AFL: Australia is not enough

Footy Fan said  | April 21st 2008 @ 4:09pm | Report comment

The biggest problem is exposure.

The AFL should be aggressively marketing the game overseas. But not to expats - to the people who have never heard of our game. Something like the “I’d Like to See That” campaign which worked wonders in the 90s in Queensland.

People in NSW and QLD are now aware of the game, but hostile to it. Overseas on the other hand, it carries significant untapped novelty value and there is less of a stigma to battle. They are also vastly bigger markets in both population and dollar value.

Firstly I think that the AFL is underselling its TV rights. This year Ten HD snapped up the NFL and they thought they got a bargain. But where can you watch AFL in the USA ? On some obscure satellite channel. I can see a day when AFL is relegated to pay tv. Not because it is not popular, but just because it can’t compete against the monetary might of the NFL and FIFA when it comes to TV rights deals.

What is also needed is matches played overseas. Just one or two games a season in strategically identified countries, but not wishy washy NAB Cup matches, home and away fixtures. VFL matches like this in Japan and Canada in 1980s spawned an entire history of football which continues to this day. Imagine what a nationally branded league could do. The NFL sold out Wembley. We have a better product and we can’t even sell out the Oval to a bunch of expats.

Then there is the International Cup. The IFAF is an American Football event of the same age, which was hosted in Korea and sold its television rights. You have to pay even to sit in half empty stands at the qualifiers. They even have a token US college team. In contrast, our International Cup (what I think is a great concept) is always held in Melbourne, it is free, played during weekdays, doesn’t even make it onto TV and we aren’t even game to field an amateur team even though our best juniors take on South Africa every year just to get a minimum amount of AIS funding.

Other codes understand the meaning of globalisation. The AFL doesn’t care and it unfortunately shows. It would rather risk everything on a hostile market of 6 million than try its luck in a market of 6 billion. All it has to do is realise the potential and invest in its future.

Al said  | April 21st 2008 @ 8:05pm | Report comment

EPL is way bigger than NFL throughout the world. The Super Bowl has an audience of around 90 million, of which only 7 million are outside the US. The Barclays Premier League would probably come close to reaching this figure weekly!!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2007/11/06/sfnfro106.xml

This article states that an Arsenal/Man U game in late 2007 had an estimated worldwide audience of 1 billion. Whilst I dont beleive it to be that high, it clearly dwarfs the NFL.

Dave said  | April 21st 2008 @ 9:40pm | Report comment

Truh Tah

EPL much bigger than NFL around the world. As stated by Al the NFL Superbowl has a TV audience of around 100 million of which over 90 million are in the states! NFL is the biigest game in the states but can’t think of anywhere else it is bigger than world football.

Foregetmenot
AFL should concentrate on trying to develop support in NSW and Queensland. If they can’t convince the people in those 2 states of the so called AFL greatness then what hope have they around the world. Should read Tony Jones, Ch 9 reporter, comments in The Age 20/4/08 in his column. After spending last week in Sydney he is convinced vast majority of peolpe there have no interest in AFL. This is the biggest city in Oz!

The Link said  | April 22nd 2008 @ 9:17am | Report comment

RedB, Brisbane v Sydney v Melbourne on embracing other sports would make a better topic, with Melbourne coming a poor third, particularly if you compare the uptake of League in Melbourne vs uptake of AFL in Sydney / Brisbane

The Link said  | April 22nd 2008 @ 10:37am | Report comment

RedB, not sure going nowhere in Sydney, probably more found its niche. The AFL has a genuine base in Sydney, League in Melbourne has a long way to go. Why this is would make interesting reading, particularly if we avoid the easy ‘AFL is just a better game’ cliche’s.

As always I don’t think there is a silver bullet to this, but in my view AFL popularity in Sydney definatley spiked during the Super League war and has stayed at a consistent level since the Swans have been winning. The true test for League in Melbourne will be with the new stadium built and a Storm side that consistently wins. If it can’t take off (relatively) after that then News will face some tough decisions in continuing to back the team. I’d suggest they already had a fair deal to do with Bellamy’s reappointment…..

Towser said  | April 22nd 2008 @ 12:39pm | Report comment

Redb
” that once the world sees the game they’ll be automatic converts, its not like that. It is far more complicated, with generations/families involved in a code of football they have in built preferences and loyalties and yes, prejudices!”

Never a truer word spoken. As a dyed in the wool Association football fan that is the difficulty this century in trying to sell something new to a market that gathered a following in the middle of the century before last or the beginning of the last century.
Particularly if that sport has only grown locally(for whatever reason). Its the reason Aussie Rules still struggles to penetrate NSW & QLD,they have their local sport Rugby League. Why swop one local sport for another. Also the reason that Association Football has grown around the world. Because it seen as a World game and its threat can be overlooked because their is a bigger picture ie the prestige & benefits to the nation from winning major International tournaments.
Their is another factor that many overlook here re the appeal of the “Local” state sports in Australia(I’ll reach where I;m getting to shortly) . Since World War 2 vast numbers of migrants came here including myself from “Overseas” Football cultures.
It is fact that we have stood by our & the worlds version of football. Despite it being a lot easier and a lot less pain to follow RL or Aussie Rules(depending on the state) In fact so much so that the game is now in a healthy & progressive phase of development. The “Wog” era may have been divisive for many but it provided the catalyst for the sport to grow.
Now if migrants haven’t been won over in this case to “Australias own game”(won over & casual watching are totally different) having lived in a society with wall to wall media coverage of the sport(Southern States) how do you expect to penetrate the markets of the countries they migrated from where Association Football Is THE local sport. Transfer this local sport interest to the USA with its major sports or Canada with Ice Hockey etc and your pushing the proverbial up hill.
Also I dont think I’d be relying on ever increasing numbers of cricket ovals around the world to spread AFL.

The Link said  | April 22nd 2008 @ 3:56pm | Report comment

Redb, it was the allignment of them both no doubt. The Swans would’ve received a boost from SL regardless in my view. It was just bigger due to Plugger and the strong team. The Storm have a much more successful side now than the Swans in the mid 90’s, yet no shakeup of the dominant code to assist.

Cheers

The Link

Forgetmenot said  | April 22nd 2008 @ 7:53pm | Report comment

Thanks for the good wishes Adrian Stoop.

John Ryan said  | April 22nd 2008 @ 11:53pm | Report comment

Yes poor old Adrian he may actually be able to think for himself,unlike the group think in AFL land

Michael C said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 10:15am | Report comment

Norm -

you said : “The overseas participation in AFL is in direct correlation to the overseas interest in AFL.”

One might suggest, in the main, that that is also a function of the overseas exposure. And, where interest is generated - the other function is over availability of appropriate venues and capacity to establish and sustain clubs - - which, in the pre-internet/satellite tv generation was severely limited.

It’s a new world now. And, the AFL has to a large degree been caught out by the growth - - and certainly by such standards - in some places, it’s been rapid growth (let’s forget more international game standards - as, by the standards relating to Aust Footy - obviously, there is only, thus far, one ’supporting’ nation, one ’supporting’ elite competition - - that makes the standards relating to Aust Footy rather different to most other codes - - RL for example has a NH and SH elite competition - - that’s a great advantage in supporting disparate growth around the globe).

Michael C said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 11:02am | Report comment

Adrian Stoop -

for your benefit the example of my ‘homeland’ - Denmark. I’ve highlighted a couple of key points, and also - - a reminder, that a country like Denmark, much loving the game of ‘handball’, and to a degree ’soccer’ (when they manage to qualify - because, strangely enough, it doesn’t ‘grip’ the nation ALL the time - but they still remember fondly to Euro’92) - - Aust Footy is the perfect fit combining skills of soccer and handball. And with an Australian princess - what better country to be in. NOte however, it’s not just the last couple of years - - the grass roots have been building since the very early ’90s, and now, the predominantly local competition (i.e. stuff all ex-pats), including juniors - is central to mainland Euro footy.

Danes bring handball precision to International Cup
Author: Chelsea Roffey
11:33 AM Thu 17 April, 2008 (off AFL.com.au)

MOST people in Denmark have never heard of Australian football, but their national team, the Vikings, have a secret weapon that has helped them master the sport.

The Danes have perfected the precision handpass that is a feature of their indigenous game, European handball, translating their smooth skills into the free-flowing code from Down Under.

AFL Denmark’s Niels Schønnemann-Rosberg, a 100-game player for the Copenhagen Barracudas, said the quick handpass was an advantage for the Vikings, but had its drawbacks when taken into football.

“The one-two combination is used widely in many Danish sports,” he said.

“It’s not uncommon to see a player in his first game handpass rather than kick the footy, which at times can be frustating when their kick is actually a better safer option than their handball precision skills.”

But in a nation where most people think Australian football is a version of rugby or gridiron, and is considered a violent sport, the Vikings’ greatest challenge has been promoting the game to their countrymen.

“Generally we try to explain it as a bigger version of soccer, where you dont pass the ball on the ground, but run or kick to each other,” Schønnemann-Rosberg said.

“Many are surprised when they are informed about the forwards, midfielders and defence, which is similar to soccer. But we also tell them it’s a much faster game.”

The Vikings were born in 1992 when they played the North London Lions, an established team that taught the Danes much about their adopted game. The Danes played (and lost) their first official international match against England two years later.

Since then, Denmark has evolved a successful competition. With around eight out of every ten players in the seven-team league being Danish nationals, the country has a small but strong base of players eligible to for the International Cup.

The team last competed in Australia in 2002, finishing fourth behind Ireland, Papua New Guinea and New Zealand – three teams with strong football traditions.

The Vikings have rivalled the Swedes for years, developing what Schønnemann-Rosberg describes as an icy relationship shaped by hundreds of years of wars between the countries.

“Sweden has improved, but the Vikings still need to prove we are Nordic champions at least, so we will try to give them a good football lesson in our training match against them in May,” he said.

“England has proven hard to beat last year, and they are regarded as the strongest team in Europe now. We certainly know that we have a good chance of beating them, so we would expect an even game.”

Note - the Vikings - the national team - is locals only, as are all the 15-18 teams that may (will) be in Aust in August for the IC 2008.
Note - any sport that develops around neighbouring nations with existing rivalries has potential to grow. Denmark vs Sweded vs Germany is a tri-nations rivalry that will continue to grow. The Battle of Britain games across the channel, and the Irish vs Poms, likewise, the US vs Canada etc.
In the past, teams were generally single city, really just totally social - rarely played ’seasons’, came and went with individuals. However now, there are leagues and associations - there’s some infrastructure and history being created.

