Comments on: Rugby League: The first code to crack?

By: Crosscoder

Crosscoder — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 12:09:12 +0000

RedB
Refutes LOL.
Take an isolated article from the Sydney press,when they have been preaching doom and gloom for rl is hardly a resounding show of support for the game.In any case the subject of weight rating for junior rl teams ,has been around for a few years,due to the influx of much bigger polynesian players in the juniors.It is commonsense and hardly a scoop.
Read recent and past articles by Rebecca Wilson,Richard Hinds,Tim Morrissey in that paper,pro AFL anti rugby league.
The recent 60minutes story(on AFL coming to get you) was an example of pushing the AFL barrow.eg the show noted the Maroubra club had 300 AFL juniors.In total in the eastern suburbs there are 500 .David Gallop being interviewed today on radio,stated the story conveniently did not mention the fact there are at least 5,000 registered rl juniors in that area.No mention of the fact rl has increased the numbers of juniors in Sydney. Billy Brownless bagged rl,no one from rl was given an opportunity to have their response as to AFL.Then we get a mother who is involved with AFL praising the game(fair enough).Where was a rl mother given the same airtime.That sir is bias with a capital B.In any balanced discussion there should be opposing views.That sir is also spin.
To discuss the AFL threat is newspaper reporting ,just as the soccer threat is reported in Melbourne papers and Sydney papers.years ago we had the basketball threat when the Kings were king.Not going off at a tangent .
Might I suggest you investigate the AFL pressure brought to bear on Foxsports to have a Titans match changed from a saturday night,so an AFL one can be played on that night on the GC.The amazing A.D.denies involvement,the NRL say if not him then someone in the organisation.G.Annesley of the NRL has inside info on the pressure put to Fox.The Titan’s Michael Searle told them where to go. I won’t even bother to go into the pressure A.D. put on the SCG trust and the ANZ stadium mgt,to have an intnl rules match 2 days before the opening ceremony of the 2008RLWC.
When the rugby union world cup was about to start in 2003,David Gallop congratulated the ARU and suggested rugby league people should also pass on their best wishes.A.D could learn something.
If News Ltd is in the business all the time of protecting their product,many of their stories(and it is a free press) would suggest otherwise. Many of the most minor of incidents are treated as earth shattering,it sells papers I guess,but its hardly flattering to the game.

By: Redb

Redb — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 23:41:45 +0000

Crosscoder,

below is an example of the ‘war’ footing of News Ltd’s Daily Telegraph.

Daily telegraph editorial
31 May, 2008

Protect juniors and our game

“IT’S an elementary fact: some kids are bigger and stronger than other kids of the same age.
Normally, this is no – excuse the pun – big deal. But on a rugby league field, mismatched bodies are a recipe for serious injury.
A 10kg or 20kg weight difference means a lot when you’re the little guy in the equation.
It can mean the difference between a light bruise or broken limb, a split lip or busted teeth.
It can mean the difference between a schoolboy’s parents encouraging him to play league – or to take up a less dangerous sport.
That’s the thinking behind proposals that underage rugby league competitions be divided up not according to age but weight and height.
It makes sense to proceed on this course.
Not only will smaller boys be less exposed to injury but larger kids will be able to hone their skills against like-sized opponents. It’s a win-win.
In fact, if properly implemented, it could be a win/win/win – the third victory being a boost for rugby league player numbers in the face of AFL advances on Sydney’s west.
That’s one among many reasons why a weight-rating is be a good idea for junior rugby league.
We need to save the juniors to keep rugby league where it belongs – as our senior sport. Focus on the job.”

Make up your own mind – is this supportative of rugby league / anti AFL? Kinda refutes your belief that Sydney press are out to get the NRL.

The Daily tele has also published repeated articles on NRL meetings to discuss the AFL threat – that is spin designed to create anti AFL sentiment – hardly free and unbiased opinion for a media company. But of course they are protecting their product.

Redb

By: Crosscoder

Crosscoder — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 23:11:58 +0000

RedB
You state I am emotive,erhh! isn’t that what debating about one’s sport is all about, if they are passionate enough and certainly we are led to believe AFL followers are passionate.You expect a non response when you come up with your”rl is on its 5th tackle” rubbish.
Check my previous posts I have never argued against any code entering a market.What I have argued and will continue to do so is against the presumptive arrogance of AFL officialdom.If we put a dot on the map here ,everything falls into place.Then with typical arrogance you state where you think rl has got it right,and those of an opposing view are either emotive or wrong.Who needs to lighten up?
Then you assume that rl people blame their ills on AFL that is also rubbish.It has been two things as far as Sydney is concerned reliance on grants from League’s clubs from poker machine profits and a reactive rather than pro active administration.
What we get from the Sydney media electronic and press ,are sugary stories on the AFL supposedly doing this and the AFL doing that .Then we get AFL people approaching junior rl players in the west to switch to AFL.You suggesting the NRL and AFL should form a co op?
The Gold Coast indeed had problems in the past,so did a certain AFL team by the name of the Brisbane Bears.The Titans have indeed got it right this time.The GC 17 or whatever will no doubt get it right.
I will repeat at no stage did I suggest 1) AFL is not allowed to go onto rl /ru states.2)nor did I state AFL will take over RL in Sydney nor conversely the NRL will be huge in Victoria.I still can’t for the life of me figure where you come up with these assertions.
Whenever I dare suggest the NRL is promoting the game in Victoria in the schools or the Tiwis islands,the sniper patrol of the AFL comes out all guns blazing.
Again I am fully aware of ru history in Victoria I played the game for most of my teenage years ,starting with soccer.When I compare 12,500 at a Storm game in a 3rd world stadium,where the game has an extremely short existence after less than 10 years and little development work,with the Swans in the early years up till the 90s with crowds less than 6 figures and a hundred year history in NSW,the NRL would hardly be alarmed.that why Bellamy no doubt was signed for a further 5 years.
An expat or Kiwi who lives in a state,is classified as a citizen of that state or is he a foreign alien.Sheesh.
One can argue the Swans and Lions are mainly expat Victorians/SA and WA-so what!.I have never asked each and every one where they came from,and I doubt you have done likewise with the Storm.
Let me say this,rugby union has been established in NSW for over 100 years,the S14 Waratahs supporters in the main are non Polynesian/Islanders,except when the Crusaders,Blues and Hurricanes come to town and these guys support the NZ teams in great numbers.Additionally if you bother to check the numbers of Polynesian players in the NRL/under 20 and junior comp,and the supporters there are a hell of a lot from those regions.
My wife has Kiwi relatives in Auckland,when I visited before the Warriors came into existence,rugby union was and still is the national code,however the numbers of Kiwis who watched or new about the ARL at the time was amazing.They all loved Mal Meninga,and many of them loved rugby league and it is shown in their support for the NRL throughout Qld,NSW and Vic.Rugby union S14 team is an additional form of enrtertainment for them In Oz and yes many of them are involved playing ru.
Likewise all these so called expats and kiwis and Englanders migrating to WA,make the return of an NRL team more compelling than before.

