By Paul
May 27th 2008 @ 7:52am
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Federal government should increase funds to Indigenous AFL
The Federal budget handed down on May 13th showed strong favouritism towards the Football Federation of Australia over all other sports.
While $718.7 million was allocated to the “Close the Gap” policy program for Indigenous people, none was officially allocated directly to development of AFL amongst indigenous communities.
Indigenous Australians place great significance on the game of Australian Rules Football. Whether the sport of Marn Grook was an influence in the birth of Australian Rules Football or not is an issue hotly debated by some, but it undoubtedly is very important to indigenous Australians, and provides an essential connection through history for them.
Indigenous Australians have great ownership in the game of AFL. Indigenous Australians make up 10% of the AFL, but only 2% of the national population.
Indigenous children in many communities wear football gear as their daily clothing and play Australian Football constantly. They live and breathe the game. Indigenous Australian children interviewed in World Vision’s indigenous partnerships, overwhelmingly stated that it is their dream to play AFL professional football when they grow up.
Indigenous ownership of the game was proudly demonstrated in the Dream Time game at the MCG on Saturday night. The concept of the dreaming is not something from the past, but something which continues through all time and on into the future. AFL has become an important part of the dreaming for indigenous Australians.
The Close the Gap policy may well bring a lot of change and development for indigenous communities, and I hope sincerely that it does, but there is always the concern that this money will be delivered in a paternalistic manner, instead of trusting Aboriginal communities to spend the money on things that they see fit.
Much research has already shown that sporting activities for children and youth gives them hope in life and is a strong prevention against drug and alcohol abuse. Aussie Rules brings hope for Aboriginal kids. Let the indigenous communities spend money on improving facilities so that as many Aboriginal children can play footy as have the desire.
The Football Federation of Australia received $32 million in the federal budget. A further $10 million was given for the development of the Energy Australia Stadium in Newcastle (shared by the NRL and the A-League). In total soccer’s share in the federal budget was $37 million; cricket’s share was $17.5 million; Rugby League’s share was $13 million; AFL’s share was $7.5 million. No money was allocated to Rugby Union, in fact Howard’s previous pledge of $25 million to Rugby Union was removed.
Kevin Rudd has placed a lot of time, energy and money into developing the game of soccer, and towards winning the 2018 world cup for Australia. But in the process he is allowing his own personal preferences in sport to over ride the greater needs of indigenous sport in Australia.
I wonder what indigenous Australians would have to say about that?
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(164)
NUFCMVFC said | May 27th 2008 @ 8:58am | Report comment
AFL has plenty of money, can easily spend the money it is using on South Africa on Aborigines itself and in the Northern Territory, if they are indeed hard core AFL followers than they are AFL constituents and it is the AFL’s responsibility, find it a bit of an awkward argument that someohoe giving money to football has been strangely morphed into an argument about Rudd then somehow neglecting Indiginous Australians.
Also, what about indigineous Australians wanting to follow in Travis Dodds and Jade Norths footsteps and play for the Socceroos? AFL doesen’t have some kind of monopoly over indigineous Australians. I can twist the same logic around and cite the refugees in the Joeys squad and say that under investment in Football for years is bad because it had hindered the integration of migrants into Australian society, after all, they live and breathe football, wear association football shirts and so a good way to welcome them into the country is via a local version of a platform they are familiar with. I find the talk about Rudds “preference” and the whingeing surrounding a bit rich considering the preferential treatment other sports have always been given over football, I recall seeing Premier Brumby at some Dubai AFL junket but never at Melbournes ACL matches, including against our Japanese sister city Osaka
Also, the fact that Football for once has gotten a bit more money is pretty much a first, but it is important now because as part of the AFC, through the Sport of football we are directly engaging with a region that will become increasingly important economic partners and it is important there is the infrastructure etc in place in order to be able to facilitate those ties, we will be having womens and youth teams competing in Asian competitions and that now needs to be provided for
Midfielder said | May 27th 2008 @ 9:26am | Report comment
Just for the record there are more both in percentages terms and in number play rugby league.
In fact in the NRL they have an Indigenous team its called South Sydney. To me like many things the AFL does it claims to be the biggest and the best when ignoring other codes who often do more. The Melbourne support this as well.
Some facts to consider, league is more represented than any other code, football as I understand was the first football code to play an Indigenous person in a national shirt, football is the only team sport I am aware of who has had an Indigenous person as the team capitian, football has appointed a national coach who was Indigenous.
So if funded to all codes and the AFL may find that for all its talk on this issue it is only one of a number.
Redb said | May 27th 2008 @ 9:27am | Report comment
“AFL has plenty of money, can easily spend the money it is using on South Africa on Aborigines itself”
You must be a Krudd voter to think like that. What’s next let’s tax the AFL for being successful and give it to FFA.
I don’t think the AFL or FFA should complain, what about the ARU funding for a rugby academy in Brisbane promised by Howard or RL’s hall of famethat was to be built from Canberra money - Rudd turned off the tap.
Rudd’s mandate is not to pick one sport over another - he should fund all football codes/sports in a balanced way.
Redb
Redb said | May 27th 2008 @ 9:31am | Report comment
Midfielder,
I think you will need to prove your opening comment. There are quite a few aborginal players running around in the AFL.
Redb
Forgetmenot said | May 27th 2008 @ 10:57am | Report comment
Wonderful article. I had been waiting for an article as such in a major paper but alas i didn’t see any.
It seems to me that Rudd is just like any politician and is only concerned about the short term positives that he can show to the Australian public.
Can you imagine the economic windfall that Australia would receive if the government helped promote football around the world. We could have hundreds of millions of dollars coming in to the country from overseas every year if only a small percentage of the world started following AFL.
I myself am considering joining a political party that champions the cause of the true blue Australian, lets try to make the next fedreral election about politicians whowill do what it itakes to improve Australia, not improve their own credentials.
Footy Freak said | May 27th 2008 @ 11:04am | Report comment
The AFL is investing very little in South Africa, most of the work is done by others than the AFL.