Towser said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 11:28am | Report comment

Michael C

Know of the Carlton/Collingwood attachment in particular Carlton personally. Its difficult to escape generalisation as migrants and experience is a broad subject.
But I stand by the On balance position re the growth of Association Football and migrant influence using it as an example of the difficulties of any new sport to penetrate long estabilished markets in other countries.

Redb said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 12:04pm | Report comment

Millster,

I think most agree that it is unique to Australia and should be celebrated as such. In the first instance the game needs to keep growing around the country first , anything overseas is a bonus but it doesn’t hurt to nurture here and there. South Africa’s north-west province is an example.

The Canadian juniors is interesting for the code.

Redb

Michael C said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 12:41pm | Report comment

re the original article question stated in the last paragraph - -

Q - “There are many other ways that football can develop going into the future. These are only a few. What should the AFL, and the various international bodies do in to the future?”

A -

junior international cup - - absolute must. Each nation should be able to access reasonable ‘home’ govt funding for international junior competition - - certainly, the AFL via AIS etc knows the value of junior international competition.

junior IC would allow kids who have ‘discovered’ the game via school or playing a short summer season or whatever to have a real crack and be potentially exposed to talent scouts.

Every 2 years?? Sponsorship for such is critical - - and maybe some Rudd govt handouts……..(easier said than done if not using a spherical ball).

AFL needs to support/encourage overseas - decent and regular contests - lessening travel burdon.

Establish a semi-pro league in the US/Canada and one in Europe/Britain - - even if just a 6 round ’superleague’ - that can be pitched to pay tv and sponsors and feature the best available talent. Something relatively short, sweet - not overly taxing on relative amateurs - thus allowing per match payments to perhaps be reasonable even if the aggregate amount isn’t huge.

AFL needs to really target areas with hotspot junior programs - - for exhibition matches and training camps etc.

AFL needs to encourage more ‘9s’ tournaments, encouraging Aust ’social teams’ to head overseas for ‘footy tours’. Already, the Convicts run great full squad ‘footy tours’.

Greater encouragement in general of sister club and league relationships.

Encouragement for more junior international reciprocal visits such as between Geelong College and Farum (Denmark).

An example being :
Last year, the DAFL GF, a week later, everyone crams into a Copenhagen pub to watch the AFL GF live, then, off to Landskrona, Sweden for a full scale international.
the annual Farum Cup junior lightning premiership was held in Farum on Sunday. This year the competition benefited from the participation of the visiting Geelong College team who had played a junior Scandinavian side as a curtain raiser to the DAFL Grand Final the week before.
In the mini age group for boys and girls under 13, the tournament was enhanced by the entry of a junior North Copenhagen Barracudas team who joined usual Danish clubs Farum and Slagslunde, and Malmö and Landskrona from Sweden. The arrival of the Cudas not only made the tournament more interesting, but also gave it a new winner as they stole the show from Farum who finished second.

Following the minis, there was a three way junior tournament for under-15s between the Cats, Magpies and Bulldogs. Boys and girls from all over the region and Geelong College were divided up into even groups for full-field matches, which ended with the Cats defeating the Bulldogs in the final.

btw - Denmark defeated Sweden by 15 pts in wet conditions in a tight encounter.

Towser said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 1:21pm | Report comment

Millster Redb

No sport can emulate football. Having grown up in a place that contributed much to the world game I have no real explanation for its growth. I’ve seen many reasons produced for it but non that really explain it. Nevertheless it is fact.
Like yourself Millster I dont understand why fans of AFL need it to grow Internationally. In fact it seems to go against the majority view(from AFL fans) of what I have heard over time that the local rivalries developed in the sport over 150 years are sufficient.
If I had continued to live in Sheffield I would have like my relatives still do follow The English Football Leagues in particular the 2 Sheffield clubs. International football would be there as an outlet to pour out National pride but if it wasn’t I doubt whether the average Sheffielder/Scouse /Geordie would care as long as they beat other clubs in the English Leagues.
LIke Millster I dont know how many times I will have to reiterate that the unique conditions 100 and odd years ago that created the particular enviroment for the mass sport watching spectator enviroment cannot be repeated in todays hi tech instant communication orientated society. You may see other sports and dabble as per Millster with Baseball, but the Generation/Families/Preferences/Loyalties/Prejudices bond as per Redb’s quote is a pretty solid combination.
You tell me that AFL is better than Football you insult 4 generations of my family the friends and city I grew up in the football team I followed since birth. The reverse applies to AFL fans and their attachments. Although I obviously had no prejudices against AFL we did against Rugby league. Regarding it as the “Puddings” (local derogatory jargon for hicks from country Yorkshire) game, a sport for lumpy lads who didn’t have the sublime foot skills of Association football. That fact as I later realised as a teenager was completely knocked on the head when I played against these same lumpy “Sheffield” lads.Steelworkers and miners in the local leagues and realised that the Silky footed game of Danny Blanchflower(great player for Tottenham at the time) bore little resemblance to tackling a 16 stone miner who probably ate skinny teenagers legs for breakfast.
Many would have been better up the road at Dewsbury(RL) but tradition, heritage prevailed and the prejudices get passed down from generation to generation.
No harm at all Redb in nurturing your game here and there but of the 2 questions asked in this article the second is the go.
As it stands now the domestic sports market in Australia is becoming more rather than less competitive . Take your eyes off the ball at home and concentrate on a “glued on ” overseas sports market with massive costs involved you lose the plot.

Redb said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 1:59pm | Report comment

Towser,

One of the reasons I mentioned South Africa’s northwest province is that there is no embedded football code culture there. Its virgin territory for anyone willing to take a sport to the masses.

I think the AFL is pursuing 95% expand the game in Australia policy, 5% overseas.

The salient point missed is the growth overseas in ten years. In the US from nothing to over 50 teams, this almost entirely has been organic without any support from the AFL until the last year or two and then just minor support.

It would be irresponsible as custodians of the game for the AFL to ignore overseas leagues entirely, the International Cup is recognition of that responsibility.

Redb

Redb

Redb said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 2:53pm | Report comment

Andrew Kacimaiwai - well good for you.

Your comments re TV coverage:

“I am very angry that up here we have to put up with overload of a sport on both networks that the vast majority of us either don’t care about or just hate”

then in the next sentence,

“You should listen to some of the comments of AFL supporters who turn up to a sports pub up here expecting to see, say, Collingwood vs Essendon only to express dismay that the NRL is on line and that they can’t expect to see their game until closer to midnight! (Welcome to Sydney)”

So which is it- saturation coverage or games on at midnight?

Arrogance perception is interesting. What are you and your type scared of? Why even comment if you have no interest.

Build a bridge…

Redb

Towser said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 3:28pm | Report comment

Ben Buckley in an interview recently targeted West Sydney, Melbourne, Gold Coast, Nth QLD as expansion areas for the A-League. Interesting thing was that this was in the order of importance he placed on these particular areas so West Sydney was regarded as a key area. Having an AFL background I’m sure from his days there he had knowledge that this area was very important for any sport with true National aspirations.

Michael C said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 3:43pm | Report comment

Towser -

don’t you think there’s an inconsistancy though given that - should West Sydney and 2 QLD teams be a priority along with a 2nd Melb, that - effectively we’d see thus for a 12 team expanded comp:

3 * QLD
4 * NSW
1 * NZ

2 * Vic
1 * SA
1 * WA

0 * ACT
0 * TAS

———-
just how does 7 of 12 go into NSW & QLD, 1 from NZ, and only 4 from the other 50% of the country? That’ll be a model for disinterest within 50% of the country - - oh, perhaps a couple of ‘local derbies’ in Melbourne….but, a West Sydney team & a 2nd Melb team will dilute the value of MVFC vs SFC type grudge match.

Maybe Buckley is also just trying to stir the pot a little…the FFA defering the to recent licences indicates an unspoken wariness of going too fast before profitability is achieved, the 2nd tier has to be run successfully first. The talent pool has to be increased and deepened a tad, I reckon the lack of real crowd growth in Sydney, Brisbane and Melb and the going backwards in Perth and stagnation in Adelaide might be forcing a consolidation period. However - the earlier claytons announcements of licence bids stirred up a little bit of publicity for a week or two.

———–

We often hear about the AFL only having 2 teams for 50% of the country. The NRL has effectively 1 team for 50% of the country. The HAL and FFA have the chance to develop the divine design ….. and seem intent upon creating a competition directly competing with the NRL for footprint - - and that’s where I ponder the wisdom of those who Neville Chamberlain like wave the paper in the air saying that the NRL and soccer can work hand in glove……..the obvious point being that by the time of a 12 team comp - - over what, perhaps 33 weeks plus finals (or not?) compared to the existing 21 round draw - -the overlap will no longer be ‘off-season’ and venue sharing will become a major pain.

Realist said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 3:47pm | Report comment

RedB you’ve missed the point, the saturation coverage spoken of is from 7 and 10, the game is replayed on Fox closer to midnight, the visitors to the Sydney pub are unable to watch the afl because there is a Rugby League game on at the same time and is the preferred viewing choice of the majority of patrons.

The arrogance angle comes on the back of a flood of coverage being thrown at us when it simply does not rate, the insistence that Western Sydney is a market waiting to be tapped by afl - we’re quite happy with our code of choice thank you, the ads you may think are funny just don’t carry any weight up here either - they smack of arrogance once again.

Michael C is pretty typical of an AwFuL supporters attitude, carried through to the brink of insanity admittedly, but there is that same air of self importance about the game everywhere, maybe it has something to do with the fact that the admin actually pay for ads masquerading as articles with the “favourable coverage” contracts that only came to light in the wake of the C7 court case. In fact as far as I am aware they are the only sporting league to do so, indeed such deals are actually illegal in America and I see a correlation between them and the “cash for comment” radio controversy.

