Rugby League: The first code to crack?

Longy said  | May 9th 2008 @ 7:54am | Report comment

On the Gold Coast the media has been pushing the Titans tune to absolute death and even when they play Broncos they can’t fill the stadium. AFL will be a huge winner and maybe if the GC Breakers are able to move into Super rugby??? Interesting days ahead…………..

El Capitan said  | May 9th 2008 @ 9:46am | Report comment

It is sad to see such large stadiums not really full of supporters. But you get that in almost every code (bar AFL). I go to the Reds games and 20,000 at Lang Park is not the same 20,000 at Ballymore. I agree that most matches should be played at smaller venues, and the cracker blockbusters played in the larger stadiums.

Its a terrible time when Sydney can’t fill the SCG for 100yrs of League. Brisbane has already sold 25,000 for the RLWC final and you don’t even know whos playing. Perhaps the culture shift has moved from Sydney to Queensland?

W Warambeal said  | May 9th 2008 @ 12:47pm | Report comment

Eamonn you’re a little pedantic about the Titans & Broncos crowd at the GC. The game was a sell-out - a couple of hundred didn’t turn up. So what!

Anyway up till last weekend NRL crowds were up by about 500 per game on the previous season. Only three games this season so far have had sub 10,000 crowds. It is during the SOOs tht the NRL crowds really plummet. So in that regard the SOO games are counterproductive.

Union & soccer can’t get their competitions onto FTA.

AFL which self-publicises itself on being a national competition has two largely transported teams in states with over 55% of Australia’s population. Home games involving the Swans & Lions come 4th or 5th in their home markets on FTA TV.A few years ago the Brisbane Lions could on 180,000 viewers in the South-East Queensland region;last week they got under 80,000. (Incidentally the Titans & Broncos game rated 301,000.)

here’s a copy of a blog about the AFL’s TV audience in Brisbane & Sydney:

1. The first 7 Rounds of Swans viewers in Sydney, and Lions viewers in Brisbane, we get a cumulative:

Sydney 589,200
Brisbane 571,000

So 1.1m viewers for 14 games.

2. The last regular Friday night NRL (before Anzac Day, was 18th April):

NINE’S LIVE FRIDAY NIGHT FOOTBALL Nine 673,000 372,000 301,000
NINE’S FRIDAY NIGHT FOOTBALL Nine 401,000 262,000 139,000

That’s close to 1.1m viewers on the night, over 2 games, of which the second was delayed.

(You can throw in the obviously puny numbers for those other 2 AFL games that have no data, they clearly didn’t make the Top 100 programs for the week, and as such they won’t make much of a difference).

So, after a third of the season, one Friday night of NRL in Sydney and Brisbane is the same as one third of the Swans and Lions total viewership for the year.

AFL in Sydney and Brisbane :loL:

http://72.52.152.33/~leagueun/forums/showthread.php?t=104804&page=253

Last week’s Pay TV numbers:

Top 50 Subscription TV Program Broadcasts
National STV Program List: All People - w/c 27 Apr 2008 Weekly
# Highest STV Program Broadcast Channel Day Time
B/cast Only B/cast & Plus2 Total STV Reach (000s)
1 LIVE: NRL KNIGHTS V TITANS Fox Sports 2 Sat 17:30 288 288 1,161 637
2 LIVE & ACTIVE: AFL HAWTHORN V RICHMOND Fox Sports 1 Sun 16:32 284 284 1,188 708
3 LIVE: NRL PANTHERS V EELS Fox Sports 2 Sat 19:30 256 256 1,307 609
4 LIVE: NRL TITANS V WARRIORS Fox Sports 2 Sun 14:00 240 240 1,227 524
5 FAMILY GUY FOX8 Wed 18:46 161 217 896 1,056
6 LIVE: AFL BRISBANE LIONS V MELBOURNE Fox Sports 1 Sun 13:00 158 158 1,179 552
7 FUTURAMA FOX8 Wed 18:21 153 213 813 1,019
8 LIVE: AFL GEELONG V BRISBANE LIONS Fox Sports 1 Sat 14:00 150 150 1,029 493
9 THE SIMPSONS FOX8 Wed 19:11 139 163 962 1,767
10 AUSTRALIA’S NEXT TOP MODEL FOX8 Tue 19:30 128 255 1,051 696
11 SELLING HOUSES AUSTRALIA Lifestyle Wed 19:30 128 169 1,085 550
12 LIVE: NRL SATURDAY PRE GAME SHOW Fox Sports 2 Sat 16:55 124 124 1,017 210
13 LIVE: RUGBY UNION: S14 FORCE V CHIEFS Fox Sports 3 Sat 19:30 114 114 1,304 328
14 LIVE: AFL: ON THE COUCH Fox Sports 1 Mon 20:30 113 113 945 242
15 AMERICAN DAD! FOX8 Sun 21:30 111 131 1,205 336
16 LIVE: AFL PRE GAME SHOW Fox Sports 1 Sun 16:04 109 109 1,106 237
17 PROPERTY LADDER Lifestyle Wed 20:33 108 144 1,011 468
18 LIVE: RUGBY UNION: S14 REDS V BLUES Fox Sports 3 Fri 19:30 104 104 994 297
19 NCIS TV1 Sun 19:30 103 123 1,352 822
20 LIVE: AFL ADELAIDE V NORTH MELBOURNE Fox Sports 1 Sat 19:30 102 102 1,246 535
21 THE INSPECTOR LYNLEY MYSTERIES UKTV Sun 20:30 99 120 1,254 258
22 GRAND DESIGNS Lifestyle Thu 20:32 98 124 972 471
23 LIVE: FOOTBALL: EPL MAN UTD V WEST HAM Fox Sports 3 Sat 21:35 97 97 943 359
24 KEEPING UP APPEARANCES UKTV Sun 19:30 96 103 1,329 168
25 LAW & ORDER W Wed 21:23 87 103 990 636
26 LAW & ORDER: SVU TV1 Sat 21:30 86 111 1,157 1,091
27 EASTENDERS UKTV Wed 19:01 85 92 939 323
28 WWE SMACKDOWN! FOX8 Fri 15:30 85 124 833 480
29 AMERICAN IDOL FOX8 Thu 19:38 84 111 1,087 669
30 MY FAMILY UKTV Sun 20:00 84 96 1,391 223
31 LIVE: RUGBY LEAGUE: TOYOTA CUP Fox Sports 2 Sat 15:15 80 80 1,081 381
32 HANNAH MONTANA Disney Channel Wed 17:30 79 79 801 534
33 LIVE: RUGBY UNION: S14 CRUS V SHARKS Fox Sports 3 Fri 17:30 78 78 884 170
34 WWE RAW FOX8 Wed 15:31 78 113 813 540
35 BARGAIN HUNT Lifestyle Thu 21:36 76 88 839 606
36 DALZIEL AND PASCOE UKTV Wed 20:30 75 86 1,016 172
37 LAW & ORDER: CRIMINAL INTENT TV1 Wed 13:01 74 86 514 750
38 LIVE: RUGBY UNION: S14 BULLS V WARATAHS Fox Sports 1 Sat 23:00 74 74 689 211
39 H2O: JUST ADD WATER Disney Channel Sun 17:30 71 71 1,190 298
40 CORY IN THE HOUSE Disney Channel Sun 12:00 69 69 820 340
41 DOC MARTIN UKTV Wed 19:33 69 94 1,094 275
42 THE SUITE LIFE OF ZACK & CODY Disney Channel Thu 07:30 69 69 358 534
43 AS THE BELL RINGS Disney Channel Mon 17:26 68 68 866 208
44 LIVE: RUGBY UNION: S14 H’CANES V LIONS Fox Sports 3 Sat 17:30 67 67 1,161 228
45 PROJECT RUNWAY Arena Mon 20:31 66 103 949 318
46 FRASIER TV1 Sun 19:00 66 78 1,255 458
47 DRY SPELL GARDENING Lifestyle Thu 19:30 66 83 1,075 338
48 TV1′S CASH TRIVIA CHALLENGE TV1 Sun 11:50 65 103 842 593
49 M*A*S*H Fox Classics Wed 19:00 65 79 934 539
50 LIVE: NRL SUNDAY PRE GAME SHOW Fox Sports 2 Sun 13:30 64 64 1,130 132

Redb said  | May 9th 2008 @ 2:54pm | Report comment

W Warambeal,

LOL how predictable. Yes lets distract any real discussion with selected TV ratings for NRL over AFL in tradtional NRL states. Your insecurity is obvious.

Now don’t get too scared, but those pay tv numbers show AFL at no. 2 , 6 and 8 in the top ten. Not only are Pay TV subscriptions much lower in traditional AFL states and this should be coupled with the fact not all of the best AFL games are shown live, but if you look back 12 months ago and prior, at least the top 8 games would have all been NRL.

The AFL at least get its supporters to attend its games in NSW and QLD.

For th record I don’t beleive rugby league will be the first to crack, unfortunately it appears more likely to be rugby union in terms of the Australian domestic market.

Redb

Paul said  | May 9th 2008 @ 4:42pm | Report comment

I’m not quite sure if TV numbers are the best way to determine a sports popularity. TV figures can be engineered by TV promotion. Bums on seats are the best test of a sport’s popularity. On this level Rugby League has been struggling for a long time. But, let history do the talking. This is by no means over.