One thing that Rudd may have forgotten is that it is against South Africa that our only indigenous team to compete internationally, the “Flying Boomerangs’. This team has assisted the growth of fine young men, including those who have reached the highs of AFL in Austin Wonaeamirri, Isaac Weetra, Malcolm Lynch and Nathan Krakouer.
Midfielder said | May 27th 2008 @ 11:26am | Report comment
Redb
Will get back to you with links latter in the week.
Lazza said | May 27th 2008 @ 11:55am | Report comment
AFL is still struggling to cobble together a NATIONAL competition after 150 years. People around the world and half this country are just not interested.
Rudd is continuing the policy of Howard and the Liberals. How many Gold medals are we going to win in our ‘traditional’ sports at the Olympics? ZERO! None of our sports can muster enough interest to win a vote on the IOC and be included?
Why don’t you ask the Government to stop funding the AIS and transfer the money to AFL? The World Cup has overtaken the Olympics as the World’s biggest sporting event. TV ratings are 10 times the Olympics.
All our Governments and the majority of Australians want our country to be a force on the World’s biggest sporting stage. Get used to it.
True Tah said | May 27th 2008 @ 12:17pm | Report comment
Midfielder,
I think you will find that quite a few of the South Sydney Rabbitohs are of Polynesian descent, and are not Aboriginal.
I also believe that both Arthur Beetson and Mark Ella captained the national sides of their respective sporting codes at some stage, therefore negating your claim that soccer is the only football code to have an indigeonus Australian as captain.
Lazza,
we already win enough medals at the Olympics without including our traditional sports, and against countries with far more than our population. Soccer is England’s number one game, but funnily enough the Poms Olympic medal count doesn’t suggest that having soccer as your number one game improves your Olympic performances. The US and China constantly appear in the top couple of medal winning nations, and neither of this could be attributed to soccer.
In any event, the fact that the likes of rugby, cricket and AFL are not included does not phase me, it would be impractical to play rugby and AFL anyway, these sports are too physically demanding to play effectively within a 2 week competition.
Rudd basically seems to want all Australians to play soccer because it is the world game - and also the most generic team game. The phrase which basically springs to mind of soccer to me is “If everybody looked the same”.
My sport got the short end of the stick when Rudd was handing it out, but I think this will force rugby to lift its game, and management to be lift their game. Historically rugby got bugger all support anyway.
Eamonn Flanagan said | May 27th 2008 @ 12:17pm | Report comment
Fantastic article.
What about “fair go Australia”. First time football , ever, gets more dosh than any of the other codes, and whingersfrom Roy Masters down whinge on about “favouritism.”
Never heard any of the other codes ever suggesting football should get more money, despite having the biggest player base in the country over the last twenty years
Still Indigenous card, let’s play it. AFL seems to have many Indigenous players, fantastic, and the game is entrenched in Indigenous communities, fantastic, but surely a true believer in Indigenous communities should be complaining that the Fed Govt has not spent enough on Indigenous Australians in the World Game arena where there will be a growth of opportunities for kids in coming years.
After all we are all interested in increasing the opportunities for those kids, surely, and they should be given a wider range of sports than just AFL.
Increase the spending to enable more Indigenous Aussies like Jade North, Travis, Dodd, David Williams, Tahj Minnicon, Lydia Williams and Kyah Simon to play football at the highest level, and across the World.
No matter how many Indigenous men play in the ANZAC day game, Jade North for the Socceroos v China, Lydia Williams for the Matildas in the Asia Cup this week in Vietnam will be watched by more across the World…..and of course career prospects are better. A footballer can play more games per year, in general, and can stay in the game, in general, for a longer playing career. Not to mention the options they have to play across Australia, Asia and the World.
Maybe it was favouritism as some paranoid AFL and League media men tell us, or maybe it was good policy for the future of Australia.
And don’t worry David Gallop and co are complaining so hard that the Fed Govt will clearly do the “right thing” before the next election. And I don’t expect to see too many shouting, “what about football.”
Interestingly Footyfreak, AFL now have 10,000 players in South Africa. I’m told football gets the black South Africans, Whites go to cricket, and AFL are aiming at being non-racial. Shouldn’t be too long before one or two make it to the Aussie stage if reports are true.
Lazza said | May 27th 2008 @ 12:28pm | Report comment
True Tah,
Football is our only truly NATIONAL football code as well as being the World Game, just ask John O’Neil. I’m not saying Football has to take money away from other sports but it needs to be funded like the AIS so we can compete on the World Stage.
That’s my point about the Olympics. Even though none of our traditional sports are included we deem it important to compete in the World’s 2nd biggest sporting event.
Michael C said | May 27th 2008 @ 12:29pm | Report comment
One point too easily forgotten when comparing the RL to the AFL and older VFL - - was, that the majority of indigenous Australians were playing throughout WA, SA and NT - - and so the players in the WAFL and SANFL had a greater representation than the more well known VFL.
I gather at present, the percentage proportion figure might just favour the NRL vs the AFL - - however, the absolute total number goes to the AFL (by virtue of more listed players) - - but, then - - the more kids who play whatever - the better, and are provided a possible career path - - is cool - - but,
the important thing are the programs such as the Clontarf Academies - - that don’t just focus on building athletes to be chewed up by whatever professional sport - - but, that focus on developing ‘leaders’ within the indigenous community.
As it is - the main funding comes from State Governments.
Remember back when the AFL was (like FIFA) resisting signing on lock, stock and barrel with WADA - - and the AFL was threatened by the Feds with withheld funding. I think at the time it would’ve only amounted to about $750K to $1m. Stuff all.
The AFL get basically nothing from the Feds - - other than for strings attached ‘infrastructure’ developments - - i.e. the Footscray (Whitten Oval) and North Melb (Arden St) developments are a funding mix of all govt levels PLUS the AFL and MUST be community facilities - - so, the Govts are actually squeezing money from the AFL.
