By Eamonn Flanagan
May 9th 2008 @ 1:04am
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Rugby League: The first code to crack?
“Test football is at a crossroads”, says Todd Balym on this site. Maybe he should have written, “rugby league is at a crossroads”.
Cash rich AFL is on the warpath. Football is on the rise. Super 14 union will expand under John O’Neill. Pokie funds are drying up. So where is the rugby league good news story coming from?
League domestic crowds are struggling, despite what the averages might say. Empty stands, never mind empty seats, just don’t inspire the punters. There were 9,000 for Souths or 11,000 for West Tigers against the crowd-pulling Brisbane Broncos last weekend in the 88,000 all-seated ANZ Stadium. It looks bleak.
It’s hard for the players, hard for the commentators, hard for the 9,000 people.
Do you really want to go to a game like that? Do you really want to watch a game like that on TV?
Clearly we don’t. TV audiences in the crucial Sydney market are plummeting. Last week the ABC Friday night program got more viewers than league.
Wait, there’s more.
With fat cats AFL threatening to take league on in Sydney and the Gold Coast, over the coming winter seasons, league may have just reached it’s giddy peak.
Kids don’t want to play junior League. Things are so bad, league and union are even thinking of joining the junior codes to boost numbers and save resources.
Five pages were devoted to Souths’ first win of the season in this week’s Sydney Morning Herald, yet attendances showed 9,000 turned up in an 88,000 seater. That’s one page per 2,000 paying customers!
If they had the same measure in footy mad Melbourne, we’d have to sit through 38 pages for a Hawthorns win in front of 76,000 on the same weekend. Maybe we did, I haven’t looked!
The International Centenary Test has sold 7,500 tickets. Is anyone surprised. Could league have sold any less without blanket TV and newspaper coverage in New South Wales?
From where I sit, despite the massive push in the papers and on TV, few people value International league in New Zealand, Britain or Australia. In modern times, they never have.
There is only so much space for growth in the Australian football codes. And League should stick to what they do best: State against State, mate against mate; Origin and Grand Finals.
And get out of ANZ stadium fast. Did the CEO David Gallop really think that two NRL sides could fill it week after week?
Take the game back to the smaller, local grounds in Sydney. After all, 9,000 in a 15,000 stadium looks good and sounds good.
From 100 years of International League, what have we really learned?
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(118)
chas said | May 9th 2008 @ 7:49am | Report comment
Eamonn:
Rubbish!!!!
Longy said | May 9th 2008 @ 7:54am | Report comment
On the Gold Coast the media has been pushing the Titans tune to absolute death and even when they play Broncos they can’t fill the stadium. AFL will be a huge winner and maybe if the GC Breakers are able to move into Super rugby??? Interesting days ahead…………..
Blind Freddy said | May 9th 2008 @ 9:45am | Report comment
what have we really learned? That you have no idea.
Let’s all bag league for having international competitions (yet it is trying). Let’s all bag AFL for having none (yet it is trying). Let’s all bag RU for having nothing but an international competition (yet it is trying).
Every code has issues. Get over it.
And by the way, the NRL don’t tell clubs where to play their games. its not a dictatorship. Provided a sport is financially viable, it wouldn’t matter where it was played, nor in front of how many people at the ground.
El Capitan said | May 9th 2008 @ 9:46am | Report comment
It is sad to see such large stadiums not really full of supporters. But you get that in almost every code (bar AFL). I go to the Reds games and 20,000 at Lang Park is not the same 20,000 at Ballymore. I agree that most matches should be played at smaller venues, and the cracker blockbusters played in the larger stadiums.
Its a terrible time when Sydney can’t fill the SCG for 100yrs of League. Brisbane has already sold 25,000 for the RLWC final and you don’t even know whos playing. Perhaps the culture shift has moved from Sydney to Queensland?
The Link said | May 9th 2008 @ 10:52am | Report comment
Eamonn, how can you summise that domestic crowds are struggling based on one crowd figure? Also, what do you base your comment on that kids are not playing League?
TV figures plummeting?!!?? Generally speaking League is something that people are more likely to watch on TV than go to the game. I’d even go so far to suggest that its the number one winter code for TV ratings in NSW and QLD on free to air and pay, hardly plummeting. Remember that Super 14 and A-League are sheltered from the furnace of Free to Air competition. O’Neil’s push to expand S14 is out of necessity to try to land a good outcome for the next TV deal IMO. Otherwise the Fox number crunchers are going to question the S14 ratings
Perhaps you’ll get your guilty little fix as well during Origin this year?
W Warambeal said | May 9th 2008 @ 12:47pm | Report comment
Eamonn you’re a little pedantic about the Titans & Broncos crowd at the GC. The game was a sell-out - a couple of hundred didn’t turn up. So what!
Anyway up till last weekend NRL crowds were up by about 500 per game on the previous season. Only three games this season so far have had sub 10,000 crowds. It is during the SOOs tht the NRL crowds really plummet. So in that regard the SOO games are counterproductive.
Union & soccer can’t get their competitions onto FTA.
AFL which self-publicises itself on being a national competition has two largely transported teams in states with over 55% of Australia’s population. Home games involving the Swans & Lions come 4th or 5th in their home markets on FTA TV.A few years ago the Brisbane Lions could on 180,000 viewers in the South-East Queensland region;last week they got under 80,000. (Incidentally the Titans & Broncos game rated 301,000.)
here’s a copy of a blog about the AFL’s TV audience in Brisbane & Sydney:
1. The first 7 Rounds of Swans viewers in Sydney, and Lions viewers in Brisbane, we get a cumulative:
Sydney 589,200
Brisbane 571,000
So 1.1m viewers for 14 games.
2. The last regular Friday night NRL (before Anzac Day, was 18th April):
NINE’S LIVE FRIDAY NIGHT FOOTBALL Nine 673,000 372,000 301,000
NINE’S FRIDAY NIGHT FOOTBALL Nine 401,000 262,000 139,000
That’s close to 1.1m viewers on the night, over 2 games, of which the second was delayed.
(You can throw in the obviously puny numbers for those other 2 AFL games that have no data, they clearly didn’t make the Top 100 programs for the week, and as such they won’t make much of a difference).
So, after a third of the season, one Friday night of NRL in Sydney and Brisbane is the same as one third of the Swans and Lions total viewership for the year.