Rugby League is certainly bigger than AFL in QLD and NSW, but there can be ne denying that the AFL has made up ground. As to figures dropping off for Sydney and Brisbane due to poorer performances of late, they are still very healthy for teams that are not going strong.

Average attendances for 2008 so far:

Brisbane Broncos (League): 40 931
Sydney Swans (AFL): 32 671
NSW Waratahs (Union): 29 641
Brisbane Lions (AFL): 28 956
Canterbury Bulldogs (League): 24 279
Gold Coast Titans (League): 22 645
South Sydney Rabbitohs (League): 21 404
North Queensland Cowboys (League): 20 147
Paramatta Eels (League): 20 121

_______________________________

Queensland Reds (Union): 18 507
Newcastle Knights (League): 17 675
Wests Tigers (League): 16 410
Sydney Roosters (League): 15 431
ACT Brumbies (Union): 14 271
Canberra Raiders (League): 14 063
Cronulla Sharks (League): 13 852
Manly Sea Eagles (League): 12 800
St George Illawara Dragons (League): 12 493
Penrith Panthers (League): 9 171

AFL may only have two teams in the north, but they are matching it quite well, coming in at 2nd and 4th from all codes. The Swans are rating better at the ground than any other team in NSW. There are still around 5 teams with healthy NRL attendances. Penrith look like they are in real trouble though.

I wouldn’t call this curtains for Rugby League though. Also, it is hard to say how well the second teams for AFL will go in QLD and NSW. That will be the real test for the AFL to see if it has what it takes to expand in the north. It does appear that NSW may not be able to continue to support 10 teams in the NRL. A few mergers might be in order so that 6 or 7 clubs can survive well. The suggestion of moving some games to smaller grounds is not a bad idea though. But it’s a bit rough to be sounding the death knells for Rugby. It will always have a place, but no doubt both Rugby codes are being eroded by AFL and A-League. The future is their choice though.

The Link said  | May 9th 2008 @ 10:32pm | Report comment

Paul, query, how much of a percentage of revenue are TV deals vs gate for NRL and AFL? I’m interested in your assertion that gate is the sole reason for the success of a code.

RedB, last week was a reduced round for NRL (kinda like the old ’split’ rounds), so it is worthless in comparing ratings from last week to previous weeks/years for NRL V AFL. I beleive there were only 3 games on Fox last week compared to the usual 5 or 6 from a Sun - Sat week. Also are you assuming that Fox get the pick of NRL games? Channel 9 get the top 3 games every week and Fox get the rest, so this isn’t just an AFL phenonemnon.

Please don’t claim insecurity on others behalf when your assertions are based on inaccuracies.

Cheers

The Link

westy said  | May 10th 2008 @ 12:16am | Report comment

Steve Kaless…. Ilike my sport including rugby League. At this time last year rugby league average crowds were 18400 and they have risen as of last week to 18800. Rugby league is rather quaint in its counting of juniors only including registered players in 5 or more teamm competitions. They do not count Skills programmes or Kids to Kangaroos sessions. There has been a material increase in junior numbers from U/6 to U/12 in their excellent mini and modified competitions. That is their juniors have risen this year. Their current problem is not the youngsters but young adults where their has been a serious drop off in playing numbers ie. 17 to early 20’s with calls to bring back the 5 metre rule for these competitions.The current capacity of the cricket ground under renovation is 36000. The 34000 in attendance is the largest league test crowd since 1992. This does not even compare to AFL average crowds or major rugby tests but it sure is in the right direction.. I get a little uncomfortable not with people who do not like league but people who play class games. Some people do not like league because of its supporters and their economic /social/background and when they use individual hope interest or spurious speculation instead of facts.League may have many problems but the one redeeming feature of the game is that they just keep on keeping on. It is the most resilient of all. It should of been dead after the super league war. I for one have always appreciated a fighter.

Paul said  | May 10th 2008 @ 12:58am | Report comment

Guys,

all of you trust me, I am on your side. I am not against Rugby League or Union. I was trying to present a balanced approach to this debate. I may be from Victoria and be an Aussie Rules supporter, but I also acknowledge that Rugby has a grand tradition in Australia. Rugby in some ways is not that different from Aussie Rules, especially if you compare it to the round ball game. I had a kick of the footy with some Russian kids (I live in Russia at the moment) today, and I was impressed how easily one of the kids handled the ball, because he plays Rugby. The soccer kids found it a lot harder.

Ok, some of your points.

TV vs the Gate.
I said that “I am not sure that TV number are the best way to determine a sport’s popularity”. This does not mean that they count for nothing, it does not mean that they are even unimportant. I am not even using the pure dollar factor to compare TV vs the Gate. This is more of a hunch, but I think it takes more for a person to get up off their seat at home, get the family together, pack a lunch, jump on the train, battle the crowds and sit through the cold and sometimes rain for a couple hours, and fork out 50-60 bucks (been away for a while, sorry if I forget how much the footy costs these days), than it does to plonk one self down on the couch and make the odd trip to the fridge or toilet. It takes a greater level of enthusiasm to actually go to the game than it does to watch one on tv. Most people will watch something on tv anyway, so choosing the game over some rubbish on tv is not a hard choice.

So I never said that the gate is the sole reason, I just happen to think it is more important than tv figures, which are also important.

Perhaps people in Melbourne are just more sports crazy. The total average attendances for AFL in a weekend this year are 322 903. For NRL, they are 145 525. TV counts for something, but surely the gate counts for something too. I just think it is bit rich to argue that the TV figures are somehow more important than the gate figures. That sounds like a bit of an excuse to me.

I have no desire to see Rugby die out. In fact I don’t think it ever will. It is obvious that League is far more popular than Union, even though I personally happen to enjoy Union more. I certainly hope Rugby will always keep a lead on the A-League. But I also think there is more room for AFL in QLD and NSW. AFL is another one of Australia’s traditions.

Good luck and enjoy your footy.

Sledgeandhammer said  | May 10th 2008 @ 2:24pm | Report comment

I think the really interesting trend in rugby league is its apparent growth in Queensland, and relative decline (not death) in NSW. I have noticed that less people in Sydney seem to discuss league around the water cooler so to speak as was the case 10 years ago. In fact in the 1980s, and I was a teenager back then, league really did seem like the greatest game of all. We all believed in it 100% and the level of excitement each weekend was extraodinary. That’s not fact, just perception. For me the move to increasingly defensive tactics started by warren ryan and culminating in the 86 eels grand final were a real turn off, and took a lot of gloss of the game.

cosmos forever said  | May 10th 2008 @ 6:09pm | Report comment

My parents live on the Gold Coast, and I’d attribute the rise of League up north to the massive population transfer from NSW working class areas. Lots of tradies moving up to build houses means they will take their game with them.

That’s also why AFL is strong - same deal with the Victorians who have moved up I reckon.

Eamonn, like others, I just think you are simply wrong. I believe all of the codes will continue and some will grow as others shrink in particular markets. For example, if Adelaide built a purpose built football field they would possibly get much better crowds than at Hindmarsh - but I can’t see how that would affect the Port and Crows.

Canberra is a classic example. Both of the team in national leagues have similar core attendance. Raiders have come off a pretty bad few years to be building again and when either they or the Brumbies get on a role with consecutive finals appearances I reckon that team will jump up to the 20,000 odd. Now, if The Cosmos rose out of the fire they might get 10000 in the first few years, and again I can’t see that that would affect the other two.

Dave Gilabnk said  | May 10th 2008 @ 6:28pm | Report comment

Cosmos forever

Good call Cosmos, re the Gold Coast - add to that the fact that Miami-Surfers Paradise-Burleigh-to-the Northern NSWRivers has had a strong Rugby league infrastructure for nearly 70 years…that’s why the League has always tried to nail down a strong franchise in this traditionally strong area that has obviously lots of growth potential…The Uk Superleague has done the same now with the Catalan Dragons - they are now, unbelievably third (!) on the table - but the team is based in a traditional heartland of the game (that has managed to survive the purge of the Nazi-backed Vichy regime during WW2)…I guess the League has learned the lessons of the past (Reds, Rams, Paris) and clevely focussed on exploiting strengths and working slowly on those areas with some potential (there’s a strong possibility there will be Superleague franchise in Cardiff next year). Each code will share cities…who’s gonna take Darwin? Interestingly, can Rugby Union join the fray and afford to keep throwing millions at players ala the Force - in new growth areas with such a small local fan-base…who will collect the Union bill? When will they collect the Union bill? Will they steal League’s rules? Be here at the same Bat-Time on the same Bat-Channel….

Eamonn Flanagan said  | May 11th 2008 @ 4:38pm | Report comment

Steve Kaless, I’m hardly talking up the death of Rugby League. Merely suggesting that perhaps League has reached it’s peak. In the crowded Aussie and Sydney sports markets analysing, suggesting trends is going to be of increasing interest to many. You should know!
And League should present what it has in the most favourable light. 9,000 people in 82,000 capacity ANZ ain’t a great look no matter how big a League fan you are.
And what League has, it’s Origins, it’s suburban rivalry’s; to me they are it’s strengths. Where it can expand? I’m not sure. Despite 34,000 for the International, a good crowd, you hardly expect to see more Internationals, more teams and more fans in the future.
And the evidence I gather re; TV, Crowd figures and junior player numbers don’t come from me, they come League journ’s across Sydney.
Anyway there’ll be a fair few turns and twists in the four football codes battle for growth and survival in the coming years. Plenty to write about.
Don’t worry Steve, you’ll never be out of work.

