Federal government should increase funds to Indigenous AFL

NUFCMVFC said  | May 27th 2008 @ 8:58am | Report comment

AFL has plenty of money, can easily spend the money it is using on South Africa on Aborigines itself and in the Northern Territory, if they are indeed hard core AFL followers than they are AFL constituents and it is the AFL’s responsibility, find it a bit of an awkward argument that someohoe giving money to football has been strangely morphed into an argument about Rudd then somehow neglecting Indiginous Australians.

Also, what about indigineous Australians wanting to follow in Travis Dodds and Jade Norths footsteps and play for the Socceroos? AFL doesen’t have some kind of monopoly over indigineous Australians. I can twist the same logic around and cite the refugees in the Joeys squad and say that under investment in Football for years is bad because it had hindered the integration of migrants into Australian society, after all, they live and breathe football, wear association football shirts and so a good way to welcome them into the country is via a local version of a platform they are familiar with. I find the talk about Rudds “preference” and the whingeing surrounding a bit rich considering the preferential treatment other sports have always been given over football, I recall seeing Premier Brumby at some Dubai AFL junket but never at Melbournes ACL matches, including against our Japanese sister city Osaka

Also, the fact that Football for once has gotten a bit more money is pretty much a first, but it is important now because as part of the AFC, through the Sport of football we are directly engaging with a region that will become increasingly important economic partners and it is important there is the infrastructure etc in place in order to be able to facilitate those ties, we will be having womens and youth teams competing in Asian competitions and that now needs to be provided for

Redb said  | May 27th 2008 @ 9:27am | Report comment

“AFL has plenty of money, can easily spend the money it is using on South Africa on Aborigines itself”

You must be a Krudd voter to think like that. What’s next let’s tax the AFL for being successful and give it to FFA.

I don’t think the AFL or FFA should complain, what about the ARU funding for a rugby academy in Brisbane promised by Howard or RL’s hall of famethat was to be built from Canberra money - Rudd turned off the tap.

Rudd’s mandate is not to pick one sport over another - he should fund all football codes/sports in a balanced way.

Redb

Forgetmenot said  | May 27th 2008 @ 10:57am | Report comment

Wonderful article. I had been waiting for an article as such in a major paper but alas i didn’t see any.
It seems to me that Rudd is just like any politician and is only concerned about the short term positives that he can show to the Australian public.
Can you imagine the economic windfall that Australia would receive if the government helped promote football around the world. We could have hundreds of millions of dollars coming in to the country from overseas every year if only a small percentage of the world started following AFL.

I myself am considering joining a political party that champions the cause of the true blue Australian, lets try to make the next fedreral election about politicians whowill do what it itakes to improve Australia, not improve their own credentials.

Midfielder said  | May 27th 2008 @ 11:26am | Report comment

Redb

Will get back to you with links latter in the week.

True Tah said  | May 27th 2008 @ 12:17pm | Report comment

Midfielder,

I think you will find that quite a few of the South Sydney Rabbitohs are of Polynesian descent, and are not Aboriginal.

I also believe that both Arthur Beetson and Mark Ella captained the national sides of their respective sporting codes at some stage, therefore negating your claim that soccer is the only football code to have an indigeonus Australian as captain.

Lazza,

we already win enough medals at the Olympics without including our traditional sports, and against countries with far more than our population. Soccer is England’s number one game, but funnily enough the Poms Olympic medal count doesn’t suggest that having soccer as your number one game improves your Olympic performances. The US and China constantly appear in the top couple of medal winning nations, and neither of this could be attributed to soccer.

In any event, the fact that the likes of rugby, cricket and AFL are not included does not phase me, it would be impractical to play rugby and AFL anyway, these sports are too physically demanding to play effectively within a 2 week competition.

Rudd basically seems to want all Australians to play soccer because it is the world game - and also the most generic team game. The phrase which basically springs to mind of soccer to me is “If everybody looked the same”.

My sport got the short end of the stick when Rudd was handing it out, but I think this will force rugby to lift its game, and management to be lift their game. Historically rugby got bugger all support anyway.

Lazza said  | May 27th 2008 @ 12:28pm | Report comment

True Tah,

Football is our only truly NATIONAL football code as well as being the World Game, just ask John O’Neil. I’m not saying Football has to take money away from other sports but it needs to be funded like the AIS so we can compete on the World Stage.

That’s my point about the Olympics. Even though none of our traditional sports are included we deem it important to compete in the World’s 2nd biggest sporting event.

Redb said  | May 27th 2008 @ 1:00pm | Report comment

Lazza,

“AFL is still struggling to cobble together a NATIONAL competition after 150 years. People around the world and half this country are just not interested.”

Well half the country is very interested including the 550,000 members of AFL clubs around the country.

AFL is an Australian game, so why the hell is the Australian Government so carelessly forgetting that fact. They ratified Kyoto as well, but do they really fully understand what is involved for Australia to comply?. No, its Rudd the human headline - same thing with the soccer WC.

I don’t wish to overly politicise a sports forum, but lets face it, Kevin Rudd is inviting this criticism due to his love of playing the interntaitonal statesman - and yes only soccer deilvers that ability - its Australians that vote him into office.

Your attitude is one of the reasons many fans of AFL in particular rail against soccer - you want Australia to become just another number on the FIFA ranking list. Why don’t you care about Australia in hockey, basketball,etc?

How is soccer the only truly national code? - Do you have teams in Darwin, Hobart, Canberra? AFL has teams in Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane, Adelaide and Perth, same as the A League but with much bigger crowds, TV ratings and popular support.

Half the country are very passionate about our Australian game, the deeper this goes the more entrenched we become on this issue.

Redb

Redb said  | May 27th 2008 @ 1:47pm | Report comment

Sweeney Report - Sports Interest Ratings 2006-07

Australian Rules - 57% up 2 (from last year).
Soccer - 51% up 1.
RL - 42% level
RU - 40%. level

Looks like its soccer that only half the country are interested in

Redb

Redb said  | May 27th 2008 @ 1:53pm | Report comment

Lazza,

Ben Buckley and Jon O’Neill hold/held positions within the FFA - no surprise at their slant.

After 3 years - you mean it went from nothing to nationwide participation in 3 years or do you mean the A League after 3 years - If latter, refer TV ratings and crowds of AFL v A League. If former and support and interest in soccer is so great refer to crowds and TV ratings for AFL v A League.

I watch a variety of sports this article has nothing to do with viewer habits.

Redb

Redb said  | May 27th 2008 @ 2:02pm | Report comment

MC,

trying to make friends with these soccer people but they just keep tripping over their own arrogance about the world game compared to our puny little Australian game.

The fact is krudd has opened a can of worms with his attempt to add to more international statesman resume and cred err… crud.

Redb

p.s. Why ‘flog’ a dead horse MC.

Redb said  | May 27th 2008 @ 2:18pm | Report comment

Spiro,

Good points.

I had the fortune to visit the Tiwis Islands on a fishing trip a few years ago and was amazed at their passion for AFL. Most had never been off the island but they all had their favourite teams and players. The local pub (open for just two hours a day) had a Carlton room, Collingwood room and Essendon room. I quickly advised them the first two rooms were not requried. They love their footy and play the game with great flair. I think the AFL has done a fantastic job in reducing racism in sport and introducing pathways to a better life (except for the cold winter nights in Melbourne).

Redb

Lazza said  | May 27th 2008 @ 2:25pm | Report comment

Redb,

That 57% support for AFL is 78% in the Southern States and about 28% in NSW/QLD. The 42% interest in the Rugby codes drops to about 18% in the Southern States.

The 51% interest in Soccer is 51% around the entire country, hence our only truly NATIONAL Football code.

Redb said  | May 27th 2008 @ 2:34pm | Report comment

MC

Stuff it, the AFL deserves a lot of credit for its indigenous programs and players. I don’t see a dreamtime match played anywhere else in the country.

Redb

Lazza said  | May 27th 2008 @ 2:41pm | Report comment

Michael C,

Channel 10 have already expressed interest in the ALeague. They’ll show 1 or 2 games a week and a highlights package, the rest will be on Pay TV. With a NATIONAL market the league is a very attractive proposition. The Socceroos can attract anything from 1 to 4 million viewers. Soccer is a Summer sport remember? Not much else that rates at that time of year.

Eamonn Flanagan said  | May 27th 2008 @ 3:06pm | Report comment

So Spiros, you culdn’t resist could you:)

So now have a kick at women’s sport, women’s football.
Once again funny how you established media guys get to spin the yarn. Putting money into Indigenous Communities and Carnivals, all very noble, oh but if should have been at the expense of women’s sport, and of course women’s football.

Because after all women’s sport, and women’s football the second most popular female game in the country gets sooo much coverage from media, government funding and indeed your columns.

Nice one Spiros.

Midfielder said  | May 27th 2008 @ 3:21pm | Report comment

Well said Eamonn ……………… and I read somewhere once that the Women’s World Cup is bigger (TV audience) than the rugby world cup and gets played in Middle Eastern countries where women’s rights are a genuine topic and helps break down many barriers not only internationally but in Australia as well

Michael C said  | May 27th 2008 @ 3:44pm | Report comment

Lazza -

you seemed to only want to count the last 3 years — which is only relevant to the HAL.