AFL in Sydney and Brisbane :loL:
http://72.52.152.33/~leagueun/forums/showthread.php?t=104804&page=253
Last week’s Pay TV numbers:
Top 50 Subscription TV Program Broadcasts
National STV Program List: All People - w/c 27 Apr 2008 Weekly
# Highest STV Program Broadcast Channel Day Time
B/cast Only B/cast & Plus2 Total STV Reach (000s)
1 LIVE: NRL KNIGHTS V TITANS Fox Sports 2 Sat 17:30 288 288 1,161 637
2 LIVE & ACTIVE: AFL HAWTHORN V RICHMOND Fox Sports 1 Sun 16:32 284 284 1,188 708
3 LIVE: NRL PANTHERS V EELS Fox Sports 2 Sat 19:30 256 256 1,307 609
4 LIVE: NRL TITANS V WARRIORS Fox Sports 2 Sun 14:00 240 240 1,227 524
5 FAMILY GUY FOX8 Wed 18:46 161 217 896 1,056
6 LIVE: AFL BRISBANE LIONS V MELBOURNE Fox Sports 1 Sun 13:00 158 158 1,179 552
7 FUTURAMA FOX8 Wed 18:21 153 213 813 1,019
8 LIVE: AFL GEELONG V BRISBANE LIONS Fox Sports 1 Sat 14:00 150 150 1,029 493
9 THE SIMPSONS FOX8 Wed 19:11 139 163 962 1,767
10 AUSTRALIA’S NEXT TOP MODEL FOX8 Tue 19:30 128 255 1,051 696
11 SELLING HOUSES AUSTRALIA Lifestyle Wed 19:30 128 169 1,085 550
12 LIVE: NRL SATURDAY PRE GAME SHOW Fox Sports 2 Sat 16:55 124 124 1,017 210
13 LIVE: RUGBY UNION: S14 FORCE V CHIEFS Fox Sports 3 Sat 19:30 114 114 1,304 328
14 LIVE: AFL: ON THE COUCH Fox Sports 1 Mon 20:30 113 113 945 242
15 AMERICAN DAD! FOX8 Sun 21:30 111 131 1,205 336
16 LIVE: AFL PRE GAME SHOW Fox Sports 1 Sun 16:04 109 109 1,106 237
17 PROPERTY LADDER Lifestyle Wed 20:33 108 144 1,011 468
18 LIVE: RUGBY UNION: S14 REDS V BLUES Fox Sports 3 Fri 19:30 104 104 994 297
19 NCIS TV1 Sun 19:30 103 123 1,352 822
20 LIVE: AFL ADELAIDE V NORTH MELBOURNE Fox Sports 1 Sat 19:30 102 102 1,246 535
21 THE INSPECTOR LYNLEY MYSTERIES UKTV Sun 20:30 99 120 1,254 258
22 GRAND DESIGNS Lifestyle Thu 20:32 98 124 972 471
23 LIVE: FOOTBALL: EPL MAN UTD V WEST HAM Fox Sports 3 Sat 21:35 97 97 943 359
24 KEEPING UP APPEARANCES UKTV Sun 19:30 96 103 1,329 168
25 LAW & ORDER W Wed 21:23 87 103 990 636
26 LAW & ORDER: SVU TV1 Sat 21:30 86 111 1,157 1,091
27 EASTENDERS UKTV Wed 19:01 85 92 939 323
28 WWE SMACKDOWN! FOX8 Fri 15:30 85 124 833 480
29 AMERICAN IDOL FOX8 Thu 19:38 84 111 1,087 669
30 MY FAMILY UKTV Sun 20:00 84 96 1,391 223
31 LIVE: RUGBY LEAGUE: TOYOTA CUP Fox Sports 2 Sat 15:15 80 80 1,081 381
32 HANNAH MONTANA Disney Channel Wed 17:30 79 79 801 534
33 LIVE: RUGBY UNION: S14 CRUS V SHARKS Fox Sports 3 Fri 17:30 78 78 884 170
34 WWE RAW FOX8 Wed 15:31 78 113 813 540
35 BARGAIN HUNT Lifestyle Thu 21:36 76 88 839 606
36 DALZIEL AND PASCOE UKTV Wed 20:30 75 86 1,016 172
37 LAW & ORDER: CRIMINAL INTENT TV1 Wed 13:01 74 86 514 750
38 LIVE: RUGBY UNION: S14 BULLS V WARATAHS Fox Sports 1 Sat 23:00 74 74 689 211
39 H2O: JUST ADD WATER Disney Channel Sun 17:30 71 71 1,190 298
40 CORY IN THE HOUSE Disney Channel Sun 12:00 69 69 820 340
41 DOC MARTIN UKTV Wed 19:33 69 94 1,094 275
42 THE SUITE LIFE OF ZACK & CODY Disney Channel Thu 07:30 69 69 358 534
43 AS THE BELL RINGS Disney Channel Mon 17:26 68 68 866 208
44 LIVE: RUGBY UNION: S14 H’CANES V LIONS Fox Sports 3 Sat 17:30 67 67 1,161 228
45 PROJECT RUNWAY Arena Mon 20:31 66 103 949 318
46 FRASIER TV1 Sun 19:00 66 78 1,255 458
47 DRY SPELL GARDENING Lifestyle Thu 19:30 66 83 1,075 338
48 TV1′S CASH TRIVIA CHALLENGE TV1 Sun 11:50 65 103 842 593
49 M*A*S*H Fox Classics Wed 19:00 65 79 934 539
50 LIVE: NRL SUNDAY PRE GAME SHOW Fox Sports 2 Sun 13:30 64 64 1,130 132
JimC said | May 9th 2008 @ 2:49pm | Report comment
Eamonn - This is a pathetic effort. I know the Roar is about opinion but surely there must be some basic fact checking. ANZ stadium 88,000? Really.
“Kids don’t want to play junior League” - pure assertion without any evidence.
This isn’t amateur journalism. It isn’t journalism at all. Just drivel.
Redb said | May 9th 2008 @ 2:54pm | Report comment
W Warambeal,
LOL how predictable. Yes lets distract any real discussion with selected TV ratings for NRL over AFL in tradtional NRL states. Your insecurity is obvious.
Now don’t get too scared, but those pay tv numbers show AFL at no. 2 , 6 and 8 in the top ten. Not only are Pay TV subscriptions much lower in traditional AFL states and this should be coupled with the fact not all of the best AFL games are shown live, but if you look back 12 months ago and prior, at least the top 8 games would have all been NRL.