Andrew Kacimaiwai said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 4:13pm | Report comment

Redb, AFL was “hidden” on Foxfooty because the powers-that-be thought there was a big enough market to sustain an AFL channel. (How did that venture turn out, by the way?)
The fact that AFL is on Fox 1 now and NRL on Fox 3 (premium) is an indication that Fox is trying to recoup all the money it spent on AFL coverage from up north (I believe this is called income diversification) by getting NRL fans to pay up!
The Super 14 is available ONLY on Fox Sports. Not having Fox at home (belt tightening),I have to rely on watching my team at the local pub!
As for your your reference to the Celtic Club: I don’t get it. But then I don’t get to Melbourne enough to understand! Neither am I a Wallaby “fly in” (or does twice in four years count?).
But I am a long-term migrant, raised on a sport that had international legs (first soccer then rugby union). From a non-Australian point of view, it is something novel and uniquely Australian. I went down to an AFl game a few years ago to give it a try — I was more excited about grabbing the next beer then about what was going on the field (although the grandmother sitting next to me had enough passion for the both of us).
Sydney is a big market; there are plenty of things to capture your interest. AFL will find its niche here (like rugby union and league has in Victoria). It’s big enough for a second team; just don’t expect the city to go ga-ga over it.

Redb said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 4:31pm | Report comment

AK,

You’ve attributed some comments to me that i didnt make, but that’s ok, like most of your rant its full of inaccuracies or irrelevant comment. I don’t care whether you individually like AFL or not, doesn;’t change in the slightest my love of the game, just reinforces my view that RL fans are bitter about the AFL in NSW and QLD, where as I said we dont give a stuff about rugby league in Victoria. I do actually like rugby union and would love a Melbourne Super 14 team - so use your influence and make it happen eh?

re Fox coverage - it is a fact that RL has been a fox product for years ,hence, the by far greater pay TV penetration in Sydney than elsewhere in the country. If you don’t beleive me- google away. Fox Footy didn’t survive becuase Fox did not get the take up it required in the traditional AFL states, this is primarily due to the AFL’s TV deal offered the best games to free to air - fact! .

Interestingly since the demise of Fox Footy, Fox have negotiated a better deal with the AFL for 4 live games a week, albeit again these are not the best games.

So again, we come to the perceived arrogance. I suggest that apart from a checkup with your shrink you just plainignore it, its Ok.

Redb

Redb said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 4:41pm | Report comment

Towser,

I think Australian’s love of sport is unique. Some might say it should be better directed to the arts, culture, but we are not Europe or Asia.

10 years is way too soon in my opinion for any major shifts. In 10 years it is likely that the AFL will have grown in NSW and QLD at steady pace, RL grown a small amount in in Victoria, soccer will grow the most but from a small base (I’m talking TV and spectators - mainstream sport nationally) and union will grow in WA.

Redb

Realist said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 4:45pm | Report comment

Micahel C, hypocrisy is a curse

Please tell me if this is not you:

“Rugby league is supported by chavs, meatheads and rejects.”

“you meatheads are so worried about the future of your stupid little game”

“Rugby League.

Stupid game, played by stupid people, watch by stupid fans.

End of story. ”

Or was that another Michael Clarke, international AFL high priest?

John Ryan said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 7:33pm | Report comment

Hey Midfielder, did not the other member of the AFL daisy chain tell you not to mention the cash for comment,your a bad man and thus will invite the full scorn of Michael C,another 50 paragraphs about how AFL is a shineing example to us all, and they have just founded the Chinese AFL,
His mate will tell you that NEWs LTd gives the Storm acres of free press in Melbourne,that all NRL supporters are nasy evil people Blah blah Blah.
Realist I have a feeling that there is more than a grain of truth(something the AFL and it supporters on here have severe problems with) in what you say.
Otherwise life in AFL land carries on as per usual

Lex said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 8:11pm | Report comment

Perhaps change the name of “Aussie Rules” or “Australian” Footy etc. when marketing overseas……..

Redb said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 8:19pm | Report comment

All,

Good to see there is so much debate from fans of other codes on the AFL in an international context. keep it up.

Redb

sydneyswansrok08 said  | April 23rd 2008 @ 10:54pm | Report comment

Hey dudes lets remember that this is NOT NFL OR SOCCER ITS AFL!! some of your comments are like way off the topic talk footy man By THE WAY speaking of Rugby or Soccer they both have world cups wouldn’t it be cool if we had a Rules Football world cup but not all countries come that would make it too difficult and it happens like every 5 years only certain countries like the US, Canada, Africa, England, Brazil……. U get the Idea only those that might be able to introduce AFL into thier country and creat mabe a small leage or something should get that chance it sounds lame and all but i think it might be a idea to think about Oh ya cause footys made in australia every world cup would be help here and depending on howmany teams and countries participate we could have like rounds like a season……. U get the picture if u dont use ur imagination Anyway If anyone would like to add comments place do so i wana know wat people think of this idea

Joseph Merrick said  | April 24th 2008 @ 8:11am | Report comment

I can just hear all those football fans across Europe when they come across Michael C’s winter wonderland of Aussie rules played by lush green fields along the banks of the blue Danube.

“What’s that mommy?”

“Look away son, it’s hideous.”

Redb said  | April 24th 2008 @ 9:35am | Report comment

link above is not working for some, if your interested, google world footy news and find the link to AFL Britain in the news items, it works Ok from there. Good website for AFL Britain..

Redb

Midfielder said  | April 24th 2008 @ 12:45pm | Report comment

Redb

Midfielder,

This was your comment to which i referred to:

“On one of the broader issues raised above about players, the worry for OZ sport in the near to medium future is 20 / 20 cricket. More so I think for the AFL, but all codes need to watch this space on 20 20.”

I then said

In the past cricket in Vic has found it difficult to get the best sports people as the pulling power of the AFL and its rewards were and are so tempting ……….. that AFL is the first choice. Other states similar but TBH, AFL pulled at the hearts harder than league, union & football.

Good luck in Pommie land

Redb said  | April 24th 2008 @ 1:19pm | Report comment

Midfielder,

I’m sure the allure of big dollars forces some decisons by top young athletes of 13-16 years of age to choose a certain sport. Certainly, many kids are good at many different sports up until 12-13 years old, then more intensive training regimes are required to go to the next step and kids must focus on one sport.

If money was a domnating driver for kids who are good at a vareity of sports to choose the one with the most dollars on offer, then tennis, golf, soccer and basketball would be the 4 sports of choice for juniors to seniors in Australia. Certainly, basketball offers huge opportuntiies for juniors in Australia to gain US college scholarships and perhaps a crack at the rich NBA. Those pathways have existed for at least 15 years. What has actually happened is that AFL has taken more athletes from basketball than vice versa, yet the rewards for AFL are so much less. I’ve been involved with junior basketball at State level in Victoria, which has by the most juniors in the country and yet the AFL still draws athletes to the game.

So my point is that whilst money on offer does play its part in junior sporting choice, it certainly has not proven to be the case anywhere near to the extent it is perceived.

Redb

Midfielder said  | April 25th 2008 @ 12:52am | Report comment

Redb

I have not explained myself well ………….. if say Australia has a 14 team 20 20 national comp. Say each team has 24 players and is shown each week something like a football code weekend viewing. Seven games played each weekend from say October to March / April.

The Australian teams going off playing in Champions league type matches in the off season that is were I see 20 20 I think all that is possible with comps running in all current playing nations at least. Plus International matches played in agreed international windows see FIFA. as how to run domestic and international comps

If this were to come to pass (still a big if mind you) but if it did I suggest many players who see a football codes as there first call will see cricket as a better call. IMO cricket will then take talented players from all football codes.

Football will have to face a 20 20 club comp, and as I said earlier AFL will have to fight harder to get the top sports people as from afar it appears most kids in Vic perfer AFL to everything else and this is less so in Sydney, having said that every code will have problems football most of all with the summer comp.

Al said  | April 26th 2008 @ 6:32pm | Report comment

Westy, not to rain on your parade mate but if Russia has a ten team comp and there are 5000 players does that mean that they play 500-a-side league over there?

Michael C said  | April 28th 2008 @ 9:11am | Report comment

cheers Al,

normally, it’s simply a case of ‘crap in, crap out’….in this case, it was ‘polished crap out’.;-)

Redb said  | April 28th 2008 @ 11:37am | Report comment

Realist,

keep your bum sniffing wrestle mania not national rugby league orientated comments off our little AFL biosphere.

By the way Realist, how may turned up to your ANZAC day game? Phhhffttt….. LOL

Redb

Redb said  | April 28th 2008 @ 12:56pm | Report comment

MC,

the odd childish jibe is all those folks understand sometimes. Its curious that it’s mostly thugby leaches that make these types of comment - why would you care.

Redb

p.s. did you check out the AFL Britain site?

Realist said  | April 28th 2008 @ 1:53pm | Report comment

Fair enough, I don’t really expect you to see the irony in bagging 500 registered Russian Rugby League players then bragging about 200 local Swedes.

The garbage was in reference to the “polished crap” comment, but feel free to apply it to any of your comments if it suits you.

Those points are blatantly obvious to me, would be to most people I expect.

Micahael C, you still haven’t confirmed wether those comments above can be attributed to you, I don’t know about you - but they seem pretty juvenile to me. Hypocrite.

Michael C said  | April 28th 2008 @ 2:27pm | Report comment

Realist -

that comment was from the IT basis, re computer programs - Shit in.. shit out. The programmer’s lament.

Al had a backhanded compliment for the humour of a particular post whilst not so delicately indicating the rest of my contribution is blog drivel.

Al said | April 24th 2008 @ 11:39pm (4 days ago)

Michael C, you write a whole load of crap sometimes but that comeback to Jospeh Merrick was just about the funniest thing that I’ve read on The Roar. Stick to comedy!!!

My ‘crap in, crap out’ was just a paraphrase of the IT saying as if to downplay the importance of most of what is presented here. It WAS NOT a swipe at anyone in particular, (and no-one moreso than back at myself). The ‘polished crap’ was relative to my own post that I gather that Al enjoyed - (which was in answer to Mr.Merrick) - - and therefore, I described it thus.

You certainly need NOT have taken offence at that. It was only ever a ‘throw away’ line in the context above.

However - - you do seem desperate to take offence and take that personally. I assure you that I try my darndest to avoid that level of discussion - and that I am only here to share knowledge, information and gain what to me is an outsiders perspective.

Redb said  | April 28th 2008 @ 3:08pm | Report comment

Towser,

AFL is the Australian football League, the acronym is not ARF - well not when I went to school. Go to World Footy News and see if you can find ARF in any of the overseas leagues names.

