Agree but my order would be different, given the base all codes are currently on.

Football – growing qiuckly
AFL – growing slowly
RL – stable, maybe a small decline
Cricket – warning 20 20 may help but may also chase away existing base
RU – warning (Australia & SA only)
Baseball – trouble, heaps of present management model is not working, needs new blood / ideas or be reduced to park game soon.

Two rugbies will never merge as long as one sees an advantage in taking over from the other, greed, past history and both in real trouble for the merger to happen.

Gee you blokes are going to have to wait for awhile for AFL die off in Australia. good luck with that.

Sports interest in Australia:
AFL – growing
soccer – growing
RL – stable
RU – waning
cricket – waning
basketball – in trouble.

Basketball flies completely in the face of your arguments – its a world game with huge dollars on offer, in particular in the USA. Aussie Andrew Bogut has just secured a $80M contract to play in the NBA – but where is the NBL in Australia ?- its leaking, teams in major cities in trouble.

Its not that simple and the two rugbies will never merge.

Redb

You think having two football codes is too much?

Well that depends on how many teams each code has. So you are suggesting some downsizing. If two codes have to go, which ones are you suggesting?

I agree Melbourne’s connection to Australian football is very strong. i think it has already said but the ownership of the game is significant alone. The early affluence in terms of leisure time makes Melbourne unique in the late 1800s, I think the Melbourne Cup reached its status due to similiar reasons – very much it was about the foundation of Melbourne born in 1835, but it exploded in the 1850s gold rush. By the 1880s the city was still enjoying the benefits through to the early 1900s when it was the seat of federal power from 1901 to 1927 until Canberra was built.

Whilst Sydney’s population surpassed Melbournes many decades ago, Melbourne retained it’s identity and continued on as if nothing had happened in terms of power shift. Australian football has remained a constant through the ups and downs of Melbourne’s history – our own game – although you could argue that Adelaide, Perth and Hobart have been just as passionate for the last 100 years.

Whilst early in the 1900s the game expanded to NSW and QLD and even NZ participated in a Australasian carnival , decisions were made by Sydney power brokers to back rugby and Brisbane due to geographical separation more than anything was influenced by Sydney. That’s a simplistic assessment only.

The reality is adminsitrators of the VFL were based at club level and they navel gazed for 60-70 years last century before the VFL formed an independent commission and a decision such as the Swans move to Sydney in 1981 was made. By 1987 the game expanded again with West Coast and Brisbane, Port and Freo in 1996. So it really has only been in the last 20 years that the administrators of the game, now independent, took on the responsibility to grow the code beyond its traditional borders.

I know you like to look back at early mistakes made by soccer adminsitrators and infighting, etc, in reality this has been true of all codes at some stage.

Redb

I was quoting for Males around the states.

Soccer overall is about 75% male, 25% female. However, NSW represents effectively 52% of both the Male AND female Aust Soccer pariticpation.

Whereas Vic, is 50% of male in Aust Footy, but only 42% of female.

You’ll notice that Paul included ‘male and female combined’.

Soccer has the following traits :
higher proportion of ‘un-organised’ participation (around 35%)
higher proportion of female participation
higher proportion of older aged participation

so – - from the male professional window of codes – - there’s actually not so great an ascendancy held by soccer compared to someone for example who compares 420K participants over 15 in outdoor soccer to 268K in Aust Footy.

I know of a good number of people who after they’d finished playing footy – -took up soccer or basketball – - something a little ‘easier’.

Originally in Western Australia Rugby Union was the preferred sport however was displaced by Football around the time of our Goldrushes (the victorian miners coming across) not sure how this affects the debate but offers an isolated environment to try and comprehend why one code arose above the others.

A very well written article as well.

Thanks

But your reference to London EPL does not convey what I see as the % of the population who in Melbourne support a AFL team.

A small example a woman I worked with once from Melbourne, did not follow sport at all, hated it all even watching the Swans ……………. why I asked because they are not !!! ??? whoever it was as a kid her team. TBH you could name an AFL player and she would not know who you were talking about but she loved the AFL and her team.

In Sydney and NZ there is not this almost devotion to a code / team or both. Maybe you are to close or think other parts of the world are the same but Melbourne is unique with its support for AFL and I am interested in how this was and continues to be created.

In repsonse to your question below:

———–
“Redb, & MC

In as few words as possible (remember sever size limits) , can you explain AFL culture.? I have watched for years the crowds and given the population of Melbourne and the number of teams is ( I am guessing) the most supported crowd wise sport in the world.