The irony back with the funding and drugs saga - was that the piddling amount of Fed Govt funding was used for grass roots programs - - and, one of the main reasons the AFL was keen for a little more flex in it’s illicit drugs program related to the higher use of certain drugs by the indigenous community - - - so, while the AFL is actually working on the ground - - the previous Howard Govt was grandstanding in Canberra (especially during last years drawn out election campaign)
As it is - - an awful lot of Fed funding goes to Olympic sports - - and the entire AIS program seems aimed at trying to draw athletes away from the non-Olympic sports - - and it’s only via a technicality that the AFL has access - - and that has been the junior series with Ireland, and now South Africa.
It seems that the AFL continues to thrive and prosper despite efforts at Fed Govt level to undermine or exclude it.
Redb said | May 27th 2008 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
Lazza,
“AFL is still struggling to cobble together a NATIONAL competition after 150 years. People around the world and half this country are just not interested.”
Well half the country is very interested including the 550,000 members of AFL clubs around the country.
AFL is an Australian game, so why the hell is the Australian Government so carelessly forgetting that fact. They ratified Kyoto as well, but do they really fully understand what is involved for Australia to comply?. No, its Rudd the human headline - same thing with the soccer WC.
I don’t wish to overly politicise a sports forum, but lets face it, Kevin Rudd is inviting this criticism due to his love of playing the interntaitonal statesman - and yes only soccer deilvers that ability - its Australians that vote him into office.
Your attitude is one of the reasons many fans of AFL in particular rail against soccer - you want Australia to become just another number on the FIFA ranking list. Why don’t you care about Australia in hockey, basketball,etc?
How is soccer the only truly national code? - Do you have teams in Darwin, Hobart, Canberra? AFL has teams in Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane, Adelaide and Perth, same as the A League but with much bigger crowds, TV ratings and popular support.
Half the country are very passionate about our Australian game, the deeper this goes the more entrenched we become on this issue.
Redb
Lazza said | May 27th 2008 @ 1:27pm | Report comment
Redb, look up “Sweeney Report” on the web. It’s the most comprehensive survey of Australian sport that comes out every Winter.
Soccer is the only Football code that has an even spread of support and interest around the country. The other codes are only big in half the country. That’s why Ben Buckley, John O’Neil etc have called soccer our only truly NATIONAL football code. That’s after 3 years! The Socceroos can get 55K on a Wednesday night in Melbourne for the 96th ranked team in the World? The game in QLD on Sunday is sold out.
Your comments are typical though, it has to be AFL OR Soccer? Can’t we do both? Watching another sport is not a sign of disloyalty.
Redb said | May 27th 2008 @ 1:47pm | Report comment
Sweeney Report - Sports Interest Ratings 2006-07
Australian Rules - 57% up 2 (from last year).
Soccer - 51% up 1.
RL - 42% level
RU - 40%. level
Looks like its soccer that only half the country are interested in
Redb
Michael C said | May 27th 2008 @ 1:48pm | Report comment
Lazza - - and Redb - -
come on guys - - not this old cherry again.
Lazza - - soccer is the most consistant ‘average’ across the board, i.e. lowest common denominator. That doesn’t make it the ONLY TRUE national code. This is simply a measure in which soccer CAN be INTERPRETED as being MORE consistant across the states……..however……what do these figures translate to in the real world?
How many attended soccer matches EACH week across the major domestic league season? Stuff all on a state by state comparison - - even, such, that the Swans every 2 weeks are about twice the value of SFC - - - fair enough, there’s 3 teams in NSW - - however, compare Glory fortnightly vs EITHER of the Eagles or Freo. Even the Lions sit very well above the Roar in QLD. Victoria…..’nuff said.
What does all this mean to Free To Air tv coveage and the related advertiser value proposition. Stuff all for soccer.
Given the split market of soccer - - that, within that Sweeney report you’ll capture the following subsets :
-Only care about the EPL,
-only care about the FA Cup final and World Cup
-only care about the kids under 8s sat morning soccer - - we actually watch the footy/rugby etc
-care a little about the HAL but more the internationals
-Love the Socceroos, support the HAL, but, don’t go, it’s not good enough
-Love everything, signed up member, watch it on tele, total soccer nut
That soccer number is heavily DILUTED - - because, it really isn’t absolutely obvious just WHAT is means.
AFL wise - - well, there IS only one AFL competition, you can’t get confused even between the NRL club competition, superleague on tele from England and the SoO and the really odd international……oh, okay, the AFL had their first roll out of the Big ‘V’ since 1999 this year, and, we seem likely to play the Irish again in the hybrid game……I’m not even sure that would come into it at all.
Now - - for measures of attendance and club membership - - which are absolutely REAL - - not extrapolations based on limited survey sample data sets that are only so indicative because we know that we have major state to state variance as well as major metro vs regional - - so, on the attendance and club membership - - really, the AFL is the only truely national football league.
I’m not trying to argue about mine is bigger than yours - - however, when quoting the Sweeney report - - keep a very healthy recognition on the LIMITATIONS of the data set size and the MEANING of the questioning and the ‘results’.
At the ‘interest’ level - - well, certainly that can be very misleading - - really, it’s very broad - - being a spectator, viewer, reading results in paper or on the net.
Pariticipants - -
btw - - The Sweeney survey IS ONLY undertaken in the major capital cities - - many in regional areas might argue that there’s a big city skew - - that IS NOT quite so representative of regional areas.
however - - keep quoting the spin of Ben Buckley - - that’s his job - - and, you’ll just lap it up.
btw - - what do you mean “That’s after 3 years”
By saying that, you’re only talking about the HAL - - and therefore their attendance, membership and tv viewing figures.
DO NOT then refer to the Socceroos - - they’ve been around for ever.
DO NOT then refer to Sweeney reports on generic soccer that INCLUDES any interest in the ‘world game’, AND the local grass roots comps that pretty well pre-date the HAL.
You’re NOT really sure what your argument is - - you just want to argue.
Please - - you don’t need to be so confrontational.
Redb said | May 27th 2008 @ 1:53pm | Report comment
Lazza,
Ben Buckley and Jon O’Neill hold/held positions within the FFA - no surprise at their slant.
After 3 years - you mean it went from nothing to nationwide participation in 3 years or do you mean the A League after 3 years - If latter, refer TV ratings and crowds of AFL v A League. If former and support and interest in soccer is so great refer to crowds and TV ratings for AFL v A League.
