Melbourne Victory: already the 8th biggest club in Melbourne
By Dave, 13 Apr 2008 The Crowd is a Roar Guru
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After only three seasons of operation, the Melbourne Victory are well on the way to establishing themselves as a dominant force within the AFL mad Melbourne sporting scene.
Not only are they the biggest of all the football clubs in Melbourne, they are easily bigger than the NRL team, the Melbourne Storm, who had a six year start and have made three Grand Finals in that time.
But l would argue they are also bigger than North Melbourne, Melbourne, and at least equal to the Western Bulldogs in the AFL, with St Kilda in their sights.
What do l mean by biggest?
Well, there are a number of criteria that could be used. But for the purposes of this article, l will use supporter numbers.
Melbourne Storm average around 11,000 a match at Olympic Park, and even when they’re at Telstra Dome with better facilities, they will struggle to achieve an attendance of 20,000. Remember, this is a team that has been in three Grand Finals, including the last two, and are widely acknowledged as the best team in the NRL over recent seasons.
They have superstars of league playing in their team, including those that are first choice for the State of Origin and the Kangaroos.
In the AFL, North Melbourne averaged home crowds of around 30,000 in 2007 when they finished in the top four.
This is a club with 100 years of history, and as recently as the 1990s, were the benchmark of the competition with several premierships.
They also claim to have 30,000 members in 2008.
I would argue that many of the ‘members’ in 2008 bought tickets out of sympathy and are not North Melbourne supporters.
Look at their attendance today against weak drawing Melbourne at the MCG in perfect weather on the traditional Saturday afternoon — 23,000. Victory had a bigger crowd on Wednesday night against a team who had about 100 supporters at the ground.
Two Melbourne clubs with 23,000 between them!
Look at any North home game against interstate teams or weak drawing Melbourne clubs and they will struggle to get 20-25,000.
Their average from last year and previous years is falsely inflated because 50-70% of support in those home games were from the big rival Melbourne AFL teams such as Essendon and Collingwood.
A couple of years ago they played Port Adelaide in a final at the Telstra Dome and only 25,000 rocked up, many from Adelaide.
Melbourne have been struggling over recent years on the field, and so their current support is below their normal average.
However, their home attendances are also falsely inflated by the massive away support of the big Melbourne AFL clubs who bring 50-70% of the crowd number to any one fixture.
Their memberships are very low in comparison to the big AFL teams. And over recent years, they have drawn less than 20,000 several times at the MCG and tend to try and sell their ‘home’ games against interstate teams such as the Brisbane Lions to the Gabba knowing the crowd numbers will be dismal at the ‘G’.
Melbourne Victory have a larger home average to Melbourne when comparing home games against teams from interstate (true support!)
The Western Bulldogs are doing very well on the field, and so the call against them is controversial, admittedly.
However, l again come back to games played by the Western Bulldogs at home against interstate opposition (that have limited away support) and would argue that the Melbourne Victory have a higher average (26,000 in 2007-8).
For example, in the first game in 2008, the Western Bulldogs drew around 25,000 versus Adelaide to the Telstra Dome, with several thousand Adelaide fans boosting the attendance and a Western Bulldogs star player playing his 300th game!
Their home game average is vastly inflated by games against the big AFL teams in Melbourne, as it is with the other two teams.
So what is the point of this article?
The Melbourne Victory in three years have surpassed, in terms of true supporter numbers at games, the Melbourne Storm and 3 Melbourne AFL teams who have had 100 years or so head start.
Therefore, despite all the recent controversy about the number of AFL teams in Melbourne and relocation, the conclusion is clear: Melbourne will lose two-three AFL teams within the foreseeable future. And, yes, the writing is clearly on the wall for North and Melbourne.
Melbourne will also have a second HAL team within that same time frame.
The NRL still have a lot of work to do to establish the code in Melbourne. What happens when the Storm stop winning and lose their best players?
And the ARU are nowhere to be seen!
‘The times, they are a changn’.
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April 13th 2008 @ 7:31pm
Redb said | April 13th 2008 @ 7:31pm | Report comment
Dave,
No worries i know that was not your point, but Substitutes.
I’m fairly pragmatic and its easy when your team is Essendon I know, but I’ve always felt that 9 Melb teams is too many for the comp. i think your timeline is about right, North Melb at 8-10 years, Melb perhaps 5 – 8 years. The AFL has done extremely well to keep a presence for the Swans and Lions even after much early pain, by the time each was playing Grand Finals there was enough connection for old Fitzroy fans to enjoy the Bris Lions wins and South supporters the Swans – the bloods. That may not be possible in the future. The size of the AFL comp with $6m salary caps,etc makes it hard for the smaller clubs to compete, they will either go back to the VFL, merge or relocate.