By: Michael C

Michael C — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 00:01:16 +0000

Crosscoder -

on another thread we’ve looked at some of the ABS participation stats state by state for ages 15 and over – - (based on 2005-06),
and for Aust Football – - NSW doesn’t ‘register’. The AFL has so far to go that it doesn’t matter – - and, that’s even with reasonable comps existing.

Although, I might suggest that a population survey sample based predominantly around Sydney for example might actually mis represent the Aust Footy levels from Wagga down and across. So – - it’s possible that there’s actually an understating. But that’s another point all together.

At any rate, Aust Footy pariticipation figures, for males nationally are (’96 was 2.1%) 3.1% compared to RL 1.2%, RU 0.9% and Soccer (’98 was 3.6%) 3.9%.

RL and RU had very similar numbers in ’96, and again int ’98. If anything the RU ‘%’ has dropped over the 10 year period.

Actual numbers increased, but, as a proportion of population – there’s been a drop.

Anyway – - the important thing,
Soccer, RL and RU ALL have over 50% of national participants in NSW. NSW has 33% of national population. These 3 football codes ARE over represented in NSW. And, in the case of RL, the other 40% are in QLD, RU, it drops right away, soccer, next best is 18% in Vic and drops away.
Aust Footy, 50% in Vic, and at number 4 is QLD with 11%. Based on 2 AFL clubs in SA and WA, there’s a very valid argument for a 2nd club in QLD to assist in maintaining or growing that participation base. How much needs to be at the expense of other codes – - I don’t know – - how much might just be engaging more and more kids into some form of physical activity – - hopefully all sports are doing that.
NSW though, again, as mentioned, Aust Footy doesn’t really register, I think it might account for 1-2% of national participants. It’s a blip by virtue of this survey.
However, the AFL MUST grow in the NSW market. But – - seriously – - is it concievable to you or anyone that the AFL (Aust Footy) is likely to seriously challenge RL anywhere in our lifetime in the NSW market?????
That’s just foolish talk. The base to start from is so low. The antagonism in that closed shop market is obvious.

I don’t really understand why some people choose to so readily believe this Sydney based media representation of AFL arrogance, and a supposed ‘turf war’ – - – it’s all being entirely overstated – - and, the average AFL supporter is highly sceptical, thinks Gold Coast is worth a try, and can only assume that the AFL figure that by the time West Sydney comes in that they will have pumped a couple of generations of auskickers through the system.

And – - perhaps, that if Australia bids and loses in an attempt for hosting the FIFA WC – - that, the AFL needs to make hay before just perhaps, one day, Australia might get lucky.

By: Redb

Redb — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 23:03:31 +0000

Crosscoder,

Typical of your emotive arguments – you take small piece of evidence and blow it up into a national reality . The difference between your and my comments is that I’ll state if I think rugby league has it got it right, your so caught up in a war footing anti AFl everything you cant see the forest for the trees. Worse I think you and other RL supporters are getting sucked in by the NRL and News Ltd into thinking the AFL are the enemy and the reason Sydney NRL clubs are struggling. It is idiotic to think the AFL wil become the biggest code in Sydney or wants to kill rugby league as had been stated, the AFL wants to grow the game in Sydney it will never dominate. So lighten up.

For clarity, I have said and Westy can verify on many occasions that I don’t think western Sydney is ready for an AFL team. I think the AFL should give it another 3 – 5 years and look at 2015 at least. It will depend on growth at junior level, schools, and domestic leagues, but nothing happens overnight.

I think the Gold Coast is a different story for the AFL, there is genuine support for a team, it will still take a few years to develop. Let’s not forget the Titans are rugby league’s fourth attempt at a team, the Titans are going extremely well now and good luck to them, however that does not mean that the Gold Coast is a rugby league exclusion zone either.

The GC17 consortium has pulled together a team of locals including the Southport Sharks Aussie Rules club and its financial muscle (second biggest entertaiment club in Queensland), plus other well credential sports administrators who know the Gold Coast market, well known future coach in Michael Voss, so yeah I think the Gold Coast AFL team has every reason to think it will succed in the medium to long term.

Rugby league has no history in Melbourne, rugby union has. You can choose to believe a person who lives in Melbourne or not – by your argument you should listen to me. Rugby league in Melbourne in terms of juniors/development would be at the same stage as the AFL in western Sydney. Melb Storm do get mostly expats and Kiwis to their games – fact. They drew 12,500 the other night – that’s a joke in this town and its consistently around that number. Will it grow? probably yes, becuase they’ve finally realised you have to grow a code from the ground up. Will it dominate Melbourne in ten years? – I’ll let you answer that. Everytime a rugby league fan bangs on about how stupid the AFL are to go into western Sydney in terms of support – THINK Melb Storm in Melbourne – definite parallels as far as local support not expats.