I watch a variety of sports this article has nothing to do with viewer habits.
Redb
Spiro Zavos said | May 27th 2008 @ 2:00pm | Report comment
At the end of the Rudd 20/20 talkfest I wrote a piece in the Sydney Morning Herald, in my rugby column, about the lack of any input from sports administrators. The current Minister for Sport is a person who clearly knows nothing about sport (confusing rugby league and rugby union, for instance) and who did not have the nous or the lobbying power to get leading sports administrators to the event, though some of them suggested to her they were willing to attend and to throw in their ideas.
I also pointed out that one of the big ideas that should have been considered was an idea promoted by Professor Colin Tatz (the author of Black Diamonds, a histort of Aboriginal sports stars) that the remote communities should have a sports-led renaissance, with sports carnivals, mainly involving AFL, being used to provide something for people to strive for and to excel at.
The Rudd government has been duchessed by Frank Lowy to spend many millions of dollars pushing for Australia to riun a Football World Cup tournament. South Africa hosts the Football World Cup in 2010. It is most unlikely that Australia could get up 8 years later when England and Brazil, for instance, want to host the event.
Then there is the huge amount of money being spent on getting television exposure for the Matildas, the national women’s football side.
I think a bigger priority with government spending on sport would be to put it into the Tatz project of sports carnivals for the remote Aboriginal communities.
Redb said | May 27th 2008 @ 2:02pm | Report comment
MC,
trying to make friends with these soccer people but they just keep tripping over their own arrogance about the world game compared to our puny little Australian game.
The fact is krudd has opened a can of worms with his attempt to add to more international statesman resume and cred err… crud.
Redb
p.s. Why ‘flog’ a dead horse MC.
Lazza said | May 27th 2008 @ 2:07pm | Report comment
Guys,
The ALeague is averaging 14.5K per game, only 1000 less than the NRL. According to media reports the next Soccer TV package will be a FTA/Pay TV combination on a par with the NRL. Soccer is an international game so we must include the Socceroos. Otherwise, Cricket is a minor sport in this country because it doesn’t attract crowds for local games.
If you really think all sports can co-exist why are you lot so against funding Soccer? If we wish to make an impact on the World Stage we have 9 NATIONAL teams that have to be funded. They don’t just show up for tournaments either, they usually have a 2 year qualifying campaign just to get there.
Redb said | May 27th 2008 @ 2:18pm | Report comment
Spiro,
Good points.
I had the fortune to visit the Tiwis Islands on a fishing trip a few years ago and was amazed at their passion for AFL. Most had never been off the island but they all had their favourite teams and players. The local pub (open for just two hours a day) had a Carlton room, Collingwood room and Essendon room. I quickly advised them the first two rooms were not requried. They love their footy and play the game with great flair. I think the AFL has done a fantastic job in reducing racism in sport and introducing pathways to a better life (except for the cold winter nights in Melbourne).
Redb
Midfielder said | May 27th 2008 @ 2:21pm | Report comment
True Tah
I was not claiming that souths was made up of only Aboriginal players, but that Souths as a club is in Redfren and is know to be pro active to Aboriginal people for years and godd on them.
Conceed on Mark Ella, not sure if Beetson was ever capitian.
However this is away from my arguement that the AFL holds that they have some extra special relationship with Indigenous people when it is a shared common aspect by most sports in Australia. The AFL are no better or worst than football / league / or union.
Lazza said | May 27th 2008 @ 2:25pm | Report comment
Redb,
That 57% support for AFL is 78% in the Southern States and about 28% in NSW/QLD. The 42% interest in the Rugby codes drops to about 18% in the Southern States.
The 51% interest in Soccer is 51% around the entire country, hence our only truly NATIONAL Football code.
Michael C said | May 27th 2008 @ 2:25pm | Report comment
Redb -
ah, couldn’t resist just dropping by - - you see, I made a point totally based upon real research and balanced and really common enough views. It’s not WHAT is said, but by whom. Critics from without are bias and lambasted.
btw - -
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/enoughrope/transcripts/s1167093.htm
I remember when Andrew Denton interviewed Ted Egan back in 2004 (and this was during Egan’s stint as administrator of the NT from 2003-2007) -
Egan presented the following response:
“When I left, the wheels fell off. The projects that I’d been so proud of…weren’t continued. The only…thing that I instituted at Yuendumu that’s still valid to this day - and it’s very, very valid - is I taught the young blokes how to play Aussie Rules football. And they’re still very, very good at football. And that’s something that I’m going to pick up in my influential… I won’t say this is a powerful job I’ve got now, the Administrator’s job, but it is an influential job. And I’m going to pick up this football - football has stayed - and revisit a few of these places and a few of the people, via football, and say, “Can we try again in a few areas?”
Ironically - - at the time, I thought, cool, where will this lead - - and, alas, Andrew Denton, who I presume doesn’t count ‘Australian Football’ as his area of expertise - - left us hanging - -
ANDREW DENTON: You mentioned earlier your music which has been such another distinct thread of your life. And as you said, 28 albums. And you’ve been basically recording a history of Australia over that time, track by track. Why is that so important to you, to record?
AT any rate - -
Egan will be happy that an NT team is seemingly headed toward the AFLQ I gather, he’s argued for an AFL NT team, and, this should be a stepping stone. And, it’’s worth re-reading the story of how St.Marys football club came about - - and the ‘good’ that it has done - - - as Egan mentions “we’ve had three Aboriginal St Marys footballers who’ve become members of parliament”
Now - on this issue - - it seems to me that Australian Football (let’s be careful NOT to credit the AFL TOO much) has been doing a great job with limited Fed Govt support - - and, it seems that if you’ve already built cultural bridges - - then, don’t go building parallel bridges - - build more bridges further out instead.