So what creates the culture / mood of a city to be so involved in a sport, I can assure no sport in Sydney has ever had that level of support and emotional connection as the AFL has in Melbourne ……….. and to keep other’s happy you can expand to WA & SA if you like?? But I am more interested in Melbourne”
———

You can’t explain the connection of footy and Melbourne in words – I think Sheek touched on the affluence of Melb in the 1800s which introduced leisure time, I think the 8 hour day was also born in Melbourne. Most poeple use to work 6 days a week, sabbath on Sunday, then Mon-Fri and work Sat morning, eventually saturday afternoon became leisure time. Going to sport was a very early phenomen for Melbourne perhaps before other cities in OZ and other parts of the world.

Most of the sporting competitions in Australia started well after the VFA (1877), in world terms only England was earlier. (in general tersm there maybe exceptions) There is a definite affluence connection to leisure time available for sport. In the present day this is out of date. For reference: Melbourne to AFL is London to EPL.

Redb

Redb

I remember the same thing as you when I was a kid. I have a saying, “You don’t choose your footy team, it chooses you.” When I was 5 the Tigers chose me and they chose me good. But in the lean years I tried to choose the Swans. They were playing Sunday afternoons and I saw lots of games on TV and Warwick Capper was quite spectacular in those days. I am still an ardent Richmond supporter, as much as I get annoyed with the stupid management decisions that have been made over the years. Richmond chose me, I didn’t have a choice, I still don’t and I still love them. But in 2005 I sang the Swans club song as loud as any supporter when they won the premiership. The next generation will no doubt treat it quite differently.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/afl

have a quick look at the video footage of a few Carlton boys down with Juventus at Princes Park.

growing up in the bush, my main exposure (given I didn’t really know anything about any sport until I turned 8 and we got a tele!) was via the radio and trying to listen to games on Melb stations such as 3KZ, 3DB, 3UZ (crap, they did all the nags), even 3GL from Geelong (they would ONLY do Geelong games, and would even broadcast the last qtr of the magoos).

What I most notice coming to Melbourne to watch the footy – was all the dressed up people passing through Flinders St, Spencer St, and even North Melb station, depending where the games were, this was the days of all 6 games on a Saturday, or, at most – 1 Swans game on the Sunday.

And, because EVERYONE was going to games in the same sport, same league etc – - I reckon that’s just built and built upon itself. That’s the thing about a city that comes together. It wasn’t League vs Soccer vs Union – - it was only ever Carlton vs Collingwood vs Richmond etc etc. ALL the heroes and villains therefore were known to everyone.

It was ALWAYS safe territory at BBQs etc, probably even safer than Bathurst and Falcon vs Torana and Brock vs Moffat.

I must admit that I DO miss those days – that atmosphere, these days, there’s usually only one game on in town at any given moment, and, with more interstate teams – there may only be one batch of supporters ‘mobilised’ across town at the one time.

The city is poorer for that.

tee hee, sure can! I think I had it easy, although, as my aim got better, aiming kicks at cow pads was NOT actually the best strategy……but, to this day I can still drill a long pass out from full back – - and, thankfully I don’t have to visualize cow manure to achieve it.

1858 -

as per Geoffery Blainey :
“The matches played in 1858 are described in such meagure detail that it is impossible to know the main rules, but there survives an account of the first match of the following year, and it describes utter confusion. While some of the footballers insisted on picking up the ball or catching it or holding on to it, other players thought too much ball-handling was outrageous.”

Blainey suggests that “In Victoria the supporters of Rugby football were almost certainly outnumbered by those migrants who in England had played a different kind of football. Thus Eton and Harrow, Winchester and Marlborough and each of the well-known public schools of England played football according to its own rules. At Cambridge University the students arrived from such a diversity of footballing backgrouns that in the 1840s hockey was the more popular game largely because its rules could be agreed upon.