In nay case you miss the point and from a soccer fan such as yourself your comments are perhaps best grouped with the try hard hecklers of the nrl, but you obviously you feel the need to chime in with the weight of heritage behind you. So to be polite, the point, not to be too blunt about it, is that we AFL fans don’t give a rats what rugby league is played where, this is about Australian football being played overseas, get it ? I mean do you get finally get it

All these fruiit cakes from other codes commenting with the insight of the bleeding obvious is missing the point entirely as to why AFL fans are interested.

Redb

Towser said  | April 28th 2008 @ 3:26pm | Report comment

Redb

Seemed to have missed the point all round judging by your response which seems a little reactive.
RE the main thrust of this article which is about whether Australian Rules football should grow internationally then its position in Europe in comparison with RL surely is relevant. I thought I was being favourable to Australian Rules Football re this position in Europe in comparison to RL there.
RE the ARF surely that is more correct when referring to the game rather than AFL which is referring to a competition?
Perhaps when name calling and “Fruit cakes from other codes” you should refer back to your interjections on the SMH Flog site.

AL said  | April 28th 2008 @ 3:52pm | Report comment

Who here wants an international perspective?
Im born and raised in Melbourne, never a mega AFL fan, but I dont mind it (except the mass-media publications left, right and centre).
Im currently in Auckland, living with maybe a hundred international uni students. They all think AFL is a stupid mix between volleyball (handball) and rugby. I live with French, Americans, Canadians, Dutch, Indians, Germans and heaps of Kiwi’s too. None of them honestly think that high of AFL. I honestly wonder whether AFL can take off outside of Australia and the Pacific Region, or its just going to always be small-scale comps.
As a football fan, I still wish AFL all the best, however I honestly now realise it lacks the world-wide appeal of football or rugby.

Redb said  | April 28th 2008 @ 4:22pm | Report comment

Oh c’mon Towser I was only being half serious with the fruit cake remarks, mostly directed at nrl try hards.. Your reference to ARF is incorrect, no one calls the game ARF within AFL ranks, if that is your chosen label for the sport that does not make it real.

Apart from the World Cup issue and fan violence I rarely swam upstream in recent times on the SMH flog site. I often showed genuine interest in soccer, in particular Melb Victory, but my inevitable comparison with Australian football caused dissent and passions took over. There are lot of good folk on the flog, but I prefer the Roar now it is more of a multi- code universe.

Al,

i think the AFL suffers from inadequate TV coverage and a lack of structure to uneducated eyes. This is where soccer has an advantage it is a simple game to telecast and understand (offside rule aside). Soccer and the rugbies are more structured, played on small grounds by comparison, AFL is about a 50/50 rolling contest with all limbs allowed. It is a chalenge for the game to come up with a way to show the games true appeal on the TV, coz the game live has few peers as a spectacle.

The interest in the game overseas is grown from people having a go and finding its fun to play, kick the ball, take a mark,etc. That’s definitely the long road and will be no overnight sensation as a result, hence the AFL’s push with juniors via Auskick, get them playing and understanding the game.

Redb

Michael C said  | April 28th 2008 @ 4:46pm | Report comment

Guys -

this is the whole branding thing. I remember a footy trip to Sydney in ‘98, I think it was, and all the girls were saying how they preferred AFL bodies etc - - and here we were from the VAFA D grade!!!! We’re NOT AFL!!!! But, for the ’simple folk’ (god bless ‘em) — they just used the term ‘AFL’.

Doesn’t make it ‘right’.

For the benefit of simple folk the term ‘Aussie Rules’ has been used. It doesn’t make it right.

And, I think, that Redb and myself prefer to push the ‘Australian Football’ tag. And to not allow the soccer try hards to claim exclusivity to the term ‘football’…….(again, we’ve been down this path a little).

At any rate - - the use of ‘AFL’ for the Australian Football ‘tab’ here on the Roar is typical of the problem.

And, eventually, via perception there becomes the reality - - and it’s left to linguists and historians to try to set people straight in 150 years time…….

again - - in context - it may be appropriate to specify “AUSTRALIAN rules footy”, and, it may just be that in ‘expansion ’scenarios that ‘Aussie Rules’ is an appropriate term similar for example to ’soccer’ - - used as a ‘nick name’.

westy said  | April 29th 2008 @ 12:47am | Report comment

Al….and Redb and Michael C I expect better from you. I did not thihk it necessary to quote all Russian teams . The 10 teams refer only to adult opens and reserve grade sides .not amateur or junior sides. I verified the information for the United Kingdon with British Rugby Football League; British Amateur Rugby League and The British Ministry of Sport not Wikipedia. Your barbs about league in Russia are accepted but so to is the artificiality of what you discuss about AFL in some countries. Just do not exaggerate or create senseless hype.The 32 professional teams in the UK and over 340 amateur teams from opens down to u/8 make a mockery of AFL’s presence in the UK. That you believe it will grow is good . As Redb has legitimately suggested from little things big things grow. But that is the point it is very little. I stuck with league because I did not want to embarrass anyone with the figures for rugby around the world. There is a big difference between the AFL and its international Cup that highlights the small scale nature of AFL’s international presence…..Australia’s national team does not play in the tournament or against these teams . Until they do so these international pretensions are just that.. pretensions. I am more concerned about where Western Sydney is going to get a competitive team from… not the window dressing. Do notbe sensitive they happen on the League sites and the rugby to. As a sydneysider who regularly visits melbourne and sees a few AFL games I am often overwhelmed by what seems a wll rehearsed rant about the international growth of AFL. They seem to regularly read the AFL development site. I am often taken aback by this as it is all very well and good but all I want to do is see a great sporting spectacle at the MCG or Dome whereas it seems of great importance to them. Upon querying this my friends often say it is in part a reaction to comments by rugby followers especially prevalent during Melbourne ,s unsuccessful Super 14 bid.and the Wallaby tests in Melbourne. The pity is the people I go with are Demon members/ supporters so I have not seen to many good games so far and this may explain my real concerns about the players available to the new franchises. I like sport in general. Being in Sydney does give a sese of perspective as I am sure it does in Melbourne about the other codes. Remember I like AFL as a sport not a cultural or tribal pursuit. I react when it is poor. League at the moment has a sameness about it that can be boring . In fact it may be that the poorly watched Storm in Melbourne ironically play the most attractive League. Push AFL overseas . I hope it is successful. A thread about the futur international Cup would highlight the grassroots expansion strategy overseas. just do not push this too far at this stage as it in my opinion raises issues of an inferiority complex. The AFL is domestically in a position the other codes can only dream about and over time it may achieve a competitive international presence. Just be careful in pushing the hype as it does raise notions of inferiority ….I was in Melbourne during the bid for the super 14 place and well rememmber the local radio talk that AFL needed an international presence to shut them up. It was you remember one of the key arguments of the Melbourne organising commitee that rugby was an international game needed by an international city.with international companies.The AFL continued its domestic push and the rugby bid fell by the wayside.

Michael C said  | April 29th 2008 @ 9:50am | Report comment

Westy -

it was Al who challenged the Russian figures. I don’t think I paid any attention - let alone direct barbs towards - your Russian front.

PErsonally - I don’t care. I couldn’t care less about what Rugby does anywhere. Either code of Rugby. It’s just another English school game dressed up for adults - and it’s expansion or otherwise is meaningless from the perspective of my interest in the organic growth of Aust Footy overseas and the fact that it is unequivocally Australian - - which is far more than can be said for either Rugby code.

I have no idea why you’re making your point about RL in UK vs Aust Footy in UK. RUgby League IS AN ENGLISH GAME!!!! It is based on Rugby - which is an English game, and in 1895 RL began - - - I have no idea why at all you would compare the two. Talk about going off on a tangent.

RL IS NOT AN AUSTRALIAN GAME.

RL IS NOT AN AUSTRALIAN CULTURAL EXPORT.

No matter what Rusty Crowe says.

Picking on the INternational Cup - - you seem to forget that these are people who are rank amateurs - often with only a matter of a few years exposure to the game - who care enough to self fund to get to Melbourne - - this IC is the first one in which the AFL has managed to ‘cover’ accomodation for the competitors. It is certainly no fully funded jaunt to try to over represent the AFL ‘international reach’.

We know that we don’t even necessarily get the best players from each country - - as I illustrated with the extracts re. the Swedes - - a squad of 30, based on those willing and able to take leave and pay to come down.

Sure - Australia aren’t playing.

That’s the obvious thing to do. It would be a farce if AUstralia DID play. And you claim it to be a farce because they DON’T play. That just shows you’re again, missing the point. And re the inferiority - - that’s exactly why the first 2 International Cups passed by with many people completely unaware - - and, in truth, it’s only now that more and more people start to realise that the familiar notion of ex-pats ‘representing’ Malaysia and Thailand is more often NOT what we’re talking about regarding the leagues in Denmark, or Finland, etc where expats may represent just 20% of participants.

btw -

steer clear of Melbourne games at present - - they should be better than they are - - and it may not be happy camperville with the new coach and players adjusting to new game plans and an obvious signal of a generational transition. Melb fans can but look to Hawthorn as the example, Clarkson has stuck tight during the rebuilding phase and now they are one of the most exciting units to watch/follow. If you get the chance to see Haw vs Geel this year (rnd 17 I believe) - - take it with both hands (hmmm, it’s almost like 1989 again……..Savvas??)

btw -
a few of the results in for the Anzac day weekend:

2008 LFAC Rnd 4 Cornellà Bocs 8.9(57) Valls Fire 5.9(39) COR 27.04.08
2008 PL Rnd 4 Port Malmö 5.9(39) Værløse 9.13(67) Landskrona 26.04.08
2008 PL Rnd 4 Jutland 9.9(63) Copenhagen 19.14(128) Århus 26.04.08
2008 SAFF PL Rnd 2 Solna 7.10(52) Bromma 10.16(76) Årsta 26.04.08
2008 PL Rnd 4 Helsingborg 7.4(46) North Copenhagen 23.25(163) Landskrona 26.04.08
2008 USFL Rnd 7 Dallas 10.8(68) OrangeCty 7.7(49) Richardson TX 26.04.08
2008 USFL Rnd 7 Balt/Wash 19.19(133) Nth Carol. 3.5(23) Washington, DC 26.04.08
2008 USFL Rnd 7 Nashville 14.4(88) Chicago 6.5(41) Nashville TN 26.04.08

Al said  | April 29th 2008 @ 11:04am | Report comment

That’s OK Big AL it’ll surely confuse them!!!!