The AFL at least get its supporters to attend its games in NSW and QLD.
For th record I don’t beleive rugby league will be the first to crack, unfortunately it appears more likely to be rugby union in terms of the Australian domestic market.
Redb
Junior said | May 9th 2008 @ 4:03pm | Report comment
“For th record I don’t beleive rugby league will be the first to crack, unfortunately it appears more likely to be rugby union in terms of the Australian domestic market.”
RedB - your grammar is generally fairly solid, but on this occasion you seem to be using the wrong tense. You are also assuming that the pastime that masquerades as rugby union was ever at the same level as the three other three codes. The masses don’t understand the game and find that it makes re-grouting the bathroom seem remarkably exciting.
Paul said | May 9th 2008 @ 4:42pm | Report comment
I’m not quite sure if TV numbers are the best way to determine a sports popularity. TV figures can be engineered by TV promotion. Bums on seats are the best test of a sport’s popularity. On this level Rugby League has been struggling for a long time. But, let history do the talking. This is by no means over.
Rugby League is certainly bigger than AFL in QLD and NSW, but there can be ne denying that the AFL has made up ground. As to figures dropping off for Sydney and Brisbane due to poorer performances of late, they are still very healthy for teams that are not going strong.
Average attendances for 2008 so far:
Brisbane Broncos (League): 40 931
Sydney Swans (AFL): 32 671
NSW Waratahs (Union): 29 641
Brisbane Lions (AFL): 28 956
Canterbury Bulldogs (League): 24 279
Gold Coast Titans (League): 22 645
South Sydney Rabbitohs (League): 21 404
North Queensland Cowboys (League): 20 147
Paramatta Eels (League): 20 121
_______________________________
Queensland Reds (Union): 18 507
Newcastle Knights (League): 17 675
Wests Tigers (League): 16 410
Sydney Roosters (League): 15 431
ACT Brumbies (Union): 14 271
Canberra Raiders (League): 14 063
Cronulla Sharks (League): 13 852
Manly Sea Eagles (League): 12 800
St George Illawara Dragons (League): 12 493
Penrith Panthers (League): 9 171
AFL may only have two teams in the north, but they are matching it quite well, coming in at 2nd and 4th from all codes. The Swans are rating better at the ground than any other team in NSW. There are still around 5 teams with healthy NRL attendances. Penrith look like they are in real trouble though.
I wouldn’t call this curtains for Rugby League though. Also, it is hard to say how well the second teams for AFL will go in QLD and NSW. That will be the real test for the AFL to see if it has what it takes to expand in the north. It does appear that NSW may not be able to continue to support 10 teams in the NRL. A few mergers might be in order so that 6 or 7 clubs can survive well. The suggestion of moving some games to smaller grounds is not a bad idea though. But it’s a bit rough to be sounding the death knells for Rugby. It will always have a place, but no doubt both Rugby codes are being eroded by AFL and A-League. The future is their choice though.
Dave Gilbank said | May 9th 2008 @ 6:38pm | Report comment
Ever sinced I was a lad, and that’s quite a few years now, I have heard devotees from other codes (union and aussie rules) predicting the demise of Rugby League. Indeed, throughout it’s history, those bigoted (yes, BIGOTED) and ignorant detractors from across the great footballing divide have tried to instigate some kind of popular momentum away from supporting a sport which has not been afraid to try and change its rules so that it can attract a fan-base that is eager to see players running with the ball more often. Indeed, there is no other sport which can boast such “ball-carrying-in-play” time as League has. Threatened by this, and flexing their media-dominance infiltrated by opinion-leaders and cardres soaked in bigotry, they have been able to give League a kicking, even though it possesses greater aesthetic potential.
League fans, please remember: these Bigots are only on the other side of the footballing fence because a) their daddy’s liked Aussie rules b) they and daddy and grandaddy went to private school and barely watched a game of League (if they did it was 20 years ago) and c)they are frightened of what League represents - supreme commercial adaptability which has managed to keep the essence of dynamic ball-running at it’s core. Forget the bigots - revel in our wonderful, scintiallting sport and its top-class athletes.
As for the bigots - Forgive them, because they know not what they do….
The Link said | May 9th 2008 @ 10:32pm | Report comment
Paul, query, how much of a percentage of revenue are TV deals vs gate for NRL and AFL? I’m interested in your assertion that gate is the sole reason for the success of a code.
RedB, last week was a reduced round for NRL (kinda like the old ’split’ rounds), so it is worthless in comparing ratings from last week to previous weeks/years for NRL V AFL. I beleive there were only 3 games on Fox last week compared to the usual 5 or 6 from a Sun - Sat week. Also are you assuming that Fox get the pick of NRL games? Channel 9 get the top 3 games every week and Fox get the rest, so this isn’t just an AFL phenonemnon.
Please don’t claim insecurity on others behalf when your assertions are based on inaccuracies.
Cheers
The Link
Steve Kaless said | May 9th 2008 @ 10:35pm | Report comment
People have been talking up the death of rugby league for ten years now and quite frankly I’m yet to see any of it.
More than 34,000 people ended up turning up to the ANZAC test which in the end is a pretty good result. The funny thing is, people like yourself will use that figure to show that the game is on its knees, yet apparently 35,000 at the A-League Grand Final is enough to show us that Football is going absolutely mad.
It might be easy to fill your column with emotive words like plummeting, but you can be summed up with an easier one. Wrong.
What have we learned from 100 years of rugby league? That there are plenty of people who love to sound off about it without knowing a single thing about the game.
Good luck with your A-League franchise in Canberra.
westy said | May 10th 2008 @ 12:16am | Report comment
Steve Kaless…. Ilike my sport including rugby League. At this time last year rugby league average crowds were 18400 and they have risen as of last week to 18800. Rugby league is rather quaint in its counting of juniors only including registered players in 5 or more teamm competitions. They do not count Skills programmes or Kids to Kangaroos sessions. There has been a material increase in junior numbers from U/6 to U/12 in their excellent mini and modified competitions. That is their juniors have risen this year. Their current problem is not the youngsters but young adults where their has been a serious drop off in playing numbers ie. 17 to early 20’s with calls to bring back the 5 metre rule for these competitions.The current capacity of the cricket ground under renovation is 36000. The 34000 in attendance is the largest league test crowd since 1992. This does not even compare to AFL average crowds or major rugby tests but it sure is in the right direction.. I get a little uncomfortable not with people who do not like league but people who play class games. Some people do not like league because of its supporters and their economic /social/background and when they use individual hope interest or spurious speculation instead of facts.League may have many problems but the one redeeming feature of the game is that they just keep on keeping on. It is the most resilient of all. It should of been dead after the super league war. I for one have always appreciated a fighter.
westy said | May 10th 2008 @ 12:27am | Report comment
Paul…..further to league’s quaint habits they like the AFL actually publish their crowds in the metro dailies . Rugby does not. You see some of the crowds overseas do not always make for good reading. Have a look at some NZ super 14 games. More to the point how many games do the Waratahs , Reds and Brumbies play in Australia. Not many. Average has to be multiplied by the number of games in Australia. Rugby does not have many : which makes league’s 18500 average multiplied by a much larger number of games dwarf rugby. : and the AFL dwarfs them all. Rugby loves averages never absolutes.
