By the way, the OP is grossly premature in claiming MV are larger than any AFL club, even piddling little North Melbourne. MV is a new club whose entire support base would be measured by its attendances and has not yet passed through the novelty phase. Neither has MV gone through a sustained period of failure like North Melbourne is currently experiencing, but it is worth noting that their crowds are falling even as they do relatively well. North Melbourne is an established club with generations of support spread out all across Australia, of which only a fraction would attend matches or become members. I have honestly never met a soccer supporter of any FFA club in my life, but I would have met hundreds of North Melbourne supporters outside a football context. It’s a bit like assuming you’re more popular than the Australian cricket team because nobody goes to one day games anymore. But really, if you guys need to believe soccers biggest club is the eighth (WOW!) biggest club in in Australia’s second biggest city, I guess that would make it about the 15th nationally, then don’t let me stop you.

I do find these infantile imperialistic fantasies and notions the existence of MV has ‘damaged’ an AFL club hilarious in the extreme though. Keep it coming.

As we keep getting crowd figures for AFL thrown at us how about the crowd for a football friendly in that hotbed of passion Kolkota (actually quite a strong football culture in the region) see below;

” Magnificent setting for Kahn’s last bow
A 120,000 crowd in Kolkata is expected to witness Oliver Kahn’s footballing swansong – but will the living legend finally score a goal?
A feature of Bayern’s Asia tour to Jakarta, Bali and Kolkata has been a vast camera and autograph book-wielding throng hotly pursuing Oliver Kahn, desperate for a handshake, signature or snap.
Kahn frenzy has hit a new zenith in the West Bengal capital, where his every public appearance has prompted the formation of a mighty scrum of well-wishers and media representatives.
Kahn’s last match
The reason for the tumult gripping the East Indian metropolis of 15 million is Tuesday’s friendly between Mohun Bagan AC, Asia’s oldest club, and the touring Bayern team.
The match is the last of Kahn’s illustrious 20-year career as a professional footballer and Bayern’s final game on their Asia tour within the scope of the DFL’s external initiative.

Huge crowd expected

The setting for the three-time world goalkeeper of the year’s farewell could hardly be more sumptuous. The 120,000 capacity Salt Lake Stadium in Kolkata, the second-biggest sports arena on the planet, is expected to sell out for Tuesday’s game, producing the first full house for eleven years.

Mohun Bagan normally attract an average attendance of around 20,000, but the giant keeper’s last outing is a different matter altogether.

“Out of the ordinary”

The prospect of the monstrous crowd largely prompted by the Bayern captain’s presence has not passed the 14-year FCB loyalist by.

“The chance to play for the last time in front of so many people is certainly out of the ordinary,” commented the 38-year-old, accustomed like all his team-mates to crowds in the region of 70,000 at most. ”

Ok boys lets see you beat that one

Norm,
you are of course a gentleman.. no reason why we both can’t share in the action.. 768 posts still a way off the target of a thousand posts set by Midfielder..

Dave, this thread must be some sort of a record.. Check out my post on Fergie….

~~~~~~~
KB

Then my beloved Rabbitoh’s internal squabbling with the owners Russ and Pete, which I was unwittingly and innocently dragged into because of unfounded accusations of a 3 way gay relationship. Leaving Jason on the side lines pulling out his hair to find an answer to stop the club’s haemorrhaging and dismal performances so far this season..

If that was not enough Norm, Dave is now putting the slipper into me because of my support for my beloved SFC, (the first likely Australian Football Club to win the FIFA World Club Cup Championship)..

Just when you think, that things could not get any worse, Norm I have now have been ostracised by “Comrade Paul” from “the in-group” akin to something like an “occasional unregistered player”. Norm I am shattered man. I think that the only person still left on my side is my disco dancing partner Midfielder.. Tho, I have suspicions, that he is just sucking up to me, so he can get into the SFS on my pensioner’s discount pass to our next home fixture at the Sydney Football Stadium, when I travel down.. I am not looking for your sympathy Norm.. Just a fair suck of the Saveloy, with the CRSL Ladies Auxiliary on the lady’s day in the Sauna room…

~~~~~~
KB

Just because I have not responded to your points does not mean that you are right. You have consistently done nothing but hurl cheap insults, which is not in the spirit of genuine debate, so I have decided not to give you the time of day anymore.