Rugby union with a domestic comp that has been going for 100 years and is played in a number of schools would benefit from a Super 14 team, not the leftovers found in the ARC. You don’t win the hearts and minds with teams of new players and has beens. I have no doubt a full fledged Super 14 team would do well in Melbourne – it appears the ARU doesn’t have the guts to try.

Redb

By: Paul

Paul — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 13:15:12 +0000

Dave,

It wasn’t a rant. Please don’t read that tone into my text. It was an attempt to place things into perspective.

Democracy goes further than an election. Please don’t get cheeky with me, of course I know what democracy is. Do you always have to come up with insults to embellish your argument? Democracy also means that I have the right to question decisions and to criticise them. As I had said earlier, I would love to see an independent poll done on issues surrounding the world cup bid.

Major League soccer, one team in Toronto, also Major League Baseball, one team in Toronto and NBA one team in Vancouver. Most Canadians joke about Toronto not being a part of Canada but really a wanna be US city. Toronto have tried to get an NFL team, because the CFL is not good enough for them. On the whole Canadians only think about Hockey in the winter and Football (CFL) in the Summer. I have lived there for a couple years, so I do know Canada. They do not have nearly the same level of support for professional sport that we do in Australia. That was my point. So I don’t see how you have undone my point, by naming one team that I missed out on. Still the list for Canadian professional teams is now at 17. For Australia it is at 16 AFL, 15 for NRL, 4 for RU, 7 for A-League and 6 for cricket. That’s 48, and a much higher ratio than Canada does. My point was that we already have a far higher ratio of professional sports teams in our country than other countries with a similar standard of living. So I don’t see the territory shifting significantly with the football codes.

But hey, let’s argue till the cows come home.

By: Dave

Dave — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 12:38:48 +0000

Paul
Whatever you’re on must be good or is it the isolation in Siberia?
“A lot of the time, when kids play soccer, it is because their mums are afraid of the other football codes. (In reality I see soccer players going off on stretchers far more often than the other codes, when they get tripped up, so the mums really should be afraid of soccer.) But by the time they get to high school, a lot of kids are switching to the other codes. It happens in America, all kids want to play NFL. It happens in Sydney, the kids still switch back to RL at high school. And it will keep happening in Melbourne too.”
So where is your data to back this up? ABS figures show of the 4 codes football has the greatest numbers at ages 5-14yo and then 15 plus. Look it up.

“Yes, there are more immigrants who like to play soccer and many will continue to do so, as is their freedom” Very generous of you Paul. Perhaps we should stick them all infront of Ch 7 and give them the Herald Sun to read that would soon brain wash them into AFL.

“Also, I find it hard to stomach that the Federal Government are committing $60 million to bidding for the soccer world cup.” Yes Paul they were just voted in a few months ago its called a democracy. Perhaps living in Russia this concept has escaped you. BTW Its $30m and you have been told this several times already. Does it have to be explained again?

“The soccer fad will have its end too. I don’t see why a bit of marketing and restructuring is going to change a 100 year pattern. Three years is hardly enough to prove that anything has really changed.” You can hope and pray all you like Paul but football aint leaving any time soon. Its making inroads into the AFL heartland and this must be the reason for your bitterness against the code. Dont worry AFL will just have to learn to share a little more of the pie with football.

“For a comparison. look at Canada. They only have 6 NHL teams and 8 CFL teams. These are their only professional sporting teams worth mentioning, and yet their population is 50% larger than ours” Heard of Toronto FC in its 2nd year in the MLS. Had a 20,000 seat stadium built for it and they have found it is too small. Season tickets sold out and now Joe Public cant get a ticket. Sorry to bring more bad news Paul. Check it out on the web. You really should do more research before unleashing your tirades of hate against football.

“Soccer will never knock off RL in Sydney and neither will the AFL.”At last we agree and l dont think anyone claims football will knock off RL in Sydenee or AFL in Melb. So whats your point?? This whole rant for a final conclusion thats a no brainer or just another opportunity to denegrate the world game?