Paul said | May 10th 2008 @ 12:58am | Report comment
Guys,
all of you trust me, I am on your side. I am not against Rugby League or Union. I was trying to present a balanced approach to this debate. I may be from Victoria and be an Aussie Rules supporter, but I also acknowledge that Rugby has a grand tradition in Australia. Rugby in some ways is not that different from Aussie Rules, especially if you compare it to the round ball game. I had a kick of the footy with some Russian kids (I live in Russia at the moment) today, and I was impressed how easily one of the kids handled the ball, because he plays Rugby. The soccer kids found it a lot harder.
Ok, some of your points.
TV vs the Gate.
I said that “I am not sure that TV number are the best way to determine a sport’s popularity”. This does not mean that they count for nothing, it does not mean that they are even unimportant. I am not even using the pure dollar factor to compare TV vs the Gate. This is more of a hunch, but I think it takes more for a person to get up off their seat at home, get the family together, pack a lunch, jump on the train, battle the crowds and sit through the cold and sometimes rain for a couple hours, and fork out 50-60 bucks (been away for a while, sorry if I forget how much the footy costs these days), than it does to plonk one self down on the couch and make the odd trip to the fridge or toilet. It takes a greater level of enthusiasm to actually go to the game than it does to watch one on tv. Most people will watch something on tv anyway, so choosing the game over some rubbish on tv is not a hard choice.
So I never said that the gate is the sole reason, I just happen to think it is more important than tv figures, which are also important.
Perhaps people in Melbourne are just more sports crazy. The total average attendances for AFL in a weekend this year are 322 903. For NRL, they are 145 525. TV counts for something, but surely the gate counts for something too. I just think it is bit rich to argue that the TV figures are somehow more important than the gate figures. That sounds like a bit of an excuse to me.
I have no desire to see Rugby die out. In fact I don’t think it ever will. It is obvious that League is far more popular than Union, even though I personally happen to enjoy Union more. I certainly hope Rugby will always keep a lead on the A-League. But I also think there is more room for AFL in QLD and NSW. AFL is another one of Australia’s traditions.
Good luck and enjoy your footy.
Treizistes said | May 10th 2008 @ 1:09pm | Report comment
Dave Gilbank
That was beautiful mate.
Sledgeandhammer said | May 10th 2008 @ 2:24pm | Report comment
I think the really interesting trend in rugby league is its apparent growth in Queensland, and relative decline (not death) in NSW. I have noticed that less people in Sydney seem to discuss league around the water cooler so to speak as was the case 10 years ago. In fact in the 1980s, and I was a teenager back then, league really did seem like the greatest game of all. We all believed in it 100% and the level of excitement each weekend was extraodinary. That’s not fact, just perception. For me the move to increasingly defensive tactics started by warren ryan and culminating in the 86 eels grand final were a real turn off, and took a lot of gloss of the game.
Midfielder said | May 10th 2008 @ 3:48pm | Report comment
Sledgeandhammer
Thats a good call by you …………. I would also add the 10 meter rule has had a big effect with the win at all costs by most coaches the extra space provided with the increase in seperation has resulted in a barg up the middle for ground position for the kicker to get a better ground position. Essentially a waiting game for the other team to make a mistake in there part of the ground. IMO five meter rule and 4 tackles is far better way to open up attacking play and bring ball players back into the game.
Your comment about RL centre of influence moving to Brisbane is both true and intersting ……… I am not sure why …. but the centre of influence is moving.
cosmos forever said | May 10th 2008 @ 6:09pm | Report comment
My parents live on the Gold Coast, and I’d attribute the rise of League up north to the massive population transfer from NSW working class areas. Lots of tradies moving up to build houses means they will take their game with them.
That’s also why AFL is strong - same deal with the Victorians who have moved up I reckon.
Eamonn, like others, I just think you are simply wrong. I believe all of the codes will continue and some will grow as others shrink in particular markets. For example, if Adelaide built a purpose built football field they would possibly get much better crowds than at Hindmarsh - but I can’t see how that would affect the Port and Crows.
Canberra is a classic example. Both of the team in national leagues have similar core attendance. Raiders have come off a pretty bad few years to be building again and when either they or the Brumbies get on a role with consecutive finals appearances I reckon that team will jump up to the 20,000 odd. Now, if The Cosmos rose out of the fire they might get 10000 in the first few years, and again I can’t see that that would affect the other two.
cosmos forever said | May 10th 2008 @ 6:14pm | Report comment
Sorry - just had to turn the roast.
I was going to say codes don’t have to die in this crazy footy war! One day we are all just going to have to face facts that we live in one of the most unique sporting markets in the world. We have a number of successful and interesting football codes - one indigenous, three introduced but none truly the national game.
We are lucky - I’m glad I can flip from Asian Champions League to NRL to AFL to Union and enjoy them all.
Dave Gilabnk said | May 10th 2008 @ 6:28pm | Report comment
Cosmos forever
Good call Cosmos, re the Gold Coast - add to that the fact that Miami-Surfers Paradise-Burleigh-to-the Northern NSWRivers has had a strong Rugby league infrastructure for nearly 70 years…that’s why the League has always tried to nail down a strong franchise in this traditionally strong area that has obviously lots of growth potential…The Uk Superleague has done the same now with the Catalan Dragons - they are now, unbelievably third (!) on the table - but the team is based in a traditional heartland of the game (that has managed to survive the purge of the Nazi-backed Vichy regime during WW2)…I guess the League has learned the lessons of the past (Reds, Rams, Paris) and clevely focussed on exploiting strengths and working slowly on those areas with some potential (there’s a strong possibility there will be Superleague franchise in Cardiff next year). Each code will share cities…who’s gonna take Darwin? Interestingly, can Rugby Union join the fray and afford to keep throwing millions at players ala the Force - in new growth areas with such a small local fan-base…who will collect the Union bill? When will they collect the Union bill? Will they steal League’s rules? Be here at the same Bat-Time on the same Bat-Channel….
