By The Substitute
June 4th 2008 @ 4:36am
Loading ...The A-League is about to put the other codes to shame
A week ago I was so irate that I was almost prepared to denounce my football fanhood for good. Frank Lowy made comments about introducing a promotion and relegation system for the A-League and I just lost it.
The salary cap would die, I thought. Aussies won’t take to the idea, I thought.
I foolishly saw this as an attempt from Frank Lowy to exert his club-centric, Europeanized, traditionalist views on the Australian public.
But then I saw the genius in it all.
How blind I was to blog in a manner so vehemently opposed to such a brilliant idea. All I had to do was let go of the salary cap and then it just hit me like a moment of epiphany.
Confused? Let me enlighten you.
One of the main benefits football has over other codes is that is not bounded by traditional “strongholds” like League has with New South Wales and Queensland or like AFL has with the southern states.
It is, in a sense, a national game. Not because it has the highest level of support across the country, but because it has a fairly good standing across all states, not just a handful of them.
Promotion and relegation would exploit this leg-up and help football reach its full potential – and then some – by taking advantage of one of the biggest holes in the Australian sporting landscape. (No, I’m not talking about the Gold Coast or West Sydney).
A “PandR” system would offer citizens of regional centres the opportunity to follow a team that genuinely competes at a national level.
Even if they seem perennially bound to participating in a second-tier competition, the door is always open to move up from the AL2 (well, at least it’s better than the “B-League”) and into the A-League. Then chuck in an annual crack at the big boys through the mooted FFA/Australia Cup and you practically have a top flight team.
The Darwins, Tasmanias and Sunshine Coasts of this world can finally see their region represented at the highest level.
Through the magical wonder that is PandR, football can afford to hand out licenses to these cities without using them simply to make up the numbers or having them drag down the value of broadcast rights. They will either hover down the bottom of the A-League or make up the AL2.
Can the AFL afford this luxury?
Heck no.
As much as the AFL would like to give a new team to Tasmania, the fact is it would drag down the value of broadcast rights, because it is a fairly small market compared to the options north of the border and it is already AFL territory, so there aren’t any more fans left to convert.
As for league, it seems unlikely the competition could mount a serious blockade to football’s raid either. Although David Gallop’s expansion plans, which seemed crazy at first, are closer to the mark than what everyone first anticipated.
As for union, well, it would be happy to just get a fifth local team at this stage.
The only other option for rival codes is to build a strong second-tier competition, but given the ARU’s recent attempts, that could prove difficult. Such a move would be particularly controversial in AFL circles where the SANFL and WAFL seem intent on keeping whatever is left of their VFL-destroyed significance.
But even if such an example was to happen, without promotion and relegation – without the chance to “mix it with the big boys” – it all becomes a much harder sell.
One gets the feeling that by the time rival codes wake up to this fact, it will all be too late.
Football is about to, quite literally, take over the country and it is going to put rival code’s expansion plans to absolute shame in the process.
So well done, Frank Lowy, you really are the genius I thought you were before last week. I offer my sincerest apologies.
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Redb said | June 4th 2008 @ 6:12am | Report comment
I think your over selling the appeal of a B League. Second tier competitions really struggle in this country. Fans tend to follow the top end of each sport whether its cricket, AFL, rugby,etc.
The A League has done a good job to date, but its crowds are still lower than traditional sports in say Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide, Brisbane and Perth – the main markets. Its premature in some respoect to create a second teir, the first tier still has some way to go.
There is no doubt that in the vacuum of no AFl or NRL teams in some regional centres there are possibilities to fill the void with a cheap B League team, but what sort of standard are you expecting? The A League currently does show Australias best soccer players, the B League will be filled with leftovers and the fans will know it.
Frank Lowy suggested an expanson team for the Pacific Islands – 11 million people, therefore 11 million more viewers in Frank’s view – keh? Reality check for soccer – don’t assume total support for socceroos translates to total support for soccer in terms of crowds, TV ratings,etc. The pull through of the Socceroos will help, but not to the extent that all soccer, even the lcoal park juniors will become sports worship magnets.
Redb
sambobly said | June 4th 2008 @ 6:36am | Report comment
Soccer won’t take over the country. The other sports are too entrenched and soccer is bloody boring to boot. Second division soccer? If the premier stuff in this country is third rate how can a second division competition draw crowds?
sheek said | June 4th 2008 @ 7:09am | Report comment
Actually,
One decent comment The Subtitle makes, is the fairly even distribution of soccer ‘love & support & standing’ across the country.
P & R wouldn’t work in RU or RL for example, because the strength of both codes is in NSW & QLD. Teams from Vic, SA & WA would be doomed to spend their lives in the lower divisions for decades. Ditto AFL, where the strength is in Vic, SA & WA.
Yet perversely, even if say WA teams were trapped in 2nd division of A-League, I imagine the support would still be considerable, because “their time would come”.
It’s horses for courses, if you follow me. What mightn’t work for AFL, RU & RL can work for soccer.
Redb, it’s true we Aussies aren’t much interested in second tier comps, but soccer seems capable of breaking this mould.
Sambobly, I wouldn’t discount the ability of soccer to do anything. For a bloody boring sport, it’s somehow managed to become the most popular footy code on the planet!
So the rest of us should respect what soccer is capable of, whatever our personal feelings. I also apologise for calling football ’soccer’, it’s merely convenient as a point of differentiation from AFL.
Redb said | June 4th 2008 @ 8:36am | Report comment
Sheek,
I doubt soccer will be any different to other levels of sport in Australia – P an R may work where soccer is the traditional or historical code.
I’ll get accused of being naysayer again,
but the A League should expand to 12 teams, consolidate and expand again if the situation warrants. Who in all seriousness would support a second rate team in a comp where the premier division does not even offer the best soccer players.
Hubris is alive and well in the soccer camp these days.
Redb
Koala Bear said | June 4th 2008 @ 9:29am | Report comment
The Substitute,
great article and I will admit to the same sentiments, and then started to come around.. My only problem is that with a promotion and relegation system is that after 5 years in; we could end up with what may be a State League instead of a National league with say all of the big players in Sydney and the Perth, Phoenix, and Roar in a second division..
So I feel that although its inevitable and must come in sooner rather than later, we need to keep our eye on the ball, with our current agenda and not jump over to the next stage prematurely. I feel that we should at this point in time, continue to expand the league to 12 teams for the present.. But, to continue with the planning and feasibility studies, to where these teams are to be located. Also to ensure that the promotion and relegation system does not produce a league just concentrated in two Major cities. That is the challenge as I see it; to create a model to suit Australian conditions and not a model that is based on a European Leagues..
~~~~~~~~
KB
Treizistes said | June 4th 2008 @ 10:02am | Report comment
All smoke and hot air just like the AFL in regards to taking over NSW.
Give it up, not everyone is stupid.
Soccer said | June 4th 2008 @ 10:07am | Report comment
Great article.
It made me tingle a little bit with the possibilities of football in Australia.
A good point you brought up about smaller towns and areas of Australia which would probably never be considered for an A-League license as the populations are too small. But if you give them a team to support and that team has a chance of making it to the top-league or getting the chance to face off against the Sydneys and Melbournes in an FFA Cup then amazing things could happen to the Aussie sporting landscape
Midfielder said | June 4th 2008 @ 10:33am | Report comment
Just to add to your article a bit from the smh and finding teams is not proble.
Ten bids to battle it out for A-League berths
SYDNEY
3 June 2008
Ten expressions of interest from groups interested in obtaining a license for a Hyundai A-League club were considered by the Board of Football Federation Australia (FFA) today.
“The number of proposals we have received reflects the momentum behind the growth and development of the Hyundai A-League,” said FFA CEO, Ben Buckley.
The regions covered by the proposals are western Sydney, Wollongong, Melbourne, the Gold Coast and Townsville.
Buckley said FFA had received a new bid from a leading Gold Coast businessman, Clive Palmer.
“We will now start exclusive negotiations with Mr Palmer’s consortium, Gold Coast United.”
Buckley said that FFA was also in active discussions with two consortia interested in a Townsville-based Hyundai A-League Club – led by Melbourne businesswoman Milissa Fischer, and local businessman Don Matheson.
“We are having further discussions with both Ms Fischer’s and Mr Matheson’s groups and we expect to be entering into exclusive negotiations with one of them by the end of this month,” Buckley said.
Other proposals received today include three seeking to have the second Melbourne license, two groups vying for the western Sydney license and one covering Wollongong and the NSW south coast.
The FFA Board Hyundai A-League Expansion sub-Committee will consider the Melbourne, western Sydney and Wollongong proposals further, and will determine a process and timeframe to award further licenses.
“We are very encouraged with the level of interest in the Hyundai A-League,” Buckley said.
“Since it commenced three years ago, it has had ‘cut through’ in the busy Australian sporting landscape with average crowds, viewership, membership, media coverage and profitability trending upwards each season.
“The attractiveness of the competition is clearly reflected in the level of interest in the additional licenses.”
FFA’s view is that the Hyundai A-League has the capacity to be at least a 12 team competition.
“When and where we expand the competition is measured simply by whether it is right for football, right for the existing Hyundai A-League clubs, right for the new clubs and right for the local community,” Buckley said.
Millster said | June 4th 2008 @ 10:41am | Report comment
My only issue is with the cost side of the equation for the B-LEague teams.
Its one thing to fund a club with 3000-5000 fans in a regional base if all games are played in the region or state. But for Griffith United to regularly fly to play Broome FC is one hell of an additional financial strain.
I am NOT bagging the idea and my posts some moths back would show anyone that I am crying out for a breaking away from the artificial, closed-competition, salary-capped, draft-picking, franchise model with the resulting faux-premierships that AFL and NRL provide.
But I also think we need an Aussie model that recognises the particular strengths and challenges of our land. Its one thing to have a national B and C comp in England, in Belgium or in Japan, where travelling can be done by coach and distances are at most in the hindreds of kilometres. But for us, I think a conference/regional variant needs to be considered at that lower level.
Redb said | June 4th 2008 @ 10:48am | Report comment
Millster,
Doesn’t the A League have salary caps? Doesn’t the A League have franchises?
The AFL has membership based club ownership, nothing faux about it.
Redb
Midfielder said | June 4th 2008 @ 10:51am | Report comment
Treizistes
I played RL at a semi professional level with Guildford ……….. grew up in Fairfield ………… followed Manly and had a fight every day with a kid because I did, my all time best player any code is a spilt between Bobby Fulton & Harry Kwell.
Football is now well managered, I trust Frank Lowy and Ben Buckley look to the previous post if you have any doubt. Also has been said by many in NRL that A-League & NRL can share grounds and costs and work towards each other mutual benefit (notice it has been NRL people offering the olive branch)
So leave us along or be like Sheek & Redb and support your arguement with some logic.
P & R is still years away, but a plan on how to introduce it ………… how big the A-League will be ……………. if a Pacific team will be entered …………. if Singapore will be invited …………. rules to second tear will all be out there by the end of October. Football road map if it were to its future directions.
Me I still support Manly …………. hate Brisbane …………. loth Parramatta …………….. support the Mariners ………. follow the Woodies in union. Sorry AFL people as much as I appreciate the skills of the sportsman playing AFL I cannot get into it.
Most of all I want football based on its own merits, and therefore to commard rather than demand respect, be allowed to continue to grow and be accepted as a mainstream / traditional Australian sport. But I wish no other sport any harm and have a soft spot for union as my sons played it for years. I have also often said football past problems where often of there own making.
So continue if you like but please not at as was your last post.
Towser said | June 4th 2008 @ 11:07am | Report comment
I’ve already made several points on this in an earlier post under another subject heading.
However I’ll repeat a few.
First of all P& R is not an option. Sepp Blatter also added weight to the ratings table of the AFC that P&R is how he expects the game to develop across the emerging football nations.
I agree with the thrust of this article that the biggest advantage Football has over any other sport except cricket is that it has a truly national following ,albeit traditionally at a lower intensity overall than AFL in the Southern States & RL in NSW/QLD.
As a migrant who has lived in nearly all states & has always been connected with Football in Australia I know this to be true because it is post war migration that has spread the game nationally. To the point that Socceroos can come from every state & players from every state can play in top European Leagues.
The clubs in every state are a mixture of district & Mono clubs,but make no mistake the so called & much maligned “Ethnic Clubs ” have contributed in a massive way to the creation of football in Australia as a “Secondary ” national sport.
So far this latent secondary national “feel” has had no real platform to develop into a “First tier ” National sport.
The Socceroos are important in this respect but without strong truly National domestic Leagues not enough.
The A-League has started off in my opinion with the correct blueprint for the game to grow Nationally.
Firstly one club from the main cities with 2 regional clubs added. Both good examples for other regional clubs to follow as role models,particularly Central Coast Mariners.
Slowly more clubs are being added & the calibre of people wanting in has stepped up a level with the pending ownership of “Gold Cost United” by Queenslands richest man. The FFA are not rushing Frank Lowy moves when the timing is right & the jigsaw fits not until.
But as I stated in my previous post this comes with a massive proviso,lots of money & I mean lots to prop up a second division whilst participating clubs find their feet.
Japan is prepared to wait 100 years to develop their football via a P&R system. But they have more money to splash around than this country.
Where will we get the money?
Firstly from an increased TV deal & sponsorship increases.
Secondly I hope from the AFC who I believe should help if they are committed to P&R amongst their member nations.
As I said before if cricket can find billions from one Asian country to fund the IPL given the number of billionaires in Asia,then surely football can(Thai bloke bought Man City for instance).
P&R is a sign of strength in a sport. It means that throughout the country there is enough support for a particular sport for the top to support whats beneath ,because whats beneath cares enough to want to be the top.
I firmly believe Football has that support throughout the country from my own personal football experience in Australia & the reasoning above.
Given what has happened in football in the last 3 years I believe the money will be found to create & uphold a second division. Not today, but tomorrow & not until the A- League has developed a stable & financially viable 12 or 14 team first Division.
Paul said | June 4th 2008 @ 11:08am | Report comment
Oh Hallelujah, we will all be converted from our heathen codes to the one true game.
Substitute, I am so sick and tired of this talk that soccer is better than the other sports. Also, up until now even you have been saying that soccer will not take over. How is this not a declaration of football war in your mind?
I expected better of you.
The AFL are not blind, and I think soccer has a much tougher road ahead than you Frank Lowy worshippers believe.
Koala Bear said | June 4th 2008 @ 11:39am | Report comment
Millster,
I totally agree with you.. It can not be a total European style model, and we need a promotion and relegation model base on the conference style of the USA. Someone posted that fair suggestion up; I can’t remember who it was, but, it seemed to me that traveling all over Australia will send it bankrupt; as it did with the Rugby U Club Championships in their first season, it went into $7m debt with averaging only 4k-5k attendances..
We must not make that same mistake, and we should look at the state leagues first to see how we can stitch them up to the A-League.. To have a promotion and relegation play off at the end of the season, as we just witnessed in the EPL created enormous interest in England and even here in Australia.. Something we should keep in mind when we introduce an Australian Model..
I also agree with you the current models of NRL and AFL are too contrived with salary caps first pick drafts etc it is just rewarding mediocrity and not incentive based.
~~~~~~~
KB
Supastrika said | June 4th 2008 @ 11:41am | Report comment
Substitute, i think you may be reading a lot more intothe FFA and Mr Lowy’s genius thinking than you need to. Think of it a bit more like this .
We want the World Cup in 2018 (despite all insiders views that say it is highly unlikely) , BUT Mr Bloatter (the o is there for a reason) has said JUMP !! So we just asking him how high we have to jump. 2nd division…..yes sir no sir 3 more bags of money for you sir…….here is our second league. I think its more about posturing to FIFA to get the World Cup.
I think that there is nothing more exciting than having a promotion and relegation system in sport, in my view it is what all codes league should have. However i remain unconvinced that it can work in Australia without a considerable amount of funds from the National federation and a lot of time to build it up. I think what the issue here is, what happens when a nearly bankrupt Sydney FC or Roar goes down…….they have no means of supporting themselves in the lower tier, and the fans will desert them. You only need to look at match attendance in the A-league to see when a team is losing the gate falls away (with most the exceptions maybe Adelaide, and CC) quite dramatically. What about stadium deals that are being signed up, say Gold Coast signs a 5 year deal for a stadium , gets relegated and then the promoted team is from Darwin……dont think they are going to take over the stadium deal and Gold Coast wont open the stadium for 1500 fans. You should know that the newly State games up here get about 100-1000 fans per game.
And we havent even thought about travel costs, loss of playesr when your relegated. Its going to cost big money to support.
It is a great idea but i think its impractical , right now , but i would be happy to be proven otherwise.
Lazza said | June 4th 2008 @ 12:03pm | Report comment
Paul,
You will be never open your mind to Football, you just consider it a threat to the AFL and won’t give it any credit.
Football is targeting the current and next generation of sports fans. They have been brought up with easy travel, the Internet and Pay TV are much more knowlegdable about all sports compared to the baby boomers. Franchises are falling over themselves to get into the A League and the Socceroos are playing competitive matches in front of sell out crowds around the country. No longer do we have to wait 4 years for a quality meaningful game. There’s a 2 year marathon of WC qualifiers and then the World Cup itself followed by the Asian Cup. All COMPETIVE games and all played in front of good crowds. There were 50k at Suncorp last Sunday, a lazy 44k at Telstra Dome last Friday to watch a ‘friendly’ club game.
When the next TV contract comes into force in about 4 years time, the Socceroos will be on FTA TV rating anything between 1-4 million per match and the A League will be shown to an even bigger audience. It will be a lot harder to deny reality then.
Promotion and relegation may be a long term goal but I think it will happen eventually. Like all leagues in this country, when your team is struggling, what have you got to play for? Draft picks? P/R is the best concept ever developed in sport.
Redb said | June 4th 2008 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
Towser,
Good reasoned post. I think Millster is also correct re travel issues in OZ are a nightmare and thus big dollars with little return are required. As is the point about stadium deals.
Substitute,
“Football is about to, quite literally, take over the country and it is going to put rival code’s expansion plans to absolute shame in the process”
I think this statement is highly questionable.
Redb
Ben of Phnom Penh said | June 4th 2008 @ 12:27pm | Report comment
The idea of a P&R system has its merits and as has been noted that there are considerable obstacles in terms of finance and support that can be garnered at this early stage in the A-League development. I believe a second tier needs to be national and as such would require significant subsidies from the FFA to exist. This can only occur once TV rights and other revenue streams have increased by orders of magnitude from current levels. Then there would be the need to compromise; a subsidized second tier will mean less funds for other areas of development such as youth, national teams and womens football. Hence the business model will need to show that the second tier is a better investment in the longer term future of football in the country than these alternative investment options. Timing is the key here and as I’ve said before we have to wait a little while yet however it is healthy for the debate to rage in the meantime.
Michael C said | June 4th 2008 @ 12:40pm | Report comment
WIthout reading any other responses = my first thoughts are:
Australia is a big country – - travel issues – - means at very least a ‘conference’ style divisionisation – - except – - that, as with most things, if we could just ignore Perth it’d be a whole lot easier!!!!
Dilution of the small domestic market – - presently, for all the supposedly latent soccer support/interest/participation – - the fact that nationally only 50-70K attend every week – - thus far, it’s not an overly ‘mobilised’ market place. Perhaps this would actually weaken some of the existing franchises – - – because, it already appears that ‘local interests’ and perhaps dreams of future participation may be holding people back from jumping on the SFC bandwagon – especially. In a small domestic market this may actually apply brakes on the ability of a MVFC or SFC to become a rampant super club (not bad for the validity of the ‘local’ competition BUT, not flash for trying to take on Asian clubs).
It’d to greatly dilute the tv interest as well – - by focussing too much importance on the local club as being a direct (or 1 step removed potential) competitor with the SFCs and MVFCs etc, it breaks down what has been achieved by making these ‘one team for one city’. (and, actually, the potential expansions clubs waiting in the wings will likely do this too, if done too soon – - there just seems a bit of impatience – - but, the AFL is guilty of that too, I speculate the NRL can’t afford to do to much, and might actually be best served by being FORCED to be patient).
Maybe, people might opt to support Epping whilst also supporting MVFC, but, there would be harbored desires to challenge the ‘big boys’.
The finances and player depth etc – - that’d be a challenge.
So much would seem reliant on the soccer scoring system providing mostly low scoring matches and allowing a perception of eveness.
It is a ‘nice’ idea. But – - soccer is far from number one in the market place – and, even if it might be the best ‘average’ or best lowest common denominator in the national market place – - the fact is it’s no where near number one market by market (except maybe Gosford??). So – - modelling based on England, or Germany – - that seems to be folly – - or, far sighted wishful thinking.
btw – - invariably, in the other codes – - the 2nd tier really only operates efficiently as a ‘feeder’ league – - more based on the US Majors and Minors modelling. That probably, for so many reasons, still holds best in the Australian market.
Well – the above is mainly re. the 2nd tier PandR system. But, no reason not to have some form of FA Cup equivalent.
Lazza -
44K, at the TD – - most were there purely and simply because of their Italian heritage to see Juventus. And, the irony was the bigger write up in the social pages in the paper than the sports section. Now – - if it were 44K for a freindly between SFC and MVFC – - then, that’d be something big. There is a track record in Melb of coming out to see big international soccer teams – - the only thing that changed was it wasn’t the Socceroos playing them, but, on some previous examples the socceroos pulling power wasn’t that flash.
Lazza said | June 4th 2008 @ 12:51pm | Report comment
Michael C,
According to the Sweenet Report, Football is currently No. 3 in the country with only Cricket and AFL having more interest. Football and Cricket are neck and neck with Football pulling ahead after the last WC and Cricket regaining No. 2 after the Ashes.
I’m sorry to keep bringing up Sweeney but a lot of people here just keep pulling out ‘facts’ and opinions out of their backsides. Most baby boomers don’t even know the true sporting landscape in their own country. How many times do you hear AFL/RL fans say that there sport is ‘Australian’ rather than a ‘regional’ sport which is more accurate. They might be big but they have never been truly national sports. Only Cricket and Football have been able to manage that.
Bobby Freakout said | June 4th 2008 @ 1:21pm | Report comment
I support the concept of a national second division with p/r but I wonder with the NYL coming in next year, where the 8 current clubs will basically be able to double their squad sizes by filling them with the best young talent in Australia, will this leave a sufficient talent pool to warrant a national second division?
No one has mentioned this as yet but the quality of a national second division would certainly be questionable if (based on a 12 team A-League) the best 450 odd players in the country are already signed with A-League clubs through the senior squad or NYL squad.
Redb said | June 4th 2008 @ 1:21pm | Report comment
Lazza,
Let’s not get into the definition of national too much .Sweeney suggests national sports interest of AFL at 56%, soccer at 51% – therefore AFL has more market share nationally than soccer. Your argument is that soccer has a more even share and I agree to some extent, but it clearly not as holistic as you suggest (soccer stronger in NSW than Vic/WA for example) . Where AFL is strong, soccer maybe second, where NRL is strong, soccer maybe second, but second is still second at least for a domestic sports comp level in which the A league and its proposed 2nd tier would operate, that is, no national team in the Socceroos to create pull through.
Thus second in terms of passion, crowds, TV ratings, sponsorship, merchandise the lot. Most people are not multi code fans.
There is a small but growing level of delusion in soccer in OZ that the people of Tasmania, Darwin and Sunshine Coast for example will flock/watch soccer overnight becuase whammo they now have a team. I think this can work in time if that team is successful, but if they are getting flogged and the pool of total teams is now greater (therefore less chance of success), albeit in two tiers, most of the second tier will attract bugger all. Clubs need success to build fans, sponsorship,etc to buy players grow the brand, etc.
Feel free to pigeon hole these comments as an AFL fan if you like, but other sports such as basketball prove its not that simple. Again, most people are not multi code or multi team. Most have only one passion and the rest of the time are theatre goers/bandwagoners and are interested in successful teams. Rep teams are different, but i would argue patriotism for our country/state is the passion not deep down traditional passion for your club.
Redb
Balieyes said | June 4th 2008 @ 1:29pm | Report comment
A-League:
Roar
Sydney FC
Melbourne Victory
Perth
Adelaide Utd
Wellington
Central Coast
Newcastle
South Melbourne
Western Sydeny
Gold Coat
Townsville
A-League 2:
Geelong
Wooloongong
Tasmania
Canberra
Sunshine Coast
Coffs Harbour
Adelaide City
Manly United
Towser said | June 4th 2008 @ 1:41pm | Report comment
Most posts seem to indicate that a steady as we go approach is needed.
The reality is there is no other way.
The reality also is as Millster said & Redb supported that Big dollars for little return are needed.
No big dollars no second division,its as simple as that.
But given that the support money is forthcoming from whatever source, we need look no further than CCM for the role model for a second division club.or for that matter Wellington.
Both are blueprints for starting up clubs from areas that had previously no real history of supporting football.
The NZ Whatevers were a blueprint of what not to do.
IF these 2 clubs can acheive what they have in a short space of time there is no reason that other clubs from regional areas and 2nd or 3rd teams from Sydney & Melbourne(could be Geelong)plus maybe a Christchurch,Islander( based PNG?),Singapore,even East Timor down the track.
Population also is a given for growth no matter what support money there is available. No point in a LIsmore,Bathurst Whyalla or Albany teams etc.
We are not Europe in this respect ,where small clubs from small towns are supported by hundreds of years of community history & never expect to reach the EPL for instance.
All clubs in Australia or our region must come from areas where the population is substantial enough to support the crowd average of the first division, if they are promoted.
Meaning that the second division club always has the potential population wise to support a first division standard attendance.
That way we keep up a standard & that is why I dont support anything less than a well thought out(in terms of population & capacity to grow) plan regarding locations.
That is why I disagree with Millster & KB. Conferences work effectively in countries with massive populations & state league teams ,because they are supported by small population groups ,will drag the league down.
The A-League has to be National & cover regional areas to work effectively . You are right KB this is not Europe ,Australia is uniquely placed ,its population is spread out as it is in the region that is why clever picking of areas with adequate population is necessary to maintain a uniform football standard that can cover both divisions.
I grew up next to Chesterfield ,Doncaster,Mansfield. All small towns all historically by population ,never destined to ever produce anything but mediocre football clubs languishing in the lower divisions of English Football.
Twas always thus,Twill always be so.
Throw in small towns ,small state league clubs in an A-League 2nd division & watch the A-League dragged down.
True Tah said | June 4th 2008 @ 1:44pm | Report comment
Firstly I think the title of this thread is a bit over the top, as I don’t think the NRL and AFL should feel ashamed expanding a second division comp/
Secondly, while there has been much said about a having the B-league in place, I think there is just too much blocking a successful implementation.
Several have alluded to cost – particularly travel, say from Darwin to Tasmania. P and R systems work in European sports because of the geographic proximity of clubs. However, Europe and Australia are incredibly different in terms of population distribution. Look at Perth Glory, they came last in 2007-08. If they got relegated, unless the team from the B-League was from WA too, there would be no top-level soccer being played in WA at all. Given the crowds for the Glory have been abysmal last season, I don’t think Glory playing in the B-League would do much better, I fail to see how it would help soccer in WA remain a vibrant spectator sport?
If a club like Sydney FC got relegated, how would this impact their image as the “glamour club” of the comp? I appreciate that Sydney FC has millionaire supporters, but their 2008 average was about 16,000, imagine what would happen in the B-League? Unfortunately in Sydney, we like winners.
However, I’m going to contradict myself and say that there are two things which may help set up a B-League;
1)Massive government funding, if the existing government continues to increase soccer funding which I think it will, then maybe the funds will be available to facilitate a fully professional second tier comp.
2)There is a chance that some of these regional centres may support their sides given they have no other national representation – i.e. Darwin, Tasmania, Sunshine Coast, Wollongong, Alice Springs, Kalgoorlie anywhere else?
I think the best bet is to focus on the top tier. There is a reason why US sports don’t use Promotion and Relegation, and I think our sports market is closer to the US than Europe.
I do welcome any criticism of my understanding, especially of the allure of the regional areas participating.
Michael C said | June 4th 2008 @ 1:48pm | Report comment
Lazza -
a couple of things -
firstly, Sweeney is deceptive – - it doesn’t count regional areas and the ‘interest’ measure for soccer is so much more open to misrepresentation that for example Aust Footy – - in that ALL Aust Footy that garners ‘interest’ IS LOCAL (i.e. contained entirely within the Australian marketplace). Soccer on the other hand, being the global game – - and awful lot of what will satisfy ‘interest’ in the Sweeney report will consist of watching the EPL, or checking out the scores for the UEFA cub in the paper or playing an EPL ‘dream team’ on-line. And, that is far from the sole domain of hardened soccer fans – - – more just ‘followers’, rather than ’supporters’.)
secondly – -oh, drat, I’ve forgotten…..
ah, now I remember,
main thing, for such an ambitious notion as this PandR plan might be – - you’d want to have slightly better demonstrable market share???
The reality, is, to get a truer picture of how soccer sits – - is to ADD the RL and AFL sweeney and even pariticipation figures together. IN a sense, from the sports marketing perspective, the AFL and NRL are like 2 ‘conferences’ (similar to NFL in US). The simple fact that they never come together at the end of each season for a combined finals is of little consequence.
The question in that context is to whether soccer is robust enough (yet? ever?) to attempt a PandR national 2 division ‘league(s)’.
I’d reckon at very least, soccer has a bit more work to do, before thinking such things. And, in reality, I reckon, even just such notions continues to undermine what IS presently in place, I reckon if everyone were just told now, that, within 2 years we’ll have 12 teams via this geographic breakdown – - and, that will be it, that we don’t envisage change within 20 years after that, so, like it or lump it, if you want ‘IN’, then, these represent your access points. For now, there seem many people with their own ambitions, and, I could imagine, that, those who miss out next time ’round will – - like the fluid nature of the structure of the old NSL where teams came and went with regularity, I reckon there’ll be factions effectively working away, nobbling away, just waiting for their chance – - and, talk of a Div 2 and a FFA Cup, I reckon would just add fuel to those flames.
I reckon, you need to bed down the new structure for 20 odd years – - and the main reason is to effectively ‘kill off’ the old school soccer culture. Effectively, force a generation change.
I could be wrong!!!
btw – the author ignores the fact that soccer participation in NSW equates to 52% of males and 52% of females accross the country – - that puts the NSW ’stronghold’ nature of soccer on a par with RU and RL (54% and 57%) and Aust Footy in Vic (50%).
NSw represents 33% of the national population.
I’d suggest that Soccer ACTUALLY DOES have a stronghold – - NSW, Sydney – - alas, like the 2 Rugby codes, they share a common stronghold, and, regionally, thus far, the NSW regional reach of the NRL is being challenged by Soccer – - such a move to a 2 Div comp or FFA Cup structure would be further widespread assault on the supposed NRL heartland.
And, in reality, the FFA has a bit to do yet to prove that it isn’t a little overly NSW centric.
The top 85% of all Soccer participants are in NSW, VIC and QLD. Makes sense, the highest Population base, but, NSW at 52%, vs Vic at 18% and QLD at 15%. That’s a fair dominance by NSW. (given VIc is 25% of national population, and QLD is 20%, so, 45% of the country have 33% of the soccer participants — obviously, the other 22% of the country has 15% of soccer participants).
by comparison – - because, it’s been made :
AFL
50% in Vic, 25 % of popluation.
Maybe 1-2% in NSW, 33% of population.
the other 48% of participants are spread amongst the remaining 42% of the country.
Okay, 11% in QLD which equates to 20% of national population.
SA and WA both very well ‘over represented’, such that, they TOO are strongholds, both running at about the same ratio as Vic, i.e. WA 19% participation vs 9.88% of nat. pop, and SA 14% participation vs 7.6% of nat. pop.
Are 3 strongholds better than 1?
Many people speak of the AFL as missing out on half the population, but, in reality, it’s a 3rd for these purposes. NSW.
The NRL has 2 strongholds. QLD and NSW, and that’s it.
Soccer isn’t quite the nice national spread than some might like to believe. That’s a seductive myth.
Norm said | June 4th 2008 @ 1:53pm | Report comment
“Oh Hallelujah, we will all be converted from our heathen codes to the one true game”
and this from the bloke who is always carping on about genuine debate.
Treizistes said | June 4th 2008 @ 2:03pm | Report comment
Midfielder
Nearly all the clubs lost money last year, there is no guarantee that FTA TV will pay anything for the Soccer, what happens if the sugar daddy dies?
The ratings the soccer get out here are the same as the Toyota U20’s comp in the RL, that’s not very big, if ch 9 did say to soccer, yeah we’ll put you on Saturday nights for a trial, what would happen when they had ratings like the swans do, but instead of just in Sydney, it was nation wide, something like 80-90k in each state?
They wouldn’t keep it for long would they?
Where would the money come from to fund all this then and keep it going?