By: Crosscoder

Crosscoder — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 11:36:57 +0000

RedB
When you revert to the “mindless drivel”your words garbage,it appears an opposing viewpoint which has validity gets under your skin.There are enough deluded AFL fans,who appear to know more about Western Sydney and the Gold Coast,than the good residents themselves.At least Colless of the Swans is a realist.
Rewarding themselves for missing the goal) reality of the situation or just fumbling to keep it rolling along..
You again showed you fully missed the point(should I be surprised),I am fully aware of the small Tiwi Islands being an AFL bastion.The point and it seems to have missed you completely is that the NRL is in fact targeting that area(an AFL breeding ground),apart from many others.I don’t need to go to the Tiwis,television is in Australia at last reports.
I saw a doco(a week ago) from memory the Barefoot Rugby League indigenous show, on a few Cowboys players and a couple of NRL people on a visit to the Islands promoting health ,and the game of rugby league.The kids were given balls,will they burn them in the Barrassi ,or Capper room LOL.They may now have a choice,and that is what we all want in a democracy hey what!.
Desperate LOL!! spreading the game its called.One thing the game is not desperate for is juniors,it is trying to protect the ones it has,and secure more.The game is doing quite nicely in the Northern Territory,with a couple of players already playing NRL ,just happens to be not far from the Tiwis, so stands to reason to go there.Appears the NRL need an AFL visa.
You appear to read the Telegraph on the odd occasion as some of the rubbish the Telegraph has written on rugby league should be consigned to the trash bin.After reading some of the crapola dished up by the Melbourne press,the irony of your comments is earth shattering.
First of all you stated news owned rugby league,which it doesn’t, now you belatedly admit it has half interest in the game.Flexibility the byword,works all the time in debating.The AFL doesn’t have a media involved ,good on em,they still work with a compliant press.
You appear to know more about the inner workings of the rugby league than the officials
and employees LOL.Better hope they don’t run the ball on th 6th tackle,they might do a Broncos on your comments.
It was 5th tackle when SL started,the game survived(despite news’s involvement) and has grown rapidly at grassroots level.Your view is hardly going to send the NRL ducking for cover.You ignore the clubs outside of Sydney for starters,which again is unsurprising. You ignore private involvement in a couple of Sydney clubs.You ignore clubs involved in setting up building developments.
That is not to say there are financial problems with some Sydney clubs,at least they have an end choice relocation,merge or privatisation or in a couple of cases commercial development
Fox has rugy league as a major subs driver and ratings winner,a healthy game is would be a priority of theirs.
We know all about union in Victoria,with the ARC Rebels with the ARU predicting crowds of 5,000, yet less than half that number appeared.The argument that Storm supporters who according to you are apparently all Kiwis will revert to a union team if they come into that city.The 30,000 school kids the Storm D/os are in regular contact in Victoria,and the increasing numbers in their juniors are all Kiwis.Written spoken and authorised by RedB.
If anything a Melbourne ru side,may have the effect as it does in the UK of assisting further the growth of rugby league.Eg the Harlequins club in London with a union and league aspect,and rugby league junior numbers in London are booming.I am classified as a union junior.
Michael Searle(Titans) stated his son who is a rl fanatic ,was given a short Auskick instruction,and would have been included in the junior numbers.A mate of mine whose kid plays soccer,had a short session of Auskick at his school,the mate wears the hat for a laugh and his kid is still a soccer fanatic.

By: Redb

Redb — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 01:16:09 +0000

John Ryan,

The burden of proof is on you to back up your claim. Club membership numbers would be astronomical if kids registered for Auskick Australia wide were included.

Redb

By: John Ryan

John Ryan — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 00:39:21 +0000

Ah Echo you have done well you proved my point very well (1)about squealing to the mods (2),about being an ignorant prat, There was a bloke here called Gruilisch he used to be on 6pr hes dead now but he said that the AFL clubs in Perth inflated theitr membership by including AUSKICK kids in the total,he said it on radio many times and as far as I know it was never refuted” – is that the best you can do? a bloke whose dead said something….?
Most people would look something up and check about Gruilisch, but not you,ring 6PR in Perth and ask for Bob Mauill and repeat that cause George is dead everything he said is discredited,think old George forgot more about Aussie rules than you will ever know,he was one of the few AFL people I could listen to and enjoy cause he was capable of giving an intelligent answer to a question something that eludes you.
Wonder what I would get back if I google you,a blank page?
6PR (08) 92211882 bob is on between 12pm and 3pm or EST 2pm and 5pm

By: Redb

Redb — Sun, 01 Jun 2008 22:58:14 +0000

John Ryan

Another post from you filled with puerile rubbish. Your in Perth – enjoy the footy. Rugby league failed over there, how long did the team last without News Ltd propping it up? News Ltd runs rugby league, even your best journalists blame it for the code’s troubles. For the next RL TV rights I wonder what they are going to charge themselves?

“There was a bloke here called Gruilisch he used to be on 6pr hes dead now but he said that the AFL clubs in Perth inflated theitr membership by including AUSKICK kids in the total,he said it on radio many times and as far as I know it was never refuted” – is that the best you can do? a bloke whose dead said something….?

1 in 19 Australians are members of an AFL club. Its the type of support rugby league needs and Gallop has openly admitted it. The AFL has an independent commission maybe rl should investigate that also.

Redb

By: Paul

Paul — Sun, 01 Jun 2008 17:04:21 +0000

Red B,

I think in all of these discussions we are forgetting something. A lot of the time, when kids play soccer, it is because their mums are afraid of the other football codes. (In reality I see soccer players going off on stretchers far more often than the other codes, when they get tripped up, so the mums really should be afraid of soccer.) But by the time they get to high school, a lot of kids are switching to the other codes. It happens in America, all kids want to play NFL. It happens in Sydney, the kids still switch back to RL at high school. And it will keep happening in Melbourne too.

Yes, there are more immigrants who like to play soccer and many will continue to do so, as is their freedom. But many will also discover the joys of Aussie Rules as many immigrants have done in the past.

Also, I find it hard to stomach that the Federal Government are committing $60 million to bidding for the soccer world cup. That puts soccer at $97 million; Rugby League at $13 million; AFL at $7.5 million and Rugby Union at $0 million/ billion/ trillion.

Am I supposed to just take this in silence, or should I ROAR even louder???

As far as basketball is concerned, it was probably always inevitable. The basketball fad has come and gone. The baseball fad was around for a while with the ABL (mind you, I like baseball, but still enjoy cricket more). The soccer fad will have its end too. I don’t see why a bit of marketing and restructuring is going to change a 100 year pattern. Three years is hardly enough to prove that anything has really changed. (Dave and Midfielder are casting aim at me right now.)

Australia is not as big a market as we think. The hearts and minds of Australians in the Summer time are at the 1) beach 2) bbq and then 3) the cricket. In the Winter time they are at the local code of choice, be that primarily 1) AFL or 2) NRL. Rugby Union and soccer are part time interlopers. Rugby Union has only been professional for 13 years now. Five years after a world cup in Australia, Rugby Union is starting to struggle. Even though I may personally enjoy Union more, I think League has the strong lead in Australia.

Many team sports have come and gone at the professional level in Australia, but only 3 take any great prominence. Others can maintain a niche position, but the fact is that we don’t have a big enough market to sustain more. For a comparison. look at Canada. They only have 6 NHL teams and 8 CFL teams. These are their only professional sporting teams worth mentioning, and yet their population is 50% larger than ours. The NHL players get paid well, but the CFL players get paid a lot less than AFL players do. Australia already punches well above its weight in the professional sports world.

