By Midfielder
May 16th 2008 @ 12:16am
Loading ...The rise of football: who has it hurt?
Historically, football in Australia has sat in strange position. It’s the most international of all the games, with football first, daylight second, and union third.
It has by far the most number of players, and it’s by far the most diverse in regards to cultural support. Yet, until recently, it’s been a bad joke.
With football rejecting its recent past and becoming more mainstream, has it hurt any other code? And is the football code war real or imaginary?
My belief is that management decisions are, by and large, what affects the success of a sport.
By its own hand, in 1955 football choose to set up a new competition which, in time, lead to many of the division of top clubs being of an ethnic origin. The management of old soccer is legendary for being corrupt, hopeless, and inept.
But did this total mismanagement of football mask many other sports and codes failures as it was easy to look and point at football? Thus was borne the assumption that they (other sports) were being well run.
I believe football was such an easy target. Accordingly, very poor management practices by other sports were often overlooked and the good work by the old football heads was also overlooked.
In my opinion, tennis has been the most poorly run sport in Australia.
Tennis in the 1950s was arguably Australia biggest sport. It was played year round, and was a social event for boys and girls to meet at: the Davis Cup, the Australian Open.
On almost every street there was a tennis court. My grandparents could talk at length about which player has a good backhand or was a serve and volleyer, and so on.
Today, tennis courts are rare and few people play at a serious level. Even fewer could discuss the relative strengths and skills of a tennis player.
Tennis looked to the national players and ignored its local courts and clubs. Thus tennis finds itself in a strange position of having an almost unaffordable junior league needing fanatical parents and supporters prepared to take their kids all over the state to play.
Union, well what more can be said of the NSWRU and the ARU, other than that around the world, rugby as a code is expanding, yet in Australia it is declining. Where do you start? Concord oval and the Mac bank, the inability to spread its playing base outside private schools and state academically advanced schools in Sydney and Brisbane.
Has football turning mainstream hurt anyone or is it more that the weaknesses in other codes are being exposed?
My observations are that league, union and AFL all benefited from the 1955 mistake of football, allowing each to develop a loyal media support, without any real contest from football.
Rugby League then gave all the other codes a free kick with its Super League war. It was sitting at the top, with 21 teams and making real inroads in Western Australia and South Australia, not to mention Fiji and other Pacific islands. Then News and Optus had their little set to. Football was incapable of reacting still in its declining years, while both union and AFL attacked and made lots of ground.
After the war, the ARL made in my opinion the second worst management decision in Australian sports history (only football’s 1955 club split was worst) by giving News half of the TV media deals. This now has the ARL needing to get News to approve its own expansion plans.
Kerry Packer loved league with a passion and made it work. Now Kerry Packer is gone and his son James seems to want to leave the media. Kerry Packer has been replaced by Kerry Stokes who has a passion for the AFL in a similar way that Packer had with league. Thus, AFL has a sugar daddy prepared to spend big to support the code.
The AFL has been caught resting on its laurels with massive TV deals, a media baron backer, the Super League war, and so on. The success of the Gold Coast Titans has rushed the AFL into a decision making process about their expansion plans that only time will tell if it was correct. Maybe the media companies forced their hand on the expansion with the need for more exposure in the northern states for increased funding.
So I believe that football going mainstream in itself has hurt no other code or is a threat to any other code. However, by football becoming more accepted, past management practices which were previously able to be smudged over, no longer worked.
While the sports can co-exist happily, the winner of the codes will be that which best manages it’s own path.
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(84)
Salvation said | May 16th 2008 @ 7:38am | Report comment
Nice read.
Redb said | May 16th 2008 @ 8:02am | Report comment
Midfielder,
It is straight out wishful thinking to contend that due to soccer dropping the ball in 1955 it gave the VFL in Melbourne a free kick with the media. The VFL was getting crowds in excess of 70,000 in the 1930s!
Redb
Midfielder said | May 16th 2008 @ 8:31am | Report comment
Redb
AFL has always had crowds and if that is the yard stick you measure all codes then without doubt AFL is close to the worlds best.
But during the 60’s with 3 commercial TV channels, league on one, union on one and the new boy ten looking around for something to put on. Also not long after WSC, a certain Mr Packer offered the then NSL a massive package if he had ten teams and start from scratch not to different to the A-League now. They told him to FO they LOL could do it better.
So yes AFL has always had crowds but that is not the only measure.
Redb said | May 16th 2008 @ 9:28am | Report comment
Midfielder,
I guess the point about crowds is that it generally equals public support. The VFL attracted media due to interest in the game as reflected by crowds. The very early history of Australian football in Melbourne was played out in the media, from the first letter by Tom Wills wishing to establish a game of football in 1858.
I’m not speaking for other codes, just pointing out that Aust football was up and going well and truly by 1955 and was a already a big paper seller back in the ‘day’.
There are more significant decisions in Australian sport amongst the choice of particular States and their football code of choice that date back well before 1955. Som examples, would be the NSW rugby administrators in the early 1900s choosing rugby football over Australian rules and Victorian adminsitrators protecting Aust Rules in Victorian schools from rugby. This all happened a century ago.
Redb
Midfielder said | May 16th 2008 @ 10:38am | Report comment
Rebd
We agree on most here, but AFL crowds support is unique in the world, few sports come close to AFL attendences and NONE given how many teams Melbourne, so without doubt the AFL is the best attended sport in the world. But that is not the only measure.
Also to say that by football, own superleague type war, that had it banned from all FIFA events, and had many teams based on race had no harm is foolish. It caused massive harm. Its football greatest cross to bear.
Lazza said | May 16th 2008 @ 11:56am | Report comment
Rebd, crowd attendances are important but with professional sport it’s all about TV Ratings. No competition can survive without TV money. The German Bundesliga gets bigger crowds than the EPL but can’t match the enormous worldwide TV audience the EPL attracts.
AFL is still weak in 55% of the country and won’t get a Billion dollar contract unless it can substantially improve ratings up there. Hence the rush for expansion.
Midfielder, after Football and daylight the next biggest team sport in the World is basketball.
Midfielder said | May 16th 2008 @ 12:34pm | Report comment
Lazza
Sorry you right on the basketball, did not include was in the main talking about football codes.
Redb said | May 16th 2008 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
Lazza,
I was specifically commenting on Midfielder’s comments re soccers’ lack of influence on the media and football code worship by media, circa 1955 and onwards.
The second part of Midfielder’s article more relates to the last 10 years and the future. The AFL faces challenges in its new markets as does the NRL in its non traditional markets. If you were to compare, the AFL is further down the road of true national exposure than the NRL.
But make no mistake, the value of AFL is still very much linked to its mass popularity in the Melbourne market, which is less than 10% smaller than Sydney but may actually be a bigger sports TV market. Crowds and TV ratings are as one in terms of magnitude in Melbourne. The AFL is also the clear dominant player in Perth and Adelaide.
The NRL has Sydney and Brisbane but not to itself like the AFL has in Adelaide and Perth.
If you take the head to head matches in Brisbane a month ago when the top of the table Broncos played the Cowboys at Suncorp v Bris Lions and Hawthorn at the gabba. The NRL crowd was a sellout at 50,000, with the Lions getting circa 33,000. The TV ratings showed a clear win to the NRL but the ratio of total viewers was about 75:25 audience share NRL to AFL.
Contrast this to non traditional NRL market of Melbourne. The audience share is 0 :100 NRL to AFL, as the NRL never goes head to head with the AFL. Now its likely that if it did there would be some NRL audience, but I bet the ratio is nowhere near 25% of the TV audience and its zero in Adelaide and Perth.
In Sydney the Swans may have 15% against the NRL 85%, feel free to dispute that, but I think that’s about right.
The TV deal will be done on the capital city market. in this the AFL has all capitals vovered to varying degrees, the NRL has two with perhaps a third if they ever go head to head, my guess is that any new NRL TV deal, the NRL will require this, but by then Ch 9 may have won back the AFL. Who knows what will happen then.
So i wouldn’t be too so sure the AFL will not get its Billion dollar or whatever increase in dollars contract. The fact is western Sydney will take a decade to work, the deal will be done primarily on the Swans in Sydney. The new Gold Coast team and Brisbane provide definite immediate upside for the AFL.
You look at AFL through NRL NSW/QLD eyes and its comparitively weak position to NRL in those states and judge the AFl has no chance against he NRL based on its TV ratings performance in comparison . I look through VIC AFL eyes and can comment that the AFL has never been stronger in its heartland and offers massive market presence in 45% of the country, but has a small but significant share of the 55% when added on.
In any case, 750M to 1,000M is only about 30% after five years, inflation running at 4% is 20% of that. The AFL may only need a 10% real growth to get the $1B.
It’s all debatable.
Redb
Lazza said | May 16th 2008 @ 2:17pm | Report comment
Rebd, that’s all true and the AFL should be congratulated on it’s success but sponsors want NATIONAL coverage and value for money. The Swans and Lions get fair TV ratings up there, I don’t think they’ve been beaten by SBS’s Iron Chef for a while.
The problem is if you ever try to show say Port Power v Freo in those markets. You would probably be out rated by an Elvis Presley movie. When a sport gets good crowds but very modest TV ratings it confirms people’s thinking that it’s mainly the expats that are driving the sport up there. That’s why the Rugby codes haven’t faired as well down south, most of the internal migration in the last 40 years has been southerners going up north.
