By Andrew Logan
May 7th 2008 @ 1:18am
In club rugby, east is east and west is west
Twenty years ago, in 1988, Sydney rugby club Randwick became the first Australian club side to play the All Blacks.
They were defeated by 25 points to 9, although the two tries to one statistic is probably a more accurate reflection of the game. The match was watched by thousands from rooftops around Coogee Oval.
In 1983, five years before that, an epic 12-10 grand final win to Manly over Randwick led to the appointment of Alan Jones as national coach, and the subsequent 1984 Grand Slam tour, and the 1986 Bledisloe win.
In 1991, former Wallaby coach Rod Macqueen erupted out of a 173 game grade career with Warringah, coached the side to two consecutive Grand Finals, became Waratahs coach through a 10 match unbeaten run, and eventually coached the Wallabies to a World Cup in 1999.
Sydney club rugby has a history of producing acorn moments: those moments which are recognised by canny observers as being a portent to great oak trees for NSW and Australian rugby further down the track.
A history of great players producing memorable moments in club grand finals. A history of great coaches emerging as contenders from club training grounds. And a history for which new chapters were written each and every weekend throughout the Sydney winter.
Unfortunately, the only acorns which get the attention required to flourish, seem to exist east of Homebush.
The Penrith oak, which should be a sturdy sapling by now, is actually a stunted, struggling twig whose new leaves are stripped whenever it shows promise.
In 1999, the struggling minnows had their day in the sun when they won 10 regular season games, surprising many a fancied opponent in the process. But no longer.
You could say that Penrith has been forgotten, but that would be a forgiving to those charged with growing the game in NSW.
Studiously ignored might be closer to the mark. Disregarded would be closer still. And snubbed might be most accurate of all.
Penrith have struggled over the last few years. Once upon a time there was support from members of the NSW hierarchy. Fraser Neill and Ewen McKenzie have both supported the idea of Penrith rugby being strong. There was once a fairly successful development program happening too, driven by former NSW commercial and operations manager Dave Gibson. Unfortunately for the west, Gibson was sacked by the Waratahs in May 2007.
A couple of years ago, NSW Rugby did some analysis and discovered that an enormous percentage of the population of greater Sydney was west of Blacktown. So why, the question was asked, is rugby not growing out there?
The answer was twofold.
First, there is no real rugby culture in the west, and second, no-one wants to play for the team which is out there, because they keep getting belted. The good players they do manage to unearth, go east to stronger clubs.
The recommendation which came out of this analysis was: “Fix Penrith, and you’ll grow rugby in the west”. Did it happen? It certainly doesn’t appear so.
This hasn’t stopped Penrith from trying to fix themselves.
In 1999, the Sydney clubs were allocated a sum of approximately $5,000 each to develop junior rugby. The Penrith club sat down and said “OK, what are we going to do with ours?”
The idea eventually was to find 10 schools and get them to field a team in a schools competition in return for a donation to the school of $500.
In the first year, this Penrith administered competition attracted 10 teams - roughly 200 new junior players trying rugby in the west of Sydney. The second year, 15 teams nominated for the competition.
These days this competition is still administered by Penrith rugby and it has teams playing a midweek competition in divisions for Yrs 7/8, Yrs 9/10 and Opens (Yr 11/12).
There are about 2,300 players in this competition. That is not a misprint. There are over two thousand juniors playing rugby in a competition administered by Penrith Rugby, who also pay for the referees and other incidentals. About 600 of those children are girls. The program was started by Penrith, is run by Penrith, and relies on a mix of funding from Penrith and other sources.
One of the great success stories from this competition is Prairiewood High at Wetherill Park. After forming their first rugby union team just four years ago, Prairiewood’s First XV snatched the Robson Shield, which is contested state-wide.
Captained by an Assyrian of Iraqi origin, Prairiewood’s winning team was a mix of Samoan, Fijian, Tongan, Italian, Turkish, Dutch, Uruguayan, Spanish, New Zealand, Maltese and Lebanese kids.
Herald journalist Paul Sheehan recorded his impressions of a conversation about rugby with the school’s principal, Denise Smith: “I believe her, because we were talking after Prairiewood’s First XV had played in the final of the statewide open rugby championship, the Waratah Shield. They had just been thrashed, 51-0. Not to worry. They won the shield as the best state high school and lost the final to a rugby dynasty, St Edmunds College, Canberra, who had won the final for the seventh consecutive time and the 13th in 20 years. Their captain, James Stonham, playing in the tradition of previous Eddies’ captains Ricky Stuart and George Gregan, dominated the game and was picked to play for Australian schools”.
“Yet, although I am a dubious product of Eddies, it was the losing captain, Senan Naamo, who made a deeper impression on me. Naamo is tall and gangly, the son of Assyrian immigrants from Iraq. ‘He’s a lovely boy, a serious student with exceptional character’, Smith told me. Naamo gave the captain’s address at the presentation. He’s not a polished speaker but he’s a dignified one, and he struck me as the sort of young man upon whom teachers could rely to help build a school’s espirit de corps, especially one in the middle of a melting pot”.
Penrith Rugby Club are responsible for this school playing rugby. But unfortunately, these young players are not coming through to the Penrith ranks. And neither are many of the Penrith juniors in their U15, U16 and U17 sides, particularly those who make the rep sides out west.
Alex Pinson, Penrith junior and member of the Sydney West Schools rugby rep team, is a poignant example. He received two letters from leading Sydney clubs after he made the SWS team, offering him playing positions with them. This was especially cheeky, considering that he is the son of Penrith RUFC General Manager John Pinson, and Nepean Blue Emus junior rugby President Michelle Pinson. Incidentally, the Pinsons did not contribute to this story. The information came from elsewhere.
Obviously, the talented players from the Penrith district are quickly snapped up by rugby league clubs, and, in a classic case of the snake devouring itself, other leading Sydney rugby clubs. So despite Penrith being responsible for thousands of kids under the age of 17 playing rugby, they continue to struggle at the senior level because there is no way to keep them in rugby after they reach the grade ranks.
If they are any good, the lure of rugby league cash, and rugby cash and scholarships is often just too strong. A cursory glance at the annual reports of the leading clubs will show that the Penrith club runs on an annual budget about one-third the size of the frontrunners.
This is not the only problem for the rugby people struggling to keep the game alive west of Blacktown. The rugby hierarchy does its part to keep the west down too.
In 2003, Penrith Rugby Club made a submission together with Penrith City Council, to host a team for the World Cup.
According to sources, it was agreed that they would host Argentina – an award made in large part because of the successful hosting of the rafting and water sports by Penrith during the Olympics, and also in part due to support from Panthers Leagues Club who were supplying the accommodation, and use of the Panthers state-of-the-art training facilities at Hickeys Lane.
Six weeks before the World Cup, the offer to host a team, any team, was suddenly withdrawn and Penrith Rugby were left to go cap in hand to Penrith Council, and Panthers, and give them the bad news. Former Penrith and then Wales coach Scott Johnson’s offer to take Wales to Penrith was declined, because “Argentina were there”.
Argentina stayed at the Crowne Plaza, Coogee. Wales stayed somewhere else. No-one stayed at Penrith.