Rugby League is cracking, and they may have to relocate or reduce teams. But they will survive. The majority of Sydneysiders prefer RL any day of the year. They like having the Swans, but I have a hunch that they think one AFL team is enough, i.e a niche. QLD is of course a different story and always has been. Soccer will never knock off RL in Sydney and neither will the AFL. It will be a very long road with a second Sydney AFL team, but it may be worth it, if only to draw a line in the sand. Still I am not sure that Western Sydney will embrace it quickly. But hey, I could be wrong.

By: John Ryan

John Ryan — Sun, 01 Jun 2008 14:33:30 +0000

I gotta love you Echo,you are perfectly happy to abuse every one else but by Christ is there anyone that squeals louder that you if it comes back, you have no idea what you are talking about most time and you are a perfect example of a man who noes nothing but like the empty vessel he is shouts louder so all can see what an ignorant prat he is.
To the gentleman who was on about $500 mil for the new stadium for the AFL your about one and a half billion short,the MES upgrade promised at the last election which the council is trying to fund or arrange it is $35 million,now a small point about the membership of the AFL clubs in WA,as to whether this apply’s to other states I am not sure.
There was a bloke here called Gruilisch he used to be on 6pr hes dead now but he said that the AFL clubs in Perth inflated theitr membership by including AUSKICK kids in the total,he said it on radio many times and as far as I know it was never refuted.
I believe the same thing apply’s to Sydney and Brisbane,where whole schools are counted as AFL if the have a one hour a week playing with a football, I assume they mean a rules one though with the lies the AFL tell you never know.
And kindly don,t tell me the AFL don,t lie because it does,only difference is it has a compliant media in the AFL states who don,t look beyond what they are fed.

By: Redb

Redb — Sun, 01 Jun 2008 12:53:03 +0000

Westy,

I feel need to caution you against visting Collingwood forums I fear for your well being – stay away from the black and white.

I was at the Coll V Geel prelim final last year with 98,002 in attendance – probably in the top 5 games I’ve been to. Collingwood felt they were a bit unlucky that night to go down by 5 points and miss out on the Grand Final – nothing like a bit of motivation.

Re the football battle for the hearts and minds – I think soccer has always had more juniors and as our immigration numbers sit at around 120,000 per year they will probably increase over time. Aust footy may lose some juniors in Melbourne, but none more than it already does now – that’s fine its their choice. Interestingly basketball had the potential to grow ten years ago and this worried the AFL with the number of taller players (natural fit for AFL) that could have been attracted to the game. The AFL needn’t have worried as many junior basketabllers ended up on AFl player lists, now basketball is in more trouble this has further weakened its pulling power. i like basketball and have been invovled at junior level for 7 years, so thats not a one sport bias.

Back to soccer and perhaps the rugby codes, I think the AFL sensed it had to expand the game to NSw and QLD to ensure it made up for overall numbers available when or if the loss of athletes to other football codes ever made a materail impact in Vic. What has been very good is that the AFL has no forgotten Melbourne with Auskick, I drive past about 150 kids every Saturday morning at our local footy park playing Auskick.

If the ARU ever gets it’s act together in Melbourne, the Storm would lose most of the Kiwis and attract a few Vics to the game.

Finally re Sydney and you would know better, but Sydney in the past has really one had two choices the rugby codes or soccer, i think AFL provides another choice for kids who prefer a combat code of football but are very tall or more suited to an endurance game. Soccer may have benefited from being the only choice to either of the rugby codes.

Redb

By: westy

westy — Sun, 01 Jun 2008 11:54:13 +0000

rEDB…STAY OBJECTIVE AS YOU USUALLY DO I LOSE IT TO….I look at other forums, Colling wood and Melbourne Victory and there is plenty of blindlessly going forward getting hit ,stop,, and go again in defending one’s preference . I am not taking the high ground but I saw an awesome performance by Collingwood against Geelong and saw Parramatta V Broncos on Friday night. If you did not see it watch it . No sporting fan would not appreciate it. Great spectacles Any code that can produce this will not crack. . Rugby league must remodel its business platform more towards an AFL model and relocate some of its Sydney teams. That is all. Murdoch was a problem but not everything he avowed was wrong. Rugby League clubs on the Central Coast and Perth just makes sense with real prospects of success. .The AFL approach is managerial League’s Last man standing or a dog’s breakfast.League has one “rectangular” advantage it can play at some of the expanding football venues. As you and I know in the Dandenong to Southern Highlands of NSW country areas are playing less AFL and in NSW League. Football juniors are increasing .Of all the professional codes in danger of cracking it is Basketball. I do not even think it will fall. AFL must move nationally now whilst it is strong to wait is to court football gradually chipping away at its citadel in Melbourne . In Sydney football has always been King amongst juniors and I think in the medium to long term this will happen in Victoria. also..

By: Redb

Redb — Sun, 01 Jun 2008 11:05:20 +0000

Paul,

Don’t you love these rugby league fans they treat internet forums like the game of rugby leauge itself. Just blindlessly go forward get hit, stop, and the go again for another 4 times and then have to kick to get themselves out of trouble. Even when you demonstrate some empathy with the plight of their game they contiunue with their mindless drivel.

Crosscoder,

your game is at the stage of kicking my friend – 5 tackles are gone. Ohhh the Tiwi islands a bastion of rugby league – mate it has a population of two fifths of bugger all and is very much Australian Rules orientated. I’ve been to the Tiwi Islands have you? The main club on Melville Island (the other one is Bathurst Is) has a Carlton Room, Essendon and Collingwood room – pinning your hopes on the Tiwis Islands shows how utterly desperate you and your ilk have become.