BTW:

Just because Rugby League wasn’t invented in Australia doesnt in my books not make it an intrinsic part of Australian culture. Rugby League is just as much an integral part of the landscape (especially in NSW and QLD) as Ausse Rules. NO ifs no buts and if you try to deny it you are just showing your ignorance.

Some AFL supporters (and I’m in any way suggesting that any of the fine contributors to this site fall into this category) seem to deny this and seem to think that as soon as us ignorant locals see a game of AFL we will fall prostrate at the altar of the Sherrin. Sorry boys we already have a game and we love it!!!!

P.S. Im all for AFL international expansion, anything that gets Australia out in the world is a good thing!!!! (Unless were talking about Schappelle Corby, Corey or other bogans like them!)

Michael C said  | April 29th 2008 @ 11:41am | Report comment

Ian Noble -

stupid - stupid input.

Firstly - and most obviously - kangeroos, wallabies, possums - - you wouldn’t really expect them to swim oceans - - or fly north for the winter - - in the ‘international’ sense they are non-migratory. What of it. We have birds and whales and the like that happily make seasonal homes in Australia and at other times of the year are in the NH. What a stupid thing to say.

Secondly - very obviously, NRL - unique???? What do you call what they play in England under the banner Superleague?

Where was the game of RL born in 1895 - - England.

However - on the export front - certainly - England through the 1700-1800s was a net exporter of human flesh to Australia - rather than the other way around. England also was central to the British Empire - and thus had it’s cultural tentacles spread quite widely.
Australia -alas, had to keep coping with all these ruddy convicts and soldiers. At least most the convicts settled down, whilst many soldiers simply endured.
So - to suggest that a Melb/Australian innovation at such time that Australia was for the next 43 years to still be a collection of imperial colonies on the other side of th eworld - to suggest that there is any reasonable comparison to the spread of any of the English games (especially those associated with English school system - - I know RL was NOT directly from the schools - - but, still - - it is just another form of Rugby - - and Rugby IS Rugby when it comes down to it and plays can and do swap quite readily) - - that’s just a silly comparison.

So - you’re argument to stay in the bubble - surely you transcend that to all Australian businesses - BHP - should just opt out of the Billoton partnership and sign everything over - - Qantas should give up trying to compete internationally and only focus on domestic routes……Goodman Fielder should sell off all their brands to Parmalat or Kraft or Nestle or Kirin (NationalFoods).

Just - at what point do you want Australia to regress to a colonial outpost of England - serving only to mirror the English way and provide food and wool for the empire???

You reference to an ‘Aussie Cousin’…..so, what are you? Do you even live in Australia? If you do, you give every impression of not ‘embracing’ Australia if you need to refer to a relative as an ‘Aussie Cousin’ rather than just a cousin - - after all, there’s only 1 Irishman playing for the Swans - - the rest of the playing list, we can quite happily assume to be ‘Aussies’…….so, please, come clean, declare you position.

Westy said  | April 29th 2008 @ 3:28pm | Report comment

Michael C…I have never doubted that AFL is the most quintisentially Australian based code. I like the tongue in cheek advertising campaign that plays on this theme. What I do not like is when ignorance pushes this connection to the extreme. Flanagan’s book about AFL being derived from an indigenous game was based on wishful thinking , conjecture , dodgy history and a manipulation of time place and documents. It is when superiority turns to arrogance that hurts AFL in the non AFL states. That this bullshit was never questioned in the southern press even by reviewers was poor, and that it was then picked up and repeated ad nauseum both in the press and in a promotional campaign in NSW was at the very least misleading. All AFL had to do was put forward its very good development programmes in the indigenous communities. Michael C… the reply was purely a response to the AFL in BRITAIN. It is light on but may grow.Be patient report its growth just don’t hype YET. It is uncomfortable for some to go to an ANZAC day game in Melbourne and be confronted with assertions of troops playing AFL in WW2 amongst troops raised in SYdney and Queensland in North AFrica? This on the report of actual participants is not true.. It is also very troubling to link one game to Australianess. You miss over half the population who believe themselves to be as Australian as anybody else and have no or little connection with AFL.

Midfielder said  | April 29th 2008 @ 4:41pm | Report comment

Some advice to the AFL bloggers and further to Westy’s post above.

In football, Union and to a lessor extent league talking about INTERNATIONAL matches is that of a real contest where their is some merit in the discussions. For all means talk about your plans overseas and how AFL is being grown in overseas countries. You have no idea how much it does make people dislike AFL using INTERNATIONAL and further will in time start people questioning many other statements by the AFL.

So by all means keep talking about your international game if you like but beware of using terms used for meaningful contests, it may have undesired effects in the Northern States.

I also saw AFL advertising on the weekend, …………. even tounge in check …………… to claim AFL was the footy game played by troops ………… insults many who played league and union ……….. and football. If push comes both my grand fathers were in the first world war in France and one played league and the other football, my own father in the second world war played league …………… just be aware NSW & QLD history is different.

Dave said  | April 29th 2008 @ 6:21pm | Report comment

Aussie Rules was the greatest benefactor of Australia’s isolation from the rest of the world. It basically gave Aussie Rules a free reign in the Southern States with no competition. By the time of mass migration after WW2 Aussie Rules was entrenched here and it was assimilate or die (metaphorically) in the sporting sense. However the downside being it lost out to the rest of the sporting world because no one knew about it. Now in the shrinking world and the era of sporting behemeths such as EPL, NFL etc it has missed the boat on being a major player in world sports. It will have the opportunity to entice the few that don’t follow mainstream in their countries, those that want to dabble in something different, but will (certainly not in the foreseeable future) never become a professional or semi professional sport overseas. It will just be for those at the park level and those who like to dabble in something a bit odd (compared to their mainstream sport) and good on them for at least playing some sporting activity. It provides sports teachers overseas something different for the students to try like European Handball, the Rugbies etc in Victorian schools.

Al said  | April 29th 2008 @ 6:52pm | Report comment

Ian,

AFAIK (I was living in London until March last year) that game is still played (Im not sure when though). It’s heavily advertised in TNT magazine.

Al said  | April 29th 2008 @ 7:46pm | Report comment

Not missing a trick mate, just letting you know that it was still going. Didnt realise that you we having a subtle dig!

Midfielder said  | April 29th 2008 @ 9:34pm | Report comment

Ian Noble

Love you mate you just made my day ——— I have not had a bad day but not good neither.

BUT mate thank you LOL you said from London —————– referring to AFL ——–” It used to receive a lot of publicity elsewhere but that seems to have died, hence my enquiry whether it still took place” ROFL.

Ian Noble said  | April 30th 2008 @ 2:57am | Report comment

Redb

Years ago just cold showers!

Treizistes said  | April 30th 2008 @ 9:26am | Report comment

Westy and AL.

Russia has a top League with 10 teams, but below this you have a second division, all teams have juniors, the numbers are around 10,000 players all up.

In France you have the LER 1 and LER 2, but outside these two semi pro comps, you have another 60-70 clubs all playing in regions, from Paris to the Spanish border, there is no team called Paris over in France for RL because much like Sydney and Melbourne, the RL sides use suburban names like you have out here with Parramatta or Collingwood, all clubs are able to climb to pyramid and get into the next tier until they eventually reach the LER or even SL, yes, just like the English RL, France has Promotion-Relegation..

Last year there were 27,000 registered players in France, and the reports I’ve seen this year have already jumped up 50% on last years growth which was a record since before the second WW.

3 years ago, this number was just under 10,000, since Les Catalans have been involved, well, you can see the difference.

Now MC and redb, would you stop with the constant bullshit you two come out with?

We know you two know everything about every footy code on earth, it’s getting very boring, stick to the fumbleball, at least when you talk your crap about that, we know it’s all crap, that’s why we take no notice of it.

You do not know anything about RL, you may read something here or there, but hey, a lot of BS can get posted on a forum, and I can see you two muppets love the degrading, putting down, or kicking of RL.

Big Footy is waiting for you, they are missing their two biggest village idiots.

Treizistes said  | April 30th 2008 @ 9:40am | Report comment

If RL is so bad moron, hows AwFuL around the world, deadset, for someone who follows AwFuL to put the boot into any other sport is hilarious, again, only a dickhead would agree with you.

Redb said  | April 30th 2008 @ 4:32pm | Report comment

:Treizistes said | Today

If RL is so bad moron, hows AwFuL around the world, deadset, for someone who follows AwFuL to put the boot into any other sport is hilarious, again, only a dickhead would agree with you.”

Why don’t just have a big cry Take a teaspoon of cement and harden the &%#@ up.

Redb

Al said  | April 30th 2008 @ 7:21pm | Report comment

Treizistes,

Out of curiousity where did the figure of 10 000 for Russia come from? Im not being critical just curious. Ive looked at Wikipedia (I know, I know) and they say that it is less than 5000. I’d love to have a look if you could post a link.

John Ryan said  | May 1st 2008 @ 8:28am | Report comment

The wit and humor of Sir Echo comes shining through again,you think(though sometimes I wonder)that your posts on here say anything apart from a general tone of abuse of people who disagree with your views are any better.
Back in Bunker boy

Michael C said  | May 1st 2008 @ 9:49am | Report comment

Dave -

the Isolation comment.

A little too easy just to write it off due to Isolation.

in that, the presence of Sydney and it’s choice to go down the Rugby path - provided plenty of reason for the Melbourne game - that, after all Mr.Fagan asserts was little different to Rugby for the first 10 years - - well, surely, one would have expected the Melbourne game to just fall in line with Sydney, England and the ‘true game of rugby’. Surely?

It was not so much isolation (until between WWI and WWII) - rather it was timing plus the wealth and growth due to the gold rush plus the fact that Melb and Vic were not convict settlements with effectively British military rule and therefore a population more beholden to the crown. The Gold Rush pushed the Melb population well above that of Sydney (at the time), and we know that at one point the population of Victoria was 20% Irish, as well, many US and Chinese had come out. All these people NOT owing allegiance to the English proper public schools. So - during this time - it was infact that Melbourne was LESS isolated by attracting a broader wave of immigration than just from within the regular ‘Empire’.