Redb said | May 11th 2008 @ 2:54pm | Report comment
The Link,
re insecurity - i did’n't introduce ratings numbers in the first place.
Dave Gilabank,
bigots are alive and well in the bitter hearts of rugby league fans in NSW in particular.
Redb
Eamonn Flanagan said | May 11th 2008 @ 4:38pm | Report comment
Steve Kaless, I’m hardly talking up the death of Rugby League. Merely suggesting that perhaps League has reached it’s peak. In the crowded Aussie and Sydney sports markets analysing, suggesting trends is going to be of increasing interest to many. You should know!
And League should present what it has in the most favourable light. 9,000 people in 82,000 capacity ANZ ain’t a great look no matter how big a League fan you are.
And what League has, it’s Origins, it’s suburban rivalry’s; to me they are it’s strengths. Where it can expand? I’m not sure. Despite 34,000 for the International, a good crowd, you hardly expect to see more Internationals, more teams and more fans in the future.
And the evidence I gather re; TV, Crowd figures and junior player numbers don’t come from me, they come League journ’s across Sydney.
Anyway there’ll be a fair few turns and twists in the four football codes battle for growth and survival in the coming years. Plenty to write about.
Don’t worry Steve, you’ll never be out of work.
chas said | May 11th 2008 @ 5:30pm | Report comment
Eamonn:
You’re still writing rubbish.
The Link said | May 11th 2008 @ 6:40pm | Report comment
RedB, um I think you admitted you were wrong there?!! ‘He started it first’ doesn’t really add to the debate here, play the ball not the man. For what its worth I don’t see much different here from League fans than the defences that you put up for AFL.
Eamonn, nice try but you’re still struggling to back up what you’re saying. By continuing to extrapolate one crowd for one game as evidence of League’s decline, then i’d suggest its only your argument that is showing signs of cracking.
Paul said | May 11th 2008 @ 8:11pm | Report comment
Dave Gilabank,
Who’s going to take Darwin? I’m guessing that you mean, which of the leagues is going to establish a team there first? If you mean anything else then obviously Aussie Rules is the entrenched code in the NT.
Tasmania has been hosting AFL games at an average of 17 000 people per game. This has been with only 3 or 4 games a year though. Whether that level can be sustained for 11 games is open for debate. If Tasmania had their own team, there would be more passion involved, so over a season they could possibly average 20 000. I am not sure if the AFL would be happy with an average of 20 000. They seem to be happier with games of 30 000 or more.
The Tasmanian government are seriously getting a Tasmanian bid to the AFL, and even then they may get knocked back.
Tasmania has an overall population of 500 000 and distances are less than in the NT. The NT has a total population of 215 000, but great distances. Darwin’s population is 114 000, which is slightly larger than Launceston or Hobart. They could possibly host a team, but probably would only do so if Tasmania first had a chance and then succeeded.
I highly doubt that a Rugby League team could work in Darwin. Melbourne Storm are struggling to work out as it is.
Paul said | May 11th 2008 @ 8:19pm | Report comment
P.S
It seems I had my figures a bit wrong.
Hobart: 205 566
Darwin: 114 368
Launceston: 71 395
Obviously there are a lot of regional spectators at games in Launceston. It is puzzling why games would not be held in Hobart, if it is three times bigger. However, this underlines even more that games are unlikely to succeed in the near future in Darwin.
Redb said | May 11th 2008 @ 9:01pm | Report comment
The link,
Really? The article by was a rugby fan and Wally decides its an attack by AFL and trots out some selected TV ratings.
Explain to me the defences, re pay TV figures? I’ll happily concede now that rugby league is bigger in NSW and QLD than AFL.
Are you not playing the man, what about some comments on pay tv or why crowds are low in RL? Give us something?
Redb
westy said | May 11th 2008 @ 11:16pm | Report comment
Do not worry Redb……your Ok ……Res Ipsa Loquitor …the thing speaks for itself. Saw the Kangaroos v Kiwis Test on Friday night after reading all about doomsday.predictions. Crowd of 34500 out of current capacity of 35 800 due to construction.Not Melbourne like but for league in Sydney not half bad. Then witnessed a superb coverage by 9 past highlights of well known players , tests . and intelligent commentary. Johns is infectious but keeps on the right side and Sterling just brilliant . Even Gould kept his volume down . Rugby, AFL , football or league any code that produces a try like that of Inglis or the AFL like marking of Folau or the deadly kicking of Thurston or sheer guts of Mannering and Williams in the second half I will watch again and will be watched by others again. …..Redb even reminded me of when big Sironen played………saw the Vics and Dream team on the tele… 69000 good atmosphere…great skills and committment…to many bunnings and other ads…..Channel 10 still do not know how to do it yet but great spectacle. If either of these codes is at the cross roads and they may well be can I have some more. I am suspicious now and perhaps a little naieve that say unlike Spiro or Redb with their clear preferences they still appreciate the good things/skills in the other codes. I am often taken a back by the denial of this by some. This denial may be tribal ignorance but in league’s case it sometimes verges on a bigotry which has more to do with the socio economic background of league base support than the game itself. In Melbourne this class bias is often aimed at a couple of teams rather than a whole code of AFL.. For all league,s so called troubles , its macho mundaneness at times it can still produce pieces of brilliance that any true sporting follower will appreciate and will keep people at least watching.for some time yet.
Redb said | May 11th 2008 @ 11:28pm | Report comment
Westy,
Gotta admit the pre game dire crowd predictions of the Daily Terror in particular were made to look pretty stupid after 34K turned up. I didn’t watch the league game, but saw the highlights of Inglis’s throw in mid air backwards for that try - good stuff. Excellent camera work from the side in slow mo.
I went to the Vic v Dream team game, but this is not the thread to discuss it. I will say I agree re Ch 10 coverage (taped it) was crappy, they still have no idea how to capture the speed and aerial nature of the game.
Redb
Dave Gilbank said | May 12th 2008 @ 3:32am | Report comment
Paul.
woooooooooooohoooooooooooooooo…”Melbourne storm not working” - as they say in the East end of London “You’re ‘avin a laff, aint ya?”