You set that parameter.

The Socceroos have been around much, much longer - or, are you saying the efforts of the Aust NT making the ‘74 WC are part of a past that you choose to ignore?
That you only recognise history post kick off in HAL v1???

The Socceroos are a totally different marketable entity to the HAL.

In many respects - the Socceroos are in competition with the HAL - - because, until the HAL provides at least 3 or 4 of the starting members of the best Socceroos line up - - then, the reality is as we’ve been shown by those in positions of coaching power - - that, you are better off training in Europe than playing in the HAL.

- - - -

BEING NUMBER 2 in every market means that no where is soccer number 1. The national aspect is a bit of a mirage - - whilst - - there is no real national presence - - it’s more theoretical. Because, ON THE GROUND - - in each market - - it IS NOT the dominant player - - and certainly NOT during the peak ratings months. Not sure why, but, that seems to make a difference.

will 20K avg crowds make it? Not so sure about that - - how many games are we talking about? But, bringing Socceroos crowds for 1 off matches into it would be like counting the Beckham match against SFC…..wereas, we know that stuff all of those people went to see SFC - - - and they followed up that promoters dream with…..some of their lowest crowds of the season……

….anyway, off to a client, I’ll check in later to see where people have progressed.

The Substitute said  | May 27th 2008 @ 4:12pm | Report comment

Paul,

I agree with you on the Aboriginal funding front. Aboriginals have a huge impact in AFL and funding in that area deserves an improvement.

But in the overall funding figures you quoted, I believe KRudd got it right. The split is reflective of where the two sports are at. AFL is the best-run code in the country and as you pointed out: “they are doing quite nicely for money”. On the other hand, football at the moment is still growing and as such, needs more funding.

I think the government’s role needs to be supporting codes who are down, not propping up the ones that are up.

Redb said  | May 27th 2008 @ 4:20pm | Report comment

and what about rugby union? where is its funding to assist with development. The ARU is in financial trouble , why aren’t the Fed Govt helping them as well.

The Fed Gov’t is picking perceived winners - our PM Kevin Rudd wants to strut the international stage, he forgets the folks in England (home of soccer) don’t vote for him.

Redb

Lazza said  | May 27th 2008 @ 4:41pm | Report comment

Redb, you are ignoring the fact that it was Howard and the Liberals that started increased funding for Soccer with the Crawford report. Rudd is just continuing that policy for the reasons I’ve already stated.

Rugby should get more funding because it’s an International sport and we were pretty poor at the last RWC.

If it was the No. 1 Rugby code in this country, like the rest of the Rugby World, it probably would have.

Dave said  | May 27th 2008 @ 5:08pm | Report comment

In my opinion the Govt should provide enough funding for indigenous children and communities to play the sport of their choice. That would mean giving them some options to try different sports and set up facilities where these sports could be played. The important think here is that money is spent appropriately and without favour. I am sure World Football would love to have the opportunity to engage Indigenous children in large numbers, both girls and boys. Likewise Netball, Basketball, Hockey etc Unfortunately some of the smaller or growing associations don’t have the resources currently to achieve these goals and so kids miss out.

James Connolly said  | May 27th 2008 @ 5:30pm | Report comment

No other sport can give Australia as much international exposure and bring in tourist dollars as soccer, least of all AFL.

The high numbers of aboriginal kids playing AFL is mainly because of the blanket media coverage that the AFL pays for to make sure other sports are given only scant coverage.

Of course with channels 9, 7 and 10 pumping AFL AFL AFL into our kids heads morning noon and night, followed by the pages and pages of paid for AFL “news” in all the papers, it’s not surprising the majority of kids will look to AFL.

The ideal situation would be to give aboriginal kids a REAL choice of sports, then we would see which sports they take up.

If they are given a real choice, they will probably choose soccer, like the vast majority of other kids in Australia.

But this not what the AFL wants and fears most. They know the tide has turned, and soccer will only get bigger and stronger.

Paul said  | May 27th 2008 @ 8:45pm | Report comment

James Connolly,

You make it sound like some evil religious cult is being pushed on Aboriginal kids because they all want to play Aussie Rules. Oh my…. I can not believe the hatred that I am hearing from you and some people on here.

Dave,

Sure, indigenous kids can have a chance to learn soccer if they want. In fact, obviously some already do. But is it ok if they like Aussie Rules? Does everyone have to play soccer? Cos once again I am starting to get the impression that people are saying soccer is the better game.

Midfielder,

That’s ok man, I forgive you. Please forgive me quoting it before I knew the facts.

Lazza,

I don’t object to soccer getting any funding, but I do object to them getting more than four times as much as AFL related initiatives, over twice as much as Rugby League, and Rugby Union getting nothing at all. Remember, cricket is a far more popular sport in Australia than soccer and yet soccer still nearly got twice as much as cricket.

Subsitute,

I was talking about placing funding in Aboriginal communities where they want it, and not being so paternalistic to tell them how to fix all of their problems.

To All,

We are deceiving ourselves if we think the world will care if we ever win the world cup of soccer. Some will notice for about a few days and then get on with their lives. They will only care that they did not win. They won’t think “boy I’m gonna get on a plane and go to Australia cos they won the world cup.”

It is time that we realise that Australia does not have a global footprint, but we can have a regional one.

Dave said  | May 27th 2008 @ 9:43pm | Report comment

Redb

Good luck to those kids that play AFL as it gives them some enjoyment and fitness. Would be nice for a few of them to be able have the option to take the lead of Jade North and represent their country on the world stage. Nothing bigger than playing in the WC and hopefully Jade will get that opportunity in SA 2010. As long as they are involved in some meaningful activity it doesnt really matter but in a democracy choice has always been a good thing. It seems the Govt agrees.

Paul said  | May 28th 2008 @ 1:32am | Report comment

Midfielder,

You said:

“Harking back to a point I made a while ago is all sports especially football codes help Indigenous people and it is not unique to the AFL and therefore I can see no reason why the AFL needs special funding in this area.”

I have tried to say this a few times now. I am NOT suggesting funding to the Australian Football League. I am suggesting funding to Aboriginal communities that play Aussie Rules Football.

Dave, Midfielder

If these communities choose to play Aussie Rules Football please don’t criticise them for it. They have freedom of choice. Also I think it is rather ignorant of you and Dave to suggest that the reason they don’t play soccer is they haven’t had the chance, this is silly. Why would they not have had the chance? I also grew up in a dominant Aussie Rules culture, yet my school had both an Aussie Rules and soccer team. I had the chance to play them both and I made my choice, without coaxing from anyone.

I am accused of being biased against soccer, but surely on this occasion you have shown your colours as being bigoted against Aussie Rules.

Michael C said  | May 28th 2008 @ 9:06am | Report comment

Generally you get what you deserve.

Soccer in Australia has been run awfully - - for a long, long, long time.

AFL - - BY COMPARISON - - has been run well (despite a long list of gripes that Redb, Paul and myself could put forward to show how poorly run the AFL/VFL has been).

On that relativity - - soccer must have REALLY been butchered - - and, I gather it has at times.

So - - you get what you deserve.

Except - - suddenly the Crawford report rebuilds the National Soccer league, and the feds pump in money to boost it along - - soccer becomes a pet project.

Does it deserve this?

Has Australian soccer ever been so proactive and forward thinking as to deserve ‘credits’? No - - it’s been fractured, it’s been headless, it’s been souless.

And - - soccer is now seeminly only moving forward NOT via any actions of its own - - but, because it’s been given an almight SHUNT by the Federal Government.

That might be all and well if there was a void, a vacuum in the Australian sporting landscape - -

but - we already have :
successful high profile national football teams : Wallabies
successful high profile national football leagues : AFL, lesser extent NRL - - the complementary nature is a total national coverage.
successful high profile international events : Tennis Open, F1 Grand Prix, Motorcycle Grant Prix etc
success in world stage sports : Olympics, Golf, Tennis, Surfing, Swimming etc etc

So - - - the Federal Govt - - as Govt’s seemingly like to do - - despite claiming that deregulated free markets are the way to go - - along come Govts and meddle and threaten to destabalise the market forces in play.

Zach said  | May 28th 2008 @ 1:29pm | Report comment

Soccer is the world’s richest sport. FIFA is a billion dollar global monolith. All the Australian franchises are privately owned and the FFA is headed by Australia’s second richest man. Why are taxpayers subsidising soccer’s attempt to colonise our sports grounds?
Not only is the Federal government favouring soccer, the Victorian government is building them a 270 million dollar stadium on inner city parkland entirely at taxpayers expense. When the AFL built Waverley Park, they did it with their own money and successive Victorian governments dudded them time and time again, first by reneging on public transport, then later outlawing them from playing the Grand Final there, and when the AFL finally gave up and wanted to sell it to fund Docklands, the current government put a heritage order on it!!!. Now the Queensland government will not even let the AFL play games at a stadium they want to build with private money on the Gold Coast. They are all Labor governments and they all seem to happy to fund anything as long as it is not Australian Rules.
The governments of other countries protect their cultural heritage, but not ours. Giving money to soccer wouid be like the French government giving money to Hollywood in order to wipe out their own film industry. What next - will we start susidising McDonalds? Cultural cringe alive and welll in Australia!