So - it’s more that an unblighted, unblinkered wave of immigartion occurred - - that helped develop an ethos of self determination, of independance (you might still claim that as ‘isolation’). And, all this at a time when London and Sheffield were still using different rules and the RFU was still a few years away. At this point - isolation or not, that had NOTHING to do with it.

However - the ‘isolation’ mentality of those in Sydney trying desperately to retain strong links to their English homeland - - that probably played a key role in the development of Rugby in Sydney. And the isolation of Sydney - such that immigration was limited to mainly English ‘patriots’ ensured that such a mentality could hold sway. I’d suggest therefore, that the late 1800s isolation of Sydney drove a conservative mantra such that the people in power were unchallenged in the main in clawing to the coat tails of mother England. Whilst the opposite happening in Melbourne and Victoria.

And would the Sydney folk ever allow themselves to fall in line with Melbourne? Of course not. The presence of so many non-Empire loving immigrants made the more British folk highly suspicious. Revolution - as evidence in France and the US especially - made the Brits very nervous - -and so after the Eureka Stockage - - could you imagine those in authority in Sydney ever allowing Melbourne based ‘culture’ to gain widespread acceptance. Of course not. As has been quoted, the game of ‘Victorian Rules’ had no hope, far better that it be called ‘Swiss Rules’. In essence, the reality isolation and fear within Sydney worked against Aust Footy on the national scale.

Isolation or not - - the Great War actually hindered Aust Footy - - the loss of men in both New Zealand and other areas of Australia - ensured that Aust Footy was not able to regain it’s ground post WWI. So - whilst the intervening period between the wars may have allowed a greater ‘local’ consolidation - - so too did it curtail growth and allow the new game of RL to consolidate in Sydney and allow Sydney to further blockade Brisbane and dominate her ‘cultural’ development - - a curse she has yet to recover from……

btw - the US - - isolated? or, just independant? They evolved Rugby too, into something more acceptable for adults - well, certainly Teddy Roosevelt put it to them that they had to shape up the rules or ship out the game.

Michael C said  | May 1st 2008 @ 10:30am | Report comment

John Ryan -

‘disagree’?!?!??!

Please then,

state your contrary position,

state your counter argument,

provide some proof, a link, some numbers, a quote or to by means of references……

You’ve given us nothing - - and, once again you’ve proven MY point regarding you.

Goodbye.

Realist said  | May 1st 2008 @ 1:17pm | Report comment

Joh Ryan, how dare you offer up another comment, surely you know by now that this is an AFL thread and as such has nothing to do with you or anyone else in the world who isn’t beholden to the altar of Aussie Rules. Please take your opinions and exit stage left or you may have to scroll through another wall of irrelevant text.

MC do peoples eyes glaze over as you talk to them? If you verbosity here is any indication of your propensity to waffle I can imagine you finish a lot of converstions alone. Seriously, you should try linking out to some of the info you post rather than just regurtitating it onto every page. Plus, you still haven’t told us if those comments I posted are yours.

john Ryan said  | May 1st 2008 @ 2:28pm | Report comment

Speaking of lemmings Echo,takes one to know one,do you and Michael C share the same room,cause one writes the other like death, taxes and lemmings is sure to follow,Logic, gotta love that,I think you and Logic are like ships that pass in the night Echo

Michael C said  | May 1st 2008 @ 3:23pm | Report comment

Realist -

I have stated before, and I continue to state - I AM NOT MICHAEL CLARKE. I have no idea to whom or from where you refer to this person.

You are off your rocker - - and, just ask Redb or most the fellows on the SMH flog - they know (if they took note of the flog A-League dream team game) what my surname is. And it sure as heck ain’t Clarke.

(tip - my parents are Danish - - you go figure)

Was is it or was it NOT you who present this :

“The garbage was in reference to the “polished crap” comment, but feel free to apply it to any of your comments if it suits you. ”

To which I draw your attention to the line of the thread that lead to that:

Joseph Merrick said | April 24th 2008 @ 8:11am

Michael C said | April 24th 2008 @ 12:38pm

Al said | April 24th 2008 @ 11:39pm

Michael C said | April 28th 2008 @ 9:11am (3 days ago)
cheers Al,
normally, it’s simply a case of ‘crap in, crap out’….in this case, it was ‘polished crap out’.;-)

And so, the final comment about ‘polished crap out’ was in pure reference to MY OWN output.

I have absolutely no idea what you’ve been smoking to attack me about this,

let alone your severe case of mistaken identity - -which, I will pay you at least the respect of being willing to forgive you some of you diatribe that you’ve dished up towards me - -

if you wish - I’ll allow you a blank page, ….. a fresh start - - display to me that you can converse on here in a useful and constructive manner….

btw - from what I’ve heard/seen that you’ve presented - - I would never condone the comments of one Michael Clarke - - he is typical of the rubbish that J.Ryan and at times yourself have been meting out.

Redb said  | May 2nd 2008 @ 7:16am | Report comment

Treiztstes,

“And AL, if you want any info about Russian Rugby League, head into the International section of Leagueunlimited, there are heaps of people there that post about the game from all over the joint and who would only be to happy to help you out and have a good conversation without the AFL muppets kicking up a stink.”

You’ve hit the nail on the head finally, this is actually a thread about AFL and its tiny international footprint, its not about rugby league, there are other threads and forums to discuss rugby league. Go forth.

“as soon as someone has a crack at the almighty fumbleball”

You don’t think these types of comments might just get a reaction, especially on an AFL thread? - is this is not bagging AFL? Sounds pretty hypocritcal to me. If you give it be prepared to take it.

Most of the rubgy league posters on AFL threads have no real intention to debate the issues, these lemmings are just happy to make spurious claims about what AFL posters are saying or bag the sport. For example: AFL and world domination - show me one example on this thead where any AFL poster has suggested the AFL is on track for world domination! If anything this thread in particular is bemoaning the lack of international footprint and the need for AFL to expand.

This is what is being discussed, if you have anything sueful to say other than AFL is fumbeball freee feel to comment, you can even say AFL may never exapnd internationallu if you back it up with an argument. But don’t give us puerile rubbish about the game from the point of view of a one -eyed rugby league fan, your just exposing an insecurity.

Redb

Redb said  | May 2nd 2008 @ 8:40am | Report comment

Australian Footy keeps developing in South Africa, report below from Wrold Footy news:

Australian Football truly is growing rapidly in South Africa, with Western Cape one of the newest regions but already boasting a four team competition to add to their junior clinics program. The finals of their inaugural season (the year will be split into multiple seasons), dubbed footyWILD Extreme, have just finished, with Khayelitsha Divines challenging favourites the Nyanga Thunderstorm in a closely fought battle. The region has also secured sponsorship and the assistance of The Salamander Company to help with promotion - the following report is courtesy of them:

Western Cape footyWILD Extreme Season 1, 2008 Finals Results - footyWILD the game that roars!

Last Sunday, the 20th April 2008, four local township teams competed in the inaugural finals of the footyWILD Extreme competition in Cape Town.

There was an exciting and tense atmosphere at the Khayelitsha Cricket Oval where the Nyanga Blue Birds won against the Khayelitsha Real Kangaroos in the Plate Final while ultimately the Khayelitsha Divines were crowned the footyWILD Extreme Premiers, Season 1, against the Nyanga Thunderstorm.

The Premiership was not won without drama however, the first quarter was very tense with both teams trying hard to gain the ascendancy. The top players in both teams were heavily marked by their opponents, making it difficult for either team to dominate the mid field. At the end of the first quarter, the Nyanga Thunderstorm were in front by 1 point.

The second quarter was tough for both teams. Scoring opportunities were rare, with each team scoring 1 goal a piece by half time. A point scored in the dying minutes of the second quarter by the Khayelitsha Divines meant that scores were even at the half time break.

The third quarter was an emotionally charged affair as each team tried desperately to pull ahead on the score board. However, the third quarter, often regarded as the “Premiership Quarter” in Australia, belonged to Khayelitsha Divines. They scored 1 goal, 2 points - to a solitary point to the Nyanga Thunderstorm and it seemed that the unbelievable would happen. Nyanga Thunderstorm had been unbeaten and dominant all season. Only an administrative error had forced them into the position of potentially losing the Premiership.

With only 7 points separating them at the third quarter break, both coaches tried hard to motivate their players to give everything they had in the last quarter. The Nyanga Thunderstorm fought valiantly in the last quarter, scoring a goal early on to put them only 1 point behind the Khayelitsha Divines. Desperately trying to hold on to their lead, the Khayelitsha Divines pushed forward but managed only to score a behind, pushing the margin to 2 points. In the dying minutes, the Nyanga Thunderstorm put everything they had into one last attack.

When the final siren sounded at the end of the game, the Khayelitsha Divines had snatched victory by only 1 point. The celebrations were legendary, with players hugging each other in disbelief. Crushed and broken, the Nyanga Thunderstorm players shook hands with their opponents and gathered sadly around their coach. The Season 1 2008 Premiership belonged to the Khayelitsha Divines, proving that in this great game of footy, it all comes down to how you play on the day.

Western Cape footyWILD Development Officer Allison Simons said “I am very pleased that the last game of the season was such a close and exciting game. It goes to show that the competition is very even and that there is a lot of passion for this new and exciting sport. Congratulations to the Khayelitsha Divines, who ended up being the better team on the day and deserve to hold the Premiership Trophy up high. Commiserations to Nyanga Thunderstorm, who having dominated the competition all season, were unable to clinch victory in the end. Season 2 2008 starts in a few weeks time and I am sure they will get their opportunity then”.

Thunderstorm Coach, Siya Mamkeli said “As I expected, it was a very tough game. My boys put up a good fight but because we were missing many of our key players on the day, we were disadvantaged in terms of height and experience. We didn’t use the opportunities we were presented with properly and this is why we lost the game. Although I am sad to have lost the Premiership, I am excited about the future of footy in Nyanga. More and more people want to get involved and we are attracting attention in other communities. The sport will flourish in the next few years”.

After the win, the Khayelitsha Divines Coach, Xolani Nyembeny said, “We are very excited to be the Season 1 2008 footyWILD Extreme Premiers. We never expected to win but I told my players to hold their heads high and never give in. In the end, it worked and we won a good and hard game. I want to tell the other young people out there, come and join us! Come and find out about this new sport called footy and join in the excitement!”