The Link said  | May 11th 2008 @ 6:40pm | Report comment

RedB, um I think you admitted you were wrong there?!! ‘He started it first’ doesn’t really add to the debate here, play the ball not the man. For what its worth I don’t see much different here from League fans than the defences that you put up for AFL.

Eamonn, nice try but you’re still struggling to back up what you’re saying. By continuing to extrapolate one crowd for one game as evidence of League’s decline, then i’d suggest its only your argument that is showing signs of cracking.

Paul said  | May 11th 2008 @ 8:19pm | Report comment

P.S

It seems I had my figures a bit wrong.

Hobart: 205 566
Darwin: 114 368
Launceston: 71 395

Obviously there are a lot of regional spectators at games in Launceston. It is puzzling why games would not be held in Hobart, if it is three times bigger. However, this underlines even more that games are unlikely to succeed in the near future in Darwin.

westy said  | May 11th 2008 @ 11:16pm | Report comment

Do not worry Redb……your Ok ……Res Ipsa Loquitor …the thing speaks for itself. Saw the Kangaroos v Kiwis Test on Friday night after reading all about doomsday.predictions. Crowd of 34500 out of current capacity of 35 800 due to construction.Not Melbourne like but for league in Sydney not half bad. Then witnessed a superb coverage by 9 past highlights of well known players , tests . and intelligent commentary. Johns is infectious but keeps on the right side and Sterling just brilliant . Even Gould kept his volume down . Rugby, AFL , football or league any code that produces a try like that of Inglis or the AFL like marking of Folau or the deadly kicking of Thurston or sheer guts of Mannering and Williams in the second half I will watch again and will be watched by others again. …..Redb even reminded me of when big Sironen played………saw the Vics and Dream team on the tele… 69000 good atmosphere…great skills and committment…to many bunnings and other ads…..Channel 10 still do not know how to do it yet but great spectacle. If either of these codes is at the cross roads and they may well be can I have some more. I am suspicious now and perhaps a little naieve that say unlike Spiro or Redb with their clear preferences they still appreciate the good things/skills in the other codes. I am often taken a back by the denial of this by some. This denial may be tribal ignorance but in league’s case it sometimes verges on a bigotry which has more to do with the socio economic background of league base support than the game itself. In Melbourne this class bias is often aimed at a couple of teams rather than a whole code of AFL.. For all league,s so called troubles , its macho mundaneness at times it can still produce pieces of brilliance that any true sporting follower will appreciate and will keep people at least watching.for some time yet.

Dave Gilbank said  | May 12th 2008 @ 3:32am | Report comment

Paul.

woooooooooooohoooooooooooooooo…”Melbourne storm not working” - as they say in the East end of London “You’re ‘avin a laff, aint ya?”

The Link said  | May 12th 2008 @ 9:08am | Report comment

RedB, i’ll explain again, the week quoted by W Warambeal was effectively a ’split’ round in the NRL with 4-5 teams having the bye and half the games available, so concluding;

“but if you look back 12 months ago and prior, at least the top 8 games would have all been NRL”

is impossible.

cosmos forever said  | May 12th 2008 @ 9:43am | Report comment

Because AFL fans actually go to the games maybe…

The Link said  | May 12th 2008 @ 10:00am | Report comment

RedB, exactly. I’ll put it a bit clearer:

Week W Warambeal quoted in 2008: “Split” Round NRL
Week RedB quoted in 2006: Full round NRL

Therefore drawing any conclusions is impossible. Based on W Warambeal’s week, AFL may appear to have made up ground in 2008, but you can’t use a “split” round to compare to a full round, because there’s less NRL games to compare to AFL games!!

Agree the AFL reference was out of topic, but there’s better defences for AFL than Pay TV figures.

Crosscoder said  | May 12th 2008 @ 10:47am | Report comment

RedB
Melbourne Storm their crowds are indeed pitiful compared to AFL crowds in Melbourne.The NRL would hardly have expected otherwise.The Storm has at least grown its crowd from11,000 to a 13,000 average in an “alien” territory.The Storm with 2 G/F wins and another appearance has at least created a niche interest and market,and that is all the code expected.The 262,000 average Vics who watched the rl test either suggested there were a hell of a lot of NZedders watching in Melbourne,or at least some Melburnians at least threw the switch on.if you hatesomething you dont watch it,simple.
TV ratings :maybe the ch9 execs in Melbourne are seeing the appallingly low FTA ratings for AFL in Sydney,and taking a cautious approach,despite their contract stipulating the NRL games be on before 12.Suggest whoever gets the next Tv contract will have NRL on FTA at decent hours.
Junior development:.More than marginally better than the early days for heavens sake.
.You stated so yourself the early development by the Stormwas non existent.Altona and the Muuray Goulburn and the schools developments,would suggest its more than marginal.
Media no surprise again:.To put things into perspective,the Swans with all the media support,gets terrible TV ratings after 25 years,they have a recognition factor in Sydney,but if they fell over ,life would go on.Maybe it too has a novelty factor if you look at the TV ratings.

Redb said  | May 12th 2008 @ 11:29am | Report comment

The Link,

So the question has to be asked, why use these split round pay tv figures to defend NRL then?

I’m not really fussed about pay tv, it is rugby leagues’ domain dont lose any sleep over it, just made an observation.

Redb

The Link said  | May 12th 2008 @ 12:54pm | Report comment

RedB, I didn’t make the post, i’m not sure!! My only concern is that they were analysed within the context of what NRL round it was.

Claiming the high ground in insecurity is a bit rich don’t you think? I’ve only ever seen it dished out in spades across all tabs on this (and other) forums from fans of all persuasions.

sheek said  | May 12th 2008 @ 1:44pm | Report comment

Cosmos forever,

“Have balls, will travel”. (Good title for a sports book!).

I’ve got my 4 balls - AFL, union, league & soccer. What time you want me ’round for the roast?

Crosscoder said  | May 12th 2008 @ 2:37pm | Report comment

RedB
One certainly can compare the Swans and Storm.The Swans in existence for 25 years,where AFL has been played in local comps for decades.The Swans with crowds on many occasions under the 10,000 mark in the first 10 years.Then along came super league and the biggest leg up for opposition codes.The Swans playing in a stadium with decent facilities and an oval ground,compared to the Storm in ordinary facilities in a 3rd world stadium,and the T Dome is not exactly great for viewing rl and union.
Yes the Swans are more entrenched than the Storm, (a no brainer )and so they should with the a 15 year head start and having a grassroots comp in existence in NSW.Thank super league for assistence.
The simple fact the Swans with all the media assistance,with a long time on FTA Tv ,whilst getting crowds at the game is doing very poorly on TV ratings.The recent Dream team ratings for Brisbane and Sydney combined for the AFL was again .
very poor.Read into it FWIW the Tv ratings in melbourne for the RL test exceeded the TV ratings in Sydney and Brisbane for the hall of Fame match of the AFL.Let us hope that a new TV contract will give rugby league exposure in all states on FTA.
CH9 Melbourne certainly aren’t sticking to their contractual obligations.

Please don’t go on with the tiresome NSW expats and property refugees argument,the latter actually go to coastal areas of NSW and Qld and the resource rich areas of WA and Qld.You could throw up the argument that all Swans supporters are Vic /SA expats.Expats naturally will gravitate to the sport of their origin
Your last comment about insecurity is laughable,especially when I see no shortage of AFL people in newletters,bloggs serving it up to rugby league and soccer.
If anything rugby league people tend to be at times more criticial of their game,its administration,than quite a few codes.
Insecurity is in the eyes of the beholder.No, we know Melburnians would never stoop at bagging rugby league,union,and soccer.The pink curly tailed critters are about ready for take off.

Redb said  | May 12th 2008 @ 3:12pm | Report comment

Let’s agree to disagree.

your statement below is in fact incorrect, all codes fans bag the administration with the exception of FFA, mainly due to it’s extended honeymoon period.

“If anything rugby league people tend to be at times more criticial of their game,its administration,than quite a few codes.”

Steve Kaless said  | May 12th 2008 @ 6:42pm | Report comment

Don’t worry Eamonn, I’m not at all concerned about my job security. After all, I’ve got all this A-League to cover in the balmy summer months!

Cheers

Redb said  | May 13th 2008 @ 8:22am | Report comment

Crosscoder,

With respect i think you’ll find union and AFL fans are just as critical.

Redb

Crosscoder said  | May 13th 2008 @ 8:35am | Report comment

RedB
Understood.
Neither of those codes had to contend with a media company takeover of their codes,involving some of the most the most heated vitriol thrown in either direction,at the game and the people administrators and players involved.Even 13 years later there is some hidden animosity toward some participants .
Try following a team which had switched to super league.Try supporting an ARL loyal team ,that had seen its comp decimated.
I have watched and followed this game for decades both here and in England and NZ,and people who I have met (non rl types) are amazed at the internal criticism levlled at the agme and administrators.Of course other codes bag their administrators its human nature .