Traveling across Australia every week costs money, imagine have a second division doing it too and then having to prop up 3rd world nations in the pacific who are poorer than a heap of African countries?
It just doesn’t make sense.
Look, Soccer has done well out here in the last 4 years, but some people are getting carried away, Australia will jump on the Socceroo band wagon all the time, that’s all we have ever done, same with the Wallabies, but below that, not many care, and def not enough to have 40 odd million watching in Australia and the Pacific like you said in another thread because it’s a club comp and most of Australia and the Pac Island are Rugby mad (RU-RL) not soccer.
Lazza said | June 4th 2008 @ 2:13pm | Report comment
The thing that will stop AFL/RL having a 2nd tier comp is simply the scoring system in those sports. It’s the same reason that Rugby and Cricket have found it so difficult to get their 2nd tier nations to be competitive. When you have ‘free’ scoring you might get a lot of action but at the cost of one sided games.
The big boys always win, any FA Cup style competition or P/R is a joke because an AFL side will ALWAYS slaughter a lower league side. No upsets, no contest and no interest. On a good day they win by 20 goals, on a bad day it’s only 10.
In a one off game of Football anything can happen, some say that makes it a ‘fickle’ sport but Football fans around the world would not have it any other way.
Michael C, the only threat to the RL heartland is from the AFL putting teams into their traditional market during the RL season. Football being a summer sport only competes for participants. Football is in competition with Cricket for the summer market and since Cricket is only a ‘representative’ sport at the moment they do not compete directly.
The Substitute said | June 4th 2008 @ 2:37pm | Report comment
Okay, just read all your replies. Just a quick run down of responses:
Paul,
Where you and I differ is that I actually want all codes to prosper, whereas you are keen to see the AFL hang onto its current standing. I would actually like you to point out where in my article I say football (or in your language: soccer) is the superior code. I am suggesting it has positioned itself better than the other codes, I did not say it was better.
Redb,
That sentence was to point out that the other codes are quite limited in their expansion prospects in that they can really only go after untapped markets that are actually big enough to sustain a team. Football has the opportunity now to go after any market in this country they want.
Michael C,
Travel issues are of course a key concern. Without lookiong to much into it all I can say is look at the NBL. They have teams in Singapore, Cairns, Perth and New Zealand, etc. That league is falling over financially, yet they can afford to fly to Singapore? I think it has something to do with their Virgin Blue sponsorship, so perhaps the FFA could work out a deal with Qantas is my initial thoughts.
Towser,
One thing I should have stressed in the article a bit more is the timeframe. If we believe Lowy, P&R will come into effect before we host the World Cup. Before last week we were all led to believe that was in 2018, now it is more likely to be 2022. We will have at least 10 years to implement this (possibly more, if ou look at how long the US federation to set up the MLS following on from USA ‘94) so there isn’t a need to rush it.
Treizistes,
That money doesn’t seem as though it is going to run out any time soon. The next broadcast deal is supposedly going to be on par with the size of rugby leagues, and free-to-air networks will be involved. There has in the past been talk of an all-football network on Foxtel.
Millster said | June 4th 2008 @ 2:41pm | Report comment
RedB – just popping back in here after a meeting so a comment that goes back quite some posts. Yes A-League has franchises and a salary-cap but if you recall the entire body of my posts on this site this year I am vehemently against the latter in particular and see it as a short-term necessary evil to be eradicated as soon as possible.
I do not like anything that manipulates future results or causes a centralised “evening out” of a competition. To me they are the sign of a code that has to manufacture its excitement artificially – that knows it is vulnerable so has to ensure that all clubs and their fans can share some success whether merited or not. Preferential draft picks and salary caps are the worst in this respect. Philosophical I know, but I believe very strongly that the end game of this is mediocrity of the many, at the expense of excellence of the few.
Translated into practise, I’d prefer to have 2 or 3 clubs dominate the A-League if those clubs can go on to represent Australia well at international level, rather than to have hotly contested domestic premierships that change hands each year but between clubs that are found out to be crap when compared to the rest of the world.
Lazza said | June 4th 2008 @ 2:45pm | Report comment
Treizistes,
The next TV deal for Football is, according to a lot of media reports, going to be on a par with the NRL with some journalists suggesting it may even rival the AFL’s contract. The Socceroos are the main attraction with our move into Asia there is 4 year cycle of quality, competitive games which generate a lot of interest and huge TV Ratings.
The A League ratings are on a par with Super 14 and the biggest ever for Pay TV are Socceroos games. The FTA networks took a ‘wait and see’ approach to ‘new soccer’ but Channel 10 have already declared their interest in televising the A League. With all this extra money the quality will improve further and so will interest.
The only thing that might slow progress is if we get a Twenty20 competition in Cricket involving the best players in the world. That would make the summer market more competitive but still big enough for both sports to thrive. Cricket can only really do that if it abandons Test Cricket, not an easy choice.
Michael C said | June 4th 2008 @ 2:46pm | Report comment
Lazza -
soccer as a summer sport – -
that’s a bit of a watered down version isn’t it?
When do all the grass roots leagues play? Winter. ONly the HAL is a summer sport. So – - at the TV coverage perspective and elite level ground usage level – - correct – - not a direct overlap.
However, at the grass roots, kids playing sport level – - the growth in popularity of soccer in the NSW stronghold and the regional markets is in direct competition with NRL – - for square grounds, for participants.
And, any 2nd div comp would be tugging at the local regional purse strings currently supporting NRL and local RL.
Aust Footy – - doesn’t have that same local impact – - necessarily. Because of the centralised nature of funding and player market.
Soccer at a local level would be heavily reliant upon local funding and cost efficient local talent pathways. This notion of a 2nd tier or FFA Cup would put greater emphasis at that level.
That’s what I mean.
Granted – - the 2nd Div would have to move to summer, but, in all likelihood we’d see these as effectively local Rep teams that will be drawn mostly from the local winter competition with – if like the basketball, – the odd relatively cheap ‘import’.
This would actually provide that year round soccer focus that one Craig Foster would be so delighted to see.
And, because ARU and NRL share the same NSW stronghold – - they are the codes most at risk.
Michael C said | June 4th 2008 @ 3:04pm | Report comment
Millster -
interesting view on ‘equalisation’ policies.
Vulnerable.
All clubs are vulnerable,
These policies were brought in to effectively regulate to the clubs so as to avoid a single administration bringing down a club with over 100 years of history. As was happening. It’s more a sign of not trusting club administrators. Not entirely a bad thing!!!
Artificial excitement???
From a follower of soccer where fans jump and sing and chant totally unrelated to what’s happening on the pitch – - now, that’s artificial. (well, in my eyes it is).
There’s plenty of excitement – - but, hasn’t equalisation done wonders for allowing fans to retain a sense of realistic ‘hope’, rather than just airy dreams. The club memberships and attendances proove that even Carlton fans – - retain a sense of hope despite what they effectively self-inflicted by cheating the system.
In the case of the AFL – - it was more a vote of confidence in the tradition of the existing clubs (perhaps a Vic centric thing – - and I don’t mind this being watered down). But – - effectively more a recognition that the strength of the whole is derived from the strength of the component clubs.
But – - vulnerable – -certainly, in the AFL sense, you can’t afford to take anything for granted.
In the soccer sense, on a global scale – -what’s one more or less club, or player — you can afford to be a little more blasé.
Lazza –
tv deal -
I still reckon that most estimates are based on a combined Socceroos/HAL package. I still speculate that for FTA value, the Socceroos are the only beacon for now. And, if anti syphoning includes the Socceroos, then, it’s be an FTA fight only for the Socceroos. And, effectively, Pay TV will be able to name it’s own price for the HAL.
The simple fact is that Super 14s offer zero FTA value, and most of the value in the Super14s is the other 2 members of SANZAR. NZ doesn’t offer the same value to the HAL as does NZ to the SANZAR triumvirate.
The Substitute -
NBL – - well, can they REALLY afford to fly to singapore? If they dropped Singapore then maybe the Kings and Bullets might not be on deaths door.
Midfielder said | June 4th 2008 @ 3:25pm | Report comment
Treizistes & Others
Treizistes made the logic point that “there is no guarantee that FTA TV will pay anything” and he (assume you are a guy) right.
But the point everyone is missing is no one even Obie One is claiming it will be running anytime soon. …….. BUT ……… a plan of how to build a P & R and then all can work towards the plan and move forward.
IOM very clever, its setting up a process that is for all to see, in the meantime gets the final ticks from the ACL to be able to run the Asian Cup and meet the requirements for more ACL club places.
JimC said | June 4th 2008 @ 3:26pm | Report comment
“The next TV deal for Football is, according to a lot of media reports, going to be on a par with the NRL with some journalists suggesting it may even rival the AFL’s contract.”
“The A League ratings are on a par with Super 14.”
Can someone explain the logic here. These two statements would seem to be inconsistent. Surely S14 level ratings would imply a pretty small TV deal.
Michael C said | June 4th 2008 @ 3:46pm | Report comment
Midfielder -
time frames then.
This article uses
“about to”
and then
“put other codes to shame”
IN reality, this is all pipedream stuff – - really,
isn’t it,
and, in reality,
the A-League is still quite some way off putting the other codes to shame (me thinx the other codes do a fine enough job of it themselves – - such is the nature of the beast).
and, really, there’s an awful lot of soccer carts sitting infront of bemused horses around town……
The Substitute said | June 4th 2008 @ 4:08pm | Report comment
Michael C,
P&R is a long way off, I’ll admit that. But I was meerly pointing out the facts:
1. P&R would enable football to go deeper into the Australian market than any other code.
2. Cities/regions previously aligned with a rugby code or AFL but without a team (Tasmania, Sunshine Coast, etc.) could easily turn to football, just like the Central Coast.
3. It is hard to see P&R (or even a radical overhaul of second tier comps) happening with any of the other codes in the next ten years, football’s P&R timeframe, if ever.
Towser said | June 4th 2008 @ 4:12pm | Report comment
JimC
By way of explanation.
The TV deal includes the Socceroos.
At this stage the A-League is a bit player.
The Socceroos topped the Pay TV ratings last year because of the Asian Cup telecast.
However, viewers use pay TV in a quite different way from the way they use free to air, as demonstrated by its most-watched programs this year:
1. Soccer: AFC Asian Cup, Australia v Japan, FoxSports2 (419,000);
2. Cricket: Chappell-Hadlee Trophy, Aus v NZ, FoxSports2 (415,000);
3. Parkinson: Shane Warne interview, UKTV (405,000);
4. Soccer: Asian Cup, Aus v Oman, FoxSports2 (345,000);
5. NRL: Roosters v Rabbitohs, FoxSports1 (332,000);
6. AFL: Essendon v Richmond, FoxSports2 (328,000);
7. NRL: Dragons v Rabbitohs FoxSports3 (323,000);
8. NRL: Sea Eagles v Storm FoxSports3 (317,000);
9. Movie: High School Musical 2 Disney Channel (314,000);
10. NRL Cowboys v Storm FoxSports3 (311,000).
Dont have the ratings for this year but I should imagine they are similar.
The increased TV deal will be because of the Socceroos receiving consistently high ratings on Fox.
Lazza said | June 4th 2008 @ 4:21pm | Report comment
JimC,
Super 14 ratings are by no means minor for Pay TV, just not at NRL/AFL level.
Why are there 10 franchises bidding to join the A League? Why are Channel 10 interested in showing the A League?
It’s a growing sport and the FTA networks can see the potential finally. When it goes on FTA it will open up the other 75% of the market. Now explain to me why Cricket is a minor sport since obviously only the National side gets any interest?
Lazza said | June 4th 2008 @ 4:40pm | Report comment
Michael C,
If you really believe that AFL and NRL are not in a turf war then read todays SMH :
“Asking us to change is akin to [Melbourne Storm chief executive] Brian Waldron asking Collingwood to change their kick-off time at the MCG. They overestimate their power in this market.”
Searle said the AFL also scheduled a Lions-Collingwood match in Brisbane in March against a Broncos-Cowboys game, causing disruption in the city, but they were subsequently embarrassed by the TV ratings.
Football is just a smokescreen for the AFL’s real intentions.
Yes, I’ve never denied the Socceroos and HAL are one package, that’s what makes it such a tempting option for the FTA channels.
The Substitute said | June 4th 2008 @ 4:48pm | Report comment
Lazza,
A bit off topic but in that same article Searle pointed out something I found ridiculous.
“Our draw was out first. The AFL scheduled two of North Melbourne’s three matches up here when we are playing at home. If they were so desperate to avoid us, they could have scheduled to play the June 28 match when we were away.”
Both times this issue has surfaced in the last week, the AFL has been painted in a pretty poor light. But what Searle has just suggested is that the NRL scheduled their game first. When in fact the AFL were the first to schedule on the Saturday night. The NRL’s flexible schedule meant the Titans were going to play that weekend but not necessarily on the Saturday night.
The article also referenced the Lions-Magpies game and how it went up against the Broncos-Cowboys game.
On BOTH these occassions the NRL had the opportunity to schedule AROUND the AFL, but IT decided to go head-to-head. Its pretty pathetic that they are throwing all the blame at the AFL on this issue.
(See Paul, I still stick up for the AFL occasionally!)
Michael C said | June 4th 2008 @ 4:52pm | Report comment
Lazza -
Super 14 are insignificant for Australia -
the greastest value on Super 14s in for Sth Af and NZ. Australia is in many respects the poor relation.
Channel 10 quite possibly smells a bargain, worth a gamble.
Or – - smells the Socceroos.
If the Socceroos are anti syphoned – as apparently promised – then the Socceroos AND HAL will no longer be a single ‘tempting package’,
will Ch.10 seek the HAL. PErhaps. Will any game any week actually go national? Possibly not – -many NRL followers fail to consider in comparing ratings that the AFL matches each week are divided up around the states, with very, very rarely a single game going entirely national. Most often Ch.7 and Fox are showing live or near live totally different matches into the various states. The HAL begs for that – - and, Ch. 10 has the production crews from the winter AFL needing something to do over summer – - perhaps the best friend of the HAL is a network that carries AFL but DOES NOT carry the cricket!!
If only Pay is interested in the HAL – - the main question either way is what contractual allowances are there for expansion, i.e. more money if an extra game or 2 are provided per week????
The $120m contract for 7 years – - MUST have some provision for expansion – - as, the 7 year timeframe exceeds the 5 year moritorium on 2nd teams in capital city markets – - so, there must be a provision for that probably budgeted 2 year window in which expansion may occur. That, either means the $120m is taking this potentially into consideration at that price, or, that there’s an option for Fox to pay a portion extra to tie up any extra matches due expansion.
Does anyone have any idea?
btw -
why 10 franchises bidding? It’s still relatively cheap, and, like any potential pyramid scheme, you gotta get in early or forever hold your peace.
Lazza -
re the SMH article and the supposed turf war -
the reality here is that it’s only very recently, (over the last few weeks) that the GAA and AFL have agreed to definitely hold a 2 test series later this year. The AFL I gather initially only wanted 1 match – apparently MCG Oct 31. It’s an issue that time of year as most venues are getting cricket pitches happening.
The GAA were very keen on 2 matches – - to make it worth their while coming over.
The AFL have had to sound out possible venues – -
now – - let me mention that Int Rules matches ARE CERTAINLY NOT AFL matches. And, the greatest carnival atmosphere in Melbourne in recent years was in 2003 when the Friday before Melb Cup, Aust v Ireland – int rules, 60K at the MCG, SAt I think at TD, Aust v Ireland RUWC, 55K, and then Irish runners at Flemington on Cup day………just a brilliant atmosphere – - that, I’m really not sure served to promote the AFL – - ‘cos, they weren’t playing AFL, and, it really just focussed attention that Aust WERE playing Ireland in the Rugger!!!!
Brilliant atmosphere, and just a whole lot of fun, ‘cos the International Rules isn’t anything to get all serious about……
….and then you see this anti AFL tirade from the soccer friendly SMH (trying to stir the pot a bit more).
Talk about close shop Sydney and anti AFL.
So – - the AFL enquiring about availability of the SCG is a problem for what reason????
Don’t forget, the NRL are the people who schedule matches 6 weeks out. The AFL regular season fixture is in stone from October the year before. Be careful about blaming the AFL for any ‘fixture’ clashes.
The AFL gives everyone plenty of time to take advantage of gaps – - and, thus, MVFC were happily able to play Juventus on Friday at TD, and, the AFL have no issue about remarking the ground for a match the next day.
Michael C said | June 4th 2008 @ 4:56pm | Report comment
Thanks Subbie,
that’s the anti AFL Sydney centric media at work busily trying to paint the AFL as the bad guys.
It’s I nice hatchet job being conducted.
Midfielder said | June 4th 2008 @ 5:03pm | Report comment
MC
Pipe dream is to harsh …………. more long term plan …………… even more key indicators for action.
But will not happen for a long time yet, …………….BUT THE FACT …………… it is there, will be and is very important.
Lazza said | June 4th 2008 @ 5:32pm | Report comment
International Rules is a nice ‘carnival’ and good way to reward the best players from both sports but it’s hardly a serious sport?
The way it’s going it will probably be a Gaelic Football match soon. The Irish don’t understand the concept of ‘controlled aggression’, a lot of AFL players don’t either. To them you either play Football or it’s Boxing. Make up your mind!
I can understand why the Sydney media are a bit defensive. The AFL are putting teams in the RL heartland during the RL season, FFA are keeping away from the crowded winter market. Basically the only way the AFL can become a truly national sport is by ‘knocking out’ RL? Let the wars begin!
Stops people whinging about Football for a while!
Koala Bear said | June 4th 2008 @ 5:40pm | Report comment
Michael C,
oh come on Larrrd, let’s not get defensive here.. have a read of this article from my mate Roy Masters.. 
Myth Buster…
Sydney “Anti AFL centric”
http://www.leaguehq.com.au/news/news/roy-masters/2008/06/03/1212258825627.html
~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | June 4th 2008 @ 5:52pm | Report comment
Michael C.. Sydney anti Marn Grook; I won’t stand for that.. !!!
Nice piece written by Roy Masters, (Myth Buster)
AN AFL approach to stage an Australia-Ireland international rules match at the Sydney Cricket Ground in competition with the opening ceremony of rugby league’s centenary World Cup has escalated the scheduling conflict between the nation’s two major football codes and threatens to erupt into an all-out turf war.
AFL boss Andrew Demetriou pressured the SCG Trust to host the hybrid rules match one or two days before the October 26 World Cup opening ceremony and an Australia-New Zealand match at the adjacent Sydney Football Stadium. Confirming the approach, SCG Trust general manager Jamie Barclay said: “Demetriou wanted to play the international rules match at the SCG on either the Friday or the Saturday before the Sunday World Cup opening ceremony and opening match, but we already had signed a contract with the Rugby League International Federation to stage their events. On that basis, we were unable to do it.”
The AFL then approached ANZ Stadium, Homebush Bay, but support from NSW Major Events evaporated and the match was relocated to Subiaco Oval, Perth. While the NSW Government is a financial backer of the World Cup, the alternative plan to play at Homebush Bay was also scuttled because of the potential embarrassment of a poor crowd in Sydney’s west.
ARL chairman Colin Love, who is also the World Cup tournament director, said: “I would have been extremely disappointed if the Trust had not rejected the application and I would be extremely disappointed if it was the aim of the AFL to rain on our parade.
“After all, it is the centenary of rugby league in Australia and we are staging an opening ceremony and a major match involving our trans-Tasman rivals.”
The AFL denies the scheduling was designed to frustrate rugby league. “We see ourselves as a different event,” a spokesman said, pointing out Australian football is celebrating its 150-year anniversary and that Australia-Ireland international rules games began in 1998. “We were keen to play in Sydney because the GAA [Gaelic Athletic Association] say there is a strong call to play there. We made the inquiry to play at the SCG and were told it was not available. ANZ was very keen to host the event but we could not get funding support from NSW Major Events.”
Rugby league and AFL will go head-to-head on the Gold Coast on Saturday June 28 when the Titans play the Dragons at 5.30pm at Skilled Park, while North Melbourne host St Kilda at Cararra at 7.10pm.
NRL chief operating officer Graham Annesley claims an approach was made from Fox Sports, which telecasts both codes, to change the Titans match to the following day to accommodate the AFL.
A defiant Annesley said: “Demetriou says no approach was made from the AFL to Fox Sports but I’ve got no doubt a call was made. That call to Fox Sports certainly led to a call to us from Fox Sports asking us to change the time of the match. But the Titans prefer Saturday night, rather than Sunday matches, and we refused to change.”
While the AFL is incensed at Annesley for branding the code a minor league, the NRL deputy insists he was referring to its presence in frontier territory.
“They are No.2 in the areas of south-east Queensland and western Sydney, where the full-on assault is, the areas where they are attacking rugby league,” Annesley said.
Titans managing director Michael Searle accused the AFL of “running interference”, saying: “Our draw was out first. The AFL scheduled two of North Melbourne’s three matches up here when we are playing at home. If they were so desperate to avoid us, they could have scheduled to play the June 28 match when we were away.
“Asking us to change is akin to [Melbourne Storm chief executive] Brian Waldron asking Collingwood to change their kick-off time at the MCG. They overestimate their power in this market.”
Searle said the AFL also scheduled a Lions-Collingwood match in Brisbane in March against a Broncos-Cowboys game, causing disruption in the city, but they were subsequently embarrassed by the TV ratings.
Coinciding with the scheduling battle is a mooted plan for the AFL to buy ANZ Stadium as a home for its second Sydney team, also allowing it to be landlord to five NRL clubs. However, sources suggest this is a smokescreen for the AFL’s main intention – using the adjacent Showground as a training base and administrative centre for a second Sydney team.
The Showground, formerly home of the NRL’s Bulldogs and under lease to the Royal Agricultural Society, would need an investment of $80 million-$90 million to increase its capacity to 25,000 seats, much less than the $200 million reported to be the price of ANZ Stadium….
Marn Grook Stadium
~~~~~~~
KB
Darcy said | June 4th 2008 @ 6:51pm | Report comment
It’s impressive how quickly the A league has grown in a couple of years but from the point of view of a visiting European who has seen his share of top calibre Premiership, serie A and la liga soccer it is mere fourth division fare.
On a recent visit to Brisbane I caught the Roar v Sydney at suncorp. The standard was abysmal. I’m not sure about it leaving the other codes in the shade. At least the AFL, Rugby and Rugby League are cutting edge at what they do. The soccer is probably 15 to 20 years away from getting within a sniff of good European / South American standard.
Midfielder said | June 4th 2008 @ 7:29pm | Report comment
Darcy
Tis true what you say but fourth division is a tad harsh, …………. one of the major problems we have in establishing football as a code is the pressure from the EPL, serie A and la liga. How would you rate Motherwell against these leagues as well?
But back to your point, FFA have never said we will ever come close to these leagues, but this is the best we can afford in Australian at this stage.
Come look agian in 10 years and the standard will have lifted a lot.
But hope you can come before then as we are aware of the football fan not coming because it is not Champions League Standard and we need all the help we can get. The plans FFA have are ambitious and there is little money to work with.
The trick will be holding it all together over the next 5 years, but simply:- create a 12 team comp, supoort 9 national teams, qualify for WC & AC in both mens and womens, qualifty for Olympics, qualify for Asian cup, do reasonable well in the Asian Champions League.
All this from a position of little media, small budgets, up agianst established rival codes with heaps of tradition and heaps of media support, and mega times more dollars to work with. So Darcy you can see we understand the issues, ……….. but we also need understanding and support from football people like yourself.
What is being put in place is a process / a road map if you like on how to move forward. P & R is seen as important and a process is being developed so we will know what the parramators are.
In closing just before Christmass last year I went to a Central Coast Mariners & Sydney FC match. The final score was 5 -4 to Sydney, but mate the game had everything including poor defence but a couple of pommies on holiday who sat behind us said it was one of the best games they had ever seen, not for the skill but for the drama of the match. Thats what the A-League can bring.
Hope you come to more games ……….. and enjoy the drama ……….. don’t go looking for Europe ……….. well not yet anyway.
Joe FC said | June 4th 2008 @ 8:13pm | Report comment
Well said Midfielder. Aust football fans are under no illusions about where we’re at & where we want to be – a long way still to go & a lot of work still to do.
Dave said | June 4th 2008 @ 8:54pm | Report comment
Midfielder
Yeah remember that CC v SFC game…it was almost as good as the CC v Melb Victory game a few weeks later
Just remembering the score now…was it one…nooo…was it two..nooo etc etc until you get to…FIVE 
Redb said | June 4th 2008 @ 9:11pm | Report comment
Lazza,
“Asking us to change is akin to [Melbourne Storm chief executive] Brian Waldron asking Collingwood to change their kick-off time at the MCG. They overestimate their power in this market.”
If the Gold Coast Titans considers themselves the Collingwood of NRL then they are the ones who overestmate their market power.
Roy Masters the master of rugby league spin.
if its a AFl v NRl war its very much one side picking a fight (NRL), the AFl in Melborne dont rate the Melb Storm as a threat, it seems the NRL are very worried – war councils, journalistic jingoism, editorial eddifications…
I’m waiting for Andrew Demetriou to be burned in effagy at Kogarah.
Redb
Paul said | June 4th 2008 @ 10:50pm | Report comment
I’m going to conduct an independent survey in various capital cities and regional areas of Australia, when I visit them in the next year, and ask various questions about the popularity of football codes. When I am finished I will publish my results.
Then either:
a) I will eat humble pie and admit that soccer is the best and most popular game
or
b) you soccerphiles will have to stop spinning your over inflated, trumped up, hyped up propaganda about how your game is taking over the Australia.
Midfielder said | June 4th 2008 @ 11:04pm | Report comment
Paul
From my post and then Joe Fc
“The trick will be holding it all together over the next 5 years, but simply:- create a 12 team comp, supoort 9 national teams, qualify for WC & AC in both mens and womens, qualifty for Olympics, qualify for Asian cup, do reasonable well in the Asian Champions League.
All this from a position of little media, small budgets, up agianst established rival codes with heaps of tradition and heaps of media support, and mega times more dollars to work with. So Darcy you can see we understand the issues, ……….. but we also need understanding and support from football people like yourself.”
From Joe FC
“Well said Midfielder. Aust football fans are under no illusions about where we’re at & where we want to be – a long way still to go & a lot of work still to do.”
These statements do not reflect your last post.
Michael C said | June 5th 2008 @ 8:40am | Report comment
Midfielder -
you said
“one of the major problems we have in establishing football as a code is the pressure from the EPL, serie A and la liga.”
Too true – - I’ve been saying this for ages too – - and, do you know what – - the efforts at establishing soccer as a mainstream code in this country ARE NOT 3 years old – - as some people seem to want to believe in their revisionist history.
Koala Bear -
the simple fact that you are figuring the possibility of a International Rules match 1 or 2 days BEFORE the RL kicks off – - to be competition?!??!?!?!?
How warped is that???
As I indicated, the MVFC v Juventus match last Friday was on a footy free night in Melbourne – - was that game in competition with the AFL fixtures on Saturday and Sunday in Melbourne??? Hardly.
Who would imagine that anyone choosing to attend the RL WC opening ceremony might opt instead to go to the AFL/GAA IR hybrid rules match a couple of days early.
GET A GRIP!!!!!!
What, are there only about 50,000 attendees of anything in Australias largest city????
Please – - tell me just what exactly Mr.Masters is getting at? He still struggles that he had 100 years lead in that the AFL would continue the 1908 (50 yr jubilee) and 1958 (100yr jubilee) time line – - whilst telling us that 2008 is the centenary season of RL in Australia when in fact it’s the 101st season and the birthday of founding was in 2007.
Roy Masters is the biggest pot stirrer – - and, by virtue that he’s about the only source you can quote, KB, it doesn’t say much for your argument.
Lazza -
“Stops people whinging about Football for a while!”
!?!?!?!
It’s ALL FOOTBALL,….., MATE!
Towser said | June 5th 2008 @ 8:53am | Report comment
Darcy
I”m sure I,ve seen your post somewhere before?
The visiting European who can assess the Australian sporting scene immediately.
It took me a good 10 years to work out what the Fark was going on in Australia, another 10 to adjust & the rest of the time I’ve been settling in.
How are you anyway Lord Melbury “Alright me old mucker”
I was at the abysmal Roar v Sydney game.
I like to think after a lifetime of following football that I have some knowledge of abysmal football matches.
The Chelsea ManU FA cup final last year fits into that category.
This was not one of them nor was the standard abysmal. Reinaldos goal cutting in from the left at an acute angle was as good as you’ll see anywhere & so was Ognenovskis thunderous penalty.
As for the phrase “Cutting edge”
“The phrase cutting edge refers to the sharp side of a metal object, and, by extension, state-of-the-art developments in a field.”
I would think you can only be cutting edge or judge anything to be cutting edge if you have something to compare with otherwise I could cut a flower from the garden stick it up my nostril & say ‘This is cutting edge”.
Unless I could go out into the world and find other nutters with flowers up their nostril how would I know if it was cutting edge or not?
Lord Melbury please take your bricks out of the safe.
Norm said | June 5th 2008 @ 9:24am | Report comment
” you soccerphiles will have to stop spinning your over inflated, trumped up, hyped up propaganda about how your game is taking over the Australia” …….more of your genuine debate Paul?
Slippery Jim said | June 5th 2008 @ 9:57am | Report comment
Midfielder, the standard of the A-League will never lift to the level of the three Euro leagues you mention due to the fact that we have a salary cap, and will never be able to pay $100,000+ a week salary’s top EPL stars are payed. Therefore, the top talent will always play in the more lucrative leagues. I never expect us to rise above the standard of the English championship, but then again, I do not need to watch this standard of play to be satisfied with our local league. The national team, however is a different kettle of fish and can rightly aspire to being up there with the best in the world.
Koala Bear said | June 5th 2008 @ 9:58am | Report comment
Norm,
Yes Norm, I know you don’t want to upset your selfish hold on the Auxiliary. Especially now you cut me out of the picture.. 
Does it seem to you that comrade Paul has an overload of testosterone and sperm count and needs to off load it due to the cold Siberian winters ..?. I am sure the gals from the CRSL Auxiliary will only be too happy to help him out with his overload..
~~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | June 5th 2008 @ 10:19am | Report comment
Slippery Jim,
I was just wondering if you watched on SBS 11:00 am Sunday an hour doco on the Chelsea FC ..? I loved it; it took me back a bit in time to the old Stamford Bridge Stadium.. the good old days with King Ozzie …
PS: there are two Man U supporters here, so be careful… “Midfielder and Dave” are two notoriously evil fans with no knowledge of what is inspiring cutting edge football to behold..
~~~~~~~
KB
Norm said | June 5th 2008 @ 10:21am | Report comment
KB
I’m glad you brought up the subject of the good ladies from CRSL Auxiliary, I’ve been meaning to talk to you about it. During my recent bout of “unwellness” I had time to reflect on my extracurricular activities. You will recall my appointments with Pope Benedict, Prince Charles & Nelson Mandella. They warned me about the consequences of loose living. Wayne of course said phooey to all that & I so wanted to believe him. But KB he was wrong & they were right. So I’ve taken the vow. No more breaking the 10 Commandments for this boy. When I told the good ladies from CRSL Auxiliary that I was putting my cue back in the rack they were of couse disappointed but understanding. They simply swooned when I mentioned your name – something about if Jeff Fenech can come back than so can KB. So champ its over to you……unless you want to pass the baton to Paul?????
Towser said | June 5th 2008 @ 10:25am | Report comment
Slippery Jim
Spot on lad.
Towser said | June 5th 2008 @ 10:33am | Report comment
KB
There is also a Sheffield Wednesday fan on here who remembers when Chelsea wern’t fit to polish Wednesdays boots for our Senior players.
Remember though seeing Peter Osgood in Australia. There was a clip on whatever preceeded The 7.30 Report on the ABC(Bill Peach host?) with Peter pounding a goal with some uncanny shots, passed the bemused looking Tony Mundine son of Anthony(no prizes for who I preferred as a man with humility).
Perhaps you could jog my memory as sometimes football matches blur a little over the years.
Koala Bear said | June 5th 2008 @ 10:34am | Report comment
Comrade C wrote: It’s ALL FOOTBALL,….., MATE!
Well I would not go as far to say that anymore; it seems to me now we have a bit of clarity here … We now have :
Marn Grook; (AFTL)
Rugby League;
Football;
and Rugby Union…..
Oh I almost forgot “The Australian National Football Team” (the Footballroos)
~~~~~~~~
KB
Spiro Zavos said | June 5th 2008 @ 10:41am | Report comment
The promotion/relegation system is merely an end to a means. It is not an end in itself. Some sports competitions benefit from a promotion/relegation system, other competition’s don’t. The English rugby clubs, for instance, believe that the promotion/relegation system induces teams to play ultra-safety first tactics, playing not to lose rather than playing to win. And it would be a nonsense in a tournament like the Super 14 where there are fixed franchises etc
Where it works is those nations where one sport, football essentially, is so dominant that there are more clubs with large contingents of supporters than places in the top level of the competition. In this case promotion/relegation is the only and best way of keeping the competition alive to new clubs.