Redb said | May 12th 2008 @ 8:41am | Report comment
Dave Gilbank,
Depends on what you define as working.
Crowds - no, for Melbourne they are pitiful. They play at olypmic park becase moving games to Telstra Dome failed due to lack of support - they lost too much money.
TV ratings - most games are not shown until very late, no other regular NRL games are shown at all.
Junior development - marginally better than the early days.
media buzz - fluff pieces by News Ltd (the owner of the club) in the Herald Sun, does however get some pieces in the the AGE. General awareness is there, people know about Melb Storm and rugby league. So working from a perspective of ten years ago in regards to awareness of rugby league. It would be far to say the last ten years has seen greater awareness of all football codes outside of traditional homes.
Impact on AFL - neglibile. Attracted a few stray Cartlon supporters last year BCJ. (before Chris Judd). Carlton are on the rise, Melb Storm but a memory. Don’t worry this says more about Carlton supporters than Melb Storm.
If they fell off the earth tommorrow most would not care, support appears to be expat Kiwis and NSW property refugees.
Rugby league in Melbourne relies on the novelty factor, only the premier games get free to air TV exposure, SOO for example. SOO had a profile before Melb Storm the two are not strongly connected, or else TV ratings for SOO in Melbourne would have translated to crowd support.
Redb
The Link said | May 12th 2008 @ 9:08am | Report comment
RedB, i’ll explain again, the week quoted by W Warambeal was effectively a ’split’ round in the NRL with 4-5 teams having the bye and half the games available, so concluding;
“but if you look back 12 months ago and prior, at least the top 8 games would have all been NRL”
is impossible.
Redb said | May 12th 2008 @ 9:41am | Report comment
The Link,
TV ratings from the rugby league website convict creations:
“From week ending June 11 2006
1 NRL Panthers V Dragons (FOX Sports 1) 158,000
2 NRL Cowboys V Sharks (FOX Sports 1) 145,000
3 NRL Rabbitohs V Brisbane (FOX Sports 1) 136,000
4 NRL Panthers V Sea Eagles (FOX Sports 1) 135,000
5 AFL RND 11 Richmond V Kangaroos (FOX Footy) 130,000
6 NRL Warriors V Broncos (FOX Sports 1) 117,000
Of the top 100 programs of all types on pay TV in 2006, 73 were Rugby League. The NRL had eight in the top 10.”
cosmos forever said | May 12th 2008 @ 9:43am | Report comment
Because AFL fans actually go to the games maybe…
Redb said | May 12th 2008 @ 9:46am | Report comment
The Link, Cosmos
The point is Pay TV has always been rugby league’s domain. It’s nothing new that RL rates well compared to other sports when Sydney has be far the highest pay tv penetration and AFL markets like Perth and Adelaide have the lowest.
I’m sure this last weekend will be dominated by rugby league on pay tv
Redb
The Link said | May 12th 2008 @ 10:00am | Report comment
RedB, exactly. I’ll put it a bit clearer:
Week W Warambeal quoted in 2008: “Split” Round NRL
Week RedB quoted in 2006: Full round NRL
Therefore drawing any conclusions is impossible. Based on W Warambeal’s week, AFL may appear to have made up ground in 2008, but you can’t use a “split” round to compare to a full round, because there’s less NRL games to compare to AFL games!!
Agree the AFL reference was out of topic, but there’s better defences for AFL than Pay TV figures.
Crosscoder said | May 12th 2008 @ 10:23am | Report comment
Eamonn
Apart from you being shot down with the 34,500 plus crowd for the test and the TV ratings in the 3 states(including an uninterested Vic) ,your comments are as well worn as an army boot.
I have heard and read that rugby league is dying since 1990,during the Super league war,after the 2000 world cup.
Let me just paint a few facts yes the FTA TV ratings are down on friday evenings,and the crowds at times have been affected by ANZ.St george will be going back to Kogarah next year for starters.
Have you bothered to check the crowds rl in the 70s 80s and 90s,have you bothered to check the income the NRL gets from Sponsorship/TV contracts/playing numbers/merchandise sales.Have you checked the involvement of private involvement in some NRL clubs.Do you know the monies the code gets from the SOO series.Do you realise that some clubs are looking at other alternative sources of revune than pokies.
The simple fact is there are in the Sydney area according to the NSWRL academy an additional 77 junior registered weekend teams.Some country areas are battling (drought and work affected) some groups on the coast are experiencing a growth rate of 5% pa.
In Vic the Maribyrnong paper reported the Altona Roosters have a huge influx of juniors ,very few pacific islander boys and a few previously AFL players.The Storm’s averages are well up on last years,they are amongst the highest sponsored teams in the NRL and compete sponsorship wise with many Melbourne AFL clubs.All this based in a 3rd world stadium.The Storm struggling LOL.The game officially recognised by the Vic govt for high schools.
Schools in the South of Adelaidenow have a five week comp for rl ,and a dedciated ares with goalposts.
WA has experienced 33% growth in juniorsthis year with no NRL team,only a JB cup side.The JB side avarages around 2,000 (a 4th tiercomp),that Sydney club rugby which has been around over 100 years would kill for.
In the nthn Territoy the likes of Mat Bowen from the Cowboys is as popular as some of the AFL players.Rugby league is on a par in the Territory with AFL.
To argue that people don’twant their children to play rugby league ,would suggest a reduction in numbers
rather than real growth.Many mothers want their kids to play soccer due to lack of heavy contact,some don’t want them to play union because of the fear of collapsed scrums and AFL because of high shots coming from another direction.Just look at the raw data that is registered juniors.Junior rugby league has in fact a very comparable safety record to other codes ,more so than AFL.Not my views but a report I read a few months ago.
Shoulder charges BTW have been banned from junior rugby league.
Just because a code is cashed up,doesn’t mean it will takeover or convert the heretics.Just ask the ARU with their $45m warchest.
This topic will pop up again in 5 years time,such is the monotony.
Crosscoder said | May 12th 2008 @ 10:47am | Report comment
RedB
Melbourne Storm their crowds are indeed pitiful compared to AFL crowds in Melbourne.The NRL would hardly have expected otherwise.The Storm has at least grown its crowd from11,000 to a 13,000 average in an “alien” territory.The Storm with 2 G/F wins and another appearance has at least created a niche interest and market,and that is all the code expected.The 262,000 average Vics who watched the rl test either suggested there were a hell of a lot of NZedders watching in Melbourne,or at least some Melburnians at least threw the switch on.if you hatesomething you dont watch it,simple.
