I’m a relative newcomer to rugby generally (just after professionalism) and a passionate NSW club rugby supporter - ie I came on board long after the club scene’s heyday. It heartens me to see that so many actually care enough about the game at this level to engage in this kind of debate. While I don’t really know a great deal about the specifics of Penrith and NSWRU I think it all ends up not making a huge difference if other matters aren’t dealt with.

Terry mentioned above the lack of media coverage. In past years you could find a least something on club rugby in the herald, but so far this year I think there’s only been one story. I’m hoping that once the S14 is finished some column space can be given to it but I wouldn’t hold my breath. Another is the attendances at games. Arguments like the above about growing the game in certain regions and bringing players through won’t count for much if noone shows up and supports the team anyway. I don’t have an answer for this one; I know a few things were tried when the Shute shield was pushed aside in favour of Premier Rugby (ie night games and Sunday afternoons) but I assume they didn’t take off.

Still, there are some bright spots. I think one thing that will really help is to take away the predictability of the teams really in contention for the title (in my time it’s really only been Uni, Eastwood, Randwick, followed by Easts and the Rats with Manly and maybe Souths occasionally threatening). The resurgence of Wests this season is just what’s needed, it’s seems they put the broom through the place and shook up the whole structure with a professional and committed approach. I’d love nothing more than to see them win the shield or at least make the grand final. Equally, I’d love to see Parramatta become a force again, and of course Penrith.

Anyway, I still enjoy getting along to Millner when I can and watching the Woodies, and at $60 a season membership is a small price to pay to help out in some small way.

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How is it rugby can generally ball’s up any attempt to make the best of itself. We see this time and again where either intractability or just ‘geez I didnt know that’ bring about either a marketing miss or stuff an opportunity to take advantage of an opportunity.

It always strikes me that rugby administrators either don’t talk to one another or worse they are so arrogant that they don’t want to discuss what is going on with other administrators. You know the situation “I know this piss potting little peice of information and you are not getting it”. Eventually professionalism will wash all of this away in the relentless drive for more money from the product.

Maybe even the west will be won.

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I was asked last year to be “Ambassador” for the Western Sydney Rams, an honorary, enjoyable and not too demanding task. I attended their game against the Central Coast Rays.It was a perfect day, in a perfect setting at the beautiful Bluetongue Stadium by the water in Gosford. A pleasant one hour drive from Sydney. The Rams were leading the competition, playing exciting open Rugby with Kurtley Beale and Lachie Turner showing great form. Surely a good crowd would turn up. Sadly not. Less than 3,000 in a stadium that held 7 or 8 times that number. Most of them from Sydney

As it transpired it was Central Coast Rugby’s grand final day. All the fans from Avoca, Terrigal, The Entrance etc were naturally watching their boys play. Apparently overtures had been made to have the locals move their grand final day and one of the main issues was that of lost revenue from their canteen. So a showpiece game in a national competition, desperately trying to establish itself, was the loser, as were those locals who would liked to have seen the grand final and the rep game. Moral of the story?. Co-operation and co-ordination go hand in hand. One without the other is like Beer with no bubble. Better then nothing but half as good as it should be. Fab

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This program was run by Volunteer coaches (most of whom were from outside Western Sydney) who again were giving up their time to take these squads many of whom had their own commitments on weekends and thus they could not run the sessions on the weekends for these 15 players.

I agree whole heartedly that the competition needs to be made stronger and the whole structure of juniors and schools rugby needs to be reviewed so that the best teams are playing the best teams week in and week out (this is a major problem in schools rugby as well). But there is no way that I can see currently that either side is willing to change it stance of how their territory is run.

The sad fact is NSWRU has no control over these bodies at all and until they (or the ARU) do and are given the mandate to run the game properly then nothing will change.

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You said ” One thing we all know is that as AFL ARL and Soccer prepare to attack the growth areas they won’t be asking the new clubs to field and finace, 5 grade teams and 3 colts teams” …………. and you are right ! ! !