In 2007, there was a meeting between Penrith officials, NSW Rugby and Jackie Kelly, the outgoing Member for Lindsay. Kelly (who is now on the board of Penrith Rugby Club) was aware of some land formerly owned by Australian Defence Industries at St Marys and was interested in having the land turned into sporting fields – specifically six full size rugby pitches complete with stadium.
After a visit to the site, Kelly asked a NSW official how much they might need to develop the site if she could acquire it on their behalf, through legitimate government channels, at no cost to either Penrith or NSW Rugby.
Since she was on her way to Canberra the next day, Kelly asked for a simple document to take with her, setting out an initial estimate for development of the site. Penrith rugby officials completed the submission and emailed it to NSW at 1am to be forwarded to Kelly’s Canberra office, since it needed to be lodged by NSW Rugby.
Throughout the next morning, Kelly phoned Penrith officials, looking for the document which had not yet been received from NSW, and which she needed for meetings in Canberra regarding the ADI site. By 1pm the document had still not been submitted. At 3pm, NSW officials finally contacted Penrith to say that the document had been reviewed, and that they didn’t feel that they were able to support the initiative.
The Canberra decision making machine rolled on down the road.
The ADI land still sits idle waiting for a development proposal. And Jackie Kelly, former Liberal minister and now Penrith board member, continues to lobby the new Labor government for development of the ADI site – the same Labor government, by the way, which recently canned millions in funding for the National Rugby Academy at Ballymore.
Incidentally, at the first site meeting with Jackie Kelly, the same NSW officials who eventually canned the idea, turned up 45 minutes late.
As rugby people, we’re entitled to ask: “How does a club with more than 3000 juniors playing rugby under their administration manage to be almost completely ignored by those who have the power to help it compete for market share in Western Sydney?”
The rugby game deserves better.
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sheek said | May 7th 2008 @ 9:11am | Report comment
I’m going to be very mischievous here. Send Sydney University back to subbies for a start, freeing up room for a district team in say, Campbelltown.
Alternately, reduce the premier rugby to 10 teams, perhaps by combining West Harbour & Eastern Suburbs into a ‘Sydney’ club. Ouch, that hurt too - I played Colts with Easts many years ago! Either way, Penrith might get some quality players.
The truth is, & rugby folk in the east & north shore dare not say it too loud, they don’t want to be mixing with the bogons out west.
I’m fond of saying we often get what we deserve. If RU goes backwards, it’s only what we deserve, because we failed to grasp the opportunities for expansion when they were available.
wallythefly said | May 7th 2008 @ 9:34am | Report comment
Good article, not to mention that in a few years they’ll be an AFL and A-League team representing Western Sydney that will make it even harder to get juniors to stick with rugby.
Terry Kidd said | May 7th 2008 @ 9:45am | Report comment
Well said Andrew. Excellent research. Can you hear my applause. NSW Rugby, read this, sit up and take notice.
Mavrik7 said | May 7th 2008 @ 10:07am | Report comment
Penrith deserve better. It is a sad indictment on our once great game that a club that goes to the effort of following the philosophy of building the base then repeatedly gets the proverbial rug pulled from underneath it, time and time again. I will never understand the snobbery within the rugby “Family”.
Roger said | May 7th 2008 @ 10:07am | Report comment
Bravo Andrew, I watched Penrith play Randwick as Coogee oval recently and they had an enormous amount of talent, be it unorganised (resulting in floggings!). Great article.
Dave Gibson will be sorely missed. Surely the great Peter Fenton has some influence with the NSWRU!
Andrew Marks said | May 7th 2008 @ 10:33am | Report comment
Well done Andrew! As an old Penrith Rugby Player of the 60’s and 70’s it saddens me that nothing has changed since the Nepean Emu’s were playing at Emu Plains. The vision, guts and determination of the Penrith Rugby Club has to be acknowledged, admired and SUPPORTED!
Gary Murdoch said | May 7th 2008 @ 11:59am | Report comment
“Ten years ago in 1988——”. ?? No wonder the place is going no where.
chris ash said | May 7th 2008 @ 12:21pm | Report comment
great story, but very a very sad eye opener to the politcs of rugby for me.
Nicko said | May 7th 2008 @ 12:30pm | Report comment
One obvious issue with the NSWRU management over the past few years which has been evidently inferred in newspapers - NO CHANGE FROM LEATHER-PATCH, PRIVATE SCHOOL ERA!!..
Seriously, in this day and age, why do we have 2 divided Rugby codes, one for the “gentlemen” and one for the “working class” when other countries have rugby as their main code….
Yes the game was GOLD during the leather-patch, private school era which was before “professionalism” (in the true sense of the word has never flowed through to its administrators in their office but simply meant ‘players get paid’ - and is evident at the NSWRU…
Professionalism comes with many more connatations than merely just ‘players-get-paid’, and we have now found ourselves in a “Professional” era of the sport with incompetent leather-patch protectionists, protecting the games tradition ( c.1865) on the Eastern Seaboard, when they should be executives running a potentially global franchise which should compete with - lets start at the top: NPC, Currie Cup, Heineken Cup, Euro League, Premier League etc !!!
So now we are divided, Penrith per above goes nowhere because it doesnt fit NSWRU’s agenda (or moreso the incompetent buffoons at the top running the game’s agenda), club rugby and schoolboy Rugby are our only hopes for ‘grassroots rugby’ (seriously, bin that term - it is 2008!) and we have S14’s which we participate in as minnows, and the big fish are RSA & NZ (Admin, management and marketing success wise)
Seriously, NSWRU, QLDRU and whoever else is still in there talking about what school they went to instead of managing a game to world level - you are a pack of incompetent political nobodies, who’s who-ing yourselves and we are now stuck with a divided game!
The game WAS great post 1995, but the overlap into professional era slowly wore thin and expired in about 2005 when the Brumbies stars became offshore contract candidates..
Wake-up!, Clean-out and get on with it!!!
This game will be the game they play in heaven when we move on and get “Professional” from the TOP, DOWN!!
Take your smoking jackets off and get number crunching !!!
BM said | May 7th 2008 @ 1:17pm | Report comment
Great article Andrew!
Clean out all the board members of the NSWRU and start again.
Each premier rugby club should be represented as well as a member for suburban rugby, country rugby and junior rugby.
PaulMC said | May 7th 2008 @ 1:29pm | Report comment
Penrith - A place too far!
The rugby “types” still have difficulty with Homebush and complain bitterly at having to travel “that far” to watch a game.
They will endure spending over an hour getting out of Moore Park & put up with SFS rather than travel.
Roger said | May 7th 2008 @ 1:32pm | Report comment
Wait a second eveyone, if Scott Johnson takes the tahs coaching job then we will have on Penrith’s favourite sons coaching NSW.
Spiro Zavos said | May 7th 2008 @ 2:38pm | Report comment
Terrific piece of insight and research Andrew. You are right on and someone like Peter Fenton (the mentor of Scott Johnson) would be delighted with the accuracy of your analysis. It’s time to say that the NSWRU board has been a disaster area for too long. Perhaps we need another intervention from the ARU. Hopefully John O’Neill will read this and start pushing the NSWRU to do much better about a potential growth area of Sydney.