Lazza -
the HAL - - comparing crowds to the NRL doth not a pimple on the rrrrr’s of the AFL make. But - certainly, for 1 game a fortnight in one team towns during summer with precious little competition - especially no competition from the grass roots local competitions - -
however, crowds last season fell on average at TD by 6K for MVFC, pretty stagnant on average in Bris and Syd - - i.e. were dropping until a SFC hosting of MVFC just prior to the finals boosted the dropping average back above the line, and likewise the late season ‘blockbuster’ for Roar hosting SFC. Adelaide was boosed by the ‘event’ game near NYE at the Adelaide Oval - - not quite sure how much should be read into that. Glory is going backwards (to a similar fate as the Sydney Kings???). The growth was in NZ (i.e. Phoenix - - who, really could NOT have been as bad as Auckland), and the mid range for CCM and NJs (i.e. NOT setting new records, but, their lower crowd figures through the season was up - - thus, the median crowd figure was improved - - so, only 2 regional Aust markets in season 3 actually showed any ‘growth’ - - although, that could easily be construed as consolidation rather than growth as it MAY just have been that the supporter base became more regular - - growth is generally relative to higher crowd figures, not just better minimums..
Note also - -FTA vs Pay - - what’s a bet that the split will be that the Socceroos move to FTA, and the HAL remains on Pay.
How would you envisage HAL regular round matches on FTA???? (or, are you talking about a magazine program on SBS - - that might finally draw some ‘positive’ comments from the SBS stable of ‘experts’).
Redb said | May 27th 2008 @ 2:34pm | Report comment
MC
Stuff it, the AFL deserves a lot of credit for its indigenous programs and players. I don’t see a dreamtime match played anywhere else in the country.
Redb
Michael C said | May 27th 2008 @ 2:39pm | Report comment
Lazza -
You’re still ignoring that you have a flawed argument.
THe CODE of soccer in Australia is NOT only 3 years old. It’s been here for 100 odd years.
The HAL is only 3 years old.
You’re still trying to have cake and eat it too.
National Football Code - - there’s a few other pre-requisites.
AND - - the travisty would be for soccer to be granted the ‘crown’ by a technicality.
Because, in each market it is CLEARLY NOT number 1.
It is effectively DWARFED EITHER BY AFL or NRL in each stated.
Lowest common denominator politics is boring, and insulting to the intelligence and really, isn’t progressive.
Redb -
certainly, after seeing the way that the indigenous people have been pushing the Dream Time at the G match - -rather than the AFL pushing it as a cynical marketing excercise - - that match is a major focus event for the community. I know some people talk about the NRL - - but, unfortunately, they just don’t seem to have visible programs happening - - and, the indigenous community NEEDS visible roll models AND visible programs AND visible recognition and basically they NEED POSITIVE VISIBILITY.
Lazza said | May 27th 2008 @ 2:41pm | Report comment
Michael C,
Channel 10 have already expressed interest in the ALeague. They’ll show 1 or 2 games a week and a highlights package, the rest will be on Pay TV. With a NATIONAL market the league is a very attractive proposition. The Socceroos can attract anything from 1 to 4 million viewers. Soccer is a Summer sport remember? Not much else that rates at that time of year.
Michael C said | May 27th 2008 @ 2:48pm | Report comment
Lazza -
you need to remember to separate the socceroos OUT from the HAL. Two separate and mostly unrelated offerings. Similar to Aust Cricket NT vs state cricket - - except - - that the Aust Cricketers ALL DO come directly from - but, rarely, rarely - play for the State TEams.
Channel 10 did great things for basketball too - - and that had a national market/profile.
Questions will be around the timing of coverage. As you say, it is summer sporting doldrums relative to regular weekly programming. Still - I’m pretty sure that basketball was hoping for that logic to shine through for them.
And - - the people who really care about top line soccer will be watching the NH leagues, the EPL etc.
Look - - it’ll just be very interesting to see what the market values it at - - very interesting, and whether it is valued apart from or packaged with the Socceroos.
Eamonn Flanagan said | May 27th 2008 @ 3:06pm | Report comment
So Spiros, you culdn’t resist could you:)
So now have a kick at women’s sport, women’s football.
Once again funny how you established media guys get to spin the yarn. Putting money into Indigenous Communities and Carnivals, all very noble, oh but if should have been at the expense of women’s sport, and of course women’s football.
Because after all women’s sport, and women’s football the second most popular female game in the country gets sooo much coverage from media, government funding and indeed your columns.
Nice one Spiros.
Eamonn Flanagan said | May 27th 2008 @ 3:07pm | Report comment
So Spiros, you culdn’t resist could you:)
So now have a kick at women’s sport, women’s football.
Once again funny how you established media guys get to spin the yarn. Putting money into Indigenous Communities and Carnivals, all very noble, oh but it should have been at the expense of women’s sport, and of course women’s football.
Because after all women’s sport, and women’s football the second most popular female game in the country gets sooo much coverage from media, government funding and indeed your columns.
Nice one Spiros.
Midfielder said | May 27th 2008 @ 3:21pm | Report comment
Well said Eamonn ……………… and I read somewhere once that the Women’s World Cup is bigger (TV audience) than the rugby world cup and gets played in Middle Eastern countries where women’s rights are a genuine topic and helps break down many barriers not only internationally but in Australia as well
Lazza said | May 27th 2008 @ 3:32pm | Report comment
OK, I get it. We don’t count the Socceroos when we are talking about Soccer. We don’t listen to O’Neil, Buckley, Channel 10, Governments and Media Organisations coz they are all biased?
Yes, you guys are right about Soccer’s support being a technicality though. No-one claims it’s the biggest sport in the country but by being a strong No. 2 in every State will make it No. 1 overall.
If Ben Buckley can get ALeague crowds above 20K then it will be No. 1 overall. The real battle is AFL v NRL for the Winter market. The only way either sport can become a NATIONAL game is by knocking the other out. Won’t happen and Soccer will be No. 1 on a technicality! Soccer fans will be happy with that, we don’t need to compete head to head with the Winter sports.
Michael C said | May 27th 2008 @ 3:44pm | Report comment
Lazza -
you seemed to only want to count the last 3 years — which is only relevant to the HAL.
You set that parameter.
The Socceroos have been around much, much longer - or, are you saying the efforts of the Aust NT making the ‘74 WC are part of a past that you choose to ignore?
That you only recognise history post kick off in HAL v1???