Dave said  | May 28th 2008 @ 4:58pm | Report comment

Paul

Can you highlight in my posts where l have been critical of Indigenous kids playing AFL?? I think your anti football bias gets in the way of your ability to read what is written. Dont want to give the kids choice in their activity?

Zach said  | May 28th 2008 @ 5:12pm | Report comment

Dave
There was 2 million for Punt Road and not much more for the Western Oval. Compare that to 30 million plus from Rudd for soccer and a cool quarter of a billion from Brumby and you will have to agree that things are skewed a bit against the indigenous game. As for colonising our sports grounds, it’s simple. Soccer is an English game and Australian Rules is our own. Just like the First Fleet the colonisers want to take over but this time they want the locals to pay for it. Why doesn’t soccer put it’s money where its mouth is?

Redb said  | May 28th 2008 @ 8:18pm | Report comment

Dave,

Punt Road and the Western Oval are training venues - not used for match day and are not stadiums per se.

Have a look in the mirror when you accuse others of bias - you wrote “You obviously dont live in Melb where it is AFL, AFL and AFL” - you imply that is a bad thing. In New Zealand its rugby rugby rugby, in America its gridiron, gridiron, gridiron, Canada,etc.

This is not Europe its Australia. Asia, Africa and South America only have soccer as their choice - its soccer, soccer, soccer.

This is Australia, not a satelite of Europe. We should stay fiercely independent and maintain what makes us unique in the world. Australian aboriginies playing our own game - no better synergy than that and if the government has an opportunity to help of course it should.

Redb

Redb said  | May 29th 2008 @ 8:27am | Report comment

Dave,

This whole media saturation thing is worth a look. As you acknowledge in Melbourne, AFL dominates and it so it should it is by far the most popular sport in this town.

Redb

Redb said  | May 29th 2008 @ 9:09am | Report comment

Eamonn,

The AFL’s Auskick is doing a similiar job at junior level - its a lot of fun for kids.

Redb

Michael C said  | May 29th 2008 @ 9:49am | Report comment

Dave -

The AFL training venues ARE COMMUNITY venues - - they are the ‘attached’ strings for these projects.

In March the State Govt announced $10.5million - - across 9 teams. Hmmmm, compare that to ~$300million for a free stadium plus the ongoing benefits of not negotiating stadium deals with private owners - - for ONE soccer club, and ONE RL club, and not much on the Union front. About 30,000 members combined - - that’s about $10,000 per member.
9 AFL clubs - - around 33,000K members on average - - close enough to 300,000 members - - and, they get $10.5million - - - $35 a pop. Now……$35 vs $10,000…….hmmm……..

And - how was this money divided - and spent?
RICHMOND
- $2.5 million to support development of a new indoor facility, ground improvements and drought-proofing at Punt Road oval.

NORTH MELBOURNE
- $2 million for completion of new football department facility at Arden Street.

ESSENDON
- $1.5 million for ground reconfiguration at Windy Hill.

MELBOURNE
- $1 million to assist Melbourne football club with relocation to Rectangular Stadium.

CARLTON
- $1 million to support the redevelopment of MC Labour Park.

HAWTHORN
- $1 million for new water recycling technology at Waverly Park.

WESTERN BULLDOGS
- $0.5 million for multi-court community indoor sports facility at Whitten Oval.

COLLINGWOOD
- $0.5 million to improve training facilities at the Lexus Centre supporting Collingwood football club’s relationship with the Melbourne Vixens netball team.

ST KILDA
- $0.5 million to help St Kilda open up Moorabbin Reserve facilities for community access.

btw - the AFL is putting about $1.5million into Arden Street redevelopment, and apparently, it’s also going to be the State Fencing Centre!!!!! I wonder how many paid up members they have???

The Punt Road project includes drought proofing - - well, good move that one.

Now - the $20million Whitten Oval upgrade - - what does it involve? Well - firstly, $3m from State Govt, then other funding from the AFL (again), Fed Govt, City of Maribyrnong and the ‘Forever Foundation’.

The project includes an Elite Learning Centre with sports science laboratories; football training and recovery amenities, administration and retail facilities; community facilities including function rooms and cafes; indoor sports facilities and improved parkland.

“Importantly for women’s sport, this redevelopment will also provide a dedicated home ground for the Victorian Women’s Football League,” Mr Merlino said.

and later :

3:22 PM Tue 23 October, 2007

The centre will have 110 childcare places and is expected to open late next year. It will be operated by a not-for-profit organisation called Early Childhood management services (ECMS).

Okay - - so, how much of the ‘benefit’ is directly and solely aimed at an AFL club - - and, how much is aimed at providing a shared community facility?

Do you begrudge that funding? Just how much do you figure is ‘propping up’ clubs balance sheets? How much is going into the pockets of players? This is ongoing investment in communities and ensuring that AFL clubs share are a beneficial relationship with their ‘local’ community. Not a bad notion - - really - - is it?

btw - don’t forget, the AFL put how much into Telstra Dome and still won’t be ‘gifted’ it until 2025 - - by which time the private owners will have extracted hundreds of millions - mostly from the AFL - - relative to club stadium deals - - that, by comparison to the free ride being gifted to Storm and MVFC (note, Storm are envisaged to be self funding once they get to this new venue - - surprise surprise - - how many AFL clubs near the bottom would have zero financial issues were the State Govt to buy out TD and gift that to the AFL)

And the MCG - - don’t forget - - it’s MCC property that. The grandstands, only about $77m of state funds, stuff all from the Feds (there anti unions offer prior to the Cwlth Games was rejected by the State Govt - - although $15m went to the new National Sports Museum). The burden of the MCG is carried by the MCC - - and most of their value is via the AFL as the major tennant. The AFL ‘industry’ is doing an awful lot of infrastructure ‘building’ with stuff all Govt help - - -in Victoria - - the heartland. And, yet - - there are those who seem to begrudge a few minor hand outs to venues that ARE AFL training venues BUT ARE ALSO community access facilities……….that, I presume is the domain of ignorant folk.

btw - - have you driven past Arden St in the past 8 years - - the brick walls came down some time ago, it’s been opened up for quite a while as a community access oval and nice grassy embankments - - - heck, my local club has more privacy when training.

The one thing the AFL has really done is to embrace community partnerships - -and, the AFL Victoria seminar series run for the benefit of local clubs - includes seminars on funding and grants that further encourage community partnerships and for clubs to engage beyond just the ‘footy’ community. It’s all about seeking alternative funding, and to be more than just a footy club.

Michael C said  | May 29th 2008 @ 5:08pm | Report comment

Dave -

well, Yes.

For a comparatively small amount of money - - as you’d agree $10.5 million across 9 clubs is a pittance -
Now - the question of whether the ‘community aspect is largely a side issue’ - - - I’d argue that the 110 place childcare centre as part of the Whitten Oval development is hardly a side issue - - it’s addressing a key shortfall in that Western Suburbs area.
I would agree that the Victorian Fencing Association HQ might be seen by some as a side issue - - but, again, shows that COMMUNITY PARTNERSHIPS are the key factor.
Yes - AFL clubs get to use the facilities. As do the cricket clubs that share the facilities - - as does anyone else sharing the facilities. That’s what ‘community’ facilities are about. I know of many people who have run work related functions and seminars at Windy Hill for example - - it works remarkably well to have high use facilities. Remarkably well.

$77million into the MCG was in the lead up to the Commonwealth Games - - the new Northern Stand development cost $434 million - - so, don’t whinge about that - - without the Commonwealth Games - - do you think the state money would’ve bee so forthcoming? (I’m actually surprised they didn’t heritage list the old (3rd) Members stand just to stop it!!).

Let’s wait and see on the RU component at the new rectangular stadium.

I wouldn’t begrudge it IF the same conditions applied as at Telstra Dome - for example - - but, for the AFL to be closeted at a venue run for profit by private operators compared to the free reigh that the square pitch boys will have - - that is a huge, huge, huge difference. My main point always is - - the ongoing benefit, and the AFL is suffering because the State Govt feels able to gift a stadium now, but, weren’t able to 10 years ago.

Good luck to MVFC, and Storm (should they be able to proove once and for all whether they really belong - -i.e. there’ll be no excuses anymore, if they still only draw 14K max - - good luck to them).

Soccer deserves its fair share - - but, so to does the AFL.

And don’t forget the massive pay days that soccer get when given access to the MCG - - which, stuff all soccer money has gone into - - it’s the ground the Footy primarily and cricket secondly has built.
I’d just like to see this wonderful world game that throws so much money at individual players actually throw a little money at building a venue or two for itself…….that’s all. You can’t cry poor when you spend millions on overseas players, or pay Juventus $5m appearance fees.

Dave said  | May 29th 2008 @ 5:48pm | Report comment

Michael C
As l said l dont begrudge the AFL its “community”developments. Football here obviously doesnt have the money that is thrown about in Europe but is getting stronger and one day soon may be able to pitch in with some cash for grounds. We are all taxpayers so deserve some of the dough.
BTW were the AFL forced to sell Artic Park? Was it their choice to leave Waverley for TD? Thought they decided to cash in and swap games to TD? If so seems they have made some of their own issues there.