Why the NSWRU has not tried to push actively to do a deal with the Penrith Panthers League club is beyond me. In the early 1990s Sydney defeated the All Blacks out at Penrith by I think the biggest score they’ve conceded. Peter Fenton coached Sydney. Simon Poidevin played his last major rugby match and left the field with the All Blacks well beaten with 10 minutes or so to play so that his reserve Tony Dempsey could get a chance to play against the ABs.
In defence of the All Blacks, they’d been on a long tour of Australia and had a final test to play in Sydney before going on to South Africa. The players’ wives landed in Sydney for a week R and R before the South Africa leg three days before the Penrith match …
I have a photo taken from the Sydney Mail of 1904. it shows some stout gentlemen in suits and waistcoats standing in front of a steaming train. The caption says that the stout men were from the NSWRU and they were on their way to Penrith to scout out the possibilities of starting a rugby club out there. 104 years later and Andrew Logan tells us how the NSWRU is still failing the rugby community and the potential rugby community out west.
yoda said | May 7th 2008 @ 3:04pm | Report comment
Notwithstanding the fact that it was 20 years ago not 10, Andrew’s article is quite valid in many respects but amiss in others. Although criticism of NSW Rugby is perhaps warranted in several areas the development of rugby in the west of Sydney is a far more complex challenge than many appreciate. Now don’t get me wrong, I am in no way an apologist for NSW Rugby but it is worth considering the following.
When Penrith were promoted to the Shute Shield in 1994 from Kentwell Cup in the reign of David Moffett their performance on the field certainly didn’t warrant their elevation. They were neither the Kentwell Premiers nor Club Champions. The summary execution of Drummoyne in favour of Penrith also caused much angst amongst many in the club scene, although in true Sydney club rugby tradition many had been working behind the scenes to get rid of Drummoyne anyway. Strategically it may have seemed a great idea but I can remember quite clearly an article by Spiro Zavos at the time headlined “Don’t ignore the heartland to explore the frontier”. His article went on to describe how in 1904 the rugby luminaries of the time made an overnight train trip to explore the possibilities of establishing a significant rugby presence in the area. Anyway I digress.
The truth of the matter is that once the decision was made to include Penrith they were virtually left to fend for themselves and to be honest they were always on a hiding to nothing. In principle it may have seemed a good idea but they had neither the structure, the support or the the ability to be successful and NSW Rugby weren’t really in a position to help.
Why? Because the whole organisation, the growth and development of the game in NSW both in the city and throughout the country areas depends on the success of 6 nights a year…the home games for the Waratahs. Now if you had a business where your whole year depended on 6 good days sales then, to say the least, it would be a fairly nervous existence. It almost makes a farmers life seem positively easy. Then add in factors like an underperforming team, bad weather, a bad draw, an hour to get out of the car park, rude staff, over priced food and beverage, then you certainly need to be very careful about where the money goes.That’s a problem for another day.
So what to do about the west. For rugby to prosper at a club, provincial and national level we have to embrace the west of Sydney. Not just Penrith but through to Campelltown and surrounding areas. And also to the Northwest. There needs to be a well thought out and structured pathway to allow these areas to meet the challenge and take their place in the premier competition once they satisfy set criteria. This criteria cannot be such that it is only achievable for those Sydney clubs who continue to insist that all clubs must field 5 senior grades and 4 colts. It must be such that players don’t feel the need to go to a few select clubs to be recognised. The competition must be balanced and there are several ways to that. A salary cap is probably not the way to go as the cost of enforcing such a policy would be prohibitive but a points system similar to the Jim Beam Cup could work. Basically it is where your first grade side can only field a maximum of say 100 points and each player has a value. Players who come through your Juniors/Colts have a far less value when they stay with their original club (and the points value for that player continues to stay low no matter what representative level he attains) but the value for that player going to another club is far higher. This stops the poaching and warehousing of players.
There are many great rugby stories that come out of the west but they are all at the Junior level, the Cluster Cup, Rugby in the Park to name a few. What we need to do is enable them to take it through to a senior level. That’s the challenge for NSW Rugby and one they need to address…now
Nicko said | May 7th 2008 @ 3:20pm | Report comment
1904… 4 years before league started - and they let league happen.. case in point.. incompetent and they have devoured themselves…
still happening today, this illustrates my point above and illustrates the fact that andrew’s article is just one illustration in a long career of pipe-dreamers, remembering the day….. what school did you go to??
Hatchet said | May 7th 2008 @ 3:30pm | Report comment
Is it difficult to understand why Argentina did not go to Penrith?? That would be like having a World Cup in France and locating a team on Devil’s Island.
At one time, Penrith had 8 development officers whilst other traditional rugby areas had none- Newcastle for one.
They should stop complaining and do something. This ” we poor westies” is wearing a bit thin. They always have their hand out for aid. 50% of NSW businesses are located west of Strathfield just get on and work at being a sucess.
westy said | May 7th 2008 @ 9:11pm | Report comment
Hatchet…..this is the point . We Westies are fairly stoic , perhaps less articulate but know when we are not wanted.. Our best rugby players generally do not end up playing rugby. They march with their feet. They perceive that Rugby is elitist even when rugby is their native game. It always amazes me when Rugby loses juniors like Inu, Hayne and Folau to league. When Penrith had the development officers Penrith won a significant number of games . The next year NSWRU sacked them and Penrith so to declined. The attitude of the Australian Rugby Union has improved but the NSWRU has not. No complaint should be made when people perceive Rugby is the most narrow based class ridden sport in Australia. The is not the reality but it is the attitude and culture that pervades NSWRU. This does not read well and rugby people react to it . The problem is it keeps rearing its ugly head. The class divide in Australia has been exaggerated by the significant subsidisation of private schools especially some very exclusive ones . I have personally had the unfortunate experience of taking a representative district team to play a private school A team and the comments made by the parents would not have been tolerated at a district level nor would the parents have been allowed to be so close to sidelines.with no ropes!. When one of our players finally reacted to being a “Gorilla “and told the female parent what he thought I was approached by an irate male to get him to apologise. They seem to have no code of conduct and the parents seemed to have no idea how to cope with the racial mix and size of a district rugby team in a district in which their school exists.The answer is that there school has not been and does not want to be part of that local district. This attitude does then affect future interaction. We have never been asked back and do not want to.go. As one of my players said “Do they have any Black kids there “The domination of private school administrators in NSWRU is at the active core of the elitism in NSWRU. The domination of private school rugby over junior district rugby is one which is not tolerated out west nor in any other sporting code in Australia.Even in cricket the district dominates over private school rugby. Most junior rugby players out west end up going to the more competitive and better run junior league .People out west like to represent their districts and communities.Rugby does not offer that competitive district alternative.Saw some of the juniors playing over in the east . My oh my there are not many of them. Saw plenty of Swans stickers. Do they have kids any more in the East?Sydney High and Sydney Grammar do they call what I saw Rugby? OH by the way give us a government bus service and privatise the ferries . Andrew… even if my argument is exaggerated and a little one dimensional thankyou for your article. You see when Parramatta Leagues wanted to run a super 14 team out of Parramatta stadium in the heart of Western Sydney it would have been successful. The only one it would have hurt would have been the Waratahs. It really is the” club “of the North /East. It has little traction anymore as our state team.But that Western Sydney team would have grown the game. Everyone knows O’Neill is full of Bullshit. There will not be a Western Sydney team . It would only hurt the declining heartland.