The Socceroos are a totally different marketable entity to the HAL.
In many respects - the Socceroos are in competition with the HAL - - because, until the HAL provides at least 3 or 4 of the starting members of the best Socceroos line up - - then, the reality is as we’ve been shown by those in positions of coaching power - - that, you are better off training in Europe than playing in the HAL.
- - - -
BEING NUMBER 2 in every market means that no where is soccer number 1. The national aspect is a bit of a mirage - - whilst - - there is no real national presence - - it’s more theoretical. Because, ON THE GROUND - - in each market - - it IS NOT the dominant player - - and certainly NOT during the peak ratings months. Not sure why, but, that seems to make a difference.
will 20K avg crowds make it? Not so sure about that - - how many games are we talking about? But, bringing Socceroos crowds for 1 off matches into it would be like counting the Beckham match against SFC…..wereas, we know that stuff all of those people went to see SFC - - - and they followed up that promoters dream with…..some of their lowest crowds of the season……
….anyway, off to a client, I’ll check in later to see where people have progressed.
Paul said | May 27th 2008 @ 3:53pm | Report comment
Two points that I would like to bring across to some of you soccer philes:
1) I am not saying that soccer should not get any funding. But I am saying that the funding has been grossly inequitable. Also, I was not suggesting that the AFL get any funding, they are doing quite nicely for money. I am suggesting that indigenous communities receive funding to develop the sport that THEY CHOOSE TO PLAY. How much of the funding in the “Close the gap” will go towards Aussie rules for Aboriginal kids? This is a pertinent question I feel. Aboriginal people choose with their feet to play Aussie Rules, even though they still have access to other sports. Through out history Aboriginal people have had plenty of opportunity to play cricket (eg 1868 Indigenous team led by Tom Wills to England), but they have chosen of their own volition to play Aussie Rules. I am suggesting that we respect their choice and fund things that they are already doing that are positive. I am afraid that so much of the funding of Close the Gap will be paternalistic and used to combat negativity but not to promote positivity.
Spend money planting good trees, instead of money cutting bad trees down.
The children are our future and the majority of money should be spent on building positive programs for them- i.e Funding language programs in native Aboriginal languages aswell as English literacy; that is promoting bilingualism, not white monolingualism AND funding programs in Aussie Rules in indigenous communities- more coaches; football boots; new footballs, new sports grounds and maintenance etc.
2) By all means spend money on funding soccer for indigenous kids also. But fund the sport most of all that they choose to play, most of all. And don’t give the money directly to sporting organisations like the AFL or FFA, they can run independently as businesses themselves. So I blatantly disapprove of funding given directly to the FFA.
———————-
Midfielder,
Let me quote Lazza on here to point out to you why I get defensive on The Roar at times:
“AFL is still struggling to cobble together a NATIONAL competition after 150 years. People around the world and half this country are just not interested.
All our Governments and the majority of Australians want our country to be a force on the World’s biggest sporting stage. Get used to it.”
Get used to it?
They sound like fighting words to me. “This country is not interested in your stupid sport of AFL, get used to the fact that we are now changing to the world game, your days are numbered AFL fans.”
This is the strong subtext that comes across to me.
No wonder I get defensive at times.
Secondly, I was having a think about your own paraphrase of Kevin Rudd with the “other codes taking a back seat” quote. Is it your impression that Kevin Rudd holds this opinion? If so, then we have a national problem. Or is it your opinion that the other codes should take a back seat?
The Substitute said | May 27th 2008 @ 4:12pm | Report comment
Paul,
I agree with you on the Aboriginal funding front. Aboriginals have a huge impact in AFL and funding in that area deserves an improvement.
But in the overall funding figures you quoted, I believe KRudd got it right. The split is reflective of where the two sports are at. AFL is the best-run code in the country and as you pointed out: “they are doing quite nicely for money”. On the other hand, football at the moment is still growing and as such, needs more funding.
I think the government’s role needs to be supporting codes who are down, not propping up the ones that are up.
Lazza said | May 27th 2008 @ 4:12pm | Report comment
Paul, it sounds like you lot do object to Soccer getting any funding. Why does money have to be taken away from Soccer to benefit indigenous kids?
My point was not “fighting words” against AFL. I was making a point why firstly Howard and now Rudd are funding Soccer. Australians want to compete on the World’s biggest sporting stage and Governments love the Worldwide publicity that our country will get. That’s why we fund the AIS as well.
The article tried to argue that we should take money away from Soccer and give it to AFL. Try and get more money for idigenous programs by all means, just don’t starve Soccer of the funds it needs to compete against the World’s best.
Redb said | May 27th 2008 @ 4:20pm | Report comment
and what about rugby union? where is its funding to assist with development. The ARU is in financial trouble , why aren’t the Fed Govt helping them as well.
The Fed Gov’t is picking perceived winners - our PM Kevin Rudd wants to strut the international stage, he forgets the folks in England (home of soccer) don’t vote for him.
Redb
Towser said | May 27th 2008 @ 4:28pm | Report comment
Paul
Just a quick question. More to do with curiosity than anything else.
Do you sleep?
As you seem to be able to post at any given time.
Lazza said | May 27th 2008 @ 4:41pm | Report comment
Redb, you are ignoring the fact that it was Howard and the Liberals that started increased funding for Soccer with the Crawford report. Rudd is just continuing that policy for the reasons I’ve already stated.
Rugby should get more funding because it’s an International sport and we were pretty poor at the last RWC.
If it was the No. 1 Rugby code in this country, like the rest of the Rugby World, it probably would have.
The Substitute said | May 27th 2008 @ 4:54pm | Report comment
Redb,
I forgot to mention that but I totally agree. The ARU need help at the moment and they aren’t receiving anything. I think that is the biggest fault in the federal government’s funding.
Dave said | May 27th 2008 @ 5:08pm | Report comment
In my opinion the Govt should provide enough funding for indigenous children and communities to play the sport of their choice. That would mean giving them some options to try different sports and set up facilities where these sports could be played. The important think here is that money is spent appropriately and without favour. I am sure World Football would love to have the opportunity to engage Indigenous children in large numbers, both girls and boys. Likewise Netball, Basketball, Hockey etc Unfortunately some of the smaller or growing associations don’t have the resources currently to achieve these goals and so kids miss out.