Crosscoder said  | May 13th 2008 @ 10:39am | Report comment

MichaelC.
All hypotheticals as to expansion and media rights for rugby league at this stage,as the contract does notexpire for at least 43 years.Who knows ,what is around the corner,if there is a major depression in this country(hope it never happens),all codes would feel the pinch. You indeed made the point can rl afford to move to Perth.My view can they afford not to.

Nowhere did I state that other fans are not critical of their codes admin etc,its just that we rugby league fans tend to do it more often.The great Arthur Beetson refused to attend the centenary dinner for the best players in 100 years in rl,because of his disagreement with the way he feels the way the administration is directing the game,and its approach to the grassroots.
I have had the pleasure of meeting Artie on a rl tour,and he doesn’t hold back with his views on many aspects of the game,which have been displayed in print and mentioned on radio.
What I am trying to get across that rl fans have made it almost obligatory,to bag the refs,admin,facilities,admin,people within the game,mergers(none in AFL),relocation,poaching by the ESL and union,greed,players threatening to go on strike etc etc etc.
Yes AFL has had dramas,but for anyone to compare a couple of clubs likely to be merged or relocated,with a corporate takeover of a CODE(RL) is living on another planet.The SL war affected the game not only in Aust,but the Pacific Islands,Sth Africa,England and France and even PNG.
Sorry Super League dramas went from 95 until the reinstatement of Souths,and Nth Sydney and merged clubs are still not in some cases happy campers. AFL problems are small bikkies compared to that.

W Warambeal said  | May 13th 2008 @ 11:59am | Report comment

Just fora change I’ll give you last week’s Pay TV Ratings:

http://www.astra.org.au/content/pdf/MediaReleases/ASTRA-Ratings-for-Week-080504.pdf
1
LIVE & ACTIVE: NRL ROOSTERS V RAIDERS Fox Sports 2 Sat 17:30 274 274 1,209 596

2
LIVE: NRL BULLDOGS V PANTHERS Fox Sports 2 Sat 19:30 274 274 1,276 607

3
LIVE: AFL SYDNEY V WESTERN BULLDOGS Fox Sports 1 Sun 13:00 219 219 1,089 563

4
LIVE & ACTIVE: AFL ESSENDON V PORT AD Fox Sports 1 Sun 16:31 193 193 1,118 624

5
NRL COWBOYS V SHARKS Fox Sports 2 Sat 21:20 189 189 1,107 512

6 FAMILY GUY FOX8 Tue 18:41 186 231 933 1,092
7
LIVE: NRL WARRIORS V RAIDERS Fox Sports 2 Sun 14:00 186 186 1,128 441

8 THE SIMPSONS FOX8 Tue 19:07 172 208 984 1,869
9 SELLING HOUSES AUSTRALIA Lifestyle Wed 19:30 154 178 1,166 617
10 LIVE: NRL SATURDAY PRE GAME SHOW Fox Sports 2 Sat 16:55 152 152 1,107 275
11 AUSTRALIA’S NEXT TOP MODEL FOX8 Tue 19:31 150 217 1,163 675
12 FUTURAMA FOX8 Tue 18:16 144 170 821 1,036
13 LIVE: AFL PRE GAME SHOW Fox Sports 1 Sun 16:01 143 143 1,090 253
14 LIVE: AFL: ON THE COUCH Fox Sports 1 Mon 20:30 133 133 1,093 215
15 PROPERTY LADDER Lifestyle Wed 20:30 129 152 1,036 456
16 GRAND DESIGNS Lifestyle Thu 20:33 126 155 1,079 488
17
LIVE: RUGBY UNION: S14 REDS V CRUSADERS Fox Sports 3 Sat 19:30 118 118 1,274 282

18 LIVE: RUGBY LEAGUE: TOYOTA CUP Fox Sports 2 Sat 15:15 113 113 1,077 355
19 THE INSPECTOR LYNLEY MYSTERIES UKTV Sun 20:30 111 124 1,121 240
20 KEEPING UP APPEARANCES UKTV Sun 19:30 101 112 1,215 152
21 PROJECT RUNWAY Arena Mon 20:31 98 108 1,095 365
22
NCIS TV1 Thu 19:34 93 121 1,108 966
23 LAW & ORDER W Mon 20:31 92 101 1,100 665
24 LAW & ORDER: SVU TV1 Sat 16:10 90 102 1,117 1,022
25 MY FAMILY UKTV Sun 20:00 90 101 1,139 247
26 AMERICAN IDOL FOX8 Thu 19:35 89 108 1,110 674
27 EASTENDERS UKTV Tue 19:00 87 98 981 338
28 HANNAH MONTANA Disney Channel Mon 17:31 83 83 885 575
29 AMERICAN DAD! FOX8 Sun 21:30 81 97 1,068 260
30 LIVE: NRL SUNDAY PRE GAME SHOW Fox Sports 2 Sun 13:32 80 80 1,040 140
31 WWE RAW FOX8 Wed 15:30 77 102 769 534
32 ACTIVE: WILD HOGS Movie One Sun 20:30 77 88 1,103 208

33 WWE SMACKDOWN! FOX8 Fri 15:30 77 97 818 482
34 WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? UKTV Tue 19:32 74 92 1,168 198
35 LIVE: FOOTBALL: AFC CHAMPIONS LEAGUE Fox Sports 1 Wed 20:00 74 74 1,087 287
36 BARGAIN HUNT Lifestyle Wed 21:35 72 79 963 574
37 CORONATION STREET UKTV Wed 18:05 72 80 783 322
38 KING OF THE HILL FOX8 Sun 20:00 71 91 1,139 632
39 DRY SPELL GARDENING Lifestyle Thu 19:30 71 89 1,090 309
40 LAW & ORDER: CRIMINAL INTENT TV1 Sat 20:35 70 85 1,350 662
41
GHOST RIDER Showtime Sat 20:30 69 93 1,235 557

42
LIVE: RUGBY UNION: S14 HURR V FORCE Fox Sports 3 Fri 17:30 69 69 881 202

43 AFL: THE WINNERS Fox Sports 1 Mon 19:30 68 68 1,031 230
44 8 SIMPLE RULES FOX8 Mon 19:37 68 89 1,025 310
45 THE SUITE LIFE OF ZACK & CODY Disney Channel Thu 17:01 67 67 736 557
46
AFL MELBOURNE V FREMANTLE Fox Sports 1 Sun 19:30 62 62 1,143 265

47 FOOTBALL: EPL HIGHLIGHTS Fox Sports 1 Mon 18:30 62 62 1,003 167
48
A TOWN LIKE ALICE Fox Classics Sun 20:30 61 64 1,066 246

49 CARS Disney Channel Mon 18:30 61 61 1,017 220
50 AS TIME GOES BY UKTV Fri 17:32 60 82 838 310

W Warambeal said  | May 13th 2008 @ 8:12pm | Report comment

Michael C here are last week’s Pay TV ratings for the mainland capital cities only. Subtract these figures from the above & you will get the regional Pay TV numbers.

The figure that caught my eye was the poor numbers for union especially in the regional where one would expect them to be reasonable strong (NSW & Queensland have about three-quarters of this population category). For instance the Reds v Crusaders got 90,000 in the cities & 28,000 in the bush. Each of the NRL games got something like 100,000 in these areas.

Look at the Toyota Youth Championship. This is the RL Under 20 competition commenced this year. It obtained 43,000 in the cities & 70,000 in the bush. It totalled 113,000 which is not far short of the Reds’ number.

Top 100 Pay Television Programs
Total Individuals
Week 19, 2008 (04/05/2008 - 10/05/2008)
Round to Nearest Thousand
5 City Metro
Prepared by SEVEN NETWORK RESEARCH