Midfielder said | May 7th 2008 @ 10:29pm | Report comment
Andrew
IMO the best union article ever on the Roar.
Congratulations and hopefully this article makes some people take note, that the only thing holding rugby union back is its management.
Remember in the NH its growing and across Asian also growth, why is it declining in Australia, I worked at News at a place called Cumberland Newspapers and RM came in one day and sacked the Managing Director, General Manager, and about another 5 senior executives, he held a brief meeting with the staff and said words to the effect a fish stinks from the head.
Those responsible for the miss management you have uncovered need to be called to account.
Again excellent, nay brilliant article …………
Peter Fenton said | May 8th 2008 @ 8:47am | Report comment
Andrew - good article, well researched. The Argentina W/Cup fiasco was typical of our our problems. I could relate many more. One of your respondents referred to me as the ‘great’ Peter Fenton. Perhaps he was being facetious. At NSW they spelt it ‘grate.’ Scott Johnson and I drove them mad. And why not?
When I was appointed Penrith coach in 1997 the new CEO, John Winstanley, who’d had as much experience with Rugby (and therefor knew as much about it ) as I’d had with Chinese opera, told me to my face he was surprised and extemely disappointed that I had been chosen. He thought one of the NSW rugby boys was getting the job!!. I often thought of this as I was driving around the back of Mount Druitt picking up Pacific Island boys for training over the next five years.
The lift in fortunes seen in 1999 when we won 10 games, many with bonus points, was due largely to Scott Johnson’s efforts. He is a superb coach (sadly the new ARU and NSWRU boards were late realising this, though I believe NSW is trying to correct their error even at this late stage) ). We were also able to convince the CEO and Dave Gibson, who was equally difficult to motivate as I recall, to install four development officers in the West and alow them to play for Penrith. They certainly earned their money, developing from Eastwood to Hawkesbury Valley, Katoomba to Campbelltown, Parramatta to Penrith.
Of the four only one was a representative player, Peter Besseling, who had grown up on the Hawkesbury and gone to school in Penrith. Nevertheless the presence of these four and their attitude encouraged other talented players to the club. Chainsaw McQueen, Besso’s best mate from the NSW country team, Buddy Whare, another former Cockatoo from the Central Coast and local league veteran Glenn Liddiard. We were on the away! But not for long. When NSW realised they were broke at the end of the year the ARU stepped in to run the show and immediately summoned the development officers to Concord Oval, told them to hand in their car keys and find their way home.
The difficulties with promoting the game in the West are many and varied. Penrtith’s isolation is not really understood by those closer to the city. Most players are vulnerable to offers from other clubs. To switch from Gordon to Manly or Wests to Randwick hardly causes any logistical problems. How do you convince a player to finish work in town, battle your way up th M4 to be in Penrith for 7 o’clock training and get home at 10.30 at best? Believe me you don’t.
Of all the clubs Penrith’s players need to live in their own district. Parramatta is closer to Randwick than it is to Penrith. So they must exist on their schools and juniors. We operate in an age where poaching is more important than coaching. The stronger clubs with money and Uni with their scholarship systems can pick off the talented youngsters as they wish. The Penrith colts, all assembled from within the area, arrive to play Uni or Norths who contain half a dozen Australian schoolboys, tackle their hearts out and lose 60 nil. How much fun is that?
Rugtby is the only sport where there is no attempt made to level up the competition. There is no draft system, no salary cap, no encouragement, financial or otherwise, for players signed from league to play with the weaker clubs. No academy players are encouraged in this direction either. So the strong get stronger and the weak are left to ponder what might be. The district’s potential is way above any other. Yet it will take a lot more nous and effort than has ever been shown before to lift the profile and performance of Rugby in the most populated area in Sydney. As the soccer authorities plan an A League team, the AFL prepares for a second Sydney side, both situated in Sydney’s West, the new Gold Coast Titans lead the ARL competition and the AFL plans its invasion there also, the ARU proudly announces its invasion of Mosman!. You don’t believe it? Check their latest press release. They are putting a development officer on the North Shore. That should show them we mean business. Fab
Zelic said | May 8th 2008 @ 9:43am | Report comment
I agree Andrew - a terrific article and a shame that Sheek thought it appropriate to jump in to an important and serious debate by “mischievously” saying “Send Sydney University back to subbies for a start”. That was neither humourous nor helpful. It is often forgotten amid Uni’s recent run of success that it too was a basket case about 15 years ago. Sure it has some advantages other clubs may not have, for example, wealthy and influential alumni and (more recently) the ability to offer scholarships to those who wish to study while they play, but it would be nowhere if some very motivated people within the Club had not drawn a line in the sand, installed a professional administration and coaching structure and taken proactive steps to ensure an improvement of the Club’s on-field performance. There were no “handouts” from the NSWRU and Uni does not have a junior base but please do not attribute the strength of the Club to its geographic location - it has always been there. And if you do not think that the Club has done enormous amount to ensure the strength of Australian rugby in the last decade, then you are just not watching the game.
Having said that, I am not suggesting that Penrith has been the architect of its own demise . I am full of admiration for the efforts of those who run the Penrith Club and I am embarrassed by the way that the NSWRU has left it without support. I take no joy a big score is racked up against them, just like I was horrified to see Uni beat Southern Districts 80-0 last season when Souths had been the only Club apart from Randwick to lower Uni’s colours in 2005. The NSWRU Board is moribund and the ARU should clearly run the game here before we lose the West and South of Sydney altogether.
I very much enjoy my trips to Nepean Rugby Park and my discussions with the Penrith fans who are passionate about their Club and the game. What can be a higher priority than ensuring that they are not lost to the game?
stillmissit said | May 8th 2008 @ 10:17am | Report comment
Andrew a great article. As a working class boy I was accepted into a toffee nosed club in the UK as an equal, even though I dropped my H’s and had little education. It seems this egalitarian spirit is not living in the NSWRU. They would most probably be the first to chip there kids if they said something not PC yet they don’t see that they are doing this every day.
Fab
A great insight into a difficult problem for the ARU and the NSWRU. The ARU would love to do something but are not sure what, as they are short of cash, although they realise the threat that AFL has out there. The NSWRU just want to cut the Penrith problem out and then also get rid of Southern Districts another huge junior development area. The Canberra debacle/chopping was a success if you are a NSW administrator and the team from Wollongong also got the punt - great job.
Now NSWRU can get back to something they can administer. Norths, Gordon, Easts, Randwick, Wests, Parramatta, Sydney Uni, Warringah and Manly. They all speak the same language and there are no issues regarding dangerous investments, they hope to be able to continue to pick up the Kurtley Beales and Dave Dennis’s without spending a razoo! Perfect result.
Unfortunatley when they look over their collective shoulders rugby in NSW will be close to death. They will point the finger at AFL and claim they came in with bags of money and stole the whole show. You will not be able to find a NSW administrator who will put his hand up and say “I stuffed up”.
Maybe they want to buy another Concord Oval so that NSW supporters don’t get to see a test match again, now that would be a great plot.