In the Plate Final, the Nyanga Blue Birds were 18 points ahead at half time. The Real Kangaroos put in a spirited fight in the third quarter but the Blue Birds’ coordinated attack was too much for them and they conceded 5 goals, managing only 2 of their own goals. In the end, the Nyanga Blue Birds were victorious beating the Real Kangaroos by 44 points to finish third on the Western Cape FootyWILD Extreme ladder.

The Association for the Reduction of Tobaacco-related Harm (ARTH), AusAID (the Australian Government’s Agency for International Development) and Costa Logistics support AFL South Africa and footyWILD in the Western Province.

Event Results

When: Sunday 20th April 2008
Where: Khayelitsha Cricket Oval, Town 2, Khayelitsha

Premiership

Final scores: Khayelitsha Divines won against the Nyanga Thunderstorm in the Premiership Final

Khayelitsha Divines 4.6 (30)
Nyanga Thunderstorm 4.5 (29)

Goal kickers:
Khayelitsha Divines: Thembelani Jwara 2; Momelezi Nyembenya, Bayanda Sobetwa 1.
Nyanga Thunderstorm: Abongile Kolanisi, Mxolisi Sokomane, Justin Miller, Yonela Kabase 1

Plate Final

Final scores: The Nyanga Blue Birds beat the Real Kangaroos to finish third in the Western Cape footyWILD Extreme Final.

Nyanga Blue Birds 12.14 (86 )
Khayelitsha Real Kangaroos 6.6 (42)

Top goal scorers:
Nyanga Blue Birds: Khaya Sikiti 4; Dylan Heneck, Zimase Mangali, 2
Khayelitsha Real Kangaroos: Vuyani Gqiba, Sikhulile Gamakhulu 2.

Awards: Best & Fairest: Justin Miller (Award for best Player in the Competition)
Runner-up Best & Fairest: Bayanda Sobetwa
Top Goal Kicker: Justin Miller (Award for Player who scored the most goals)
Encouragement Award (Senior): Lwazi Jawe
Encouragement Award (Junior): Prince Foloti
Outstanding Contribution to footyWILD Extreme: Wayne Miller & Andrew Smith

Zac Zavos said  | May 2nd 2008 @ 9:26am | Report comment

Guys - can I please remind all that The Roar aims to be different from other sites by playing the ball and not the player; and allowing for healthy debate across all sports.

Respect each other’s opinions please - or join another forum where flaming in the norm.

Zac
The Roar

Redb said  | May 2nd 2008 @ 10:29am | Report comment

Nigel Lopez-McBean,

In the main the AFL is focusing on footy outside of VIc, SA, WA with most of its resources aimed at the domestic marketeg: Gold Coast, western Sydney.

What is interesting about South Africa is that it probably the only country where the AFL is seriously looking at expanding the game and ahs thrown some money at junior development. Msot other footy developments overseas is coming originally from expat started leagues that have grown and captued some locals along the way.

AFL is certainly not going to be an overnight sensation internationally, but it does have a very small and growing international footprint nonetheless.

Redb

Zac said  | May 2nd 2008 @ 11:50am | Report comment

RedB - I sent you a note re: some of these comments but your email bounces. Can you get in touch to discuss (http://www.theroar.com.au/tip-us-off)?

Michael C said  | May 2nd 2008 @ 1:08pm | Report comment

Millster -

You said:

“MC and RedB (same person I wonder!?!) crapping on about AFL irrespective of the topic ”

on the AFL tab!!!!

Well - that just goes to show your mindset - - the world has gone crazy!!!

Or - did you enjoy carte blanche on attacking the AFL before Redb and myself came along - - perhaps you prefer your security of having no one dispute you????

Joe FC said  | May 2nd 2008 @ 1:25pm | Report comment

Michael C
No credible historian would support your statement concerning his forebears ( The Roar rightly have undertaken some delayed editing ). If you wish to have some of your statements not taken seriously then don’t refer to a shameful period of human history.

Norm said  | May 2nd 2008 @ 1:27pm | Report comment

Well said Millster.

The Link said  | May 2nd 2008 @ 1:57pm | Report comment

RedB, no comment either way on the crapping on, more pointing out that Michael C missed Millsters comment that specifically mentioned the AFL tab. Don’t know whether he did that deliberately or not.

Michael C said  | May 2nd 2008 @ 2:11pm | Report comment

Let me show examples:

the first I heard from Realist:

Realist said | April 23rd 2008 @ 3:47pm (2 weeks ago)
Michael C is pretty typical of an AwFuL supporters attitude, carried through to the brink of insanity admittedly, but there is that same air of self importance about the game everywhere,

and why did he enter the thread with such a demeanour?

because he thought I was someone called Michael Clarke - - with whom he seems to carry a major grudge.

And - yet, Realist was permitted to go on, and on, and on - without contributing to discussion - - simply abusing me for who I wasn’t?!!?!?

Michael C said  | May 2nd 2008 @ 2:16pm | Report comment

and along came
Treizistes said | April 30th 2008 @ 9:26am (2 days ago)

………who entered the thread at a late point on the premise of discussing Rugby League in Russia - - his first few paragraphs were about RL in Russia - ( I think he must have thought he was on the RL tab??) - - and then, to acknowledge Redb and myself - who discuss AFL on an AFL tab - he provided the following class A introduction:

Now MC and redb, would you stop with the constant bullshit you two come out with?
We know you two know everything about every footy code on earth, it’s getting very boring, stick to the fumbleball, at least when you talk your crap about that, we know it’s all crap, that’s why we take no notice of it.

how ever the supposed moderator let that through, I don’t know.

Do you wonder why I was starting to get a little narky?

Redb said  | May 2nd 2008 @ 3:58pm | Report comment

MC

Spot on.

looking forward to the Carlton V West Coast game tonight, should be a cracker.

Redb

Joe FC said  | May 2nd 2008 @ 8:00pm | Report comment

Michael C
You are entitled to your opinion on any matter that you care to comment on. What you are not entitled to do is portray yourself as a victim, which is what this -:

” I - with a heavy heart - invoked the name of a much despised figure of history - -

and finally some moderators attention has come our way - - -

and now - it appears that’s where the line is drawn…..

But - clearly - it can be seen that there’s no limit on false accussation, insulting and name calling, effectively cyber bullying……

alas - Joe FC - General Eisenhower would be dismayed - he actually encouraged as much documentation, including via film and photograph - - just so that history couldn’t be slid under the carpet (and then questioned, and then disproved).”

is all about.
You introduced the Nazi megalomaniac in an inappropriate context. You repeated the historical lie concerning his ancestry ( which Roar subsequently if belatedly removed ). You, like me & ever other blogger on this site, have to accept the consequences of your actions.

John Ryan said  | May 3rd 2008 @ 12:35am | Report comment

Right O Zolton,no worries. it was fun while it lasted.

Michael C said  | May 4th 2008 @ 1:16pm | Report comment

“There are many other ways that football can develop going into the future. These are only a few. What should the AFL, and the various international bodies do in to the future?”

True state of origin carnival every 4 years - -

with 18 teams and presumably MORE players from QLD and NSW - -

Incorporate this carnival perhaps with the International Cup - - allowing the top 2 teams to participate - in the ‘lower’ division - perhaps vs ACT, NT, NSW and or Tassie.

Push a junior International Cup - -
the whole concept that a kid playing AFL over summer in NZ with dreams of playing for the All-Blacks might suddenly represent NZ in U17s or whatever - - and find that he’s actually better suited to AFL……miss him at this point, and it’ll be too late.

Paul said  | May 10th 2008 @ 6:35pm | Report comment

I was reading the World Footy News site, in particular their 2004 World Footy Census. Back then, the numbers in most countries were fairly low.

(For a summary of the 2004 census: http://www.worldfootynews.com/article.php?story=20050301074107992 )

At the time the only two countries worth noting significantly were New Zealand and Papua New Guinea. New Zealand had 11 226 players (10 690 were junior players) and Papua New Guinea had 9 920 players (8000 were junior). In 2008 World Footy News report that South Africa now has 10 000 players and that the business plan is to raise that to 30 000 within three years. Considering that back in 2004 there were only 700 players in South Africa, this growth curve seems exponential.

Does anyone know how many players there are in New Zealand or Papua New Guinea now?

I wonder if there is a greater void to be filled in South Africa that such rapid growth has occurred, where as, it is my guess that the numbers in NZ may have stayed fairly static over the same time period.

Paul said  | May 10th 2008 @ 6:54pm | Report comment

I said Richmond, because then New Zealand would have a chance of winning.

Paul said  | May 11th 2008 @ 11:52am | Report comment

We’re on a different thread here. “Australia is not enough” is more of a positive thread towards the AFL.

The posting by Joe O’ Sullivan about international expansion was a negative post on the AFL tab, this was provocative of him, he was picking a fight.

We can continue the discussion there:

http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/03/18/afl-international-expansion-wont-happen-soon/

Or we can just say, we proved that this assumption of his was wrong, and we also debated well against the detractors, and continue with a more positive thread here. I would kind of like to come at the topic positively anyway. I haven’t seen anybody posting negative stories about soccer on their tab.

I have been reading more about the expansion of the game. There was an article in the Age about Footy in Samoa.

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/tough-love-samoa-dives-into-football/2008/05/10/1210131331508.html

Aaron Edwards being the first Samoan to play the AFL, he believes that there will certainly be more to follow. The article talks about the Samoans playing an exciting breed of football, and packs of 10 players contesting marks, no holes barred. The article also speaks of 4 000 Samoan kids participating in footy clinics.

The thing that is striking me is that the numbers are increasing fast, year by year in some countries. A few years ago, there was little participation in Samoa to speak of, now there could be a real recruiting pool there. The more that are recruited, the more will become interested in the game. I can see this happening all across the Pacific, PNG and NZ. So I think, the days of international expansion are really only just beginning. There are exciting times ahead.

How many years will it take until there are consistently 20+ players from these countries in the AFL? That is another question. But if that does happen, then there will be a big enough injection in the player pool for the AFL to place teams where ever they want. There certainly must be a limit to the number of teams that could exist in the AFL, but in the long term I see no reason why that couldn’t be even 4 teams in Sydney.

