I look forward to it.

I hope you have done your home work on them though.

Well i’d prefer to leave what is said on other forums on other forums – I think the Roar is outstanding compared to those other forumss – which I dont take too seriously at all.

By the way, I’ve submitted an article to the Roar on the topic of why the Melbourne storm should pack up and go home.

Redb

Been on the forum for about 5 years and I only post when untruths are told, which is by the hundreds every day.

They are obsessed with TTG.

What on earth are you doing on a Aussie Rules forum in the first place – are you an anonymous rugby league troll on those forums or are you a fan of Aussie Rules?

Redb

You of all people should know that other forums are different, the tone is different, the attitude is more harsh especially on an expansion forum where trolls are free to roam. No one take those forums all that seriously.

I’m flattered you follow my every move.

Redb

I noticed and so did a few others on this site some of the responses you made at a certain AFL site yesterday regarding your true feelings towards other sports and esp the Melbourne Storm, so, why are your opinions on this site so different, so different infact, you could almost say you have a multiple personality disorder.

You stated here the other day you don’t want RL to die, as has been pointed out on that other site to you by someone, yet on that very site, you are in there telling the Storm to ef off out of Melbourne blah blah blah, have your true feeling finally been outed?

Are you a typical Victorian that only wants the VFL to get money off the Government and stuff the rest?

Hmmm.