Yikes said | May 8th 2008 @ 6:58pm | Report comment
Andrew, I have not been a great admirer of your articles because I think you take a kernel of truth, listen to one person’s story and hit the typewriter thinking it is journalism. This article has a few half-truths and makes some surprisingly odd conclusions. I wonder how many people you spoke to and how many corroborating sources you used to prise out your facts and opinions.
Let’s start with the bizarre notion that Dave Gibson was spending (at least at the time of his dismissal in the role of Commerical and Operations) even one second on development out west, let alone “driving” it. He wasn’t, and hadn’t been involved with development for many many years. The person in charge of what was called the Western Sydney Project was Peter Colquhoun (and ask anyone in Sydney junior rugby if there’s more to his story). The money that drove the Western Sydney Project was funding directly from RWC2003. When this ceased, so did the project - although there are still elements continuing to today, and Sydney’s west, if you include Campbelltown, currently has more development resources provided by NSWRU than any other area of Sydney. Or did you not know that? Did you even ask anyone who might know? Your implied notion that there was development in the west until Dave Gibson was sacked (you write “unfortunately for the west”) is so off base as to beggar belief.
Penrith forgotten? Ignored? Snubbed? I would wager that over the past few years, more money has been sent Penrith’s way by NSWRU than to any other club by far. What investigation did you do into this? Where did some of this money go? You already identified one part of the problem when you said the analysis was “Fix Penrith, and you’ll grow rugby in the west”. Instead of perhaps developing junior structures and long-term relationships in the community, Penrith decided to improve its playing and coaching roster (remember Darren Coleman). And so they were competitive. But is this not unsustainable? When the money goes (and it’s not a bottomless pit) you have not much to show for it.
The sad truth is that Penrith as a club has over the years in some ways adopted a siege mentality which has alienated some potential partners and sponsors. This is not surprising being the fortress of rugby in a league dominated area, but suggesting that its failures haven’t been at least in part self-inflicted is just wrong. This notwithstanding, Ian Moyes and their new board seems to be doing great things with the club at the moment in tough circumstances - including the logistical ones Fab so rightly points out.
Moving to the issue of juniors - I have been involved with the schools tournament that Penrith runs for a couple of years now, and it is indeed brilliant. Penrith have done a great, great job and have worked tirelessly to make it successful. But why are these kids not coming through the ranks? Your only answer is league’s cash and eastern rugby clubs’ scholarships. But the real problem is more simple than that. The reason you didn’t hit on it is explained by your final comment, which belies the fact that you have little or no understanding whatsoever of the structures of junior rugby. You say: “How does a club with more than 3000 juniors playing rugby under their administration…”
These are not juniors - these are school players playing in school competitions, and have little direct contact with the Penrith club itself. Many of them actually play league or soccer. The problem out west is that there are very few junior CLUBS attached directly to the Emus, playing regular week-in week-out rugby, for these kids to play in. These are the structures that would see a steady supply of talent to the senior club, as they do for every other premiership club.
Why aren’t there these clubs? One answer is that league is so big, is there the demand? Another answer requires you to look at how you create a new junior club. You require a core nucleus of 3 to 5 very driven volunteers willing to work very very hard, like the Pinsons, to make that happen. Unfortunately, in an area so dominated by league, these people simply do not exist in the numbers that would be needed to make things happen. This was certainly the experience of the Western Sydney Project. This is a problem money alone can’t fix.
As for your final point regarding the St Mary’s ADI land that could have presumably been turned into a rugby paradise at no cost to anyone (because what rugby does well is controlling rugby grounds - like Concord Oval and Ballymore!), you fail to mention that Penrith seem to have landed on their feet - they’re currently playing Grade home matches out of Western Weekender Stadium, which has a surface like a bowling green, and has by far the best facilities of any ground in the entire Shute Shield! So playing venue certainly isn’t an issue for them… can’t wait for the double header on Friday June 13…
I await your next article on one of the real dangers to Penrith’s future - the push by some Premiership clubs (I wonder who they are?) to have Penrith removed from the Shute Shield. Let’s see some in depth journalism about who’s pushing for that and what their motives are…
stillmissit said | May 8th 2008 @ 7:39pm | Report comment
Yikes very interesting and like Andrew there is a lot of truth to what you say and some areas that I don’t agree with. There is a very strong sub district competition with players coming out of their ears and the Penrith administrators stay in touch with those clubs. Not sure what you mean by a Junior club. There is certainly nothing out here I have heard refered to as that.
I am not sure who was in charge of rugby development in the West from the NSWRU point of view but the only name I have heard from schools and Penrith rugby people is Ben Berriman. This young teacher worked tirelessly and established many rugby schools in the area under the banner “The Game for All Sizes”. A couple of brothers who are local rugby supporters also established rugby in some schools, standing against strong league opposition. They are developers and do this with their own money for the love of the game.
From my point of view there are a couple of issues in terms of getting the school kids into Penrith. Basically there are 2 different cultures in the area one is the Mount Druitt area boys, mostly islanders with great natural skills but no desire to train or turn up on Saturday (With noticable exceptions)- see Peter Fentons comment above. It’s the boys from the Blue mountains who turn up to most training sessions. The Mount Druitt boys all want to be paid, as they are in league, and the Blue Mountains boys see the Islander boys getting more attention than they do. Every 18 year old kid out here with talent can get a run in league for $250 a game. In Penrith they do it for love unless they are in 1st grade. Now this is OK with the Blue Mountains boys and they can see the possibility of being seen in 1st grade and possibly getting a run in the S14. The islander boys think this is great too but where is the money now.
This is a culture problem as much as anything else and fix this and the club will boom assuming they can get more volunteers to help out.
Regarding the push to out Penrith and Souths a lot has been writen about this in other areas. I wrote an emotional outburst on this situation when I heard about it. Naming people doesnt help here as there is a compromise that needs to be established and a plan to work together to build rugby union in NSW and all rugby people agree with this aim.
Yikes said | May 8th 2008 @ 9:18pm | Report comment
stillmissit - By junior club, I mean a club with junior rugby players - ie U6s to U17s. Sure there are subbies clubs, but not many and there is no dedicated pathway from subbies to Grade.
BTW, I agree re naming individuals. That wasn’t what I was after but rather an analysis of the motives for something that really would put rugby back to the stone age out west - the removal of Penrith as a Premiership club.
westy said | May 8th 2008 @ 10:05pm | Report comment
Yikes……what concerns me is the addresses of some players who play for clubs as one moves closer to the city. Yikes you miss the fundamental point. The demographic is changing . The natural demographic of the private schools is changing. Not enough of them proportionally play. Secondly many seem interested in other sports. Trinity seem to now enrol West Harbour boys and not many of these live near the harbour. Football is becoming more popular. Shoosh….be quiet they have not told you but proportionally their numbers have dropped, yet their administrative influence has actually increased with the demise of NSW Country at NSWRU.Look at the blokes who run it. All comprehensive state school educated from all over Sydney. .The number of children in the north and east is diminishing relative to the West and south west rugby’s weakest areas. Problem…..the game is where the kids are not. You know as well as I the games NSWRU plays with their junior figures. I have sons who play rugby and league. Out west boys interested in playing competitive district games choose rugby league and they do not get paid. A handful of players may be on contracts at 16 but they are the exception. It is a better competition against better players.The private school infrastructure that drives rugby in other areas of SYdney does not exist. Quite seriously have you looked at junior numbers over Epping way. Not good and when the private school boys go back to their school competition the standard is not good. It is even worse in Penrith and the north west.Tell you what I am for solutions.If our strength is in schools out west so be it . Use it. Whatever scarce resources NSWRU has pour it into these state schools who play. Pick a representative team for Western Sydney not the metro teams for CHS but a Western Sydney team in itself. , tour them interstate, overseas, coach them, affirm them, play them against private schools show them what rugby can do. . Its called affirmative action and never apologise for it.
paulmc said | May 8th 2008 @ 10:48pm | Report comment
Guys
lets be real - Rugby NSW (as determined by those that …) is for the elete.