Re Melb Victory, I sense a poor on field performance in HAL 4 will probably see a level off membership and crowds. already happened in HAL 3. It is no doubt a sustainable and healthy level with 20,000 members.
cheers
Redb
April 13th 2008 @ 7:38pm
Midfielder said | April 13th 2008 @ 7:38pm | Report comment
Substitute & Dave
The main reason for Wollongong is it will help tie up south western Sydney plus the general south coast for about 200 Kls past Sydney.
I agrre that my plan 2 (of Melbourne extra, GC, Wollongong, Extra Sydney team—meaning Townsville wait untill teams 13 & 14) will be the one adopted.
As for teams 13, 14 there are so many, Tasie, Darwin, Townsville, 2en NZ team, PNG team, Canberra, Murry River team.
April 13th 2008 @ 7:53pm
Dave said | April 13th 2008 @ 7:53pm | Report comment
Midfielder
I have a concern about HAL having too many regional teams and teams not located where the masses are. Certainly the CC and Jets have done well so far, having put in the hard yards no doubt. Do you think there is a danger of having too many teams from smaller regional areas in too early. GC ok, then has to be Melb and Syd 2nd teams. This covers a huge population areas and allows rivalries to develop whilst HAL is going strong. Wollongong strategically placed but is the support there? Same with NQ?
April 13th 2008 @ 8:07pm
Midfielder said | April 13th 2008 @ 8:07pm | Report comment
Dave
Don’t be …………….. it is the right way to go.
Wollongong will draw on South Western Sydney about 800, 000 people and the Southern Shire i.e beach side but close to Wollongong about 200, 000 people.
So Wollongong has within 20 – 45 min’s fairly easy drive over one million Sydneysiders, plus its own population areas Wollongong alone has 230, 000 not counting outer lying areas from Nowra up so roughly another 70, 000. In total about 1.5 million …………still worried
Gold Coast has a population of 600, 000 not counting the Tweed Valley in Northern NSW, and there is no break betwen the two apart from waterways with lots of connecting bridges, population hard to say as you can easily make the GC with an hour from Byron Bay but say another 200, 000, plus south Brisbane at least 1 to 1.2 million. Still …………worried.
Football is the main played game in these areas with league the main code watched.
Also regional NSW & QLD are the fastest growing parts of the country.
April 13th 2008 @ 8:30pm
Dave said | April 13th 2008 @ 8:30pm | Report comment
Midfielder
Thanks
At this stage have no concerns re GC as they seem well advanced, modern stadium etc. They just need the right blend of some local talent plus one or two big names to get going. However I have noticed the Titans crowds have dropped since the first game sell out.
Know little about Wollongong and its football culture. The population is certainly there or thereabouts but will they support a team in good enough numbers, sponsorships etc? Don’t recall their NSL team being particularly well supported? I know even less about NQ and its football culture. At least they have a decent stadium from what l can see on TV.
Also have we idismissed 2nd teams in Perth and Adelaide to readily? Know the problems with Glory but in the good ol days, 43,000 at the GF! Maybe 13th & 14th teams in 5 or more years could come from one or both of these cities? Would mean HAL games each week in cities of 1million plus.
April 13th 2008 @ 9:02pm
sheek said | April 13th 2008 @ 9:02pm | Report comment
Guys,
It seems to be with the rich vein of talent available, the A-League could eventually expand to 12, or 14, or even 16 teams within 15 years.
It seems imperative to me that both Sydney & Melbourne should have a 2nd team. That makes 10. NZ ought to have a 2nd team, & the nation’s capital, Canberra, ought to be represented. That makes 12.
The next 2 teams being mooted are gold coast & North Qld. That makes 14. Then eventually another 2 teams will come from Wollongong, Geelong & Sunshine Coast. One of those missing out. That makes 16. you might even argue an extra 2 NZ teams. That makes 18.
I think 2nd teams from Perth, Adelaide & Brisbane might have to wait for the 19th, 20th, 21st & 22nd openings available! Whenever that might be!!
In 2020, it’s not inconceivable, the A-League would comprise anything from 14 to 18 teams, made up of 12-14 Aussie teams & 2-4 kiwi teams.
April 13th 2008 @ 9:47pm
Dave said | April 13th 2008 @ 9:47pm | Report comment
Sheek
Within 15 years l think 14 is possible. that would be almost a doubling of the current strain on talent pool, spectator numbers, sponsorship, advertising etc Beyond that who knows… There is definitely talent in this country but the competition so great between codes for the best youngsters.FFA are taking the right course by investing in coaching and youth pathways…whether football will get enough of the best youngsters remains to be seen. At least there is the overseas option, hopefully some Asian, Middle Eastern and African stars to go with the Europeans, Aussies and Sth Americans!