As far as a state/ country of origin series is concerned, once there are a minimum number of players then teams could be entered. Drew Morphett was pushing for a four year carnival on the ABC last night. I think this has some merit and the AFL should consider it. But as soon as a country has enough decent players for a team, whether that be 10 AFL players plus other locals or a full 18 or 21 AFL players, then I would like to see end of season exhibition matches: South Africa vs West Coast in Cape Town, Durban and Johannesburg; New Zealand vs Sydney in Auckland, Wellington and Christ Church etc. Once the local fans have someone they can really cheer for, then the interest in the sport will sky rocket locally.

It’s only a matter of time.

Redb said  | May 11th 2008 @ 2:33pm | Report comment

Dave,

Went to the game, great skills, Fevola starred, great atmosphere with jsut under 70,000.

Redb

Paul said  | May 11th 2008 @ 5:38pm | Report comment

Koala Bear,

Next time you are in Melbourne, say for the A-League Grand Final or something, then you should head down to the MCC Museum and have a look (not at the 1858 letter) but at the 1859 rules. The 1859 rules are at the MCC Museum. Please don’t get the two mixed up.

And yes, I am serious. Otherwise you have no grounds to your argument.

Enjoy your soccer.

Dave said  | May 11th 2008 @ 6:22pm | Report comment

Redb

As l said didn’t watch it so my only reference was friends that did and the newspaper. Both siad it was a bit flat and even Michael C referred to same in his post…however l wasn’t there so accept your point. A true 150th celebration with all the history behind the AFL/VFL should have more than 70,000 should be 100,000 with meaningful game (IMO the final of a round robin series 3 matches in total Vic,SA, WA and either Eastern Aus team with Tassie or Aboriginal Allstar as 4th team 2 x semis and then winners playoff)
BTW How could it be a good game with no Essendon players??

Paul said  | May 11th 2008 @ 6:43pm | Report comment

Could we please get back to talking about Aussie Rules, this is an AFL tab. All this talk about soccer….. yawn…..

Paul said  | May 11th 2008 @ 7:54pm | Report comment

Hi Dave,

I listened to the game on the internet last night. I remember attending State of Origin games in earlier years. When ever the Big V appears there is always a buzz. But to be playing against a non-representative side is anti-climactic. I don’t see how it is fair to leave out WA and SA, from such a celebration. (Although I remain unconvinced that the celebration should actually be this year- I understand the arguments for and against).

So, I’m not surprised that there wasn’t a full stadium for a game that essentially meant nothing.

If there were a carnival every four years with every state represented, then it would carry some weight.

Perhaps a good fixture would look like this:

Week one:
A: SA v NT
B: WA v ACT
C: VIC v TAS
D: QLD v NSW

(I know there is an argument for having games that are close to even, but the three main seeds would not play each other in week 1)

Week 2
E: Winner A v Winner B
F: Winner C v Winner D

Week 3
Winner E v Winner F

I look forward to the day, no matter how many years off when this carnival can be extended to include teams from South Africa, Papua New Guinea, New Zealand, Samoa, and perhaps more. It might not be a world cup, but it would give AFL supporters the buzz of watching representative footy that means something. Some of these games could of course be scheduled internationally. The tournament could be held in October. A tradition needs to be built up for the prize to really count. Players not selected in the carnival could play an exhibition game or two for their club in less developed areas- I am guessing that Canada and the US will still need some help.

Nevertheless, I would have loved to be a the game last night.

Joe O'Sullivan said  | May 11th 2008 @ 8:01pm | Report comment

“The posting by Joe O’ Sullivan about international expansion was a negative post on the AFL tab, this was provocative of him, he was picking a fight” Paul you are free to draw your conclusions from what I write but do not presume to know my intentions. The Roar moderators determine under which tab submitted articles appear. I seem to recall you telling Roar bloggers that you were waging a campaign against Soccer. Were you being provocative? Were you picking a fight?

Paul said  | May 11th 2008 @ 8:41pm | Report comment

Hi Joe,

Yes, I have to admit that I too was being provocative and picking a fight. But after debating on here for a little while now, I can see that is a fruitless path to go down. So I have already retracted my approach to out and out trash talk soccer.

It is far better if I, and others can find a healthy way to debate. I have apologised previously for unfounded comments I made against Football-soccer, but if some missed those, then I am sorry to you aswell.

Joe, your original post seemed to have a swipe at AFL supporters on two counts:

1) We claim Aussie Rules as the truly Australian sport.

2) If we insist on number 1, then we should avoid number 2, which is to seek to expand the game internationally.

For those of us, from the southern states, we do attach a great deal of pride, tradition and patriotism to the game of Aussie Rules. You may not have spelt it out completely, but it is important for us to respect the traditions of NSW and QLD. NSW and QLD undoubtedly have their stronger traditions of Rugby Union and League than they do of Aussie Rules, even though Aussie Rules was still played in both states from very early on.

So it is natural for those of us from the southern states to want to share the game with others around the world. When we are in other countries we love to have a kick and even a game when ever we can. Some of this enthusiasm does spill over to others and even catches on to have local roots. But as much as respect is shown in other parts of the world, it is important to show this same respect in NSW and QLD. I think there is a way that the traditional Australian codes can co-exist.

You went on to say:
“I don’t think anything is about to unfold – or ever will. I fear that my AFL loving fellow Australians are experiencing a false dawn. Because after 150 years (or so we’re told) aussie rules football has failed to conquer NSW and Qld let alone planet Earth.”

First of all Joe, the reason that Aussie Rules did not expand in the early years, was because Australia was a little backwater of the British Empire at the end of the world, practically on the next planet. Nothing out of Australia was going to influence the world. Much of the world had never even heard of Australia until the 1956 Olympics. So it isn’t really a fair crack to say we have already had 150 years of opportunities to spread our game. As far as conquering anything is concerned, perhaps that is not the way we should be talking. We are talking about traditions and culture here. For either the Rugby or Aussie Rules traditions to be lost from Australia would be a real shame. So let’s not talk of conquering.

As far as international expansion is concerned, once again, we are not talking of conquering the world, but rather of healthy expansion of the recruiting pool.

Just a few figures:

2004 registered players:
NZ: 10 000
PNG: 9 000
South Africa: 700
Samoa: 246

2008 registered players:
NZ: 16 000 (very healthy growth)
PNG: 30 000 (extremely rapid growth)
South Africa: 10 000 (astronomical growth).
Samoa: 4000 + (rapid growth)

I think we can look forward to a time not too far away when there will be a lot of recruitment for the AFL from the Oceania region and South Africa. This may not be world domination, but it is international expansion. Otherwise, how would you define it?

Paul said  | May 11th 2008 @ 8:46pm | Report comment

Koala Bear,

I’m glad to hear that you are saving for your ticket to Melbourne, good show.

As for me, I am researching all sides of the 1858, 1859, 1866, 1877 debate over Aussie Rules. I will continue to have an open mind. I hope that you can too.

Paul.

Redb said  | May 11th 2008 @ 9:29pm | Report comment

Dave,

The atmosphere was different but still really good, plenty of support for the Vics - a fairly young crowd. The skills on display were fantastic, nothing better than Judd passing to Goodes who passes to Jono Brown. t The passion was a bit different our first love is for the club, so at times the crowd say the Hawthorn section were secretly hoping Buddy Franklin did well or Cam mooney for Geelong,etc. Club support is still king in AFL. So rather than cheer against these guys the crowd was quieter. However, anytime a Vic got the ball the crowd went nuts. Fevola’s mark in the first qtr was a classic that got everyone out of their seat. Its the reason you go to the footy.

The roar after the National anthem was vintage MCG, but so to for some great marks, Fevola’s several, J Brown, etc and some goal snaps that sent the crowd off. Players really had a crack, good hard footy.

re Vic v Dream team - it was the only choice for a one off.

re future state games, every 4 years, Vics v SA or WA. That will work.

Redb

Paul said  | May 11th 2008 @ 10:33pm | Report comment

Dave,

Yes, AFL is a club game and has always been. I guess there’s not a lot of point denying that in the short term. I for one, still hope there can be a carnival of some sort in the future, even if it means stretching the season a little every four years. But, the two week plan has some merits. It’s a pity that there are 3 strong states, when we really need four. I guess this is where the idea of divisions could work, but then that would require the event to happen more than every four years. I just don’t like the idea of a combined NSW/ QLD/ TAS side. That’s just as bad as the Dream Team. Perhaps this is why the AFL just found it easier to go with the International Rules against Ireland, for some representative footy each year. Perhaps it will have to wait a little longer until QLD and NSW can come up with some competition.

Midfielder said  | May 11th 2008 @ 10:46pm | Report comment

In Melbourne press today, article by Rod Curtis | May 11, 2008 the last bits reproduced below differ from posts above.

My guess is Sheehan would know his stuff.

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/pacific-nations-bemoan-afl-neglect/2008/05/10/1210131343495.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

Sheehan said the AFL could not ignore its “massive chance” to grow the game in South Africa. “We talk about the 48 million (population) for a start, of which 38 million are black people, who, due to apartheid and various things, have been denied sporting opportunity … The South Africans have a natural flair for our type of game, and they love sport. Soccer doesn’t invest a lot in its junior development, so there is a clear opportunity.”

Sheehan said that 35,000 people in 32 countries were now playing Australian football overseas.

Paul said  | May 11th 2008 @ 11:27pm | Report comment

Red B,

Yes you are entirely correct in saying that the AFL’s main game is expansion in Australia. I simply enjoy speculating about what will be some ways down the track. Some people prefer to focus on the present.

It is interesting to see the AFL put funding into running Auskick in South Africa, Samoa and China.

Personally, I think they should put their dollars where there is already some organic growth. So I find it a little presumptuous of the AFL to fund China ahead of other countries. Surely PNG deserves this funding more than China does. It kind of reminds me of the ICC. The ICC have give millions to China, and at the same time denied Kenya test status. The argument that the ICC make against Kenya is that their cricket grounds are not good enough for test matches. If the ICC simply gave the money to Kenya instead of China, this issue would be solved.

All major sporting bodies have their eye on Chinese dollars and will behave unethically to get a hold of it. I guess this exposes my criticism of FIFA, since the AFL deserve some criticism here too.

But the AFL are right to fund the countries where there is organic growth, and give them every chance of expanding as much as possible.

As for the GAA, I think they should turn professional. This still won’t stop players taking an offer from an AFL team if it is higher.