70K (free tickets or not) was a good turn up (btw – I wish I knew where to find these ‘free’ tickets when they’re floating around).

I watched it at home in the end – - too sore after footy that day – hard ground and much ice required on knees (the whole R.I.C.E thing).

There was zero ‘opposition’ support (discernable) on the tele. Channel 10 was crap. I think they’d turned down the crowd noise anyway, and kept wanting to focus on talking to the coaches and their super crappy supposedly pioneering umpire cams etc – - what a load of amateur rubbish – - perhaps tv broadcast rights are gauging too great a chunk out of them if that’s the best they can come up with. That was just sheer embarrassment.

I could imagine – at the ground – the atmosphere would’ve been a whole lot different to what the tv conveyed – - i.e. partisan support for the Vics by all these folk in different club jumpers (but, support their ‘club’ reps in the Dream Team) – - – everyone just holding their breath for no major injuries.

I was happy at home to see Boomer Harvey fly the flag for North Melb, I thought he did some very important work, and was a nice tangible link to the last SoO game and is still the reigning E.J.Whitten medalist.

Alas, on that front – Channel 10 let us down by NOT showing the presentations – - some twit at the control panel in Sydney stuffed up.

Alas – not sure ALL the players should’ve swapped jumpers – - although, I gather they all personally had 2 jumpers on the night – one for each half, so, that effectively allowed them to swap jumpers.

The game play – - it was amazing, the skill, the general lack of turn overs – - the end to end plays – - and Adam Goodes was apparently just blown away by Richo on the wing – - Goodes was very pleasantly surprised that the DT’s had pushed Richo forward for the 2nd qtr – ‘cos Goodes was struggling to keep up.

Yes you are entirely correct in saying that the AFL’s main game is expansion in Australia. I simply enjoy speculating about what will be some ways down the track. Some people prefer to focus on the present.

It is interesting to see the AFL put funding into running Auskick in South Africa, Samoa and China.

Personally, I think they should put their dollars where there is already some organic growth. So I find it a little presumptuous of the AFL to fund China ahead of other countries. Surely PNG deserves this funding more than China does. It kind of reminds me of the ICC. The ICC have give millions to China, and at the same time denied Kenya test status. The argument that the ICC make against Kenya is that their cricket grounds are not good enough for test matches. If the ICC simply gave the money to Kenya instead of China, this issue would be solved.

All major sporting bodies have their eye on Chinese dollars and will behave unethically to get a hold of it. I guess this exposes my criticism of FIFA, since the AFL deserve some criticism here too.

But the AFL are right to fund the countries where there is organic growth, and give them every chance of expanding as much as possible.

As for the GAA, I think they should turn professional. This still won’t stop players taking an offer from an AFL team if it is higher.

For me the AFL’s push into GC and W Sydney is the number one expansion priority, they will support some international development, namely South Africa, PNG, but little else in the short to medium term.

The AFL knows it has to expand not only its revenue base (TV deal) buts its player pool as other codes potentially take a slice of VIC, SA & WA juniors. This is not happening to a great extent now as soccer junior numbers for example have always been big, however the AFL realises it needs to broaden its base. Its basic business strategy, expand or competitors will fill the void, grow strong and then expand into your patch.

Thus international expansion is nothing more than a side show to the real game for AFL, that is Aust expansion, two teams in each major capital city (population block).

The real interest for AFL fans is the organic growth in footy overseas that is happening without any substantial support from the AFL. These expats are like missionaries spreading the reilgion to various parts of the world – at the moment they are blokes looking for a kick and a beer afterwards. The junior programs in Canada and the US show more structure than a casual frothy with some mates. Interesting stuff.

Re GAA, the Irish are very concerned at the threat of the professional AFL game, there may even be parallels with rugby league and union, whilst union was still amatuer. I do not predict the demsie of GAA just a drain of player base unless the GAA looks at creating a professional league. Its not a rusted on belief, but as each International Rules match plays out and more and more AFl talent scouts head to where the little green men roam, the GAA’s angst heightens.

Redb

My guess is Sheehan would know his stuff.

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/pacific-nations-bemoan-afl-neglect/2008/05/10/1210131343495.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

Sheehan said the AFL could not ignore its “massive chance” to grow the game in South Africa. “We talk about the 48 million (population) for a start, of which 38 million are black people, who, due to apartheid and various things, have been denied sporting opportunity … The South Africans have a natural flair for our type of game, and they love sport. Soccer doesn’t invest a lot in its junior development, so there is a clear opportunity.”

Sheehan said that 35,000 people in 32 countries were now playing Australian football overseas.