Lazza said | May 16th 2008 @ 2:39pm | Report comment
You are right Midfielder, all sports can co-exist. I don’t think things are going to change that much in the next few years. AFL will continue to dominate the southern winter market, NRL the northern winter market and football will continue with it’s steady progress in summer.
The only thing that will change is that a lot of aging baby boomers will die off and we won’t hear so much whinging about football.
Redb said | May 16th 2008 @ 2:49pm | Report comment
Lazza,
Freo v Port would not rate in Melbourne either. Friday or Saturday night games always feature Vic clubs (finals aside). The value is showing the home grown team in their home market that will appeal to the local fans of that club. If you can offer two local clubs instead of one, that will attract growth and produce derbies.etc. Each market offers big TV audeicnes, that is why is aid melb is still the msot improtant to the AFL, becuase anytime Collignwood, Essendon, Carlton, Richmond, H\awthorn play they get huge ratings in Melb and thus a big chunk of this got the $750M.
There is no doubt the AFL benefits from northern migration but not to the extent that would make much of a difference in crowds and TV ratings. For example, the Swans pulled 45,000 to the last game at ANZ against West Coast. Now your not telling me that most of the crowd were made up of expat Vics and WA folk surely. Last year the Swans pulled 60,000+ crowds three times.
I think the sisue is that the AFL has been longer at its expansion, has excellent junior programs and marketed the game fairly well in the eastern states. This is not AFL is better then NRL, but a reality. Despite some big mistakes with the Swans and Bris Bears in the first decade, the AFL perservered until they got it right ( a solid niche and presence).
My read of the Storm in Melbourne which i have expoused a few times, is that the Melb Storm has only really got its act together off the field in the last 2-3 years but still hasn’t quite got its PR machine working that well. Unlike the Swans who used icon players like Tony Lockett to get a high media profile, followed up by Big bad Bazza, Spida Everitt, none of the Storm players do any general media. They come across very reluctant to be here and it shows. (hold the weather jokes
)
you’d think as an NRL fan, that Billy Slater, Greg inglis, Folau would be superstars in sports mad Melbourne – their known but hardly in that category. No Storm games are shown live, no Storm games are shown head to head on a Friday night, Saturday night. Even the last Monday night game agaisnt the Knights was only available on Foxtel, they would have had the night to themselves.
So everytime an NRL fan jokes that Iron Chef is more popular than the Swans in Sydney I think the Storm don’t even out rate the test pattern in Melbourne.
The point for the AFL is at least the games are shown in the first place.
Redb
Lazza said | May 16th 2008 @ 3:31pm | Report comment
Didn’t know Vic’s were so parochial Rebd. All AFL games get good ratings in Adelaide with the Crows and Power obviously of most interest.
That’s when you know a game is truly National, you can show non local teams and still get healthy ratings. Basketball was not considered a major sport in the USA until the 1980’s because games would only get good ratings in their local market.
A certain Magic Johnson changed all that and Basketball became a truly national sport in the US.
Paul said | May 16th 2008 @ 3:58pm | Report comment
Sports by popularity ranking in the world. (my rough guess)
1) Soccer
AFL
2) Cricket
3) Baseball
4) Basketball
5) Rugby Union
6) Ice hockey
7) NFL
9) Rugby League
Other than than I don’t have anything to argue with. Midfielder, this was mostly an intelligent article. I would have to agree with Red B about your argument over the 1950s. I wonder why you haven’t offered anything this good on the debate about how big soccer is internationally. Still, I guess that is your prerogative.
Redb said | May 16th 2008 @ 3:59pm | Report comment
Lazza,
Basketball is huge in the States, my daughter has been offered a College scholarship to a New Hampshire university as they love junior Aussies do to work ethic and skills development even at 17 yrs Old. Apparently women’s basketball in the UA starts later at about 14, whereas our kids are running around from 9-10 years old.
Even College basketball games get 10,000 – now that’s parochial.
The Big V
Redb
Paul said | May 16th 2008 @ 4:14pm | Report comment
Red B,
Congrats on your daughter getting a scholraship, you must be tickled.
Paul.
Lazza said | May 16th 2008 @ 4:16pm | Report comment
Paul, Cricket may have India but that still leaves 80% of the World. Since we compete against nations not populations that means something like 95% of the World’s nations don’t play Cricket.
Basketball would be the 2nd biggest sport in the World. Crucially, all the World’s great sporting nations from the America’s, Europe and East Asia play the game. Only ex-empire nations play Cricket.
Paul said | May 16th 2008 @ 4:31pm | Report comment
Lazza,
Using your criteria I agree with you. It would be interesting to see how this changes in years to come with the injection of IPL money.
40/20 said | May 16th 2008 @ 5:05pm | Report comment
Paul how the hell do you end up having australian rules bigger than rugby league on a world scale
Apart from victoria sa and wa nauru where else are hotbeds for aussie rules compared to league
And basketball is bigger then cricket and baseball.
Midfielder said | May 16th 2008 @ 8:14pm | Report comment
Redb
Your comments about the future ………. the next ten years is going to be interesting.
AFL has over its history been very well run, yes there have been times when it could have been better run but never poorly run or even close to poorly. As an aside I think Jackson was perhaps the best ………… not saying AD is bad just think Jackson had something special.
But Jackson never had to deal with a well run football code, nor the contest for the big TV deal that’s taking place over the next few years. With League saying it’s bigger on all Australia count ——— don’t wish to debate this TV rating over who is right but that it must be very important given the attention the AFL & NRL are giving it.
IMO that code that best manages it’s own path will come out on top. Both Football and the AFL have very clearly defined plans about the next few years. I think NRL & ARU don’t have clear plans ……….. well what I can see anyway.
AFL to expand its northern presence via new teams in WS & GC, while trying to create an international profile of some kind as a buffer to a perceived weakness in the AFL armory.
Football to expand to 12 teams, create a women’s league & youth league, qualify for Asia & World cups, plus do well in Asian Club Champions League. This is a big ask and football to achieve its end is appealing to both AFL / NRL / Union fans to also watch football in summer. Risk Reduction is the fancy name for it but it is IMO a very clever bit of planning.
I have seen no such evidence from either the NRL or ARU to forward planning. As I mentioned in my article the NRL’s decision to have News as a 50% partner is causing real concern with the rusted on hard core leagueies as they feel the need to get News boards approval to do most things and from what I have seen that is not easy to get. Even Gallop is a former News employee.
The ARU …… can …. JOH ………… keep it at its current level and or have growth. To me it looks outside his control and will depend upon what NZ & SA unions feel about growing S14 at the expense of their local leagues. Years of inward looking thinking ( see management inward looking) are coming home to bite hard ——— number of juniors (real count not same player at school, local park team, attend skills training countered as 3), ——— quality of players they have compared to other codes. The more the Socceroos grow in stature the less the Wallabies brand can grow outside already existing fans.
Given my belief that management decisions and forward planning are the key to the future I think both the AFL and Football will grow, …………. As I see it due to an apparent lack of planning the NRL & ARU will be in decline.
Midfielder said | May 16th 2008 @ 8:35pm | Report comment
Lazza
Baseball 2 en biggest world sport …………… its big ………….. but number 2 ………… big call ………… I would have through Basketball, Tennis, Golf.
However it departs from my topic a tad, ………. regarding the importance of management in both growing a sport, and keeping a sport at its current level. Tennis was my example of a sport that had it all, courts everywhere, international matches, game played by man, women and even mixed. In the 50’s & 60’s with a steady stream of champion players what could go wrong. TBH I can never see Australia a power in Tennis agian its just a numbers game not enough quality people play it. IMO very poor management led to this.
Would be very interested on your comments about your views on past management decisions either good or bad and how they are playing out today, and what you think of the various sports forward planning.
Midfielder said | May 16th 2008 @ 8:36pm | Report comment
Lazza
Sorry forget to say I agree your comment about TV money and sport ………….. they are closely related.
Paul said | May 16th 2008 @ 9:59pm | Report comment
40/20
Calm down mate. Aggregate numbers. Simple.