Good day sir.

Craig Foster today said that our lads should have won as the second half and extra time and two shot hitting the woodwork were very unlucky as we dominated and looked more stronger in the run home… I have to agree totally on that analysis.. You can’t argue with an expert opinion larrrd…

~~~~~~
KB

~~~~~~
KB

Where will it end…”The Average One’ gone, the tablet broken, JT in tears and not having slept since, Lamps unsure, Didier Dropkick to Milan…but wait l have the answer…yes…take the ‘Scottish One’… Sir Ernie of Merrick…no no don’t thank me..just think of ot as a gift to get the boys back where they belong…er not quite sure where that is but never fear The Scottish One is…
Midfielder again…just a step to the left…er something about Moscow
Norm you have to understand the tough time KB is having…Chelsea lost…SFC are no good…Paul has left him off his Buddies list…now you have taken over the CRSL!!

Comrade Paul,
you don’t have to tell me I know; Norm is every where in the CRSL; in the Ladies Auxiliary sauna; at the Bridge classes; Bingo, every where you look, Norms is there……. Norm back off… The gals are ignoring me..

Paul, you said … ” I feel no need to respond to your other points”… As you don’t feel you have to answer my questions, that I put to you; then I take it I’m right and you are wrong … as you can’t answer… NO Need to reply then.. I’ll take it as a given..

~~~~~~~
KB

main thing is that soccer is firmly entrenched – - no changing that – - it swept all before it with effectively zero competition.

the main competition has been rugby (either – - of the football competition).

That leaves a lot of people out in the cold – - because, not everyone wants a clear choice of only soccer or rugby. So – - there is still a vacuum in the middle – - and, we all know that natures abhores a virgi…….a vacuum.

However – - that is a bit of a skills set rationalization – - – - as we know, logic and rationale fall down in the face of money and lots of it.

keep mindful though, for so long, Aust footy O.S. was solely the domain of ex-pats who had stuff all real desire to try to ‘grow’ the game – - they just provided for their own desire to have a kick. It’s only of late, as natives of other countries pick up on the game – - that the hand of Australians has been forced, so to speak.

‘flexible’……..’culture’………not sure what we’re talking about here?

See ball…..get ball………kick ball…………..how flexible or cultural does that need to be??

btw – - carna Roos – - although, we won by virtue of an opposition player missing a shot after the siren that would have given them a win…………..and, I realised why I don’t like penalty shoot outs – - – I want to win because we kicked a goal, NOT because they missed. I normally love and respect Brad Johnson (opposition player who missed) – - and, wouldn’t wish the feelings of guilt and the like that he is going through now. Much, much prefer the win on the basis of a ‘positive’ act.

I know with a penalty shoot out you can talk up the goalie save – - but, still – - most people still regard it as the kicker who failed to score. Or, mebbe just people like me who can rattle off misses by Viduka, and Beckham etc, and have no idea who the keeper was.

Not saying that AFL is not capable of being flexible .Just stating on the arguments presented to me over 40 years in Australia that from an outside perspective it appears the games appeal for its fans is derived from a narrow base created in another time & that is probably the reason that it will be difficult for it to spread to other cultures.
You personally may not be reflective of that base.
As an example in football we had difficulty adopting to the time wasting tactics of some Asian teams in last years first time for us Asian Nations Cup. We were expected to do well we didn’t partially due to lack of cultural awareness of Asian football. So now Australian National teams have adopted a more holding style of play when playing Asian teams not sop much “hell for leather” style of play. This also happened in the Asian Champions League to a degree with Adelaide learning from last years participation & playing a more holding the ball type of game than their normal style.They have progressed this year to the next round.
Melbourne Victory on the other hand were Asian novices.
My personal opinions is as I have said that the parameters for all sports were set from their birth. If a sport as of today still remains basically & in particular geographically in the same place it was when it started then the likelihood of it spreading today is minimal.
But life experience tells me that “NEVER is not a word that should be in anybodys vocabulary.
I’ve seen to many Neville Nevers come a cropper to think otherwise.

You are right in saying that Association Football has been flexible and accepted by other cultures,

BUT

AFL is now being taken up in Papua New Guinea and South Africa by cultures quite different to Australia.

AFL is also increasingly being played by women in Australia and girls are equal participants with boys at the AUSKICK level.

These are examples of AFL also being flexible.