Maybe it is not necessary for the AFL to expand internationally. But usually when something does not expand, it shrinks, things never stay the same.

Perhaps the AFL have plans for international expansion, foremost for the sake of recruitment. As they plan to add 17th and 18th teams, people are complaining that this will weaken the player pool too much and thus lower the standard of competition. But if there are more players from overseas, then this increases the player pool, and will re-adress the balance each time the AFL expand on the continent. I think it is safe to say that the AFL do have hopes to be the number one code in every state. Perhaps the AFL are the biggest instigator of the footy wars in Australia in modern times, although the FFA have certainly stepped up their challenge in the last few years.

We will probably be debating these issues as long as they exist in the market place.

Yes, AFL is a club game and has always been. I guess there’s not a lot of point denying that in the short term. I for one, still hope there can be a carnival of some sort in the future, even if it means stretching the season a little every four years. But, the two week plan has some merits. It’s a pity that there are 3 strong states, when we really need four. I guess this is where the idea of divisions could work, but then that would require the event to happen more than every four years. I just don’t like the idea of a combined NSW/ QLD/ TAS side. That’s just as bad as the Dream Team. Perhaps this is why the AFL just found it easier to go with the International Rules against Ireland, for some representative footy each year. Perhaps it will have to wait a little longer until QLD and NSW can come up with some competition.

The atmosphere was different but still really good, plenty of support for the Vics – a fairly young crowd. The skills on display were fantastic, nothing better than Judd passing to Goodes who passes to Jono Brown. t The passion was a bit different our first love is for the club, so at times the crowd say the Hawthorn section were secretly hoping Buddy Franklin did well or Cam mooney for Geelong,etc. Club support is still king in AFL. So rather than cheer against these guys the crowd was quieter. However, anytime a Vic got the ball the crowd went nuts. Fevola’s mark in the first qtr was a classic that got everyone out of their seat. Its the reason you go to the footy.

The roar after the National anthem was vintage MCG, but so to for some great marks, Fevola’s several, J Brown, etc and some goal snaps that sent the crowd off. Players really had a crack, good hard footy.

re Vic v Dream team – it was the only choice for a one off.

re future state games, every 4 years, Vics v SA or WA. That will work.

Redb

You cant come to Melb without taking in a game of the HAL 4 Champions MV!!
In respect of SFC and FL is there such a thing as Salary Cap??? Just cause Chelsea dont have one…SFC do and so will not be able to buy a Championship BTW you can have “Moses” although we like to refer to him as “Äverage Grant”

Midfielder

Sorry bout that but it appears KB got hold of it all and, as you can see from his posts above, has taken way too much. Dont think he will be able to get up early in the morning and even if he did there would not be any rejoicing

Paul

Dont think the AFL will ever give over 3 weeks to SOO, certainly not in season and it is doubtful too many players would be interested post season.
IMO 2 weeks in season is realistic. SA, Vic, WA and East Coast (including Tassie) Week 1 = 2 x semis (eg WA vs Vic and SA vs East Coast) Week 2 = 2 winners play off for championship at MCG. Simple and short but 3 meaningful games. NSW, Tassie, NT and Queensland are no where near strong enough for stand alone teams.

I’m glad to hear that you are saving for your ticket to Melbourne, good show.

As for me, I am researching all sides of the 1858, 1859, 1866, 1877 debate over Aussie Rules. I will continue to have an open mind. I hope that you can too.