TV Item Description (grouped) Channel 5 City Metro
1 LIVE: NRL BULLDOGS V PANTHERS FOX Sports 2 178,000
2 LIVE: AFL SYDNEY V WESTERN BULLDOGS FOX Sports 1 177,000
3 LIVE & ACTIVE: NRL ROOSTERS V RAIDERS FOX Sports 2 162,000
4 LIVE & ACTIVE: AFL ESSENDON V PORT AD FOX Sports 1 156,000
5 NRL COWBOYS V SHARKS FOX Sports 2 126,000
6 LIVE: AFL PRE GAME SHOW FOX Sports 1 119,000
7 LIVE: NRL WARRIORS V RAIDERS FOX Sports 2 107,000
8 LIVE: AFL: ON THE COUCH FOX Sports 1 105,000
9 LIVE: NRL SATURDAY PRE GAME SHOW FOX Sports 2 92,000
10 LIVE: RUGBY UNION: S14 REDS V CRUSADERS FOX Sports 3 90,000
11 THE INSPECTOR LYNLEY MYSTERIES UKTV 83,000
12 KEEPING UP APPEARANCES UKTV 74,000
13 WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? UKTV 69,000
14 MY FAMILY UKTV 64,000
15 LIVE: RUGBY UNION: S14 HURR V FORCE FOX Sports 3 57,000
16 LIVE: FOOTBALL: AFC CHAMPIONS LEAGUE FOX Sports 1 56,000
17 FAMILY GUY FOX8 55,000
18 A TOWN LIKE ALICE FOX Classics 54,000
19 LAST OF THE SUMMER WINE UKTV 52,000
20 AUSTRALIA’S NEXT TOP MODEL FOX8 50,000
21 THE SIMPSONS FOX8 50,000
22 FOOTBALL: EPL HIGHLIGHTS FOX Sports 1 48,000
23 LIVE: RUGBY UNION: S14 H’LAND V BLUES FOX Sports 3 47,000
24 DALZIEL AND PASCOE UKTV 45,000
25 FUTURAMA FOX8 45,000
26 FOYLE’S WAR UKTV 44,000
27 LIVE: NRL SUNDAY PRE GAME SHOW FOX Sports 2 44,000
28 AS TIME GOES BY UKTV 44,000
29 LIVE: RUGBY LEAGUE: TOYOTA CUP FOX Sports 2 43,000
30 JAG TV1 42,000
31 ACTIVE: WILD HOGS Movie One 42,000
32 PROPERTY LADDER Lifestyle 42,000
33 LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION Lifestyle 40,000
34 LIVE: MOTORSPORT: MOTOGP ROUND 4, CHINA FOX Sports 3 39,000
35 AMERICAN DAD! FOX8 37,000
36 TENANTS FROM HELL 3 Lifestyle 37,000
37 SELLING HOUSES AUSTRALIA Lifestyle 36,000
38 LAW & ORDER: SVU TV1 35,000
39 ICE ROAD TRUCKERS FOX8 34,000
40 WAKING THE DEAD UKTV 34,000
41 GHOST RIDER Showtime 34,000
42 WWE RAW FOX8 34,000
43 THE POISONERS Crime & Investigation 34,000
44 STILL STANDING FOX8 34,000
45 POLICE ACADEMY Comedy Channel 34,000
46 RUGBY UNION: S14 STORMERS V BRUMBIES FOX Sports 3 33,000
47 LIVE: FOOTBALL: EPL ARSENAL V EVERTON FOX Sports 2 33,000
48 GRAND DESIGNS Lifestyle 33,000
49 MONK TV1 33,000
50 CASINO ROYALE Movie One 32,000
51 MY HERO UKTV 31,000
52 LAW & ORDER: CRIMINAL INTENT TV1 31,000
53 NED AND STACEY TV1 31,000
54 POLICE TEN 7 FOX8 30,000
55 THE ROBINSONS UKTV 30,000
56 WWE SMACKDOWN! FOX8 30,000
57 MOST SHOCKING MOMENTS FOX8 30,000
58 TIM GUNN’S GUIDE TO STYLE Arena 29,000
59 THE WEST WING W 29,000
60 CARS Disney Channel 29,000
61 DOC MARTIN UKTV 28,000
62 ARTHUR AND THE INVISIBLES Movie One 28,000
63 ‘ALLO ‘ALLO! Comedy Channel 28,000
64 AFL MELBOURNE V FREMANTLE FOX Sports 1 28,000
65 SOME MOTHERS DO ‘AVE ‘EM UKTV 27,000
66 RELOCATION RELOCATION Lifestyle 27,000
67 THE SONS OF KATIE ELDER FOX Classics 27,000
68 PROJECT RUNWAY Arena 27,000
69 WWE EXPERIENCE FOX8 27,000
70 FRASIER TV1 27,000
71 LIVE: FOOTBALL: EPL NEWCASTLE V CHELSEA FOX Sports 2 27,000
72 THAT ‘70S SHOW FOX8 27,000
73 AUSTRALIA’S NEXT TOP MODEL FOX8 +2 26,000
74 LAW & ORDER W 26,000
75 COLUMBO TV1 26,000
76 NCIS TV1 26,000
77 GOLF: INSIDE THE PGA TOUR FOX Sports 3 26,000
78 KING OF THE HILL FOX8 25,000
79 PIMP MY RIDE: BIGGEST HEAPS MTV 25,000
80 FOOTBALL: EPL HIGHLIGHTS FOX Sports 2 25,000
81 CELEBRITY APPRENTICE Arena 25,000
82 THE BONE COLLECTOR TV1 25,000
83 THE SIMPSONS FOX8 +2 25,000
84 JUDGING AMY W 25,000
85 THE GOODIES Comedy Channel 25,000
86 LIVE: AFL TEAMS FOX Sports 1 25,000
87 GUINNESS WORLD RECORDS FOX8 25,000
88 LIVE: NETBALL: ANZ CHAMPIONSHIP FOX Sports 3 25,000
89 EASTENDERS UKTV 25,000
90 FISHING WESTERN AUSTRALIA Lifestyle 25,000
91 HUMAN WEAPON FOX8 25,000
92 FAMILY GUY FOX8 +2 24,000
93 HOGAN’S HEROES TV1 24,000
94 THE QUIET MAN FOX Classics 24,000
95 BLEAK HOUSE UKTV 24,000
96 FOOTBALL: EPL CLASSIC MATCH FOX Sports 2 24,000
97 TALLADEGA NIGHTS Showtime 24,000
98 PIRATE ISLANDS: LOST TREASURE OF FIJI Disney Channel 24,000
99 SCARE TACTICS FOX8 24,000
100 LIVE: NRL ON FOX FOX Sports 2 24,000

Michael C said  | May 14th 2008 @ 9:08am | Report comment

Crosscoder –

re Perth - - granted - - but, the smaller population base of Perth,and, the fact that subsequent to the short lived Reds that the Glory are now part of this wonderful HAL, and the Force have come to town and are a ‘power’ on the rise - - just for overall benefits - - it may be too risky when I’d certainly push the Central Coast as a priority,

the AFL, yep, huge risk - - but, they can’t afford NOT to have a game a week in each of QLD and NSW during the regular season - - and we saw the benefit of a Swans sunday arvo match on paytv - - a 2 city (Melb and Syd) viewership!!! (compared to the 2 city viewership of the NRL often with Syd and Bris). AFL needs more of that to provide greater value - - especially if the 2 new teams - therefore, 1 extra game a week - goes straight to PayTV - - and thus allows PayTV to further increase it’s % viewed ration WITHIN houses with FTA & PayTV.

The NRL - - on the same provision - - would there be a chance of a Perth AND a Central Coast come in overnight? I don’t reckon there’s much sense in 1 extra team for too long with a bye.

Michael C said  | May 14th 2008 @ 10:10am | Report comment

let me paraphrase:

“I tend to think that while RL has some problems it nothing compared to the problems that John Ryan has just being relevant to anyone.”

Redb said  | May 14th 2008 @ 10:35am | Report comment

John ryan,

Getting personal again rather than debating the facts. Perhaps other less robust websites would suit your diatribe.

Redb

westy said  | May 14th 2008 @ 5:13pm | Report comment

Lazza…I believe we are very lucky to have such a choice. I think at the moment that the position of the Australian Cricket captain is the most nationally prestigous in Australian sport. This may change but the captain of the Wallabies ,Socceroos, Kangaroos or AFL club side still does not have the national resonance as this position. Football will be the number one sport but one criteria will be when it is able to easily retain the best junior athletes at the elite end. This is starting to happen but traction in some ethnic groups is still low. O’connor was a ACT rep football player, as was Burke until he went to Joeys.The list is a long one of quality athletes lost to football. The list is worse when you include AFL players lost to football at an elite junior level. I think the proposed national football U/14 team playing “junior” internationals is a step in the right direction. Football’s problem is not at the broad end of the market but at the quality end.

John Ryan said  | May 14th 2008 @ 5:24pm | Report comment

Midfielder,I stand corrected on the bloke who wrote the article,but not on what I said about (a)Rugby Union.(b)The AFL holy father Micheal C(c) Sir Echo, love you remarks though, more robust websites, you have led a sheltered life son,I can do this standing on my head,and given the how thin skinned you are old mate I think maybe you should find a more friendly place, Big Footy perhaps you can join a bigger daisy chain there.

john Ryan said  | May 14th 2008 @ 7:57pm | Report comment

Reverting to form Echo threats as per, dear dear grow up if you dont like it ignore it

Towser said  | May 15th 2008 @ 1:03pm | Report comment

MIdfielder

Agree that the tide is turning but disagree that top players from other codes would have made it in football.
You are assuming from that statement that because a person is athletic has quick reflexes is fast strong good peripheral vision and anticipation plus excellent handling skills that he would make it in football.
If they have no foot -ball control they are as useless as “tits on a bull”.
Isn’t that why Rob Baan has been brought in to improve our Foot-ball technique.
The only ones from the list you quoted where there is any evidence that they had the necessary foot-ball skills to be Internationals are the Waugh twins who I believe played junior representative football.

westy said  | May 15th 2008 @ 10:01pm | Report comment

Towser… representative junior soccer is still culturally skewed. I am not talking about mere athletes. A country like Nigeria or the Cameroonns is represented by all ethnic/physical communities within their countries.Their is a ethnic physical shape/speed missing in genreral from the Socceroos. Over 185 cm muscular and fast not pretty but very difficult to knock of the ball…only Australian Serb/Croat boys currently provide this body type in any numbers. As difficult as this is speed in its purest sense is not a hallmark of Australian football. Players with explosive acceleration are often lost to football at an early age due to cultural influences of other games. The greatest depth is still in the Anglo/Celtic community.Gascoigne was never small,. It is not superiority just numbers and genetics.Only 3 of the 1000,s of players in the other codes may have made the grade but what a 3. I believe football will eventually retain them the beginnings of change have begun but that powerful striker or defender is definitely in this group and its psyche.