So as much as your argument that FA/ FIFA Football is flexible is correct it does not logically mean that AFL Football is not.

Once again, if you take TV out of the equation then I think that we would have a far more level playing field.

I am not saying that Aussie Rules was unlucky. It wasn’t because Victor Trumper was wealthy that he had influence, it was because he was Australia’s greatest sporting hero at the time. He commanded respect and his opinion was very weighty. Add to his strong influence the factor of professionalism and you have the explanation of why the game stopped in Sydney. This says nothing of the international story, but it DOES explain the Sydney story. Please itemise you disagreement regarding Sydney if you feel otherwise, bearing in ming Trumper’s sporting influence not wealth. (Keep in mind that Aussie Rules had “overwhelming support by Sydney siders” since its inception there- so there has to be a stark explanation why this turned around- Trumper and professionalism.)

As fas as the international story is concerned, there never really was one. This is not a matter of luck, as you allege I am claiming, but simple fact. Australia was removed from the world. The IRB were not interested in listening to Australia, as we were simply the convict country and they were the snobbish upper class. The game did spread to New Zealand, but it ceased during World War 1 and the young men playing the game did not return. New Zealand played in the Jubilee Carnival of 1908 against all the states of Australia, winning some of their games, so they were no pretend outfit.

The name of the game has gone through various changes: Melbourne Rules Football to Victorian Rules Football to then Australasian Rules Football (because of New Zealand’s involvement) to Australian Rules Football in 1927 (when New Zealand had faded out) to now officially simply AFL Football, to make the game more acceptable internationally. In USA the game is officially called US Footy and in South Africa the game is officially called Footy Wild, so I don’t see the name of the game being a problem in the modern day. There has already been plenty of flexibility to allow the game to change and will continue to be so.

So the world never heard of Australasian Rules Football, but nevertheless even if they had, they were more heavily influenced by Association Football and Rugby Football because they were from ENGLAND. England had a LOT of influence in the world, it was the largest and wealthiest empire at the time. So don’t underestimate this fact either.

There are some from both the soccer and footy camps who claim that their game is better, but hopefully we can offer the other respect of not making such claims here. Let’s continue to be rational in our debate.

Would agree with that assessmentt to a point. My own personal opinion of why Association Football spread across the globe is flexibility. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head to a degree why other sports didnt. The ones that did like football ,basketball,tennis were not intrinsically linked to any particular narrow base as far as allowing other cultures to pick up on them. Sports like RL & AFL are definitely restricted by the narrow culture that spawned them. Football can be adopted to whatever background it is presented to. The greatest example of its flexibility is the rate the womens game has been taken up around the world. An example of footballs flexibility & one I have first hand experience of is Football in Sheffield & RL in surrounding Yorkshire towns like Castleford Dewsbury, Wakefield etc. As I have alluded to before the same people play RL & football except that Sheffielders were created from a heavy industrial background. As an example by the time I was 16 I had broken my foot arm & nose playing football. I made my senior debut at 17 for my works team. We played against another works team the local colliery near where I worked. My first sight (as a gangly lad )of 15 stone miners made me realise that any sublime ball skills that I had learned in the schoolyard were to be quickly forgotten if I was to survive the match. Unsuprisingly. so it turned out. RL was also played in a robust manner by the same miners in Wakefield but it had one serious flaw in allowing it to spread further than its heartlands it could not be played any other way.
Hence RL suited the early settlers of NSW & QLD being seen as a sport on face value more robust than Association football.
Likewise in the Southern states with AFL. Plus as Dave said it was seen as a badge of honour to be proud of the fact that it was Australias indigenous game played in the ‘Typically Australian ” manner of the era it was created in.
Personally I have been told many times that its our “unique indigenous game” and my experience is that people who follow the game are proud of that fact. It is however its biggest drawback in its ability to spread throughout. the world. The very “Australianess” attached to the game is a yoke around its neck as far as expansion goes.
In case AFL fans wish to argue this ,these are your words(not mine). I am only repeating what I have been told by yourselves over the years as this has been in relation to me stating I was an Association football fan.