I assume you are correct with the 5 grade and 3 colt teams, …………… it beggers belief ………….. you would expect any organisation to successfully meet this kinda of target from where they started from

As a comprassion the following is how the A-League teams where set up. Each team was expected to have in Hal 1, 20 players 4 of which had to be juniors (under 18 ) raising to 23 players in Hal 3.

In Hal 4 (2008 /09), and after government funding each of the A-League teams will have a youth league team, thus the playing roster will be raised to 35 players over the two squads.

Each A-League club to made there own arrangements with local associations. Further A - League teams where instructured to leave the running of the park teams and associations to the locals.

One model sets up people to fail and one model set up people to suceed;— your guess which model is set to fail, and set to suceed. It all comes down to management in the end or lack there of.

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Stillmissit - I didn’t take your comment the wrong way - I suppose Andrew can make his argument and I can make mine. I’m just disappointed not to see a balanced approach, but I agree on a site like this I can’t really demand it like you might at a newspaper.

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It never ceases to amaze me that in a town like Sydney which grows like topsy rugby administrators would be trying to reduce the playing footprint.

I can only assume that these people have no balls. I also believe that John O’Neil would be grinding his teeth about the politics and the lack of a concerted effort in the face of potential disaster. They went bankrupt a few years ago and the ARU had to bail them out and yet there seems to be no plan that lays out where they are going and what they plan to do.

Where are they allocating funds what are the outrageous goals, the realistic goals and this seasons tactics? I have heard nothing about any of this the only mantra I have heard is we must win the S14. Well that’s great but there are many steps to get there and a lot of other things to do apart from this.

It is well you steer clear of politics in rugby it is a fools game played by eunuchs.

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I have never ben interested in rugby politics. I have alway rejected overtures to stand on a committe or worse still be president. My joy has always come from the areas of liniment and sweat. Having said that it is totally absurd to me that a group of club presidents, under pressure fromm the Union, could cut the Sydney competeion to ten or even 12 clubs with no rugby west of Concord Oval when so many rugby payers live west of Parramatta. This has been on the cards more than once.

To prevent this some some senior body with clout, probably dierectly answerable to the ARU, should determine where clubs should be just as they determine where Super 14 franchises should be. This applies not only to Sydney’s west. Is this possible? Is this logical. Is this radical? One thing we all know is that as AFL ARL and Soccer prepare to attack the growth areas they won’t be asking the new clubs to field and finace, 5 grade teams and 3 colts teams. By the way, you may, or may not know the Parramatta licensed club, establishe late 60s or early 70s and from where we travelled to first grade grand-finals from 1975 to 1986 ( three times sucessfully) will close its doors later this month and will apparenlty be sold by the league’s club to become home units. Fab

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my view again is that you offered as much to this discussion as anyone outside of FAB and Andew. I didn’t mean to play the school master and chastise you for your opinions. Your thoughts are intelligent and well worth reading.

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The disappointing thing however has been that almost everyone has been wanting to blame someone for what is wrong and what has happened in the past yet very few ideas to solutions have been offered.

Blue Mountains Subbies club up the Road started a junior club last year with one junior team and this year they now have 5 junior teams. Why people willing to put the time in to get the club up and running and do something for the kids.

At the end of last year Penrith ran Friday Night footy for the U/5-U/10 and had 80 players registered it was very well run and the kids had a ball (my son being one of them). Most of these kids were league and soccer players looking for something to do during the summer. However come winter they are back playing their other sports. Most of the players came to Friday night footy due the exposure of the Ball and all programs NSWRU ran in local primary schools.

One parent complained that his son at a local primary school had never heard anything about rugby at the school and told the Competition organizers they should be doing more. When he was informed that the particular school had been approached 4 times and they had refused he was gobsmacked (NSWRU could not get into them all because some schools did not have room in their time table to accommodate the free program or staff were not interested in having rugby at their school)

So access into schools is an issue

Another issue is when games are played. Western Zone Junior rugby plays on a Saturday in direct competition to the junior rugby league, soccer and AFL. Would we get more numbers by playing on Friday nights or on Sundays. We have to be creative in what we are doing. Maybe midweek games are the answer as has happened with the U85kg competition the Subbies is running.

