if they are insistent on living the British lifestyle in Australia.
If you have been on any Australian soccer forums lately you will see that they laugh at Australians and call us bogans. They call football ‘boganball’ and ‘tardball’ and speak of a conquest of Australia.
And no im not a sympathiser of Pauline Hanson but i do believe some of her ideas are correct (not many though).

Koala Bear said  | April 24th 2008 @ 5:52pm | Report comment

Forgetmenot,
give my regards to your mother Pauline when she gets out of jail…

~~~~~~
KB

Dave said  | April 24th 2008 @ 6:04pm | Report comment

KB
Dont rub it in!!! Pretty ordinary performance and please don’t mention EM!!! You have the special one and we have…the Scottish One

Michael C
Give football a generation or so more to grow and hey, MV vs SFC may need to be moved to the ‘G’. (least football hasn’t jumped on the coat tails of a Public Holiday to make an occassion! My recollections are that ANZAC Day has always been a significant and special day. AFL hasn’t added anything to its meaning for me - despite what Ch 10 try to tell me)

Koala Bear said  | April 24th 2008 @ 6:10pm | Report comment

Michael C,
you rascal..! you should use more condoms more often… Surly you don’t doubt me when I say SFC are the 7th largest club in Australia when Sydney have 5 million members.?. Yes unfinancial at present but engaged in spirit.. 85k at a the ANZ stadium thousands left standing outside and it was just a trial match… proof enough comrade..

~~~~~~~
KB

Koala Bear said  | April 24th 2008 @ 6:43pm | Report comment

Dave and who ever else out there,
sorry I just had to eat some wog food (spaghetti bolognese) damn wife she can’t read what’s on those shelves in the super market..