Same applies to American,Gaelic football etc . Even Cricket which despite in essence being in my opinion more culturally flexible than many other sports ,its appeal is still intrinsically linked to the Commonwealth.
So the aspects of football which aggrevate many Australians(and many football fans brought up in the “Fair play British mould’ such as myself ie diving cheating cunning play, are amongst some of the reasons that football has been adopted & adapted by different cultures. Australians like the British do not like these particular “cultural”aspects of the way the game is played in some countries . This sort of play is frowned upon in the A-League in my experience with some foreign players getting a less than welcoming reaction to any “simulation” at first. Most seem to realise its not on here after that.
However when we play some Asian teams a certain flexibility has to be taken on board by ourselves if we wish to be succesful in the region.
Hence the Brazilian style of succesful football. My own opinion is that the English invented Association football the Brazilians & other nations created it. Africans can play it bare footed on dusty streete kids like myself played it in cobblestones at the back of factories. Germans are technically proficient in a disciplined manner & so on.
Their may be another reason for Footballs spread around the world, but I’ll stick with the games flexibillity in being able to be embraced by different cultures.

I enjoyed your post on Melbourne’s growth in the Empire. In fact Melbourne was the richest city in the British Empire in the years following the gold rush. It enabled Melburnians plenty of free time for recreation. I think this is indeed one of the reasons why Melbourne is the most sports mad city in the world. This is something I am very proud of as a Melburnian, but also something that makes it hard for me when others around the world can often be so ambivalent towards sports in general.

P.S I’m still up for that beer at the International Rules match. Drop by my blog and send me an email if you like.

Red B,

Commiserations on the loss tonight. I though, a loyal Tigers supporter am celebrating. I will be looking forward to next years Dream Time rematch. What a grand tradition.

I don’ t think that Aussie Rules was ignored in the northern states at all.

An interesting fact is that the first Rugby club in Australia was Sydney University. The club formed in 1864. Thirteen years later (1877), Victorian Rules Football was first played in Sydney. Interestingly the Sydney University Club and the Waratahs club both petitioned the NSW Rugby Union to switch over to the Victorian Rules game. There was “overwhelming support” for this move in Sydney (that’s a quote from Fagan). The gentleman leaders of the NSWRU could not bring themselves to this decision, primarily because they could not bring themselves to break from the IRB (International Rugby Board). Victoria petitioned the IRB to change to Victorian Rules, but the IRB were not interested. (Perhaps the IRB never saw a game.)

Nevertheless (by this stage) Australasian Rules remained popular in Sydney. In 1903 an 11 side league was established in Sydney to play Australasian Rules. It was championed by Victor Trumper (famous Australian cricketer) and NSW politician Edward O’Sullivan. O’Sullivan argued that NSW should “support a game that was invented by Australians for Australia.” There didn’t seem to be any rivalry at this stage to prevent this from happening. Through out this period Rugby was popular as well, but Trumper argued that Australia was a big enough paddock for both games.

Ironically it was Victor Trumper who also brought about the death of Australasian Rules in Sydney. A 1905/06 New Zealand Rugby team made a lot of money on their tour of England. This was instrumental in Trumper changing his allegiance. This lead to the establishment of the NSW Rugby League in 1907 and their first season in 1908. At this stage Australasian Rules had still not turned professional and did not do so until 1911.

If Australasian Rules had already been a professional game, Victor Trumper may have continued to be its champion in Sydney, and the game may have been Australia’s national sport. History takes many turns at pivotal moments. The years 1903 to 1908 were the turning point in Sydney for the fate of Australian Rules Football.

The 21st century has just begun and there are new turns in history yet to happen. It will be very important what Sydney decides to do over the next 10 years. For it is in Sydney where the greatest confusion currently lies in allegiances towards football codes.

Have a read of the Rugby perspective of Sean Fagan towards the story of Australian Rules in Sydney:

http://www.rl1908.com/articles/aust-rules.htm

kids don’t sleep in, so, as much as I’d like to sit up and watch the IPL – - – but, alas, bed beckons.

Dave -

just never forget, that Melbourne was a city unified by the ONE code. It got onto it as early as anyone – - 1858 – - not many earlier examples of people trying to play recreational football. The city happened to be small enough at that time (about 80K), and yet very soon big enough and wealthy enough (in an isolated local context – - i.e. biggest city in Australia but still well removed from other capital cities and obviously from other ‘influential’ countries).