How do we get and retain volunteers? This is not unique to rugby it is happening in all sports and any new ideas here would be welcome to anyone involved in sport.

These are the points we should be looking at going forward. Players and parents will come to a club that is well run and looks after it players as Blue Mountains has shown with its development in only a year. People involved in a club have to all put in as many hands make light work for all. Yes money does definitely help and no one would knock it back but more people to put their hand and say yes I will coach that team run the water cook the BQQ on a Thursday night after training are the things that will definitely not only help Penrith but all clubs in similar situations.

Any other ideas to help the situation are what are needed let’s hear some.

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I am hardly the one to call for common sense here, I have been one eyed and lacking facts in my attacks on the NSWRU as much as anybody.

My thoughts are that an article that presents one side of the argument has as much validity as a balanced article. I would venture to say I haven’t seen a ‘balanced’ article in the Australian press for years leave alone one that does investigative reporting. Everyone has an agenda and a point to make and Andrews ‘right’ is as strong or stronger than most, as he works at it.

It is really up to those who agree with the NSWRU to state their point of view. It is not acceptable for them to say “we won’t comment” or the fear that it might not be PC. Come on out and have your say. I have not seen a post on here that supports the NSWRU except when they sacked EM.

If you want balanced discussion I suggest you join a zen monastery there won’t be much out here.

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Gibson had nothing to do with development issues and community rugby whatsoever, certainly he didn’t approve anything. And hadn’t done since before he became the Waratahs’ Manager. You’ve taken 2 facts: Gibson was involved with development out west in 1999, and Gibson was sacked in 2007 and connected them. It’s just sloppy, and misleading. You were trying to paint a picture that the west suffered when Gibson was dismissed.

On the juniors issue - it is not a mere matter of quibbling over terminology, it’s a matter of structures. Was your article trying to explain why Penrith are struggling or not? Then a thorough misunderstanding of junior pathways and what turns school-aged players into colts and senior players hurts your article. The point you make in your post above: “…if the senior club had a few rep players and was winning some games, some of these kids might actually consider giving rugby a real go” is exactly the same failed sentiment you highlight in your main article “Fix Penrith, and you’ll grow rugby in the west”. Did it happen? It certainly doesn’t appear so.”

My point on the ADI site is - did you, in the preparation for this article - speak to any of the people involved in the decision not to move ahead to ask for their reasoning? Did you speak to anyone involved in junior development to see what is currently being done in the west? Did you speak to anyone involved with Premiership administration to see what financial support has been offered to Penrith in recent years? Did you speak to anyone to see what coaching support is currently being provided by NSWRU to Penrith? I would hazard a guess - no, no, no and no. And yet you put a piece together that directly attacks NSWRU for “snubbing” and “almost completely ignoring” Penrith, and get defensive when I call it a polemic.

And here we come to the point - Andrew, you think I am being personal and needlessly hostile. I’m sorry for that - but what I see is that you are presenting one-sided opinions and reaching conclusions that are not only misleading, but actively damaging to the prospects of rugby in NSW moving forward. Look at all of the anti-NSWRU bile your article elicited from the readership here. All happy to read and believe information that doesn’t show the full picture and doesn’t address the complexity of the issues at play. There is plenty of blame to go around (and don’t think I’m letting NSWRU off the hook here, either - a lot of what they did with junior rugby in 05/06 is unforgivable) but your piece provides no balance.

Perhaps an article outlining potential solutions to Penrith’s problems might be more helpful - because if there’s one thing you and I can agree on, Andrew, surely it’s that rugby needs Penrith to be stronger than it is. (Can I start us off by saying that Yoda’s suggestion of the points system like Jim Beam Cup is a great one and one I have heard bandied around before. If only I had the confidence in the more powerful Premiership Clubs to vote against their own interests and adopt it).