Photon said | May 16th 2008 @ 11:14pm | Report comment
Lazza India has a Billion people, if you’re number one in India you are num,ber one in a country that has roughly a third of the worlds population So that figur alona already supercedes that 20% you refer to, when you add Bangladesh, Pakistan and so on Cricket ends up being a pretty big player and quite feasibly second!! Asfor Basket ball and Baseball coming before rugby, I need to google some stuff
Photon said | May 16th 2008 @ 11:28pm | Report comment
Soccer. 3.3-3.5 Billion Fans. (Europe, Africa, Americas,etc) 2) Cricket 3-3.3 Billion Fans. (India,U.K,Pakistan,Asia,Australia,etc) 3) Field Hockey. 2-2.2 Bilion Fans. (Asia, Europe, Africa, Australia) 4) Tennis. Around 1 Billion Fans. (Europe, Americas, Asia) 5) Volleyball Around 900 Million Fans. (Asia, Erope, Americas, Australia) 6) Table Tennis Around 900 Million Fans. (Asia, Europe, Africa, Americas) 7) Baseball Around 500 Million Fans. (U.S,Canada, Japan)
Golf Around 400 Million Fans. (U.S, Canada, Europe) 9) Football 390-410 Million Fans. (U.S, Canada mainly) 10) Basketball Not more than 400M Fans. (U.S, Canada mainly)
Wikepedia answers
Photon said | May 16th 2008 @ 11:31pm | Report comment
The worlds most popular sports
Golf Around 400 Million Fans. (U.S, Canada, Europe) 9) Football 390-410 Million Fans. (U.S, Canada mainly) 10) Basketball Not more than 400M Fans. (U.S, Canada mainly)
1) Soccer. 3.3-3.5 Billion Fans. (Europe, Africa, Americas,etc) 2) Cricket 3-3.3 Billion Fans. (India,U.K,Pakistan,Asia,Australia,etc) 3) Field Hockey. 2-2.2 Bilion Fans. (Asia, Europe, Africa, Australia) 4) Tennis. Around 1 Billion Fans. (Europe, Americas, Asia) 5) Volleyball Around 900 Million Fans. (Asia, Erope, Americas, Australia) 6) Table Tennis Around 900 Million Fans. (Asia, Europe, Africa, Americas) 7) Baseball Around 500 Million Fans. (U.S,Canada, Japan)
Dave said | May 16th 2008 @ 11:57pm | Report comment
Photon
Where do Cricket get 3 billion fans. There are only 1 billion in India and many of them dont care for Cricket. Aus has 20 million and they all dont like Cricket, Pakistan 165 million and they all dont follow Cricket, Sri Lanka 20 million and Bangladesh 150 million likewise, SA , Eng and WI have limited support for Cricket. Where else China?? Dont think so.
Paul said | May 17th 2008 @ 12:23am | Report comment
At last, some myopic cricket fans! Photon, I love cricket too, but I also find 3 billion an extremely wild fantasy. Dave and I would both be interested to see some real figures, wouldn’t we Dave? (You love figures right?) Really Photon, I would love it if you were right cos I could stick it to the soccer fans. So go on, prove it, you’ll make my day.
Paul said | May 17th 2008 @ 12:29am | Report comment
Photon ma man,
You lose points big time..
You said: “India has a Billion people, if you’re number one in India you are num,ber one in a country that has roughly a third of the worlds population”
Oops. You are way off.
Population India: 1,132,446,000
Population of the world: 6 706 852 000 (and counting)
That’s 16.88%, like I said, you are way off. I’m always looking to hear some interesting debate, but you have even more homework than Dave to do.
matta said | May 17th 2008 @ 9:49am | Report comment
mmmmm… this debate again….
Cant help but think 2 years ago the title would have been
The rise of Basketball: who has it hurt?
Answer 20 years on – no one
Midfielder said | May 17th 2008 @ 6:09pm | Report comment
Paul & Photon
Can I ask you …………. plead with you ……………. not to turn this thread into another this is why football is over rated and AFL / cricket should be more.
My guess is the guys running the Roar are trying to set up and independent media organisation and I want to support that in Australia because God Knows we need more voices.
Paul ………….. people are turning off this site …………… as constant dribble on the old same issues.
If you want a constant debate about sports perceptions ………… write a article submit it and take from there ………..
This is a thread about sports management pertaining to football codes in Australia.
Dave said | May 17th 2008 @ 8:11pm | Report comment
Dont know a great deal about 1955 however there is little doubt football in Oz had been fractured and diviided largely along ethnic lines for far too long. As stated good intentions but poor decsion making cost football many years in its attempts to become mainstream. There were obviously too many at the top who were looking after self interests. l am not able to comment on the Rugby’s through lack of knowledge but can comment on AFL. IMO once the game was up and running in Victoria it was able to thrive in a virtual vacuum environment with no real competition during winter months. Not sure that the VFL achieved any ground through footballs 1955 split as it was already dominant. VFL administrators had very little to do other than arrange the fixtures as the masses would turn up. There were some examples of foreward planning such as creation of VFL Park in the late 60s. However the VFL mamagement did not really have to earn their positions until the 1980s when through poor management at club level and little action at the top clubs started to go broke, grounds had been allowed to fall into disrepair and crowds were stable or falling. The decision to explore expansion was very important and came about around the time the NSL began. Once Sth Melb were sent to Sydenee the die was cast and VFL would never be the same. Up until then VFL had very little direct independent management as the clubs ruled the roost.
The fact that AFL is now the biggest and most successful of the codes has come about through lack of proactive management of the league up to the 70s and 80s which allowed the game to slip backwards. The crisis resulted in some excellent decision making and proactive foreward thinking.
Football meanwhile had opportunities to advance (NSL, WC 1974) but were too divided at the top. Their salvation also came out of a crisis where football was virtually on its deathbed. The decision making was taken out of its hands and thank goodness for that.
The only threat football poses to the other codes is their perceptions of it. Football will grow and hopefully thrive but in my lifetime will never reach no 1 in any of the states. However if it can become no 2 in all the states and territories that will be a remarkable achievement. The management structures and just as important, personnel in charge, appear good enough to guide the code through this period of growth. What a difference 5 years has made.
Midfielder said | May 17th 2008 @ 9:36pm | Report comment
Dave
I dare say already football is number 2 in SA, Vic, Tas, NSW & prehaps Qld, in WA close. It’s more about closing the gap between first and second.
Also about converting the two groups across to the A-league who are not there, those being football snobs who say European stadards for them to come and watch and second those AFL / NRL / Union followers who like sport and will follow the A-League as their summer sport.
Its a big job, as with little money they have to start up and run both the youth & womens league, get two maybe four A_league standard and al within a small budget compared to the other three codes.
The NRL have reacted to the AFL push with quite a strong rear guard action in WS, and it will be interesting to see. The A-league will have two teams, Wollongong & Far WS, the NRL have three / four teams, the old NSL has 4 teams still in state leagues.
Both the AFL & A-L, will have problems finding quality players to fill squads meaning keeping the best junior we have in football will be important, nay essential, other codes will as they have always done raid football looking for those they can convert. This will be the key IMO for football future.
In this regard the new international U 14 team will be good to keep the best 12 / 13 year old each year.
I have faith in FL & BB, and believe if they can hold everything together and grow even in a small way, the next TV deal will be huge, and then …………… we will start to demand respect ……….. and be very hard to ignore.
Paul said | May 18th 2008 @ 1:11am | Report comment
Midfielder,
Please, I was saying that Photon was being ridiculous.
Besides, do you have a problem with free speech?
sheek said | May 18th 2008 @ 8:55am | Report comment
Midfielder,
Good opening article. Forgive me for not reading each thread, but there’s too much “my dad’s better than your dad” stuff.
May I offer a variation on the thrust of your argument by saying – quality players make a sport, but inept administrators destroy it.
Your example of Australian tennis is frighteningly real. The there’s rugby league in the mid-90s. What happened to the basketball boom? Not to forget my beloved rugby union. After sitting at the top of the world in 1999, Australian rugby has been sliding downhill ever since.
I don’t know what the ideal parameters are for judging each sport’s popularity & health. Gate attendances, TV ratings, corporate sponsorship, merchandising sales, active players, etc are all important barometers.
Take the cricket argument as an example. I think I read recently that India had overtaken China as the most populous nation in the world. In any case, Cricket, while popular in India doesn’t necessarily translate as a popular game worldwide, because it’s popularity is concentrated.
Similar to the big US sports. But the US has a massive advantage as the most powerful economic, political & military country in the world. It’s culture, including sports, is imposed almost everywhere. Other nations mightn’t takeup American football or baseball, but they’re very aware of it.
Anyway, very thoughtful post, wish I could contribute better.
Midfielder said | May 18th 2008 @ 11:21am | Report comment
Sheek
Very insightful post, loved your comment “quality players make a sport, but inept administrators destroy it.”
I may steal that line in a speech I am giving shortly.
sheek said | May 18th 2008 @ 11:10pm | Report comment
Well, it came about a bit by accident.
I’ve been saying recently that every sport needs quality players to prosper & grow, or words to that effect. Then you said that management, by & large, affect the success of a sport. My subsequent comment evolved out of that.
I looked at rugby union. Australian rugby hit rock bottom in 1973 when it lost to Tonga. It was also virtually broke. The ARU, out of desperation, kick started a national coaching scheme, which bore extraordinary fruit over the next 25 years.
The administrators were competent, with the occasional brilliant one. But this was the amateur era, where the goodwill of generous benefactors, both money & time wise, played its part. By the 90s there was an amazing depth of quality talent.
Several good administrators culminated with John O’Neill, who was the high water mark of administrative brilliance. What happened post 2003, is what happens to so many sport. Hubris set in, over-confidence & complacency. The cumulative hard work of 30 years was unravelled in about 3-4 years!
I’ll give you another saying to consider. Sports administrators are a little like self-made millionaires & their family succession. The first administrator will create the success, the second will expand it, & the third will destroy it. It happened withAustralian rugby. It might be happening with the Packer dynasty.
It happened with Australian tennis, West Indies cricket, Australian rugby league (superleague – partially). In rugby league, a succession of great players over 50 years (since the end of WW2), made the code great, helped along by competent administrators, but the best they had were Ken Arthurson & John Quayle in the late 80s/early 90s.