Michael C said  | May 30th 2008 @ 8:57am | Report comment

Dave -

poor old Arctic park - - the AFL were not forced per se to sell it, however, they’d been thwarted by the lack of promised Public Transport links, and thus the ground was left half completed - - personally, I’d have loved it to stay - - but, I’m originally from East Gippsland and it was nicely accessable from that side of Melbourne. A lot of people hated it, but I didn’t mind, but, then, I guess I was rarely there when it was packed out - and getting 75,000 people IN and OUT was probably such a huge, huge issue that the prospect of a ground in the CBD edge right on top of a major central railway station, looking over the ‘docks’ and the central plank of the biggest new urban develolpment project in probably the cities history - - I guess you can see why they were able to be talked into rescuing the project when it looked set to fail. (perhaps the Govt owes the AFL a bit in return - - if the AFL hadn’t have come on board, the stadium was dead in the water).

I reckon the AFL was perhaps sold a couple of lines about Docklands - - in retrospect - - the AFL might look a bit silly for going the path they did, however - - who knew 10 or so years ago that within 10 years time the State Govt WOULD be willing to sling $300million to a rectangle stadium that will only get used once a fortnight for any part of the year…….

…..compared to a Telstra Dome that gets used 2 to 3 times a week all through winter, and thus far has carried soccer once a fortnight, and held the odd cricket match, Rugby Union and League BIG games that presumably will still be there for the 55K capacity…..etc…etc……

When you push the taxpayer line - - I can’t help but think that Telstra Dome would’ve been a far, far, far greater taxpayer owned asset.

But - - the standard is set now - re. the new stadium, so, I reckon the AFL would be mad to NOT go at the State Govt for as much as they can get. And, if the Govt won’t buy out TD, then, get as much as humanly possible to make the ‘lives’ of the clubs a little easier.

actually, on the footy show last night, James Brayshaw pointed out that for similar average crowds, that North Melb revenue was about $5.2 million, vs other clubs such as Lions, Swans etc, and figures there were around $9m-$12m……..

….now, given the AFL forced the issue of ground rationalization, they then are responsible to ensure that clubs have access to appropriate shared venues at appropriate levels of ‘return’. The AFL has failed miserably on this count - - and that more than any other reason is why there are Melb clubs struggling,

the main struggling clubs ARE : North, Bulldogs - -Telstra Dome tennants,
and Melbourne - - always a fine line due to too many MCC members being Melb supporters - - the last survey still had Melb ahead of Collingwood as supported AFL club.

Paul said  | May 30th 2008 @ 12:29pm | Report comment

Michael C,

I hope that there would be funding for indigenous Aussie Rules programs, but could not see any in the budget. What funding do you know about?

Paul.

Paul said  | May 31st 2008 @ 9:38am | Report comment

The A-League have 1 Aboriginal player in Jade North for the Newacastle Jets and the soccer fans make a big noise about it. There are currently 61 Aboriginals running around in the AFL and more every year.

Aussie Rules football is highly valued by Indigenous Australians, but some how this fact has been completely ignored by the Federal government.

Paul said  | May 31st 2008 @ 10:20am | Report comment

Eamonn,

I wasn’t abreast of the facts thirty years ago, because I was a little young then. I searched for Aboriginal players in the A-League and only came up with Jade North, I guess he is the most famous. Ok, so there are six, fair enough.

If Aboriginal children want to play soccer that is completely ok. But let me ask you a question in return- which language is MORE important for the Pitjantjatjara children to learn? English or Pitjantjatjara?

Oppressive white governments continue to push their agendas of assimilating Aboriginal Australia. It may no longer be the stolen generations, there are more politically correct forms of assimilation now, language being the modern one, as the majority of Australians think that the English language is enough.

We need to stop being paternalistic and respect the many choices that Aboriginal communities have already made. The choice of the Rudd government to not give funding to Aboriginal Aussie Rules programs is a paternalistic choice of “knowing what is best” for indigenous Australians without allowing them to make those choices for themselves.

Dave said  | May 31st 2008 @ 12:53pm | Report comment

Midfielder

Latest figures l recall seeing show 40,000 5-12 year olds in Vic playing football as against 48,000 for AFL in the same age bracket with football numbers booming. When you think of the overwhelming media concentration on AFL with the effort and more poured into it then that is an astonishing statistic.
I think this stat may have previously been posted but will repeat from Aust Bureau of Stats 2006 (Latest figures) and this was before Australia’s participation in WC 2006;

“By far the most popular organised sport for boys in the year ending April 2006 was outdoor soccer which was played by 268,500 boys (19.6%), well in excess of the numbers participating in the next two most popular sports - swimming with 225,700 (16.5%), and Australian Rules football with 188,500 (13.8%). For girls, two sports were predominant - netball with 224,100 participants (17.3%) and swimming with 236,800 (18.2%). The level of participation in both of these sports was more than double the level of participation by girls in tennis, which was the next placed sport with 85,800 participants (6.6%).
Between April 2003 and April 2006, the sport participation rate for boys remained similar, at 68.9% while the rate for girls rose from 54.2% to 57.8%. However, the participation rate for boys playing outdoor soccer increased from 19.6% to 22.2%, while swimming increased from 13.1% to 15.7%. In contrast, the partiicpation rate in Rugby League decreased from 6.8% to 5.6%.
For girls, increased participation rates were reported for outdoor soccer (from 2.9% to 4.2%), martial arts (from 2.5% to 3.6%), and gymnastics (from 4.3% to 5.4%).”

Both for boys and girls football is on the rise. Rudd seems to on the right track if he wants more kids to participate in sports (by promoting football) and this may well have a flow on effect to indigenous kids.

Treizistes said  | May 31st 2008 @ 4:43pm | Report comment

Midfielder

Big artie beetson captained/coached the roosters to 2 GF victories and captained Australia at RLWC.

I heard the Soccer guy during the A League GF say the aboriginal captain of Newcastle was the first indigenous captain of any footy code in Aus to win a premiership, now that was a lie, as usual, every sport talks up their game and spins things to fit in what they like, but I’m getting sick and bloody tired of every sport in this country stealing the history off of Rugby League.

Again for the so called reporters in Australia that don’t know anything, Aurthur Beetson Captained/Coached the Eastern Suburb Roosters to Victory in 1975/76 seasons thus making him the first ever indigenous Australian to do that in any football code out here, before that, he Captained his country in the RLWC thus making him the first ever indigenous Australian to do so at international level.

Now can we please stop the Soccer, Union, AFL fans here taking something away from a great man and show him the respect he deserves?

And while we are at it, RL has always had more indigenous players than all the other codes, you could probably add all the other codes together and it wouldn’t come near Rugby League.

At the moment, there is an Aboriginal Rugby League comp being played in Australia, if you want to see how many play, have a look at the NITV station on Pay TV.

You guys spins shit all the time, for gods sake, print the truth for once.

I was mightily pissed off when Hill said that stuff about the Newcastle captain, Soccer fans, stop trying to rewrite history.

Treizistes said  | May 31st 2008 @ 5:37pm | Report comment

Lazza

Soccer has a long long long way to go to catch up to RL out here, for a start, RL gets over 3 million a season to its games, the soccer just over 1 million.

The RL out here gets something like 6 million a week watching all games on Pay TV and FTA, the Soccer rates very very poorly on Pay TV and hardly anyone watches SBS.

If Soccer was as strong as you seem to think it is, they would have no problem playing the A League during the winter when the other sports are played, oops, I mean Australia’s premier sports are played.

Treizistes said  | May 31st 2008 @ 8:55pm | Report comment

And RL plays around 190 games a season with an average of around 17,000, the A League plays about 90 and average below it.

I don’t believe those abs stats as the AFL gets to put Auskick numbers in there and the RL only uses club teams, when all the numbers for RL are put in, it has around 400,000 players, big difference isn’t it?

When tag, Oz tag and touch are added, RL in Australia has well over 1 million people playing some form of RL.

Those ABS stats are Bullshit, as if union has as many players Australia wide as League does, it doesn’t make sense yet idiots seem to believe it, if that’s the case, I expect to see a heap of teams down here in the Gong tomorrow playing union, and when I go back to visit my family in Goulburn next week, I’ll expect to see union teams everywhere, but I won’t, and you know why?

Because they don’t exist.

Yes, that’s right, union came clean last year and stated they only had around 60,000 players Australia wide, so that put those ABS numbers where they belong.

in the bin.

They are the same as that sweeney mob who ring 1000 victorians and ask them what the most popular sports are, all the time it’s AFL then soccer, the union then League, what a heap of crap.

The same mob then come out and say both the Lions and the swans have 1.4 million supporters each.

Hahahahaha, where are they, not at the games or watching on TV.

Matter of fact, the ARL/NRL have mentioned these so called sweeney and ABS stats and are looking at ways to get them to print the whole truth instead of things that suit certain sports, I for one can’t wait, just like regional TV viewers aren’t counted in regards to television, why is that?

Is it because they favour Rugby League?

And as I said before, if the A League is about to overtake RL, shouldn’t they move back to the winter to really test how strong they are and rub our noses in it lol?

As if.

Soccer out here has always had massive amounts of juniors, just like every country on Earth, but the fact is, when little johhny gets big enough to tell his mummy what he is playing and not what she wants, Soccer fails miserably.

Deal with the real facts and not what certain media outlets want you to believe.