K Beale, would not be the Tahs 10 but for Joeys. Other missing are well known.
Western Sydney private schools are treated as 2nd class citizens.
The attitude of many to Homebush for tests reflects this - forget the $ value of 40K bums
Rugby is a great game - in Oz its somewhere between racism & snobbery - closer to the Rangh of India (spelling)
When it wakes up - well - then things may happen
Midfielder said | May 8th 2008 @ 11:07pm | Report comment
Yikes
I think you have missed the central message of this article, ………… NSW rugby is an inept inward looking organisation who in the broader interest of rugby need to be held to account for there lack of forward planning.
I do not see how you can defend these guys and there past performance.
In football despite all its past problems and there were so many the Roar server could not handle if you were to list them. But they somehow grow the game and let it grow. Big call but NSW rugby is on a level of management of the old NSL and its good that Andrew has exposed some of these failings for public debate.
Yikes said | May 9th 2008 @ 1:35am | Report comment
Midfielder - so we start with the conclusion and then fix the details to match the outcome? It doesn’t matter if Andrew’s details are wrong, so long as his message resonates? It’s the vibe… it’s Mabo…
Basically, it’s easier to accept a simple answer (that NSWRU are evil incompetents), than to accept that there are complex realities at play here (missed opportunities from NSWRU; poor management at Penrith itself; logistical, cultural, structural and geographical barriers that make cracking western sydney difficult).
Andrew’s article feeds into the former mindset, because it only presents one side of the story. That’s not research and journalism, that’s a polemic.
stillmissit said | May 9th 2008 @ 10:04am | Report comment
Westy
Your call to arms is well meant but how the hell is it going to be instituted? The NSWRU when I looked over the names doesn’t have a board member from the West or the South (I am guessing and would love to be proven wrong). Without someone who can actually speak logically about people in the West and motivate the board to do something constructive, little can be achieved.
I sympathise with the Blazers as they believe they have done all they could to make inroads into the West but they missed a critical point. They assumed there would be a natural affinity with the game once they started to play rugby at school i.e. a more complex game requiring strategy and brains as well as strength and determination would be attractive to them and bind them for life. This is not the case out here as there are so many alternatives and what you play at school doesn’t necessarily dictate what you play after school. There are only 2 influences I can see, one is their mates and what they do, the other is television. Few of their mates play rugby and you can’t see it on the TV, so why play the game?
We can’t change the FTA TV situation so the only thing to do is get as many mates playing for one club as possible. I don’t have an answer to how we do this but it is the best I can think of. Once there is a consistent level of success out here it develops it’s own momentum.
Yikes - your arguments are fine with me, this debate needs a balance, if it becomes a “Poor people in the West” bullshit we won’t get anywhere either.
Midfielder said | May 9th 2008 @ 11:09am | Report comment
Andrew
Penrith aside, and there problems as you suggest at Penrith, NSW rugby has been run very poorly over a number of years. Poorly run is kind and I see Andrew article as much as anything else highlighting some of these problems.
Concord Oval, Mac bank and friends saved the day, but AFL may even get control yet of Concord, I know this has nothing to do with Penrith. But the Penirth issues are symptonmatic of the way NSW rugby has been run over the years. On the information I have it was NSW RU that put the knife into the Parramatta Eels / Western Sydney bid for a s14 spot. This was the only real way to grow the game in the west.
Balance is needed I agree, but debate on NSW RU and its management is long overdue.
Midfielder said | May 9th 2008 @ 11:14am | Report comment
Sorry Andrew, this was meant for Yikes.
petrer fenton said | May 9th 2008 @ 11:14am | Report comment
Time Out… Gentlemen.
The debate is stimulating to someone who spent several years at Penrith’s coalface. Some commnets on some comments if I may.
ANDREW speaks as a proud Penrith player of the 60s and 70s. I wish we could have found some more of yiour ilk willing to put in some time as managers, minor grade coaches etc during my 6 years there.
ROGER refers to Scott Johnson as “one of Penrith’s favourite sons.” Believe me he is a “favourite son” in lots of places. He is not parochial but ses the game in aholistic way. I am tempted to convince hm to relate some stories of his development officer days and the difficulties of convinciong those at Concord that the West was worth extra effort above those ares already well served. He will be back from the US Wenesday.
SPIRO names me as the Sydney coach when we beat the All Blacks at Penrith. I wish this were true, it was Jeff Sayle. More importantly he expresses surprised that the NSWRU did not approach the Panthers. Spiro They DID, through their CEO. We were looking for sponsorship from them, $300,000 over a 3 year period. The CEO promised them that NSWRU would organise a high profile office in the a main street of Penrith from which full paid developmwent officers would operate. The Waratahs would play at leat two important fixtures at Panthers Stadium each year, players who were bought from league or interestate would be encouraged through contracts to play at Penrith and that NSWRU would put much work into helping establish junior clubs in the district. I still have acopy of the document outllining these plans left with the Panthers board, unsigned.
What resulted? The development boys worked out of two disused council offices not visible from the street, we never saw a contracted payer though there were plenty, we got a game at in the pre-season with one of the NZ provinces and the Waratahs. The game was given no worthwhile advertising ( a suggestion by Scott Johnson that each kid be given a cheap rugby T- shirt and that he would approach one of the major newspapers to fund the venture was kyboshed). On a freezing night a crowd of about 4,000 attenede to see the game which was preceded by the Penrith 1st XV and the Classic Wallabies.
There were some meetings re the juniors but nothing came of them and the Panthers board told NSWRU ‘Come back when you are fair fdinkum.” We didn’t get the sponsorship though the Panthers did support us to a minor degree in other ways as they did with most local sporting clubs.
YODA said Penrith were not equippped to come into first division. He was right, a fact shown after just a few training sessions. I saw the proposal that got them in and the expectations were totally unrealistic.
HATCHET said that putting the Argies at Penrith would be like putting a team at Devils Island with the World cup in France. On the contrary Hatchet, the place was made to accommodate them or any other team. Accommodation at the Panthers, the training ground across the road, the rowing centre two miles down the road and the Olympic Satadium 20 mintes away repeat 20 minutes, by coach. The appalling part was the Welsh were interested through Johnno’s connection but we were already committed to the Argies so knocked them back. You’re not from Woolahra are you Hatchet?