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Good to see Yikes back on air and once again taking me to task. I particularly liked the description of my work as a “polemic”. For those of you who are not as verbally agile as Yikes, the Oxford dictionary describes a polemic as a “controversial discussion” or a “verbal or written attack, esp/ on a political opponent”, so it is probably a fitting description for Yikes’ work as well as my own.

Yikes - I feel that you are needlessly hostile in your comments, and while I concede that there is room for interpretation, I feel that you may have unnecessarily taken issue with specific terminology. For example…”Let’s start with the bizarre notion that Dave Gibson was spending (at least at the time of his dismissal in the role of Commerical and Operations) even one second on development out west, let alone “driving” it. He wasn’t, and hadn’t been involved with development for many many years.”. I’m sure no-one, least of all me, believes that Gibson in his capacity as GM - Commercial and Operations was ever running around out west running drills for junior rugby clubs or schools. However, it would be reasonable to believe that if the GM - Comm Ops was not in favour of development activity, it would not be happening, so perhaps your issue is really with my use of the term “driving”. Perhaps I should have said “approved by”, or “signed off on by” which may have had a different connotation.

Same point re juniors. Sure…OK…you got me. Mea culpa. They’re not really juniors in the truest sense of the word. However, as you say yourself, there aren’t too many genuine junior clubs feeding into Penrith, so they have to make the best of what they have ie schools. And you’ve have to think that, if the senior club had a few rep players and was winning some games, some of these kids might actually consider giving rugby a real go - whereas at the moment it is a midweek novelty.

Finally, my point about the ADI project was not to suggest that it would have fixed all the woes in one fell swoop. Simply to show that despite an opportunity to be involved in a major rugby facilities project in the west, NSW chose to do nothing, rather than do something. It’s about as simple as I can make it.

Like I said earlier, I look forward to your comments for two reasons - a) the counterpoint which is always valuable; and b) the insight you have which is clearly factual and born out of a good understanding of rugby.

Unfortunately, they might have a greater impact without the personal attacks and sarcasm. I’m sure many of the contributors would agree - not everyone who has a different view is the enemy.

Cheers…

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In my mind the first step that must be taken is to increase the interest in rugby in Western Sydney, and all other areas, and to do this the game must be visible in the media, visual and written, if you achieve the visual the written will follow.

Achieving the visual might come down to JON and the ARU because it will involve getting Fox to agree to release some televised rugby matches to FTA and the internet, even if they are delayed replays. Its my belief that even delayed replays on Saturday or Sunday afternoons (currently often filled by old movies or re-runs of old sitcoms) would be more useful than only Pay TV access (and Fox would have to admit that Pay TV is not penetrating the private home as much as they would like). The internet is also a growing medium, the same games could be made available for download and playing on PCs or buring onto DVDs for viewing on larger tv screens ….. it is the kids we wish to target who will embrace this medium. Internet access and computers are far more prevalent in private homes than Pay TV.

If the ARU and NSW RU can engage the interest of the kids then they will come looking for somewhere to become involved. It then comes down to the NSW RU putting the junior and district structures in place ….. and that becomes the second, third and subsequent steps of an action plan.

I have no stats or research to back up what I have said, it is all gut feel from what I have read earlier in this thread, but IMHO it would be a good start.

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The tragedy here is that nobody disagrees with you or Westy’s point about getting the game to where the kids are. Nobody seems to care enough to do anything about it. Or more likely they see it and agree with it but they have more important things on the cards that will always take presidence.

You also state that there was difficulty getting volunteers even during a golden period, I believe this persists today. It also suggests that the people at the top of Penrith either didn’t know how to or tried and failed to get more volunteers into the club. This is a critical factor as all rugby clubs are totally reliant on volunteers. What is your opinion on why the club failed to attract more volunteers?

If it was easy the West would have been done years ago. Unfortunately we don’t have anybody at the top of NSW rugby who believes just because it’s hard is why they should do it!

Obviously at the AFL they have such men.