The A League is going so great, the Toyota cup U20’s comp in RL nearly outrates what the A League GF got this year.

These are facts.

Later in the year when the top 100 programs on Pay TV come out, you’ll be lucky if 1 Soccer games makes it, as for FTA, they are not even in the race as the SOO last week had bigger ratings than the AFL GF did last year, so where is the soccer?

Treizistes said  | May 31st 2008 @ 10:16pm | Report comment

1 bloody game, I said that, do you think I’m stupid or something, the Soccer gets 1 game over 300,000, wow, I mean wow.

Gee that really makes the NRL look pitiful when last year they cracked 300,000 a dozen times on Fox sports 3 where thousands of people couldn’t watch the game as fox were upgrading the boxes.

I bet if the SOO or the Kangaroos were on Pay TV only, they’d smash that figure and you know it too, but you are a typical soccer bandwagoner.

Ohh, the A League is only 3 years old, ooh, Soccer hasn’t been around that long in Australia, ooh what a heap of crap, you soccer guys never stop with the BS, the Glory, are they 3 years old?

What about the Newcastle team?

How about the Brisbane team?

Might be different names these days for some, but one day you fools will wake up and realize Soccer has been played professionally in Australia longer than any other comp, yet this new comp is only 3 years old, puuleeaase.

It also had the first national comp, but hey, soccer rules, so why is it down near the bottom?

Explain that, explain why a national comp with a longer history, more players, a code that rakes in Billions world wide can’t compete with the 2 pissy winter codes in Australia.

The A League catching up to RL my arse.

Sydney FC get 16,000 every two weeks.

Sydney Rugby League gets 70 / 100,000 each week.

Newcastle Jets, 13,000 won the GF. every second week.

Newcastle Knights RL comes near last and averages around 16,000. every second week.

QLD roar, 16,000 every second week.

QLD RL 50,000 a week.

Central coast Marriners around 11,000 played in the GF.

No NRL team, but games played up there averaged around 16,000.

Melbourne Victory 26,000 every second week.

Melbourne Storm 13,000 every second week.

wow, 1 A League club going head to head infront, I bet you are proud.

So show me where the A League is close to the NRL.

And I used what the NRL put out like they do every year with their “state of the game report” take it up with them if you think they are lying.

Over 100 million in merchandise sales last year for RL, yet the A League is over taking it.

A new club last year that averaged more than every A League club bar the Victory, but RL is being over taken by the soccer.

Again, where they go head to head, only 1 club gets more than the RL club in the same area.

But the A League is only 1,000 behind the NRL, wake up, when the A League plays 190 games a season like the NRL and can sustain that average over the season, outrate all the games, sell more merchandise and have more teams playing, then, and only then can people like you say it’s catching up or over taken.

Dave said  | May 31st 2008 @ 10:51pm | Report comment

You said football would be lucky to get 1 over 300,000 so check the figures for Sundays Socceroos game and then the game vs China in a couple of weeks! There’s 3 already and there could well be more!

Aleague is closing in and although some way to go is doing very nicely with all performance indicators showing growth each year. RL is stronger in 2 states NSW and Q. Football is stronger in Vic, SA, Tas and WA. HAL is about to commence expansion so time will tell. Next TV deal will be the one to watch for all the codes.
If you had any understanding of footballs history in Oz you would know that it was its own worst enemy. So now it is getting its act together and yes it still has some way to go to catch RL…but not as far as it had 3 years ago.

Treizistes said  | May 31st 2008 @ 11:01pm | Report comment

I know what you mean MC.

I get sick of the soccer people putting the boot in, they can say it’s a new comp all they like, OK then, so is the NRL, the AFL and the S14, all have changed names over the years, all have changed club names over the years and all have played their own game since day dot.

It just seems to me that every code in Australia likes to put the boot into RL, is it because every other code sees RL as the code they need to knock off?

For crying out loud, every site be it, Big Footy, Planet Union, the World game all have one thing in common, their love affair of putting the boot into RL and stealing its history to suit their own agenda, and people here wonder why I get riled up at times when I continually see it, for gods sake, when was the last time you seen Soccer fans invading Union forums or Union fans invading AFL forums?

You don’t, you see some AFL/Soccer fights at times, but every time you dig deeper, you see all these codes fans for some strange reason getting together for a common cause, the cause being RUGBY LEAGUE.

Oh, and one last thing lol

Remember I think it was Simon Hill again with that Con bloke from Newcastle who said Soccer had taken over the Knights late last year?

What happened, did the Knights find a bit of form huh?

LMAO

Maybe, just maybe, those and other comments hurt the Jets because RL is the sport in Newcastle and talking like that might have put a few people off.

Rant over for now.

Dave said  | May 31st 2008 @ 11:13pm | Report comment

Treizistes Michael C

Glad to see l’ve been able to bring the AFL and RL supporters together for a love fest That takes some doing these days.
BTW l wasnt knocking RL and to be honest am quite neutral about both Rugby codes (have enjoyed the occassional TV game of both). They just dont have much presence in Melb at this stage although the Storm have done very well on the field. Both your codes will be dominant in their respective regions for plenty of years to come. However there is no denying football is on the up.

Treizistes said  | May 31st 2008 @ 11:27pm | Report comment

Dave

It’ll be the first and last time in the history of inter galactic sports code fighting that a RL and Fumbleball (AFL) follower agree.

Tick the box, the worlds about to end.

Paul said  | June 1st 2008 @ 1:09am | Report comment

Treizistes,

I think you will find this is one AFL supporter who does not place Rugby League fourth in his list of favourite football codes.

Dave said  | June 1st 2008 @ 9:43am | Report comment

Paul

Gee l wonder which code you would put fourth…hmmm…err…ummm…ohhhh…AFL? Am l close?

Paul said  | June 1st 2008 @ 12:17pm | Report comment

Dave,

P.S There are seven major codes of football in the world.

Michael C said  | June 1st 2008 @ 8:12pm | Report comment

“no denying football is on the up.”

sporting viagra?

“fumbleball”

only ‘cos they don’t have a handle of both sides of the ball!!! Everyone knows that’s why we fumble it when we do.

Dave -

the ground issue - -

it sounds impressive, doesn’t it, to say ‘3 codes’ - - however, Union is effectively non-existant, and just a promise as tangible as the South Morang rail extension past Epping (promised about 10 years ago, and still, may be 10 years away!!!).

So - the 3 codes presently have 2 teams/clubs and less than 30K members combined and maybe 20 odd games a season. And - they are getting a brand spanking new stadium with no strings attached. 1 of the clubs might be near or at capacity most the time at the new venue (but, plenty of room at existing venue), the other club, plenty of room at both existing and new - - hardly an imperitive to build.

In WA - - 2 clubs, combined membership of around 80K, 20 odd games a season, capacity not sufficient relative to demand. I.e. membership waiting lists, demand exceeds availability.

3 codes or 1 code - - doesn’t matter. Imperitive to build exists on behalf of WCE and Freo. It DOES NOT exist for the Melb rectangular stadium - - - at this point, the Melb rectangle stadium is a ‘nice to have’, not a ‘need to have’.

Now - the fact that rectangle codes whinge about playing on ovals - - and yet, FIFA WC finals are held in Olympic Stadia with running tracks around - - perhaps some Australian based ‘representatives’ are working hard at pulling the wool over our eyes.

Redb said  | June 1st 2008 @ 8:48pm | Report comment

Dave,

What do I understand? Sorry mate couldn’t care less about a foreign code being taught to Australians - rather it be Australian Rules any day of the week.

“Its Australian as vegemite”

Redb

Dave said  | June 1st 2008 @ 8:58pm | Report comment

Redb
Fortunately you dont make the decisions!
BTW Vegemite is owned by Americans but dont worry looked like a good cross sections of Aussies at the WC game tonight and with Indigenous player Jade North representing his country no doubt more indigenous kids will take notice.

Redb said  | June 1st 2008 @ 9:11pm | Report comment

Dave,

Soccer is owned by Europeans.

Redb

Michael C said  | June 1st 2008 @ 9:30pm | Report comment

Dave -

could build a rectangular paddock in Adelaide for 1 square cornered side,

the other 2 codes = = = let them put a team there first, and a bit of cash on the table - - -

how many stadia do you want built on the basis of what might happen within 5 or 10 years???? Might.

Let’s just bulldoze the MCG and built a 120K rectangle venue because, according to some, soccer will be number 1 within 12 years and AFL will be a lamentable historical anomoly. Might - will - is - - - no difference.

Redb said  | June 1st 2008 @ 9:53pm | Report comment

Dave,

Oh dear you seem to be missing the old dart, getting a bit nostalgic about us colonials and your waning influence. Didn’t mean to touch a nerve when stating the obvious about soccer being owned, controlled ,etc by Europeans.

Redb

Dave said  | June 1st 2008 @ 9:55pm | Report comment

Redb

Did the Bombers lose again??

Treizistes said  | June 2nd 2008 @ 3:21am | Report comment

[comment deleted - The Roar. Note: The Roar is a place for respectful sports debate, and is not a forum for flaming the sports that other fans enjoy.]

Michael C said  | June 2nd 2008 @ 6:11am | Report comment

Dave -

exactly - - plans ONLY to build white elephant stadia should we wi the hosting rights for the FIFA WC.