I would doubt every much if Australian football has the resources in cash, teams and support to have excess clubs trying to be in the A-League.
There is no doubt, though, that the promotion/relegation system ensures that there is an intense interest in what happens at the top and bottom levels right through to the end.
Koala Bear said | June 5th 2008 @ 10:44am | Report comment
Towser
I have to duck out now; but I will be back to tell you a bit more of my experiences when I rented for a short while in Chelsea back in 1972…
~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | June 5th 2008 @ 11:08am | Report comment
KB -
you are persistant if nothing else…….
so, have you moved on from AFTL – — – given that you keep ignoring my advice that the actual lyric of that ditty is ‘ding’, rather than ‘thing’ or even the Irish varient of ‘ting’.
Such that your oft trotted out ‘AFTL’ ought really be ‘AFDL’
but – of course, it breaks down as no one plays ‘AFBL’ which would be ‘Australian Foot Ball League’.
And, of course you’ve never claim to be speaking on behalf of the FBFA ‘Foot Ball Federation of Australia’,
so – - you’re entirely inconsistant.
That said – - why are you harping on about ‘Marn Grook’ so much?
(heck, I’ll be half serious here)
How many people have you seen/heard present factual based unconditional assertions that the game of Aust Footy is entirely or more than coincidentally associated to Marn Grook? As pointed out, the Martin Flanagan book was a ‘novel’.
Now – the fact that a synergy has been identified and the game known to many as AFL is used to help celebrate indigenous culture, history, heritage – - – - that should hardly be a problem, the more focus that this community has to present itself to the broader demographic, the better – - surely?
Towser said | June 5th 2008 @ 11:48am | Report comment
Spiro
“Where it works is those nations where one sport, football essentially, is so dominant that there are more clubs with large contingents of supporters than places in the top level of the competition. In this case promotion/relegation is the only and best way of keeping the competition alive to new clubs.”
This is why I advocated a second division where teams come from an area big enough population wise to be a First division team. There are growing areas in Australia-Gold Coast Sunshine coast in QLD for instance. Also why I stated that because of this the second division club would be little different to a first division club in football playing standard. Therefore when promoted to the higher division a club can compete immediately unlike for instance championship teams in England going up into the EPL. We dont want here demoted teams being regarded as inferior to the clubs in the first division. We dont have the luxury of historical generational support to sustain non performing clubs.
The Central Coast that I keep harping on about for good reason are a club that upon instigation of the A-League should have been a second division club. But they were in reality a first division club in terms of playing standard ,coaching & administration. They started of as a second division club in terms of crowds with 4& 5000 the norm & built up to a first division club in terms of performance on & off the field & crowds.
“would doubt every much if Australian football has the resources in cash, teams and support to have excess clubs trying to be in the A-League.”
We definitely at this stage dont have the cash.
If we dont get it no second division full stop .It will fail.
But what has happened in India with the IPL gives me hope that the AFC can(and they should as P& R is part of their ratings system for club competitions) find in a population base of over 3 billion enough cash to help countries implement A P&R system. We can only do so much here via TV deals sponsorship etc ,but the AFC needs to find a deep pocket or several deep pockets to fund P&R development.
I have already in an earlier post shown areas in Australia & the region that have a population base large enough to sustain a first division club starting off in a second division.
Essentially i dont agree with anybody on this subject who says that a P& R system is not doable in football in
Australia, particularly now that football in Australia is not really an Australian sport in the sense that we control our own destiny over how we proceed to grow the game.
A way will be found to suit Australia but it must involve teams from areas capable of supporting a first division club or it will fail.
The FFA are no mugs in this respect. At the beginning of the A-League maybe,Perth Glory being a prime example, but we’ve seen with recent new club submissions that unless the club is up to scratch financially and in other areas it wont be admitted to the A-League. THe GC Galaxy & Northern Thunder being casualties of this. In the case of the Gold coast in comes QLD’s richest man. Say we had a second division already, one the club is in a growing area with sufficient population
to develop into a first division club & two it has the back up capital to take the club through any hard times.
THe FFA just keeps demanding this standard for each new club over a period of years.
Its not rocket science(I’m no Rhodes scholar). You obtain the cash from whatever source. You target areas with the required set of criteria demanded by the FFA, the main one being that this club is capable of sustaining a first division standard team in all aspects. You dont admit teams until you find ones that meet the criteria.
Lets face it nothing is ever acheived by contemplating ones navel.
Any change involves a gamble. If that wasn’t the case this country wouldn’t exist, even going back to the indigenous population as they crossed the land bridges into Australia & all the migrants who arrived here after the first fleet.
Lazza said | June 5th 2008 @ 12:52pm | Report comment
Australiam Football clubs on budgets of only 5m can compete with the big boys in Asia who turn over 60-70m per season?
Adelaide Utd have become the first Australian club to advance to the QF stage of the Champions League.
In Football, small clubs can at least compete which makes P/R, an FA Cup etc viable. How many other sports could you have such a disparity in finances and still have competition?
Regional areas in Australia will discover what regional areas in other parts of the world have always known. It’s better to have a team in a national comp, even in a lower league, than no team at all. If your team is well managed or you can attract some financial backing then anything is possible.
Rosco said | June 5th 2008 @ 3:19pm | Report comment
Good article sub.
I believe P & R will work after the league has expanded to 12 teams and established itself.
This will be aided by:
- a new and improved TV deal (will only get better and we can use the rights payments similar to EPL to assist promoted clubs)
- qualification for the 2010 world cup and beyond.
- success in the next Asian cup and beyond
- youth league working well
- salary cap rising to levels above all other codes. (high profile aussies will return sooner)
- higher quality imports as a consequence of better wages
- Gov support (they will want to assist as getting the biggest event in the world here would be great PR for them)
- AFC support (in their best interest commercially to assist and ensure the A-league becomes one of its top leagues)
The carrot that is the 2022 world cup will be too hard to resist from all who truelly understand the enormous reach that football has globally and how this can assist Australia as a whole as well as provide the commercial success to those smart business people that get on board now. (1 aussie billionare onboard already…can’t wait for a few more to wake up and make this a nice little trend..)
We should use the 2022 w/c as our timeline and make it happen.
As far as aussies not supporting an AL2 due to it being inferior, what about the classic Aussies tradition of supporting the underdog, the battler that won promotion from nowhere and made it all the way to the top. We don’t support crap with a ceiling, but give teams a chance to make it to the riches of the top and you have a formula that works.
Looking forward to the intence relegation/promotion battles. No more probs with games of no intrest or playing for draft picks as in the AFL at the momment.
jimbo said | June 5th 2008 @ 4:23pm | Report comment
The Substitute,
Great idea for a promotion and relegation system and you only need to look at the situation in Europe and South America to see the benefits for the football economy.
Bottom of the table matches at the end of the season sold out, promotion and relegation playoffs selling out and a lovely televised final at Wembley.
The promotion prize leading to greater riches in a more popular and profitable higher league.
Compare that to the small crowds and lack of interest towards the end of last season for the bottom A-League teams.
Obviously the A-League would love it, but is it going to work successfully in Australia?
We’d all like to see it but there’s a few issues that need to be sorted out first.
a. Lack of depth of talent. Already mentioned that we have a mass exodus of our best 200-300 players overseas already and not the financial clout to attract players of similar quality over here.
b. Long distances between teams in a large continent. Not only a cost/benefits barrier but also logistical nightmare to get teams, media etc to travel and cover the games.
c. The best teams in each state don’t necessarily want to be in the A-League. There are certain conditions that need to be met, such as $5M up front financial guarantee plus expenses of upwards of $3-5M every year. A lot of very good football clubs don’t want to make that sort of commitment. They love being semi-professional and playing for the love of it. They may be good enough to win their city or state league, but don’t want to risk all their money (and borrowing some more) for an A-League franchise.
d. Regional towns don’t have that sort of talent or money (not to mention stadium and training ground infrastructure) just lying around waiting for someone to start an A-League franchise in their back yards. Would be great for the game but presently wouldn’t be many regional centres that could buy an A-League franchise.
e. FFA aren’t flush with money and wouldn’t be able to run another national competition (already have to foot the bills for a national ladies and youth league). Stretching the scarce resources of the FFA in its early ascendancy phase could see other things suffer.
f. The most likely teams that would be able to take up the A-League franchises are old NSL clubs, run along nationalistic or ethnic grounds. The FFA is trying to get away from the ethnic type club and the negative hype that rival codes and dominated media would play on.
So if we don’t have a PandR system, then what other things can we do to create some interest at the bottom of the table and make the bottom teams compete right to the end?
1. Reduce the Club’s share of FFAs TV and sponsor’s money, the further down they finish in the table.
2. Make the bottom 2 teams play off with non A-League state teams in the first round of an FA Cup style knock out comp, and the others above them go straight into the second round.
3. Make the bottom 2 teams have a cards and porno night at Kevin Muscat’s place.
A second tier competition is probably not viable in the short term, so what else can we do to cheer up the cellar dwellers?
The Substitute said | June 5th 2008 @ 7:13pm | Report comment
Rosco,
The concepts of salary caps and promotion-relegation, sadly, cannot coexist. If all teams are “even” then why do the bottom two or three have to be relegated? There are plenty of other conflicts that come up.
That isn’t to say wage restriction is impossible. On this site before we have heard suggestions of mimicking the system used by many sports around the world of attaching a club’s salary size to the size of its revenues. This will ensure clubs won’t go broke due to excessive spending.
jimbo,
You make some good points there so I’ll respond to each of them quickly. But firstly: P&R is about 10 years away, if not more, so not really a short term option, more medium.
a. The healthier the local game is, the more players will return/not leave in the first place. I can’t categorically say we will avoid this come 2018, but we’re on our way.
b. Agreed, travel is a big concern.
c. The “AL2″ will be made up mostly of new teams and will not be just a re-vamped state league system. Clubs will want promotion.
d. We will trust economics to ensure clubs like Melbourne and Sydney will stay in the A-League (bigger markets, bigger fan bases, more revenue, etc. than other clubs). That same trust can be used to keep the smaller regional centres in the AL2. But there are plenty of regional centres out there with stadia. Of the “untapped” markets, Tassie is probably the only one that would. Darwin, perhaps. Sushine Coast, I honestly have no idea. But don’t forget Gold Coast, Wollongong, Townsville, Canberra, Geelong, Penrith, Parramatta – all of which are currently not in the A-League, but have venues of A-League calibre.
e. Another genuine concern, although teams will most likely be privately owned – not the responsibility of the FFA, unlike the other new comps coming in for youth and women.
f. The FFA will NOT allow ethnic teams to reappear in any way. Although this fear will also mean new teams from suburban Melbourne may not be accepted.
Redb said | June 5th 2008 @ 11:09pm | Report comment
“Looking forward to the intence relegation/promotion battles. No more probs with games of no intrest or playing for draft picks as in the AFL at the momment”
AFL Games with no interest? huh? AFl has the second highest average crowds in the world. Highest per capita crowds in the world.
Redb
Redb said | June 5th 2008 @ 11:13pm | Report comment
Subsitute,
You said A League is about to put other codes to shame. Now your saying P & R is ten years away.
Redb
The Substitute said | June 5th 2008 @ 11:26pm | Report comment
Redb,
The way things are shaping NOW (never mind the length of implementation) football will put the expansion plans of other codes to shame. Although it wasn’t mentioned in my article, I have maintained throughout these comments the fact P&R has a ten-year timeframe (perhaps more if we get the 2022 cup over the 2018 cup).
As I said to Michael C earlier, despite the ten-year timeframe, three facts still remain:
1. P&R would enable football to go deeper into the Australian market than any other code.
2. Cities/regions previously aligned with a rugby code or AFL but without a team (Tasmania, Sunshine Coast, etc.) could easily turn to football, just like the Central Coast.
3. It is hard to see P&R (or even a radical overhaul of second tier comps) happening with any of the other codes in the next ten years, football’s P&R timeframe, if ever.
The theme of the article had a long-term view in mind — this isn’t going to happen overnight and I doubt anybody seriously thinks it will.
Redb said | June 6th 2008 @ 12:18am | Report comment
Sub,
You are aware of the various tiers that sit under the AFL, eg: VFL (includess Tasmania, Ballarat, Bendigo), SANFL and WAFL. Under those leaguesa rethe TAC under 18s, EDFL, Murray Goulburn,etc. They arent P and R -but massive support structures that feed into the AFL. The crowds flock to the elite level.
Your point 2. is wishul thinking to some extent. Sure people may get involved, but for example, Tasmania is AFLheartland, I’ve visited Tassy many times, their teams are from the old VFL (Ess, Carl,etc) . Even people in Adelaide and Perth still support old teams from the VFL. The transfer of interest is not that simple.
I think your right about the addition of new teams to the A League will be faster than the AFL. But at the moment AFL is 16 going to 18. HAL is 8 teams – so it will be awhile yet.
Redb
Redb
Paul said | June 6th 2008 @ 7:25am | Report comment
Substitute, Red B,
AFL has far from reached its maximum saturation level in this country and the Pacific. I think you will find that they have further expansion plans than just Gold Coast and Western Sydney. But why would they want to reveal all of their plans? This would just give the game away to other codes. The FFA are full of a lot of hot air and boasting at the moment. If they announce their plans to the world, it simply gives the far more powerful AFL a chance to take this into account in their long term planning.
Thanks FFA for revealing your plans to the world!
Dave said | June 6th 2008 @ 7:54am | Report comment
Paul
Think you take this all a little to seriously…dont worry your AFL will be fine but…it will have greater competition from football in the coming years.
Unfortunately Paul they cant do that with AFL!
BTW Article in todays Age re 150th Year Anniversary match Scotch Coll vs… in August. Although they were supposed to be at the match, give speech etc guess what AD and Mike Fitzpatrick have better things to do…yes go to the Olympics. What about that? Certainly puts the 150 year celebrations in its place. Dont worry same will happen at the opening game of 2018 WC in Melb. AFL boys will be in attendance lapping up the chance to mix with the world
Paul said | June 6th 2008 @ 9:19am | Report comment
Dave,
I know AFL will be fine.
I’m just tired of your continual knocking of the AFL. “Unfortunately, they can’t do that with the AFL”. It is making the Roar a tiresome place to be. Too many soccer people continually barraging about how their game will take over. Frankly I’m sick and tired of it.
Dave, firstly, are you Australian born? If you are, have you ever spent much time outside of Australia, that is actually lived and not just been a tourist? It’s impossible to bring some real perspective into our debate. Let me know.
Norm said | June 6th 2008 @ 9:36am | Report comment
What’s the difference Paul between AFL fans continually reminding us that their code has the highest per capita & 2nd highest average attendances in the world & us continually reminding AFL fans thet their code has no international reach.
Millster said | June 6th 2008 @ 9:39am | Report comment
Paul I don’t understand what you are trying to say in your last para to Dave – can you explain?
The reason I ask is that I was born in Canada, have lived in France (and hold dual Aust-French citizenship), and travel for work or play for a total of about 3 months away each year. By the time this year is through I will have slept at least one night in 8 different countries in 2008. And over the 35 years of my life, the overall total is in the 30’s.
I’m not bragging but I am setting myself up as being credibly able to say that it is you who I think lack perspective, not Dave.
AFL is awesomely successful FOR WHAT IT IS. But what it is has to be recognised too – a niche code that exists in the bottom corner of a distant and not-so-large-or-important country in the world. Get out a world map and mark in whatever highlighter colour you prefer the states of Victoria, South Australia and Western Australia. Oh, Tasmania too. Then take a step back and look at the overall picture. You’ll see what I mean.
Please note I want football to be successful. But I don’t want it to ‘take over’ to the point of killing AFL, as you imply that my fellow football supporters do. As I’ve said on other threads, I’m glad to live in a city and country where I have a choice of 4 codes to attend if I want.
Koala Bear said | June 6th 2008 @ 9:49am | Report comment
Towser wrote:Perhaps you could jog my memory as sometimes football matches blur a little over the years.
Towser, we are looking for a good Championship team to clean the sheds at Stamford bridge next season..
I just thought I would touch on the three most important Football teams in the world — The Footballroos; The Sydney FC; and the Chelsea.
But let me tell you of my experiences and early memories of the Chelsea FC.. Being an Aussie and only watching English Football on the ABC TV (Brian Moore’s “The Big Match”) My memory of the first English game I saw on TV was the Tottenham winning the FA cup Final; the year they won the double.. I nearly became a Hotspur fan after seeing the Great Jimmy Greaves and Danny Blanchflower in action..
But it was when I saw Chelsea tour Australia way back in the sixties and they played a NSW XI at the Sydney Cricket Ground where Terry Venables (capt) was leading a very young side with a very youthful Peter Osgood up front. The manager was David Sexton.. I think they went through the tour undefeated.. But it wasn’t until I went to England on a working holiday and rented in Chelsea that they became my English Club..
The first match I attended in London was at Stamford Bridge; it is still clear in my memory except for the score line. I made the mistake in entering the away end of the old Stamford Bridge on my own. I think there was a dog racing track running around it.. Nonetheless, the Chelsea were playing visiting Leeds reigning English champions; led by Billy Bremner a mighty side they were in those days.. I watched the entire 1972-73 season before retuning home.. Great memories.. Still have a few of the match programs in my box of overseas memorabilia. I shall never forget the experience or some of my favourite players at the time with Charlie Cooke, King Ozzie, Alan Hudson, Chris Garland, Harris, and Davis Webb, Terry Venables. The Chelsea were called the entertainers in that season.
C’mon the Chelsea..!! 
Now we are one of the most powerful clubs in Europe..
~~~~~~
KB
Millster said | June 6th 2008 @ 10:00am | Report comment
KB you old bugger, I was born at the end of that season!! Love your work
The Substitute said | June 6th 2008 @ 10:13am | Report comment
Paul,
I’d like to hear what you think the AFL is planning, there is a limited number of markets in Australia to expand to and the next logical ones beyond GC and West Sydney have been laughed at by AFL House.
Also, why all the hate about “soccer people” saying they can rival AFL if you think the AFL will be fine? What is wrong with both codes reaching their full potential?
Redb,
re Point 2, as the Central Coast revealed, a top flight team can be an attractive alternative to following a team from other cities (or in Tasmania’s case – another island!)
Sure, football won’t destroy the other codes in theses markets (RL lives on in Gosford) but they will become a good alternative to the locals. Which is better than nothing.
Koala Bear said | June 6th 2008 @ 10:16am | Report comment
Norm,
I was touch by your last post to me, and remain ever so grateful for the opportunity to win back the hearts of the gals of the CRSL Ladies Auxiliary and as I ‘m also running short of Viagra; I feel we need to introduce of a much younger stud..
However, your nominee of Comrade Paul to take up the position of the New Social Director is too ambitious, as I have approached the Dunlop Rubber company and conveyed to them our dilemma on who should next be appointed.
They replied in their view, tho Comrade Paul being Australian born citizen and spending so much time in Siberia could be dangerous for the gals in the Auxiliary. They say the only solution for him to operate in that roll satisfactorily and safely was for them to supply a special condom made from their Semi trailer inner heavy duty rubber black tubes, that can easily be converted into condoms.. Unfortunately for us there will be attached a disclaimer .. I await for you reply..
~~~~~~~
KB
Redb said | June 6th 2008 @ 10:44am | Report comment
Sub,
“Sure, football won’t destroy the other codes in theses markets (RL lives on in Gosford) but they will become a good alternative to the locals. Which is better than nothing”
Now we are on the same page.
Redb
Koala Bear said | June 6th 2008 @ 12:34pm | Report comment
Norm,
I really am perplexed..!! It now seems that Redb is wanting the position of the CRSL Social Directorship .. He has put up his hand for the position and has asked for an immediate home service from one of our gals.
There seems to be no honour in Marn Grook territory; no ethics;
my generation had a name for it; we use to call such people as doing a Scott Bonner.. or grass cutters.. Nonetheless, I can’t see an immediate return of Comrade Paul from Siberia and as the Dunlop order will not take place soon enough. I shall run the ruler over Redb’s fingers to see if he qualifies for the position on the short term only, at the very least.
Well Norm, I am off to the CRSL with my wife and shall return late tonight.. When I have further news from comrade Paul I shall post to bring you up to speed .. In the meantime Happy Marn Grook…
Millster,
I had no idea you are such an influential poster, and I think you are just trying to get on my better side to discuss my obvious CRSL conquests with Jeff Kennett, as he has taken a keen interest with the Ladies Auxiliary, always pestering them and asking what they see in me..
PS to all I shall be watching the RL and the Grooky on Saturday Avo.. damn, I hope its not another shellacking of the Dons..
~~~~~
KB
Millster said | June 6th 2008 @ 1:01pm | Report comment
I note that Paul has made himself absent. Probably the only tactic available to him now that those ‘arguments’ of his have been blown out of the water….
Redb said | June 6th 2008 @ 1:25pm | Report comment
KB,
Not interested in social directorhsip just give me the ointment it will be enough.
Dons play Saturday night. Shellacking unfortunately possible Hawthorn are 2nd on the ladder, we are 14th
, but expect some fireworks nonetheless. Best games will be tonight North v Geelong and then Swannies v West Coast.
Redb
Rosco said | June 6th 2008 @ 1:31pm | Report comment
“AFL Games with no interest? huh? AFl has the second highest average crowds in the world. Highest per capita crowds in the world”
Redb
My comment was not one re attendance (I’m an avid AFL supporter & member) Its just that when my team is last (as is the case this year) or the finals are out of reach, I am hoping for the 1st or highest draft pick possible and thats it. No one can tell me round 22 last year between Melb & Carl was a game of interest other than Carl securing the #1 pickand melb being stupid enough to win their 5th game that eliminated them from contention for a priority pick this year.
P&R battles where fights to stay up or go up would no doubt hold more interest than a draft pick race.
Redb said | June 6th 2008 @ 1:55pm | Report comment
Rosco,
I agree I think the AFL has to look at the priority picks system for coming last. There have always been wooden spooners in the VFL/AFL, the prioty picks is a recent phenomen. However I suspect the drop back to the VFL for a Melbourne or Carlton would be the death knell for the club and conversely who has the capacity to step up. The best players are already in the AFL with a club.
Romance aside, we are not England with its much larger population confined to very small area dotted with tribal communities. Melbourne itself is not made up of shires with distinct tribal followings, most AFL fans wouldn’t live in their own area anymore, exception would be Geelong.
I have an English uncle who was out recently , mad soccer fan, he said the P & R can also induce strange financial benefits. His example was a relegated club ($20M) got more financial compensation than the newly promoted club ($10m) thus making it more desirable to be relegated. Maybe I got it wrong, but we were comparing the priority pick system in AFL with the P & R in the EPL and how it can reward mediocrity.
Redb
Joe FC said | June 6th 2008 @ 2:05pm | Report comment
Redb
“thus making it more desirable to be relegated. Maybe I got it wrong”….. Yes you got it wrong….no English club wants to be relegated……ever.
Redb said | June 6th 2008 @ 2:13pm | Report comment
Joe FC,
The emphasis wasn’t on wanting to be relegated but rather it actaully rewarded them more financially. If i got it wrong , fine, but it seemed in parallel to the AFL’s priority picks. It was probably all that guiness he tried to make me drink.
Redb
Joe FC said | June 6th 2008 @ 2:29pm | Report comment
Redb
I suspect it was the guiness. The money relegated clubs receive is not because they are relegated but because they have completed their season in a particular division i.e. they get it in spite of relegation ( they would have got the same money if they’d stayed up ).
Midfielder said | June 6th 2008 @ 2:39pm | Report comment
All
Pommies drink warm beer, some Europeans drive on the wrong side of the road.
What ever R & P system FFA set up, will be a process to work towards as I have said before and will not be ready for years to come, but we know how to get there when released. Further will be the Australia way of doing it and I don’t think will look anything like the European vision.
Further and I posted this in the WC thread as well, but aspects of the article are here as well, the prospect of a regional centre making in in Asia / Middle East, will fund a lot in the future and both the Mariners & Newcastle business communities are planning heaps during next years ACL.
Anyway an article in the smh today
Exporters hope Socceroos will kick open new markets
John Huxley
June 6, 2008
BRITAIN once opened new markets by building empires. This week Australian exporters hoped trade would follow football by joining the Socceroos’ World Cup campaign.
The Australian Trade Commission has organised a series of business breakfasts in the Middle East to capitalise on local interest in the team’s qualifying games in Dubai on Saturday and Doha a week later.
Austrade’s chief economist, Tim Harcourt, said the popularity of the “world game”, the profile of players such as captain Harry Kewell and Australia’s World Cup finals success in 2006 provided a springboard into huge markets.
Common interests and cultural ties are an important part of the business potential of football, said Mr Harcourt, pointing to the role of migrants in the development of both the game and overseas trade.
“Exporting companies are more likely to be started by immigrants. Think Bing Lee, Crazy John’s and Frank Lowy,” he said. Mr Lowy is the president of Football Federation Australia and founder of the Westfield group.
Bonita Mersiades, the federation’s head of corporate affairs, said it had approached Austrade because it believed football had the power and responsibility to “open foreign doors” to business and government.
The Socceroos play Iraq tomorrow and Qatar a week later, before returning to play China at Homebush on June 22. Big business, more than most, will be hoping they go all the way to the World Cup finals in South Africa in 2010.
chris said | June 7th 2008 @ 8:58pm | Report comment
The centre of the universe for Soccer is England with the English Premiership yet Englands national team can not even get into Euro 2008.
Soccer Australia should make sure the game is focused on the pitch not on the $$$$ that players get,WAG lifestyle and that god awful word BLING.
Paul said | June 7th 2008 @ 10:42pm | Report comment
The Substitute,
I have my ideas about what the AFL’s plans are after Gold Coast and Western Sydney. The first plan will be to consolidate those expansion teams. But any business needs to expand or it will stagnate and shrink. This is the nature of the beast for a successful corporation. If the VFL had never expanded, it would eventually have lost out to something else (who knows, the Super League may have been a different story).
The AFL is now a major corporate entity in Australia. They will expand nationally as far as the market will let them. It is then only natural for a corporate entity to begin to expand internationally, as Mc Donalds did in the 1960s and as Starbucks did in the 90s. Natural expansion would be to Papua New Guinea and New Zealand and eventually to South Africa. Before this, Tasmania will make a good case for a team. Their population is growing faster than some states at the moment. When they are ready then Tasmania will have a team too.
Whether these are the AFL’s plans or not are in some ways irrelevant. Growth will also happen organically, and will naturally progress in these directions. As Red B pointed out, deliberate growth has only happened for a couple decades. Once the growth process has started naturally, it takes on a life of its own.
The Substitute said | June 8th 2008 @ 2:50pm | Report comment
Paul,
As it currently stands, Tasmania will not be given a new team – no matter how much thy deserve it – and for that attitude to change, there need to be a merger or a relocation from a Melbourne club. This is not beyond the realms of possibility, but in the next 10 years (football’s P&R timeframe) that would be the ONLY possible AFL expansion outside of the GC and WS.
The international locations you mentioned are very long-term options. They will not be introduced in time to counter football’s efforts through P&R.
PNG in particular is nowhere near ready. Whilst it may seem a good idea because their population is roughly a third of ours, you have to look beyond the figures. The infrastructure isn’t there. Travelling from Lae to Port Moresby is not as easy as jumping on the V-Line into Melbourne. The stadium isn’t there. What about the corporate support? PNG is too far away.
New Zealand and South Africa are both possible, but definitely not in the next ten years.
But back to the point of the article and AFL’s expansion plans for the NEAR future. The “corporate beast” that is the AFL has limitations. It has to look at the impact on broadcast rights new teams may have (as I mentioned in the article, Tasmania doesn’t add much value to the rights). Also, 18 teams seems to be the premium number of AFL clubs for the next few decades. Even if further expansion took place, that figure will never rival two tiers of football.
The FFA can reveal their plans to the world because P&R would remove the limitations from expansion, a huge advantage over other codes. Unlike the AFL, they will not be limited to 18-20 teams. They may even introduce some form of third division down the track. The impact of new teams on broadcast rights won’t be huge because the major city teams will spend most of their time in the A-League and the lesser cities, the ones not-so-vital to broadcast rights, will be rotating between the two divisions. In fact, the second tier will introduce more fans to the game which will only serve to increase the value of the first tier’s rights.
Whilst growth will happen organically, football’s growth is going to be of a much more rapid pace and much more far-reaching to the AFL’s.
Paul said | June 8th 2008 @ 7:13pm | Report comment
Substitute,
I have also argued in the past, that if Tasmania can convince a Melbourne team to relocate, that the AFL could not really stop this. However I doubt that any of the Melbourne teams want to relocate.
I do agree with you that within the next 10 years Western Sydney and Gold Coast will be the only AFL expansion teams. Once they are consolidated and Tassie’s population has grown, then Tassie could be an option. But by then Adelaide or Perth could also be ready for a third team.
New Zealand would come before PNG or South Africa. (South Africa will probably have to develop their own competition because of distance that will merely be a feeder comp to the AFL). This would also be a long way off. Within 20 years.
But if promotion and relegation works for soccer, perhaps the AFL would consider it. (I’m just throwing ideas around.)
Top 18 division 1
WAFL- 9 teams, SANFL- 9 teams, QFL- 8 teams.
(Tasmania have a team in the VFL, NT will have a team in one of the three state leagues.) = 28 teams
The winners of the respective leagues could battle it out with the potential relegation teams from the AFL during the same time as the AFL finals. One winner from each from WA, SA and QLD, to battle against the bottom 3 in the AFL. The losers would be relegated or stay in the state league. Very problematic, I know, but it is just an idea that would need a lot of work. Of course the second tier competitions could be completely reworked into a national division 2 and 3.
The Substitute said | June 8th 2008 @ 8:07pm | Report comment
Paul,
Spot on with Tassie. The AFL would LOVE a Melbourne team to relocate to Tassie. It would ease the current pressure on the other clubs and secure an AFL heartland. This would also bypass the broadcast rights concerns. It would be a win for the surviving Melbourne clubs, the AFL, Tasmania and broadcasters – but the one party most vital to the situation is the one most opposed to it, the club that has to move.
The ongoing concern about the number of Melbourne teams is real and eventually one will be forced into relocation, but it will not be easy convincing a club to take the offer.
Clubs who have a clear strategy to survive will do so, particularly once the AFL sought out the poor venue deals. The heat is on Melbourne at the moment, but with the links they are forming in China, the targeting of Chinese students, the move into Casey and Jim Stynes coming in as president – they are headed in the right direction. North Melbourne appear to have turned a corner. The Bulldogs are making some good investments out west. Hawthorn have removed themselves from the strugglers category.
St Kilda is a club I have the biggest concern over. On field results and potential have masked the fact they are not a powerhouse and I cannot see the same vision that is coming out of the three clubs I just mentioned.
Anyway, P&R in the AFL is an interesting thought, particular if it has engagement with the SANFL, WAFL, etc. You have given me something to think about…
Michael C said | June 9th 2008 @ 8:46pm | Report comment
Priority draft picks – -
we joked about the ‘Kreuzer Cup’, and, yet, this weekend, the ‘winner’ of that ‘cup’, had Kreuzer kick 3 goals in the last qtr to storm home against Port Power and snatch a very unlikely win.
The ‘loser’ of that ‘cup’, gutsed it out against the vastly superior (on form) Collingwood, and, only were ‘buried’ within the last 10 mins, or, what they might not have done for a Kreuzer up forward, booting 2 or 3 telling goals in that last quarter.
btw -
just for those round ball blinkered sports fans – who seem to believe the close is good if it’s legislated by the negative rules and defensive ’strategies’ of an entire code – -
I’ve heard people go on about ‘enjoy your 80 point margins’,
well, this weekend,
3 games went to half time in a wonderful parallel, underdogs battling much superior team,
Geel vs North (especially ravaged by injury)
Haw vs Ess
Coll vs Melb
and, yes, the ‘big boys’ won all 3 games – - but, in each, at half time the underdog had battled away, stuck to it, refused to get ‘blown away’. In each, the game was up for grabs.
Now, Essendon, couldn’t sustain it, they lost by 51 points. As a North supporter, I fully expected that same fate – - as it was, with 4 mins to go, we were within 7 points and only the next goal to Geelong effectively sealed the issue (oh, that and 31 frees to 19!!!).
Even Melbourne today, battled it out, almost got blown away in the 3rd. Managed to peg it back to a 3 goal game – but finally, were overpowered.
Now – -it’s the fact that you can so easily, should you lapse, even for 5 or 10 mins, you can be blown away – - that makes the close margins, the close results – when they happen, all the more enthralling.