Then along came another group of administrators who wanted the run the game for their self-interest (Newscorp). The game suffered a massive body blow from which it has slowly but steadily recovered.
So yeah, quality players make a sport, but inept administrators destroy it.
Savvas Tzionis said | May 19th 2008 @ 12:06pm | Report comment
Midfielder,
You are despicable.
You continue with this 1955 rubbish.
Guess what ‘mate’, the reason it happended was because us ‘wogs’ came here with our passion for the game whilst your anglo brethren did not give a rats bottom.
What did you expect us wogs to do back in 1955. Assimilate upon arrival and join existing teams?
You have to be joking.
Can’t wait for your next migrant bash.
Because thats the only way this vendetta of yours can be decribed.
Midfielder said | May 19th 2008 @ 12:42pm | Report comment
Savvas Tzionis
Where have you been ………… whats this “wog” tag you label me with.
What is the Anglo brethren stuff, football has been in Australia from about 1870 or earlier, it was not a game brought by post war “wogs”., they palyed and that was great they enriched and improved the standard. That those running the game in 1955 were at best poor.
But in 1955 an event did happen ……………. yes it did …………… what event ………….. and as I said not the intention of the planners but a number of the followers of some teams split aliong ethnic race. That was a very poor management decision and that is the context of the thread.
Also I ask you to name me one country that their top league is composed of by some teams based on race. In Europe any league South Amercia.
In fact the joy of football is that it is played by so many and in so many parts of the world.
I cannot see how I can state in 1955 this management decision was made ……………… this was the result ……….. Sorry how else do you explain it.
So when my son says Dad how come Australia was kicked out of FIFA for about 12 years, Dad why did the media only recently start talking about football.
Lazza said | May 19th 2008 @ 12:46pm | Report comment
Why isn’t the supposed 2nd biggest sport in the World part of the Olympics? You don’t have to be a big spectator sport to be included. You just need enough interested nations to win a vote on the IOC committee.
None of our traditional sports are part of the Olympics? I wish we would have a little more realism when it comes to our supposed ‘sporting prowess’. Lack of competition is the more probable answer. After all, most people would have included tennis a few years ago as a sport that we were ‘World Beaters’ at. What happened? Those pesky Europeans and Sth Americans started playing the game seriously and it has just become too competitive for us to dominate like we used to.
Midfielder said | May 19th 2008 @ 3:54pm | Report comment
Lazza
is tennis the second biggest sport, will take your word for it.
You are right the more something is played the harder it is to win ……… and as more nations play tennis the harder it will be.
However my point on tennis is that at one point in time, was the water cooler sport, in that like cricket is today people would say that player has a good back hand or is a net player and so on.
In my stett there was a tennis court, and there were heaps of back yard courts everyuwhere. Today just from what I see there are less courts in Sydney than 30 years ago.
Tennis has poorly looked after in juniors and local courts, where today …………….. I have no figures but I don’t know anyone who plays, never mind at a decent level. This is hurting tennis a lot, …………… however the extra have added greatly to TA problems. Thus with an expanding world game the not looking after juniors is worst.
Lazza said | May 19th 2008 @ 4:20pm | Report comment
Midfielder, my posts were making the point that just because Cricket has India it does not make it the 2nd biggest team sport in the World, far from it. Those 190 nations that aren’t competitve at Cricket are also NOT interested in Cricket. None of them would have a clue who Shane Warne is? If they were interested they would be able to beat Zimbabwe and Cricket would win an IOC vote and get included in the Olympics.
This is not having a go at other sports it’s as I said, just bringing a bit of realism into the debate.
I think we are probably both right about Tennis, lack of junior development and a vastly more competitive international arena.
Midfielder said | May 19th 2008 @ 5:21pm | Report comment
Lazza
Sorry no idea your last post was about cricket.
I agree all your points on cricket, especially on a world stage and maybe you were reacting to something that Photon was saying about cricket.
But this is way off topic, I guess I am talking about sports management decisions and how they affect those that play the game. Sheek said in a line that I plan to steal for myself that “quality players make a sport, but inept administrators destroy it.”
When I look at the NRL, they have to live with the decision of the management at the end of the SL war, which effectly has league in both Aust & Eng owened by a US media company. Thus future decisions are difficult to make as News have to agree.
Football has to live with its past, Union also for years of ignoring its park teams now needs quality players and they are simply not there.
So poor management in a sport can do damage to a sport, good management do help a sport.
NUFCMVFC said | May 19th 2008 @ 6:28pm | Report comment
Hard to say who it has hurt per se, seems we are seeing a weird re-shaping of the sporting landscape.
I would say the weekly competition during the summer and braoder appeal than the A League would have hurt Cricket, but for the IPL in some respects (just have to stop a culture of unviably ridiculous wages), with its capacity ofr high wages, may actually help save cricket, but we’ll probably see a change in the calendar, hard to tell exactly, we’ll probably still see Tests but the 50 over one dayers seem a bit under threat and that may be replaced largely by the bigger spectacle of country (Australia vs India etc) Twenty20 type. We may actually see a situation where it can become somewhat of a culture where people attend Test Cricket for a few hours and leave to watch the A League for a couple of hours or at night after it has become dark and they are still in the city and a general consensus can perhaps be reached between Football and Cricket to hold A LEague and Twenty20 in different days perhaps?
This is in their interest because as well as not only bigger crowds for both there will be higher TV ratings for both which means they can both argue for a larger piece of the TV revenue pie. With the IPL becoming bigger, the irony is that this coincides with the AFL and Rugby seasons, though fortunately for them it is on at awkward hours of the night, nonetheless a culture will be emerging where things are no longer AFL/NRL in the winter and Cricket in the Summer type thing, and with the digital rollout with multi-channeling and parallel view type cpacacities the rules of TV will change. Football and Cricket benefit from this as they generally have the lower operating costs (Crickets costs will become more largely paid by Indians) and so they aren’t in a situation where they NEED to get a certain amount in order to break even, unlike AFL which have very large opertaing costs (relatively speaking) and higher attendances for clubs to look respectable.
Don’t forget the ACL as well, no direct clash with AFL/NRL due to it being midweek, kids play football in winter, Australia (A League) is likely to have 4 reps, same with K League, Chinese Super League and J League, so more games among important trading partners in high quality stadiums against “well packaged” teams, this comp will be taken more seriously with furher refining by AFC and actual prize money, all with big popn’s meaning no matter what there will be big TV audiences for matches, even if the Australian audience isn’t as big as that for some NRL/AFL or Cricket games or whatever, the total audience when you include the international dimensions will be very significant, in some respects the numbers will be in a different stratosphere to that of AFL and NRL. John O’Neill recognises this which is why ARU is trying to woo Asia in some respects, but they can’t go as far as Football can
This is not including the Socceroos, who will from this point on always play on a semi regular basis, often during our winter, whether it is high drawing WCQ’s, or Asian Cup Qualifiers. The good balance between high tier and medium tier countires we paly against, means we can move certain games for sellouts in the big cities, but there is also scope to move it to the more regional centres, like what will happen with Gold Coast. The overall TV viewing audience will be eye watering to NRL and AFL, even now, I am wondering how many people watched Australia vs China? Football will always be of value to sponsors, in some respects there is no real “off season” unlike AFL and NRL
ARU is in a sense kind of protected due to its international dimension, but at the same time it has let things slip at junior level and this will hurt it in terms of the Wallabies quality, but the IRB will not let Australia slip and will subsidise them if required. Generally ARU and Football have had a half respectable relationship, which will allow for co-operation
Overall I would have to say that Football will actually hurt the AFL the most, NRL, due to sharing similar shaped facilities, is in a position where it can change tac and cosy up to football for mutal benefit, Cricket and Football can develop a consensus and memorandum of understanding, but the TV broadcasting and sponsorship value, and the lower crowd and financial capital requirements (allowing for viable presence in regional areas) will weaken the hand of the AFL’s position the most, AFL has high operating costs to not only cater for, but to grow on, but the AFL is the least capable of nimbly adapting to the changing dynamics of TV and the Sporting culture of Australia, it has the least revenue streams to be able to tap into and TV broadcasters IMO will be in a position where they can pick and choose a bit better around 2012.
Football fortunes are no longer pegged to just what happens within Australia, at the same time, they have to ensure they are structured in such a way that while they can reap the benefits they can’t be damaged if there are any problems with the Asian economies and are insulated, keep things as light and nimble as possible and don’t become too much of a behemoth like the AFL, don’t raise salary cap too high and just ensure the development pathway is sound and secure to allwo for better retention of talented players/athletes
Redb said | May 19th 2008 @ 6:51pm | Report comment
NUFCMVFC,
And wonder AFL folk msut speak up with posts like this.
Yes the AFL is doomed you say.
IPL will eat into AFL support – how do you justify that remark alone? Its just wishful thinking.
You forget that AFL fans are pretty well rusted into their clubs. Club memberships which support not only gate receipts, but also sponsorship and TV following for those who cannot attend. There is powerful emotion behind club support that compels many AFL fans to watch their team you don’t just switch it off, certainly not in 4-5 years
For the AFL to lose market share in its traditional home you would need to provide a better product to watch. Now i’m not saying that AFL is the superior sport product in this country, but we AFL fans judge all others in comparison. A diet of fast flowing and high scoring, no offside, aerial nature of the game ,etc, means other sports are too slow, have too many stoppages, are too one dimensial, go backwards, low scoring,etc.