YIKE is ovbviously passionate about this subject and sees things differently to many. He is working with the juniors so I undestand that . Your point about juniors as opposed to shool players is well takent. Still Yike I think your denegration of the author’s article and his rerseach is a bit overe the top. I’m sure you are young. And fiery. Good on you but restraint is also a virtue. You mention Penrith’s siege mentlity. Yes there is one. Iit must be overcome but it has been well fuelled by the constant threat of relegation and a belief that the good players will find their way to the top( like David Dennis and Kurtley Beale) with or without Penrith. Pat Wilson, who was running club rugby at the time, told me “Fab I know this will hurt you but it really doesn’t matter if Penrith has a good team or not. The good players will gravitate to strong clubs and make it if they are good enough.” Peter Niumata, a wonderful young Penrith prop, had just got a lucrsative contract with Queensland. To Pat this proved te point. He was, and still is is, a bood mate of mine but he coudn’t see how many more young players would come to the fore if they had a team to aspire to. Yike also says Penrith has ” landed on their feet” at Western Weekender Stadium. It’s been a bloody long fall. The Western Weekender is privately owned by a a Penrith rugby enthusiast.
Enough of the past and who did what to who. Surely what matters is that Australia needs to increase its player base and WESTY sums things up succinctly and without bias when he says ” The game is where the kids are not.” Unless this is corrected we will slowly become irrelevant. Fab
stillmissit said | May 9th 2008 @ 12:15pm | Report comment
Peter Fenton
The tragedy here is that nobody disagrees with you or Westy’s point about getting the game to where the kids are. Nobody seems to care enough to do anything about it. Or more likely they see it and agree with it but they have more important things on the cards that will always take presidence.
You also state that there was difficulty getting volunteers even during a golden period, I believe this persists today. It also suggests that the people at the top of Penrith either didn’t know how to or tried and failed to get more volunteers into the club. This is a critical factor as all rugby clubs are totally reliant on volunteers. What is your opinion on why the club failed to attract more volunteers?
If it was easy the West would have been done years ago. Unfortunately we don’t have anybody at the top of NSW rugby who believes just because it’s hard is why they should do it!
Obviously at the AFL they have such men.
Terry Kidd said | May 9th 2008 @ 12:25pm | Report comment
Guys this thread has given me an insight into the politics and problems of growing the game in Sydney. I know next to nothing about the reality but reading between the lines of all these posts it does not appear that a coherent action plan exists that all stakeholders have agreed to and signed off on regardless of what has happened in the past …. the plan must be about what is happening now and moving into the future.
In my mind the first step that must be taken is to increase the interest in rugby in Western Sydney, and all other areas, and to do this the game must be visible in the media, visual and written, if you achieve the visual the written will follow.
Achieving the visual might come down to JON and the ARU because it will involve getting Fox to agree to release some televised rugby matches to FTA and the internet, even if they are delayed replays. Its my belief that even delayed replays on Saturday or Sunday afternoons (currently often filled by old movies or re-runs of old sitcoms) would be more useful than only Pay TV access (and Fox would have to admit that Pay TV is not penetrating the private home as much as they would like). The internet is also a growing medium, the same games could be made available for download and playing on PCs or buring onto DVDs for viewing on larger tv screens ….. it is the kids we wish to target who will embrace this medium. Internet access and computers are far more prevalent in private homes than Pay TV.
If the ARU and NSW RU can engage the interest of the kids then they will come looking for somewhere to become involved. It then comes down to the NSW RU putting the junior and district structures in place ….. and that becomes the second, third and subsequent steps of an action plan.
I have no stats or research to back up what I have said, it is all gut feel from what I have read earlier in this thread, but IMHO it would be a good start.
Andrew Logan said | May 9th 2008 @ 12:26pm | Report comment
All, thanks for your comments, both positive and negative.
Good to see Yikes back on air and once again taking me to task. I particularly liked the description of my work as a “polemic”. For those of you who are not as verbally agile as Yikes, the Oxford dictionary describes a polemic as a “controversial discussion” or a “verbal or written attack, esp/ on a political opponent”, so it is probably a fitting description for Yikes’ work as well as my own.
Yikes - I feel that you are needlessly hostile in your comments, and while I concede that there is room for interpretation, I feel that you may have unnecessarily taken issue with specific terminology. For example…”Let’s start with the bizarre notion that Dave Gibson was spending (at least at the time of his dismissal in the role of Commerical and Operations) even one second on development out west, let alone “driving” it. He wasn’t, and hadn’t been involved with development for many many years.”. I’m sure no-one, least of all me, believes that Gibson in his capacity as GM - Commercial and Operations was ever running around out west running drills for junior rugby clubs or schools. However, it would be reasonable to believe that if the GM - Comm Ops was not in favour of development activity, it would not be happening, so perhaps your issue is really with my use of the term “driving”. Perhaps I should have said “approved by”, or “signed off on by” which may have had a different connotation.
Same point re juniors. Sure…OK…you got me. Mea culpa. They’re not really juniors in the truest sense of the word. However, as you say yourself, there aren’t too many genuine junior clubs feeding into Penrith, so they have to make the best of what they have ie schools. And you’ve have to think that, if the senior club had a few rep players and was winning some games, some of these kids might actually consider giving rugby a real go - whereas at the moment it is a midweek novelty.
Finally, my point about the ADI project was not to suggest that it would have fixed all the woes in one fell swoop. Simply to show that despite an opportunity to be involved in a major rugby facilities project in the west, NSW chose to do nothing, rather than do something. It’s about as simple as I can make it.
Like I said earlier, I look forward to your comments for two reasons - a) the counterpoint which is always valuable; and b) the insight you have which is clearly factual and born out of a good understanding of rugby.
Unfortunately, they might have a greater impact without the personal attacks and sarcasm. I’m sure many of the contributors would agree - not everyone who has a different view is the enemy.
Cheers…
Yikes said | May 9th 2008 @ 2:44pm | Report comment
Andrew - Apologies if I (again?) come across “over the top” as Fab has put it. But these are serious issues, and I think you have taken short-cuts here that do a disservice to your readers.
Gibson had nothing to do with development issues and community rugby whatsoever, certainly he didn’t approve anything. And hadn’t done since before he became the Waratahs’ Manager. You’ve taken 2 facts: Gibson was involved with development out west in 1999, and Gibson was sacked in 2007 and connected them. It’s just sloppy, and misleading. You were trying to paint a picture that the west suffered when Gibson was dismissed.
On the juniors issue - it is not a mere matter of quibbling over terminology, it’s a matter of structures. Was your article trying to explain why Penrith are struggling or not? Then a thorough misunderstanding of junior pathways and what turns school-aged players into colts and senior players hurts your article. The point you make in your post above: “…if the senior club had a few rep players and was winning some games, some of these kids might actually consider giving rugby a real go” is exactly the same failed sentiment you highlight in your main article “Fix Penrith, and you’ll grow rugby in the west”. Did it happen? It certainly doesn’t appear so.”
My point on the ADI site is - did you, in the preparation for this article - speak to any of the people involved in the decision not to move ahead to ask for their reasoning? Did you speak to anyone involved in junior development to see what is currently being done in the west? Did you speak to anyone involved with Premiership administration to see what financial support has been offered to Penrith in recent years? Did you speak to anyone to see what coaching support is currently being provided by NSWRU to Penrith? I would hazard a guess - no, no, no and no. And yet you put a piece together that directly attacks NSWRU for “snubbing” and “almost completely ignoring” Penrith, and get defensive when I call it a polemic.