Now – when we take into account the respectively 7 goal turn around matches with the Swans storming home to snatch a win over the Eagles (earlier in the night it was the Eagles 6 goals to the swans 5 behinds only – - how many soccer folk would’ve written off this game at that point). And, Carlton, with Kruezer and Marc Murphy (the rewards of early draft picks) leading the charge – and, again, to 3 qtr time, Carlton had been really struggling to raise 2 flags……..
so – - the fact that a team can be 6 goals down, and we know, they MAY lose by 80 points, ……, or…….they may ‘come back’ and make a match of it….or…..they may even snatch a win…….that’s what makes it great……because, getting hammered by 80 to 100 points IS a possibility.
cheers.
Michael C said | June 9th 2008 @ 8:56pm | Report comment
Lazza -
from 4 days ago -
Adelaide on $5m vs some clubs on $60-$70m prooves either of the following:
1. there’s some ordinary talent identification going on
2. there’s some expensive ‘teams’, that don’t speak the same language on the paddock
3. soccer rewards mediocrity via artificially lowered scores
4. that some teams are wasting $55-$65m, because of all of the above.
Midfielder said | June 11th 2008 @ 12:38am | Report comment
From the Herald Sun
A new ball gameArticle from: Font size: Decrease Increase Email article: Email Print article: Print Submit comment: Submit comment Chris Fotinopoulos
June 10, 2008 12:00am
IN the 1950s and ’60s, many newcomers to the country achieved cultural acceptance by doing what true Australians did – drink VB, barrack for Australia in all sporting contests, follow the footy and buy a home with a big enough back yard for the kids to play cricket.
This was a good way of leaving the ways of the old country behind for all that the new country had on offer.
My dad, as with many new arrivals, followed the footy and cricket as a way of demonstrating his allegiance to his new home.
Given that his first place of residence was only a few streets away from Collingwood’s home ground, he chose to follow the Pies.
Although the game he watched at Victorian Park was nothing like the one he followed back home, he saw it as his patriotic duty to learn all he could about his adopted country’s indigenous sport.
It was, after all, a matter of opening his mind to a new ball game.
His neighbourhood spoke through footy, and my dad learnt its language well enough to understand that expressions such as “shirt-front”, “hip and shoulder”, “high elbow”, and “hit behind play” not only applied to the footy field, but to the streets of working-class Abbotsford.
Aussie rules continues to speak to Melburnians in a powerful and parochial way, which is why I expect people to criticise the Rudd Government’s decision to push ahead with its $60 million attempt to host the 2018 World Cup.
Some will continue to harp on how soccer is a low-scoring, mind-numbing spectacle that symbolises all that is wrong with the old world — mob violence, ethnic rivalries, stadium riots and male aggression.
Some will still insist that soccer is a foreign game that Australians should reject in favour of our game.
But times have changed.
The Sudanese and Somalian kids from the housing commission flats are unfazed by fans cutting through their game of soccer as they make their way to the G to watch Collingwood battle Melbourne, for these kids are free to follow whichever sport they want.
Footy, as with cricket, tennis, rugby, netball, swimming and golf, has lost some of its cultural significance in a sports market that is becoming increasingly globally oriented.
These days, the success of any sporting code comes down to how well the product is packaged, promoted, and sold to the public.
The AFL has proved to be very good at this, and now soccer is lifting its game. We now have a popular and financially viable national soccer league that attracts crowds on par with AFL and cricket.
This, coupled with Australia’s inclusion in the Asian Football Confederation, will ensure that the game will continue to grow at unprecedented levels.
There are now more than 430 registered clubs in Victoria alone, most of them running several teams from seniors down to under sevens.
And there are thousands of kids playing in school soccer teams, and amateur, church and bayside leagues.
Although the jeers, cheers, celebrations, and verbal stoushes at many of these games may have a different linguistic tone from a cricket one-dayer or a footy blockbuster at the G, the open-minded sports fan will appreciate that soccer speaks to many Australians as coherently as footy and cricket has.
The social significance of the rise of soccer in Australia cannot be underestimated.
Its growth will acquaint Australians with the language of global partnerships, international dialogue, and cultural exchange.
Given that the Rudd Government recognises the benefits in forming strong economic and political partnerships with Asia and especially China (the country that Australia meets in its final game of its Asian qualifying group), soccer is the perfect vehicle to strengthen such ties.
As Football Federation Australia chairman Frank Lowy put it in Brisbane after Australia defeated Iraq in its World Cup qualifying game last week, the future of football is in the new world – that is, the developing and growing regions of the world such as Asia.
And this, clearly, is where Australia’s future lies.
I hope that those who have been hostile to soccer and its supporters in the past will get behind the push to secure the World Cup finals in Australia for 2018 – for Australia’s sake.
After all, $60 million is a small price to pay for a lesson in global dialogue.
– Chris Fotinopoulos is a Melbourne writer and teacher
Michael C said | June 11th 2008 @ 9:05am | Report comment
Midfielder -
nice pleasant piece – - – could almost be in the advertorial section….
“We now have a popular and financially viable national soccer league that attracts crowds on par with AFL and cricket. ”
Hmmm, we could discuss this line.
Popular – - – well, by comparison to the old NSL perhaps. Many soccer fans still reject the ‘local product’, because, realistically, relative to people with a Sweeney report ‘interest’ or ABS ‘participation’ – - the ratio of people ’supporting’, ‘attending’ the HAL is very, very minor.
“Attracts crowds on par with AFL” – - okay, the MVFC in Melb once a fortnight attract crowds on a ‘par’ with the lower end crowds in AFL. That’s not really what ‘par’ means. ‘Par’ for the course re AFL crowds is nearer to 40K – - and split over 10 Vic teams and anywhere from 4 to 5 Melb-Geel based games a week.
And, certainly around the nation – - the HAL crowds are only really on a Par with the NRL. So – - a bit of an over the top ‘pro soccer’ statement there.
Financially viable – - theoretically, although, 3 years in, we still need to see how truely viable the FFA itself is and how truely viable the clubs actually are – - there’s a scarcity of actually information in the public domain, it’s all a bit secretive, – - but, that’s, in reality, nothing new. In my efforts to find annual reports – - the AFL is so much more accessible than any of the other domestic codes. (maybe, that’s because they’ve been in a ‘good news’ phase, and, should that change, then they too might become more protective of what might be considered more ’sensitive’ information).
- – - – -
in a general sense,
Soccer is the sporting equivalent of McDonalds – - I’d hate to think that our Asian ‘relationships’ are going to be built around the equivalent of a cheeseburger and fries from Maccas. I’d hate to think that people come to Australia and are UNABLE to identify anything unique about the ‘culture’ into which they have chosen to move to.
The market place apparently demands McDonalds – - that’s fine. It’s also a little sad.
And – - the ‘in between the lines’ interpretation of this article is -
“Its growth will acquaint Australians with the language of global partnerships, international dialogue, and cultural exchange. ”
What? We don’t do that already? What a load of crud. We’ve just yesterday seen the value of $30-$60m in hybrid car manufacture – - for Australias sake. Australians – for eons – have backpacked the world – as an almost ‘coming of age’, as a nation, we have assimilated people from all over the world, not in dribs and drabs – over the years – but, in periods of major influx. This line seems to paint a picture of Australia circa 1935 – White Australia policy and all. It’s cliched, and a little offensive.
“Given that the Rudd Government recognises the benefits in forming strong economic and political partnerships with Asia and especially China (the country that Australia meets in its final game of its Asian qualifying group), soccer is the perfect vehicle to strengthen such ties. ”
Soccer is BUT one ‘vehicle’, certainly, in the short term, the Beijing Olympics – - or humanitarian assistance during times of crisis etc.
Melbourne mayor John So, of Chinese origin, has been a ‘perfect vehicle’ too, and has even assisted in taking to China something uniquely identifiable with Australia – - (Aust Footy) – - something that if it develops in China will build a single cultural bridge directly linking China and Australia – - that’s a neat little ‘vehicle’ too. China has also indicated they want to become a cricketing power – - what better ‘partner’ than Australia could be found – - and, there’s less cricket playing nations than soccer – - and Australia is a recognised global leader in cricket – - are, the much, much more significant role we could play than just being one of 206 affiliated ‘nations’.
“I hope that those who have been hostile to soccer and its supporters in the past will get behind the push to secure the World Cup finals in Australia for 2018 – for Australia’s sake. ”
Show us the details. This is where the authors true colours come out – he’s still carrying a huge chip on his shoulders.
So – - basically a ‘blog’ type article, full on hyperbole, nothing in the way of supporting evidence, inclusive of some effectively false or at very least misleading statements. What a nice soccer freindly piece this is – - I hope those whingers about AFL close shop media in Melbourne have all made themselves familiar with this piece of drivel.
Koala Bear said | June 11th 2008 @ 9:30am | Report comment
Midfielder,
that was a nice piece you posted up. I also had a reply from Frank and Ben about that false $60m bid claim from the Marn Grook press. I hope you will join me in spreading the word to all in the Football community.
~~~~~~~~~
Dear Koala Bear,
You may be aware that last week FFA hosted the FIFA Congress in Sydney, involving around 2,000 visitors to Australia including the top off-field football people from 201 of the 208 member nations of FIFA.
It was a highly successful occasion, with delegates and FIFA executives all commending FFA on the management and friendliness of the occasion.
This was a very important event for FFA, as it gave us the opportunity to get to know more people in the wide world of football and to show them a little of what Australia has to offer. We were also able to have many one-on-one meetings with members of the FIFA Executive, as well as other delegates, and we also announced the establishment of a collaborative arrangement with the Italian football association which includes their support for our bid to host the 2018 FIFA World Cup.
We were very delighted that the feedback we received was overwhelmingly positive, and we believe this is a strong base from which to build a bid. The 2018 FIFA World Cup was, of course, one of the issues that arose during the week, and we wish to let you know of the reasons why we intend making it.
We believe that hosting a World Cup would be a very powerful way to set up football in Australia and in the Asian region.
The Asian Football Confederation is the fastest growing region in world football, and Asia also has the fastest growing economy.
As we all know, from events such as the Sydney Olympic Games and others, Australia has the capacity and expertise to host a major sporting event in this timeframe.
A World Cup would have enormous economic and social benefits for Australia. While a bid comes with a cost, if successful it is an investment that would pay enormous dividends for Australia and for future generations – our children, our grandchildren and their children.
As a guide, a 2004 study on the economic impact of the 2003 Rugby World Cup found that the total ‘value added’ to the Australian economy was $289 million. By comparison, the same study showed that the total value added for the Sydney Olympic Games was $6.5 billion, and for the FIFA World Cup held in Japan and Korea in 2002 was $27.7 billion.
We are confident we have strong support from around the world.
FFA will be formally launching its bid for the 2018 FIFA World Cup towards the end of the year but, in the meantime, we would invite you to lend your support to the cause and become an advocate for ‘Australia 2018′ at home, at school, at work and at your football club.
We will write to you with more detail later in the year. In the meantime, if you require further information please contact the FFA Head of Corporate and Public Affairs, Ms Bonita Mersiades by e-mail to 2018info@footballaustralia.com.au
On another note, we hope you enjoy the performances of the Qantas Socceroos and the Matildas in their respective World Cup qualifying and Asian Women’s Cup matches over the next few weeks.
Frank Lowy AC
Chairman
Ben Buckley
Chief Executive Officer
~~~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | June 11th 2008 @ 10:11am | Report comment
btw -
“After all, $60 million is a small price to pay for a lesson in global dialogue. ”
so – - have we agreed as yet, as to whether we are talking about $60m or $30m.
If the $60m is a figment of the MElb based anti soccer press – - then, what’s this line say about the fluff piece that Midfielder has presented this morning.
KB -
as Jimbo reacted appropriately – by actually responding to a couple of questions that were put – - only after I made the comment you refer to – - I’ll state that at least Jimbo had the good grace to finally, when prompted, to respond to questions or points raised.
so – in reference to the following (what which I said) : Michael C. wrote: KB and Norm – - I can see why he appeals so to you fellows – - in the Pauline Hansen manner, we get a bit of dogma but very little credibility. Yep – - right up your alley.
You, yourself, have a tendancy to dance around issues, questions, points – - and have in doing so raised the ire of Paul (fairly – - although, in no way am I defending every posting or stance of Paul – - simply pointing out that you have a track record of avoiding the topic). I’ve often thought that I’ve presented a pretty nice rebuttal or counter point – - only to have you completely ignore it, change tact entirely, or dredge to an alternate thread. The simpe fact that various folk have managed to drag the indigenous funding from the relevant thread to the ‘why Australia’s bid….’ thread – - just, astounds me, but, that’s seemingly par for the course.
btw – I still ‘luv ya!’ – - so, don’t worry, although, the Comrade C seems to fall a bit flat when we have a ‘real comrade’ on line from the motherland…….;-)
And – the fact that someone inappropriately took offence way back when on the SMH flog – - hardly made me a racial vilification hypocrite, and only makes more strange the fact that you are trying in someway to use that against me here.
Towser said | June 11th 2008 @ 10:13am | Report comment
Michael C
Re the Mcdonalds/ football comparison which appears as a consistent quote from non football people.
Very wrong.
No matter where you go in the world(& I’ve travelled extensively, Asia also) the Mcdonalds menu is the same.
No matter where you go in the world the football menu is not the same.
It may be controlled by one autocratic body FIFA with uniform rules ,but the manner in which it is played both practically on the park & emotionally is determined by the culture & climatic conditions of a particular country.
Furthermore the sport has evolved as a world game by the choice of the populace throughout the globe.
Their was no clever Mcdonalds marketing campaign involved to sell the product.
It just grew like topsy because the world wanted it & it grew because the sport was adaptable to local conditions.
Michael C said | June 11th 2008 @ 10:39am | Report comment
Towser -
‘choice’ is an interesting notion in this respect.
We do know that in many ’soccer’ nations – - there really was no alternative provided. So – the global spread as evidence of ‘choice’ is only able to argued so far.
It seems that there are those who lament that soccer wasn’t in the unbeatable position from the outset in Austalia – - and, are reliant upon the ‘power’ of external factors to instigate growth in this country. Is that real choice too? Or, a perpetuation of the results of a lack of choice?
I’m not sure what you’re trying to claim as different items on the football menu. The game is essentially the same, the world over – with the autocratic rule of FIFA – - even dumbing the game down by denying the rights of high altitude nations to play full internationals with a decent home advantage – - that’s a homogenising policy if ever I’ve seen one.
To me – - real variety in football menus are only found by venturing to the US, Canada, Ireland, Australia…ah,…the Australian way of playing football – - quite clearly defined and NOT requiring a couple of Dutchman to teach us!!!!!!
…..(oh, that said, Paul Van Der Haar vs Peter Knights were duals of the highest calibre!)
The best you can put forward is a variety in localised emotional cultures and climatic conditions – - well, that’s like saying that because the climate is different in Japan, and Japanese people mainly speak Japanese and perhaps have a different sense of humour – therefore, McDonalds, too – - is a very distinct experience in Tokyo compared to Brisbane…….(perhaps not so much, Cairns!).
I’m afraid, to me, the Football Menu you speak of is pretty well the same the world over – - and becoming even MORE the same by virtue of the global nature of the soccer labour market – - be it good or bad, right or wrong – the fact that many EPL clubs have foreign managers and 70% of more foreign players on the pitch – - there’s not much that’s local anymore. When the owners are any US or Russian billionaire who comes promising deep pockets – - the sole of once culturally rich clubs is sold to the highest bidder.
It’s all a bit sad.
Fair enough, globalisation of the auto industry, or the pharmaceuticals industry – - – but, not everything has to be globalised down to the Nth degree.
That’s what I mean by the McDonalds comparison, soccer is global fare – - again, be it good or bad, often in the eye of the beholder – - but, it is very apt. Soccer is a global sporting mono-culture. It reduces the capacity for evolution by virtue of it’s monolithic vastness. In some respects, the business around the game is bigger than the game itself. It is understood in many cases that you don’t buy a team to make a day to day profit, you buy a team because, like a Van Gogh, someone is sure to pay much more for it when you come to sellig it. It’s actually a game that has exploded into a pretty grimy pyramid scheme – there are unsustainable elements at the top – It is perhaps an empire near its peak. What happens next? Hopefully, the ‘cutting edge’ of soccer might one day rediscover it’s roots, and rediscover what I think you like to romantically focus on – - and that is what prevents it being seen as the ‘McDonalds’ of world sport.
Koala Bear said | June 11th 2008 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
Michael C,
as you continually want to ignore the truth and dance around the questions asked of you. I have never ignored the issues and have continually posted Frank Lowy’s response of the 2018 bidding process (straight from the horses mouth) .. This will be the tird time; alas you continue to ignore my response. And throw up mistruths from the Melbourne press “$60m” false cost, so who is dancing around the truth? I am still waiting on the question I asked of the Nauru registrations of the Marn Grook players who have not had a competition for 2 years..
~~~~~~~
Chairman reaffirms 2018 focus
Monday, 2 June 2008
Sepp Blatter with Frank Lowy
Rob Cianflone © Getty Images Football Federation Australia (FFA) Chairman, Frank Lowy AC, today reaffirmed the organisation’s focus on the 2018 FIFA World Cup.
“I want to make it clear that we are aiming to host the 2018 FIFA World Cup.
“While I understand that there is a view emanating from Europe that it may well be the turn of Europe to be the hosts in 2018, the fact is football is a world game.
“Europe has unquestionably been the focus of football growth and development for much of the past 80 years, but the future of football is in the ‘new world’ – that is, the developing and growing regions of the world such as Asia.”
Mr Lowy said that Australia is part of the Asian Football Confederation which is the fastest growing region in world football, as well as having the fastest growing economy.
He also said that FIFA has indicated that the bids for the 2018 and 2022 World Cups could be bundled together.
“But I repeat that our focus is on 2018 because it is a powerful way to develop football in the Asian region and we have the capacity to host a major sporting event in this timeframe.”
He said that if Australia is not successful in 2018 it does not rule out 2022.
Mr Lowy also said that staging a major international event such as a World Cup has enormous economic and social benefits for the nation.
He said that a 2004 study by URS Finance and Economics on the economic impact of the 2003 Rugby World Cup found that the total ‘value added’ to the Australian economy was $289 million. By comparison, the same study noted that the total value added for the Sydney Olympic Games was $6.5 billion, and for the FIFA World Cup held in Japan and Korea in 2002 was $27.7 billion.
“There is a cost to mounting a bid but, if successful, it is an investment which will pay dividends for the nation and future generations,” Mr Lowy said.
“We are also confident that we have strong support from other countries around the world to bid for 2018, and we will be proceeding on this basis.”
~~~~~~~~
Dave can you put up the Kate Ellis letter for Michael C for the second time I can’t find it or confirm my statement to MC.
RE: Kate Ellis letter to the Age
Wrote there has on monies been given to the FFA as the detail has not even been discussed.
So the $60m dollars for the 2018 WC was a lie..
~~~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | June 11th 2008 @ 12:23pm | Report comment
KB -
I actually accepted your assertion about the bidding process.
I’ve long since moved on from that.
HOwever – -
I have simply pointed out here that the particular article printed in the H-S and copied onto theRoar by midfielder was very much a dubious pro soccer fluff piece that – - apparently, even got the $30m vs $60m question wrong.
That’s NOT me. That’s the article that you acknowledge thusly:
“Midfielder,
that was a nice piece you posted up. ”
I was simply pointing out – that, even as a soccer fluff piece – that the article was seemingly a failure.
I’ve no idea what you’re going on about. Twas someone else who linked to the Age article re. $60m. I accepted your version anyway, and have not questioned it since.
I have no reason to……
Dave said | June 11th 2008 @ 12:54pm | Report comment
KB MC
Letter from K Ellis AFL fan and Min of Sport The Age
“Soccer is super
THIS week The Age (2/6) questioned the rationale for the Federal Government’s support for Australia’s 2018 World Cup bid. While reports of a $60 million Government contribution are inaccurate, the Government gives its full support to the Football Federation of Australia in this endeavour. We appreciate the recent transformation that world football has undergone in this country and the resulting surge in participation rates. We also note the massive benefits in terms of trade, tourism and economic revenue that would result from a successful bid.
The Rudd Government will continue to advance the position of Australian sport and promote a broad range of grassroots and elite sporting activities.
Kate Ellis, Federal Minister for Sport ”
Michael C
If football is the world sport version of MCDonalds as you claim, then AFL, for all the reasons you state above for football, are the McDonalds of Victoria. I should know living here.
Some interesting points you make re world football above which shall respond to when l have time later.
Michael C said | June 11th 2008 @ 1:09pm | Report comment
KB -
what I have questioned is the absolute correctness of the apparent value to the economy.
What you continually ignore is the following:
Sth Africa. Estimated benefit to economy of $R20billion based on assumptions relative to the benefit from the ICC WC.
Costs just prior to Xmas already blown out to $R19.8Billion.
Not a real flash balance. But, people seem to focus on the hypothesised benefit whilst neglecting to balance that out against the costs.
We already have dubious long term benefits from the Sydney olympics such as the white elephant ANZ stadium, its associated debt and it’s desire to attract anything and everything just to be used – - let alone get anywhere near even 25% full.
We saw that in Japan,
Publication: AsiaPulse News -Publication Date: 14-JUN-02
Article Excerpt
TOKYO, June 14 Asia Pulse – The economic benefits from the World Cup soccer tournament will reach about 450-460 billion yen (US$3.6-$3.68 billion), Sumitomo-Life Research Institute said Thursday.
The economic benefits are estimated to push up Japan’s nominal gross domestic product in the current fiscal year by 0.1 percentage…
What? was that AFTER costs were deducted?
http://www.slate.com/id/2066392/
Japan, …, today introduces its latest public works boondoggle: 10 World Cup stadiums—shapely, modern, spectacular white elephants.
Unwilling to be one-upped by its former colony/little brother/bitter rival South Korea, Japan has matched its World Cup co-host stadium for stadium. In 1998, France needed only 10 stadiums to host the entire cup. This year, Japan and Korea are using 10 stadiums each, and all but two were purpose-built for the cup. France spent $1.5 billion on its stadiums; Japan alone has spent three times as much.
Japan was determined to build itself out of a 10 year economic downturn.
Japan now concedes that only two of the 10 stadiums will be self-supporting.
The Dentsu Institute for Human Studies, a leading think tank, has been forecasting that the World Cup would be the “trigger” that rockets Japan out of depression. Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi, whose own economic reforms have foundered, signed on to the World Cup recovery plan, too. Dentsu estimated that the cup would add $25 billion to the Japanese economy, increasing GNP by 0.6 percent—more if Japan qualified for the quarterfinals. Moreover, the lavish tourist spending and the good cheer caused by the tourney would lift Japanese spirits, improve consumer confidence, and start Japan back toward the glory of the ’80s.
Righto, estimates of $25b,
Look – - Japan and Korea got a bit of a boost. SOme of the figures bandied about are rubbery at best though. However – Sth Korea can probably claim to have been the bigger winner of Japan and Korea.
Now – - the problem is though -
you get benefit from infrastructure – - ONLY if that infrastructure is not a whole heap of useless stadia littering the countryside with huge debts.
you get benefit from tourism – - and, perhaps, a bunch of extra hotel room capacity is built – - but, what of that when the crowds head home – - perhaps more use a tent city that can be decamped at tourneys end.
in many cases – in Germany, Japan and Korea – a flow on effect was increased consumer spending, such as large screen TVs made be Loewe, or sports merchandise made by Adidas……unfortunately, we don’t make many tvs in Australia, and, even Sherrin footys are often ‘crafted’ in India. In fact, it might well be that we’ve missed the boat, because, the South Koreans now make much of what would benefit should we ‘win’ the hosting rights.
The present situation is one in which we certainly DON’T want to increase consumer spending. But – perhaps, the warnings are dire, perhaps the economists are anticipating that we are about to embark on a 10 year depression for which about the only possible ‘boost’ MIGHT be the dice roll gamble of hosting the FIFA WC………but, I’m still uncertain as to the real benefit outside of a few weeks of tourism (which’ll be a great party, make no mistake) – - so, if we host it – - let’s at least learn from the Japanese and NOT go spend crazy on unnecessary stadia, let’s make sure that……..again….as I’ve said before……we get certain important ongoing things right, such as a PT link to Tullamarine airport. Hey, why not the 2nd Sydney international airport! Y’know, useful things.
And – checking most histories – - the inititial ‘good time’ forecasts of tourism figures always fall short, well short in some cases. (blame the post Sept 11 world attitude perhaps for Japan and Korea).
Japanese newspapers are publicizing the mediocre economic histories of World Cup hosts. Very little economic growth accompanies the cup. Almost every benefit—more soccer tourists, more TV purchases—is offset by fewer business travelers and less book buying by all those TV-watchers. The United States expected a $4 billion boost from the 1994 cup but took a $4 billion loss instead, according to one study.
Published: June 29, 2002
As the World Cup, the world’s most heavily watched sporting event, closes Sunday hopes that it would help reinvigorate the Japanese economy failed to come true.
There were corporate and government winners and losers, of course. Among the winners were agile companies with enough goods on hand to ride a fad. As Japan’s team inspired the nation, for instance, lines 100 yards long formed at a Tokyo sporting goods store stocked with the coveted authentic Japan team shirts, with fans desperate to surrender $125 for an Adidas team shirt.
After selling more than 600,000 team jerseys and 1.5 million soccer balls, Christophe Bezu, the president of Adidas Japan, forecast that the World Cup was propelling Japan into second place, after the United States, as a sporting goods market for the German company. ”This has been a very successful World Cup,” he said.
Let’s just be careful about keeping a perspective on just WHO will economically benefit.
Losers were companies and government officials that put too much stock in pie-in-the-sky estimates that the World Cup would generate $9 billion worth of economic activity for Korea and $26 billion for Japan, the co-hosts.
Economists from outside the region say that given the economic activity displaced by the World Cup and the stadium construction bills, the additional economic benefit could be close to zero, or even negative.
So – - please, when you throw around the figures of economic benefit -
-please, stipulate whether that is before or after ‘costs’ and ‘economic displaced activity’ is taken into account,
-and, as to whether the real beneficiaries are German merchandise companies, German and Sth Korean and Japanese TV manufacturers,
-and, as to whether the tourist figures met original forecasts, or, were also cut once the tourney was under way, such as the Koreans who cut inititial forecasts for 330,000 to 66,000.
-and whether that accounts for a whole bunch of largely un-needed, under used debt ridden stadia that while providing short term benefit during construction phase, leave a far less savoury after taste.
-Japan estimated $26B, but, in reality is was more like $4B.
and Sth Korea – I stress – that they have the appropriate industries to benefit, we don’t make nearly enough wide screen tvs, 3G mobile handsets, etc etc.
According to the AP report, South Korea estimated the World Cup brought the nation about $4.1 billion in direct economic benefits in 2002 from increased consumer spending, which accounted for about 0.74 per cent of the country’s GDP in 2001.
Indirect economic benefits were estimated at $15.1 billion as the World Cup improved the image of South Korea and its companies, the government said.
Visitors who funneled through Seoul’s $5 billion airport passed an array of 103 high-definition televisions made in Korea and rental counters offering the latest generation of Korean-made cellphones.
Where, oh where, are the Australian made equivalents? Are we planning on an techno industrial manufacturing revolution between now and then, or, will visitors to Australia be bombarded with ‘yellowcake’, and iron ore, and NW Shelf natural gas (oh, hang on, we’ve already sold all of that overseas!!!).
When the numbers are added up, South Korea may have received only 450,000 foreign visitors in June, near last June’s level but about a third less than the 640,000 expected. Despite the huge rallies of millions of soccer fans in Seoul, downtown hotel occupancies and duty-free store sales were down about 20 percent from normal.
The dearth of foreigners resulted in rows of empty seats at many early games. At least 94 percent of the 3.15 million seats were sold, but many were sold to foreign soccer associations that failed to find fans who wanted to travel to Korea or Japan, Mr. Zen-Ruffinen said. Let’s hope we offer a more attractive travel proposition – - – depending whether anyone CAN actually still afford to travel by plane based on cost of fuel, come 2018.
- – -could it be said that hosting a FIFA WC in Australia might actually cripple our economy if NOT done right. THat the increase in consumer spending will spiral our trade deficit and inflation our of control and plummet us into a 10 year depression.
I just don’t see the numbers necessarily stacking up. And all I have seen via investigations are that up front people are bombarded with ‘pie in the sky’ numbers with little substantive support.
Michael C said | June 11th 2008 @ 1:18pm | Report comment
So –
to sum up.
A country with developing consumer manufacturing industry such as South Korea was able to benefit.
Japan, a small benefit, missing the $26B forecast mark by more than $20B!!!
Tourism not the massive driver anticipated.
Main economic activity via building things (so, if we get it, let’s build really useful items)
………………………………… and consumer spending (oh dear……I think we’re in trouble on this one)
I don’t see that we are the right type of country with the right type of economy geared to ACTUALLY take advantage of such an event. Gee, y’know, just as Communism was designed for an industrialised nation like Germany AND NOT for an agrarian nation like Russia – - and so, it failed to really take off – - I believe that Australia is the Russia to the FIFA WC as the communism. JUST NOT MEANT TO BE.
Far, far better – I believe – to focus more fully on the Asian confederation scene. Build the regional relationships.
And please, refrain from inferring that any one sceptical is un Australian, or anti Australian. Let’s actually start seeing some detail on this,…..
…because, I don’t really care about simply using Australian $$$$ to further inflate the Addidas, Loewe, LG and Hyundai bottom lines…….
…..maybe we can use the event to promote 6 cylinder hybrid cars………actually, I reckon they will either sink or swim totally independant of a FIFA WC.
Michael C said | June 11th 2008 @ 2:05pm | Report comment
Dave -
just as McDonalds is the culinary McDonalds of Victoria, so too is the Soccer the sporting McDonalds aiming to gain a dominance over the Victorian market…..
….undoubtedly, AFL is the Olleys Trolley of Victoria!!!!
Towser said | June 11th 2008 @ 2:24pm | Report comment
Michael C
Have directed a post to you with links for your & others edification. Has disappeared ,hopefully only for a while.
Michael C said | June 11th 2008 @ 2:31pm | Report comment
btw -
Dave – -
http://news.theage.com.au/sport/foreigners-have-hurt-england-epl-boss-20080611-2ory.html
English Premier League chairman Sir David Richards has said too many foreign players in English clubs have damaged the England national team.
ah, the calamity. We all know it, it’s been spoken of enough.
Why can’t they – - FOR ENGLANDS sake – - just let the EPL and the clubs be more English, more local – - this wretched ‘globalised’ labour market and globalised attitude has elevated clubs above country. Similar to globalised corporations owing no national allegiance and being more powerful than Governments.
The ugly nature of their human production line is illustrated :
“We’ve been a bit lazy in the Premier League over the years. We created a system of academies and every club spends about three million pounds a year developing young players. But it hasn’t worked, because the availability for us to go out and buy the best stars is an easy thing.
“Anybody who comes into the league needs to stay in it, so needs to buy the best stars. We pick kids up at eight years old, we send them to the academy, then at 16 we make them a student, then at 18 we say they haven’t made it.”
and then follows the usual spin doctoring and vested interests and butt covering :
Richards’ comments contradict the line insisted upon by the clubs and by the league’s chief executive, Richard Scudamore, that the preponderance of overseas players was not responsible for England’s failure to qualify for the European Championship.
In response to Richards’ words, the Premier League said: “These comments do not represent the collective view of the Premier League.”
Still according to the Guardian, Richards later did not deny he had made the comments but claimed that what he had said was not quite what he had meant.
Sometimes – - sometimes, I’m just quite happy to know that no matter what the rest of the world does – - we have a beaut little game down here that keeps many of us quite nicely entertained for 6 or so months a year – - and, the rest of the world can go and do what they want, and it doesn’t really impact on us.
There’s those who claim that everything needs to engage in the global economy….but, the reality is not necessarily so…..and, on a case by case basis it MIGHT just be appropriate to ask “Do we really have to?”
btw – I eagerly await your contribution with links.
Dave said | June 11th 2008 @ 3:19pm | Report comment
Michael C
So this is what the AFL wants??? Sth Africans, Islanders, New Zealanders etc?? Why do other codes celebrate the diversity in their game but football cannot? More later.
True Tah said | June 11th 2008 @ 3:23pm | Report comment
Dave,
I thought the diversity in soccer was celebrated at the World Cup?
Michael C said | June 11th 2008 @ 3:37pm | Report comment
Dave -
ah, exactly – - it’s where you see what we AFL supporters are struggling with.
It’s a conundrum,
and, as someone once asked – can we have our cake and eat it too…..and not spoil it.
And, in all likelihood, by virtue of being a single nation professional code – - most likely, we can, for some period of time.