Many AFL fans have taken an interest in Melb Victory, very few have totally discarded their AFL club in the process.
I know many soccer fans think the world game’s audience of itself makes it a better game to watch, but I can tell you the most keenly anticipated match in Melbourne is Round 17 Geelong v Hawthorn July 25. Melb Victory’s next ACL game or the one against Juventus is novelty interest at best to the majority.
Just some opinions to counter the wishful thinking.
Redb
Midfielder said | May 19th 2008 @ 7:53pm | Report comment
Redb
I don’t think NUFCMVFC was saying AFL and doomsday and failure, more we are in a changing sporting environment ……… I also believe IPL ……….. will change things especially in cricket …………. I also feel the A-League will bring a different sports product with the ACL matches being mid week, thus not taking on either the AFL or NRL and sets up nicely in the future a FA cup mid week type comp between A-Leagues teams and State league teams (the FA style is a while off but my guess less than 10 years).
I also see the point he makes about product variation, the AFL has a team comp, final series, State of Origin, and test match with changed rules for Ireland. Other codes have more products, football most of all, Women’s League, Olympics men’s & women’s, International matches, WCQ M & W, WC itself for M & W, ACQ M & W, AC M & W, A-League, ACL, International friendly matches. In this sense football has a lot of bits in its armoury, and in most cases in no direct contest with either the AFL or NRL so it can increase its revenue stream. All of the above comes down to management tho, can FL & BB hold it all together over the next five or so years.
The AFL is in such a powerful position in Melbourne ……….. no body will ever come close to the support it has. However the A-League is also being shown and rating as I understand it rating reasonably well in Singapore, Malaysia & Indonesia, thus adding additional future revenue streams. The key reason given for the A-l rating in these countries is that it is live and in their Prime Time viewing whereas European leagues are all on the same as here in the early morning.
Thus the variety of product / plus exporting to other countries (Socceroos rate very high in NZ & PNG Why don’t know) .
Whether this affects the AFL is questionable, as given the two codes in most markets and nights played, are not in a head to head then both will be paid for their viewers.
NUFCMVFC your point on Union is interesting and one I had not given credit to before. Would the international union board let or could they afford for Australia to fall over. Again fall over is emotive language and perhaps to strong, but it is a very interesting question.
But I do agree with you strongly with we are in a changing sports environment, including future broadcasting i.e. internet by phone company or FTA, good management is needed.
NUFCMVFC said | May 20th 2008 @ 9:27am | Report comment
RedB
Midfielder is generally correct, it is not “having a go” as such, many fans attend both which is all good and fine. Before the IPL I would have said Cricket is hurt the most, with Rugby Union second, but it is generally a comment geared around the rise or rather proper management (mostly) of football coinciding with a shift in the dynamics and nature of the Australian Sporting environment, with a change in how broadcast value is determined.
AFL has less tactical options than the other codes, partly because of its success, ie so much money has flowed in that player salaries etc have risen and there is a higher average crowd and broadcast ratings required to be deemed respectable in other Sports.
Can’t see AFL “dying” ever or really being surpassed within Victoria itself (in total terms), however its ability to be able to really expand successfully into the Northern States and really assert its presence is open to question because of the huge costs and cultural challenges that would be involved, they would need not only to repeat theri massive TV deal, but expand on it considerably, idespite the $1 Billion talk s that really going to be achievable in 2012? Hard to tell because TV will be very different and the dynamics and viewing patterns that will determine how value is calculate is unknown, and with all the expansion going on there won’t really be any shortage of TV Sporting content to choose from, meaning broadcasters market. Timeslots etc aren’t the issue, there isn’t really that much competition (just tail ends of Football and AFL seasons), the question is of total broadcasting revenue that each Sport is able to acquire
In another respect, Rugby Union has been hurt, but by football or by itself? They have a real challenge in the grassroots aspect now
Midfielder said | May 20th 2008 @ 11:57pm | Report comment
Well after today FL management skills when up a tad higher
Prime Minister on ABC news
Standing with Frank Lowy and Harry Kewell, prime minister Kevin Rudd said
” We intend to take this code of football to the next level in mainstream Australia ” Other codes will have to take a back seat as we bid for the world cup ” end of quote Hope I got it right . One hell of a statement
In a article the PM then said all sports were to be treated fairly
Rudd denies playing favourites with soccer cup bid
http://www. abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/20/2250661.htm?section=sport
Prime Minister Kevin Rudd says the Government will give all football codes in Australia the same support.
Mr Rudd met members of the Socceroos and Matildas squads in Sydney today to confirm his support for an Australian bid for the 2018 World Cup.
He will also meet a delegation of executives from football’s world governing body in Sydney next week.
But Mr Rudd says he is not favouring one code over the others.
“We’ve got a huge challenge ahead which is to get behind soccer for the 2018 World Cup,” he said.
“We know that there are particular development needs that are associated with this game, but when it comes to the other football codes let me tell you we have other things planned as well.”
Considerable investment is needed to bring Australia’s facilities up to the standard required to host a World Cup.
But Mr Rudd says he will do whatever he can to help Football Federation of Australia Chairman Frank Lowy secure the tournament for Australia.
“This will be a marathon of all marathons, it is going to be tough as hell,” he said.
“But our approach, together with Frank’s, is you’ve got to be in it to win it, and if we want the best for this game for the future then bringing the World Cup to Australia’s the way to go.”
Midfielder said | May 20th 2008 @ 11:59pm | Report comment
FL and management skills see below, never before would I have ever had a dream about this.
Prime Minister on ABC news
Standing with Frank Lowy and Harry Kewell, prime minister Kevin Rudd said
” We intend to take this code of football to the next level in mainstream Australia ” Other codes will have to take a back seat as we bid for the world cup ” end of quote Hope I got it right . One hell of a statement
Then on ABC online article it said:-
Rudd denies playing favourites with soccer cup bid
Prime Minister Kevin Rudd says the Government will give all football codes in Australia the same support.
Mr Rudd met members of the Socceroos and Matildas squads in Sydney today to confirm his support for an Australian bid for the 2018 World Cup.
He will also meet a delegation of executives from football’s world governing body in Sydney next week.
But Mr Rudd says he is not favouring one code over the others.
“We’ve got a huge challenge ahead which is to get behind soccer for the 2018 World Cup,” he said.
“We know that there are particular development needs that are associated with this game, but when it comes to the other football codes let me tell you we have other things planned as well.”
Considerable investment is needed to bring Australia’s facilities up to the standard required to host a World Cup.
But Mr Rudd says he will do whatever he can to help Football Federation of Australia Chairman Frank Lowy secure the tournament for Australia.
“This will be a marathon of all marathons, it is going to be tough as hell,” he said.
“But our approach, together with Frank’s, is you’ve got to be in it to win it, and if we want the best for this game for the future then bringing the World Cup to Australia’s the way to go.”
True Tah said | May 21st 2008 @ 10:56pm | Report comment
NUFCMVFC,
I don’t see any reason why the IRB should step in to save Australian rugby (and saying that as an Australian rugby fan!) – there are far more countries out there much more deserving and where rugby is actually growing (Georgia, Madagascar, Kenya, Moldova, India). The well-documented problems in Aussie rugby are not due to soccer, AFL or league, the problems can be attributed to the amateur management we have running our game, particularly here in NSW!
I think Michael C will agree with me, in that neither the NRL or AFL should give up their games for the Soccer World Cup (and neither should the ARU if we have a proper season running by 2018 or are still existent), if Australia will get it (I dont think we will though). The AFL is the only professional comp in the World for Australian Football, why should they give it all up for a rival code? From memory the Yanks didn’t give up their native games back in 1994.
Midfielder said | May 22nd 2008 @ 12:07am | Report comment
True Tah
I believe we are kinda like soul brothers………… I blame most if not all / nay most of the old soccer problems on past management practices and the newly found success on good management.
Would be interesting to see your ideas on miss management in rugby. IMO I have often said it is at park rugby level and the clash between private schools and local park clubs is the key ( experienced 8 years of this with my son at my local club). My reasoning solve the issue giving park rugby weekends rights over private school rugby also solves the expanision of rugby in Australia can take place without prefence to already existing often broken clubs and broken management systems.
Paul said | May 23rd 2008 @ 3:54pm | Report comment
I have said it before and I will say it again.
It would be wrong of anyone to demand that the other 3 football codes suspend their seasons for a world cup to be held. This leaves a potential 2018 world soccer cup in Australia two options:
1) Build enough stadiums to not clash with the other 3 codes.
OR
2) Play the world cup during the Australian soccer season.
As to why Kevin Rudd should favour soccer over the other codes, this is not very egalitarian, not giving all a “fair go” and therefore un-Australian. He has some serious thinking to do about his role as Prime Minister. He was elected to serve the Australian people. not to dictate to us.
Lazza said | May 23rd 2008 @ 4:53pm | Report comment
Paul, it was Howard and the Liberals that starting favouring soccer. In 2002 they were wondering why the World’s biggest sporting event was hapenning in our backyard and we weren’t part of it?