News Ltd only owns half of rugby league, yeah that’s a lot better. No media organisation owns even 1% of the AFL. Some of the rubbish written in the Daily Telegraph is nohting more than looking after its own product – its not editorial but advertorial.

Redb

By: Crosscoder

Crosscoder — Sat, 31 May 2008 03:47:58 +0000

RedB
Attacking other codes?(for heaven’s sake mate read what I stated ) I am stating the fact on reports that 4 clubs in Melbourne were doing it tough,that in fact clubs in crisis(in all codes) is not a new or unique phenomenon.The thread was started on the basis rugby league would be the first code to crack.
If that was the case then rugby league cracked during the SL war,and the resultant mergers.If that was the case the relocation of Sth Melbourne to Sydney.All codes are experiencing financial problems of varying degrees,if you think otherwise so be it.
You are assuming then Nth Melbourne is safe and sound in the next few years,if they stay in Melbourne,that is why the AFL pushed for them to the GC.I don’t have to follow the game,I have read enough on the subject.
You interpret again what you want,at no stage did I suggest that the AFL was in a worse postion than the NRL.Who is suggesting they are in the same boat ?
The figure BTW for the NRL is now higher than the initial $8m offer.Rugby league has its problems with Sydney clubs as to finances,never stated otherwise.
Rest assured relocation and/or mergers will occur,and the game will become national,it is a fait accompli,it’s just a matter when.
With ch9 no! it has been typical of their efforts,Eddie must hold a fair sway in that company.Yet the 7 and 10 networks(AFL stations) give rugby league in Sydney at times a more than generous go.Funny that.Maybe that augurs well for the next rugby league contract.
Fox now sees the benefits of the NRL ratings and now the under 20 comp ratings,ensuring more money into the rl coffers next time around.
Giving Billy Browlees the oportunity to bag rl on 60 minutes,and not giving an alternate view smacks of bias.
Imagine ch10 doing a similar story on rl in Melbourne.To use their marketing theme”I don’t think so”.

Well my friend the AFL will have to put through a very convincing argument to ch9 to get close to a $1b deal,as the Tv ratings for AFL in Sydney and Brisbane have been ordinary to say the least.Throwing in a couple of extra teams is no guarantee.Kerry Packer ensured the other stations paid overs for the AFL contract,when the economy was also bouyant.It sure as hell is not rosy ,with everyone being affected.
Suggest you read the Sydney papers a little more often to see the generous coverage AFL gets,proportionately to rugby league,not on isolated occasions.News Ltd doesn’t own rl ,it half owns the game via the NRL partnership.Bit of a difference.The NRL is not running the RLWC2008 in Australia,the ARL is doing the work with a little input from News.
Nothing more ironic than reading a comment that Sydney media is biased toward rugby league,when it comes from an AFL supporter and their “rose cloured” Melbourne media.

Have no fear rugby league will not die,and fantastically entertaining games such as seen on FTA live last night the Broncos v Parramatta at Suncorp stadium, will help ensure it doesn’t.Throw in the thousands of volunteers,and the growth of the game throughout Australia,and now getting into the Tiwi Islands,the positives far outweigh the negatives,which this originator of the thread intended to show.

By: Paul

Paul — Sat, 31 May 2008 00:09:36 +0000

Red B,

I know this is a Rugby thread, but I liked your comments and wanted to respond to them.

1) I think you are wise in saying that a Sydney team should be well established before entering the top 18. Whether that is in 2015 or not is another question. But 2012 may be a little early considering it is a year after Gold Coast.

2) I don’t think Melbourn FC will ever die. They have too many ultra wealthy supporters. If the club were on the verge of collapse another “Joseph Gutnick” would come out of the wood work. But there can be no doubt that they need to restructure. There needs to be a way to get Melbourne supporters who are only MCC members to become members of the Melbourne FC. That’s a tough one and I can’t think of any solutions.

3) If North Melbourne were gallant or foolish enough to turn down $100 million, then perhaps they know something we don’t and they will survive in Melbourne. The more the population grows in Melboure, the easier it will be for them to survive.

So, I don’t actually see that any Melbourne clubs are in financial danger at all.

Compare this to Rugby League, and I would say the cracks in League are quite large.

By: Redb

Redb — Wed, 28 May 2008 22:58:12 +0000

Crosscoder,

I don’t support the statement that rugby league will be the first code to crack.

However, your line of defense is attack other codes, 4 Melb AFL clubs in trouble?? – you know little of the game in Melbourne, there is one club (Melb FC) that is in immediate trouble/danger that is losing money fast – not 4 or 5 like the Sydney NRL clubs. The AFL has a governing body that is in a much healthier financial position to support its clubs and work through difficulties, there will be pain and eventually a reduction of 1 or 2 AFL clubs in Melboure in the next decade. The AFL offered North Melb $100 million to relocate, the NRL is offering $8m to merge or relocate- a reflection of the relative financial strength of AFL v NRL. So before you even attempt to suggest that AFL is in the same boat as the NRL you better stop as your wrong.

I didn’t see the 60 minutes story, but managed to find the transcript. It appears pro AFL and this from the host NRL broadcaster – incredbile don’t you think. No one can accuse Ch 9 of bias in this regard. perhaps also a reflection of their want to bid for the next AFL TV rights – yes that $1 billion is almost in the bank. I don’t mean for this to sound arrogant but many RL posters have claimed the AFL will have no chance at getting an increase in its TV rights – well you just saw what Ch 9 think about the western Sdyney expansion – they gave it a fluff piece. By the way, that doesn’t change the fact that the AFL should postpone Western Sydney in my opinion, let the junior programs and leagues, and schools take hold for another 2-5 years and introduce the team in 2015. Of course unless there is strong evidence of substantial growth.