The fear (completely unfounded, some may say) is that perhaps a semi-pro league evolves in the US – and one day we wake up to find that like Matt King or Nathan Burns that they have packed their bags and headed OS in the midst of their domestic career – - and, whether for just more money, or the prestige, or greater opportunity – -it still deminishes the local competition into the ‘feeder league’ status.
because, suddenly, you wake up and realise that you are just part of that global McDonalds like chain.
- – - –
I haven’t said soccer can’t celebrate its diversity. However, that doesn’t change that the ‘world game’ is so wide spread, and so dominant, and especially in many countries it IS so dominant – as to provide an almost sporting monoculture – - diverse nations, single game. It’s good and bad. It limits the ‘expression’ within the parameters of the game.
It’s a bit like a discussion once upon a time on the SMH flog – - that, ultimately, there’s only so many ways to ride an elephant, at the end of the day, you can wear different uniforms, attempt to adopt some different gestures, but, ultimately it’s about an elephant and the rider and there’s really only so much scope for diversity.
If the entire world took up elephant riding, then, with the governing body disallowing the entry of horses, cattle, etc – - then, we rigidly find only a single sporting outlook pervading.
All sports fans should hope that Australia retains a true and dynamic sporting diversity for as long as possible.
And, diversity of participants – - always to be celebrated – - such as anytime Iran plays Iraq in soccer or India plays Pakistan in cricket or Australia plays NZ in netball or RU – - – when ‘mortal enemies’ come together on a playing field/arena/court……’tis to be celebrated.
I’ve not suggested otherwise.
Towser said | June 11th 2008 @ 4:20pm | Report comment
Michael C
How come your links & others come up & mine dont?
Is there a knack to putting on links?
Although I knew what I was searching for it still takes time to get the right articles to show what your trying to indicate rather than ramble on.
Very frustrating as a little edification can change the course of a thread.
Michael C said | June 11th 2008 @ 4:29pm | Report comment
Towser -
not too many is about the best I can think of.
Rambling…..ah….nuth’n wrong with a good bit of waffle!!!!!
anyway – - I’m assuming your responding re the McDonalds concept, I’ll divert just briefly:
general question:
Do you accept any of my reservations around the real benefit of hosting a FIFA WC?
Do you accept that there is reason to have a HEALTHY scepticism?
, because to me, it appears the Salesmen are out in force – - and, certain countries and economies will be in a better position than others to benefit. OR – - the manner in which a specific nation might leverage off the hosting MUST be properly assessed and planned and NOT just left to chance. I just want to be sure of the interests that the ’sales people’ are actually serving.
It will be interesting to see how Sth Africa progresses as a relatively isolated country, although larger population base, and part of a far more vast continent.
Towser said | June 11th 2008 @ 4:50pm | Report comment
MIchael C
Too many is probably the answer. I did have a few.
Theres always reservations about anything. If its cost that concerns, then until you see what the heck is going on with the bid & as yet I’ve no knowledge of any detail, its speculation.
I prefer to see some cards on the table before committing myself in this respect.
If your wanting to know how I see it from a football fans perspective I cant wait to see the tournament in the country I live in purely from the perspective of seeing some of the top football teams & players on my doorstep.
Will it have long term benefits. It should if a government is smart enough to capitalise on the number of overseas visitors floating around the country in terms of what they take back to their countries regarding their visit.
Personally I dont see any long term benefit to football.
The World Cup is an event of major proportions no more no less than the Olympics.
When the dust settles we still have to keep improving the A-League & the Socceroos still have to qualify through Asia. Nuts & bolts are what counts not the fairy on top of the Xmas tree.
Sceptical . I’m sceptical by nature. Healthy scepticism is fine as long as thats exactly what it is & has no ulterior motive involved in its purpose. In that sense I agree nothing must be left to chance in determining the overall benefits. Any government who plunges headlong into any major venture without thinking out the long term consequences will find that it comes back to bite them on the bum electorally.
Millster said | June 11th 2008 @ 4:52pm | Report comment
MC –
My other passion is music, and in particular blues and jazz. In that sphere, the legendary guitarist BB King was once quoted as saying “there is only one song in the world, what matters is how it is played”
I am recounting this to put a counter-point to your mono-culture argument about football. Taken to its extreme, the 2 Rugby codes, football and AFL are not that different from each other, or for that matter from field and ice hockey, lacrosse, and a bunch of other sports. Ball, teams, goals… same kind of idea. So that is one extreme of what you are saying.
At the other is the reality that international sports like football and to a lesser extent Rugby Union can be a reflection of a distinct national psyche, and also of long-ingrained mental and physical characteristics. In football you can describe quite easily the British style, the mediterranean (Italian/Spanish/French) style, the eastern european style and the african style just to name a few. in RU as well, each major nation has its signature style – most notably perhaps my beloved French.
So I cannot follow that global games are a mono-culture. I would have thought the opposite – that codes played in limited geographic spheres and with players drawn form one coutry or region would have had less diversity across all dimensions.
Just taking another angle. As you know I like AFL as a whole for what it offers to the ‘Aussie’ cultural identity. But within the game of AFL I think there is far less cultural diversity – including that reflected in team styles of play, tactics, etc – than there is in football.
PS: I think you know that your economic analysis above is significantly pessimistic. For one it ignores the multiplier effect, for two it ignores that the majority of tourism revenues are service rather than product related (and therefore have positive balance-of-trade impacts), and third as I’ve written before it completely ignores a whole lot of far more important unquantifiable impacts of hosting such unique world-leading events and presenting oneself to the world.
Michael C said | June 11th 2008 @ 5:09pm | Report comment
Millster -
it seems to me that we’d have to trade awfully heavily off the service and hospitality industries – - however, in other examples the tourism figures floated initially didn’t always realise actuality with expectation. And, who knows what state international aviation might be in 10-15 years time – - hopefully still reasonably economical with regards to ‘av-gas’! And I recognise that the aviation and tourism market took a hit immediately following Sept 11, so, 2002 is not the perfect comparison.
Sth Africa will be telling. It’s quite one thing for the people of the world (of soccer) to descend on Germany, quite another to make their way down to Sth Africa and more so down to Australia.
Multiplier effect – -however, 10 * 0 = 0.
How come tourism to Sydney is stagnating, do they need the Olympics again? Lara Bingle crashed. How do we sell Sydney and Australia (although, I head Melbourne was still doing quite well).
The intangibles such as national pride etc, they’re all well and good, but, primarily, that wins someone an election and allows them to trade off the uphoria of the event rather than the policies of the day……just as Safeway/Woolies announced their ‘lamb’ issue on the Friday leading up to QB long weekend (even though they knew about it for 2 wks) – - likewise, I reckon there’d be a whole raft of ‘bad news’ announcements made amongst the deafening roar of the ‘party’ of the WC!!!! (call me a rampant cynic if you will).
- – - –
AFL, as an example – - offers diversity of a different kind. You’re talking very much the ethnicity culture. I’m talking more a sporting culture, and, that importantly can be centred around the culture driven rule set for example.
And, the simple aspect is that while soccer, and ruggers, and gaelic and footy etc may look in some respect similar, a bunch of folk chasing a ball – - – an element of diversity at least appears thus -
the off-side codes vs the non off-side codes (let’s always hope that there remains a diversity, limited though that it is at present)
the goal scoring codes vs the ‘touchdown/try’ codes
the kicking codes vs the handling codes
etc,
it’s this sort of diversity that I regard as more important, as, the ability for example of a single nation presently to impact the official FIFA rules is very limited.
ON the other extreme, Australia can do as they wish with the Aust Footy rules.
In the middle, some codes are more dynamic than others.
Where do the ideas, the new ideas, get born, get tried, evolve.
The business world teaches us that often the larger corporations suffer by being a little inflexible, and it’s the dynamic ‘little players’ who find their niche, and can thrive………I hope the AFL retains just a niche, and can continue to thrive via being dynamic.
I recognise soccer as being huge, a little inflexible, and sometimes a little devoid of new ideas (at very least, ones that WILL actually be put in practice – - it just seems too big and therefore almost as politically weighted down as the UN!!).
So – while the soccer globa participation is anything but a ‘mono-culture’, the game it self is a sporting mono-culture.
Perhaps, like the world seed bank doomsday vault, we need a similar one for sports equipment!
cheers
Dave said | June 11th 2008 @ 5:11pm | Report comment
Michael C
What we have in Victoria is exactly what you complain about football in the rest of the world. We have a code so dominant, so all encopmassing that it virtually squeezes the life out of other sports trying to gain a foothold. The media here is obsessed by AFL and page after page after page is devoted to it in the papers, media time etc. Where is the diversity? Oh ok RL can half half a page and world football half and netball etc etc. There is no real choice but you dont see it because you are a supporter. Look from the other side of the fence and you will see what other sporting codes are up against. Is it fair? Does it matter? Was there any real choice apart from AFL (l argue no)? You argue it is the most popular, has the biggest crowds etc and so it therefore deserves its position. It is unique (no one denies this) and therefore is a true societal reflection of the region we live in…however football has done the same just on a much bigger scale. It is dominant because it has the media attention, biggest crowds etc but around the world. You deride football because it is so successful but on the other hand cannot see that exactly the same thing has happened here, just in a smaller region. I dont want AFL to cease having its effect on the population here but what l say is that football and other codes should have the right to stand up and enjoy some of the cake. That the small fluff pice in todays Herald Sun is but an aberration and certainly not reflective of the papers views. Do we need to list all the AFL fluff pieces that are thrown at us endlessly?
You are right that AFL folk cant have their cake and eat it. Do you want to have the international attention so many crave…do you want to take over other non AFL regions because you have the most money (dont matter what the locals think)…do you want to strip away players from other leagues (Gaelic) leaving their code depleted…do you want to have an international tournament where there is real competition and good quality…or are you happy with your own little lot (world terms) and remain outside the influence of the world? What is it?
World football and the McDonalds comparison…
All that is the same is the game played on the field. Watch a game from Rio in Brazil and tell me it is identical to a game played by the English team, copare the passing game of the Japanese with the power of Ghana’s national team, the efficiency of Germany with the brilliant individuals from Argentina, the determination of the Scots vs the flair of the Mexicans and so on. All that is distinctive about a society is reflected in their football teams. Where is such diversity in the AFL comp? Ah the indigenous players and rightly so they are celebrated but…in world football we are not able to celebrate such diversity because all the players use the same ball and play on a rectangular field???
The Bolivians play home games at 2,000m, the Saudis in 40Degree C heat, the Russians in the snow, the Moroccans on bare dry pitches, the English on bowling greens, the Scots in hail, the Indonesians in monsoons etc.
Yes Football to an extent is a victim of its own popularity. It has players from all corners of the globe wanting to make it to the top and to do so they must play in the best leagues and so Europe is the mecca. It has changed the nature of club football but as yet not national team football. Is it good or is it bad or is it just a refection of the world we live in…me thinks the latter. More than any other sport around the world football has the ability to in huge numbers, unite and also to divide, to bring joy and despair…
No one is asking for other codes to close shop and die, rather what you want for the indigenous codes is what we already have. What you ask of football is to stop encroaching on the indigenous codes turf but in the same breath want your code to expand and take new territories and have an international presence etc…and why? We all know why!
Yes celebrate the local game for thats what it is. But also celebrate the game that most of the world enjoys for its diversity and color and skill and moments of brilliance as well as yes, like all sports, its moments of tedium.
Redb said | June 11th 2008 @ 5:58pm | Report comment
Dave,
Your passion is tops, a really good and thoughtful post.
The problem as I see it is that it is unfair to compare AFL which has grown from an isolated part of the world with a small population to Soccer which has benefited from large populations migrating to other parts of the world, in terms of a turf war. Its not a level playing field to begin with.
Many countries only play soccer – what’s wrong with introducing another football code? Soccer is played in Australia as welll as the rugbies. Australia along with the US, Canada and NZ remain unique for the multi football code universe they live on where soccer does not dominate.
Soccer has a few small mountains to climb, AFL has moon leaps – a little balance. yes Melbourne is AFL dominated, so to is Italy, Brazil, Germany, Argentina, Japan,etc for soccer.
So if Melbourne is swimming upstream in a world dominated by the ‘global game’ – it’s certainly not the end of the world for diversification. Pockets of obsession makes the world a more interesting place at times.
Redb
Koala Bear said | June 11th 2008 @ 6:05pm | Report comment
Michael C,
I had to go out for awhile…. Now let me just say first of all I said $27B injected into the economy not a net profit. As Frank Lowy and Tim Harcourt of Austrade corp have continually said an injection of $27b into the economies I would appreciate if you don’t misrepresent me in my comments but state what I write in future.. That said, Harcourt (btw a Marn Grook advocate) staging the big events have on going benefits that can’t be measured as I outline in several posts to Redb; you would have read them I am sure, as you don’t miss anything ..
We have a number of stadia in place, that will do the job. Until a detailed analysis is done, we will not know what extra stadia is needed to be built. But you can rest assure, the monies that was spent in Korea/Japan and in Sth Africa will not reach that sort of spending, as we have the Venue for the Final in ANZ. The Venue for the Semis in the MCG and TD in place, and the venues for the quarter finals; maybe Suncorp and SFC. So we are not looking at building stadia to the capacities of 80k only refurbishing Stadia to bring them up to standard of 40K; a big difference. So therefore, if the net profit is only $6b so well and good, and add to that the value of the stadiums that have been refurbished, and one or two new built in the southern states of SA and WA as added value.
We now at last, we will have a platform for the 3 codes to work with year round for the growth and expansion of the 3 rectangle Football codes.. That’s fine with me, and if Marn Grook do not want to be part of it in anyway or form say on the Gold Coast, West Sydney, Tasmania, and West Australia.. That’s also fine with me..
~~~~~~~
KB
Midfielder said | June 11th 2008 @ 6:35pm | Report comment
Hope you guys don’t mind if I head back to the topic.
The ACL & Asian Cup and so on will be interesting in the future development of the game.
Just for the record these are the teams,
West Asia, I think this means oil connections
Bahrain Iraq Jordan Kuwait Lebanon Oman Palestine Qatar Saudi Arabia Syria United Arab Emirates Yemen
East Asia, read heaps big dollars.
China PR Chinese Taipei DPR Korea Guam Hong Kong Japan Korea Republic Macau Mongolia
Central & South Asia, create good relationships in areas many parts of the west need good relations with.
Afghanistan Bangladesh Bhutan India IR Iran Kyrgyzstan Maldives Republic Nepal Pakistan Sri Lanka Tajikistan Turkmenistan Uzbekistan
Asean, see good for friendly neighbours,
Australia Brunei Darussalam Cambodia Indonesia Laos Malaysia Myanmar Philippines Singapore Thailand Timor Leste Vietnam
Have a visit if you like to the AFC homepage simply google in Asian Football Confredation.
For all its faults of which there are many, nothing comes close in any other code, to this Asian connection.
Dave said | June 11th 2008 @ 7:42pm | Report comment
Redb
And you know that l agree with most of what you say. It is not a fair comparison between AFL and football. However from the perspective of a non AFL person in Melb there always seems to be a battle for some recognition and a (small) piece of the cake. AFL is so far ahead here that the others are just battling for the scraps. It seems incongruous that outside of the southern and western states that football is one of the big boys. That is the frustration l guess. In terms of diversification l couldn’t believe that any serious sports fan would want any code to disappear, l certainly dont (my brother and his family are all Essendon members!!!). My football playing and loving son will want to watch any Essendon game on TV and still punches the couch as the goals go flying in…for the opposition
.
Anyway enough of the ramble and the good thing about a site like the Roar is at least you can have a whinge and occassionally someone may listen
Dave said | June 11th 2008 @ 7:52pm | Report comment
Midfielder
In terms of the ACL l am really looking forward to the reorganisation of the comp. with additional prizemoney etc. The fact that Adelaide have done so well under the current set up is truly amazing. Even MV finished 2nd in their group and under the proposed new system would have gone through. That last game against the Thais’ could have been a cracker but due to the top team only progressing was a fizzer. The tournaments standing can only grow and even though CCM are in NSW l will have a soft spot for the club (half the team are ex MV anyway
) when they do battle in the ACL next year.
The future for the HAL clubs is certainly Asian and l for one cant wait.
Michael C said | June 11th 2008 @ 8:16pm | Report comment
Dave -
a bit harsh,
soccer and rugby have been in Melbourne a whole lot longer than probably 90% of soccer cities in the world have had any decent footballing competition.
Are the AFL folk the obsessed ones? or the soccer folk who seem to want to wipe out any and all opposition and seem unhappy unless they are number 1 in every market?
You seem to forget the examples of AFL clubs owning and running NSL teams, and therefore promoting soccer potentially to an AFL audience.
You seem to forget how seemlessly is handled a RU test this Saturday night for example at TD, with AFL on Friday and Sunday at the same venue – -no whinging of raining on parades or the like – - perhaps we’re passionate and obsessed, but, we’ve also put up with the BEST of what the other codes can provide for quite some time -
i.e. RU WC tests, RU bledisloe cup etc tests, RL SoO, RL double premiers, FIFA WC qualifiers, Olympic ‘football’, exhibition matches with Man Utd, Juventus, Greece vs Aust etc – - and, quite often they draw good crowds – - and we are the city with the best supported and member ‘populated’ HAL club – - in fact I think Storm has more members than any other NRL club – - and, none of that has dented the AFL………………..
…………………so, please, do tell just how insular, myopic, single minded we are. Btw – the soccer is comfortably getting 2 pages – - and that’s separate to the page upon which the scores are – - and, I tell you what, you’ll struggle to find AFL round of scores in a paper anywhere around the world – - and yet, in the H-S you’ll find scores from most the major o-s soccer leagues and tournaments.
So – I think you’re being way too harsh – - maybe in previous generations – - I can’t speak for Melbourne prior to moving from the bush in ‘89. I can’t speak for generations of Australians/Victorians, only for Danish immigrants in the ’50s.
Michael C said | June 11th 2008 @ 8:23pm | Report comment
KB -
yep – - $27 billion injection – - – and what will the return on investment be?
As I’ve said, if there’s big infrastructure spending – - then, give us good things.
The Japanese seemed to go over the top on the building for building sake.
If we can do it on the ‘cheap’, all well and good. That should maximise the benefits, for everyone.
Spending money just for spendings sake isn’t a good thing.
So – forgive me for not signing on the bottom line just yet,
(it’s no good Frank Lowy’s name – because he’s the ultimate impatient salesman of this notion, he’s stated that he’s not interested in 2022, it’s 2018, for HIM, ‘cos he’s not willing to gamble on still being kicking around in 2022. Fair enough, so, he’ll certainly endeavour to present the best possible scenarios – - a bit like some of the Japanese projections perhaps.)
Dave said | June 11th 2008 @ 8:53pm | Report comment
Michael C
“Are the AFL folk the obsessed ones? or the soccer folk who seem to want to wipe out any and all opposition and seem unhappy unless they are number 1 in every market?”
No one has suggested football will be No 1 in Melb. Who wants to wipe out all opposition? Slightly over the top reaction me thinks.
Football is struggling to gain a solid foothold in the Melb professional sporting landscape and is certainly swimming up stream. You have missed my point re AFL expansion which you support but football expansion is evil and trying to kills the local games. Has the AFL asked RL heartland Western Sydney if is ok to take over their turf? No of course not…so its ok for some…
Oh and the altruistic AFL clubs setting up football spin offs just to promote a rival code yeahhh sure…nothing about trying to make a quick buck???
Yes Melb can hold a variet of sporting contests (l have attended many) as any other major city around the world can…still trying to find some column inches on the RU test this week…who are the Aussies playing again?
Melb has a tremendous sporting reputation, no question. Sydney has AFL, RL club, country and SOO, RU club, S14 and internationals, football club and internationals, cricket, FIFA congress etc. So what is your point? Each has their own Major Event Corps to entice big sporting events to the city…to gain pretige, dollars, kudos etc.
Not sure which paper football is getting 2 pages coverage or do you mean 2 pages in total for the week?
Michael C said | June 11th 2008 @ 9:26pm | Report comment
Dave -
ideally the printed newspaper is of less relevance in this modern era than ever before – - for those who need to know about the RU test, they know where to find out about it.
Invariably – and this is the good thing about them – the RU ‘crowd’ seems to travel. These matches are ‘good’.
Soccer is doing quite nicely in Melbourne is it not? By the available domestic soccer standards, the Knights, South Melb Hellas, etc all did well enough – - it’s unfair to blame AFL/VFL in Melbourne for the state of soccer – - what was the reason in the rest of the country? And, by the new HAL standards, Melbourne is the shining light within the entire country – - don’t go over blaming Melbournians and the AFL. What’s keeping crowd averages in Sydney and Brisbane around the 15K mark year on year – - no real growth other than a little fattening of crowds for the highly successful seasons of CCM and NJs. Perth, perhaps too much opposition from the Force?? Don’t just blame footy and go trying to make us feel guilty
MVFC – biggest crowds and highest membership, 1 premiership already……….and, as a certain someone has tried to argue, already the 8 th biggest football club in Melbourne (by some rubbery measures and requiring a few crazy assumptions).
At one point in time people thought you could have wonderful multi faceted club organisations, eg Collingwood Football, Soccer and Basketball Club – - and ensure nice efficiencies of scale and synergies of training facilities etc – - maybe a quick buck or two, who doesn’t seek that (hardly a crime). Alas, the old NSL was a basket case. And, sadly, so too is the NBL!!!
anyway – - are you saying, that, with over 200 nations (more than the UN) – - that, you still get annoyed that one little village of indomitable Gauls hold out the Roman legions!!!! We have our druid, Demetrifix, who sees over us, we perhaps focus too much on the seemingly vital statistics, maybe we’re a little dogmatix, but, ……..
Midfielder said | June 11th 2008 @ 10:46pm | Report comment
Football Bloggers
Further to my post of 6 June @ 2:39 please add.
Here is some more
Taken from Australian Government site.
Believe it or not. put the h t and w thing at the start and a gov etc otherwise article can take forever to appear for the link if in any doubt.
austrade. gov. …….. au/socceroos-world-cup-qualifiers-to-help-middle-east-discover-australian-business-potential/default.aspx
Socceroos world cup qualifiers to help Middle East discover Australian business potential
Austrade media releaseWednesday 4 June, 2008
Football Federation Australia (FFA) and the Australian Trade Commission (Austrade) will help link Australian companies to the rapidly growing business potential of the Gulf region through a series of business breakfasts held to co-incide with the Socceroos world cup campaign qualifying games against Iraq in Dubai this Saturday (7 June) and Qatar in Doha (14 June).
To capitalise on the profile of the Socceroos’ qualifiers, events will be held in Abu Dhabi with the support of Australian Business Group on the 9th, Dubai on the 10th aided by Australian Business Chamber, and on June 12th in Doha, supported by the Australia-New Zealand Business Group.
Austrade’s Dubai-based Trade Commissioner James Wyndham said the Socceroos campaign would capture the attention of the expatriate and business community in the UAE and Qatar.
“There are close to 20,000 Australian expatriates in the UAE, compared to just over 3,000 six years ago. Trade is also rapidly increasing. In 2006-07 Australia’s exports to the United Arab Emirates grew by a staggering 45%, with total two-way merchandise trade expanding by almost 70%. Australian construction expertise, food, fashion, services, and a wide range of products are increasingly in demand,” Mr Wyndham said.
“Around 100 business people are expected at each function. Austrade and the Australian Embassy in Abu Dhabi helped connect the FFA to local business groups. Austrade is keen to continue working with the FFA to use the platform of the football as a means to build the profile of Australian companies and generate international business opportunities for Australia,” Mr Wyndham said.
Football Federation Australia’s Head of Corporate and Public Affairs Bonita Mersiades said football is uniquely placed to help Australian businesses integrate into the rapidly expanding economies of Asia and the Middle East.
“Building links for the international business community through football also helps repay the Australian Government’s investment in developing the game, and supports our goal to host the 2018 FIFA World Cup,” Ms Mersiades said.
Austrade’s Chief Economist Tim Harcourt said the world game’s popularity and Australia’s recent rise to greater prominence in football assisted by the World Cup success and high profile marquee players like Harry Kewell, offered outstanding potential to promote Australian business strengths in Asia, the Gulf region and beyond.
“Australia has more trade engagement in the nations that make up the Asian Football Confederation than anywhere else,” Mr Harcourt said.
“The top ranked Asian Football Confederation nations accounted for nearly $76 billion in exports compared to just over $16 billion of the top ranked FIFA nations.
Mr Harcourt said strong people-to-people and cultural ties are an important part of the business potential of Football.
“The migrant community has been the backbone of the game in Australia and according to Austrade research they have also been the backbone of the Australian exporter community,” Mr Harcourt said.
“Exporting companies are more likely to be started by immigrants – think Bing Lee, Crazy Johns, and Frank Lowy himself – with many having close ties to football too,” Mr Harcourt said.
Bonita Mersiades (FFA), Tim Harcourt and James Wyndham (Austrade), are available for media interviews.
ENDS
Media contact
David Varga
Mob: +61 434 567 673
For further news and information from the Australian Trade Commission (Austrade) visit http://www.austrade.gov.au/mediacentre.
Midfielder said | June 12th 2008 @ 12:10am | Report comment
Stay with me here guys, from a regular football chant to the Australian media, and away we go, all in one loud voice. Note every line is yelled by the starter that’s me and you all have to yell back each line. OK we are away
Everywhere we go
People want to know
Who we are
Where do we come from
Shall we tell them
Clap clap
Clap Clap Clap
Pick a teams name
Then to insult the other fans
Can you hear the
Other side sing
No NOOOOOOOO
We can’t hear a Fing thing
This is strange midfielder are you feeling OK.
Well yes in relation to my previous post about Austrade,
Can you hear the media sing
No …………. NOOOOOOOOOOOO
If this was RL or AFL, it would be lead news stories never mind sports news.
BUT CAN YOU HEAR THE MEDIA SING
No …….. NOOOOOOOOOOO
No I can’t hear a f…….ing thing
Wonder why ? ? ! !
Michael C said | June 12th 2008 @ 6:28am | Report comment
Midfielder -
ah, no, maybe NRL, but, AFL media, they still criticise the overseas exhibition matches as a waste of time end of season jaunt, they still criticise the International Rules series as a useless bastardisation of the game – despite the fact that fans rock up in large numbers and JUST ENJOY. The AFL media was recalcitrant in their coverage of the drugs in sport issue. The AFL media is always negative about AFL State of Origin matches and more so the Dream Team game – - because, it only threatens injury and players X, Y and Z aren’t playing (glass half empty mentality).
The AFL media is generally too negatively geared – - and, it really, really annoys me. And, I think Redb too – - which is why we often mention that while soccer and nrl only get a limited amount of coverage – - that the soccer and nrl stories are always pretty banal positive fluff pieces. (these are separate to the general news section coverage of crowd strife and flares etc)
btw – interesting to hear from the Office of Police Integrity hearings that there was a fight at the footy last month – - involving 2 policemen, one loyal to a police officer ‘of interest’ and one NOT.
Koala Bear said | June 12th 2008 @ 9:03am | Report comment
austrade. gov. …….. au/socceroos-world-cup-qualifiers-to-help-middle-east-discover-australian-business-potential/default.aspx
Midfielder,
this is precisely what I have been banging on about… What Football brings to the nation and why it is imperative we land the 2018 FIFA world cup.. Austrade are doing a fantastic job in the Asian region and can do even better, if the big blockbuster events come to town.. Tim Harcourt has continually reiterated, that the on going benefits in staging the WC event are massive, and where the major business deals are done at the final stages of the World Cup in the corporate boxes and functions that are connected with the event, as all the major players are together wheeling and dealing says Tim Harcourt of Austrade … good article..
~~~~~~~~
KB
jimbo said | June 12th 2008 @ 10:27am | Report comment
KB,
more importantly and first step should be to secure the Asian Cup rights for 2011.
On those figures, even a modest 10-20% increase in Asian trade from hosting the Asian Cup would result in a 8-15 Billion dollar windfall for Australia in increased exports.
The Asian Champions League is also important for getting your hands dirty in Asia. The FFA and the Federal Trade people should support AU in their ACL bid in whatever way they can.
The SydneyFC v Urawa game had a television audience of 130 million across Asia.
The FFA should also look at other incentives for teams that reach the ACL, such as increasing the number of Marquee players to 3 or 4 or giving them a “Salary Cap Bonus” of say $1M so they can recruit some star or guest players to improve their chances and their appeal in Asia.
If AU were to go on and win the ACL, there would be some tangible benefits for the club, the A-League, FFA and Australian exporters.
Midfielder said | June 12th 2008 @ 10:55am | Report comment
KB
Your Tim Harcourt ……… thing here is a 9 july 2007 release to support your post
Football Fever: the economic benefits of the Socceroos
Tim Harcourt
Chief Economist
Australian Trade Commission
Sydney
Email: tim.harcourt@austrade.gov.au
9 July 2007
The Socceroos may have had a scare against Oman but we’re back on track for the Asia Cup. It is great that the Socceroos now get to test themselves regularly against substantial competition. Going to the World Cup through Asia is also important in giving our team some rigorous competition. In the past we would play the minnows of Oceania but then would have to play a major South American team to qualify which was hardly ideal preparation.
However, there are also economic benefits to playing in Asia as well. In a speech presented at the Lowy Institute’s conference in 2005 on Football Diplomacy last year, I found that Australia has more trade engagement in the nations that make up the Asian Football Confederation than anywhere else. For instance, the research found that the top ranked AFC nations accounted for around of $42 billion in exports compared to $13.6 billion of the top ranked FIFA nations. Football is also the ideal sport to encourage trade links with given our proximity to Asia and the strong links between football support and Australia’s own exporter demographics.
So what can we do? In sports like Rugby and Cricket we have the Bledisloe Cup and the Ashes, so why not start a tradition for football matches with our Asian neighbours. Why not a Supachai-Fischer Cup when we play Thailand? The Cup could take the names of the former Thailand Prime Minister and World Trade Organisation Director-General, Dr Supachai Panitchpakdi and former Australian Deputy Prime Minister, Tim Fischer. After all, Dr Supachai has been a long-standing supporter of Australia in international forums such as APEC and Tim Fischer is well known for his enthusiasm for Thai-Australian relations. And how about something with Japan, or China and Korea? Even outside Asia, why don’t we have a special football tournament with Turkey and New Zealand in honour of Anzac Day?
Another thing we could do is establish a Football Business Club Australia to help leverage our football links in terms of trade and investment in Asia and at the World Cup. Business Networking – or ‘the power of schmooze’ can have also sorts of possibilities on and off the field. For example, as a result of the Lowy Conference last year, Austrade also helped Sydney FC with some business ties in Japan during their Asian Clubs championships last year.
So good luck you mighty Socceroos and let’s hope that your journey through to the Asian Cup Final will help build stronger ties between Asia and Australia in both trade and football.
*Tim Harcourt is chief economist at Austrade and a Socceroos fanatic. He watches Sydney FC at home and supports Liverpool and Roma away.
Michael C said | June 12th 2008 @ 11:02am | Report comment
Jimbo -
agree re-Asian Cup – - I’ve twice had a go and given up replying this morning where everything in my mind was pointing to this.
However – - on the most recent Asian Cup – held across 4 nations, and with some games attracting only 500 crowds – - I just wonder – - is there capacity to have some games sent out to regional areas – similar to how I think Eng played Zimbabwe in Ballarat or Bendigo or something like that in the ICC WC years ago.
Does the ACL ‘campaign’ fit under the umbrella of the HAL season? Surely, there might be capacity to at least get short term signings for the period of the ACL alone?
(or is that too detrimental to team structures?)
btw -
Mr Harcourt supports businesses attaching themselves to absolutely anything and anyone that might allow a foot in the door.
Even encouraged using Megan Gales profile in Italy,
fully supported Australian hosted events such as the V8 supercars in Bahrain, the Collingwood v Adelaide game in Abu Dhabi etc, even MelbFC in China with Mayor John So on board.
Basically, Tim Harcourts job is to promote, promote, promote – - and he tends to sell the potential economic benefit in a very positive light (and fair enough). The ability of organisations to recognise and apply the potential is another story altogether. And, of course, when speaking to the Lowy institute – one would not expect him other than to be pppp’ing in their pockets.
Effectively – he’s laid down a challenge.
Be useful.
It remains to be see if anyone in the soccer fraternity can pick up the ball and run with it – - so to speak!!!!
Midfielder said | June 12th 2008 @ 11:02am | Report comment
MC
At least you would get some media ……………. anyway ………. not wishing to stir but comparing AFL international matches with football international matches ………… well it is a very long bow you are using.
Just for the record as I posted earlier the following are the teams in Asia, also I am off for most of the next two days so I will worry bloggers little more.
Antway back to my The ACL & Asian Cup and so on will be interesting in the future development of the game.
Just for the record these are the teams and groupings in Asia,
West Asia, I think this means oil connections lots of money to.
Bahrain Iraq Jordan Kuwait Lebanon Oman Palestine Qatar Saudi Arabia Syria United Arab Emirates Yemen
East Asia, read heaps big dollars.