Midfielder said | May 27th 2008 @ 5:18pm | Report comment
Paul
You said refering to me, “Secondly, I was having a think about your own paraphrase of Kevin Rudd with the “other codes taking a back seat” quote. Is it your impression that Kevin Rudd holds this opinion? If so, then we have a national problem. Or is it your opinion that the other codes should take a back seat?”
Paul I said it a play on a play. AFL says 1858 oldest football comp in the world …………. FFA say world Cup 2018 no risk in bag as long as we do ……………..
From this …………… very liberal view of the facts ………… I over state the Rudd statement to prove a point, about simply reading what someone has said, as it may not be the truth just what they want. It has back fired everywhere people have taken my post as true, even when I posted it was a joke. BOY HAS IT BACK FIRED I have got emails from people on a couple of sites asking for time and date of the ABC news broadcast. It was even copied to an ABC blog and accepted as truth.
Paul please forgive my practical joke I will be less suttle next time.
James Connolly said | May 27th 2008 @ 5:30pm | Report comment
No other sport can give Australia as much international exposure and bring in tourist dollars as soccer, least of all AFL.
The high numbers of aboriginal kids playing AFL is mainly because of the blanket media coverage that the AFL pays for to make sure other sports are given only scant coverage.
Of course with channels 9, 7 and 10 pumping AFL AFL AFL into our kids heads morning noon and night, followed by the pages and pages of paid for AFL “news” in all the papers, it’s not surprising the majority of kids will look to AFL.
The ideal situation would be to give aboriginal kids a REAL choice of sports, then we would see which sports they take up.
If they are given a real choice, they will probably choose soccer, like the vast majority of other kids in Australia.
But this not what the AFL wants and fears most. They know the tide has turned, and soccer will only get bigger and stronger.
Midfielder said | May 27th 2008 @ 7:19pm | Report comment
Lazza
Can you expand on the Ch 10 comment …. 2 A-League matches
Paul said | May 27th 2008 @ 8:45pm | Report comment
James Connolly,
You make it sound like some evil religious cult is being pushed on Aboriginal kids because they all want to play Aussie Rules. Oh my…. I can not believe the hatred that I am hearing from you and some people on here.
Dave,
Sure, indigenous kids can have a chance to learn soccer if they want. In fact, obviously some already do. But is it ok if they like Aussie Rules? Does everyone have to play soccer? Cos once again I am starting to get the impression that people are saying soccer is the better game.
Midfielder,
That’s ok man, I forgive you. Please forgive me quoting it before I knew the facts.
Lazza,
I don’t object to soccer getting any funding, but I do object to them getting more than four times as much as AFL related initiatives, over twice as much as Rugby League, and Rugby Union getting nothing at all. Remember, cricket is a far more popular sport in Australia than soccer and yet soccer still nearly got twice as much as cricket.
Subsitute,
I was talking about placing funding in Aboriginal communities where they want it, and not being so paternalistic to tell them how to fix all of their problems.
To All,
We are deceiving ourselves if we think the world will care if we ever win the world cup of soccer. Some will notice for about a few days and then get on with their lives. They will only care that they did not win. They won’t think “boy I’m gonna get on a plane and go to Australia cos they won the world cup.”
It is time that we realise that Australia does not have a global footprint, but we can have a regional one.
Redb said | May 27th 2008 @ 9:31pm | Report comment
Dave,
At least one sport is filling the void in aboriginal kids lives and dnot they love AFL - Australian footy a game not unlike their own marn grook - it is pure synergy.
Redb
Dave said | May 27th 2008 @ 9:43pm | Report comment
Redb
Good luck to those kids that play AFL as it gives them some enjoyment and fitness. Would be nice for a few of them to be able have the option to take the lead of Jade North and represent their country on the world stage. Nothing bigger than playing in the WC and hopefully Jade will get that opportunity in SA 2010. As long as they are involved in some meaningful activity it doesnt really matter but in a democracy choice has always been a good thing. It seems the Govt agrees.
Midfielder said | May 27th 2008 @ 10:24pm | Report comment
Dave
Redb is right …………… its not the AFL’s fault they have put a big effort in.
Dave that so few take up football when their body shape and natural balance indicates they should, is more damming edivence of how poor football has been run in the past.
But more recently Frank Farina has been sent on NT tours, the history of the many Indigenous players to play for Australia is being explained
Having said this the NT media has been essentially a two sport media, cricket & AFL ……….. often little balance but its a small town.
Harking back to a point I made a while ago is all sports especially football codes help Indigenous people and it is not unique to the AFL and therefore I can see no reason why the AFL needs special funding in this area.
Paul said | May 28th 2008 @ 1:32am | Report comment
Midfielder,
You said:
“Harking back to a point I made a while ago is all sports especially football codes help Indigenous people and it is not unique to the AFL and therefore I can see no reason why the AFL needs special funding in this area.”
I have tried to say this a few times now. I am NOT suggesting funding to the Australian Football League. I am suggesting funding to Aboriginal communities that play Aussie Rules Football.
Dave, Midfielder
If these communities choose to play Aussie Rules Football please don’t criticise them for it. They have freedom of choice. Also I think it is rather ignorant of you and Dave to suggest that the reason they don’t play soccer is they haven’t had the chance, this is silly. Why would they not have had the chance? I also grew up in a dominant Aussie Rules culture, yet my school had both an Aussie Rules and soccer team. I had the chance to play them both and I made my choice, without coaxing from anyone.
I am accused of being biased against soccer, but surely on this occasion you have shown your colours as being bigoted against Aussie Rules.
True Tah said | May 28th 2008 @ 8:27am | Report comment
James Connolly,
you say that most Aboriginal kids would choose to play soccer above all other sports just like all other kids - a number of Aboriginal soccer players have been mentioned here, and you would like all Aborigines to follow in theri footsteps.