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ROGER refers to Scott Johnson as “one of Penrith’s favourite sons.” Believe me he is a “favourite son” in lots of places. He is not parochial but ses the game in aholistic way. I am tempted to convince hm to relate some stories of his development officer days and the difficulties of convinciong those at Concord that the West was worth extra effort above those ares already well served. He will be back from the US Wenesday.

SPIRO names me as the Sydney coach when we beat the All Blacks at Penrith. I wish this were true, it was Jeff Sayle. More importantly he expresses surprised that the NSWRU did not approach the Panthers. Spiro They DID, through their CEO. We were looking for sponsorship from them, $300,000 over a 3 year period. The CEO promised them that NSWRU would organise a high profile office in the a main street of Penrith from which full paid developmwent officers would operate. The Waratahs would play at leat two important fixtures at Panthers Stadium each year, players who were bought from league or interestate would be encouraged through contracts to play at Penrith and that NSWRU would put much work into helping establish junior clubs in the district. I still have acopy of the document outllining these plans left with the Panthers board, unsigned.
What resulted? The development boys worked out of two disused council offices not visible from the street, we never saw a contracted payer though there were plenty, we got a game at in the pre-season with one of the NZ provinces and the Waratahs. The game was given no worthwhile advertising ( a suggestion by Scott Johnson that each kid be given a cheap rugby T- shirt and that he would approach one of the major newspapers to fund the venture was kyboshed). On a freezing night a crowd of about 4,000 attenede to see the game which was preceded by the Penrith 1st XV and the Classic Wallabies.
There were some meetings re the juniors but nothing came of them and the Panthers board told NSWRU ‘Come back when you are fair fdinkum.” We didn’t get the sponsorship though the Panthers did support us to a minor degree in other ways as they did with most local sporting clubs.

YODA said Penrith were not equippped to come into first division. He was right, a fact shown after just a few training sessions. I saw the proposal that got them in and the expectations were totally unrealistic.
HATCHET said that putting the Argies at Penrith would be like putting a team at Devils Island with the World cup in France. On the contrary Hatchet, the place was made to accommodate them or any other team. Accommodation at the Panthers, the training ground across the road, the rowing centre two miles down the road and the Olympic Satadium 20 mintes away repeat 20 minutes, by coach. The appalling part was the Welsh were interested through Johnno’s connection but we were already committed to the Argies so knocked them back. You’re not from Woolahra are you Hatchet?

YIKE is ovbviously passionate about this subject and sees things differently to many. He is working with the juniors so I undestand that . Your point about juniors as opposed to shool players is well takent. Still Yike I think your denegration of the author’s article and his rerseach is a bit overe the top. I’m sure you are young. And fiery. Good on you but restraint is also a virtue. You mention Penrith’s siege mentlity. Yes there is one. Iit must be overcome but it has been well fuelled by the constant threat of relegation and a belief that the good players will find their way to the top( like David Dennis and Kurtley Beale) with or without Penrith. Pat Wilson, who was running club rugby at the time, told me “Fab I know this will hurt you but it really doesn’t matter if Penrith has a good team or not. The good players will gravitate to strong clubs and make it if they are good enough.” Peter Niumata, a wonderful young Penrith prop, had just got a lucrsative contract with Queensland. To Pat this proved te point. He was, and still is is, a bood mate of mine but he coudn’t see how many more young players would come to the fore if they had a team to aspire to. Yike also says Penrith has ” landed on their feet” at Western Weekender Stadium. It’s been a bloody long fall. The Western Weekender is privately owned by a a Penrith rugby enthusiast.

Enough of the past and who did what to who. Surely what matters is that Australia needs to increase its player base and WESTY sums things up succinctly and without bias when he says ” The game is where the kids are not.” Unless this is corrected we will slowly become irrelevant. Fab

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Penrith aside, and there problems as you suggest at Penrith, NSW rugby has been run very poorly over a number of years. Poorly run is kind and I see Andrew article as much as anything else highlighting some of these problems.