At this stage cannot see another Bris team, as GC will be in next year. FFA already burnt once with NZ Knights so would be very wary of 2nd team (l personally wouldn’t rule it out after new Aus teams have settled in). It took VFL/AFL almost 100 years to expand from 12 and they lost 2 in the process, so FFA, with ex AFL man in charge, wont be rushed.
However the 1st major test for FFA in the expansion stakes is that apart from GC there doesn’t appear to be a standout club/consortium ready to come in next year to keep the even number of teams.
April 13th 2008 @ 11:31pm
Midfielder said | April 13th 2008 @ 11:31pm | Report comment
Sheek
Frank Lowy said he hoped for 12 teams with about 3 to 4 years. I think three actually and about 7 to 8 years to 14, and 16 teams is anyone’s guess but 12 to 15 years out sounds about right.
If and it is a big if, football can continue to grow over the next three years then the AFL & NRL TV rights deals will be interesting, especially if we make the 2010 WC. My belief is the AFL will have trouble getting the billion they want for the new TV contract and I guess by then internet connections, NRL not sure depends if they can keep the recovery going from the super league days.
Hardest part for football will be to grow at a pace that sends no one to the wall, and ensures for improvement on the park. I went and saw a state league match on Saturday night and the general difference in talent between the A-league players and the state league players is such that the A-league will find it difficult to grow at pace and improve the playing standard to a point were it would gain reasonable rating FTA.
Sheek your views on the ARC are well known, and the spirit of what you wish there I am in full support, but the product has to be of a quality so as to be compared to NRL & AFL & in football case EPL & Champions league…………and IMO the A-League is not ready for FTA yet…..as the quality when compared is not there……..the Socceroos are ready and its a pity they are not FTA. My point I guess is having the A-league on FTA right now could do it long term damage when the playing standard improves, and in two to three years it will be (I hope). This means when the NRL & AFL are talking to the FTA networks football will be sitting there 12 team comp, Asian and international links and much cheaper than either the NRL or AFL.
So Sheek you made another clever observation, but you left out the women’s league and it is anyone’s guess what impact that will have on future viewing patterns.
The teams as I see them will be a second Melbourne & Sydney team, Wollongong, GC, at the 12 teams, expanding to 14 with the inclusion of Townsville, plus another regional centre with a 20 to 30 thousand capicity stadium.
April 14th 2008 @ 7:57am
Redb said | April 14th 2008 @ 7:57am | Report comment
Midfielder,
I’m not sure why you believe the AFL won’t get $1 billion for the next TV rights. The revelance of the A League to AFL in terms is TV rights is marginal, for one it is a different season altogether. I find it interesting that soccer followers constantly live in this direct consequence universe with regards to TV exposure against other football codes, particularly the AFL. If soccer grows and get its own FTA contract fine, but what makes you think it will be due to the AFL’s decline.
I realise the country has only 21 million people, so many sponsors,etc,etc But I guess my main point is the assumption that people who currently follow the AFL will just drop the sport and take up watching soccer exclusively as the A League expands, I find this both arrogant and myopic at the same time.
There has long been a void of quality domestic soccer in this country and the A League is filling that void.
Redb
April 14th 2008 @ 9:49am
Towser said | April 14th 2008 @ 9:49am | Report comment
Redb
All football followers are not tarred by the same brush re the direct consequence universe you mentioned.
I firmly believe that anything acheived by Association Football in this country is in direct relationship to the quality on the park and professional administration and bears no relationship to what has happened or is happening in other sports in Australia. This can be borne out as I have stated previously by the fact that 3 years ago crowds in football were poor domestically(Socceroos & NSL) in relation to other sports. There was no TV deal and AFL,NRL,RU& cricket were doing well in comparison as they have been since I migrated here nearly 40 years ago. Three years later football has got its act together(the success respect formula) crowds have improved(Socceroos & A-League) and their is a decent(by previous standards)TV deal but the status quo remains for the other sports I mentioned.
The following has always been there whether it be from migrants like me & offspring or native born,but the void you mentioned needed to be filled which it now has.
If you want to look for the demise of other sports in Australia dont look at the rise of football as the cause.
It will come because there has been a drop in interest for whatever reason in their Domestic competitions(IE reduced playing Pool therefore lack of quality players). Unlike football however their is no safety net such as the EPL ,WC or Overseas football to fall back on and sustain interest amongst junior ranks as has been happening in football ever since I remember until recently.
Melbourne Victory are just reflecting the genuine interest in Football in that city that has always been there, unlike RL where interest is sustained artificially by commercial means.
As a football fan Dave what I use Melbourne for is a yardstick to measure Sydneys progress. By any measure SFC is lagging way behind MV.
What frustrates me about Sydney is that I know there is a much bigger potential football market there than Melbourne.
Whether they’ll ever get of their backsides to prove me correct,well thats another story.