I’ve been reading the Daily Tele (News Ltd) on a regular basis and its wall to wall rugby league (it does own the product), so I wouldn’t have a go at Sydney media. what i find interesting is that a blog writer Barry Dick keeps saying Andrew Demetrious is out to kill rugby league – he has never said that to my knowledge – yet this bloke and others portray it as gospel. Fox’s the Back Page has gone feral in its Anti-AFl stance if this weeks show is anything to go by. – again its News Ltd.

I don;’t want rugby league to die, I think the Leichart game West Tigers v Titans last weekend was great – good on ‘em.

Redb

By: Crosscoder

Crosscoder — Wed, 28 May 2008 21:32:27 +0000

Eamonn.
The first code to crack ,you say rugby league,check all around you.4 AFL clubs in Melbourne are facing financial problems,apart from the financial problems of Sydney NRL clubs.The NBL clubs Kings and Bullets stand on the verge of extinction.The S14 team the Force in Perth,have a major sponsor gone bust owing millions and some of that team’s players looking for an out.S14 clubs in NZ at least 3 having real financial problems.

As Westy stated the surprise package for pay Tv has been the under 20 Toyota cup rugby league ,which has exceeded expectations for Fox,and has ratings matching S14 and HAL.
Rugby league clubs have at least a choice if they fear extinction.
1) relocation: Central Coast,Perth who continue to push for a team,a 4th Qld team in Brisbane or Wellington NZ (the latter where a Belgian billionaire wants to set up a team_the Orcas).
2) A couple of clubs already are looking at development proposals(Cronulla has a DA approval for use of its freehold land,and is looking at various models).
3) Mergers a last resort perhaps,but in the case of the Wests Tigers has been a resounding success.This club only relies on $500,000 pa from poker machine taxes from 3 licensed clubs,and has sponsorship in place $5m with merchandise sales skyrocketing.
4) As stated Melbourne(Storm) expect to be financially independent in 2009) with sponsorship which is hampered with Olympic Park and increased membership.The Storm already have 7 Victorian home grown juniors in the under 20 teams and the Storm predict more next year.
5)The next Tv contract provided they have spread to Perth and the CC,should be further increased,with the under 20 cup as a further leverage.At the moment Fox pays a pittance for the under20 comp,as it was in the embryonic stage.Fox TV certainly know which code supplies their bread and butter.
6)Streamlining the administration to just the NRL not the various RLs (duplicating) and increasing costs.
7) The NRL clubs have only just started the membership drive,that is an unknown which can be exploited.

There are quite a few safety nets for rugby league ,for a worst case scenario,which may or may not be available to other codes.The offer of $8m to relocate to Gosford(which has a huge junior base) is not the maximum figure,Gallop has stated openly an increase would be considered if a team wanted it.Some reports stated $10m.

BTW according to David Gallop,sponsorship throughout rugby league is at record levels.
The Super league war cracked and divided rugby league and almost killed it.The fact it failed to do so,and the game now has more participants than ever,its Tv ratings among the best its ever had,ditto crowds ,the Titans are a raging success,suggest your ” first to “crack” statement for rl is a tad premature.The code has proved itself as John O”Neill from the ARU noted” the most resilient of all football codes in this country”.

The Sydney media(what is their agenda) have been death riding rugby league on quite a few occasions this year.Yes there are finance problems due to poker machine tax,but please some comments have been out and out lies or screwing of the truth.A couple involving my club not the Knights.We had one soccer writer praise the averages of the Newcastle Jets saying the Knights wouldn’t get 17,000.They have been cracking around 20,000 on a regular basis this year.Then we had Tim Morrissey talking about the AFL having the Marn Grook (spelling) indigenous show on Fox ,as a real show rather than the uncouth Footy shows of Sydney and Melbourne,conveniently omitting the indigenous Bare foot Rugby league show also on Fox.Then we are given the most blatantly biased 60 minutes report(on the AFL assault on Sydney) last sunday evening,and I have been watching that show for decades .
Guess what! like a marathon runner rugby league keeps on plugging away.

By: westy

westy — Wed, 28 May 2008 11:46:17 +0000

Eamonn…….league will not crack. The Sydney Kings and the Brisbane Bullets are insolvent with no buyers. Contrary to reports the league U/20′s pay tv is doing nearly as well as HAL on Pay TV. Any code that has a private 8 million offer to relocate to Bluetongue is hardly in trouble. As you point out Perth is open to league at least having some junior structure. . The problem is 9 franchises in Sydney. This needs to be restructured . Unlike the super league war the NRL will let market forces determine this one. Hal is developing nicely and a 2nd division comp could be a real winner. As you are aware Blacktown Demons, Marconi etc are really struggling as they also followed league’s Leagues club model which was successful in the 1950′s,60′s,70.s 80.s but has now hit a wall. AFL has shown it is membership, business support and assets that now spell success eg interest in Telstra DOme. Collingwood’s direct ownership of quite a few hotels etc generating net pokie revenue of over 28 million also helps. League like the HAL franchises need to go to a new model membership focused and a drive to derive its true revenue worth based on real ratings. Getting rid of a cumbersome and expensive management structure NRL,ARL,QRL.NSWRL and better still getting back over 50 % of its revenue it loses to News LTD would help. Melbourne will breakeven in 2009 and the Cowboys have very active local offers. News now very m,uch derives a cash positive result from its 50 % ownership of NRL.

By: Eamonn Flanagan

Eamonn Flanagan — Wed, 28 May 2008 07:44:58 +0000

With the downturn in the economy, it’s not a great time to be expanding for any code. Can’t see interest rates coming down anytime soon. And surely discretionary spending will impact on attendances and revenues across the country in all sports in the next couple of years.
Seems despite some people’s thoughts on here Rugby League is indeed the first code to crack. If reporting your historic clubs have major financial problems isn’t a crack then I don’t know what is.
League might be the first code to crack, but in a small market (20 mill) it won’t be the last. Basketball is struggling. The Jets and Perth Glory continue to ship the owners money and another poor season for The Glory could see football cracking as well before too long.
To the League fans all I can say is “you will not be alone.”