Don’t forget to keep practicing bouncing that thing and remember start on your knees and build up slowly ….

~~~~~~
KB

you’ve disclosed your vintage -

I can simply say that back in that ‘era’ of ‘Aust footy’, it was a bit rough and ready, and a lot of thuggery was accepted. I first got exposed to the game in 1977 (really, both footy and soccer). Footy wise, it’s the graceful ball players that attracted my attention.
Thankfully – that old school attitude to what was and was not acceptable is heading off to retirement villages on the Gold Coast…….

g’day KB!!!!

Perhaps, had I grown up in your era, to chose to play a game – - I might well have opted for soccer.

“as well as the pyschological problems from the trauma experienced ” – thanks Dave I think we understand why you enjoy the sport for “damaged people” (Robin Williams) .

Played only Aust footy and soccer, rugby codes non existent when growing up, although a Kiwi rugby mate and I belted two Americans at scratch gridiron game once. ANZAC spirit too much for those yanks.

Redb

Not precious just like to give a little back – BTW It was Paul who first compared skill levels and as he’s away for a few days we’ll blame him
If you see on my earlier post didn’t get a call from Rale Rasic unfortunately but l was a couple of years too young for 74 WC anyway
In regards to comments on skill levels it certainly helps to qualify if you’ve played all the sports you are comparing. My years in the NDFL/NMFL dodging hits and thumps as well as school games gives me some understanding as well as the pyschological problems from the trauma experienced

If you give it you’ve got to be prepared to cop it. I’ll cop that

But you’ve got to admit headers are as curious as points for missing in a sense or some of the odditiies in other football codes. Don’t get too precious.

How many games did you play for the Socceroos?

Redb

2 huge posts – - yep, not as far apart as a the soccer verticals though. A tad bit more narrow. The benefit of no veritcal limit via a x-bar – - is tangible.
However – you DO actually have to kick it.
And, it doesn’t count as a goal if it’s touched,
or, comes off a head,
or, deflects off the woodwork.

So – - there is an element of a tighter criteria that balances out a portion of the degree of difficulty in soccer.

My main point of reference is about as solid as the pot stirrer Mr. KB.

I played a series of soccer matches at Uni – - when living on campass – each year we’d have inter-halls sports. I played the footy, and indoor cricket, and the soccer.
One particular year we had a bit of a ‘dream team’ – - a couple of Danish students quite adept at soccer, at least one Aussie for whom soccer was his chosen and preferred code, a couple of Asian students rather more skilled in soccer than any other code – - and I was in goals. I saved a penalty!!!!
The sad reality – - the more our dream team of skilled exponents of the game tried to finesse and set up the ‘perfect’ soccer goal – - the more they failed. The more that our opponents, made up entirely of Aussie Footballers in footy shorts – - perfectly applied chaos theory of get the ball in, get it in often, apply pressure, and back yourself in to have a bluddy shot!!!!!!
Perhaps, since then, I’ve carried a bit of a chaos theory about you can’t score if you don’t try – - so, what’s keeping you!!!

btw – - you don’t score a goal if you miss!

A point for missing, compared to a single point for whatever makes the ball go in the net – - them, us, feet, heads, anything – - whatever gets it in there is called a goal – - – I still can’t fathom that such a ‘foot centric’ sport allows just anything to count as a goal……now……if a ‘pure’ kicked goal were worth 6 points, and all others worth 1 pt – - just think of how few drawn matches there’d be……;-)

Just trying to ‘head’ off a foot ball argument.

head – Golden Noggen

foot – Golden boot – tick

chest – Golden Mr T.

Redb

in HAL V2, I think Kevin Muscat was leading the ‘golden boot’ award half way through the season – -and, yet, all his goals had come from penalties, because, he was the designated penalty taker.

Kinda figurered there should’ve been 2 separate awards there, but, on the basis of your point – 3 awards,
the golden noggen (obviously for headers)
the golden hoof (goals scored IN play from the field)
the golden whatever you might call a penalty taker, ‘gifthorse’?

ironic that you mention scoring with the head. A World Cup a few years ago, there was a European player who was in line to score the most goals in this particular World Cup and all of these were by headers- of course if he did score the most goals, he would be awarded the Golden Boot award – he did not end up winning it – but it would have been interesting.

Agree why soccer has grown in third world countries because of it being the easiest to play, although some third world countries (the subcontinent, the Pacific Islands, Madagascar, parts of Latin America) soccer is not the no. 1 sport.

“That is why athletes who have never played AFL can come in at a very late age and master the game eg Jim Stynes etc This doesnt happen in football because of the more complex and difficult skills ” What like kicking a ball along the ground

Stynes played gaelic footy,not that much of a stretch. I think your argument is flawed. Kieran jack son of RL legend Garry jack (who use to play for the only RL team I supported – the Balmain Tigers) , took up Aussie Rules at 14 after playing junor rugby league and is doing well. However, he has trouble with tackling in Aussie Rules resulting in more then the usual number of free kicks. Tackling in the rugby league is quite different, it is hard to unlearn skills.