Which, suggests to me that the state govts in WA and SA really don’t see any additional high end Rugby (U or L) presence on the radar in the foreseeable future.
From either of the cash strapped ARU or ARL……………..gee, isnt’ it about time they merged.

Paul -

the fellow below has a track record of hijacking threads - - now - - along with a fellow called John Ryan, and actually there might be one or two others, they can tend to takes turns at degrading a thread………and, then, perhaps whinging to the arbiter!

Treizistes -

you had my sympathy for a short, - - very short period of time - -

once again, you and you alone are responsible for a degradation of a thread.

“Fumbleball”, “Chip chasers”, “effeminate code”………

the simple fact that in your mind ‘chip chasers’ is an insult - - whereas to us, it is perhaps recognition that the ball is actually contested - - and contested by an awful lot of people - - that those able to take it cleanly under intense pressure and use it well - - are the players who stand out.

and ‘effeminate code’ - -

actually, the purpose of Aust Footy is to NOT get hugged and swamped by your opposition, suggests a lesser level of ‘closer male bonding’ style touching - - especially given that Aust Footy is devoid of Scrums - - - how much do you enjoy your position in the front row with a couple of burley team mates pushing up behind you?????

‘effeminate code’ my foot!!!

we don’t go ‘humping’ the ground to score a goal…..ahem…….’try’……….that’s right, you don’t score goals anymore………..well, trying your darndest to outlaw goals - - -Rugby League, on the short road to being the first ‘goaless’ code of Football.

Treizistes said  | June 2nd 2008 @ 9:24am | Report comment

So as usual, the guys who jump down everyones throats when anything certain people say here is not agreed with, get to keep posting the same rubbish, but I get in trouble when I stick up for myself and my code.

The world is a pretty soft place nowadays if words that are not swear words can affect some so much, my god wake up.

You get people telling others not to post in certain threads because they don’t like the code, acting like they run the joint when they don’t, do you warn them?

No.

Why?

I think it’s because they don’t follow Rugby League.

If you think i’m whinging, fair enough, if you want me to prove what I state, ask away, I’m sure I could find hundreds.

And if RedB had any idea in the first place, he would have played what I wrote and not the man as Zac Zavos said in his email to me.

I’ll show you what I mean and we’ll see if it’s that bad.

Dave said:

“Treizistes Michael C

Glad to see l’ve been able to bring the AFL and RL supporters together for a love fest That takes some doing these days.”

I said.

“It’ll be the first and last time in the history of inter galactic sports code fighting that a RL and Fumbleball (AFL) follower agree.

Tick the box, the worlds about to end.”

Don’t you see it was a joke, have you guys not got a sense of humour?

Then seeing as this very very bad thing was said, oh not, burn him at the stake, he said something offensive about the AFL, a heap of guys worried about Fumbleball get their knickers in a knot and play the man, they could’ve said, it’s cool to see you two agreeing for once hahaha, intergalactic footy code wars, yeah, it’s a bit like that, but no, fumbleball was like a red rag to a crazed bull.

It was a joke and you guys are so bloody precious.

Once I said that, Redb calls me a moron, that’s when I fired back.

Because he couldn’t see it as a joke, he got all cut up about 1 stupid little word and then the possy had to show up.

Redb, if anyone is scared as you put it, wouldn’t it be people like you who freak out over such a little thing like Fumbleball?

Wake up and get a sense of humour, if you had of written the same thing I did and put in Thugby League or Mungo instead, I would see it for what it is, a joke.

John Ryan said  | June 2nd 2008 @ 9:49am | Report comment

Dear Michael C between you and your mate I,m not sure which of you is the biggest goose,don,t accuse me of running to the mods son that appears to be your thing,if you don,t want to cop it what you hand out don,t walk in and make derogatory remarks about posters and expect to wander off scot free.
Dear Mods Sorry I don’t highjack threads I just respond to abuse,if the two turkeys who dish it out don’t like getting it back I wonder how long they would last on a political forum,I have a feeling they would run home to mummy crying after about 3 posts.
BTW I think some one asked a question and I answered about the cost of the Stadium in Perth.