Sheek – - when you say ‘bits of soccer’ – - remember, soccer didn’t yet exist. And, just as Australian football was not a ‘once-only invention’ (as Blainey puts it), nor was soccer – - we know that the London 1862 rules had some evolution still to go – - fair catches, no x-bars, no corners etc – - the game of 1862 was hardly the game to become known as soccer.

btw – the famour Melb Grammar vs Scotch College game in August 1858 – - each team selected their central umpire (as if for cricket) – - Melb Grammar selected Tom Wills (he may therefore have umpired the previous match in June vs the St.Kilda school) and Scotch chose John Macadam, a 31 yr old doctor of medicine from Glasgow – who had lived the previous 3 years in Melbourne (btw – ’tis HIS name that is leant to the NUT). So – - first point – - how will a fellow from Glasgow who has lived in Melb for 3 years – how will he umpire a game of ‘football’?
Also note, the 3 most active Melb schools in these matches had headmasters from quite different backgrounds in England, Scotland and the Channel Islands. While they were conscious of the increasing emphasis on sports in public schools – - they had NOT come from schools that played the same (enough) code of football.
Had they all come from Rugby style schools – - then – without a doubt, and especially after the publication of “Tom Browns School Days” – - without a doubt, a Rugby game would have won out – - but, since there was no uniformity at any level – - i.e. amongst school headmaster, general ‘players’, those selected to umpire – - the result, as list above, was still “utter confusion” by early 1859.
The need for a single set of rules was obvious.

Sydney vs Melbourne sports rivalry – - -

sadly – - for people of my vintage, the Swans are everyones ’2nd’ team, because, throught the mid 80s, we saw them ‘live’ every 2nd Sunday.
Sad, sad, sad that I don’t wish them despair and misery. Sad that I very much enjoyed being in Sydney (Gosford) across the GF weekend in 2005 and really enjoyed the level of coverage up there – - I collected the papers at the time – - proof!!!

The first game of AFL may not have strictly been rugby. Nor was it AFL (naturally). As you basically suggest, it probably incorporated bits of rugby, bits of soccer, & bits of other things that the founding fathers hoped might prove beneficial to the new game.

When football clubs were first incoprorated may not necessarily coincide with their influence on a particular sport. But there is of course, more to the discussion……….

We don’t need to go into the 1858 debate. I’m happy to let you have your opinion on 1858 being a Rugby game, for the sake of avoiding an argument on the topic. Suffice it to say, that I think it is probably safer to say that it was neither a Rugby game nor an Australian Rules Football game, but rather an experimental game of football with very few rules, as were many of the games played at public schools in England at the time.

I would just like to correct you on your misassumption:

“By the time Australian football tried to break into NSW & Qld, rugby was firmly established.”

Here is a list of the first Australian Rules Football club to appear in each colony around Australia.

VIC
1859, May 14th, Melbourne Football Club.
1859- Castlemaine, Geelong, Melbourne University
1860- Ballarat
1862- Williamstown
1864- South Yarra; 2nd Williamstown; Carlton
1868- Wharehouse men Football Club
1869- North Melbourne
1871- Ararat
1873- Albert Park; Essendon; St Kilda; Hawthorn;
1874 Rochester (Goulburn Valley); South Melbourne; Port Melbourne
1876- Inglewood; Heidelberg
1877- Beechworth; Footscray;

Victorian Football Association formed in 1877 with 14 teams.

1879- West Melbourne
1883- Fitzroy
1892- Collingwood

SA
1860- Adelaide Football Club
1862 Modbury
1866- Kapunda
1868- Woodville; Gawler
1870- Port Adelaide
1872- Kensington
1874- Willunga
1877- South Adelaide; Bankers; South Park; Victorian;

The South Australian Football Assoication was formed on April 30th, 1877 with 12 teams.

1878- Norwood
1893- North Adelaide
1897- West Adelaide; West Torrens
1901- Sturt

QLD
1866- Brisbane Football Club
1870- Volunteer Artillery Football Club; Brisbane Grammar School; Civil Service Football Club; Ipswich

TAS
1864 New Town Hobart
1875- Launceston Football Club
1878- New Norfolk District

WA
1881- Unions Football Club Fremantle
1882- Fremantle Football Club
1885- Rovers Football Club Perth
1885- Victorians Football Club Perth

Western Australian Football Association formed in 1885.

NSW
1877 Waratahs played Australian Rules
1877 Sydney University played Australian Rules
1880 New South Wales Football Association formed
1881 First match between Victoria and NSW.
1882 Waratahs formerly switched from Rugby to Australian Rules
1903 NSW Football League formed with 11 teams.

NEW ZEALAND
By 1901 there were 115 clubs in New Zealand. New Zealand competed in the Jubilee Carnival in 1908 and won some games.