Soccer has grown in third world countries becuase it is the easiest (and cheapest) of the football codes to play from day one. Obviously top line soccer players are highly skilled and their ball control by foot is second to none – of course their hand skills are non existent. So would you think foot controlled ball skills get all the attention unlike in the other 3 football codes. Please dont start the football argument here – Kewell scored a goal with his head.

Redb

and – - that’s exactly why AFL has some competitive advantages in a diverse sporting landscape,

A. NOT having international benchmarks – - the standard can drop 2% and it’s not an issue.
B. soccer kids might have to devote themselves from age 8 to ‘make it’ to the absolute big time, otherwise, their best hope is ‘journeyman’ status
C. AFL has developed very good programs of ‘player’ conversion – - i.e. from other sports, and have recognised that a combination especially of basketball AND soccer can work quite well.
D. junior coaching over the years couldn’t always be trusted to NOT teach bad habits, sometimes, a talented almost blank canvass can be developed and moulded.
E. HOWEVER, the absolute super stars are still invariably the ones who combine natural talent, seemingly natural apptitude and have that something special – - such that it’s hard to believe they wouldn’t star at whatever sport they’d played – - the question I guess is always, what’s the latest age such a player MIGHT have been able to convert to soccer – - – and, I guess, by it’s nature, the soccer world hasn’t really had to worry its pretty head about such things, as, there’s been an endless supply of player talent, including from 3rd world countries where it’s a bit cheaper.

There’s a lot said then for entering the Aust Footy program, your chances of ‘making it’ are probably a lot better. I gather that ‘card’ has been played a bit over the years.

What annoys me though, is the perception of soccer being somehow a ’safer’ and softer sport to play. Personally, I regard soccer on a par with netball for being attrocious on ankles, knees and hips.
I once heard a fellow call ABC radio and comment about how ’smart’ all those soccer players looked with their socks pull up. I wanted to call in and mention that that was because EVERY single player wears the best possible shin guards – - otherwise, within 10 mins they’d have a broken leg!!!!

Now – - when you mentioned the upper body strength aspect, leg strength is actually super critical, and in a sense coming back into vogue now that the AFL rules committee have cracked down on hands in the back in marking contests. I’ve always had great leg strength but crappy upper body, and have therefore had a thumping kick, but in marking contests had to devise ways of using my strength hips down to maximum effect. I always thought I was playing most within the rules – and felt that Stephen Silvagni for example was playing outside what I considered the rules to be – - and, yet, he was awarded ‘full back of the century’. An absolute travesty. I felt there were too many defenders who were recruited as forwards, had no real defensive ’skills’, and were being taught effectively to ‘cheat’, and be ‘lazy’. Thankfully, the skill and art of an AFL defender is returning.

btw -

kicking in AFL, becuase of the hand drop to the boot, that’s actually such a huge, huge variable, good players can have bad days where they just can’t find ‘touch’ or ‘the feel’ on the ball, and like a golfer or cricketer suddenly find the grip tightening etc. Soccer players AT LEAST have a level of advantage in that that one great variable is removed.
On a good day, the control gained from the ball drop is probably an advantage.

You make your points fairly and with respect. Thanks for the debate.

Until next time.

Paul.

I was having a dig back at Paul in my reply re skills. As some one who played at u/19 level AFL and in the same year u/20 level football (no call ups from Rale Rasic or Barry Davis unfortunately) l have some understanding of the skills for both games. Both require components of speed, balance, agility, strength, coordination, endurance and power. The acquisition of difficult motor skills such as running at pace and either dribbling or bouncing the ball is fundamental as is hand eye and foot eye coordination. AFL requires more consistent use of upper body strength whilst football requires greater strength and power in the legs. The ability to catch is a fundamental motor skill as is the ability to kick and there is nothing too difficult there. However difficulty comes when players are put under competitive pressure and this is where the great players stand up. The difficulty in dribbling the ball at top speed with some defender trying to hack you is no more or less difficult than running at speed and bouncing the ball with someone breathing down your neck trying to grab you. In both codes the top players make it look easy. The bounce of the oval ball is difficult to pick initially but players soon learn to judge the bounce, same with kicking the oval ball and the ability to impart swerve. Same in football where the kicker learns where to strike the ball to make it spin left, right or go straight. So the fundamental difference comes from the ability of AFL players to use hands to catch, pick up, bounce and kick the ball which in themselves are not difficult skills to learn. Of course under pressure they are more difficult to perform but the use of the hands mitigates the level of difficulty. So IMO the use of the feet, thigh, chest and head to control or direct the ball are skills that dont come naturally and so can be very difficult to learn initially and then master whilst under pressure. I believe this is borne out in the sense that it is easier for footballers to move to AFL and be successful than vice versa eg Russell Robertson Melb player comes to mind. Dont know of any AFL players that moved to football and were successful at a professional level (you may know of someone). Both codes have extreme unique skills such as the speccy in AFL and the scissor kick in football which probably balance each other out.