Koala Bear said  | June 2nd 2008 @ 10:15am | Report comment

Treizistes
I think “fumble ball” is very tame… I heard an analogy once when the ball goes to ground in AFL it’s like watching a pack of wild dingos scrapping for a bone…

~~~~~~~
KB

Dave said  | June 2nd 2008 @ 10:33am | Report comment

Michael C

Football as the fastest growing code, any comment?

Michael C said  | June 2nd 2008 @ 10:39am | Report comment

John Ryan -

ah, son, simply warning Mr.Paul of what he might encounter.

Because, Paul seems to prefer researched opinion, facts and reasoned debate.

Which is far from the domain of certain posters - - and, rather as predicted, along comes the anti-AFL brigade.

Koala Bear -

and the dingos scrapping for a bone provides a better contest than half of the over technical sports with imaginary lines…….could you imagine the dingos tying up their front legs because they figured that wasn’t the way to ‘play the bone’……and, really, does it look any worse than a Union rolling maul??
btw - at least you said ‘dingos’ and NOT ‘german shepherds’ or something similarly ‘European’.

btw — the Swans fans would’ve been delirious by half time - - you need to remember, we actually yearn for the odd day where at half time you can almost pencil in the 4pts for the win, and just sit back and enjoy a party atmosphere in the 2nd half - - that happens all too rarely.
Collingwood v WCE - - 53K on a Saturday arvo when everyone is off playing suburban footy. Not bad - - -especially with the glorious day time weather we’ve been having, people out boating on the bay, bushwalking, etc etc……

Dave -

what confuses me is that often people quote the strength of the HAL, and then go on about the Socceroos.

And, apart from anything else, we saw that only 10K turned up for a dead rubber MVFC vs some team from Asia, and then, 40+K turn up to watch a sub-strength Juventus play MVFC in a meaningless practice match……..says a lot about the support for MVFC???? Actually - - what it DOES say is a lot about the rejection of MVFC and HAL THUS far by the latent soccer community (which we know exists).

Still a ways to go, and, still, again, proof that overseas soccer - - like basketball - - IS actually in competition with the local product - — similar to luxury cars.

John Ryan said  | June 2nd 2008 @ 11:03am | Report comment

I tend to think that football is the fastest growing code if you look at juniors,i think there are a few surveys that prove it but like all sport the kids drop out at 15 16 and go do something else,I thought the $5 dollar note was a better one myself,but then if the AFL get many more on the field and sideline and refs, flag wavers ect it will look like Hay st on a Sat arvo.
Funny how the only people who like reasoned debate are AFL if what you and you mate put up reasoned debate I would hate to see your version of an unreasoned debate.

Michael C said  | June 2nd 2008 @ 12:01pm | Report comment

Dave -

for interest sake.

Comparing ABS figures for ‘96 to 2005/06
Total number % participation
Aerobics/Fitness 659.9 to 2016 4.8% to 12.6% (massive increase)
Golf 444.7 to 875.5 3.2 to 5.5 (very healthy)
Tennis 362 to 768 2.6 to 4.8(very healthy)
Netball 328.6 to 431 2.4 to 2.7 (okay)
Lawn bowls 296.4 to 255.8 2.2 to 1.6 (stinks)
Swimming 281.4 to 1447.3 2.0 to 9.0 (massive)
Basketball 240.2 to 331.5 1.7 to 2.1 (okay)
Cricket (outdoor) 196.4 to 335.5 1.4 to 2.1 (solid)
TenPinBowling 190.9 to 77.2 1.4 to 0.5 (really stinks)
Martial Arts 214.2 to 229.1 1.6 to 1.4 (stinks)

so - above, you can get a bit of an idea of benchmarks.

Now - for the footy codes I’ll include the male female breakdown as it IS important.
Male Female All
Aust Footy 145.6 to 240.8 - - - to 27.9 146.4 to 268.7
2.1 to 3.1 - — to 0.3 1.1 to 1.7
RL 78.4 to 91.2 4.6* to - — 83.0 to 91.2
1.2 to 1.2 0.1 to - - - 0.6 to 0.6
RU 64.8 to 71.1 4.8* to 7.7 69.6 to 78.9
1.0 to 0.9 0.1 to 0.1 0.5 to 0.5
soccer (indoor) 27.3 to 148.1 8.0 to 47.5 35.3 to 195.7
0.4 to 1.9 0.1 to 0.6 0.3 to 1.2
soccer (outd) 143.2 to 311.5 19.5 to 108.1 162.7 to 419.6
2.1 to 3.9 0.3 to 1.3 1.2 to 2.6
Touch 122.2 to 146.6 52.4 to 108.3 174.6 to 254.9
1.8 to 1.9 0.8 to 1.3 1.3 to 1.6

so - - above, over 10 years, certainly, soccer participation has increased.

Not at the expense of Aust Football - - so, that of particular interest to myself is reassuring.

However, RL and RU have struggle to make relative headway - - but, at least, aren’t going backwards, just aren’t going forwards real quick either.

The indoor soccer element is interesting.

There is always the question of exclusivity or not.

I know a few of the blokes I play footy with do or have played soccer, indoor soccer, basketball etc - often during the footy season, and then of course cricket in summer - so, I always wonder when I see these sorts of figures, how many people are being counted 2 or 3 or 5 times.

The point there being that Aust Footy doesn’t really have a ‘parallel’ sport - - so to speak - - in that RU, RL and touch MIGHT have a parallel element, or at least a progression element. Indoor and outdoor soccer one MUST imagine would have a strong parallel element as well as a progression element.
Aust Footy - - perhaps basketball?

Anyway - - just thought I’d put some numbers out there, instead of just guestimates and bias.

Michael C said  | June 2nd 2008 @ 12:43pm | Report comment

Treizistes - - these are the ABS figures - - for ages 15 and up. So - don’t go implying Aust Footy is bumped up by Auskickers!!!

checking back in ‘98 ABS results

This is where it’s really interesting.

Male Female All
Aust Footy 145.6 to 148.9 to 240.8 //////- - - to - - -to 27.9 ///////146.4 to 157.4 to 268.7
2.1 to 2.2 to 3.1 //////- — to — to 0.3 //////1.1 to 1.2 to 1.7

A very healthy growth,

RL 78.4 to 77.1 to 91.2 //////4.6* to - — //////83.0 to 81.2 to 91.2
1.2 to 1.2 to 1.2 //////0.1 to - - - //////0.6 to 0.6 to 0.6

stagnate ratios, gradual growth in absolutes terms, but static in relative terms.

RU 64.8 to 70.2 to 71.1 //////4.8* to — to 7.7 //////69.6 to 72.3 to 78.9
1.0 to 1.1 to 0.9 //////0.1 to — to 0.1 //////0.5 to 0.5 to 0.5

See RL above, very similar.

soccer (indoor) 27.3 to 77.4 to 148.1 //////8.0 to —- to 47.5 //////35.3 to 84.2to 195.7
0.4 to 1.2 to 1.9////// 0.1 to — to 0.6 //////0.3 to 0.6 to 1.2

come from nowhere, big growth.

soccer (outd) 143.2 to 240.4 to 311.5 //////19.5 to 26.7 to 108.1////// 162.7 to 267.1 to 419.6
2.1 to 3.6 to 3.9 //////0.3 to 0.4 to 1.3 //////1.2 to 2.0 to 2.6

Interestingly, the big jump around ‘96 to ‘98 - - Male participation from 2.1 to 3.6, and subsequently, only progressed to 3.9. Overall growth is certainly boosted by the female side of things.

Touch 122.2 to 130.1 to 146.6////// 52.4 to 60.6 to 108.3////// 174.6 to 190.7 to 254.9
1.8 to 1.9 to 1.9 //////0.8 to 0.9 to 1.3 //////1.3 to 1.4 to 1.6

again, male side is relatively static, but, the female side has provided real growth both in absolute terms and relative.

so - - again, I look at all this, and, in more recent times Aust Footy has been a bit of a growth sport, and soccer, more so for women.

The current soccer participation rates in that respect aren’t much of an issue for the AFL world, because, they haven’t changed relatively that greatly since ‘98, whilst the Aust Footy participation rates amongst males have climbed from 2.2 to 3.1.

What would be interesting is to review the probably soccer spikes relative to WC campaigns - - and, the recognition now that perhaps, perhaps, the Asian WC campaign is more ‘visible’……but, really, there’s a difference between people being more likely to turn up to the 1 or 2 socceroos home town fixtures (as spread around the country) compared to those actually willing to get out and play the game at over 15 age level. So - - I don’t really reckon the ‘fad’ element applies at the participation level anywhere near the way it applies at sporting theatre attendance level - - as shown by Becksmania and Juvefever.

Michael C said  | June 2nd 2008 @ 2:07pm | Report comment

Dave -
those ABS stats are for participation for age 15 and over - - i.e youngest age group when split is 15-24.

Participant - - as per the ‘96 definition

“Includes those playing a sport or physically undertaking an activity. Excluded are people involved solely as a coach/teacher/instructore, a referee/umpire, an administrator/committee member or similar role.” It’s in the Glossary on the reports.

clubs and or social groups - -i.e. jogging won’t be counted if just an individual person going for an evening jog, but - -if as part of a jogging even social or work group - then it would.

They do have tables about frequency, as well as organised or not - - the other day I did present ABS stats showing that soccer and indoor and outdoor cricket all have a high level of ‘unorganized’ activity - - around 32 to 36%.

That’s interest. It might be that work groups/church groups etc might be more likely to have those sports as part of a social day. Perhaps those people then will fall into the irregular pariticipants category.

The 5-14 age group is light on the ground,

back in ‘96 it was recorded - -
at that time for boys
Soccer 17%, Aust Footy 11%, RL 6.5%, RU 2.2% and Indoor soccer 1.3%.

How representative that was, who knows, and I can’t find 5-14 data in 98/99 report or 05/06 report.

The cross over factor in respects to participation is still interesting, I saw on the weekend a report on a young kid, Watts, I forget the first name - - and, he’s been Aust Junior Basketball captain, and repped Aust just about all through the age groups - - and, he’s also been playing footy - - and he’s decided to nominate for the AFL draft. So, he’s got to age 17-18 and only deciding at this point. I know that many talented cricketer/footballers get to the same line in the sand point.

And that line in the sand point varies from sport to sport.

Michael C said  | June 2nd 2008 @ 3:40pm | Report comment

Dave -

that’s not bad then, for Soccer 17 to 20% given a more ‘national’ spread, Aust Footy 11 to 14%.

Nice little relative growth rates there.

And, again, in the none core Aust Footy states - the fact that kids might play a bit of soccer - - all good - - they need to develop those foot kicking skills - so, along with their basketball - they might become better footy players.;-)

Michael C said  | June 2nd 2008 @ 5:11pm | Report comment

Paul -

I’ve got 5 yr old twin boys - they were premmie, and have needed a bit of occupational therapy along the way - -but, doing just fine.

However, between everything including swimming, and kinda etc, little tacker soccer just wouldn’t serve any purpose for them - - they’re actually pretty okay at kicking a ball off the ground - - it’s the higher order co-ordination and strength that requires attention - - so, purely form an OT perspective - - auskick for example is the perfect blend.

Either that, or I’d have to send them to little tacker soccer AND basketball, and we just don’t have the time/money to do that.

It’s one of those things - - focus on a sport if you must, but, developmentally, I am saddened when I see some pushy parents forcing their kids to focus on soccer from age 3 (as one can see in the parks now and then when the dad berates the poor little kid for picking it up with his hands……..).

It reminds me of the Doctor Phil answer to a mum ringing through, asking about her 3 yr old who can count and read and etc etc, and asks “Is he gifted”, and Doctor Phil answers, ‘can he catch a ball’, basically, saying that gifted isn’t being an 8 year old who can’t catch a ball but CAN read Shakespeare. Kids need to be developed in a more all round manner, and then, their gifts will become apparent enough over time.

Michael C said  | June 2nd 2008 @ 5:39pm | Report comment

Dave -

running with the ball in the hands is simple enough - - they call that Rugby.

Now, bouncing it ever 10 metres, and kicking the ball (shaped as it is) on the run (often with a fellow baring down on you from behind, beside and infront)…..yep - - - real simple.

Catching a fairly large ball with you hands - - pretty simple if it’s a sphere - - but, then, all soccer goalies wear huge gloves and should never drop it (although, sometimes I figure the gloves can be a burden rather than a benefit, much prefer catching an outfield cricket ball in the hands than an outfield baseball in the ruddy great big glove).
Now - that fairly large oval shaped ball comes spinning in all different manners, and with the wind, may carry or drop suddenly - - - not so easy catching that wretched thing in the hands, especially if you are A. on the move yourself, and B. being contested by an opponent.