I would be be willing to bet that even if they had the choice, most of these kids would still kick a Sherrin around as opposed to a soccer ball. I don’t think they would care about the fact soccer players earn the equivalent of the GNP of some Pacific Island nations in a year - they simply love playing AFL or league, why should they be told they have to play soccer?
You mention blanket coverage of AFL, isn’t this similar to England where its all soccer, soccer, soccer?
And Im sure a substantial number of kids playing soccer are doing so because their mum wouldn’t let them play AFL, league or union - do these kids have a choice? I was in that category myself, but I switched to taekwondo and rugby as soon as I realized that there were sports out there apart from soccer.
Michael C said | May 28th 2008 @ 9:06am | Report comment
Generally you get what you deserve.
Soccer in Australia has been run awfully - - for a long, long, long time.
AFL - - BY COMPARISON - - has been run well (despite a long list of gripes that Redb, Paul and myself could put forward to show how poorly run the AFL/VFL has been).
On that relativity - - soccer must have REALLY been butchered - - and, I gather it has at times.
So - - you get what you deserve.
Except - - suddenly the Crawford report rebuilds the National Soccer league, and the feds pump in money to boost it along - - soccer becomes a pet project.
Does it deserve this?
Has Australian soccer ever been so proactive and forward thinking as to deserve ‘credits’? No - - it’s been fractured, it’s been headless, it’s been souless.
And - - soccer is now seeminly only moving forward NOT via any actions of its own - - but, because it’s been given an almight SHUNT by the Federal Government.
That might be all and well if there was a void, a vacuum in the Australian sporting landscape - -
but - we already have :
successful high profile national football teams : Wallabies
successful high profile national football leagues : AFL, lesser extent NRL - - the complementary nature is a total national coverage.
successful high profile international events : Tennis Open, F1 Grand Prix, Motorcycle Grant Prix etc
success in world stage sports : Olympics, Golf, Tennis, Surfing, Swimming etc etc
So - - - the Federal Govt - - as Govt’s seemingly like to do - - despite claiming that deregulated free markets are the way to go - - along come Govts and meddle and threaten to destabalise the market forces in play.
Michael C said | May 28th 2008 @ 9:26am | Report comment
James Connolly - -
I think you’ll find there’s an awful lot more countries and regions in the world with blanket coverage of soccer and ONLY soccer available as choice of sport. Gee - - even in Argentina they now have a Govt agency pushing alternative sports (including Aust Footy and Gaelic footy - - ‘cos, their kids have actually been starved of choice).
Trust me - - growing up over the last 30 years, even in a country town 3 hours from Melbourne there was always a soccer/hockey pitch at school, soccer clubs and competition in town - - and, back then, the only LIVE footy was the VFL grand final. There was EPL soccer on the ABC, and, yeah, we could watch some edited highlights of the VFL on ‘The Winners’ or ‘The Big League’ - - - but, WITHOUT blanket TV coverage - I never knew anyone who didn’t prefer PLAYING footy to soccer - - because, it was just SOOO unnatural to NOT use your hands as well as feet. Soccer WAS ALWAYS available - - just not as much fun. Soccer balls were always available, again, though, a bit like a basketball - - just a little bit boring. A bit like the difference between playing cricket with a tennis ball and then using a real cricket ball (or, at very least a half shaved tennis ball, or one with an insulation tape ’seam’……..). That was my experiecne. We had totally non-sporting primary school teaches and were left to our own devices. High School - - we were ‘forced’ to play everything - I guess that was the point.
Now - - there’s only so many countries that HAVE provided natural choice over the years regarding ‘football’, and, gee, in America, Canada, New Zealand, Ireland and Australia - - there surely must be sufficient proof to you that in a free choice society that soccer actually struggles for the level of superiority that it sustains in those many countries where a valid alternative has never existed.
BTW- - from the AFL perspective - - we tend to get BETTER players if they’ve grown up playing a variety of sports. We don’t require exclusivity of pursuit from age 5 or 6. Basketball was 20 years ago perceived as a threat and in fact has been beneficial, producing a better quality of athletic and skilled ruckmen. Players who have played junior rugby as well as footy have come through with great mixes of skills and attributes. So - - don’t worry too much that we live in fear.
What WOULD be nice would be some fed govt recognition of the leading role the AFL has played on the front of racial vilification and successful indigenous programs - - not purely about creating footballers, but creating community leaders. And, if you took note of the Ted Egan link - - footy HAS worked. It DOES work. Funding in this area - with established proven and successful programs is therefore NOT speculative. And - - SHOULD be expanded upon.
Do a google on ‘indigenous football academy Australia’ - - - first X number of pages all Aust Footy academy related.
http://www.clontarffootball.com/
AIMS OF THE CLONTARF FOUNDATION
The target group of the Clontarf Foundation Academies is one of the most ‘at risk’ groups in contemporary Australian society.
Therefore, as a result of the Intervention Program offered by the Clontarf Foundation and the various Academies, participants will:
ATTEND SCHOOL REGULARLY
RE-ENTER EDUCATION AFTER PROLONGED ABSENCES
ACHIEVE RETENTION RATE ABOVE STATE AVERAGES
HAVE ENHANCED SELF-ESTEEM AND SELF CONCEPT
USE KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE GAINED TO MAKE HEALTHY LIFESTYLE DECISIONS E.G. EXERCISE, DIET AND NUTRITION, ALCOHOL AND SUBSTANCE ABUSE
SET GOALS AND PERSEVERE TO ACHIEVE THEM
HAVE REDUCED CASES OF CRIMINAL RE-OFFENDING
ACHIEVE IMPROVED ACADEMIC RESULTS (BASIC LITERACY AND NUMERACY THROUGH TO TEE)
DEVELOP A GREATER UNDERSTANDING OF, AND ACCESS TO, THE EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNTIES AVAILABLE TO THEM
RECOGNISE THAT THEY CAN PLAY A ROLE IN THE RECONCILIATION PROCESS
DEVELOP FOOTBALL SKILLS AND TRAINING HABITS THAT WILL ENABLE THEM TO COMPETE IN COMPETITIONS THAT SUIT THEIR SKILL LEVEL (INCLUDING ELITE COMPETITIONS SUCH AS WAFL A