RUGBY

NEW ZEALAND
1863 Christchurch

NSW
1863 Sydney University
1865 Sydney Football Club

QLD
1880 Brisbane Football Club and Wallaroo played a game of Rugby
1883 Northern Rugby Union formed
1883 NSW team visited QLD
1884 Brisbane competition founded

Both New South Wales and Queensland were divided between Rugby and Australian Rules until the early 1900s. However Australian rules did make it to Qld before Rugby. Alternatively in Western Australia Rugby made it there before Australian Rules. Melbourne was the centre of Australian Rules but Adelaide became a second centre very quickly. Many wealthier Western Australians went to school in Adelaide and brought Australian Rules back with them. The Adelaide influence eventually won out in Perth. Sydney was divided until 1908, and then made a switch more to Rugby League than Union, away from Australian Rules. The Sydney influence won out in Brisbane.

The two cities of Melbourne and Sydney have influenced the football landscape for all of Australia. It could easily be argued that they will do the same in the 20th century. although Sydney is in a far more fractured position than Melbourne to do so.

Lazza,

You said:

“That’s the curious thing about the sporting landscape in Australia, we’ve never had a proper Sydney-Melbourne rilvalry in sport? Perhaps with Sheffield Shield in the 1930’s but both cities went their own way and one of the ‘potentially’ biggest rivalrys in world sport just never hapenned.

I think we are poorer for it.”

I agree that we are poorer for not having a real NSW v VIC rivalry in Australia. But there is no way that anyway can claim that Sydney FC v Melbourne Victory is a bigger rivalry than Sydney Swans v a Melb Aussie Rules club.

I look forward to the day when there is a genuiine State of Origin between Vic and Nsw. Of course I would prefer to see this in Aussie Rules, but would also be happy for a Rugby Union rivalry.

Joe O’Sullivan,

I am not disputing that Soccer has grown a lot recently (albeit how much of it is due to a lot of assistance from government hand outs). But I would say that if Soccer is ever to be Australia’s national football code, it has to be played in the Winter against the other football codes. You made the point that cricket is Australia’s national Summer sport. But would not soccer have to become Australia’s national Summer sport before it could be considered Australia’s national football code?

These days, through the media, most of us know enough about each of the footy codes to hold a conversation. That’s got to be a positive.

As you point out we Sydney siders do not go to the beach at night but maybe during the day we go out and to lazy to do two things, i.e. day trip and go to the footie at night.

Did not know Perth was in discussion, but agree AFL is huge there (never said it was otherwise).

Good to see sport is a big part of Melbourne weekend life as well.

LOL MC you said (Perisher is almost closer to Melbourne!) meaning it must be closer to Sydney (who cares I don’t go to the snow)

Redb, & MC

In as few words as possible (remember sever size limits) , can you explain AFL culture.? I have watched for years the crowds and given the population of Melbourne and the number of teams is ( I am guessing) the most supported crowd wise sport in the world.

So what creates the culture / mood of a city to be so involved in a sport, I can assure no sport in Sydney has ever had that level of support and emotional connection as the AFL has in Melbourne ……….. and to keep other’s happy you can expand to WA & SA if you like?? But I am more interested in Melbourne.

We have snow in Victoria too – actually, quite a bit very, very close to Melbourne. A bit closer than Perisher is to Sydney (Perisher is almost closer to Melbourne!)

Bob -

you shoulda seen me taking chunks out of footys by kicking and handballing them up against the old ‘brink wall’ at primary school – - the rebound is always hard to anticipate – - a bit like Bradman hitting the golf ball against the corregated tank.

And, growing up on a farm, I would spend all arvo out kicking the footy to myself, running 30 metres to mark it, practice sprinting in to pick up the ball on the run etc…….but – - like most really good things – - footy is best practiced with a friend!!!!!

Midfielder -

running down the clock is only as easy as the capacity to find teammates by themselves in space, or at least with space to lead into. I hate, hate, hate seeing North Melb try to run down the clock – - they don’t do it well. With no off-side, it is too easy to stuff it up and concede a goal. the best way to win a close game is to kick the next goal. 30 seconds – you can run down the clock – but, 2 mins out, that’s super dangerous, because, you too soon find yourself going back, and back and when you can’t go back any further you can’t just kick it to the goal keeper (granted, you can rush a behind, but, that may not be an option if you’re defending a 1 pt lead!!).

Lazza -

Sweeney report – remember – ONLY capital cities, and the ‘interest’ includes having watched on tele, read in paper, checked on internet or attended – the thing with soccer is that we know so much of that interest traditionally has been on checking the EPL results, watching the FA cup, etc etc – - the Sweeney report probably needs to specify Australia only or something like that.