Towser said  | May 17th 2008 @ 2:42pm | Report comment

Midfielder ,Westy ,Michael C

I take all your points on board but they are irrelevant to what I said.
We are talking about Foot-ball skills. Unless you understand exactly what I mean by that ie you probably need to have played but observation of Messi ,Ronaldhinho etc should give the non player some idea.
So given we have the ideal athlete as described(and this is the only point I was making) he will be as useful as “tits on a bull ” unless he has Foot-ball skills.
Unless a player has the necessary inbuilt aptitude to control a football perhaps examplified best by standing on one leg & effortlessly doing keep ups you are limited to what you can acheive in Association Football. Observe any of the current top players in Australia either at training or warming up before a match . All effortlessly can do keep ups. It may sound simplistic to a casual observer but having grown up in a football town where all the boxes were ticked for athletic quick reflexes etc only those with the Foot-ball skills went on to be professionals.
I was fast strong and athletic I was a decent footballer but I would never have been a professional ,because my Foot-ball skills were inferior. A few players had uncanny balance & ball skills but lacked many of the other attributes. Then you’d strike one who had all the requirements needed to be a professional footballer.
Given the competition for players in the various sports. If it came to a contest between a player with effortless ball skills but lacking in one or two or the other attributes providing he also had a football brain(ie the ability to read the play & put through the defence splitting pass etc) I would chose him/her above the complete athlete package without the ball skills.
Was Maradona a decathalon candidate? I dont think so.
Hence I hark back to what Rob Baan is trying to acheive(forget the Fossie ramblings) to give kids playing football the chance to develop these ball skills,without the athletic pressures.Not all will reach the required level. Those that do and also have all or some of the other attributes will be the ones more likely to become professional footballers.
We’ve been doing it the wrong way round in Australia Athlete first(even heard Arnie shout “Go Son” in the Asian Cup) then maybe skill development. Thats why Rob Baan is here to help change the football culture.

Midfielder said  | May 20th 2008 @ 4:30pm | Report comment

Towser

Mate you are missing the point I am not talking about someone who is a good sportsman. Steve & Mark Waugh played for NSW at U / 15 level in football. Bobby Fulton plaed reps for south coast until U / 14. ET (impossible name to spell) was one of leagues greates centres played football intil U 16, played for Olympic rep team. Lost to Cronulla in league went on the play for Australia and star in state of orgin, did not play league until he was 16 year old.

You have the bull by the horns, I am talking about keeping hopefull half of the top 4 in a 1, 000 players.

Towser said  | May 20th 2008 @ 8:18pm | Report comment

Cant see that any of the replies made relate to the point I’m making. But your entitled to your perspective and I’ll leave it at that.

John Ryan said  | May 21st 2008 @ 10:58am | Report comment

Dear Eamonn, stick to Football son,stop dreaming,if Murdock could not kill Rugby League your lot wont,neither will Spiros and O’Neil or Micheal C and Echos AFL ,get it through your thick skulls.
Crack Ok what about the Glory,they have the Staggers,Crack????

Towser said  | May 21st 2008 @ 11:56am | Report comment

John Ryan

Veered from the subject matter somewhat earlier and generally stick to football but having been brought up in the North of England within earshot of RL territory let me just say this.
Football has always been bigger than RL. RL towns have always been surrounded by bigger Football towns. Nowadays the EPL casts a giant shadow over all sports in England and some may some throughout the world. However RL retains its following in its heartland towns just the same as it has always done.
Now if RL living under the football monolith in England is OK why would RL in Australia given the amount of publicity & support it gets in its heartlands of NSW & QLD “crack”?.
What Eamonn and many others seem to be doing is looking for the demise of other sports as an indicator that football is on the rise & being given a leg up by this supposed “cracking”of other sports.
Football is on the rise because of what it is doing itself by a more professional approach in both the administrative & playing angles resulting in a better standard of football,presentation & consequently more success. Watched the game for 40 years now in Australia & thats the bottom line.
Throughout that time RL has consistently been popular in NSW & QLD, I see no change today.

Towser said  | May 21st 2008 @ 12:57pm | Report comment

Eamon

Why cant the status quo remain?. The boundaries are set traditionally for other sports,they do best within those boundaries . So RL retains its strength within QLD/NSW etc.
Football has no boundaries only the ones set by itself due to poor administration or poor playing standard(judged by Overseas standards).
Personally I dont care which code is best its in the eye of the beholder anyway . Football is enough to keep me satisfied. All I know from 40 years experience is that football has got its act together. Now it has it will be dragged up by the AFC(only today they announced a set of criteria for countries to enter the ACL- only 11 are in at the moment-see the AFC website as links dont seem to work when I put them in ie I lose the post).
So money under the professionalisation of Asian football may come from TV rights & sponsorship outside this country in the long term anyway. Which means that sports like Rugby League can still have some of the cake in Australia without affecting footballs growth at least.
How much is up to their administration.

Towser said  | May 21st 2008 @ 1:40pm | Report comment

Eamonn

Well I guess time will be the judge. I think I may have overlooked the point of the expansion plans of other sports. I was only judging from the status quo remaining.
But from a football perspective were in a very different enviroment to where we were 3 years ago( Asia) so our growth is not solely reliant on happenings within this country.

NUFCMVFC said  | May 24th 2008 @ 8:13pm | Report comment

hmmmm…I’m not sure about “crack” so to speak, but I think they will ahve to facilitate necassary moves a lot quicker, that is the reduction of NSW teams and a lsight expansion or shift to try and get some kind of presence in Perth And Adelaide and a diversification of revenue streams outside of League clubs, things people seem to have been talking about for some time but which will finally be squeezed into fruition. I don’t think League will “crack” in the sense that it will die, but it will have to go through some awkward changes and there may be a few awkward years. The game seems to be very healthy in Queensland, so there will clearly be a shift in the balance of power and a lot fo the cultural norms/traditions that have come about when the balance fo power was entrenched in Sydney. They may even have to start seriously speaking of NRL Grand Finals at Suncorp, especially iF AFL were to buy ANZ stadium as has been mooted

I think with this sort of thing people are looking at things from the perspective of old rules to the Sporting landscape, when a lot of the old ways of looking at things are becoming obsolete, also a change from. In a lot of the reading I have done, I have often come across something approaching a consensus that League is generally a better product for TV, which firstly means it will always be of some kind of appeal to broadcasters and so even if the value does experience a drop of some kind due to digital roolouts and changes in viewing patterns and how value is determined, it will perhaps always be worth a bit. Seems that Union have more struggles, given Time Zone issues with a number fo the Super 14 matches, and the fact that there are rule change issues and the game is being talked of as bland and unexciting

Things are changing, and there will be a climax of sorts it seems from early to next decade, depending on the nature of TV rights deals, the fallout in regards to viable expansion and yotuh participation demographics

Midfielder said  | May 28th 2008 @ 12:29pm | Report comment

I think you are right …………… more importantly it shows the value of a broad based junior league. AFL, NRL & Football have these Union a shadow of the others …………….. Basketball has less than union.

Big lesson there for all, Tennis also has ignored its junior base for years and still does by and large, and look were they are today.

westy said  | May 28th 2008 @ 9:46pm | Report comment

Eamonn…….league will not crack. The Sydney Kings and the Brisbane Bullets are insolvent with no buyers. Contrary to reports the league U/20’s pay tv is doing nearly as well as HAL on Pay TV. Any code that has a private 8 million offer to relocate to Bluetongue is hardly in trouble. As you point out Perth is open to league at least having some junior structure. . The problem is 9 franchises in Sydney. This needs to be restructured . Unlike the super league war the NRL will let market forces determine this one. Hal is developing nicely and a 2nd division comp could be a real winner. As you are aware Blacktown Demons, Marconi etc are really struggling as they also followed league’s Leagues club model which was successful in the 1950’s,60’s,70.s 80.s but has now hit a wall. AFL has shown it is membership, business support and assets that now spell success eg interest in Telstra DOme. Collingwood’s direct ownership of quite a few hotels etc generating net pokie revenue of over 28 million also helps. League like the HAL franchises need to go to a new model membership focused and a drive to derive its true revenue worth based on real ratings. Getting rid of a cumbersome and expensive management structure NRL,ARL,QRL.NSWRL and better still getting back over 50 % of its revenue it loses to News LTD would help. Melbourne will breakeven in 2009 and the Cowboys have very active local offers. News now very m,uch derives a cash positive result from its 50 % ownership of NRL.

Redb said  | May 29th 2008 @ 8:58am | Report comment

Crosscoder,

I don’t support the statement that rugby league will be the first code to crack.