Anzac day all due respect to the fallen.. But why is it always an Australian who receives the Anzac Medal.. I know some Kiwis who think Aussies are racist and they say the Anzac game at the MCG should be turned over to Rugby Union lads and give an All Black a decent chance to winning the medal… or indeed why not an international Football match or a Rugby League match… Now that would be a good idea.. Tho Rugby would be fairer of course… Aussie Rules is so myopic and insular.. on a sacred day like that to play.. who is playing anyway…??

~~~~~~
KB

Midfielder said  | April 24th 2008 @ 7:51pm | Report comment

KB

Mariner’s don’t change …………. actually I go back further when they were Northern Spirit at NSO ……. before that and still playing and go to the odd game …………. Blacktown Demons …………..

No KB I just what the Choppers to live up to somewhere near their potential …………….. and to date ………….. management have not been able to deliver …………..

If you ever can get down south of Bryon come to Bluetounge and have a look inside the Central Coast Leagues club ….. it is now a football club in all but name ………….. Kendel bar just covered in Mariner photos shirts colours ……… in the center of the club models (like in a shop windows) dressed in Mariner gear both home / away shirts, stuff all over the club. Yes I am talking about a leagues club ……….. on match nights many of the staff dressed in Mariners gear. The street between the club and blurtounge just taken over by sellers of football gear ……….. took an old league mate along …………… he could not believe it. All the local media are there street interviews with radio, NBN TV all over the place, local papers giving away stuff. Many of the shops in the main street of Gosford are covered in Mariner colours and its spreading to Newcastle as well, not for Mariners but for the Jets ………… huge local match see web link by Mariners about newcastle home page all good stuff http://thesquadron.net/

So get up the management of the Choppers KB get to move to Parramatta would be good start.

Forgetmenot said  | April 24th 2008 @ 8:26pm | Report comment

Koala Bear,

I dont know what you are trying to do now. Are you trying to make me angry, or laugh?

Also the MCG is the spiritual home of football, not league, union or soccer. They play football there because that is what the diggers would want to see.
There is an ANZACleague test between Australia and New Zealand as well, not always on ANZAC day. Perhaps soccer should do the alternate of league, and hold a friendly in the country not hosting the league game. Dont expect a big digger crowd though.

Michael C said  | April 25th 2008 @ 8:36am | Report comment

Dave -

‘jumping on the coat tails of a public holiday’……

The fans love it. Number one. it’s a match sold out months in advance. And the tradition of the day is adhered to and respected and given the spotlight to get the message to the new generation - - of which I presume you are not a member - therefore, I wouldn’t expect it to add to your day - - especially since you seem as though you sit there and lament that you’re not watching a game of soccer.

Tough.

Let soccer put 150 years into melbourne, and into the MCG week in week out - - otherwise, sit still in quiet and dream on.

btw - MVFC vs SFc - as I’ve advocated - should be a regular fixture on Cup day eve. It would be a sell out - - it would make immense sense.

Just like the HAL profited by fixturing relative to NYE public holidays - - the only reason Ade Utd drew 25K was the timing and playing a 1 off game at Adelaide Oval - - oh dear, how cynical…..

maybe it’s just smart.

So - - are you implying soccer administrators still are not smart???

Dave said  | April 25th 2008 @ 10:45am | Report comment

Michael C

You said a week ago
“the fact that the new rectangular stadium, worth over $300m - to be gifted effectively to 2 clubs in RL and HAL that represent a sum total of about 30K members and regular combined fortnightly patronage of about 35K - - - and not even worring about the ongoing benefits of a open door ’stadium deal’ via not dealing with private owners - - - you somehow think that ever $30m for state funds to 10 AFL clubs representing weekly attendance of lets say 200K and membership of lets say 330K - - - how do you work those sums to be fair - - - by any reasonable math, this new rectangular stadium in Melb is premature and would be vastly better spent on a rail bridge duplication of Clifton Hill, or a line extension to South Morang, or electrification to Sunbury or a public hospital at Phillip Island or………”

Poor old AFL they don’t get any gov’t free kicks…oops not according to the Queensland Sports Minister Judy Spence who said yesterday in The Age article ÁFL’s Coast bid hits road block’ “Queensland Sports Minister Judy Spence yesterday released a strongly worded statement saying the state government expected the AFL to honour the agreement following a meeting with chief executive Andrew Demetriou.

Spence’s statement said that the State Government redeveloped the Gabba at a cost of $182 million to accommodate the relocation of the then-Brisbane Bears from Carrara.

That’s $182 big ones!!!! Some free kick and no doubt they’ll be looking for same on the GC and WS. See Michael C when you’re a small fish in a foreign land it’s ok to receive some help… just don’t bag others for doing same!

Michael C said  | April 25th 2008 @ 1:17pm | Report comment

Dave -

footy on Anzac day has been going on for a tad longer than accusations of cynical money making excercise - - so, what came first??

You simply have a negative perspective which blinds your thinking.

However - the presentation and promotion by Channel 10 from a TV marketing perspective……that’s another issue altogether.

btw - without Fox - I’m limited at present to late night IPL…….which is a bit too late. So - for the time being, AFL and perhaps VFL is all the sport I can watch. Feel sorry for me if you wish. I’m fine with it; however.

btw - living in Melbourne, I don’t mind indulging a good proportion of the time in the WORLD THAT DOES revolve around Melbourne. What’s wrong with that? It’s where I live. It’s called ‘community’ - - without which, we as humans are lesser beings. I’ve grown up in a small country town that used to have a PS (students numbering less than 10 by the end) - - a town too small to sustain any sporting clubs/teams - - but, we had community - - because, we weren’t all focussing ourselves purely on the ‘greater global’ conscience. Acknowledge it, fine, be aware of it, fine - - but, live your life where you live.

—–

re govt ‘gifts’ - -

The GABBA is firstly a cricket oval and a shared facility NOT handed over lock stock and barrel to the AFL. It - as you reference - is a project with major strings attached. Now - if you might suggest that it has been money wasted? Expenditure not warranted? Did not the QCA deserve upgraded facilities too?

However - - my comments were specifically on the Victorian basis - - I thought that was pretty clear - - I contained my AFL membership/patronage relativity to the Victorian context - - you’ve decided to expand upon this - -

Compare then the Suncorp stadium vs the Gabba and Robina stadium vs Cararra…….the squares have it.