Midfielder -

chicken and egg re the media and football – - I don’t see what the issue is – - football became the biggest thing in town very early, 130 odd years ago – - what was the media to do – - NOT report it? Ignore it? Tell everyone, hey, guess what they’re playing in London!!

Lazza –
yep, FA cup in London – - still, nothing of note happening in Sydney – - and, still, Sheffield and the northern leagues were only on the verge of effectively ‘joining’ the London leagues – - the final hybrid set of soccer rules was still morphing – - and Rugby just on the verge of being defined – - – and, so, in that 1870s period England was still exporting football confusion.

Melbourne by that point was approaching 20 years of refining a single set of rules.

Makes a difference – - it meant that people coming out from England weren’t really in a position to tell a Melbournian they were wrong.

Tonnes of sport played by all levels in Melbourne on the weekends. Australian rules is the biggest participant sport (check Sweeney)

Well some classic cliche views of Melbourne here. Straight up – how do you explain Perth they are just as passionate about AFL in winter and have equal weather, boating,etc as Sydney. Melbourne has some spectacular national parks, that’s good un. Please give me an example of the tens of thousands of Sydneysiders that must flock to the beaches at night when half of Sydney’s sporting events are on? Is that where the 16,000 odd who could have filled the seats at SOO were?

Helped by media – another fallacy. try this, Melb media pander to the Melb public – end of story.

It is most certainly part of the culture to go the AFL – that’s becuase it is an entertaining game.

The only comment which I agree with is the transport scenario between the two cities. Sydney’s great natural beauty is its downfall ,every time you build a road you have to build a bridge. The population difference and geographical footprint of the cities are within 10% of each other.

as for your last comment, if you take a mark or get a freekick you get 15 seconds (not sure of time exactly) before the umpire calls play on. Teams do play keepings off with about 1 minute to go, you can counter this with man on man tactics.

Redb

Cong’s on a good thread, my two cents worth is it is impossible to compare Sydney & Melbourne from a sporting sense as there are two many variables and differences.

However there are three points made in Paul’s orginal thread and latter comments that sit as points that are different.

First the location and difficulity of getting around Sydney (everything is realative I know) compared to Melbourne would effect many things apart fom sporting events, but it has an impact.

Second, Spiro’s point about free trade, I have similar throughts but more akin to I think the people of Melbourne believed this is our game and it is to be protected and helped as much as possible, this especially so in the media.

Third, While it is hard to get to sporting grounds it is easy to get to a beaches, lakes, national parks, mountains and so there is a lot to do in winter when it is dry and warm in the sun so being outdoors is fun.

A couple more I have is and I think someone mentioned a similar thing, is that it would appear in Melbourne it is part of the culture to go to the AFL, re enforceing the this is our game and lets protect it.

I am not sure of Melbourne, but in Sydney there are heaps of players in most sports and playing sport and attending games is hard. Like I normally play on Saturday at 3:15 finish game about 17:00 have a beer and chat get home about 18:00.

Finally I am glad of the choice and watch most played all,

I played three park rule games of AFL against a rugby team at the start of the year to build some fittness for both teams, at half time in the first game we spilt the teams to be half rugby and half football team, rugby could not hold position. We just held the ball and scored. I mention this not to stir ………… but to ask a geniune question …………. if I was coach of an AFL team in a grand final with 10 mins to go and I was in front by 12 points, then why can’t you just hold the ball by kicking it to someone in space and win by just keeping the ball.

At the end of the day Melb and Sydney don’t exactly love each other, but nothing can better shutting up a Collingwood or Carlton fan. Likewise in the RL SOO NSW v QLd.

You can’t wish rivalries to occur they just evolve – so it could happen in the HAL, but the biggest rivalry?, i dont think so. Like the Melb Storm, Sydney Swans, Sydney Fc and Melb Victory are relatively new teams, it takes time for them to absorb into the sporting consciousness. I still rate Essendon as more important than any other sporting team. (pity at the moment) To win the premiership is heaven. If you want to win me you need to have red and black (pity the North Sydney bears became extinct)

True Tah, our standard response to NSW having more cricketers in the OZ team is that the AFL takes all the best athletes and were sticking with that . even in cricket, the national game we don’t really care if NSW beats Victoria or vice-versa, we care much more about beating England.

Redb

Read the Sweeney Report on the Web. Soccer definately has strong and uniform support across the country at 51% interest. That’s what makes it unique amongst the football codes. Others are bigger in their home states but fall off sharply when you cross the Murray.