The game and city grew together as one. Never underestimate that.

A strong, bold and courageous local culture is able to hold firm. As an Australian, (of Danish parents) – I observe this with pride for our family’s adopted state/city (via East Gippsland). I search for aspects of Australia to adopt pride in – - much is just natural, even the Opera House – - well, designed by a Dane and lambasted by the thickhead locals until finally they realised what a gem they’d been gifted – - – ruddy bunch of local yokels.

I owe no allegiance to the British Empire – - and, maybe, respect – as per the ability of Denmark to be so small and yet resiliant and yet influential (esp via early British history around the Danish kings and Dangeld etc era). So, I respect the strength of conviction to hold firm against what can all too easily be just regarded as the inevitable.

It’s always like the crowd scene in the Life of Brian – - “You are all individuals”,…..”Yes, we are all individuals”……(that’s the soccer world so far)….and then, Melbourne call’s out “I’m not”……….

‘night all.

i think you can probably tell that I’m not accepting your theories. I’m hurting over Essendon yes but that does not explain much, if anything I would be vulnerable to jumping on a bandwagon and we both know that cant be another AFL team – that is out of the question

Redb

‘football is only 3 years old’ – - nah, you can’t say that. Soccer was the first football code to have a national competition. 30 odd years ago. Australia qualified for the world cup finals back in ‘74. You surely are selling short all those achievements. A little dismissive is it not? This is but another crack at it in a different time – - but, this ‘3 years old’ stuff – - nah, that’s just rot. I know from what angle you see it that way.

Dave – - surely, the same simplistic ‘vacuum’ theory would hold for Sydney too.

However – - it’s a tail of 2 cities.

Sydney was the colonial first outpost, the main admin city for the imperial activities in ‘Australia’. It was a city with a very rocky early history – an insecurity, based on being a convict settlement and military outpost that almost starved out of existance and repeatedly had to look to mother England for sustenance – - it was a very ‘British’ city from the perspective of those in positions of power.

Melbourne, the land of squatters and gold miners – - people with aspiration and initiative – - NOT a military settlement.

The ability for Aust Footy to ‘take the world’ was always going to be cut short north of the Murrumbidgee.

Simply because, a code had more hope being called the Djibouti Code de’fusbol than ‘Victorian Rules’ – - or ‘Melbourne Rules’ – - simply because of the 2 major aspects -
1 – - the intercolonial rivalry – - exacerbated by the rising wealth and advancement of Melbourne and Victoria
2 – - the revolutionary fear based around the Eureka Stockade and the proportion of population on the goldfields of Irish, American etc — i.e. NOT LOYAL ‘children’ of the empire.

Dave -

without competition – - don’t forget – the entire money making theory that pushed Victor Trumper et al to jump from a possible push of the ‘australian game’ to follow the Rugby League cash train as illustrated by the All Golds – - surely THAT is competition.
The fact that any touring team from England forced the local sides to PLAY the English version of the game – - that’s hardly a vacuum – - that’s a direct exposure to the ‘English’ game.
The fact that even in the ’30s there were thoughts of a merged Rugby/aust footy game – - there was competition and impetus in certain sectors to fall in line to varying degrees with the more ‘general’ forms of ‘football’.
AND – - as you agree with, the post WWII migration, mainly Euro – -prior to that, children of the empire – - however – - the main vacuum you might suggest is the lack of MEN post WWI ensured that the capacity in most places to provide greater diversity was MUCH reduced.
It WAS no greater vacuum than that so many young men were killed or incapacitated. BUT – - and don’t forget, the LOSSES from the WAR actually STRENGTHENED the community association with the VFL.

I’ve seen quoted that 133 INTERNATIONAL Rugby players died in WWI (i.e. from all countries). RL had just started in Sydney.

However, VFL – - lost about 90 players (& 2 goal umpires) in WWI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VFL/AFL_players_who_died_in_active_service
Including 15 who fell at Gallipoli.

That doesn’t happen and NOT further cement the importance of the code to the city and people of the state.

So – - for me, it’s not so much ‘vacuum’ theory,

it’s good timing – even if tragic.

but, then, bad timing on the flipside ensured that Sydney never ‘fell to the game’ – - even though, at various times it looked quite possible.

Nothing really to do with the quality or otherwise of the game – - in that the open flowing play that was more enjoyable for many players and spectators that saw the Trumpers of the world on the verge of bankrolling Aust footy in sydney – - that meant nothing when MONEY spoke – -