btw - my main gripe as mentioned has been around the ON GOING situation - - the fact that the new Melb squared stadium does not require negotiated deals with private operators - - this can see a $250K-$500K benefit per match - for the competiting clubs. This is the greater gift relative to the ‘ongoing legacy’ the AFL has with Docklands - -

now - - I have absolutely no idea what the stadium deals are at the Gabba - - or Robina - - or Suncorp - -

However, in the Vic context - the AFL certainly facilitated the Docklands stadium project going ahead - as desired by the Govt - - (some still falsely claim they hijacked the project, I think KB is yet to be convinced) - - at any rate, the Govt probably owes the AFL a bit.

btw - because I recognise the global clout of FIFA and the ‘world game’ - - I find it hard to swallow lines such as “you’re a small fish in a foreign land it’s ok to receive some help… just don’t bag others for doing same” - - - oh dear, bleeding heart soccer folk, it’s been so hard being a small ‘player’……..so, I’m meant to believe that on the one hand, whilst on the other we get fed the line about the biggest participation sport in the land……..just - - how small is the fish? and, how much help is it going to con out of govts before it learns to engage it’s own latent support, generate it’s own sustainable revenue streams and help itself a bit??

Dave said  | April 25th 2008 @ 2:30pm | Report comment

Michael C

In response;
1. I can assure you the cynical money making exercise didn’t come first
2.Negative thinking is towards hysterical and inappropritae media coverage of said match, not the commemoration
3. Presumably AFL comfortable with media coverage including ch 10 so it is all tied in together
4. Fox gives some choice which doesn’t always happen on FTA here, don’t feel sorry for you as at least you save $60 per month
5. Would expand on my responses but l need to get out into the community and indulge (most people l know are AFL and so its important to keep a perspective) Thanks for the advice anyway
6. Re Govt gifts - sorry thought AFL was National and so any Govt free kick would be relevant. AFL will be holding out its hands in WS and GC no doubt. No problems with free kicks as long as all get them occassionally.
7. Yes plead guilty to having bleeding heart this week as MV and then Man U both played poorly and it was painful to watch

Redb said  | April 25th 2008 @ 5:04pm | Report comment

KB,

your commets re the AFL ANZAC game are ignorant nonsense. Give yourself an upper cut.

Redb

Dave said  | April 25th 2008 @ 6:37pm | Report comment

I thought MVs would be the worst performance of the week but…70 plus points. Was it as bad as it sounds??

Dave said  | April 26th 2008 @ 10:42am | Report comment

Aaah Michael C they certainly did score…unfortunately in your game a team can score 10 times but how much celebration goes on when the others score 25? Not much me think…with apologies to Redb

BTW are you aware the biggest attendance for any sporting fixture, other than an AFL final, at the revamped ‘G’ is…Socceroos vs Greece friendly in 2006!!

Michael C said  | April 28th 2008 @ 4:54pm | Report comment

Dave -

back to the original thread - an, in defence of My ROoboys.

Presently, membership of 33,084.

3 home games so far this year, average crowd of 34,933. Okay, lowest of 23K and highest of 48K.

Last year, home avg crowd of 28,077 -

but, that included 3 ‘exhibition games’ up at Cararra with all three providing 11K (ish).

remove those games, and the regular Melb based home games averaged 34,361.

———————–

NOw, back to the membership of 33,084

Just, how many are you suggesting are ‘charity’ cases……because, the point of required charity me thinx is at least 6 weeks passed, if not 3 months passed.

Michael C said  | April 29th 2008 @ 9:55am | Report comment

Dave -

you’re still basing all your assumptions on guestimates and unsupported supposition.

And - using that subjective speculation to ignore, or claim as false - objective measures such as average home crowd size and total number of members

and - ignoring the fact that MVFC have a single city code monopoly, playing every 2 weeks - during the domestic off season - and thus allowing anybody and everybody with a soccer interest to attend that match without conflict of local competitions.

Your suggestion of 10-15000 sympathy members is utter rubbish.

You disrespect NOrth Melbourne in a major way.

You forget that this is the year in which the name ‘North Melbourne’ has been reclaimed. This is the stand your ground year - - this is the year that a good number of somewhat disillusioned North supporters who have lamented the loss of identity and self respect in recent years (via the ‘trading as the Kangaroos’ and the playing home games interstate and the uncertainty about relocation or not) - - -
given that in most years of 22-24K membership, there will be a churn factor of about 8000 members from the previous season NOT signing up - - -

This IS the year for them all to come together. And they have.

Don’t go dissing us again!!!!

Michael C said  | April 29th 2008 @ 1:46pm | Report comment

Okay Dave -

“These are the true comparison figures with support for MV.”
Wrong. ’tis not true.
How selective do you wish to be here? You’re still glossing over that for the entire soccer community in Victoria, to see a HAL game - they get but one chance a fortnight - - one chance only in a city of how many soccer players and people for example of Greek and Italian heritage amongst others sure to go along now and then whether a member or not.

True support for MVFC would be to run it, like Melb Storm, across winter - head to head with other ’sports entertainment’ on a weekly basis and see just what ‘true support’ you could present.
Also, to run MVFC matches against FTA coverage (granted, NM don’t get that often, but, often the Sunday arvo TD game is the delayed coverage FTA sunday arvo game).

It’s not a level playing field that you’re working with here. And, again, your assertion of 30-40K opposition supporters is rubbish anyway - - our max home crowd in recent years (since being closeted in the TD) is 51.5K vs Coll at the MCG. Oh, for the good old days of 50-60-70K at the MCG on a regular basis…..ah, back when we owned Friday nights…..

anyway - - -surely we must also remove from the MVFC average games vs SFC - as, they obviously display an abnormally high crowd figure indicating non-core supporter/member attenance that skews the mean of 26K for TD games last season and certainly the 32K figure for the second season on the back of the very much out of the blue 50K crowd vs SFC - - that, we note reduced to sub 32K last season.

——–

NMFC - keep mindful that many home games vs interstate teams over the past 10 years have been played in venues such as Manuka or Cararra.

There’s not much data to go by -

HOwever,

2007 - vs Sydney 27,045
vs WCE 26,113

2006 - a crap year for North - vs Adelaide (mothers day Sunday - - a graveyard fixture for attendance) 16,064
v Bris 27,947
v Port 14,815 (I was there - by that point, both teams were having a crap year, near the end of the season - you’d almost have to