Concord Oval, Mac bank and friends saved the day, but AFL may even get control yet of Concord, I know this has nothing to do with Penrith. But the Penirth issues are symptonmatic of the way NSW rugby has been run over the years. On the information I have it was NSW RU that put the knife into the Parramatta Eels / Western Sydney bid for a s14 spot. This was the only real way to grow the game in the west.

Balance is needed I agree, but debate on NSW RU and its management is long overdue.

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Your call to arms is well meant but how the hell is it going to be instituted? The NSWRU when I looked over the names doesn’t have a board member from the West or the South (I am guessing and would love to be proven wrong). Without someone who can actually speak logically about people in the West and motivate the board to do something constructive, little can be achieved.

I sympathise with the Blazers as they believe they have done all they could to make inroads into the West but they missed a critical point. They assumed there would be a natural affinity with the game once they started to play rugby at school i.e. a more complex game requiring strategy and brains as well as strength and determination would be attractive to them and bind them for life. This is not the case out here as there are so many alternatives and what you play at school doesn’t necessarily dictate what you play after school. There are only 2 influences I can see, one is their mates and what they do, the other is television. Few of their mates play rugby and you can’t see it on the TV, so why play the game?

We can’t change the FTA TV situation so the only thing to do is get as many mates playing for one club as possible. I don’t have an answer to how we do this but it is the best I can think of. Once there is a consistent level of success out here it develops it’s own momentum.

Yikes - your arguments are fine with me, this debate needs a balance, if it becomes a “Poor people in the West” bullshit we won’t get anywhere either.

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Basically, it’s easier to accept a simple answer (that NSWRU are evil incompetents), than to accept that there are complex realities at play here (missed opportunities from NSWRU; poor management at Penrith itself; logistical, cultural, structural and geographical barriers that make cracking western sydney difficult).

Andrew’s article feeds into the former mindset, because it only presents one side of the story. That’s not research and journalism, that’s a polemic.

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I think you have missed the central message of this article, ………… NSW rugby is an inept inward looking organisation who in the broader interest of rugby need to be held to account for there lack of forward planning.

I do not see how you can defend these guys and there past performance.

In football despite all its past problems and there were so many the Roar server could not handle if you were to list them. But they somehow grow the game and let it grow. Big call but NSW rugby is on a level of management of the old NSL and its good that Andrew has exposed some of these failings for public debate.

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BTW, I agree re naming individuals. That wasn’t what I was after but rather an analysis of the motives for something that really would put rugby back to the stone age out west - the removal of Penrith as a Premiership club.

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I am not sure who was in charge of rugby development in the West from the NSWRU point of view but the only name I have heard from schools and Penrith rugby people is Ben Berriman. This young teacher worked tirelessly and established many rugby schools in the area under the banner “The Game for All Sizes”. A couple of brothers who are local rugby supporters also established rugby in some schools, standing against strong league opposition. They are developers and do this with their own money for the love of the game.

From my point of view there are a couple of issues in terms of getting the school kids into Penrith. Basically there are 2 different cultures in the area one is the Mount Druitt area boys, mostly islanders with great natural skills but no desire to train or turn up on Saturday (With noticable exceptions)- see Peter Fentons comment above. It’s the boys from the Blue mountains who turn up to most training sessions. The Mount Druitt boys all want to be paid, as they are in league, and the Blue Mountains boys see the Islander boys getting more attention than they do. Every 18 year old kid out here with talent can get a run in league for $250 a game. In Penrith they do it for love unless they are in 1st grade. Now this is OK with the Blue Mountains boys and they can see the possibility of being seen in 1st grade and possibly getting a run in the S14. The islander boys think this is great too but where is the money now.

This is a culture problem as much as anything else and fix this and the club will boom assuming they can get more volunteers to help out.

Regarding the push to out Penrith and Souths a lot has been writen about this in other areas. I wrote an emotional outburst on this situation when I heard about it. Naming people doesnt help here as there is a compromise that needs to be established and a plan to work together to build rugby union in NSW and all rugby people agree with this aim.

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