So 2 skillful games requiring all the attributes of great athletes with the better game coming down to…personal choice

Yep, what he said.

Michael,

great answer.

Me,

Now, I have to search more stats. Ahh, I’m too busy, traveling next week. May have to give it a miss this time.

running with the ball in the hands is simple enough – - they call that Rugby.

Now, bouncing it ever 10 metres, and kicking the ball (shaped as it is) on the run (often with a fellow baring down on you from behind, beside and infront)…..yep – - – real simple.

Catching a fairly large ball with you hands – - pretty simple if it’s a sphere – - but, then, all soccer goalies wear huge gloves and should never drop it (although, sometimes I figure the gloves can be a burden rather than a benefit, much prefer catching an outfield cricket ball in the hands than an outfield baseball in the ruddy great big glove).
Now – that fairly large oval shaped ball comes spinning in all different manners, and with the wind, may carry or drop suddenly – - – not so easy catching that wretched thing in the hands, especially if you are A. on the move yourself, and B. being contested by an opponent.

Dribbling a soccer ball is a pretty easy skill to practice, you can do it by yourself, personally I find the soccer ball quite enjoyable to kick around, as, being a regular shaped sphere, you can impart spin and curve on it with similar logic to what which one tries to apply on a pool table or golf course……..only, the soccer ball is a bit bigger, so, I generally hit the spot I was hoping for. Granted, doing it under pressure and with decent force behind it — that would require a bit more training.

The element of AFL is that it has a broader range of attributes. Now, Jim Stynes – - you need to remember was a ruckman at 2 metres tall. Playing the ball itself was not his primary role, he did however, develop a very simple and reliable kicking technique (given that he was a gaelic player – he already had most of the required technique and balance developed – - so, NOT that big a transition). He was very much head over the ball, and was very good over shorter distances – - he never was that great a booming long kick though. But – - he was able to make up for deficiencies in one area with strengths in other areas.

I reckon AFL allows a greater variety of developed attributes to earn a place – - that said, if it were played at a higher level than domestic clubs – - then, at that highest level, you couldn’t get by without a decent ‘wrong’ foot for example.

Comparing Gaelic to AFL is a bit like Indoor cricket to outdoor cricket – - different field, different ball, but, same fundamentals.

Errr want to check out the ABS figures on that one? Football has the highest participation levels of the 4 codes in Oz both at 5-14yo and 15 plus levels. Next theory?

Start off with hand eye coordination then move to eye foot coordination as in football. Which is the more difficult skill running with a ball in your hands or dribbling the ball at speed with your feet? Catching a fairly large ball with your hands or controlling the ball passed at speed with the foot or thigh or chest so it doesnt bounce away? Running (with the ball in your hands) or catching a ball are easier skills to learn than dribbling or controlling with the feet. Introduce opposition and all skills become more difficult to master. That is why athletes who have never played AFL can come in at a very late age and master the game eg Jim Stynes etc This doesnt happen in football because of the more complex and difficult skills

I’ve got 5 yr old twin boys – they were premmie, and have needed a bit of occupational therapy along the way – -but, doing just fine.

However, between everything including swimming, and kinda etc, little tacker soccer just wouldn’t serve any purpose for them – - they’re actually pretty okay at kicking a ball off the ground – - it’s the higher order co-ordination and strength that requires attention – - so, purely form an OT perspective – - auskick for example is the perfect blend.

Either that, or I’d have to send them to little tacker soccer AND basketball, and we just don’t have the time/money to do that.

It’s one of those things – - focus on a sport if you must, but, developmentally, I am saddened when I see some pushy parents forcing their kids to focus on soccer from age 3 (as one can see in the parks now and then when the dad berates the poor little kid for picking it up with his hands……..).

It reminds me of the Doctor Phil answer to a mum ringing through, asking about her 3 yr old who can count and read and etc etc, and asks “Is he gifted”, and Doctor Phil answers, ‘can he catch a ball’, basically, saying that gifted isn’t being an 8 year old who can’t catch a ball but CAN read Shakespeare. Kids need to be developed in a more all round manner, and then, their gifts will become apparent enough over time.