China PR Chinese Taipei DPR Korea Guam Hong Kong Japan Korea Republic Macau Mongolia
Central & South Asia, create good relationships in areas many parts of the west need good relations with.
Afghanistan Bangladesh Bhutan India IR Iran Kyrgyzstan Maldives Republic Nepal Pakistan Sri Lanka Tajikistan Turkmenistan Uzbekistan
Asean, see good for friendly neighbours,
Australia Brunei Darussalam Cambodia Indonesia Laos Malaysia Myanmar Philippines Singapore Thailand Timor Leste Vietnam
Koala Bear said | June 12th 2008 @ 11:23am | Report comment
Jimbo,
yes of course you are right; and I have been so consumed with the nay arguments against the 2018 world cup; I have taken my eye off the ball, with the the other FIFA sanction tournaments. As you say they are just as important to Australian Football.. and the Australian economy..
The ACL was truly an eye opener of what is to come; and up here on the Gold Coast with the pending Gold Coast United everyone is excited at the prospect of seeing HAL at the Skill Stadium Robina Gold Coast. Clive Palmer the owner of the Gold Coast Franchise who has immense interests in Asia has only been connected with Rugby, but can see what this could mean to his mining empire.
I believe he is the second (?) richest man in Australia.. This man has said he wants the GCU FC to become Asian champions within three years. Of course my allegiance will always be with FC, but I will support GCU against the rest … Yes indeed exciting times ahead..
~~~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | June 12th 2008 @ 11:43am | Report comment
Michael C wrote:: However – - on the most recent Asian Cup – held across 4 nations, and with some games attracting only 500 …
Michael C,
I would be grateful if you put up a link where the attendances only drew 500 spectators across 4 nations.. What teams are you referring to..?
~~~~~~~
KB
Towser said | June 12th 2008 @ 12:15pm | Report comment
What interests me is If guys like Tim Harcourt & others are using the Football/Asia coupling as a means to developing trade why this aspect is not recognised by some areas of the media.
I buy the “Australian” every day. I initially started to buy it for football not long after I came here as compared with the local rags which concentrated on RL or AFL( depending on state) the coverage was far superior & recognised even then that there was an interest in each state for the sport. Not so nowadays it is poor in its general coverage. It seems that they regard our Asian sojourn as so unimportant that they cant send their ever faithful football journalist Ray Gatt to the Middle East to cover the all important matches against Iraq & Qatar resulting in limited reporting.
Let me just say this is not Rays fault. I have contacted him & have it from other reliable sources that he is given the sporting scraps re coverage of football.
Their reporting of the Asian cup matches involving MV& AU was also poor.
If the “Australian” were not aware of Asia’s potential as a trading partner I could understand this. However periodically they have extensive lift-outs on Asian countries in respect to demographics & trade generally.
To my knowledge I’ve never seen an article in the Australian regarding the potential mutual benefits to be gained by linking football & trade. Whereas I have regarding other newspapers.
Whilst I dont think nowadays it will make one iota of difference to whether football & trade will be used to make “contacts” & anyway, I like many others seek the information that we want from the Internet, so we are more aware generally of events, I wonder if the Australian is atypical of other media outlets?
If so why,when many areas at government level are realising the potential benefits.
Is it just that much of the media at the top is controlled by older Non football savvy Anglo Celtic Australians or are their other reasons?
jimbo said | June 12th 2008 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
Midfielder,
I don’t think John Howard read that Harcourt report.
I remember reading somewhere when Mr Howard was asked by the Japanese PM at APEC in Sydney his thoughts about Australia’s performance at the Asian Cup.
The Japanese PM was obviously asking with the intent of gloating about how Japan knocked us out in the quarter finals, as revenge for the World Cup loss.
Howard replied he didn’t even know that Australia was playing in the Asian Cup (and neither did any of his minders).
Mr C
Wikipedia, total match attendances for the 2007 Asian Cup 724,222 (average 22,632 per match).
Highest 87,000 Indonesia v Saudi Arabia (all 3 games involving Indonesia attendance 87,000).
Final Saudi Arabia v Iraq attendance 60,000.
Total visitors to Asian Cup Games estimate 1.3M
Television audience 2007 Asian Cup final estimate 350 million viewers (record Asian Football TV audience is 2004 final Japan v China estimate 500 million viewers.)
Towser said | June 12th 2008 @ 12:21pm | Report comment
KB
Put up a link. As a famous British comedian said(so famous I’ve forgot his name)”You’ll be lucky”. Tried midfielders first up method. Still no luck.
Towser said | June 12th 2008 @ 12:24pm | Report comment
Jimbo
Regarding John Howard.
That relates very well to my question at the end of my previous post.
jimbo said | June 12th 2008 @ 12:38pm | Report comment
Towser,
this is the same John Howard who sat up at 2am in the morning in his green and gold tracksuit to watch the Footballroos FIFA WC game (with his press photographers and cameramen watching the game with him) because he “loves soccer”.
Michael C said | June 12th 2008 @ 12:40pm | Report comment
Jimbo KB
32 matches – total attendance 724,222 – - ran at 32% to venue capacity.
Officially, 15 matches failed to break 10K. However, there’s a fair bit of ’rounding’ happening. Only about 10 crowd results appear NOT to have been rounded to a nearest 500, 1000, or whatever else – - a little dubious. However, I’ll respect the stats as provided.
Yes Jimbo – Indonesia, it was actually 65K vs Bahrain, and then 87K vs each of Saudi Arabia and Korea. The 239K there accounted for 33% (1 third) of total attendances.
Note as well, Vietnam HOME matches were well attended.
basically 120K (full houses) for their 3 games. Should’ve been a ripper in Bangkok for the finals match against Iraq – - alas, 9720 in a 65K venue.
Okay, the Vietnamese don’t appear to travel that well.
But – - at least Indonesia and Vietnam showed the home teams would jump on board.
Well. sorta.
Thailand, 3 home pool matches, 95K fo rthe 3 at a 65K venue. That was 100K empty seats for a host nation?!?!??!
And Malaysia…..even worse,
at the 100K National Stadium in KL
21,155 vs China
7137 vs Uzbekistan
5520 vs Iran
just scraping over 33,800 for 3 HOME matches for the Malaysians.
Now – how did the Japanese respond – - as sporting (soccer) tourists?
Japan v Qatar – 5000 at 40K My Dinh stadium in Hanoi
Japan vs UAE – 5000
and then, 40K vs Vietnam.
How did the Koreans take to it?
well, a little hard to tell, it appears the Indonesians might have done the best job of all at either promoting, or ensuring halfway decent crowds:
45K vs Saudi (100K venue)
9K vs BAhrain (100K venue)
87K vs Indonesia.
Finals surely would tell the true Korean travelling support:
8629 vs Iran at 100K venue.
12,500 vs Iraq at 100K venue.
Okay – - perhaps the Koreans aren’t huge travellers either.
And, Australia?
5K vs Oman
6K vs Iran
46 vs Thailand (all at 65K Rajamangala Stadium in Bangkok).
And, what when we pool Aust v Japan in the finals – - 25K. Hmmmm, okay I guess.
Well, actually, the 2nd best crowd in the 8 finals matches.
So – -
the 500 crowds,
they were Oman v Iraq, and Saudi Arabia vs BAhrain.
we also saw 1863 Iran vs Uzbekisan, 2200 Uzbekistan vs China, 3000 Qatar vs UAE.
Finals crowds from lowest to highest:
8629, 9720, 10K, 10K, 12K, 12.5K, 25K, 60K for the FInal.
All in all – -
it doesn’t actually paint a rosey picture for a country like Australia attempting to host.
Too many of the nations don’t seem to have a mobile supporter base willing or able to travel around.
And, sadly, TV, Internet and Gambling interests are so huge that perhaps the days of massive tourisms boosts might be gone.
Malaysia showed zero interest. The Thais seemed to get a little excited playing Australia (THAT MAY BE SOMETHING TO BUILD ON).
The Finals probably suffered via only Vietnam of the hosts making it, but, with Australia, Japan and Korea – if ever you’d get an indicator of tourism appeal = = that was it. And, it equalled stuff all. Even the Korea vs Japan consolation final – - 10K apparently. And both teams in the semis, 12K results.
So – - on the basis of that,
should Australia host,
play Aust games at half way decent venues.
Play ALL other neutral matches at the minor local venues that already exist.
- – - –
I know some people speculated that 4 host nations was a mistake. And, maybe, maybe, a single nation, hosting, works better. But, gee, we know that Malaysia and Thailand aren’t the places to hold it. Vietnam and Indonesia seemed perhaps a lttle more ‘disciplined’ in providing a crowd…….at very least for the home team.
Towser said | June 12th 2008 @ 12:53pm | Report comment
http://news.smh.com.au/sport/in-asia-the-socceroos-mean-business-20080612-2pcm.html
More Asian news
Jimbo
Chameleon goes for a job interview as a politician.
Interviewer ” Mr Chameleon what are your credentiials”
Chameleon ” I can change my colour to camouflage me depending on my surroundings”
Interviewer ” uhm thats good but can you do backflips”
Chameleon “Er No”
Interviewer ” Do you like going overseas for no apparent reason”
Chameleon “Er no I’m a stay on a branch kind of guy”
Interviewer ” Can you stab a colleague in the back after yesterday telling the press he had your full support”
Chameleon ” I’m a pacifist catching flies on my long tongue for dinner is as nasty as I get”
Interviewer to Receptionist ” Bronwyn throw him out”
Michael C said | June 12th 2008 @ 12:54pm | Report comment
Jimbo KB
additionally,
as indicated, the tourney average was 32% to capacity.
The finals dropped to 25%.
So – 3 home pool games in Indonesia accounted for 33% of TOTAL crowds.
3 home pool games in Vietnam – - 16% of total crowds.
those 6 games provided half the total attendance.
of the other 26 games,
the 8 finals matches provided 20% of total crowds.
The last 18 games provided the last 30%.
Country by country for the pool games (with each having 3 HOME matches) – 6 games in total.
Indonesia 293,610 – - 41% of TOTAL attendances – - 54% to capacity.
Malaysia 43813 – - 6% of TOTAL attendances – - 8% to capacity.
Vietnam 132450 – - 18% of TOTAL attendances – - 59% to capacity.
Thailand 106500 – - 15% of TOTAL attendances – - 30% to capacity.
These are just the facts.
What does it say about the likelihood of Australia hosting and being over run with soccer tourists.
I’m not sure.
We get good tourism for crickets ashes, for the Indian team – was it so much tourist or the pretty large domestic population of ex-pat Indians?
for the Union, we often get a good turn up of travellers with the Poms or Barbarians, and the Kiwis fly in and out to at least fill the stadium . . . . if not bothering the hotels.
- – -
I agree with TIm Harcourt about potential,
but, the reality is possibly still quite some way off.
Doesn’t mean that you don’t try,
just, keep it all in perspective.
Towser said | June 12th 2008 @ 1:22pm | Report comment
Michael C
The link I posted in my previous post is a practical beginning for combining football & trade.
I guess the logic involved in holding an Asian cup involves this sort of Football/trade connection outweighing any small crowds at venues & maybe lack of Asian visitors due to most Asian countries being considered third world.
That is the major difference between trying to develop Asian football & say the current Euros. Disposable income. There may be 6 times the population but not too many Europeans earn a pittance by pulling rickshaws or pedal whatsys with 7 obese Westerners in the back for a living ,or spend hours on rubbish tips looking for that nights dinner.
Thats why for Asia connecting with the big affluent business end of town is so important.
Koala Bear said | June 12th 2008 @ 2:01pm | Report comment
Jimbo,
now that sounds much better….
Wikipedia, total match attendances for the 2007 Asian Cup 724,222 (average 22,632 per match).
Television audience 2007 Asian Cup final estimate 350 million viewers (record Asian Football TV audience is 2004 final Japan v China estimate 500 million viewers.)
~~~~~~~~~~~
Towser,
Caesar’s Rules
Apparently Julius Caesar came back from murdering the Gauls in France and was soaking up the glory and the acclaim of the Romans.
“Friends, Romans and Countrymen, I have returned from our campaign in France and we killed 50k Gauls!”
Caesar’s old adversary Brutus gets sick of the adulation and heads off to France to check out the numbers. Three weeks later he comes back and in front of a crowd, declares.
“Caesar, you’re a liar. You told us you had killed 50K Gauls in France but I’ve checked it out and you killed only 25K”
There’s a stunned silence among the gathered, until Caesar smiles wryly and says:
“Brutus, you are forgetting one thing…… Away Gauls count double in Europe.”
Note:
I like to think this is a Kev2018 (Caesar) vs outgoing Howard (Brutus) in Asia… gag…
~~~~~~~~~
KB
jimbo said | June 12th 2008 @ 2:08pm | Report comment
Hmmmmm . . .
Mr C,
when we talk football and say the glass is half full,
you say the glass is half empty.
I truly believe that hosting an Asian Cup tournament or a World Cup tournament here in Australia, whether it be golf, basketball, rugby, football, netball, AFL or whatever would greatly benefit Australia.
I’m just hoping that the politicians and sports administrators who make the decisions, can keep an open mind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcWVLmCmhto
Michael C said | June 12th 2008 @ 2:08pm | Report comment
Towser -
and that’s where the following might apply -
it may not really matter what the ’side show’ event is – - simply the capacity to ‘run’ something to which to invite palms to be greased.
if we do try to host an Asian Champs – - don’t let people con us that it’ll be a major boost for tourism (that said, how many internationals actually attend the F1 GP other than those who fly in on private jets??)
That – FIFA should really target India, their middle class is far greater than the entire population of Australia – - and, that’s where India, cricket and the IPL as a starting point is perhaps a ‘beast’ about to really explode (once the Indians get the taste for actually SETTING the agenda).
At present, soccer may NOT appear the perfect vehical for each and every nation – - but, then, I speculate that the vehicle itself isn’t that super critical other than allowing semi regular opportunities to access the market. I know understand why the Rugby 7’s are held in Hong Kong (is it?), and cricket 6’s…..and why the crowd in attendance at an AFL exhibition game in Japan or UAE is not at all the significant aspect of the undertaking.
The main thing, is, if lots of tax payer dollars were to go into running the show – - and no doubt there’d be all this attempting to pump up the tourism aspect of it all, and better get your tickets early before they become available to the internationals……..well, we’d be suspecting that there might not be that big rush from overseas visitors.
KB -
what’s sounds much better?
Stating the 22k average crowd. In isolation – - yep, wouldn’t sound so bad if you didn’t know the truth behind it.
I just can’t get over Malaysia, overall 7302 avg attendance for 6 pool games of which 3 included the home team. I am just astounded by that one.
And Vietnam, 6 pool games, avg attendance of 22K, sounds okay. But, 120K of the 132K attended the 3 ‘home’ games, and only 12K attended in total the other 3 neutral games. And, therein is the perfect microcosm.
Towser said | June 12th 2008 @ 2:26pm | Report comment
Jimbo
Had a look at you tube clip.
Then lead me on to the real deal clips when we qualified.
Hadn’t seen ones taken by fans in the crowd before.
Magic.
KB
Good one
Michael C said | June 12th 2008 @ 2:31pm | Report comment
Jimbo -
one thing I have noticed is that soccer folk DO tend to be more ‘romantic’, or ‘optimistic’ about their code. In general, AFL folk seem to ridicule head office, be pessimistic about a lot of things – - and I think much from the inferiority complex that comes from a constant bombardment of international code zealots claiming it’s gotta be rubbish if no one else plays it etc etc.
Most of us see the glass as half empty already.
Soccer folk, from what I’ve seen, have a pretty high level of theoretical glass filling ability.
For me — I realised quite some time ago, that, the truth or basis in reality, can sometimes be somewhat removed.
Now – - given that anytime the small band of merry AFL ‘new romantics’ such as I and a couple of others get half enthused that a few dozen juniors are growing up on our game in Denmark, or Canada etc – - -we get abused for thinking that we’re taking on the might of soccer.
As if!!!!!!
So – - forgive, that, now and then, I’ll just try to establish a perspective.
btw – - that includes in any direction.
As I’ve already done recently regarding AFL crowds vs capacity figures, and the Aust B of Stats figures on participation etc…………the high level stats only tell so much of the story. Much, much more fun to drill down a little bit.
Do you know one thing – -
when you mention the hosting of whatever sports as you listed and anything beyond – -
a decent fed govt would try to ensure that between it and the states that we were as efficient as possible in sharing different sports with international profile around the various states and thus showcasing the entire country.
The fact the Melb leap frogged the other states with the major events corp, and got the F1 GP, we have the MotorGP down at Phillip Is, the Aust Open Tennis etc – - – they are all resident (presently anyway) in Victoria.
In a sense, I’d almost have to fully support the F1 GP being held somewhere else – - -just so long as it stays in Australia – - and, as we’ve discussed things, the value of holding it can not be seen purely against gate receipts vs govt outlay.
Now – I’d hate to see Australia effectively devote too many resources to a once off FIFA WC if that put in jeopardy the annual international events that firmly have Australia on the YEARLY international sporting calendar, year in, year out.
- – - –
the other thing – -
re AFL. I guess I’ve realised what I’m hoping for there. If we can just get the first couple of kids drafted from Sth Africa, PNG, maybe NZ, maybe a Canada, US or Denmark – - – suddenly, there’s a great selling point – NOT for a World Cup, but, the amateur international cup hopefully becomes then more a development tourney that showcases potential draft talent, that the best 17-18-19 yr olds will be prioritised to play. And, suddenly, the tournement has a level of respect – - again, not as a World Cup. BUT – - it will be CHEAP as all get out compared to many other events – - mainly because it IS amateur. And, maybe, just maybe, it can become a useful little vehicle that is entirely controlled (for now anyway) by Australia.
Just to become a ‘USEFUL’ part of the broader picture.
——
btw – cute youtube clip.
NAB will love their publicity!!!!
actually, just brings back the pain of missing Warneys hat trick……..oh, that, and too often the Ch.7 Saturday delayed AFL game cuts out the winning team singing their song in the change rooms………
Koala Bear said | June 12th 2008 @ 2:32pm | Report comment
Michael C,
let us wait and see what happens when the Marn Grook World Cup comes to town and see if it will attract 22k average thru all of Australia; then we can compare figures and TV coverage through Australia and Asia.. We are having a game in each state aren’t weee..?..!!!! Let me know when a game is scheduled for Carrara..Qld
~~~~~~~~
KB
Towser said | June 12th 2008 @ 2:49pm | Report comment
“one thing I have noticed is that soccer folk DO tend to be more ‘romantic’, or ‘optimistic’ about their code”
Michael C I doubt whether pre FL you would have seen too many fans of football in Australia waxing lyrical about how romantic the game was and most like me thought optimism was an eye defect.
Excuse us if we appear to have a glazed look in our eye now, but the current success, after years of seeing the honey pot overseas through the blurred vision of being constantly clubbed over the head by failure at home ,has left us temporarily insane.
Michael C said | June 12th 2008 @ 2:52pm | Report comment
KB –
sure enough, should there ever be an AFL world cup, I’ll let you know all about it.
It’s only you calling the International Cup a world cup.
It’d be nice is you stopped going on about it. NO one has claimed it to be anything like equivalent to a fair dinkum world cup – - other than to compare – - as I did, some of the ‘developing’ or ‘affiliate’ nations in the AFL IR, vs some of those who actually contest the RL WC for example – - which, goes to show, that if the RL WC is legitamate – - it’s really only so on the basis of the top 4-6 nations.
That’s there nearest football comparison. i.e. the RL WC is most certainly ‘top tier’ mixed with development and pretty low level affiliates.
Perhaps they too should hold an IR Cup for the developing and affiliate nations.
Now – - on that note, because we AFL folk are generally cricketers in the off season – - for me, the real comparision is to the ICC Cup, which is conducted for developing nations. SImple. AFL IR Cup compares to ICC Cup.
No point comparing to the ICC WC.
And, the actual comparison fails at any rate on the basis that the prize for the ICC Cup is to get through to the actual ICC WC.
NO such prize for the AFL IR Cup winner. Just……prestige!!!!
So – - if you happen to be free in late August, come down to Melbourne, because, Canada vs the US, or the Brits v Ireland, Denmark v Sweden, ………………….., doesn’t really matter the sport, or the level of professionalism………….they still become contests on the day that mean the WORLD to those competing. (you do remember, there ARE no expats involved, no players eligible because of parents nation of birth etc)
But – - I guess you just sneeze at that.
NOt very respectful – - -is it KB???
Koala Bear said | June 12th 2008 @ 2:52pm | Report comment
Jimbo,
now you have done it; I will spend a sleepless night wondering what name is appropriate for our indigenous game.. Australian Foot-Thing League (AFTL) or the recently discovered name of Marn Grook (Grooky) .. I can’t decide.. One thing I know its not “Da Ting” ..
OK Michael C,
which would you prefer ? and I have ruled out “Da Ting” …. too Asian and we have the Footballroos looking after the Asian region.. If only Norm was around he would know ..
~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | June 12th 2008 @ 3:00pm | Report comment
Towser -
ah yep,
but that’s domestically.
Previously, the superiority – - most annoyingly so – - was people using Man U, Real Madrid, the Euro Cup etc, as proof of what a better game it was that they played and that we didn’t know anything (despite the fact that most of us kicked a soccer ball around a heck of a lot more than more soccer people would have a sherrin).
Domestically – - yes, certainly, a whole different ‘ball game’.
KB -
If there is American Football, Canadian Football and Gaelic Football – - then, there can only be one Australian Football.
We have the rules book “The laws of Australian Football”
we have the League – - “The Australian Football League”
we could however – -
to make it distinct to soccer
call it ‘Goal ball’
or ‘Kick Goal ball’
or ‘Headless Horseless Ball’
or,
just ‘BALL’
as paying homage to the roar of the crowd “BAAALLLL”
and, the 360 degree nature of the game – - which immediately brings to mind a circle, i.e. what you get if you slice a sherrin across the long axis.
of course, we know you feelings about ‘ball’ vs ‘ellipsoid’ vs ’sphere’………..
Koala Bear said | June 12th 2008 @ 3:13pm | Report comment
Michael C wrote: NOt very respectful – - -is it KB???
I am going to reinstate you as my Comrade C, as I have missed you — now “respectful” let’s see; I don’t think I have been any less respectful to Marn Grook as you have been to Rugbies and Football — the only difference I can see is that at least I can appreciate all codes; where as you have this attitude if it ain’t Marn Grook all is fair game .. That’s OK; but don’t start crying foul when someone starts knocking your preferred game; and to answer you question of the Marn Grook World Cup. I have as much respect for it as you have respect for the Asian Cups..
Which I think is fair enough isn’t it.. 
~~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | June 12th 2008 @ 3:25pm | Report comment
Comrade C,
OK then I think its Football for me and Grooky for you.. The indigenous name … Marn Grook…
~~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | June 12th 2008 @ 3:26pm | Report comment
KB -
ah, but, I don’t try to pretend the Asian Cup is the next biggest thing behind the World Cup – - it may one day evolve to something worthwhile – - but, many of us ‘neutral’ sports fans were left with a foul taste in our mouth after the poor showing (on AND off the field) by the socceroos in 2007, as well as the crowds on a par with the Auckland NZ Knights shortlive soccer club.
Now – re the AFL IR, I stress that over and over, stuff all people attend it, there’s no reason to televise it, most people don’t know it’s on, most people don’t realise that it’s not just about ex-pat Aussies pretending to be international sides. I’ve never tried to promote as anything other than a wonderful example of dedicated amateur footballers from around the world, some of whom HAVE actually now grown up with the game such as some 21 yr olds from Denmark with over 100 odd games of footy to their credit – - which, makes them as valid a participant as anyone in Australia.
Now – - ’tis you who keeps going on about ‘estimated’ viewing audiences and the like.
And, please, what have I said that’s untrue or particularly harsh subjectively about the Asian Cup?
or even the World Cup.
Most of what I’ve presented has either being purely objective based upon published facts, or, referencing reasonably commonly available subjective analysis such as economic benefits vis economic costs and the like.
I haven’t just gone on a rant.
Unlike some.
Michael C said | June 12th 2008 @ 3:32pm | Report comment
Grooky…..
actually, that reminds me of a book I got by Danish Author PIet Hein, called “Grooks”
Look him up.
btw -
I reckon it’s only because some AFL types heard about how easy it was to play in an RU or RL WC based on parentage that anyone even looked at the AFL and thought, hang on, we COULD actually have an Australia vs Greece vs Italy mini world cup……..I think it would have stopped at about there, but, you never know, I might’ve been able to lead the Danes to a surprise victory over Bahrain or Bhutan!!!!!
glad to have the comrade back,
Norm said | June 12th 2008 @ 3:45pm | Report comment
KB
AFTL i think.
Koala Bear said | June 12th 2008 @ 3:48pm | Report comment
Comrade C,
there is Italian Football; Greek Football; Spanish Football; German Football, English Football; Scottish Football ect ect.. and Australian Football and we also have rules the FIFA world governing body rules book..
Football name belongs to the Harrow football dribbling codes, which the English Football Association derived from.. traced back to the 14th century .. Marn Grook is an appropriate name for the Australian version … I have warmed to it; haven’t you..?
~~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | June 12th 2008 @ 4:00pm | Report comment
Norm,
glad for your input Lad, however, on this occasion we have settled on “Grooky” celebrating 40,001 yrs on the new millennium calender of Marn Grook (Grooky)
Well done Comrade C.. Now that wasn’t all that hard was it …
~~~~~~
KB
John Ryan said | June 12th 2008 @ 4:06pm | Report comment
Biggest Problem is that Marn Grook is like the150 th a figment of an AFL house scriptwriters imagination,but as some one said, tell the lie long enough,make it big enough,and it will be believed by the simple minded,funny how they seem to live in Vistoria and earn there living as AFL sports journalists ain’t it
Michael C said | June 12th 2008 @ 4:26pm | Report comment
John Ryan -
I’ll call you Kotter from now on – - welcome back,….welcome back, welcome back, welcome back.
’twas not Victorians perpetuating the William Webb Ellis myth…..
’twas not Victorians perpetuating the ’soccer invented in China’ rubbish….
gee – - -it’s even the NRL trying to celebrate the 100th year of RL in Australia, when, it’s actually the 101st year of RL in Australia, given that season 100 was played in 2007. Obviously back in the Superleague days some records must’ve been shredded and the poor dears can’t do the math.
AFL – pretty consistant, they celebrate the 100th season as it happens, that way, you CAN actually call it the 100th year of “insert name here”,
sadly, Mr Kotter, the joke is on you if you still carry on with this – - or, do you wish to claim that the NSWRL season that kicked off in 1908 was season ZERO, rather than the FIRST season (therefore, season number ONE).
The NRL are clearly celebrating the 101st season. 1908-2008 is 101 seasons, 101 separate years.
Are you suggesting that the 100th season of VFL/AFL from 1897-1996 was wrong, that the 1897 season should somehow have been ingored?
You do realise, and I’ll stick with the VFL centenary here to keep it simple (the same logic applies to 150th year of Melb FC 1859-2008).
1st 100 years – 1897-1996
2nd 100 years will be 1997-2096
3rd 100 years will be 2097-2196
do you see the pattern, each is 100 separate unique numbers. Count them if you wish, I’ll start you off : 1897, 1898, 1899, 1900 – - see, already, 4 seasons, and yet, 1900 – 1897 = 3. Gee, go figure!!!!!
it’s the issue of potential double counting of seasons.
The logic that yourself and Mr.KB seem unable or unwilling to work past is this:
1897-1997 (or for the 150th, you suggest 1859-2009)
you would then suggest what?
1997-2097? so, you want to count 1997 twice? You DO realise that this is double counting 1997? You DO realise this, don’t you?
or, should we then make it 1998-2098
2099-2199
2200-2300
2301-2401……
it’s like some warped leap year theory………….get guys, I beat you struggle with daylight saving too.
—————————————
Grooky…..
I didn’t say I agreed.
btw – typo – - Piet Hein, not Plet!!!
NOW try to look him up!!!
So – - if we went for Grooky and Footsoccerball……
Koala Bear said | June 12th 2008 @ 4:35pm | Report comment
John,
interesting point you have bought up, as it sort of reminds me in the precedent case of of the French Champagne Districts vs The Australian Sparkling wine industry in its unlawful use of the name Champagne as a product of Australia; and as we all know that the outcome of that international case was an unfavourable result for the Australian Wine Association..
Therefore, I congratulate and understand the position of the newly formed Marn Grook League, to end any possible ugly ramifications of the European name “Football” dragged through the international courts as I see it … I think it is the correct decision, to embrace the myth or legend, however, one see it to be, as it is the only way to go forward..
If the code is going to survive… 
~~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | June 12th 2008 @ 4:47pm | Report comment
‘marn grook’ translates to ‘game ball’.
Probably most appropriate – - given, that the other codes are so restricted via off-side and no hands or no passing forwards or no something else………..there really IS only one decent GAME.
Now –
given we’re seeking to avoid confusion of ‘FOOTBALL’ -
the Harrow lads call their game ‘Footer’,
so,
soccer, or footer – - or perhaps ‘footerball’
although, I’m still confused about how YOU manage to confuse a spherical soccer ball with a pork pie shaped object 18 inches by 12 inches.
Now – - considering that Harrow wasn’t codified until 1865 – - you can draw nothing from similarity or otherwise of rules to 1863 London Football rules. Prior to that, the game was really not structured.
Harrow school website admits as much “It began as an unorganised kick-about in the School Yard (fug football) and slowly developed into an organised activity.”
A 450 year old ball does nothing. The Marn Grook believers have no problem proving the existance of balls!!!!
You have NOTHING to stand on here other than a coincidence AFTER the fact the niether prooves the chicken or the egg – merely that both exist.
- – - -
now – - those who attack the ’seductive myth’ of Marn Grook and Australian Football, basically seek written documentation and reject the indigenous ‘word of mouth’ style ‘history’. Seems to me, you yourself, are trying your darndest to invent a word of mouth history.
Talk about myths.
Norm said | June 12th 2008 @ 4:57pm | Report comment
Re – “…there really IS only one decent GAME.” ………& its not your game…
Michael C said | June 12th 2008 @ 5:01pm | Report comment
Ah Normie,
once again, you’ve extended and excelled yourself.
Care to expand?
btw -
KB – - ‘foteball’ with ‘footeballepleyers’……….that might about do it going back to medieval times, but, just WHAT were the rules they were using and were they continuous to the schools of circa 1830-40……seems that at Harrow they never had any real rules until the 1860s…….
Norm said | June 12th 2008 @ 5:06pm | Report comment
unlike you Micahel C I value brevity.
Michael C said | June 12th 2008 @ 5:07pm | Report comment
Normie -
I hear there’s a pill you can take for that……
Norm said | June 12th 2008 @ 5:23pm | Report comment
MC
is it on PBS?
Michael C said | June 12th 2008 @ 5:26pm | Report comment
Norm -
for what it’ll do for you……..it’d want to be…………
……for some, it might be on SBS…….
jimbo said | June 12th 2008 @ 10:31pm | Report comment
Towser,
glad you liked the youtube link,
if you liked that one you might find these other 2 items a little amusing,
with sincerest apologies to our AFTL – Marn Grook fellow bloggers . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o65YXWOMZq8
and . . .
Following on the success of his first children’s book “Megs and the Vootball Kids” comes Mark Schwarzer’s new book – “Mean Mr Moneybags and the Footballing Waifs”
It’s the story of Mean Mr Moneybags, who has made an absolute fortune out of a game called Gimme Dat Ting, which is played very extensively and exclusively in a country called Arsendofthearthia.
Gimme Dat Ting is based on the supposed prehistoric game of Gimme Dat Grog, played by cavemen about 500 million years ago using something called (by some historians) a Cherrun – a dried out dinosaur’s scrotum filled with mammoth manure and sewn up with choko vines.
Gimme Dat Grog was a game of skill and courage where the cavemen try and kick the Cherrun between the dinosaur’s legs and score a “goll”.
If you miss getting through the dinosaur’s legs and hit the dinosaur with the Cherrun in the rear end, then this was called a “behind”.
Some Gimme Dat Ting modern day historians to this day are still arguing whether the Gimme Dat Grog players actually used their hands or not when kicking the Cherrun or if they indeed might have even picked up the Cherrun and ran with it.
Anyway, Mean Mr Moneybag’s game is more closely related to and more of a revival of the indigenous Arsendofthearthia people’s version of Gimme Dat Ting (also known as Marn’s Crook) first played 40,000 years ago, where the “Cherrun” was made out of a possum skin and filled with gum leaves.
Mean Mr Moneybags has revived the use of a possum skin but included the ingenious gimmick of filling the Cherrun with $50 and $100 Arsendofthearthia currency notes.
The players go mad for the possum moneybags and the prize of sharing the cash as the winning team.