TV ratings :maybe the ch9 execs in Melbourne are seeing the appallingly low FTA ratings for AFL in Sydney,and taking a cautious approach,despite their contract stipulating the NRL games be on before 12.Suggest whoever gets the next Tv contract will have NRL on FTA at decent hours.
Junior development:.More than marginally better than the early days for heavens sake.
.You stated so yourself the early development by the Stormwas non existent.Altona and the Muuray Goulburn and the schools developments,would suggest its more than marginal.
Media no surprise again:.To put things into perspective,the Swans with all the media support,gets terrible TV ratings after 25 years,they have a recognition factor in Sydney,but if they fell over ,life would go on.Maybe it too has a novelty factor if you look at the TV ratings.
Paul said | May 12th 2008 @ 11:11am | Report comment
Just like my solution for AFL v Soccer. Put the Swans and the Storm on the field for a game of compromise rules and see who wins.
Maybe the Storm are “working” but they are sure not popular.
Redb said | May 12th 2008 @ 11:29am | Report comment
The Link,
So the question has to be asked, why use these split round pay tv figures to defend NRL then?
I’m not really fussed about pay tv, it is rugby leagues’ domain dont lose any sleep over it, just made an observation.
Redb
Redb said | May 12th 2008 @ 11:55am | Report comment
Crosscoder,
I can just say that I have not predicted rugby league’s demise, I actually said for the record I think union is the likely candidate of being the first code to crack within the OZ domestic market (if there is to be a code that cracks and not sure about that either).
However, you cannot compare the Swans with Storm.
The Swans are more entrenched in Sydney with ave 30,000 crowds for regular games in what you and most others acknowledge is not a sports going public compared to Melbourne. So the Swans effort in getting 30,000 should be considered above the average for Sydney. Compare to the Storm with 13,000 (kiwis and nsw property refugees) in a sports mad city and the weighting goes the other way. On crowds numbers the Swans are streets ahead.
It is churlish of you to suggest that Ch 9 dont televise NRL in melbourne due to the Swans percevied failure in Sydney. The point is that Swans fans do get to see the games on TV. The ratings are better for rugby league in Sydney but that is hardly suprising it is? At least the games are shown. Rugby league never , I repeat never goes head to ehad with the AFL in Melbourne, AFL constantly is head to head with RL in Sydney. The Test on Friday in prime time was played with no AFL games on, not one for the whole weekend. The league test rated next to Big Brother and an ABBA special ( the ABBA special won the timeslot). I do put ARLgames in a different category to Storm remember, I said the two are not strongly connected and if they are it is having bugger all impact on Storm crowds.
It is very doutbful that AFL is going to take over Sydney, even with a second team after 10 years. Rugby league is barely on the radar in Melbourne in the first place, so its just not even a thoughtful proposition. That’s the difference.
I would also like to introduce the Fan Insecurity Commentary Index as anecdotally measured by blog comments in the various newspaper websites revealing fans of one code bagging the other. In Sydney newspapers there are often quite derisive comments made about AFL where no mention of rguby league was made, in Melbourne papers there is barely a peep.
The FICI declares Sydney RL fans the most insecure in the country, hence the juvenile name calling, bitterness, trotting out of TV ratings in NSW and QLD,etc,et,c. It does not happen in Melbourne with rugby league to anywhere near the same extent, it is marginal indifference.
Have a look around on the Roar and note the FICI peaking with RL fans on AFL related topics.
Redb
Redb
The Link said | May 12th 2008 @ 12:54pm | Report comment
RedB, I didn’t make the post, i’m not sure!! My only concern is that they were analysed within the context of what NRL round it was.
Claiming the high ground in insecurity is a bit rich don’t you think? I’ve only ever seen it dished out in spades across all tabs on this (and other) forums from fans of all persuasions.
Redb said | May 12th 2008 @ 1:11pm | Report comment
The link,
“Claiming the high ground in insecurity is a bit rich don’t you think?”
No. It’s on the money and if you look at there is a reason. RL fans are threatened by the AFL, its expansion plans and its money. There is no discernable threat from rugby league in AFL states.
The FICI did peak with AFL fans when soccer started to gain some credibility, but that has dropped off as the realisation that AFL can hold its own, particularly with its excellent junior development programs and the product itself.
At the end of the day, as Westy has commented, all codes offer something at their best.
Redb
sheek said | May 12th 2008 @ 1:44pm | Report comment
Cosmos forever,
“Have balls, will travel”. (Good title for a sports book!).
I’ve got my 4 balls - AFL, union, league & soccer. What time you want me ’round for the roast?
Paul said | May 12th 2008 @ 2:12pm | Report comment
Sheek,
Better yet, use one ball for three of those codes, and leave the other one at home.
Crosscoder said | May 12th 2008 @ 2:37pm | Report comment
RedB
One certainly can compare the Swans and Storm.The Swans in existence for 25 years,where AFL has been played in local comps for decades.The Swans with crowds on many occasions under the 10,000 mark in the first 10 years.Then along came super league and the biggest leg up for opposition codes.The Swans playing in a stadium with decent facilities and an oval ground,compared to the Storm in ordinary facilities in a 3rd world stadium,and the T Dome is not exactly great for viewing rl and union.
Yes the Swans are more entrenched than the Storm, (a no brainer )and so they should with the a 15 year head start and having a grassroots comp in existence in NSW.Thank super league for assistence.
The simple fact the Swans with all the media assistance,with a long time on FTA Tv ,whilst getting crowds at the game is doing very poorly on TV ratings.The recent Dream team ratings for Brisbane and Sydney combined for the AFL was again .
very poor.Read into it FWIW the Tv ratings in melbourne for the RL test exceeded the TV ratings in Sydney and Brisbane for the hall of Fame match of the AFL.Let us hope that a new TV contract will give rugby league exposure in all states on FTA.
CH9 Melbourne certainly aren’t sticking to their contractual obligations.
Please don’t go on with the tiresome NSW expats and property refugees argument,the latter actually go to coastal areas of NSW and Qld and the resource rich areas of WA and Qld.You could throw up the argument that all Swans supporters are Vic /SA expats.Expats naturally will gravitate to the sport of their origin
Your last comment about insecurity is laughable,especially when I see no shortage of AFL people in newletters,bloggs serving it up to rugby league and soccer.