And here we come to the point - Andrew, you think I am being personal and needlessly hostile. I’m sorry for that - but what I see is that you are presenting one-sided opinions and reaching conclusions that are not only misleading, but actively damaging to the prospects of rugby in NSW moving forward. Look at all of the anti-NSWRU bile your article elicited from the readership here. All happy to read and believe information that doesn’t show the full picture and doesn’t address the complexity of the issues at play. There is plenty of blame to go around (and don’t think I’m letting NSWRU off the hook here, either - a lot of what they did with junior rugby in 05/06 is unforgivable) but your piece provides no balance.
Perhaps an article outlining potential solutions to Penrith’s problems might be more helpful - because if there’s one thing you and I can agree on, Andrew, surely it’s that rugby needs Penrith to be stronger than it is. (Can I start us off by saying that Yoda’s suggestion of the points system like Jim Beam Cup is a great one and one I have heard bandied around before. If only I had the confidence in the more powerful Premiership Clubs to vote against their own interests and adopt it).
stillmissit said | May 9th 2008 @ 3:04pm | Report comment
Yikes
I am hardly the one to call for common sense here, I have been one eyed and lacking facts in my attacks on the NSWRU as much as anybody.
My thoughts are that an article that presents one side of the argument has as much validity as a balanced article. I would venture to say I haven’t seen a ‘balanced’ article in the Australian press for years leave alone one that does investigative reporting. Everyone has an agenda and a point to make and Andrews ‘right’ is as strong or stronger than most, as he works at it.
It is really up to those who agree with the NSWRU to state their point of view. It is not acceptable for them to say “we won’t comment” or the fear that it might not be PC. Come on out and have your say. I have not seen a post on here that supports the NSWRU except when they sacked EM.
If you want balanced discussion I suggest you join a zen monastery there won’t be much out here.
Carcass said | May 9th 2008 @ 3:16pm | Report comment
I have read this article with great interest and the comments that have flowed from it have been on the whole well thought out and very passionate.
The disappointing thing however has been that almost everyone has been wanting to blame someone for what is wrong and what has happened in the past yet very few ideas to solutions have been offered.
Blue Mountains Subbies club up the Road started a junior club last year with one junior team and this year they now have 5 junior teams. Why people willing to put the time in to get the club up and running and do something for the kids.
At the end of last year Penrith ran Friday Night footy for the U/5-U/10 and had 80 players registered it was very well run and the kids had a ball (my son being one of them). Most of these kids were league and soccer players looking for something to do during the summer. However come winter they are back playing their other sports. Most of the players came to Friday night footy due the exposure of the Ball and all programs NSWRU ran in local primary schools.
One parent complained that his son at a local primary school had never heard anything about rugby at the school and told the Competition organizers they should be doing more. When he was informed that the particular school had been approached 4 times and they had refused he was gobsmacked (NSWRU could not get into them all because some schools did not have room in their time table to accommodate the free program or staff were not interested in having rugby at their school)
So access into schools is an issue
Another issue is when games are played. Western Zone Junior rugby plays on a Saturday in direct competition to the junior rugby league, soccer and AFL. Would we get more numbers by playing on Friday nights or on Sundays. We have to be creative in what we are doing. Maybe midweek games are the answer as has happened with the U85kg competition the Subbies is running.
How do we get and retain volunteers? This is not unique to rugby it is happening in all sports and any new ideas here would be welcome to anyone involved in sport.
These are the points we should be looking at going forward. Players and parents will come to a club that is well run and looks after it players as Blue Mountains has shown with its development in only a year. People involved in a club have to all put in as many hands make light work for all. Yes money does definitely help and no one would knock it back but more people to put their hand and say yes I will coach that team run the water cook the BQQ on a Thursday night after training are the things that will definitely not only help Penrith but all clubs in similar situations.
Any other ideas to help the situation are what are needed let’s hear some.
Yikes said | May 9th 2008 @ 3:16pm | Report comment
Stillmissit - fair point. I suppose this site is “sports opinion”, not a newspaper (although it does seem to reprint news stories). My apologies to Andrew - he can write what he wants.
stillmissit said | May 9th 2008 @ 3:44pm | Report comment
Yikes
my view again is that you offered as much to this discussion as anyone outside of FAB and Andew. I didn’t mean to play the school master and chastise you for your opinions. Your thoughts are intelligent and well worth reading.
Peter Fenton said | May 9th 2008 @ 4:48pm | Report comment
Stillmissit asked about our attempts to get volunteers at Penrith.We went about it in the normal way. Personal approaches to ex players, announcements at home games, articles in the loacl press, which is extremely supportive of the club. The results were abysmal..At Parramatta 1977-81 and Eastwood 1986-91 things were a a lot easier. I actaully had 4 team managers in first grade at Eastwood!! If we’d had Roebuck,Tuynman, Papworth and Burke it might have been more attractive to the Penrith fellows I guess. BUT I know that all clubs are finding it more difficult to attract vounteers now. I believe there is a feeling of why should I be volunteering when players are being paid a fortune and administrors as well. They were voluteers once too.
I have never ben interested in rugby politics. I have alway rejected overtures to stand on a committe or worse still be president. My joy has always come from the areas of liniment and sweat. Having said that it is totally absurd to me that a group of club presidents, under pressure fromm the Union, could cut the Sydney competeion to ten or even 12 clubs with no rugby west of Concord Oval when so many rugby payers live west of Parramatta. This has been on the cards more than once.
To prevent this some some senior body with clout, probably dierectly answerable to the ARU, should determine where clubs should be just as they determine where Super 14 franchises should be. This applies not only to Sydney’s west. Is this possible? Is this logical. Is this radical? One thing we all know is that as AFL ARL and Soccer prepare to attack the growth areas they won’t be asking the new clubs to field and finace, 5 grade teams and 3 colts teams. By the way, you may, or may not know the Parramatta licensed club, establishe late 60s or early 70s and from where we travelled to first grade grand-finals from 1975 to 1986 ( three times sucessfully) will close its doors later this month and will apparenlty be sold by the league’s club to become home units. Fab
Rob said | May 9th 2008 @ 7:11pm | Report comment
Yikes, your head is up your arse. Darren Coleman got the job at Penrith in attempt to further his own career. As soon as they won a few games he signed to follow the dollars to Nth Suburbs. By the end of his tenure at Norths the players hated his guts and the board was close to sacking him anyway. You are an apologist for all that is wrong in NSW rugby.
stillmissit said | May 9th 2008 @ 9:07pm | Report comment
Fab
It never ceases to amaze me that in a town like Sydney which grows like topsy rugby administrators would be trying to reduce the playing footprint.
I can only assume that these people have no balls. I also believe that John O’Neil would be grinding his teeth about the politics and the lack of a concerted effort in the face of potential disaster. They went bankrupt a few years ago and the ARU had to bail them out and yet there seems to be no plan that lays out where they are going and what they plan to do.
Where are they allocating funds what are the outrageous goals, the realistic goals and this seasons tactics? I have heard nothing about any of this the only mantra I have heard is we must win the S14. Well th