Dribbling a soccer ball is a pretty easy skill to practice, you can do it by yourself, personally I find the soccer ball quite enjoyable to kick around, as, being a regular shaped sphere, you can impart spin and curve on it with similar logic to what which one tries to apply on a pool table or golf course……..only, the soccer ball is a bit bigger, so, I generally hit the spot I was hoping for. Granted, doing it under pressure and with decent force behind it — that would require a bit more training.

The element of AFL is that it has a broader range of attributes. Now, Jim Stynes - - you need to remember was a ruckman at 2 metres tall. Playing the ball itself was not his primary role, he did however, develop a very simple and reliable kicking technique (given that he was a gaelic player - he already had most of the required technique and balance developed - - so, NOT that big a transition). He was very much head over the ball, and was very good over shorter distances - - he never was that great a booming long kick though. But - - he was able to make up for deficiencies in one area with strengths in other areas.

I reckon AFL allows a greater variety of developed attributes to earn a place - - that said, if it were played at a higher level than domestic clubs - - then, at that highest level, you couldn’t get by without a decent ‘wrong’ foot for example.

Comparing Gaelic to AFL is a bit like Indoor cricket to outdoor cricket - - different field, different ball, but, same fundamentals.

Dave said  | June 2nd 2008 @ 10:02pm | Report comment

Michael C

I was having a dig back at Paul in my reply re skills. As some one who played at u/19 level AFL and in the same year u/20 level football (no call ups from Rale Rasic or Barry Davis unfortunately) l have some understanding of the skills for both games. Both require components of speed, balance, agility, strength, coordination, endurance and power. The acquisition of difficult motor skills such as running at pace and either dribbling or bouncing the ball is fundamental as is hand eye and foot eye coordination. AFL requires more consistent use of upper body strength whilst football requires greater strength and power in the legs. The ability to catch is a fundamental motor skill as is the ability to kick and there is nothing too difficult there. However difficulty comes when players are put under competitive pressure and this is where the great players stand up. The difficulty in dribbling the ball at top speed with some defender trying to hack you is no more or less difficult than running at speed and bouncing the ball with someone breathing down your neck trying to grab you. In both codes the top players make it look easy. The bounce of the oval ball is difficult to pick initially but players soon learn to judge the bounce, same with kicking the oval ball and the ability to impart swerve. Same in football where the kicker learns where to strike the ball to make it spin left, right or go straight. So the fundamental difference comes from the ability of AFL players to use hands to catch, pick up, bounce and kick the ball which in themselves are not difficult skills to learn. Of course under pressure they are more difficult to perform but the use of the hands mitigates the level of difficulty. So IMO the use of the feet, thigh, chest and head to control or direct the ball are skills that dont come naturally and so can be very difficult to learn initially and then master whilst under pressure. I believe this is borne out in the sense that it is easier for footballers to move to AFL and be successful than vice versa eg Russell Robertson Melb player comes to mind. Dont know of any AFL players that moved to football and were successful at a professional level (you may know of someone). Both codes have extreme unique skills such as the speccy in AFL and the scissor kick in football which probably balance each other out.
So 2 skillful games requiring all the attributes of great athletes with the better game coming down to…personal choice

Michael C said  | June 3rd 2008 @ 6:16am | Report comment

Dave -

and - - that’s exactly why AFL has some competitive advantages in a diverse sporting landscape,

A. NOT having international benchmarks - - the standard can drop 2% and it’s not an issue.
B. soccer kids might have to devote themselves from age 8 to ‘make it’ to the absolute big time, otherwise, their best hope is ‘journeyman’ status
C. AFL has developed very good programs of ‘player’ conversion - - i.e. from other sports, and have recognised that a combination especially of basketball AND soccer can work quite well.
D. junior coaching over the years couldn’t always be trusted to NOT teach bad habits, sometimes, a talented almost blank canvass can be developed and moulded.
E. HOWEVER, the absolute super stars are still invariably the ones who combine natural talent, seemingly natural apptitude and have that something special - - such that it’s hard to believe they wouldn’t star at whatever sport they’d played - - the question I guess is always, what’s the latest age such a player MIGHT have been able to convert to soccer - - - and, I guess, by it’s nature, the soccer world hasn’t really had to worry its pretty head about such things, as, there’s been an endless supply of player talent, including from 3rd world countries where it’s a bit cheaper.

There’s a lot said then for entering the Aust Footy program, your chances of ‘making it’ are probably a lot better. I gather that ‘card’ has been played a bit over the years.

What annoys me though, is the perception of soccer being somehow a ’safer’ and softer sport to play. Personally, I regard soccer on a par with netball for being attrocious on ankles, knees and hips.
I once heard a fellow call ABC radio and comment about how ’smart’ all those soccer players looked with their socks pull up. I wanted to call in and mention that that was because EVERY single player wears the best possible shin guards - - otherwise, within 10 mins they’d have a broken leg!!!!

Now - - when you mentioned the upper body strength aspect, leg strength is actually super critical, and in a sense coming back into vogue now that the AFL rules committee have cracked down on hands in the back in marking contests. I’ve always had great leg strength but crappy upper body, and have therefore had a thumping kick, but in marking contests had to devise ways of using my strength hips down to maximum effect. I always thought I was playing most within the rules - and felt that Stephen Silvagni for example was playing outside what I considered the rules to be - - and, yet, he was awarded ‘full back of the century’. An absolute travesty. I felt there were too many defenders who were recruited as forwards, had no real defensive ’skills’, and were being taught effectively to ‘cheat’, and be ‘lazy’. Thankfully, the skill and art of an AFL defender is returning.

btw -

kicking in AFL, becuase of the hand drop to the boot, that’s actually such a huge, huge variable, good players can have bad days where they just can’t find ‘touch’ or ‘the feel’ on the ball, and like a golfer or cricketer suddenly find the grip tightening etc. Soccer players AT LEAST have a level of advantage in that that one great variable is removed.
On a good day, the control gained from the ball drop is probably an advantage.

True Tah said  | June 3rd 2008 @ 10:45am | Report comment

Redb,

ironic that you mention scoring with the head. A World Cup a few years ago, there was a European player who was in line to score the most goals in this particular World Cup and all of these were by headers- of course if he did score the most goals, he would be awarded the Golden Boot award - he did not end up winning it - but it would have been interesting.

Agree why soccer has grown in third world countries because of it being the easiest to play, although some third world countries (the subcontinent, the Pacific Islands, Madagascar, parts of Latin America) soccer is not the no. 1 sport.

Redb said  | June 3rd 2008 @ 11:36am | Report comment

True Tah,

Just trying to ‘head’ off a foot ball argument.

head - Golden Noggen

foot - Golden boot - tick

chest - Golden Mr T.

Redb

Michael C said  | June 3rd 2008 @ 12:25pm | Report comment

Dave -

2 huge posts - - yep, not as far apart as a the soccer verticals though. A tad bit more narrow. The benefit of no veritcal limit via a x-bar - - is tangible.
However - you DO actually have to kick it.
And, it doesn’t count as a goal if it’s touched,
or, comes off a head,
or, deflects off the woodwork.

So - - there is an element of a tighter criteria that balances out a portion of the degree of difficulty in soccer.

My main point of reference is about as solid as the pot stirrer Mr. KB.

I played a series of soccer matches at Uni - - when living on campass - each year we’d have inter-halls sports. I played the footy, and indoor cricket, and the soccer.
One particular year we had a bit of a ‘dream team’ - - a couple of Danish students quite adept at soccer, at least one Aussie for whom soccer was his chosen and preferred code, a couple of Asian students rather more skilled in soccer than any other code - - and I was in goals. I saved a penalty!!!!
The sad reality - - the more our dream team of skilled exponents of the game tried to finesse and set up the ‘perfect’ soccer goal - - the more they failed. The more that our opponents, made up entirely of Aussie Footballers in footy shorts - - perfectly applied chaos theory of get the ball in, get it in often, apply pressure, and back yourself in to have a bluddy shot!!!!!!
Perhaps, since then, I’ve carried a bit of a chaos theory about you can’t score if you don’t try - - so, what’s keeping you!!!

btw - - you don’t score a goal if you miss!

A point for missing, compared to a single point for whatever makes the ball go in the net - - them, us, feet, heads, anything - - whatever gets it in there is called a goal - - - I still can’t fathom that such a ‘foot centric’ sport allows just anything to count as a goal……now……if a ‘pure’ kicked goal were worth 6 points, and all others worth 1 pt - - just think of how few drawn matches there’d be……;-)

Dave said  | June 3rd 2008 @ 12:48pm | Report comment

Guys

Not precious just like to give a little back - BTW It was Paul who first compared skill levels and as he’s away for a few days we’ll blame him
If you see on my earlier post didn’t get a call from Rale Rasic unfortunately but l was a couple of years too young for 74 WC anyway
In regards to comments on skill levels it certainly helps to qualify if you’ve played all the sports you are comparing. My years in the NDFL/NMFL dodging hits and thumps as well as school games gives me some understanding as well as the pyschological problems from the trauma experienced

Michael C said  | June 3rd 2008 @ 12:58pm | Report comment

Dave -

you’ve disclosed your vintage -

I can simply say that back in that ‘era’ of ‘Aust footy’, it was a bit rough and ready, and a lot of thuggery was accepted. I first got exposed to the game in 1977 (really, both footy and soccer). Footy wise, it’s the graceful ball players that attracted my attention.
Thankfully - that old school attitude to what was and was not acceptable is heading off to retirement villages on the Gold Coast…….

g’day KB!!!!

Perhaps, had I grown up in your era, to chose to play a game - - I might well have opted for soccer.

Treizistes said  | June 4th 2008 @ 3:40am | Report comment

Redb

I noticed and so did a few others on this site some of the responses you made at a certain AFL site yesterday regarding your true feelings towards other sports and esp the Melbourne Storm, so, why are your opinions on this site so different, so different infact, you could almost say you have a multiple personality disorder.

You stated here the other day you don’t want RL to die, as has been pointed out on that other site to you by someone, yet on that very site, you are in there telling the Storm to ef off out of Melbourne blah blah blah, have your true feeling finally been outed?

Are you a typical Victorian that only wants the VFL to get money off the Government and stuff the rest?

Hmmm.

Redb said  | June 4th 2008 @ 5:10am | Report comment

A question for you Treizites,

What on earth are you doing on a Aussie Rules forum in the first place - are you an anonymous rugby league troll on those forums or are you a fan of Aussie Rules?

Redb

Redb said  | June 4th 2008 @ 10:14am | Report comment

Treizistes,

Well i’d prefer to leave what is said on other forums on other forums - I think the Roar is outstanding compared to those other forumss - which I dont take too seriously at all.

By the way, I’ve submitted an article to the Roar on the topic of why the Melbourne storm should pack up and go home.

Redb