Paul.

~~~~~~
KB

Yes, I have to admit that I too was being provocative and picking a fight. But after debating on here for a little while now, I can see that is a fruitless path to go down. So I have already retracted my approach to out and out trash talk soccer.

It is far better if I, and others can find a healthy way to debate. I have apologised previously for unfounded comments I made against Football-soccer, but if some missed those, then I am sorry to you aswell.

Joe, your original post seemed to have a swipe at AFL supporters on two counts:

1) We claim Aussie Rules as the truly Australian sport.

2) If we insist on number 1, then we should avoid number 2, which is to seek to expand the game internationally.

For those of us, from the southern states, we do attach a great deal of pride, tradition and patriotism to the game of Aussie Rules. You may not have spelt it out completely, but it is important for us to respect the traditions of NSW and QLD. NSW and QLD undoubtedly have their stronger traditions of Rugby Union and League than they do of Aussie Rules, even though Aussie Rules was still played in both states from very early on.

So it is natural for those of us from the southern states to want to share the game with others around the world. When we are in other countries we love to have a kick and even a game when ever we can. Some of this enthusiasm does spill over to others and even catches on to have local roots. But as much as respect is shown in other parts of the world, it is important to show this same respect in NSW and QLD. I think there is a way that the traditional Australian codes can co-exist.

You went on to say:
“I don’t think anything is about to unfold – or ever will. I fear that my AFL loving fellow Australians are experiencing a false dawn. Because after 150 years (or so we’re told) aussie rules football has failed to conquer NSW and Qld let alone planet Earth.”

First of all Joe, the reason that Aussie Rules did not expand in the early years, was because Australia was a little backwater of the British Empire at the end of the world, practically on the next planet. Nothing out of Australia was going to influence the world. Much of the world had never even heard of Australia until the 1956 Olympics. So it isn’t really a fair crack to say we have already had 150 years of opportunities to spread our game. As far as conquering anything is concerned, perhaps that is not the way we should be talking. We are talking about traditions and culture here. For either the Rugby or Aussie Rules traditions to be lost from Australia would be a real shame. So let’s not talk of conquering.

As far as international expansion is concerned, once again, we are not talking of conquering the world, but rather of healthy expansion of the recruiting pool.

Just a few figures:

2004 registered players:
NZ: 10 000
PNG: 9 000
South Africa: 700
Samoa: 246

2008 registered players:
NZ: 16 000 (very healthy growth)
PNG: 30 000 (extremely rapid growth)
South Africa: 10 000 (astronomical growth).
Samoa: 4000 + (rapid growth)

I think we can look forward to a time not too far away when there will be a lot of recruitment for the AFL from the Oceania region and South Africa. This may not be world domination, but it is international expansion. Otherwise, how would you define it?

Dave,
I don’t agree, Sydney FC are the club most likely to take out the FIFA world club Championship, before MVFC as it is written in the scrolls, says our billionaire owner Mr Frank Lowy.

The next Manager in line will be ex Chelsea’s manager “Moses” (as he likes to refer to him as)… “the challenge” creating history will soon be completed, after the Chelsea double, then after, “Moses” wants to aim a bit higher, when his present mission is completed i.e. after knocking over the real “Sottish One” and humiliating Manchester United.

Frank Lowy and “Moses” will be in deep communique after tomorrow morning. In what it will take to achieve this end.. As it has been reported; Roman has told Frank, if you want to achieve success, you just have to spend big time to get what you are entitled to; stating with the signing of Aloisi, the highest paid Footballer in Australian history of any code…

I am off to bed now to get up early in the morning to rejoice, when Chelsea takes its first step to making club history..

~~~~~~
KB

Are the nurses being kind ………………….. do we need to send food packages ………….. maybe you need some help …. sorry you do need help …………. Choppers the mega club ……………….. of something …….maybe ……. bling ……………… chopping prehaps …………. or circus type performance of choppers management.

I know , I know, choppers mega club of overstatements and under achieverments LOL.

KB you should know the true source of power lies a tad further north in the lakes, rivers, beaches, of the Central Coast.

PS Dave ………. don’t tell you have run out and did not share ………. shame on you ! ! !

I listened to the game on the internet last night. I remember attending State of Origin games in earlier years. When ever the Big V appears there is always a buzz. But to be playing against a non-representative side is anti-climactic. I don’t see how it is fair to leave out WA and SA, from such a celebration. (Although I remain unconvinced that the celebration should actually be this year- I understand the arguments for and against).

So, I’m not surprised that there wasn’t a full stadium for a game that essentially meant nothing.

If there were a carnival every four years with every state represented, then it would carry some weight.

Perhaps a good fixture would look like this:

Week one:
A: SA v NT
B: WA v ACT
C: VIC v TAS
D: QLD v NSW

(I know there is an argument for having games that are close to even, but the three main seeds would not play each other in week 1)

Week 2
E: Winner A v Winner B
F: Winner C v Winner D

Week 3
Winner E v Winner F

I look forward to the day, no matter how many years off when this carnival can be extended to include teams from South Africa, Papua New Guinea, New Zealand, Samoa, and perhaps more. It might not be a world cup, but it would give AFL supporters the buzz of watching representative footy that means something. Some of these games could of course be scheduled internationally. The tournament could be held in October. A tradition needs to be built up for the prize to really count. Players not selected in the carnival could play an exhibition game or two for their club in less developed areas- I am guessing that Canada and the US will still need some help.

Nevertheless, I would have loved to be a the game last night.

Just posted twice re Vic vs Dream Team!!!! No comment from you???

““the Mega Club” Sydney FC. The most likely Football club in Australia to take out the first FIFA World Club Championship; defeating Manchester United in the Final in Tokyo by the year 2018. After or before the FIFA World Cup Final in Australia, at a revamped rectangle MCG with a 120k audience with no doubt a 2billion TV audience around the world..”