That happens often. Kids play soccer at an early age and then move on to RL. AFL, RU (CFL, NFL) depending on geographic location. The pattern has been happening for a long time and is consistent. Even in America where soccer participation is at its highest, the vast majority of kids move on to American Football in high school.

that’s not bad then, for Soccer 17 to 20% given a more ‘national’ spread, Aust Footy 11 to 14%.

Nice little relative growth rates there.

And, again, in the none core Aust Footy states – the fact that kids might play a bit of soccer – - all good – - they need to develop those foot kicking skills – so, along with their basketball – they might become better footy players.;-)

From 2006 ABS on 5-14yo sports participation %;
“Sports with most participants

Swimming was the most popular sport for children with a participation rate of 17% (462,500), followed by outdoor soccer with 13% (351,100). For boys, the most popular sports were outdoor soccer (20% or 268,500), swimming (17% or 225,700) and Australian Rules football (14% or 188,500). For girls, the most popular sports were swimming (18% or 236,800) and netball (17% or 224,100). ”
These figures are for out of school hours participation with the child being involved at least once. Trying to find a table with further breakdown.

Participant – - as per the ‘96 definition

“Includes those playing a sport or physically undertaking an activity. Excluded are people involved solely as a coach/teacher/instructore, a referee/umpire, an administrator/committee member or similar role.” It’s in the Glossary on the reports.

clubs and or social groups – -i.e. jogging won’t be counted if just an individual person going for an evening jog, but – -if as part of a jogging even social or work group – then it would.

They do have tables about frequency, as well as organised or not – - the other day I did present ABS stats showing that soccer and indoor and outdoor cricket all have a high level of ‘unorganized’ activity – - around 32 to 36%.

That’s interest. It might be that work groups/church groups etc might be more likely to have those sports as part of a social day. Perhaps those people then will fall into the irregular pariticipants category.

The 5-14 age group is light on the ground,

back in ‘96 it was recorded – -
at that time for boys
Soccer 17%, Aust Footy 11%, RL 6.5%, RU 2.2% and Indoor soccer 1.3%.

How representative that was, who knows, and I can’t find 5-14 data in 98/99 report or 05/06 report.

The cross over factor in respects to participation is still interesting, I saw on the weekend a report on a young kid, Watts, I forget the first name – - and, he’s been Aust Junior Basketball captain, and repped Aust just about all through the age groups – - and, he’s also been playing footy – - and he’s decided to nominate for the AFL draft. So, he’s got to age 17-18 and only deciding at this point. I know that many talented cricketer/footballers get to the same line in the sand point.

And that line in the sand point varies from sport to sport.

checking back in ‘98 ABS results

This is where it’s really interesting.

Male Female All
Aust Footy 145.6 to 148.9 to 240.8 //////- – - to – - -to 27.9 ///////146.4 to 157.4 to 268.7
2.1 to 2.2 to 3.1 //////- — to — to 0.3 //////1.1 to 1.2 to 1.7

A very healthy growth,

RL 78.4 to 77.1 to 91.2 //////4.6* to – — //////83.0 to 81.2 to 91.2
1.2 to 1.2 to 1.2 //////0.1 to – - – //////0.6 to 0.6 to 0.6

stagnate ratios, gradual growth in absolutes terms, but static in relative terms.

RU 64.8 to 70.2 to 71.1 //////4.8* to — to 7.7 //////69.6 to 72.3 to 78.9
1.0 to 1.1 to 0.9 //////0.1 to — to 0.1 //////0.5 to 0.5 to 0.5

See RL above, very similar.

soccer (indoor) 27.3 to 77.4 to 148.1 //////8.0 to —- to 47.5 //////35.3 to 84.2to 195.7
0.4 to 1.2 to 1.9////// 0.1 to — to 0.6 //////0.3 to 0.6 to 1.2

come from nowhere, big growth.

soccer (outd) 143.2 to 240.4 to 311.5 //////19.5 to 26.7 to 108.1////// 162.7 to 267.1 to 419.6
2.1 to 3.6 to 3.9 //////0.3 to 0.4 to 1.3 //////1.2 to 2.0 to 2.6

Interestingly, the big jump around ‘96 to ‘98 – - Male participation from 2.1 to 3.6, and subsequently, only progressed to 3.9. Overall growth is certainly boosted by the female side of things.

Touch 122.2 to 130.1 to 146.6////// 52.4 to 60.6 to 108.3////// 174.6 to 190.7 to 254.9
1.8 to 1.9 to 1.9 //////0.8 to 0.9 to 1.3 //////1.3 to 1.4 to 1.6

again, male side is relatively static, but, the female side has provided real growth both in absolute terms and relative.

so – - again, I look at all this, and, in more recent times Aust Footy has been a bit of a growth sport, and soccer, more so for women.

The current soccer participation rates in that respect aren’t much of an issue for the AFL world, because, they haven’t changed relatively that greatly since ‘98, whilst the Aust Footy participation rates amongst males have climbed from 2.2 to 3.1.

What would be interesting is to review the probably soccer spikes relative to WC campaigns – - and, the recognition now that perhaps, perhaps, the Asian WC campaign is more ‘visible’……but, really, there’s a difference between people being more likely to turn up to the 1 or 2 socceroos home town fixtures (as spread around the country) compared to those actually willing to get out and play the game at over 15 age level. So – - I don’t really reckon the ‘fad’ element applies at the participation level anywhere near the way it applies at sporting theatre attendance level – - as shown by Becksmania and Juvefever.