However, your line of defense is attack other codes, 4 Melb AFL clubs in trouble?? - you know little of the game in Melbourne, there is one club (Melb FC) that is in immediate trouble/danger that is losing money fast - not 4 or 5 like the Sydney NRL clubs. The AFL has a governing body that is in a much healthier financial position to support its clubs and work through difficulties, there will be pain and eventually a reduction of 1 or 2 AFL clubs in Melboure in the next decade. The AFL offered North Melb $100 million to relocate, the NRL is offering $8m to merge or relocate- a reflection of the relative financial strength of AFL v NRL. So before you even attempt to suggest that AFL is in the same boat as the NRL you better stop as your wrong.

I didn’t see the 60 minutes story, but managed to find the transcript. It appears pro AFL and this from the host NRL broadcaster - incredbile don’t you think. No one can accuse Ch 9 of bias in this regard. perhaps also a reflection of their want to bid for the next AFL TV rights - yes that $1 billion is almost in the bank. I don’t mean for this to sound arrogant but many RL posters have claimed the AFL will have no chance at getting an increase in its TV rights - well you just saw what Ch 9 think about the western Sdyney expansion - they gave it a fluff piece. By the way, that doesn’t change the fact that the AFL should postpone Western Sydney in my opinion, let the junior programs and leagues, and schools take hold for another 2-5 years and introduce the team in 2015. Of course unless there is strong evidence of substantial growth.

I’ve been reading the Daily Tele (News Ltd) on a regular basis and its wall to wall rugby league (it does own the product), so I wouldn’t have a go at Sydney media. what i find interesting is that a blog writer Barry Dick keeps saying Andrew Demetrious is out to kill rugby league - he has never said that to my knowledge - yet this bloke and others portray it as gospel. Fox’s the Back Page has gone feral in its Anti-AFl stance if this weeks show is anything to go by. - again its News Ltd.

I don;’t want rugby league to die, I think the Leichart game West Tigers v Titans last weekend was great - good on ‘em.

Redb

Crosscoder said  | May 31st 2008 @ 1:47pm | Report comment

RedB
Attacking other codes?(for heaven’s sake mate read what I stated ) I am stating the fact on reports that 4 clubs in Melbourne were doing it tough,that in fact clubs in crisis(in all codes) is not a new or unique phenomenon.The thread was started on the basis rugby league would be the first code to crack.
If that was the case then rugby league cracked during the SL war,and the resultant mergers.If that was the case the relocation of Sth Melbourne to Sydney.All codes are experiencing financial problems of varying degrees,if you think otherwise so be it.
You are assuming then Nth Melbourne is safe and sound in the next few years,if they stay in Melbourne,that is why the AFL pushed for them to the GC.I don’t have to follow the game,I have read enough on the subject.
You interpret again what you want,at no stage did I suggest that the AFL was in a worse postion than the NRL.Who is suggesting they are in the same boat ?
The figure BTW for the NRL is now higher than the initial $8m offer.Rugby league has its problems with Sydney clubs as to finances,never stated otherwise.
Rest assured relocation and/or mergers will occur,and the game will become national,it is a fait accompli,it’s just a matter when.
With ch9 no! it has been typical of their efforts,Eddie must hold a fair sway in that company.Yet the 7 and 10 networks(AFL stations) give rugby league in Sydney at times a more than generous go.Funny that.Maybe that augurs well for the next rugby league contract.
Fox now sees the benefits of the NRL ratings and now the under 20 comp ratings,ensuring more money into the rl coffers next time around.
Giving Billy Browlees the oportunity to bag rl on 60 minutes,and not giving an alternate view smacks of bias.
Imagine ch10 doing a similar story on rl in Melbourne.To use their marketing theme”I don’t think so”.

Well my friend the AFL will have to put through a very convincing argument to ch9 to get close to a $1b deal,as the Tv ratings for AFL in Sydney and Brisbane have been ordinary to say the least.Throwing in a couple of extra teams is no guarantee.Kerry Packer ensured the other stations paid overs for the AFL contract,when the economy was also bouyant.It sure as hell is not rosy ,with everyone being affected.
Suggest you read the Sydney papers a little more often to see the generous coverage AFL gets,proportionately to rugby league,not on isolated occasions.News Ltd doesn’t own rl ,it half owns the game via the NRL partnership.Bit of a difference.The NRL is not running the RLWC2008 in Australia,the ARL is doing the work with a little input from News.
Nothing more ironic than reading a comment that Sydney media is biased toward rugby league,when it comes from an AFL supporter and their “rose cloured” Melbourne media.

Have no fear rugby league will not die,and fantastically entertaining games such as seen on FTA live last night the Broncos v Parramatta at Suncorp stadium, will help ensure it doesn’t.Throw in the thousands of volunteers,and the growth of the game throughout Australia,and now getting into the Tiwi Islands,the positives far outweigh the negatives,which this originator of the thread intended to show.

westy said  | June 1st 2008 @ 9:54pm | Report comment

rEDB…STAY OBJECTIVE AS YOU USUALLY DO I LOSE IT TO….I look at other forums, Colling wood and Melbourne Victory and there is plenty of blindlessly going forward getting hit ,stop,, and go again in defending one’s preference . I am not taking the high ground but I saw an awesome performance by Collingwood against Geelong and saw Parramatta V Broncos on Friday night. If you did not see it watch it . No sporting fan would not appreciate it. Great spectacles Any code that can produce this will not crack. . Rugby league must remodel its business platform more towards an AFL model and relocate some of its Sydney teams. That is all. Murdoch was a problem but not everything he avowed was wrong. Rugby League clubs on the Central Coast and Perth just makes sense with real prospects of success. .The AFL approach is managerial League’s Last man standing or a dog’s breakfast.League has one “rectangular” advantage it can play at some of the expanding football venues. As you and I know in the Dandenong to Southern Highlands of NSW country areas are playing less AFL and in NSW League. Football juniors are increasing .Of all the professional codes in danger of cracking it is Basketball. I do not even think it will fall. AFL must move nationally now whilst it is strong to wait is to court football gradually chipping away at its citadel in Melbourne . In Sydney football has always been King amongst juniors and I think in the medium to long term this will happen in Victoria. also..

John Ryan said  | June 2nd 2008 @ 12:33am | Report comment

I gotta love you Echo,you are perfectly happy to abuse every one else but by Christ is there anyone that squeals louder that you if it comes back, you have no idea what you are talking about most time and you are a perfect example of a man who noes nothing but like the empty vessel he is shouts louder so all can see what an ignorant prat he is.
To the gentleman who was on about $500 mil for the new stadium for the AFL your about one and a half billion short,the MES upgrade promised at the last election which the council is trying to fund or arrange it is $35 million,now a small point about the membership of the AFL clubs in WA,as to whether this apply’s to other states I am not sure.
There was a bloke here called Gruilisch he used to be on 6pr hes dead now but he said that the AFL clubs in Perth inflated theitr membership by including AUSKICK kids in the total,he said it on radio many times and as far as I know it was never refuted.
I believe the same thing apply’s to Sydney and Brisbane,where whole schools are counted as AFL if the have a one hour a week playing with a football, I assume they mean a rules one though with the lies the AFL tell you never know.
And kindly don,t tell me the AFL don,t lie because it does,only difference is it has a compliant media in the AFL states who don,t look beyond what they are fed.

Redb said  | June 2nd 2008 @ 8:58am | Report comment

John Ryan

Another post from you filled with puerile rubbish. Your in Perth - enjoy the footy. Rugby league failed over there, how long did the team last without News Ltd propping it up? News Ltd runs rugby league, even your best journalists blame it for the code’s troubles. For the next RL TV rights I wonder what they are going to charge themselves?

“There was a bloke here called Gruilisch he used to be on 6pr hes dead now but he said that the AFL clubs in Perth inflated theitr membership by including AUSKICK kids in the total,he said it on radio many times and as far as I know it was never refuted” - is that the best you can do? a bloke whose dead said something….?

1 in 19 Australians are members of an AFL club. Its the type of support rugby league needs and Gallop has openly admitted it. The AFL has an independent commission maybe rl should investigate that also.

Redb

Redb said  | June 2nd 2008 @ 11:16am | Report comment

John Ryan,

The burden of proof is on you to back up your claim. Club membership numbers would be astronomical if kids registered for Auskick Australia wide were included.

Redb

Dave said  | June 2nd 2008 @ 10:38pm | Report comment

Paul
Whatever you’re on must be good or is it the isolation in Siberia?
“A lot of the time, when kids play soccer, it is because their mums are afraid of the other football codes. (In reality I see soccer players going off on stretchers far more often than the other codes, when they get tripped up, so the mums really should be afraid of soccer.) But by the time they get to high school, a lot of kids are switching to the other codes. It happens in America, all kids want to play NFL. It happens in Sydney, the kids still switch back to RL at high school. And it will keep happening in Melbourne too.”
So where is your data to back this up? ABS figures show of the 4 codes football has the greatest numbers at ages 5-14yo and then 15 plus. Look it up.

“Yes, there are more immigrants who like to play soccer and many will continue to do so, as is their freedom” Very generous of you Paul. Perhaps we should stick them all infront of Ch 7 and give them the Herald Sun to read that would soon brain wash them into AFL.