They commisioned the Crawford report and the rest is history. It’s the same reason governments pour so much money into the AIS. None of our traditional sports are part of the Olympics but we want to make a splash on the World stage.
It’s only really thru sport that small nations like ours get any attention around the world, that’s why governments will always support the really BIG sports and sporting events.
Midfielder said | May 24th 2008 @ 12:33pm | Report comment
Paul
Small question of law. If AFL built and owned the stadiums then your point is right. But taxpayers money built most of the stadiums and the gov can hire out grounds to who ever they like.
The other codes can still play, but not in the stadiums they are use to. Alternatively the AFL could buy the MCG, Homebush Bay and so on. Then your are correct in saying why move, but until then accept that if the WC comes to Australia then gov will hire out stadiums to football. Its called the law.
In large letters Australian ” LAW”
Paul said | May 24th 2008 @ 12:54pm | Report comment
Midfielder,
A little explanation of “LAW” for you.
The AFL and NRL have long term contracts on those grounds, so legally they have the right to tell the government to stick it.
So it would probably pay to be a little nicer and stop assuming that soccer has a “right” to use those stadiums, and do a little more asking or plea bargaining.
Demanding is arrogance.
Paul said | May 24th 2008 @ 12:55pm | Report comment
P.S Midfielder,
I’m a tax payer too, so maybe the issue should go to referendum if we really want to be fair and democratic about this.
Paul.
Paul said | May 24th 2008 @ 12:58pm | Report comment
P.P.S Midfielder
The MCG is owned by the MCC, not by a government. Likewise the SCG by the SCC, and Football Park in Adelaide by the SANFL etc, etc.
NUFCMVFC said | May 24th 2008 @ 7:46pm | Report comment
I find it quite ironic that it is the AFL fan talking about a “fair fo” and arrogance
The world cup stadium issue is simply one of realising that the wolrd cup is in a position to bring quite a lot to a country, it’s arrogance on the part of AFL to think that they don’t have to budge because of their historical contempt and prejudice towards soccer/football, they did it for the Olympics and they can do it for the FIFA World Cup, which would bring more to the country in terms of sporting pedigree than anything else
The situation regarding the apparent AFL bid for Homebush is very interesting though, Rugby won’t like it, also illuminates a tactic where they try to buy up all the Sporting space and stadia to squeeze out competitors and no doubt charge high rates to others, there are more options open to the others though. Is quite bizarre when you consider they are willing to splash out $200 million (with Westpac), along with having to develop Carrarra,
To the Tah fan, I am thinking it is mostly about Rugby’s poor managment that is letting RU down, which I think is a bit of a pity as it is them who have generally been a bit more positively inclined towards football. Rugby League (and to a degree Union) though now needs football to help stave off the AFL’s imperialistic initiatives due to issues of dual use of facilities (rectangular stadiums), a lot will depend on the next cycle of broadcasting rights deals
NUFCMVFC said | May 24th 2008 @ 7:50pm | Report comment
Not to mention the audacity in complaining about Govt bias, Rudds the only Govt that has really looked warmly on Football, with Football often suffering prejudice, now that the shows on the other foot for a change all the AFL fans who actually seem to think their sport carries any significance outside of Southern States and kicking up a stink and have the nerve to cry foul. All Sports bring something to the nation, in terms of football there is an important international dimension to the nations psyche being articulated, the ACL, even in its still unrefined stages, the Asian Cup and its Qualifiers and especially the World Cup Qualifiers are of more significance than any screwball junket to Dubai is
NUFCMVFC said | May 24th 2008 @ 8:18pm | Report comment
Hmmm…I think the contentious issue of Stadiums etc during any World Cup in Australia is really a debate for another time, things will be very different in 10-15 years time, stadium demographics will be as well so a lot of the issues being argued over may even be non-issues, there will be different issues and pressure no one can even think of now, there are issues of pissing contests and cultural divides concerning Sports that is starting to creep into this thread that may not really be all that relevant in 10-15 years time as well
True Tah said | May 24th 2008 @ 8:20pm | Report comment
Midfielder,
the problem with the management of rugby is, as you put it, the clash between the schools and the clubs. Personally, I think the solution would be, as you say, that the schools should play during the week, on an afternoon, leaving the weekend free for kids to play rugby, league, soccer, AFL, tennis, whatever they like. I didn’t go to a rugby school, but I played footy with a heaps of guys from my school.
Furthermore, I think the whole GPS/CAS/ISA crap needs to be dissolved, with private schools playing footy with public schools. The comp would be based on a regional basis. Im aware the various school associations compete in many other sports other than rugby and they may not agree to this, but it would go a long way to removing the elitistist tag directed at rugby.
Maybe a Crawford Report for rugby would help our game out? I don’t think the government would fund it like it did for soccer though. There are a heap of issues plaguing rugby now (the Super 14, clubs influence, poor management, losing players overseas) – as an amateur game rugby will always be there (my subbies club never struggles to fill four teams, sometimes we have enough for five teams, and a heap of young blokes from all walks of life), but the professional game is in far worse health.
True Tah said | May 24th 2008 @ 8:49pm | Report comment
NUFCMVFC,
on the issue of sports being forced to give up stadiums for the World Cup, what is your opinion on the GAA banning soccer from their hallowed grounds throughout Ireland (until recently with Croke Park being opened)?
I have never been to Ireland but there seems to be a real rivalry between the GAA and the Irish soccer association – interestingly Irish soccer does not have its own ground in the Republic – it used Lansdowne Road, owned by the Irish Rugby Union. – this rivalry does not seem to exist betweeb the GAA and the IRFU, even though historically the rivalry was initiallly between these two organisations.
I don’t believe the AFL should give up their game for the World Cup – the government should build more rectangular fields around Australia for this event (although I doubt Australia is anywhere near getting the World Cup anyway). As a rugby fan, I couldn’t be happier with the decision to build a whole heap of stadiums, as it would give us proper fields to play on in Melbourne and Perth, and not Subiaco or the MCG/Telstra Dome.
Paul said | May 24th 2008 @ 9:42pm | Report comment
NUFCMVFC,
Could you please tell me how you think a discussion surrounding use of stadiums and a hyopthetical 8 week suspension of the AFL season is not relevant to the thread “The rise of football, who has it hurt?”
Kevin Rudd may be in favour of a world cup, and I am not against a world cup, in so much as respect is required to hold it in such a way as to not violate long held agreements between football leagues and privately held stadiums.
Also, Aussie Rules is the most popular sport in WA, NT, SA, TAS, VIC and southern NSW. This is hardly a minority in Australia, unless of course you think that Sydney IS Australia.
The thing I consider arrogant is that you as a soccer fan think it is ok to just demand that we AFL supporters suspend our season for 8 weeks (preparation time needed- longer than just the tournament- for all stadiums). Stadium sharing will not work, as FIFA demand full access for 8 weeks.
I haven’t heard any mention from soccer fans of wanting there to be a solution, other than comments like, “that’s ok, you can play your games in Bendigo or something…” Tell me how this kind of attitude is not rude or arrogant? How am I arrogant by wanting the AFL season to be played when it always has for over 130 years?
Paul said | May 24th 2008 @ 9:49pm | Report comment
True Tah,
I agree with you. The Federal Government can build a moon shuttle launcher if they believe it will benefit our country. It is the only right thing to do, to build enough stadiums so as to not violate long held agreements and contracts. If this is the intention of the government and the FFA, I can’t complain if the majority are in agreement. But I do highly doubt that the majority of AFL fans in WA, SA and VIC would be in favour of suspending their AFL matches for 8 weeks.
But so far, all we have heard from Frank Lowy and Kevin Rudd is that “other codes will have to take a back seat for a while.” Not THAT is arrogance.
Paul said | May 24th 2008 @ 9:50pm | Report comment
Correction:
Now THAT is arrogance.
Redb said | May 24th 2008 @ 9:52pm | Report comment
NUFCMVFC,
The AFl has every right to defend its turf against the imperialist soccer forces of Frank Lowy, Sepp Blatter and Co. Soccer of better described FIFA is use to steam rolling across various countries , they will find Australia a different kettle of fish.
i support the World Cup if it is played in the soccer season and disrupts the A League as this is fair. The olypmpic or Commonwealth games required a two week change to the schedule and the AFl either moved its competition forward or back without disruption mid season. Now its been debated fairly furiously already on other threads on the Roar, but the World Cup would require somwhere between 6 and 8 weeks right in the middle of the AFl season.
We all love Australia and want it to do well in a range of sports, soccer is not anymore special than rugby, hockey or swimming. They all must live with other sports so should soccer.
The so called long term benefits of hosting sporting events like the Soccer world cup are over rated. Sydney has actually gone backwards since the Olympics as far as tourism is concerned. There is an immediate but very much short term benefit from hosting world class sporting events.
Australia has a strong multi code football heritage, its football but not as FIFA knows it.
Redb
Dave said | May 24th 2008 @ 10:12pm | Report comment
Redb
You should be watching Essendon
“The so called long term benefits of hosting sporting events like the Soccer world cup are over rated. Sydney has actually gone backwards since the Olympics as far as tourism is concerned.”