so – - I always find it humourous if an RL people whinge about money today – -because, their code is entirely born from the lust for money. Charming really.

I’m pointing out that your explanation is one of rationalising in your mind how a city can embrace AFL when soccer for example in your mind, is clearly such a better game. “They must all be brainwashed or the media hide the truth about the game.” LOL Or its only because Melbourne was isolated from the world that it created the third highest average crowds to a sport in the world. The game itself does have its attractions, they are real and not about to go away due to globalisation.

Redb

In terms of the world there was plenty of other sport to chose instead of football. Yes football was spread by British migrants and workers but so was Cricket, RL , Rugby and Hockey to name a few. Hardly a vacuum.
The immigration to Oz after Federation was steady rather than mass and at times (during WW1) ceased. As you say football whilst becoming popular in Britain had nowhere near the influence it currently does. So British migrants in relatively smaller numbers unlikely to make much impact re choice of football code. VFA had league running since latter part of 1800s and VFL started in 1897 so Aussie Rules well established before Federation.
In terms of world sporting influences Melb pretty much isolated and AFL allowed to flourish unfettered.
BTW l am not knocking AFL but giving my interpretation of why it has such a hold on Melb and yet largely ignored to the north and around the world. IMO it was in this vacuum of world influences that both led to its conquering of Melb and its lack of recognition elsewhere.

Not selling AFL short by any stretch but there is an explanation as to why it grew so strongly in Victoria but was largely ingnored to the north and in the rest of the world. Surely if it was the game in its purest form then anyone who saw it would come under its mesmerizing spell. It didn’t happen and the notions of Sydney-Melb rivalry and RL professionalism can be espoused but if it was such a spellbinding game then why has almost half of Oz discarded it and preferred other codes?
In relation to the vacuum theory it is quite plausible. Aussie Rules gained an early foothold in Vic and mass Euro migration did not eventuate until after WW2 (Aus pop grew from 7m at end of WW2 with 6.5m migrants coming in the next 6 decades). By that time AFL had become entrenched into the Melb psyche and change of allegance to other codes in any great numbers was not possible. In fact Euro migration after WW2 probably rusted on Melb support for AFL to an even greater level. Football communities were largely divided (sometimes along ethnic divides) and over time to assimilate many gave up their native code for that of the new country (also obviously happened with RL in Sydenee to some degree). The point being that AFL was able to foster and grow in Melb pre WW2 without competition and in a vacuum in terms of world influences and immigration. By the time mass Euro migration occured after WW2 AFL was entrenched. Immigrants had to assimilate or remain, in at least the sporting sense, on the outside looking in.
I am not knocking AFL but attempting to explain, in part, its hold on this community.

It is possible to say …………. A ………… and not be talking about ………… B…………….

If Dave and football people talk about the potential of football to raise ………….. that does not mean he / we are saying AFL will fall.

At a domestic level, football is actually only three years old, has a piddly budget by comparision to all other codes, very few media people, ………… no football people in the electronic media, aside from fox. No great pass brought out each year like the Collingwood and Geelong match you spoke of.

Who has ever suggested the AFL will fold, who even says it will not grow.

I ask myself why so negative why so much attention to another code??????????? who are no threat what so ever………and I don’t know the answer

I think you sell our indigenous code (AFL) short and the focus it has in Melbourne. It is quite unique in world sport. You can spin Melbourne isolation theories as much as you like, but there is a certain chicken and egg premise to your thinking.

My view is that the game offers so much to soo many that we built the mighty MCG to accomodate the interest in the game. Make no mistake without football, the MCG would like the SCG. Instead it is surely one of the great stadiums in the world.

The game and the MCG are the heart beat of this city and if you choose to sit on the sidelines that is your call. We have soccer, we have rugby league, we have regular rugby union games, they come and go, but the fact remains when two clubs in Collingwood and Geelong can draw 78,000 people to a game last night, not last month, or last year, or last decade, the game is alive and well.

Melb Victory and its much vaunted Asian comp got 9,500 in Melbourne this week – know your place. and this from a fan of Melb Victory, but it will always be the third passion in this town, with daylight second.

Redb