If anything rugby league people tend to be at times more criticial of their game,its administration,than quite a few codes.
Insecurity is in the eyes of the beholder.No, we know Melburnians would never stoop at bagging rugby league,union,and soccer.The pink curly tailed critters are about ready for take off.
Michael C said | May 12th 2008 @ 2:49pm | Report comment
The question of reaching one’s peak I guess needs to be measured against what might be beyond that peak -
what capacity for growth in the RL circles is there?
I’ve heard David Gallop suggest that they too could have expansion plans. But - - there hasn’t been anything concrete mentioned, there doesn’t seem to be anything happening, other than a request from PNG!!
I know that there’s been an increase in ‘grass roots’ RL in certain non-traditional states - - but, that’s for example in Victoria, from a base of ZERO to above 4 clubs with any decent structure about them. It’s a start - - but, a long, long way to go.
Expansion needs to be funded -
but, for now (and to the chagrin of Roy Masters) - RL sits on pretty good pay tv returns for Foxtel - but, alas, in the most ‘mature’ - and, therefore this has been a big negative on raising extra broadcast revenue - - i.e. little opportunity for growth
and for now - club revenue is struggling, overly reliant on pokies - - but, a reason for optimism MUST be the ROOM TO MOVE on the issue of club memberships and attendances (revenue through the gate).
But - until these revenue streams can be increased - and at the same time, avoid Willie Mason bringing another delegation of players to try to pump up their salaries - - then, there’s not much room to move for RL - - can it really afford to expand to Perth (where it would fight for 4th and 5th place with Glory behing the Eagles, Dockers & Force), or to Adelaide (where it would step in a number 4 behind Crows, Power, Ade Utd)
It might be that RL can find and fund some room to move. Or - it may be strategic to baton down the hatches and ride out the storm and attempt to be in a resiliant position to perhaps re-surface and hit a staggering opponent after the main fight…..?
So far - it looks like the RL fraternity are pumping up this ‘war of the codes’ thing - - and, there appears a passioned call to arms for the ‘traditional’ RL fans, from the traditional heartland - to mobilise. For RL - - this SHOULD be a good thing - - sometimes it takes a bit of competition to sting people into action.
Redb said | May 12th 2008 @ 3:12pm | Report comment
Let’s agree to disagree.
your statement below is in fact incorrect, all codes fans bag the administration with the exception of FFA, mainly due to it’s extended honeymoon period.
“If anything rugby league people tend to be at times more criticial of their game,its administration,than quite a few codes.”
Michael C said | May 12th 2008 @ 3:18pm | Report comment
Crosscoder -
don’t read too much into it - - the AFL game was purely an exhibition match -
on a weekend with zero other AFL club matches - - so, the AFL states, there was a dirth of sporting content to watch - -
especially on that prime time slot of Friday night,
whereas, the RL test - is a proper ‘international’ - and, there were other matches on over the weekend to sate the appetitie in the RL states……
….so, again, NOT apples with apples - - - be careful what ABSOLUTE conclusions you aim to draw from that.
kindest regards (i.e. I’m not wanting to engage in a dog fight - simply adding a contextual aspect to the ‘facts’ that you presented)
btw - re the bagging the administration - - AFL people bag them all the time - and, especially ever since South Melbourne were up rooted and moved - the administration of the VFL/AFL has been viewed with deep suspicion (to say the least).
Steve Kaless said | May 12th 2008 @ 6:42pm | Report comment
Don’t worry Eamonn, I’m not at all concerned about my job security. After all, I’ve got all this A-League to cover in the balmy summer months!
Cheers
Crosscoder said | May 13th 2008 @ 8:01am | Report comment
RedB
You missed my salient point on criticism ,ruby league fans are more critical of their GAME (AND) administration.Repeat not just the administration.The reason it changed from unlimited tackle ,to 4 tackle,to 6 tackle.There are a few aspects and rules in the game,i would like to see changed to make it better as a spectacle.My view is not isolated,despite the fact we still love the game.
Redb said | May 13th 2008 @ 8:22am | Report comment
Crosscoder,
With respect i think you’ll find union and AFL fans are just as critical.
Redb
Crosscoder said | May 13th 2008 @ 8:28am | Report comment
MichaelC
I am drawing no conclusions,I see what I see and report what I see and what is said.The Hall of Fame event received massive publicity certainly in Sydney in the electonic and print media.The AFL inclined journalist in the SMH Richard Hinds concluded that with all the massive publicity for the event with a his words”compliant” media in Melbourne, and with nothing in opposition should have been a sellout.It was described as the biggest event outside the Grand final.I didn’t write those words.
I am sure there are other Tv progams in Melbourne on a Friday evening,as we are constantly reminded there is no interest in rugby league in Victoria.
The problem with having a rugby league test and then expecting fans to also attend club matches in Sydney is really testing the pockets of people with mortgages and fuel prices as they are.
Re bagging check my full wording administration and the game referring to rugby league.
You appear to have reached conclusions yourself as to rugby league finances.Yes some clubs are finding it tough,memberships are important,ever heard of increasing sponsorship,private ownership,merchandise sales,Tv and radio contracts which were in many eyes not just Masters undersold.So on that basis there is room to move.
There is room to move in Perth,as I have monotonously stated the 4th tier rugby league club comp(jim Beam cup) the WA Reds attract around 2,000 average to their local games.the junior participation rates ar up 33% and there has been a massive increase in primary and high school participation in tackle and tag rugby league.There will be a move to Perth,its not just on the radar,but in the gunsights.Even the Northern Territory is looking at a team in the JB Cup.
If anyone is pumping up the war thing, try a bombastic leader of the AFL with his statements in the Sydney and Brisbane media,as if it were pre invasion rhetoric.
The worst case last resort scenario if we are talking financial conclusions ,is rugby league clubs relocating to other areas such as Adelaide,Central Coast
Crosscoder said | May 13th 2008 @ 8:35am | Report comment
RedB
Understood.
Neither of those codes had to contend with a media company takeover of their codes,involving some of the most the most heated vitriol thrown in either direction,at the game and the people administrators and players involved.Even 13 years later there is some hidden animosity toward some participants .
Try following a team which had switched to super league.Try supporting an ARL loyal team ,that had seen its comp decimated.
I have watched and followed this game for decades both here and in England and NZ,and people who I have met (non rl types) are amazed at the internal criticism levlled at the agme and administrators.Of course other codes bag their administrators its human nature .