Germans seemed to have done ok;
“Germany’s World Cup Report Hails Economic, Social Success
Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift: Germany was laughing all the way to the bank after the World Cup
Germany may have not been crowned world champions in July, but the country as a whole came out of the 2006 World Cup as a winner, according to the German government’s report on this summer’s soccer tournament.
The World Cup had a very positive effect on the country’s economy and helped improve its image internationally, according to Interior Minister Wolfgang Schäuble, who attended the unveiling of the report in Berlin on Wednesday.
The four-week tournament earned Germany’s tourism industry an extra 300 million euros ($399 million) in revenue, added 2 billion euros to retail sales and yielded 50,000 new jobs, according to the final report on sports’ biggest event.
Ticket sales funneled a further 40 million euros into the treasury, while the World Cup Organizing Committee earned a net profit of 56.5 million euros, which will go to the German Soccer Federation (DFB) and German Soccer League (DFL).
The DFB announced that the organizing committee had total earnings of 140 million euros from the tournament — it turned over 40 million euros directly to soccer world governing body FIFA and paid 44 million euros in taxes.
And while the cost of holding the World Cup in terms of infrastructure racked up a bill of 3.7 billion euros, Germany welcomed 15 million more visitors — and their euros — to the tournament than original estimates suggested.”
Pretty substantial even if considered to be short term. Note WC unlike Olympics is for the whole country.
Midfielder said | May 24th 2008 @ 10:48pm | Report comment
Redb
Please be more true to the truth.
First Frank Lowy is a Jedi master, and in Sydney next week there is a gathering of the Jedi masters, you called them the “imperialist soccer forces “. Must get terms right.
First our chance of getting the WC are slim, very slim, even if we did there are enough brains to work out how to play a few rounds different. What six rounds, smaller pre season by 3 weeks (pre season is a joke anyway) , extend season by three weeks, or play one week a mid round. In effect changes are small and together will get worked out.
In fact it might be better for the AFL not to go head to head with the WC, just as it is wise for football to stay in summer and not go head to head with AFl & NRL, we know we cannot win ……….. interesting tho ………. would AFL want to go head to head with WC.
BTW did Dave give the “imperialist soccer forces” tag if so shame on him for not giving you the true names.
Redb said | May 24th 2008 @ 11:14pm | Report comment
Midfielder,
“In fact it might be better for the AFL not to go head to head with the WC, just as it is wise for football to stay in summer and not go head to head with AFl & NRL, we know we cannot win ……….. interesting tho ………. would AFL want to go head to head with WC.”
Ask a Hawthorn or Collingwood supporter if they would be watch Australia v Ghana over Hawthorn v Collingwood. I think you will find a mixed response based on the success of your team in that season.
I have a favourite beleif and it is not new its called bandwagoning. For example, try and convert a Geelong supporter in 2007 to soccer, rugby league or rugby union. Not interested your worship.
Try and convince a Hawthorn supporter this year that AFL is crap and the world game is more important ! – only somone who is not an AFl fan would think an international buys support. If Australia is playing we all support Australia not the sport.
Redb
Midfielder said | May 24th 2008 @ 11:21pm | Report comment
Redb
The whole country does not live in Melbourne
Midfielder said | May 24th 2008 @ 11:24pm | Report comment
Hi Guys
We have the my stick is bigger than your stick on the melbourne thread.
Can we try to keep this one to management decisions effect, or close to anyway
Redb said | May 24th 2008 @ 11:24pm | Report comment
Keh?
Midfielder said | May 24th 2008 @ 11:31pm | Report comment
True Tah
Intersting your comment about unions own Crawford report. Should happen al least internally as I see rugby has for years put to many eggs into to only a few baskets and it is starting to hurt. It saddends me actually to see rugby in a position of almost watch and see were I can fit in.
Its like everything hangs on the S14 contract, if it falls over then what is plab “B”.
Paul said | May 25th 2008 @ 12:41am | Report comment
Dave,
3.7 billion euros expenses – 2 billion euros retail sales – 300 million euros tourist revenue = 1.7 billion euros loss.
Add to that, construction in Germany has almost come to a halt. I have friends that operate a saw mill here in Siberia. They just lost their major client- a German construction firm; because the German economy is really struggling.
Hmmm, perhaps not such a success story after all, and the article you read was a German politician trying to put a good spin on things.
Paul said | May 25th 2008 @ 12:44am | Report comment
Hey, lets take the world cup on head to head, maybe then the world might see that there is another game (but FIFA would probably just cover it up and never give Australia a major tournament again).
Dave said | May 25th 2008 @ 9:03am | Report comment
Paul
Try telling that to someone who obtained one of the 50,000 new jobs.
Paul said | May 25th 2008 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
Dave,
And the even greater number of construction workers who have lost their jobs….?
Paul said | May 25th 2008 @ 1:17pm | Report comment
Oops, I forgot to correct my maths, 1.4 billion euros loss, still that’s not a very successful tournament financially.
NUFCMVFC said | May 25th 2008 @ 2:29pm | Report comment
Well, to Paul and RedB, I think they have a bit of a nerve speaking of Football in terms of imperialistic forces considering the imperialistic nature of how the AFL is trying to expand and monoploise the Australian Sports market and steamroll into GOld Coast and Western Sydney, which is really ironic considering that you have the nerve to talk about respecting the right for other sports to have a presence given the conduct of the AFL and its media cronies in this country over the years and decades. Absolute hypocrits
The AFL doesen’t necassarily have to literally suspend its comp, it merely has to adjust it as it did for the Olympics in 2000, as midfielder says it is just a matter of adjusting the start and end, this is for the greater benefit of the Australian sports loving public, so that they can fully focus on enjoying both sports rather than having to choose as they would have to if the AFL were playing during World Cup, it is about accomodating both in the opimum manner, you don’t think staging world cup matches and AFL matches at the same time would impact on AFL braodcast ratings and match attendances? How is that in the AFL’s interest? They would lose heaps of manner and have a weaker bargaining position in sponsorship and TV braodcast negotiations
Also, a bit of a nerve talking about AFL fans defending their turf as if it is the Australian community up against a bunch of foreigners, the issue of the world cup is not one of foreigners imposing a game, but a matter of a Sports mad nation that prides itself on its sporting pedigreee finally getting the largest sporting event on earth and being able to enjoy it. I think you’ll find that the massive weight on public opinion would be on the AFL pulling its head out of its ass for one season and being willing to open itself to a compromising solutions, it is the AFL fans who are closed to the solutions.
This isn’t about “defending Australia” from some kind of foreign threat, it is more about AFL fans wanting to obstruct the flourishing of the Australian Football community and trying to pretend football is a foreign entity with no domestic presence or resonance to Australian society, it is about trying to deny football a place at the mainstream table because of fear. AFL is not the entire Australian community, it is only a segment of it, just as Rugby and Football communities are different segments of it, there are many people who are hardcores for the one code, but most people have a cross code interest and attend a range of different types, they share the same fans.
If lots of Australians have to miss out on tickets to world cup matches because they have to play in smaller stadiums because AFL is arrogantly playing in a half empty MCG, who is going to come looking badly from that?
You are wrong if you think that Australians will be hostile to FIFA World Cup and some kind of different kettle of fish, they will welcome it with open arms, just as they embraced Australias participation last year
Also, I think you’ll find that the reason Football has become so popular world wide is not because it is imperialsitic, quite the opposite, it is because it is able to be adapted in line with the local culture so easily, this is witnessed through the diverse range of styles and support culture you see throughout the world, there is nothing imperialistic about that at all, rather it is an outlet for cultural diversity and expression
Dave said | May 25th 2008 @ 4:20pm | Report comment
NUFCMVFC
“Also, I think you’ll find that the reason Football has become so popular world wide is not because it is imperialsitic, quite the opposite, it is because it is able to be adapted in line with the local culture so easily, this is witnessed through the diverse range of styles and support culture you see throughout the world, there is nothing imperialistic about that at all, rather it is an outlet for cultural diversity and expression”
Here here
Paul
Your views concerning football in general and the WC are extremely negative and from a biased perspective. The German Govt states the WC a massive success as does its industry and from what l gather the Germans themselves.
If WC is such a waste of money or a huge money losing venture why are countries queing up to bid, including AUSTRALIA???
Redb said | May 25th 2008 @ 8:29pm | Report comment
NUFCMVFC,
This is an opinion site I can have all the nerve I can muster if it warrants.
Germany only has one code of football – no surprise it went well. Australia has four football codes and two of those are dominant in their respective patches. your damn right it is imperialist to run their big tournament at the same time as the existing premier football codes of AFL and NRL in Australia. What else would you like to call it?
Let’s be clear and this has already been mentioned, we are not talking about 2 weeks of disruption, but between 6 and 8 weeks.
It may shock you to know but most Australians who have other football codes as their passion are only interested in Australian socceroo games. The majority of World Cup games outside of Socceroo games or finals will be meaningless to the rest of us. Play the thing in summer during the soccer season.
The economic benefit is short lived and as far as AFl is concerned we dont need a cent of soccer money to build our stadiums – we have the MCG as our showpiece with adeqaute stadiums elsewhere.
Redb
Midfielder said | May 26th 2008 @ 7:53pm | Report comment
In terms of football management the following articles will result in a massive contest;- both these articles are about the same thing.