By: Midfielder

Midfielder — Wed, 28 May 2008 02:29:39 +0000

I think you are right …………… more importantly it shows the value of a broad based junior league. AFL, NRL & Football have these Union a shadow of the others …………….. Basketball has less than union.

Big lesson there for all, Tennis also has ignored its junior base for years and still does by and large, and look were they are today.

By: Michael C

Michael C — Wed, 28 May 2008 02:17:51 +0000

Is the NBL basketball perhaps the first code to crack.

the Brisbane bullets are on the verge of collapse:
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23768236-10389,00.html

as are the Sydney Kings who contested the GF this year.

The NBL – after all, is the main ‘head to head’ competition that the HAL has over summer for regular fixtured weekly matches.

and, the NRL – after all – - it’s really the issue of the pokies tax, that has been lurking for several years now – - that is the main crack – - NOT soccer, NOT the AFL, NOT John O’Neill or the cash poor struggling ARU.

By: NUFCMVFC

NUFCMVFC — Sat, 24 May 2008 10:13:43 +0000

hmmmm…I’m not sure about “crack” so to speak, but I think they will ahve to facilitate necassary moves a lot quicker, that is the reduction of NSW teams and a lsight expansion or shift to try and get some kind of presence in Perth And Adelaide and a diversification of revenue streams outside of League clubs, things people seem to have been talking about for some time but which will finally be squeezed into fruition. I don’t think League will “crack” in the sense that it will die, but it will have to go through some awkward changes and there may be a few awkward years. The game seems to be very healthy in Queensland, so there will clearly be a shift in the balance of power and a lot fo the cultural norms/traditions that have come about when the balance fo power was entrenched in Sydney. They may even have to start seriously speaking of NRL Grand Finals at Suncorp, especially iF AFL were to buy ANZ stadium as has been mooted

I think with this sort of thing people are looking at things from the perspective of old rules to the Sporting landscape, when a lot of the old ways of looking at things are becoming obsolete, also a change from. In a lot of the reading I have done, I have often come across something approaching a consensus that League is generally a better product for TV, which firstly means it will always be of some kind of appeal to broadcasters and so even if the value does experience a drop of some kind due to digital roolouts and changes in viewing patterns and how value is determined, it will perhaps always be worth a bit. Seems that Union have more struggles, given Time Zone issues with a number fo the Super 14 matches, and the fact that there are rule change issues and the game is being talked of as bland and unexciting

Things are changing, and there will be a climax of sorts it seems from early to next decade, depending on the nature of TV rights deals, the fallout in regards to viable expansion and yotuh participation demographics

By: chas

chas — Wed, 21 May 2008 07:08:25 +0000

Eamonn:

You’re still writing rubbish!!!!!!!! Have you no sense of history?

By: Towser

Towser — Wed, 21 May 2008 03:40:40 +0000

Eamonn

Well I guess time will be the judge. I think I may have overlooked the point of the expansion plans of other sports. I was only judging from the status quo remaining.
But from a football perspective were in a very different enviroment to where we were 3 years ago( Asia) so our growth is not solely reliant on happenings within this country.

By: Eamonn Flanagan

Eamonn Flanagan — Wed, 21 May 2008 03:24:18 +0000

Towser, why can’t the status quo remain?

An interesting point but I guess my response is no code is looking to remain as they are. Not Union, League AFL and certainly not newcomer Football.

Given that all codes are hell bent on reaching newer markets while holding what they have, and then throw in the Prime Minister supported new football into all of that, change is inevitable. There is only so many people in the country who want to go to a game each and every week, of any code. The fight is on. Resources are always tight. Pokie rules, TV revenue, household budgets, crowds etc can all effect a club or a code.

We can always, and always will have four codes but the status code cannot remain. That much is clear. The shake out may be a long way off, but the next ten years will see many changes. In number of teams. Where they play. And the format of competitions.

By: Towser

Towser — Wed, 21 May 2008 02:57:10 +0000

Eamon

Why cant the status quo remain?. The boundaries are set traditionally for other sports,they do best within those boundaries . So RL retains its strength within QLD/NSW etc.
Football has no boundaries only the ones set by itself due to poor administration or poor playing standard(judged by Overseas standards).
Personally I dont care which code is best its in the eye of the beholder anyway . Football is enough to keep me satisfied. All I know from 40 years experience is that football has got its act together. Now it has it will be dragged up by the AFC(only today they announced a set of criteria for countries to enter the ACL- only 11 are in at the moment-see the AFC website as links dont seem to work when I put them in ie I lose the post).
So money under the professionalisation of Asian football may come from TV rights & sponsorship outside this country in the long term anyway. Which means that sports like Rugby League can still have some of the cake in Australia without affecting footballs growth at least.
How much is up to their administration.

By: Eamonn Flanagan

Eamonn Flanagan — Wed, 21 May 2008 02:17:27 +0000

Towser

Football is on the rise. Don’t think any sports fanwould disagree. And in Australia do we really have room for four codes of football?

Yes of course we do. But not in their present form surely. Some codes will expand, or close in some areas and move to other areas. Indeed football could struggle. If we don’t make the next World Cup there could be less growth even a drop off in interest and support.

There is only so much sponsorship, tv, and crowd interest for sport and for each of the individual codes.Many fans will follow the big games for each code. Some like me will be rusted on to one code.
The changes that will occur, be it another A-League team, another Super 14, AFL or League side will have impact on other codes. And the reverse is also true.

Sport in Australia is full of passion. But fans also enjoy the debate, well apart from J Ryan and S Kaless, which code is best, which code will grow or whatever.
No code will die, but all have huge challenges to maintain the growth they all love to throw at us.

St Kilda for the AFL, Raiders to make the top 8 and Brumbies to win…next year!