The teams are made up of indigenous Arsendofthearthia people, Irish backpackers and any other white, English speaking people who can pass the Arsendofthearthia Citizenship Test.
The TV audiences are huge and the Gimme Dat Ting games even out rate Arsendofthearthia’s highly popular “I Used To Be a Lesbian” show.
Gimme Dat Ting players like Sam Newbrain, Wayne Cares, Ben Snortins, Barry Balls and Gary Tablet have become TV celebrities and household names in Arsendofthearthia.
Mean Mr Moneybags’ good fortune however, has made him very greedy and he has bought out all the sporting arenas in Arsendofthearthia and is bribing all the politicians to build more Gimme Dat Ting stadiums.
This has created a huge population of footballing waifs who have no home, no money and no football to play with.
Mean Mr Moneybags is going around paying the kiddies and their parents lots of money to play Gimme Dat Ting.
Some very jealous people are starting rumours that Mean Mister Moneybags is even making lots of money out of selling the kiddies magical white dust that makes them run faster and kick longer (or at least it makes them think they do).
The climax of the story comes about when Mean Mr Moneybags greed comes back to haunt him and the footballing waifs get their revenge.
You see, all the roads to the Gimme Dat Ting stadiums are paved with gold and the very ostentatious Mean Mr Moneybags has even made the Gimme Dat Ting goal posts out of solid gold.
That night, the waifs sneak in and steal the Gold posts and a few gold pavers on the golden brick road leading into Gimme Dat Ting Dome.
They melt down the gold and buy an old hemp farm on the outskirts of LazyTown.
They also manage to get hold of some old leather football boots, an old leather football to kick around and a couple of chiko rolls to stop their tummies rumbling.
The footballing waifs run off with their African and Asian refugee mates (who failed the Arsendofthearthia Citizenship Test) and kick the old leather ball around a converted cow paddock with chestnut trees for goal posts, far, far way from the clutches of Mean Mr Moneybags.
Midfielder said | June 13th 2008 @ 12:05am | Report comment
jimbo
Enjoyed the youtubes
westy said | June 13th 2008 @ 12:13am | Report comment
Michael C glad to see the reinactment game celebrating 150 years being attended by ………not the AFL CEO , not Operations Manager nor even its second in charge. It is obviously so important.to them. but we are off to the Olympics.bugger the 150 years . The recent move by the AFL to shift a game to SCG and then to ANZ to clash with League’s world cup opener lends weight to its spoiler tactics. Whatever you might say this very late shift was at the least unedifying and embarrassing for a generally supportive trust and state government. It was not well received by these bodies irrespective of league’s response. If they wanted to compete which is good they had ample time to program. The late attempted move was described by Trust officials as very late and simply disruptive.
Redb said | June 13th 2008 @ 12:20am | Report comment
If their not talking about you, your dead
The AFL must be getting it right.
Redb
Koala Bear said | June 13th 2008 @ 8:15am | Report comment
Norm,
Jimbo is a smash hit…. they love him at the CRSL ….
Jimbo,
love your work, its marvelous; can you do an old geriatrics story book version on Arsendofthearthia.?. I have suspicions that a few of the gals of the CRSL Ladies Auxiliary may be a bit butch. One was spotted in the sportsman’s bar wearing white hotpants, a black white striped singlet with matching stocks and thongs, drinking a pina colada thru her mustache..
~~~~~~~~~~
KB
Norm said | June 13th 2008 @ 8:28am | Report comment
yes KB jimbo has a certain style about him.
Michael C said | June 13th 2008 @ 9:14am | Report comment
Westy -
since when is the compromise International Rules hybrid 80% Gaelic 20% Aust Footy game considered an AFL invasion?
I’ve explained previously, until a month ago or so, there was no certainty of ANY games occurring this year.
Then, the AFL indicated one only – likely at the MCG Oct 31. The information regarding that was a brief mention in an article about the drop in pitches at the MCG. The GAA insisted on TWO matches – - so, the AFL had to ascertain ground availability.
So – - you’re abusing the AFL for …… wait for it…………….. for ASKING????
oh dear, you and your NRL hard done by bretheren are really scraping the barrel looking for something to whinge about.
I repeat the question – (and, this time, with the hypotheical outcome that the SCG WERE available and the game would be held there)
How is an International Rules game between Aust and Ireland that is far, far more Gaelic than AFL – - how is that in ANY way raining on the parade a few days later of the NRL?
This is a shocking example of :
NRL fear mongering
Sydney insularity
blatant NRL media bias in Sydney
and – I point out again – -
Melbourne has long since coped quite happily with soccer, union, league matches all over the place -
we are quite capable of playing footy at Telstra dome tonight, and then having a Rugby Union test tomorrow, and then footy again on Sunday………that’s actually a good thing.
This happens a fair bit,
whether it was the Juve vs MVFC match on a Friday night a couple of weeks ago, that was followed by AFL matches the following day, the Saturday and then the Sunday.
Venues NEED to be used.
Now – - -
what exactly are you accusing the AFL of trying to do here?
Surely Sydney is a big and ugly enough city to cope with a couple of DIFFERENT events a couple of days apart.
Surely the AFL demographic and possibly a few Irish attending the IR game would have zero impact upon attendance at the NRL world cup.
SUrely the NRL world cup is significant enough to the RL demographic that NOTHING will get in the way…
However, I suspect, that, just as Aust vs NZ ‘tests’ in RL play very much 2nd fiddle to the SoO – - that, the RL WC runs the risk that only very, very few games will stir the imagination of RL followers. But – - that’s an issue for the ARL and NRL to sort out for themselves……………..ah…….I see what they’re doing……………….they’re actually trying to AGAIN leverage of creating anti-AFL sentiment to try to generate publicity and a greater sense of ‘RL patriotism’…………….
…..and you’re just lapping it up and feeding it back out here……….
Are you sure you’re not on the ARL, NRL or NewsLtd payroll?????
Michael C said | June 13th 2008 @ 9:19am | Report comment
John Ryan -
yep, RL – - 101st season and we’ll call it the centenary season……because, most the supporters can’t grasp the maths………and, we definitely are as you, Mr.Kotter did put it “at least RL is 100 yrs old “.
please – - explain the BS I’m trying to justify.
You’ve said it,
now back it up.
Where am I wrong?
Michael C said | June 13th 2008 @ 10:16am | Report comment
Jimbo -
tee hee,
KB and Normie will be laughing at that wonderfully childish load of drivel…….
poor Mr.Schwarzer – - wrote a book about a kid who plays the most wide spread game in the world who moved to a new country and found that while the language was 95% the same that, gosh, he wasn’t back home in Shropshire any more…………oh dear, he found that they didn’t exclusively play the game he was used to……………..
gosh. Imagine the hardship.
Mr.Schwarzer so clearly has his hand on ‘it’ and his head firmly wedged up his ‘4 * r followed by an s’
NOw, I tried to respect your effort and read your little story, but,
If I’m to believe that you are very thinly hiding your true feelings – - then, it very much speaks of someone not at all happy to be ’stuck’ in Australia – - in which case I put to you that you have 2 choices -
A. shut up and cope
B. move to a country the fits your ideal profile
a certain PM of this country signed his political death warrant by referring to this country as the ‘arse end of the world’. It is a degrading and irritatingly resonates of cultural cringe, of a lack of naitonal pride and a briming over of inferiority complex.
So – - I hope that your little story was really just a load of rot – - because, if these are your true feelings – - then gee, I almost feel sorry for you that you seem to so have to endure and suffer your time in this great country that offers – - – an alternative history to european colonialism, that offers broader choices in most respects than any other country in the world………………….btw, where DO you live?
——
“The teams are made up of indigenous Arsendofthearthia people, Irish backpackers and any other white, English speaking people who can pass the Arsendofthearthia Citizenship Test.”
please explain:
do the following mean nothing to you:
Adem Yze (Albania)
Peter Bell (Sth Korea)
David Rodan, Alipate Carlisle (Fiji)
Aaron Edwards (Samoa)
Mal Michael (PNG)
Bachar Houli (Muslim)
Todd Golstein (Jewish)
in recent times
Damian Cupido (Sth Africa)
Sanford Wheeler (afro American)
Danny Seow (China)
and the wonderful array of names (playing this week) such as:
Ramanauskas, Winderlich, Mark LeCras, Michael Braun, Kyle Reimers, Danial Giansiracusa, Jason Akermanis, Michael Rischitelli, Matt Riggio, Nathan Van Berlo, Jason Porplyzia, Ivan Maric, Andrew Carrazzo, Matthew Kreuzer, Brendon Fevola, Darren Pfeiffer, Nick Malceski, Nick Dal Santo, Leigh Montagna, Nick Riewoldt, Justin Koschitzke, Adam Schneider, Aaron Fiora, David Wojcinski, Stephen Salopek, Dominic Cassisi, Justin Westhoff, Jacob Surjan, Brett Deledio, Jay Schulz, Dean Polo, Colin Sylvia
and over the years:
David Schwartz, David Neitz, Wayne Schwass, Wayne and Daryl Schimmlebusch, Alex Jesaulencko, Alex Ischencko, Tony Liberatore, Angelo Petraglia, Carl Ditterich, Anthony Koutoufidis, Ang Christou, John Georgiadis……………………etc, etc, etc
some of my faves included Zeno Tzatzaris, Mario Turco, Frank Lesiputty and Milan Faletic….
Yep, just a bunch of skips and Irish backpackers…………………
you really, really have NO idea at all, do you?
the silly irony, I’ve basically seen soccer fans in this country jump up and down because they suddenly spot the odd name that doesn’t at first sound ‘ethnic’…………
……….and, so then, the counter story of the mass migration of onion farmers who came to Arsendofthearthia – from a far away land called Eurothica – and claimed for themselves small pockets of land, upon which they grew and harvested onions, often seen frolicking with their bounty by propelling by foot, head and secretly by hand (although, they refuse to admit to it, or recognise that they DO do it), these onions would be attempted to be collected into their onion bag structures at either end of the tilled field……..alas, there was a lot of wastage in their Eurothicacentric farming practices (not suited at all to Arsendofthearthia conditions) – - and, the wastage rate ran as high as 90%, and so, for most the local vege growers there lacked an outright allure to grow more onions too, let alone to grow and harvest onions in such a wasteful manner. The local indigenous population could not believe the manner in which these Eurothiconian onion farmers, they weren’t much inclined to join in, often attempting to advise the Eurothiconian onion farmers, only to find closed ears and minds and oft met with a barrage of rotten onions (something quite foreign to the local indigenous population who found rotten onions to be toxic and this led to many fatalities – - something the Eurothiconian onion farmers blamed on the indigenous folk – - this was where the term ‘onion off side’ originated, that the Eurothiconian onion farmers would ensure they didn’t risk being caught out near the indigenous folk, for fear of being struck by rotten or “OFF” onions, – - they therefore sought to avoid the ‘off side’.)
the sad reality is that THERE HAD been local onion farmers previously, however, there developed a cultural insularity that saw the new comers effective freeze out the pre-existing local onion growers. The previous farmers were forced to plough their fields and plant new crops which they actually found grew much better, had better yeild and were actually a little more ‘forgiving’ in the local climate.
Sadly, the onion industry became a nasty, grubby and inefficient industry characterised by pockets of farmers from different national backgrounds who harbored violent and often ancient Eurothiconian enmities. This prevented a unified onion industry.
However, they would always claim that their onion was a far superior food product to the beans, peas, carrots and melons grown in other areas. However, even those locals who could handle the onion, found that it was okay for particular uses only, wasn’t a food for all seasons, and too much of it left a bad odour……..
And to modern times, the onion industry finally got a bit of governmental attention – - the government fed up that on the global onion trade scene that Arsendofthearthia was falling well behind with poor product, poor efficiency and poor reputation. It became an national embarrassment at the semi regular Onion growers convention (usually held a week after the Plumbers and Septics Contractors Convention – - something about preferred odours or odour camoflage I believe).
The onion farmers claim that because onions are grown all over the world that they must be the best vegetable – - – - the Arsendofthearthia people have failed to be convinced, and thankfully continue to consume a variety of vegetables not necessarily available to people throughout the rest of the world. The Arsendofthearthia locals sometimes feel sorry for the rest of the world that they lack the choice, and without large Arsendofthearthia vegetable marketing and branding corporations operating in Eurothica, it’s difficult to get the message out. “Oh well”, many say, let’s just live happily in our own paradise.
The onion farmers have created aggravation by continuing to blame the beans, peas, carrot and melon farmers for the state of the onion industry. Quite amazing really. And, now that the Arsendofthearthia Govt has been forced to act, some onion farmers are patting themselves a little too readily on the back – - but, in typical onion farmer style,…..they are very good at claiming the glory themselves without acknowledging the efforts of all behind the scenes in revamping the onion industry and attempting to improve productivity………………
there’s a lot of water yet to go down the irrigation channel on this story – - and even that irrigation channel is in a state of uncertainty…………
and that, my friends, is another story entirely……
Michael C said | June 13th 2008 @ 11:02am | Report comment
John Ryan -
ah, so, you refuse to actually answer the question.
You’ve done that a lot.
You’ve got about 2 lines you trot out over and over,
I’ve rarely seen you add anything useful either for or against an idea in respect to actually statistical proofs, references to articles,sources etc……………
no….it’s just you blowing up your own tyres.
btw – -
I’ve not once ‘run like a child to the mods’,
I HAVE, probably like yourself, received some attention from the mods.
I was easily able to illustrate who the instigators were, and while I recognise that the retaliator only has so much of a mitigation of self defense in this environment – - – -
we once again have you displaying your desire to simply abuse until you gain a reaction.
- – - –
now, please,
illustrate to me how
1859-2008 DOES NOT equal 150 years.
I understand mathematics, and that 2008 minus 1859 = 149.
But – I understand that between 2008 and 1859 there ARE in fact 148 years, and – - if we are counting the first year, 1859, that makes it 148 years IN BETWEEN plus one,
and if we are counting the year we are IN, i.e. 2008,
that makes it 148 years in between, plus one, plus one………
so…………..150th year.
Simple.
Now please – - explain to me how this is BS.
You said it. You proove it.
And, explain to me how the RL ARE NOT presently celebrating the 101st season of RL in Australia…….1908 + 99 years = 2007 – - that’s 100 years.
2008 – - is the 101st year.
It may seem puerile rubbish to you……
…..but, if you accuse me of peddling BS, and then refuse to illustrate where I am – - in your eyes – - wrong.
I’m afraid it’s the kettle calling the pot black, my lad,
and, you, my dear sir, are surely the blackest……………….unless you care to shed to light?
btw – -
did you lap up every word of Jimbos little tale? Is it okay if it’s anti AFL, but, coming the other way it’s all propaganda and Melbourne is the only sheltered workshop and…..oh, you must find it hard to get through each day, MATE!
so much anger in this one,……..
Joe FC said | June 13th 2008 @ 11:18am | Report comment
I think your getting cuaght up in semantics Michael C. As I pointed out to you some weeks ago David Jones are of the view that they’re celebrating 170 yrs of trading. Thus it would seem that there are some informed people who disagree with you.
Koala Bear said | June 13th 2008 @ 11:29am | Report comment
John,
I can’t help feeling the same. I just got thru Comrade Michael C’s post, and felt I just had read Thomas Keneally’s novel Shindler’s Ark.. I immediately reached for my medication (A bex power a hot cuppa and a good lay down).. Nonetheless, I am now wondering is there any truth to Westy’s claim with the proposed International Rules match going head to head with the Rugby League international match as pure evil … I read Roy Master take on that, and he accused the Marn Grook lads as deliberately trying to spoil the RL 100yrs celebrations … It really seems that way.. Not that I don’t care too much for Marn Grook I have watch a fair number of Marn Grook games; but surley a mid week hybrid Marn Grook and Gaelic match could have been arranged for the following week or before the RL World Cup final celebration match. What is needed here is peaceful coexistence..
~~~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | June 13th 2008 @ 11:31am | Report comment
Joe FC -
I wouldn’t mind moving on from this discussion -
but, the reality, perhaps as you recognise, is that you can attempt to ‘promote’ such events in a couple of ways. The absolute correctness – - just as to whether the year 2000 or the year 2001 was really the big new years day to celebrate – - well, the correctness MAY just be semantics – - BUT,
I didn’t know or care about the NRL ‘centenary season’ celebrations until NRL media and supporters came out accusing the AFL of trying to rain their parade.
I’ve pointed out over and again, that the old VFL celebrated the 50th season – very correctly, in 1908 – - – 1859-1908, 50 Melbourne winters of the Melb FC playing football. Then 1909-1958 provides the next 50 years, and, guess what – - the VFL celebrated again in 1958 with ANOTHER national ‘carnival’ of footy. And, finally, 1959-2008 provides another 50 years.
Absolute correctness.
And yet people are accusing the AFL of ‘manufacturing’ something.
That is the rubbish that I am defending,
because, the AFL are NOT at fault. NO one in the AFL world would’ve considered that the ARL were going to celebrate their 101st season!!!! We really don’t care- – - -it seems odd, that, the ARL can schedule State of Origin matches in Melbourne, insert a manufactured media owned team in Melbourne – - and, we just happily get on with our own business,
and, what do we do in Sydney – - we’ve had a team up there for over 25 years, we’ve never plonked a Vic vs SA or Vic vs WA SoO matche up there, we DID ask about ground availability to maybe play a pseudo Gaelic hybrid game – - – - but, apparently that’s too aggressive…….
There’s some major double standards in operation here, and, an awful lot is being peddled by the NSW NRL/media alliance.
Good luck to them.
I’ll at least ensure that if someone googles, that they might find an alternatve perspective.
So – - if David Jones chooses the 171st year of trading to celebrate the magical number of 170 successfully completed years – - – well, who is to say that they aren’t just plucking any old excuse to try to trump Myer in the marketing stakes…….and, you want to base a ‘proof’ on that?!?!??!?!
come on.
If I’m getting caught up in semantics, then, what’s everyone else doing.
Either you’re going to inform KB, John Ryan and others that they TOO are getting caught up semantics – - – - or, you are making a very, very feeble attempt to win an argument by coming under what you seemed to hope might have been a ‘white flag’ but alas, it’s very hard to hide your banner of war.
Joe FC said | June 13th 2008 @ 11:37am | Report comment
Michael C…….you take yourself too seriously…
Michael C said | June 13th 2008 @ 11:38am | Report comment
KB -
as if anyone in AFL land cares two hoots about the RL World Cup.
Let’s see how many RL fans come out in force to celebrate their 10 best nations going at it……
and, really, if the AFL were trying to make some significant gain – - why on earth would you use the much derided 80% Gaelic rules hybrid games to try to …… just what do you suggest that it would achieve…..?
To, divert the attention of the entire Sydney media and public from the RL World Cup????
Really????
get real – please.
[please note - the GAA boys AND the AFL boys are all playing as amateurs during the latter part of October - - people often forget that those AFL boys who DO play ARE NOT paid, and are playing during what is normally their off-season. The GAA boys have jobs to get back home too, they don't have so much flexibility to just play it the next week or when ever - - it's a tight window to be locked away. So - - don't forget, the AFL simply enquired about ground availability - - - and, seemingly, at the request of the GAA to hold a game in Sydney. No one seems to mention that, because, it only suits to claim some evil AFL conspiracy.]
Koala Bear said | June 13th 2008 @ 11:41am | Report comment
2008
1908-
——-
100 Simple..
2008
1859-
——
149 Simple..
~~~~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | June 13th 2008 @ 11:44am | Report comment
Joe FC -
someones got to!!!
(I once stumbled across the SMH flog when a soccer fanatic accused the AFL of deliberately spoiling soccer by NOT publishing a MVFC ad in the AFL Grand Final record – — – this fellow was certain that it signified anti soccer conspiracy by the AFL – - when, in reality, the main body of the AFL record is bedded down well in advance for Grand Final week, the advertising is bedded down well in advance with the regular advertisers/sponsors obviously given preference. The only ‘fluid’ element is the ‘insert’ of the teams not known until the days before, but, agaiin, the structure is well enough known and the advertising all pre-sold – - – and, so, this story came out because soccer people wanted some free and cheap publicity in the week leading up to the AFL Grand FInal – - – - now, who was raining on who’s parade????)
so – - since then, I’ll beat my head against the brick wall of Sydney centric anti AFL attitudes – - – - and, since I learned to touch type many years ago, I don’t waste nearly as much breath as many others do.
Michael C said | June 13th 2008 @ 11:50am | Report comment
KB -
simple?
why then is 1980-1989 a decade?
10 years.
YOur logic suggests 1989-1980 = 9 years.
Do you at all understand this???
1980 to 1990 counts 11 years. Not 10.
Are you suffering early onset dementia, or is your calculator failing you?
Perhaps, you need an abacus to work this one out.
Each row has 10 beads, not, let’s call the 10 red ones a year each, let’s say, 1980, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89. WHOAAA!!!!!, hold up, I DON’T have a 1990 bead!!!! I must have a faulty abacus…….surely there’s 11 in 10!!!!!!!
I’d love you to be may pay clerk,
did you kids ever ask dad for $10 to go out, and you gave them $11???
————–
btw –
I DO realise, than, if year zero is counted, then, the first decade was concluded at the end of year 9. If year zero is NOT counted, then year 10 is the conclusion of a decade. Therefore, is the 8th decade of the 20th century concluded at the end of 1989 or 1990? But, that then, is a whole different question.
Millster said | June 13th 2008 @ 11:54am | Report comment
Michael C – regarding your “Sydney Centric Anti-AFL Attitudes”…..
When are you and your mates going to realise that WE DON’T DISLIKE AFL. In fact we probably don’t mind it at all for what it is. It’s just that we like some other things better, and also live in a city where there is perspective, and where AFL is not the whole world from Thursday morning tipping to Monday evening post-match analysis every week in winter.
You don’t have to be so defensive. Just because AFL is not the be-all-and-end-all for us doesn’t mean we are all against you.
Koala Bear said | June 13th 2008 @ 11:58am | Report comment
Michael C comrade,
You said it “as if anyone in AFL land cares two hoots about the RL World Cup.” You have the hide to tell everyone else to have respect for the Marn Grook code and show nil to others … Why not respect each others big day.. This Hybrid match means F*all and has no future; so why put it head to head with a code that has traditions in the two northern states when it could have been played and better received in SA, TAS, and WA, so get off your high horse and do as you preach..
~~~~~~~
KB
John Ryan said | June 13th 2008 @ 12:02pm | Report comment
What we disagree about is the fact of whether you agree with yours and the AFLsyes belief that 1859 had anything to do with aussie rules,as for something being codified by being written on the back of a piece of bark or paper or whatever,I accept it was a game of something but not Aussie rules.
Rugby union in its primitive form is more than likely what it was,what it boils down to is whether you believe what I regard as a BS if they had this 150th in 8 yrs time when I think the first actual Australian bit was added fine with me I believe it was the bounced ball.
But kindly spare me the crocodile tears,about the cuddly AFL just wants to be nice to everyone and they are misunderstood,the AFL to me is a taxpayer bludging protected game who carry on like spoilt kids if they dont get there way,and I played the Game in School watched it with my dad when I was a kid in WA,the game now is just a slightly harder version of Baskerball,and by the time the AFL finishes it will have a hoop on the point post for a slam dunk.
Thats where we part company you believe the big lies I don’t
Michael C said | June 13th 2008 @ 12:03pm | Report comment
Millster –
I hold no grudge with folk such as yourself. Unfortunately, you and your attitude is not overly common herein.
Although, I’d like to point out that my main memory of working in Brisbane for a while back in early ‘98 was Wendall Sailor this, and Wendall Sailor that……..those poor folk had soooo little perspective. The NRL week is pretty full as well, included 2 games on a Friday and a Monday night match, plus attempting to slot in 3 SoO matches, the odd halfway meaningful international fixture……
now – - gee, we are children of the seasons – - and Melbourne has 4 very distinct seasons (as is the want for a nice temperate climate). So – - we actually tend to have greater perspective than some, because, we only have a relatively short ‘football’ season. Certainly by comparison to the EPL……..how many rounds, how many teams, how many divisions…….and for the Australian soccer hardliners who lap all that up, want an expanded and longer domestic season……….effectively have available some form of soccer at anytime from anywhere……..
and you tell me that I need a bit more perspective……….I’m quite happy to have my boutique game that doesn’t bombard me 24/7 365 days a year. I embrace the cricket season………except that the wretched cricketers don’t like nice soft cooch grass ‘cos it slows the run of the ball…..
I’ve actually, unlike many of the antagonists on here, I’ve actually tried to expand my horizons, I’ve researched facts, figures, opinons and the like. If I don’t have a supportable opionion on an issue – - I try not to simply berate, I’ll look into it……..we had a lot of that from our previous premier …….”I’ll look into it”……….
Michael C said | June 13th 2008 @ 12:18pm | Report comment
John Ryan -
thank you for actually stating something.
So – - do you believe the Melbourne Football Club has no right to celebrate their 150th year?
Can we agree that Melbourne Football Club was established in 1859.
And that they wrote down a list of 10 rules – - with NOT one single reference to off-side.
- – - – -
can we agree that the 1845 rules written by students at the school of Rugby, numbering about 35 rules, of which about 14 speicifically mention ‘off-side’ – - – that we might expect that if the game to be played in Melbourne were to be effecively a game of Rugby then it might well have some reference to ‘off-side’
- — – -
can we agree that if the various schools, and school masters – - had all been from a Rugby school game style background – - then, perhaps the Rugby school rules would have been adopted outright.
- – - –
can we agree actually, that the whole reason the Melbourne lads HAD to write up rules was that at that point, it was impossible to conduct a proper match, to achieve agreement upon the rules and game style. That while certainly some attempted to play a rugby school style game, that yet others were attempting to play more kicking style games…………that’s why they had to write their own rules……
…..that were written in 1859.
Yes – - Ballarat, Geelong and Castlemaine put down rules too……
and in 1866 they absolutely and officially had all come into line.
Similarly,
we know that the London rules of 1863 were NOT soccer as we know it. That it wasn’t unti the mid 1870s that, with Sheffield falling into line, that the new version of hybrid rules were in place to take that game forward.
Do you see me begrudge the 1863 date?
Even the fact that the majority of those in attendance at the first meeting of the FA subsequently disbanded or took up Rugby style football.
At least, in the AFL/VFL history, all those early clubs remained true to their ‘code’.
But – - you can take your ‘more than likely’ interpretation and base your bar room standard argument on that and satisfy yourself. You’ll never be convinced by arguments so long as there is a Sean Fagan thread of interpretation you can grasp hold of (oh well, better at least than a Roy Masters thread that KB keeps clutching.
)
- – — – -
btw – -
Rugby Union -
I often feel the soccer folk have almost sought to define Rugby Union, so as to claim an ascendancy. i.e 1863 vs 1871 is it?
I guess my query always is, did Guys Hospital for example use a proper set of rules, i.e. did they perhaps have a copy of the 1845 Rugby School rules – - I don’t know. I just reckon the soccer folk have tried a few times to manipulate history to their benefit.
Michael C said | June 13th 2008 @ 12:28pm | Report comment
KB -
I do believe the hybrid game IS NOT being played up in Sydney.
Ask about availability of ground.
Not available.
Fine. Let GAA know it can’t be done.
Hold 2nd match at Subiaco where it works well anyway.
End of Story.
why, oh why, are the RL tryhards going on and on about some attempt to rain on their parade?
I still don’t fully understand how it would have any impact.
The RL heartland is Sydney, NSW represents 33% of Aust population. Sydney is the biggest city. It IS NRL heartland.
All this does is exposes one or more of the following :
a huge inferiority complext
a huge waft of fear
and a huge attempt to gain free publicity
Now – - how many weeks must be untouchable on the NRL calendar?
any week leading up to a SoO?
lead up to the GF,
lead up to the WC,
lead up to any other international…..
…surely it’s a robust enough game in the heartland that EVEN IF the IR game had gone ahead, that it would barely raise a blip on the radar of RL followers geared up for the RL WC.
And – - did we hear the slightly more mature ARU complain about the IR game in 2003 before the Aust v Ireland RU WC match?
No.
Because, it simply helped add to the whole party good time atmosphere and probably helped engage AFL followers MORE into what was going on with the likes of the Irish out here enjoying BOTH the IR game, the RU WC AND the Melb Cup carnival………..
perhaps Melbourne just lacks perspective……..is why we can handle it.
Redb said | June 13th 2008 @ 1:35pm | Report comment
John Ryan, KB,
if you dont beleive in the 150 years for footy that’s fine – free country. Just like it is fine for true AFL fans to celebrate our unique Australian game especially in Melbourne.
Most of you suggest that its a massive conspiracy by the AFL ‘Reich’ to hoodwink us poor locals into thinking the sun rises and sets at the MCG (well it does actually in a sporting sense – you blokes miss out on the G
). I travel around Australia as much as anyone, more than most actually and there is bias inherent in all places and ignorance about other places. Stereotypes are rampant, some like thsoe about Collingwood are true 
Bagging Michael C is fine , he’s a big boy (so I’ve heard
), but KB in particular has been banging on about the 150 years for so long he needs to be called out for continuing to peddle ‘his’ view to the enth degree.
I realise the Roar is light on for AFL fans and people from Melbourne but just because there are more folk from other places/codes does not mean your perspectives aren’t biased.
Redb
Koala Bear said | June 13th 2008 @ 2:00pm | Report comment
Comrade Michael C,
Is that true — the hybrid game is not being played in Sydney..?? Well then this discussion has been pointless… Are you sure..? I thought it was going to be played on the same day as the RL show piece at the ANZ after being refused and rightly so in my opinion, the SCG just 500 metres or so from the SFS. Well then I feel relieved… You see we can all work together if we put our heads together and respect each and others preferred code with out the crap.. Although the ROAR would be a total bore to visit if we all just exchanged pleasantries..
Redb,
I had a go at him (RM) for peddling the lies that came out of the OFFSIDERS program about the $60 WC bid and fired a rocket to Bazza Cassidy and recieved a sheepish response almost admitting they made a grave error in a non committal way, as to say that their information came from the Melbourne press .. Say no more 
I am just supporting one of my favourite New South Welshman RL commentators, who has exposed some mistruths .. As you well know. I just like to keep everyone honest..
~~~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | June 13th 2008 @ 2:04pm | Report comment
That should be $60 million WC bid..
~~~~~~~
KB
Millster said | June 13th 2008 @ 2:15pm | Report comment
Michael C – not a debating point but just something that brought a smile and nod to me in one of your earlier posts.
“24/7, 365 days of the year” is, I totally agree a problem in that it devalues things. In that respect I’m surprised to hear you speak of looking forward to the cricket season. I should start by admitting that its a sport that I don’t like much anyway. But at least some years back I looked forward to it in the short summer burst as something a bit different. Nowadays it seems like there is some big test series, some Twenty20 slog-fest or something in between happening pretty much all the time. I think the really big games in cricket have been devalued as a result. I think the same, to a lesser extent, of Rugby Union.
I think the rush for ratings and hype, along with the corollary of that – which is the fear of any ‘gap’ when your code doesn’t have ’something big’ on – is taking away some of the magic of those pinnacle events in all sports.
Michael C said | June 13th 2008 @ 2:18pm | Report comment
KB -
interesting, isn’t it, the way the media seems to be able to get away with putting out little mistruths and suddenly they grow legs.
Happens in a lot of ways.
It’s actually pretty scary.
btw – re the INternational Rules matches -
you need to remember, that these games had been put indefinitely on the backburner. And, it was only via negotiations earlier this year that the GAA and AFL (I think they had an important get together at or around the time of the match over in Abu Dhabi) got together and, suddenly, the games were potentially back on the agenda to the point that come early/mid May, the AFL suddenly had to find slots for not just one (as the AFL initially ‘offered’), but two matches (as the GAA insisted on 2 games, to make the trip fully worthwhile).
http://203.210.126.158/Home08/NewsArticleNew/tabid/281/Default.aspx?newsId=21091
Friday, May 30, 2008 – 5:00 PM
Source: ABC News
Australia will host Ireland in a two-game International rules series in October.
The first game will be played in Perth on October 24, with the second game in Melbourne a week later.
It is really inconcievable that the AFL would have deliberately sought to play one of these games in Sydney, I would think they would’ve been pleased to have the door shut on it, but, because the GAA asked, well, the AFL therefore inquired of the venues they utilise in Sydney.
The MCG date of Oct 31 had been pretty well locked away for a while, so, there really was only a pretty narrow window of opportunity to slot in a game before or after, and, certainly, to hold it any later than the day inquired about, WOULD have directly conflicted with the RL WC – -
anyway, at the end of the day – - -really, there WAS no story, never SHOULD have been a story……and, yet, the mischevious NRL friendly media have given it false legs and generated more anti AFL sentiment and more free publicity for the RL WC.
crafty devils!!!!!