The first being a political theme (and I might add about time), and the second FL vision very impressive. But others will want to have there share.
As I said very very interesting especially if you look at the Adelaide United player off to Turkey and a Olyroo,
http://andrewbartlett.com/blog/?p=2031
Posted by Andrew Bartlett under Refugees & asylum seekers, Sport
After some of the public attacks on refugees from Africa which occurred in the lead up to last years election for allegedly ‘not integrating’, with the worst inferences being targeted at young males, it was good to see a story in today’s Australian newspaper highlighting the positive expectations for African refugees in the future of Australian soccer.
Four African refugees – from Sudan, Congo, Ethiopia and Liberia – are part of the Joeys, which is Australia’s under-17 side. The story also featured another black African player who migrated here from Zimbabwe, plus another from PNG. Football Federation Australia is trying to win the rights to stage the 2018 World Cup, and the chair of FFA is highlighting that players like these will be the future faces in our Socceroos team, alongside those from European countries that have traditionally made up the bulk of the team.
By coincidence, the same day this story appeared I attended a social soccer match in suburban Brisbane between teams made up of people from Liberia and Botswana – some migrants, some refugees, some students, some of them Australian citizens and most of the rest to become so in the future.
These young Australians do a lot more than play soccer of course, but that is just one area where their skills and energies will be able to help improve our nation’s future.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23749108-5013406,00.html
Lowy pins hopes on new faces of Australian soccer
Peter Kogoy | May 24, 2008
MEET the new face of Australian soccer – and its roots are African. Refugees from Sudan, Ethiopia, Congo and Sierra Leone have not only found a new home in this country, but are also fundamental to Football Federation Australia chairman Frank Lowy’s plan to change Australia’s sporting landscape.
Mr Lowy’s vision is for the Joeys – the national under-17 side – to be the faces of 2018, the year the Westfield Group executive chairman hopes Australia can stage the World Cup.
Among the Joeys’ players are four African refugees: Tedros Yabio, who escaped drought and poverty in Sudan for a refugee camp in Ethiopia before emigrating to Australia; Million Butshiire from the Congo, Kamal Ibrahim from Ethiopia and Julius Davies from Liberia.
The Joeys have a fifth African-born player in Danai Gapare, who migrated from Zimbabwe, and a Papua New Guinean, Phillip Lamin. Butshiire, who has settled with his family of six brothers and two sisters in Perth, said: “My father was a political refugee and our family lived for nearly a year in a camp in Uganda before we were accepted to this country.
“Life in Africa was very difficult; I didn’t know when or where I was going to eat my next meal. One day I want to play for Australia at the World Cup.” Mr Lowy told The Weekend Australian that the Joeys were “our football future”. “These young men are the faces of 2018 who will be the core of the team that fills our field of dreams in our bid to host and play in the FIFA World Cup. “Dreams do come true if you’re prepared to work hard.
“For a long time now we’ve seen how both Australian-born and immmigrant sons can play together and are doing a good job. My message to FIFA delegates at the congress in Sydney this week is Australia can and will hold a successful World Cup.
“Football in this country is growing unbelievably and in 10 years’ time, God knows where we’ll be with our football.”
Mr Lowy said this year’s Joeys reflected the diversity of the Australian population.
Aside from the four refugees from Africa in the team, Serb-born Niko Stanojevic is seen as a potential striker in the mould of John Aloisi, whose penalty in the shootout against Uruguay earned the Socceroos a berth at the last World Cup.
Team manager Joe Freeme said: “All the kids get on really well. They are all very level-headed boys who … dream of one day playing for Australia at the highest level. What you are seeing today is the changing face of Australian soccer.”
NUFCMVFC said | May 28th 2008 @ 8:38am | Report comment
Interesting to note the stories coming out regarding the NBL’s health, I recall reading a few months ago about FOx Sports shifting emphasis and resources away from NBL and towards Football a bit more, so perhaps the emergence of football has squeezed basketball that little bit more, but I think the issue with basketball is mostly its own doing
http://www.theage.com.au/news/basketball/kings-on-verge-of-collapse/2008/05/26/1211653942966.html
“Kings on verge of collapse
THE Sydney Kings could be days from extinction. The basketball team’s majority owner, the controversial Firepower boss Tim Johnston, has failed to pay his players this month and owes them tens of thousands of dollars, putting pressure on the National Basketball League to strip the club of its franchise…”
And
http://news.theage.com.au/sport/bullets-endangered-as-backer-withdraws-20080527-2ii7.html
“Bullets endangered as backer withdraws
Foundation NBL club Brisbane Bullets could be defunct by the end of the week.
The club’s white knight, Brisbane businessman David Kemp, has notified recently appointed general manager Brian Kerle that the sponsorship promised in a rescue takeover of Eddy Grove’s NBL licence is no longer available.
It’s placed the foundation club’s future in the NBL in grave doubt unless a new backer can be found by the end of the week.
A shocked and disappointed Kerle has called a press conference on Tuesday to outline emergency plans to try and avoid the collapse of the three-time NBL champions.”
”
Seems basketball has gone out of fashion slightly and seeing as the pie has been squeezed a bit more they are struggling
Midfielder said | May 28th 2008 @ 7:38pm | Report comment
NUFCMVFC
John O’Neil made an interesting comment prior to Hal 1, was off the ground, he said “I hope we can get close to a 10, 000 average to games”. He went on to say we need to grow a little each year it is no use being like Basketball have a big bang spalsh the first year and then go backwards, you loose credibility. But if you grown even a little each year and then before you know it you have 5 to 7 years of growth, then thats when people chase you and you command (not demand) respect.
IMO Basketball in its current format is doomed as was the model, very few juniors leagues, with not a lot of juniors, imported from an overseas country playing twice per week to fit into the US model, high gate prices. Needs to go broke and reinvent itself to have any future.
Midfielder said | May 31st 2008 @ 12:07am | Report comment
Not hurting anyone but brining in some big names with big wallets Gold Coast paper today
Billionaire eclipses Galaxy A-League bid
David Lewis
30 May 08
BILLIONAIRE Gold Coast mining magnate Clive Palmer, Queensland’s richest man, has dipped into his bulging wallet to all but guarantee himself the A-League soccer licence the Galaxy consortium thought was theirs for the taking.
In a stunning eleventh-hour coup, the larger-than-life Palmer, 54, who played soccer and rugby league on the Coast as a young man, has emerged from the shadows as Australia’s answer to Chelsea’s Russian oligarch owner Roman Abramovich.
Secret talks with Football Federation Australia have been going on for over a week — and the as-yet-unnamed franchise will be officially unveiled next Friday after already receiving the tacit approval of FFA kingpin Frank Lowy and his chief executive Ben Buckley.
Ironically, a long-awaited final decision on the destiny of the Fred Taplin-led Galaxy bid was due at an FFA board meeting on Tuesday — but the tectonic plates have shifted irrevocably with emergence of Palmer, who made his estimated $1.5 billion fortune from real estate and then mineral prospecting in the Pilbara.
Last night Palmer, who has a home near Labrador but spends much of the year traversing the globe in his 120-seat private jet, descended on rain-lashed Pizzey Park, Miami — home of Burleigh Heads soccer club — to catch a clash between the Queensland Roar and a Premier League XI.
He also took time out to unveil his vision for a club he sees as the likely A-League champions within three seasons.
“That’s the plan,” he said. “The Gold Coast deserves the best team in the land and that’s what they will get. They will receive all the financial support they need.
“I don’t like to lose at anything I do and down here there’s a chance to be winners.
“I’m from Surfers Paradise originally; I know the people and I am more than happy to be involved.
“I want to put something back into a community that supported me for many years.
“There are 40,000 people between here and NSW involved in soccer — the only game which truly represents us internationally.”
Palmer is convinced nothing can stop him leading a team into an expanded 10-team competition in 2009-2010.
“People who know what I do will know that things I’m involved in usually work out okay and I can support the club (financially) no matter what.”
The Taplin-led alliance of local property developers was granted a provisional licence back in February but have struggled to make headway with the FFA since.
The Gold Coast is set to be one of three Queensland teams in 2009, alongside the Roar and a Townsville franchise.
A startled Taplin would only say last night: “I am aware of Mr Palmer’s interest and things are moving fast.”
It’s believed that Miron Bleiberg, who had been aligned to the Galaxy bid, may be recruited.
The Galaxy moniker will be ditched, with Palmer adding: “The Galaxy name belongs to the LA Galaxy. We’ll eventually be playing in the Asian Champions League on an international level, so we don’t want any confusion.
“We’ll come up with a name that’s going to be regionally based.” Palmer ‘retired’ at 29 after striking it rich in property. He then switched his gaze to Western Australia with his company, Mineralogy, sitting on huge iron ore deposits. His fortune is estimated at $1.5 billion. He contends he’s worth nearly twice that.
Though he played soccer for Broadbeach in his teens, Palmer was a better league player who has just had a grandstand at his old club, the Southport Tigers, named after him.
Such is his largesse that, when approached recently by the Tigers, Palmer donated $50,000 in holidays for the club’s best-and-fairest awards. What he could achieve with an A-League franchise for the Coast is the stuff of wild imagination.