As Midfielder once said to me, whatever you’re on l have some I do like the fact that Man U made the final but SFC??? By that stage you’ll be up to your 15 th coach including “The Scottish One” who will no doubt want a crack at the 2nd biggest market in OZ!!!

As l said didn’t watch it so my only reference was friends that did and the newspaper. Both siad it was a bit flat and even Michael C referred to same in his post…however l wasn’t there so accept your point. A true 150th celebration with all the history behind the AFL/VFL should have more than 70,000 should be 100,000 with meaningful game (IMO the final of a round robin series 3 matches in total Vic,SA, WA and either Eastern Aus team with Tassie or Aboriginal Allstar as 4th team 2 x semis and then winners playoff)
BTW How could it be a good game with no Essendon players??

Of course I was serious, after all, everyone on here knows that I have no sense of humour right?

Next time you are in Melbourne, say for the A-League Grand Final or something, then you should head down to the MCC Museum and have a look (not at the 1858 letter) but at the 1859 rules. The 1859 rules are at the MCC Museum. Please don’t get the two mixed up.

And yes, I am serious. Otherwise you have no grounds to your argument.

Enjoy your soccer.

And to just add to that, ACL is already head to head with Aussie Rules, and the Melbourne Victory FC although playing a mediocre brand of football under the “Scottish One” drew a crowd of 24K on a Wednesday night and are yet to find their true potential. When they do again, they will fill the Telstra Dome with 50k+ as they did facing “the Mega Club” Sydney FC. The most likely Football club in Australia to take out the first FIFA World Club Championship; defeating Manchester United in the Final in Tokyo by the year 2018. After or before the FIFA World Cup Final in Australia, at a revamped rectangle MCG with a 120k audience with no doubt a 2billion TV audience around the world..

Paul
I didn’t think we were wanting to have anymore discussion on this subject. But as you have used my blog name (Koala Bear) again in your most recent post after mine; let me ask in return, were you serious that I should spend $500 on air fares to fly to Melbourne to look at supposably an 1858 hand written letter by Tom Wills containing the 1859 10 Melbourne Rules; sent to a Melbourne newspaper (Life Line) in 1858 prior to that first ever scratch match marking the birthday of Aussie Rules. ? With years later the original being somehow found and now in the hands of the MCC; when in my last post I took out a passage written in an Aussie Rules web site that stated as reported:

The 1858 match.. From a VFL website..
The scratch match that took place on Saturday 31 July 1858 would bear little resemblance to a football match played in 1996. There were around forty men to each side; it was played in a paddock with trees as goal posts; with no boundary lines or point posts; neither informal umpires nor written rules; the ball was round, made from a pigs bladder and encased in a leather skin. The game began at around one o’clock and was played until dark – finishing because the ball could not be seen anymore. The first to reach two goals was the winner. In 1869, the winner became the team with the highest score.

Dave and Michael C,
I started to watch the haVard university v the Basketball Dream Team American hybrid rules exhibition match and I thought the same… Nooo atmosphere, flat as a dead dog’s donger, not like the last Footballroos V Uruguay last qualifier in Sydney.. Chalk and Cheese.. With that I switched over to “Faulty Towers”.. A good laugh.. But not as good as Bazza Cassidy wanting the New $250m Stand at the SCG to be called Capper’s Castle..Ha ha… Good one Bazza…