“Also, I find it hard to stomach that the Federal Government are committing $60 million to bidding for the soccer world cup.” Yes Paul they were just voted in a few months ago its called a democracy. Perhaps living in Russia this concept has escaped you. BTW Its $30m and you have been told this several times already. Does it have to be explained again?

“The soccer fad will have its end too. I don’t see why a bit of marketing and restructuring is going to change a 100 year pattern. Three years is hardly enough to prove that anything has really changed.” You can hope and pray all you like Paul but football aint leaving any time soon. Its making inroads into the AFL heartland and this must be the reason for your bitterness against the code. Dont worry AFL will just have to learn to share a little more of the pie with football.

“For a comparison. look at Canada. They only have 6 NHL teams and 8 CFL teams. These are their only professional sporting teams worth mentioning, and yet their population is 50% larger than ours” Heard of Toronto FC in its 2nd year in the MLS. Had a 20,000 seat stadium built for it and they have found it is too small. Season tickets sold out and now Joe Public cant get a ticket. Sorry to bring more bad news Paul. Check it out on the web. You really should do more research before unleashing your tirades of hate against football.

“Soccer will never knock off RL in Sydney and neither will the AFL.”At last we agree and l dont think anyone claims football will knock off RL in Sydenee or AFL in Melb. So whats your point?? This whole rant for a final conclusion thats a no brainer or just another opportunity to denegrate the world game?

Redb said  | June 3rd 2008 @ 9:03am | Report comment

Crosscoder,

Typical of your emotive arguments - you take small piece of evidence and blow it up into a national reality . The difference between your and my comments is that I’ll state if I think rugby league has it got it right, your so caught up in a war footing anti AFl everything you cant see the forest for the trees. Worse I think you and other RL supporters are getting sucked in by the NRL and News Ltd into thinking the AFL are the enemy and the reason Sydney NRL clubs are struggling. It is idiotic to think the AFL wil become the biggest code in Sydney or wants to kill rugby league as had been stated, the AFL wants to grow the game in Sydney it will never dominate. So lighten up.

For clarity, I have said and Westy can verify on many occasions that I don’t think western Sydney is ready for an AFL team. I think the AFL should give it another 3 - 5 years and look at 2015 at least. It will depend on growth at junior level, schools, and domestic leagues, but nothing happens overnight.

I think the Gold Coast is a different story for the AFL, there is genuine support for a team, it will still take a few years to develop. Let’s not forget the Titans are rugby league’s fourth attempt at a team, the Titans are going extremely well now and good luck to them, however that does not mean that the Gold Coast is a rugby league exclusion zone either.

The GC17 consortium has pulled together a team of locals including the Southport Sharks Aussie Rules club and its financial muscle (second biggest entertaiment club in Queensland), plus other well credential sports administrators who know the Gold Coast market, well known future coach in Michael Voss, so yeah I think the Gold Coast AFL team has every reason to think it will succed in the medium to long term.

Rugby league has no history in Melbourne, rugby union has. You can choose to believe a person who lives in Melbourne or not - by your argument you should listen to me. Rugby league in Melbourne in terms of juniors/development would be at the same stage as the AFL in western Sydney. Melb Storm do get mostly expats and Kiwis to their games - fact. They drew 12,500 the other night - that’s a joke in this town and its consistently around that number. Will it grow? probably yes, becuase they’ve finally realised you have to grow a code from the ground up. Will it dominate Melbourne in ten years? - I’ll let you answer that. Everytime a rugby league fan bangs on about how stupid the AFL are to go into western Sydney in terms of support - THINK Melb Storm in Melbourne - definite parallels as far as local support not expats.

Rugby union with a domestic comp that has been going for 100 years and is played in a number of schools would benefit from a Super 14 team, not the leftovers found in the ARC. You don’t win the hearts and minds with teams of new players and has beens. I have no doubt a full fledged Super 14 team would do well in Melbourne - it appears the ARU doesn’t have the guts to try.

Redb

Crosscoder said  | June 4th 2008 @ 9:11am | Report comment

RedB
You state I am emotive,erhh! isn’t that what debating about one’s sport is all about, if they are passionate enough and certainly we are led to believe AFL followers are passionate.You expect a non response when you come up with your”rl is on its 5th tackle” rubbish.
Check my previous posts I have never argued against any code entering a market.What I have argued and will continue to do so is against the presumptive arrogance of AFL officialdom.If we put a dot on the map here ,everything falls into place.Then with typical arrogance you state where you think rl has got it right,and those of an opposing view are either emotive or wrong.Who needs to lighten up?
Then you assume that rl people blame their ills on AFL that is also rubbish.It has been two things as far as Sydney is concerned reliance on grants from League’s clubs from poker machine profits and a reactive rather than pro active administration.
What we get from the Sydney media electronic and press ,are sugary stories on the AFL supposedly doing this and the AFL doing that .Then we get AFL people approaching junior rl players in the west to switch to AFL.You suggesting the NRL and AFL should form a co op?
The Gold Coast indeed had problems in the past,so did a certain AFL team by the name of the Brisbane Bears.The Titans have indeed got it right this time.The GC 17 or whatever will no doubt get it right.
I will repeat at no stage did I suggest 1) AFL is not allowed to go onto rl /ru states.2)nor did I state AFL will take over RL in Sydney nor conversely the NRL will be huge in Victoria.I still can’t for the life of me figure where you come up with these assertions.
Whenever I dare suggest the NRL is promoting the game in Victoria in the schools or the Tiwis islands,the sniper patrol of the AFL comes out all guns blazing.
Again I am fully aware of ru history in Victoria I played the game for most of my teenage years ,starting with soccer.When I compare 12,500 at a Storm game in a 3rd world stadium,where the game has an extremely short existence after less than 10 years and little development work,with the Swans in the early years up till the 90s with crowds less than 6 figures and a hundred year history in NSW,the NRL would hardly be alarmed.that why Bellamy no doubt was signed for a further 5 years.
An expat or Kiwi who lives in a state,is classified as a citizen of that state or is he a foreign alien.Sheesh.
One can argue the Swans and Lions are mainly expat Victorians/SA and WA-so what!.I have never asked each and every one where they came from,and I doubt you have done likewise with the Storm.
Let me say this,rugby union has been established in NSW for over 100 years,the S14 Waratahs supporters in the main are non Polynesian/Islanders,except when the Crusaders,Blues and Hurricanes come to town and these guys support the NZ teams in great numbers.Additionally if you bother to check the numbers of Polynesian players in the NRL/under 20 and junior comp,and the supporters there are a hell of a lot from those regions.
My wife has Kiwi relatives in Auckland,when I visited before the Warriors came into existence,rugby union was and still is the national code,however the numbers of Kiwis who watched or new about the ARL at the time was amazing.They all loved Mal Meninga,and many of them loved rugby league and it is shown in their support for the NRL throughout Qld,NSW and Vic.Rugby union S14 team is an additional form of enrtertainment for them In Oz and yes many of them are involved playing ru.
Likewise all these so called expats and kiwis and Englanders migrating to WA,make the return of an NRL team more compelling than before.

Crosscoder said  | June 4th 2008 @ 10:09pm | Report comment

RedB
Refutes LOL.
Take an isolated article from the Sydney press,when they have been preaching doom and gloom for rl is hardly a resounding show of support for the game.In any case the subject of weight rating for junior rl teams ,has been around for a few years,due to the influx of much bigger polynesian players in the juniors.It is commonsense and hardly a scoop.
Read recent and past articles by Rebecca Wilson,Richard Hinds,Tim Morrissey in that paper,pro AFL anti rugby league.
The recent 60minutes story(on AFL coming to get you) was an example of pushing the AFL barrow.eg the show noted the Maroubra club had 300 AFL juniors.In total in the eastern suburbs there are 500 .David Gallop being interviewed today on radio,stated the story conveniently did not mention the fact there are at least 5,000 registered rl juniors in that area.No mention of the fact rl has increased the numbers of juniors in Sydney. Billy Brownless bagged rl,no one from rl was given an opportunity to have their response as to AFL.Then we get a mother who is involved with AFL praising the game(fair enough).Where was a rl mother given the same airtime.That sir is bias with a capital B.In any balanced discussion there should be opposing views.That sir is also spin.
To discuss the AFL threat is newspaper reporting ,just as the soccer threat is reported in Melbourne papers and Sydney papers.years ago we had the basketball threat when the Kings were king.Not going off at a tangent .
Might I suggest you investigate the AFL pressure brought to bear on Foxsports to have a Titans match changed from a saturday night,so an AFL one can be played on that night on the GC.The amazing A.D.denies involvement,the NRL say if not him then someone in the organisation.G.Annesley of the NRL has inside info on the pressure put to Fox.The Titan’s Michael Searle told them where to go. I won’t even bother to go into the pressure A.D. put on the SCG trust and the ANZ stadium mgt,to have an intnl rules match 2 days before the opening ceremony of the 2008RLWC.
When the rugby union world cup was about to start in 2003,David Gallop congratulated the ARU and suggested rugby league people should also pass on their best wishes.A.D could learn something.
If News Ltd is in the business all the time of protecting their product,many of their stories(and it is a free press) would suggest otherwise. Many of the most minor of incidents are treated as earth shattering,it sells papers I guess,but its hardly flattering to the game.