Finally it was fantastic to witness a New Zealander winning the Anzac Medal instead of an Irishman for the Rugby League Anzac test match on Friday night.. Michael C, tell your wife I thought her Sonny Bill Williams was outstanding, A final word, on a sad note, Newtown Blue bags RL FC, best ever coach, Jack Gibson, R.I.P.

~~~~~
KB

Went to the game, great skills, Fevola starred, great atmosphere with jsut under 70,000.

Redb

Didn’t see the Victoria game last night (at a 50th Birthday) but from all reports the atmosphere a little flat and 30,000 (also sounds like a lot of free tickets floating around) empty seats for a game that was flogged relentlessly in Melb media for a couple of weeks? What is your take? Reading the paper doesn’t look like there will be a rush to stage another. 150th celbrations, best 50 payers participating and yet they get more for many club games. IMO needed a sell out plus blood and thunder game to get SOO back on the drawing board. Plus how many interstate visitors would it have drawn? AFL needed to be more inclusive of the other states IMO to have proper 150 anniversary.
BTW 334 off 500

The posting by Joe O’ Sullivan about international expansion was a negative post on the AFL tab, this was provocative of him, he was picking a fight.

We can continue the discussion there:

http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/03/18/afl-international-expansion-wont-happen-soon/

Or we can just say, we proved that this assumption of his was wrong, and we also debated well against the detractors, and continue with a more positive thread here. I would kind of like to come at the topic positively anyway. I haven’t seen anybody posting negative stories about soccer on their tab.

I have been reading more about the expansion of the game. There was an article in the Age about Footy in Samoa.

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/tough-love-samoa-dives-into-football/2008/05/10/1210131331508.html

Aaron Edwards being the first Samoan to play the AFL, he believes that there will certainly be more to follow. The article talks about the Samoans playing an exciting breed of football, and packs of 10 players contesting marks, no holes barred. The article also speaks of 4 000 Samoan kids participating in footy clinics.

The thing that is striking me is that the numbers are increasing fast, year by year in some countries. A few years ago, there was little participation in Samoa to speak of, now there could be a real recruiting pool there. The more that are recruited, the more will become interested in the game. I can see this happening all across the Pacific, PNG and NZ. So I think, the days of international expansion are really only just beginning. There are exciting times ahead.

How many years will it take until there are consistently 20+ players from these countries in the AFL? That is another question. But if that does happen, then there will be a big enough injection in the player pool for the AFL to place teams where ever they want. There certainly must be a limit to the number of teams that could exist in the AFL, but in the long term I see no reason why that couldn’t be even 4 teams in Sydney.

As far as a state/ country of origin series is concerned, once there are a minimum number of players then teams could be entered. Drew Morphett was pushing for a four year carnival on the ABC last night. I think this has some merit and the AFL should consider it. But as soon as a country has enough decent players for a team, whether that be 10 AFL players plus other locals or a full 18 or 21 AFL players, then I would like to see end of season exhibition matches: South Africa vs West Coast in Cape Town, Durban and Johannesburg; New Zealand vs Sydney in Auckland, Wellington and Christ Church etc. Once the local fans have someone they can really cheer for, then the interest in the sport will sky rocket locally.

It’s only a matter of time.

PNG, NZ and Sth Africa – - amongst others – - might be able to compete at the level of Tassie, NSW/ACt in Div 2 SoO. Not against the Vics or SA or WA for quite some time.

SoO – I reckon every 4 years, for a carnival, or – - the Big V vs Dreamteam?? – - but, it was a little lacking in ‘opposition’ atmosphere last night.

Current figures in Papua New Guinea: 30 000 registered players
Current figure in New Zealand: 16 000 players.

So the growth in New Zealand has not been exponential, but 60% growth over four years is still very healthy. Growth from 9 000 to 30 000 in four years in Papua New Guinea is astronomical though. This makes the business plan for South Africa achievable.

If growth continues over the next 10 years in theses countries, it could start to be possible to see “country of origin” teams that are capable of playing State of Origin teams.

The history of Aussie Rules has been club based. The State of Origin series has never been consistent, and the rules for selecting teams have constantly changed. The club tradition does not lend well for representative competition. 22 weeks regular season, 4 weeks finals and 4 weeks pre-season, makes for a long season. The clubs are not willing to give too much extra time to “extra curricular” activities. If AFL is to expand internationally, in the future this will have to change.

Recruiting players from countries such as Ireland, Papua New Guinea, South Africa and New Zealand will no doubt life the profile of AFL in those countries, but nothing will work better than allowing those countries the opportunity to compete against the best. Whether this means competing against a State of Origin team or against a club for an exhibition match, something needs to happen along these lines.

Imagine an all New Zealand XVIII full of AFL players playing against Victoria or Richmond in Auckland. New Zealanders would be likely to turn out for such an event, especially if there are 50 000 to 100 000 grass roots players by such a year that an event is possible.

The AFL used to have exhibition games around the world at the end of the season in October. Various clubs could play exhibition games against representative sides. This is not a pipe dream, but the next ten years will require similar levels of growth in the three mentioned countries for such a dream to be possible.

(For a summary of the 2004 census: http://www.worldfootynews.com/article.php?story=20050301074107992 )

At the time the only two countries worth noting significantly were New Zealand and Papua New Guinea. New Zealand had 11 226 players (10 690 were junior players) and Papua New Guinea had 9 920 players (8000 were junior). In 2008 World Footy News report that South Africa now has 10 000 players and that the business plan is to raise that to 30 000 within three years. Considering that back in 2004 there were only 700 players in South Africa, this growth curve seems exponential.

Does anyone know how many players there are in New Zealand or Papua New Guinea now?

I wonder if there is a greater void to be filled in South Africa that such rapid growth has occurred, where as, it is my guess that the numbers in NZ may have stayed fairly static over the same time period.