——-
btw – - – it’d be a shame for anyone to check the facts first, but, then, if the media either can’t be bothered (that would make them incompetant), or don’t check the appropriate facts (being freely available, that would make them, incompetant) or choose NOT to (that would make them at best negligent) or deliberate mis-represent the truth to suit a given agenda (that would make them untrustworthy, and would actually mean that MOST news should be regarded as advertorials).
- – - – irony being that poor old John Laws got hauled over hot coals for the cash for comment.
I know, you have your own gripe about a potential contra deal in the AFL broadcast rights (where as, I’d thinki it’s more setting an agreed amount of non-core coverage, with a fluid allowance for ‘format’ given a 5 year time frame is a pretty long time).
cheers
Michael C said | June 13th 2008 @ 2:23pm | Report comment
Millster -
I’m very glad you mention cricket.
I once had Foxtel.
I thought how cool it’ll be to watch cricket all year ’round, from England etc.
But – the reality.
Too much.
I prefer feasts now and then, rather than year ’round feasting, (that just leaves you fat, dumb and overwhelmed!!)
that’s why, unlike some Rugby and Soccer tragics I know who would watch on tele the ARC matches or the youth league matches – - for me, (and, I stress, via young family – I have been ‘trained’, or re-programmed), I’m now able to break away from the grips of the tv screen.
But, when I do sit down, with a Guinness, and some nibbles, and put my feet up – - well, then I damn well enjoy it.
And, so, by getting rid of Foxtel. I have effectively retained a nice balance of a few games of footy a week should I choose to watch any or all of them in part or full, and, then, a few months on, test and ODI matches of the Australian summer.
Ah……the simple life.
Works a treat.
Keeps the ‘passion’ alive.
Redb said | June 13th 2008 @ 2:33pm | Report comment
MC,
When i first read this article I thought why on earth would the AFL play a revamped IR series in Sydney??, surely they need to rebuild with traditional areas like Melbourne and Perth first. stinks like BS, probably is.
What goes around comes around – plenty of spin from News Ltd papers, i think even our good mate and AFL fanatic Roy masters in the SMH gave it run for a laugh.
Redb
Koala Bear said | June 13th 2008 @ 2:36pm | Report comment
Millster,
think of the NSW Sheffield Cricket team as the Le Bleu..
Comrade C,
Cheers …………..
Michael C said | June 13th 2008 @ 3:08pm | Report comment
Redb – (just for interest, I decided to look a little critically at Roy Masters offering)
a quick review of how Roy Masters presented this non-story
How the AFL tried to steal league’s World Cup thunder
Roy Masters | June 4, 2008
AN AFL approach to stage an Australia-Ireland international rules match at the Sydney Cricket Ground
okay, this is okay, how does he finish the sentance?
in competition with the opening ceremony of rugby league’s centenary World Cup has escalated the scheduling conflict between the nation’s two major football codes and threatens to erupt into an all-out turf war.
hmmmm, pretty under whelming really Mr.Masters, care to go out on a limb a bit??
AFL boss Andrew Demetriou pressured the SCG Trust
‘pressured’ – - or, asked about ground availability at the request of the GAA.
to host the hybrid rules match one or two days before the October 26 World Cup opening ceremony and an Australia-New Zealand match at the adjacent Sydney Football Stadium.
OKay, so, in ‘competition’ with, wasn’t even going to be on the same day?!?!?! So, how is a ‘hybrid’ rules game that most people regard as a meaningless distraction – - and that’s the attitude of those who actually just enjoy it because it IS a meaningless distraction!!!
Confirming the approach, SCG Trust general manager Jamie Barclay said: “Demetriou wanted to play the international rules match at the SCG on either the Friday or the Saturday before the Sunday World Cup opening ceremony and opening match, but we already had signed a contract with the Rugby League International Federation to stage their events. On that basis, we were unable to do it.”
Okay, apparently, and, by asking, certainly implies a desire that if available, a game MIGHT have been scheduled……but, really, what’s the big deal up to this point?
Well – the point is illustrated by the rubbish Mr.Masters includes -
How the AFL tried to steal league’s World Cup thunder
Roy Masters | June 4, 2008
AN AFL approach to stage an Australia-Ireland international rules match at the Sydney Cricket Ground in competition with the opening ceremony of rugby league’s centenary World Cup has escalated the scheduling conflict between the nation’s two major football codes and threatens to erupt into an all-out turf war.
ARL chairman Colin Love, who is also the World Cup tournament director, said: “I would have been extremely disappointed if the Trust had not rejected the application and I would be extremely disappointed if it was the aim of the AFL to rain on our parade.
Now, is Mr Love indicating that the SCG Trust is perhaps making policy at the bidding of the ARL to attempt to make things difficult for the AFL????
oh, and, he’ll just drop in the line about ‘rain on our parade’……although, he’s certainly not suggesting it, just, he thought it appropriate to suggest that IF THAT were the case, that, he’d be disappointed.
What a crock!!!!
“After all, it is the centenary of rugby league in Australia and we are staging an opening ceremony and a major match involving our trans-Tasman rivals.”
So – - if this event is so ruddy important, how the heck – if it HAD of ocurred, could such a meaningless event as a IR game have possibly rained on the parade, as Mr.Love put it??? How, How??? Does he think so poorly of his own RL WC, and the opening ceremony of it, that it could all be upstaged so easily?????
Masters then goes on to present
NRL chief operating officer Graham Annesley claims an approach was made from Fox Sports, which telecasts both codes, to change the Titans match to the following day to accommodate the AFL.
but, we just get into ‘he said’, ‘I said’ type stuff. Nothing admissable in a court of law!!!!
A defiant Annesley said: “Demetriou says no approach was made from the AFL to Fox Sports but I’ve got no doubt a call was made. That call to Fox Sports certainly led to a call to us from Fox Sports asking us to change the time of the match. But the Titans prefer Saturday night, rather than Sunday matches, and we refused to change.”
No chance that Foxtel might ever operate in isolation and self interest? No chance that Foxtel might ever instigate something themselves?
then we get all the nice little lines dropped:
branding the code a minor league
“They are No.2 in the areas of south-east Queensland and western Sydney, where the full-on assault is, the areas where they are attacking rugby league,” Annesley said.
and then he goes on with Michael Searle about the ‘our draw was out first’ line……which, we all know is a partial furphy because the NRL draw is fluid until 6 weeks in advance, but, perhaps, yes, the AFL might have fixtured the games on a different week – - – but, in reality, the AFL, are always going to conflict either with a Titans home match, or a Broncos home match or a Cowboys home match for that measure — so, for SEarle to say, oh, just schedule it another week…………yeah right!!!!!
Now – - it would be nice if the codes could co-exist a little. Again, as I’ve pointed out, we get SoO, Union tests, soccer one off matches etc dotted throughout the AFL season, it works. It’s fine. It makes us a ‘richer’ sporting environment. IN a lot of respects, it’s RL that looks like it’s itching for a fight. I wonder if Roy Masters rang Andrew Demetriou for a comment??? There’s no indication that he did. The references to Andrew Demetriou are all made by OTHER people. Gee, Mr.Masters – - -any chance of actually going to the source?!?!!?!
So – - Roy Masters was being pretty provocative,, mischievous, and perhaps deliberately negligent in providing a single sided and unsubstantiate story based on hear say, supposition (that’s being kind) and personal opinion and unsupported claims, and all the while pandering to his NRL demographic…….
which is what journos do,
however, RM has claimed a multi code, multi city ‘wisdom’, which some take as meaning that he is actually fair minded and even handed.
Nah, couldn’t be further from the truth. He is very much down the line RL. And, that’s fine, that’s his passion and his readership.
However, as with all code specific journos, please KB, and any one else, – - – do a bit of your own research, figure things out for yourself.
Michael C said | June 13th 2008 @ 3:30pm | Report comment
Roy Masters other little piece of pot stirring -
The tyranny of distance
Roy Masters | April 28, 2008
AFL boasts being 150 years old, a spurious claim considering that the first match at Yarra Park in August 1858 was between two schoolboy teams, supervised by four teachers who went to Rugby School in England.
when, in fact, the main problem in Melbourne at the time was that the masters of the 3 main schools ALL DID NOT come from the same background, same city or even same country. i.e. from England, Scotland and the Channel Isles.
I have no idea what drug Mr.Masters is on in making such a false claim.
And this included the Scot, Dr.John MacAdam (famous for giving his name to the macadamia nut, as well as co-presiding over that famous match along with one Thomas Wills)
“Tom Wills was Melbourne Grammar’s nomination and by then he had become secretary of the Melbourne Cricket Club. Scotch’s nominee was a Dr John McAdam, a Glasgow University medical graduate, and a chemistry master at Scotch at the time.”
source : http://www.scotch.vic.edu.au/Gscot/GSSep01/p32cegg.htm
So – - Roy Masters – - has recent history of poor research, or, just deliberate attempts to discredit the AFL…….
……perhaps I should suggest to Masters that the NSWRL 100th birthday occurs in the 101st season, and see how he handles that…………..but, in reality, the NSWRL was formed in 1907, so, when he spoke of the 100th birthday, he was talking about the ‘birthday’ of the 1st match in April 1908, but, again, since that match WAS played in April, 1908, then, should a commemerative match have been played every year to celebrate – - then, this years game, including the first game, would be the 101st. Fair enough though, the 100th commemerative match………
Redb said | June 13th 2008 @ 3:46pm | Report comment
Masters seems to be a good rugby league writer and critic, but when he chooses to comment on AFL its very much aimed at creating conspiracy theories for gullible punters to lap up. He often gives soccer the same treatment.
Redb
Midfielder said | June 14th 2008 @ 1:07am | Report comment
Back on topic
from the age
Bend it like Kevin
Dan Silkstone
June 14, 2008
KEVIN Rudd has long known politics is sport. Now it seems Australia’s 26th prime minister has come to understand the reverse is also true. In recent months, the dominant sporting code in Australia has been political football. A new government has meant new priorities. There have been winners and losers. For soccer it has been a triumph. Australia, so recently thrilled just to attend a World Cup, now wants to host one. Last week, the Football Federation Australia announced a new Gold Coast franchise owned by billionaire Clive Palmer would join an A-league that has outstripped expectations in its first three years.
The announcement means two of the Australia’s four richest men will own soccer clubs (FFA chairman Frank Lowy is also majority shareholder in Sydney FC). Another rich-lister, TV billionaire Bruce Gordon, is rumoured to be interested in running a Wollongong team. It all makes Melbourne Victory and its owner, Geoff Lord, (valued at $115 million in 2005) look almost anaemic.
Soccer has come a long way in a short time and Canberra has noticed. This week the Socceroos have been training and playing in Dubai and Qatar. But as Australia’s squad went through its paces, the Government was not far away. An Austrade delegation accompanied the team, keen to use the green-and-gold presence to open doors for Australian businesses in a series of lunches. Foreign Minister Stephen Smith watched from the stands.
It is a small example of the nexus forming between soccer, money, power and politics in Australia — a nexus that has long been understood in the rest of the world.
Soccer is global and it is also big business. It’s not hard to see the appeal for an internationalist diplomat-turned-prime minister. Korean Football Federation president Chung Mong-joon moonlights as a Korean MP and a candidate for president of his nation. He is also global chairman of the Hyundai group and vice-president of FIFA. Across Asia and Europe, Africa and the Americas, powerful men and women take an interest. So too now does Kevin Rudd.
As the Socceroos trained last month in Sydney, the Prime Minister was front and centre, reportedly not recognising our premier footballing export, Harry Kewell, but delighted to accept a green-and-gold shirt with Kevin 18 on the back.
The number relates to Australia’s audacious bid to host the World Cup in 2018 — a bid that is very much a partnership between the FFA and the Government.
The FFA recently named 14 “football ambassadors” charged with boosting the game. Two, Kate Ellis and Stephen Conroy, are government ministers. When The Age reported last week that Australia’s World Cup bid could cost taxpayers $60 million without much chance of success, Ellis fired off a letter to the editor defending the FFA.
Key people in soccer say the new Government “gets” the sport and its potential in a way the old one never did. As a diplomat, Rudd spent time in Sweden and China, both countries in which the round-ball game is popular. In the final Howard years, Lowy used his profile to win the confidence of government — getting support for his plan to refashion a sport wracked by division and corruption. Under Labor, he has sold the Government a vision for the future.
“In all the discussions we have had with the Government, they see that football can play an important role in engaging with our neighbours, building cultural ties and assisting in the development of health and infrastructure,” FFA chief executive Ben Buckley says. “It can play a significant role in helping countries engage with each other and understand each other. Football can reach out to more countries than other sports.”
Another FFA ambassador is broadcaster George Negus. The lifelong soccer fan was on the board of governing body Soccer Australia in the 1990s, fighting vainly to drum up support or interest from government and business.
“I always said we were a sleeping giant,” he says. “We needed people to realise that we were part of an international phenomenon, not a sport. Football is larger than anything in the world. It is the language of global influence, economic and political clout and this Government has realised that. Wherever I travel, the only two constants are football and Coca-cola.”
Former prime minister John Howard was a rugby man. Now things have changed. One of the first moves by the Labor Government was to junk a $25 million Howard election promise to build a rugby training academy in Queensland. At the same time, to rugby’s consternation, Rudd had pledged $32 million to soccer, money duly delivered.
“We do have a fantastic relationship with the Federal Government, and we are delighted that they have been strong supporters of the game,” Buckley says. “To be successful in a World Cup bid, you must have a very strong partnership with government … We have a shared view that a World Cup would be of significant benefit to Australia that goes way beyond sport.”
This new unity of purpose was on show last month, when FIFA president Sepp Blatter travelled to Sydney for the governing body’s annual congress. Rudd was there again, pressing the bid in Blatter’s ear. When it comes to lobbying high-powered guests, nobody can bend it like Kevin.
It is a bid that will take years, cost taxpayers tens of millions of dollars and for which the bookmakers have Australia a distant seventh favourite behind cashed-up rivals such as England, Russia, China and the US. So why are we bothering?
“The World Cup is the single biggest sporting event in the world, and that brings with it economic benefits, social benefits and international prestige benefits,” says Buckley. “It has been proven to work effectively for other nations.”
Ex-Socceroo and now SBS face of football Craig Foster agrees. Foster says hosting the World Cup would change everything, but just bidding will help. “In the end I believe that football can and will one day take over the sporting landscape of Australia,” he says. “This game has a huge role to play in the future of Australia and this Federal Government has been more progressive than before in realising it. Kevin Rudd clearly understands the potential of football above any other sport to engage with our regional partners. It was something that John Howard was slow to grasp and never really did.”
Soccer, Foster says, has been disorganised and slow to capitalise on its advantages, but not now. “We haven’t been savvy in leveraging the power we had,” he says. “It’s changing. Frank Lowy clearly has a new level of political knowhow that the sport has lacked. And he brings credibility with those in power.”
Buckley points to the impact the Socceroos’ participation in Germany had on the sport and says a home World Cup would be a quantum leap. He shies away from Foster’s prediction that the event would lift soccer to the nation’s premier code but also takes issue with the idea that we start the race as a rank outsider.
“I’m not sure we are coming from a fair way behind. It is a very competitive field, but Australia has some wonderful assets to host an event of this magnitude,” he says. Among them are stable security, excellent sporting facilities and tourist infrastructure and a record of hosting big events. Just bidding will create momentum and excitement for the game, he says.
“But that’s not the reason we are doing it,” Buckley stresses. “We are confident we can put forward a very compelling bid, and the legacy it will leave if we are successful will be very far reaching.”
PricewaterhouseCoopers is compiling an audit of Australian facilities to gain a better idea of the cost of the bid. It will be finished in early August and be presented to state and federal governments.
The process started in October when FIFA announced it would get rid of a policy that decreed the tournament would be rotated across continents. Australia, building clout and credibility under Lowy and longing to make a statement, was no longer counted out from bidding by the 2002 World Cup in Japan/Korea, a fellow member of the Asian confederation. Lowy wanted to bid and went to Canberra to meet the Howard government and Labor. Whatever Rudd heard, he liked it. In February the new PM jumped on board the bid. A month later he won the involvement of state premiers.
According to figures supplied by the FFA, Australia’s rugby World Cup in 2003 had a positive economic impact of $289 million. The 2000 Olympics were much larger, producing about $6 billion in TV rights, tourism, ticket sales and improved facilities.
For the Japan-Korea World Cup estimates range between $7 billion and $27 billion.
Bigger than an Olympics, the cup would be hosted in eight cities, feature 32 teams, support staff and fans. The 2006 World Cup brought 2 million tourists to Germany, employed 85,000 people and reached a cumulative TV audience of 26.3 billion.
Now here’s the key bit and the argument the FFA will be making to FIFA delegates from around the world, who will vote in three years to decide the tournament hosts. Of the TV viewers clapping eyes on Germany, the largest numbers — 34% — were in Asia. While most TV money still comes from Europe, Asian power is rising. Rudd likes to speak of the “Asia-Pacific century”. Nowhere is it more apt than in soccer.
So what will your money pay for? Much of it is lobbying. As the bid starts later this year, expect to see international FIFA delegates touring Australian cities, stadiums and luxury hotels. The bid process also involves a sort of benign pork-barrelling, offering funds to developing nations to be spent on infrastructure and sporting programs in the hope of winning votes. A decision will not be reached until mid-2011.
State governments will be expected to foot most of the bill for stadium renovations and construction but will be left with better facilities. Buckley is adamant the bid machinery should be lean. It will be run from within the FFA by a handful of staff.
Australia has already put in the sole bid for the 2015 Asian Cup, a tournament that could be viewed as a dress rehearsal for the big one. Hopes are high FIFA will award the 2018 and 2022 cups at the same time, doubling Australia’s chances of landing the event.
A FFA source says delegates who attended the recent Sydney FIFA congress had two major associations with Australia. They all recalled the success of the Sydney Olympics and many had heard about and were intrigued by Rudd’s apology to the stolen generations. It seems the football world might be as interested in Australia’s Prime Minister as he is in it.
Soccer has many new friends, only some in high places, but all welcomed. Lowy and Buckley are trying to capitalise on the goodwill, while old hands such as Negus and Foster stand up proudly and dare to dream. “We are the only continent on the planet never to host the biggest sports tournament in the world,” Foster says. “Why shouldn’t we get it?”
WORLD CUP BID
■ON FIELD 32 teams, hosted by eight cities.
■BID COST FFA denies reports it could be $60 million but says it will be tens of millions. England reportedly spending £30 million ($A62 million) on a bid.
■CONTENDERS Signalling plans to bid are: England, Russia, the US, China, Spain/Portugal, Belgium/Netherlands/Luxembourg.
■DECISION FIFA delegates to vote in June 2011.
■PROBLEM With the next two World Cups in South Africa and Brazil, Australia must combat the idea that 2018 should be Europe’s turn.
■SOLUTION FIFA has indicated it may award the 2018 and 2022 tournaments at the same time. Australia says it would bid for both.
■FUNDING Labor promised $32 million for soccer in 2007 election campaign, double the amount committed by Howard government. Federal and state governments would provide extra funding.
Dan Silkstone is an Age reporter.
Koala Bear said | June 14th 2008 @ 10:43am | Report comment
Millster,
What happened ?… I went out to the kitchen to make myself a cup of tea and …. bleep.. bleep.. bleep.. bleep.. I hope the Italy match up will be better.. I want revenge..!!!
~~~~~~~
KB
Midfielder said | June 14th 2008 @ 10:51am | Report comment
KB
KB …………. revenge ………….. Dr Who ………………. Italy ………….. crush kill destory, ………………..
jimbo said | June 14th 2008 @ 10:59am | Report comment
Marn Grookers,
Kevin 07 is running free anger management classes if any of you are interested.
Cheers
jimbo said | June 14th 2008 @ 11:17am | Report comment
The estimate of about $50-60M AUD for a WC bid is about right, but at this stage we are not putting in a bid, just doing a feasibility study and sounding out our allies and enemies.
If FFA does decide to go with the bid after that, then the Federal Govt won’t be paying the full $50-60M.
Their policy is that the fundees must match the government’s contribution dollar for dollar so Kevin 07 will only chip in less than half that amount.
Which is about one tenth of what they are going to put in for a new AFL park in Perth.
jimbo said | June 14th 2008 @ 11:50am | Report comment
KB,
I do think Doris looks great in Hot pants and the moustache does suit her, don’t you think.
Better start selling more raffke tickets mate, the WC bid looks like hotting up (so to speak).
BTW, I’ve lined up Engelbert Humperdinck for the Gala Prawn Night. Just got the get the drunken old fart to sing . . .
Cheers
Midfielder said | June 14th 2008 @ 11:59am | Report comment
jimbo
LOL Marn Grookers Kevin 07 is running free anger management classes if any of you are interested.
But I warn you the Sith are skillful at using the dark side of the force. The Sith will not attend and will seek to overturn K07, we must be aware of their moves.
Midfielder said | June 14th 2008 @ 12:20pm | Report comment
Jimbo KB Norm Towser Mill
To assist against the Sith I add just a few words from the following.
Draw you own conclusions as to who is what in the song,
Melanie Lay Down (Candles in the Rain)
Lay down lay down lay it all down
Let your white birds smile
At the ones who stand and frown
We all had caught the same disease
and we all sang the songs of peace
some came to sing, some came to pray
Some came to keep the dark away
So raise candles high ’cause if you don’t
We could stay black against the sky
Oh oh raise them higher again
And if you do we could stay dry against the rain
Let your white birds smile
At the ones who stand and frown
Koala Bear said | June 14th 2008 @ 12:22pm | Report comment
Jimbo,
sob.
yes Doris does scrub up well when she puts her mind to it .. Why just the other day she beat Norm and me in Indian arm wrestling; those biceps of hers are enormous … One thing you have to admit when wearing a Marn Grook (Grooky) black and white striped singlet bequeathed to her by my late and dearest friend and neighbour.. Magpie.. (btw I know he would laugh if he was reading this from above). Norms is still one of her favourites with an eye on you after dumping me..
~~~~~~
KB
Norm said | June 14th 2008 @ 5:01pm | Report comment
KB
jimbo is doing a sterling job as CRSL Social Director, we’d better be careful Jupiters don’t make him a better offer – maybe Doris & the girls can indulge in some mud wrestling in the sportsmens bar.
Midfielder
the Sith are dangerous but the force will win – even if it does cost $60M.
jimbo said | June 14th 2008 @ 5:57pm | Report comment
Norm, KB, and others
here’s a preview of the stage show with Doris and Humpy, hope you like it.
I think Doris looks better with the moe though and I’ll ask her to grow it back for the show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1WZ3ulQt50&feature=related
Middfielder,
May the 4th be with us.
Is that what Melanie was singing?
The White Birds are obviously those sweet, fair ladies from the CRSL Ladies Auxiliary.
Koala Bear said | June 14th 2008 @ 7:44pm | Report comment
Jimbo,
I have just recieved a CD from Comrade Paul from Siberia and he has organised a troupe of his gals now heading this way to teach the Ladies Auxiliary the finer points of mud wrestling.. As much as I like your Engelbert Humperdinck for the Gala Prawn Night; I put it to the Larrrds in the Sportsman’s Bar and Paul’s show was unanimously voted in by them.. I’m not sure if Norm had anything to do with it or not; I somehow suspect he did as he has fallen head over heals with the troupe captain..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfBfyO21Ncw
But as fate would have it Doris the Dragon over ruled us and your show will go ahead as planned on the proviso that she does not have to shave off her mustache..
~~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | June 14th 2008 @ 8:58pm | Report comment
Hmmm,
credibility failures??:
from Midfielders contribution.
“For the Japan-Korea World Cup estimates range between $7 billion and $27 billion.”
Roight,………a $20 BILLION difference there. Gee, $20 Billion, how about providing an accurate estimate.
As indicated, Japan got stuff all of what they hoped for – - perhaps a too mature economy and all their major businesses were firmly established. Korea, a less mature economy, with less mature industrial/tech business (on a world scale) – - and, Sth Korea seemed to benefit BOTH directly and indirectly. I figure that range of $7B-$27B is perhaps the range of ‘direct’ benefit (Japan ~$3B, Korea ~$4B) versus ‘indirect’ benefit (Japan, stuff all, Korea, maybe $15B).
There is NO given, you don’t just magically benefit by $20 billion, you need to actually be in a position industrially to build upon it. I severely doubt that Australia HAS the right manufacturing base that can capitalise – - like those in South Korea did,……….., after all, we don’t make wide screen tvs, we don’t make mobile phones, we import all that stuff from ……. South Korea.
So, if Japan could only really benefit by about $3-4Billion,……., how is Australia better placed to do better than Japan????
jimbo said | Today | Report comment
The estimate of about $50-60M AUD for a WC bid is about right,
okay, KB – - are you escaping on a technicality, that the Govt will only pay HALF of the $60million,………..given that you kept maintaining a cost of $30m?
btw Jimbo, $30m, about 1/10th of the new rectangle venue for Melbourne that has NO Union team, one RL team that doesn’t need one that big and one soccer team that might find it too small…….except, when the 2nd team comes in and the supporter base gets split………
jimbo said | June 14th 2008 @ 9:36pm | Report comment
No No KB,
we may be at the arse end of the earth, but its a great country and we are a bleedin’ democracy, so if the blokes want mud wrestling with their prawns then its mud wrestling.
Wait a minute, I’ve got a brilliant idea . . .
There’s a gang of Fijian ladies in town this week for the Hula Hoop World Cup.
I’m sure I could convince them to take on your Russian Girls at Mud Wrestling for the CRSL Ladies Auxiliary Trophy.
I’ll get Engelbert to referee the match totally starkers, except for a yellow ribbon tied ’round the old oak tree.
Mate, you’re a bloody genius . . .
Norm said | June 14th 2008 @ 10:41pm | Report comment
jimbo
prawns & bikini clad mud covered CRSL Ladies Auxiliary members – every man’s dream. Should be a super night. All the boys are coming, you,me, KB, Midfielder, Millister, Towser, Dave a few others & I think Jesse Fink said he will try & get there. Save a raw prawn for Michael C – it will make him feel better after Nth Melb get another belting. Which reminds me KB I think we should organise a ” guess the no. of prawns in the jar contest”. I already know which number I’ll nominate…..1858!!
Redb said | June 14th 2008 @ 10:45pm | Report comment
MC,
So Jimbo was the source of the $60m waste of money bid for 2018? Geez KB how embarassing.
Redb
Redb said | June 14th 2008 @ 10:51pm | Report comment
Midfielder,
never heard of Dan silkstone???? you didnt make this up or sumthing?
Maybe it was guest writer from Qatar using his ghost writer name – you know qatar that traditional rival of OZ.
yawn….oh but its world guppy qualifier
Redb
Midfielder said | June 14th 2008 @ 11:40pm | Report comment
Midfielder,
never heard of Dan silkstone???? you didnt make this up or sumthing?
Maybe it was guest writer from Qatar using his ghost writer name – you know qatar that traditional rival of OZ.
yawn….oh but its world guppy qualifier
Redb
Midfielder said | June 14th 2008 @ 11:44pm | Report comment
Redb
Link ….. sorry about posting twice blame the whiskey had a 1 all draw today, I was F…ed after the game run my arse off all day,
I have more pain than an AFL planner looking at football ……….. sorry blame the booze …….. but F I am score
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/06/13/1213321624649.html
Koala Bear said | June 15th 2008 @ 2:35pm | Report comment
■BID COST FFA denies reports it could be $60 million but says it will be tens of millions. England reportedly spending £30 million ($A62 million) on a bid.
Michael C,
I have copied and pasted Frank Lowy’s response to the lies that came out of the Marn Grook press (Age) and Dave has posted the Kate Ellis’s letter in response to the lies from the Marn Grook press and to add to that the England “reportedly” spending £30 million ($A62 million) on a bid. HAS NO official statement connected to it from the top England brass; so who really knows..? Therefore on that account maybe that is another Marn Grook lie. (I don’t know to be sure, but I will research to find the original source).
But more importantly how much is the taxpayer paying for the Marn Grook world cup, and where is the Australian team as hosts of the event? One would have thought that we would qualify automatically.? Don’t tell me we were knocked out in the qualifiers by Nauru… ? I shall do some research on that, to see if we need a foreign coach from Nauru to take over from that loser Kevin Sheedy … This guy can’t direct a choco vine over a backyard brick shite house..
PS.. Great win for Deans and the Wallabies… Aust. Marn Grook need a foreign Nauru Coach in my opinion; if we are going to make an impact on the world stage…
~~~~~~~~
KB
Redb said | June 15th 2008 @ 8:07pm | Report comment
KB,
If Kevin Sheedy is a loser – Johnny Warren was a loser. Simple.
Redb
Koala Bear said | June 15th 2008 @ 8:22pm | Report comment
If Kevin Sheedy was a winner then he would have more gongs and initials after his name than Johnny Warren .. Simple..
~~~~~~~
KB
Redb said | June 15th 2008 @ 9:02pm | Report comment
KB,
You have no idea, just like the AFL ANZAC day game where you had egg all over your face, especially after Peter Fitsimmons huge wrap shut you up.
You also have no idea about Kevin Sheedy and his contribution to Australian football and soceity particularly his vision for aboriginal footballers- so you may as well quit whilst your behind before you trip over your ignorance again.
You and your soccer hooligan mates attitudes to Australian football is a disgrace to the very foundations of this country of which Australian football played a huge part in various parts of it.
Redb
Michael C said | June 15th 2008 @ 9:31pm | Report comment
KB -
lot’s of millions to bid, irrespective, no doubt, on the basis of ALL else pertaining to FIFA World Cups, the estimated costs will ‘blow out’, and the forecast ‘benefits’ will be watered down.
$30m or $60m, or only $30m from Govt and $30m from the rego fees of 10 yr olds because one F.Lowy is still too stingy to fork out his own cash when instead he can get Joe Blow taxpayer to cover his personal (and age fading) dream.
Alas, KB,
Nauru might be best served by an expat Aust coach, however, there are nice examples of the growth of the game by virtue that the Canadian Northwind ARE actually coached by a native Canadian, who represented the country in the 2002 International Cup.
Likewise, the head coach of AFL South Africa is Mtutuzeli Hlomela, who has represented Sth Africa in both 2002 and 2005.
No idea who the coach of Nauru will be.
Redb -
don’t get drawn in by KB on Sheeds,
KB still resents Sheeds tongue in cheek jest about soccer once – - – which is total ignorance on KBs part to A. not realise it was a comment in jest, and B. to not realise that Sheeds was a fair student of all sports including soccer, and would have far greater idea of soccer than any soccer coach of AFL.
Because, soccer folk are completely self absorbed and pretend that there is NO other sport worth the time (even to the point of regarding the Olympics as a sideshow).
KB -
the Age – - FAirfax – - is hand in glove with soccer. You should know that. The SMH is the official paper and sponsor of SFC, and the Age is the official paper and sponsor of MVFC. The Age (and I presume SMH too) even produce a …..oh so popular…….HAL season preview magazine supplement.
So – - – don’t go the ‘Marn Grook press (Age) ‘ – - – you’ve really, really go no idea on this front. So, give it a rest.
by the way – - on the ‘give it a rest’ front:
It IS ONLY KB who refers to the AFL international cup development tournament as a ‘world cup’. So, give it a rest.
But, whilst on the topic -
could you please answer the following questions:
Are you aware of the Cricket ICC Trophy tournament for developing nations?
Are you aware that the ICC have a separate World Cup?
are you aware that you CAN have an international development tournament?
is it not perhaps MORE appropriate to recognise that it is a bit farcical and perhaps dangerous to play rank developmental amateurs against professionals – - – - as happens in the RU and RL world cups?
so – - – - please, answer me those questions and then illustrate where the AFL are going wrong in your eyes with their quaint little development tourney.
Michael C said | June 15th 2008 @ 9:46pm | Report comment
KB -
btw – - sadly or otherwise,
Johnny Warren is as relevant today as Weary Dunlop. He may have been a top bloke, or may not have. But – - it is mischievous of you to defame K.Sheedy (and then stick a jestful emoticon in), but, use for comparison a deceased, and reveared – by you – fellow. You’ve played you cards such that you effectively leave Redb no polite comeback.
Probably Redb and myself are too polite and decent minded to give back to you what you deserve.
So – - be careful about what cards you play, otherwise, you run the risk of all things being fair game, it’s not real flash to throw a lightening bolt and then hide being mums apron.
Norm said | June 15th 2008 @ 10:13pm | Report comment
Redb
…& you asked me if I’d lost my sense of humour!!!!!!!
Joe FC said | June 15th 2008 @ 10:41pm | Report comment
Redb
” You and your soccer hooligan mates attitudes to Australian football is a disgrace to the very foundations of this country of which Australian football played a huge part in various parts of it”
Let me put this in clear & unambiguous terms – I owe Aust Rules football absolutely nothing & I don’t know anybody who does.
jimbo said | June 15th 2008 @ 11:05pm | Report comment
Norm & KB,
sporting coup of this century . . .
the Tongan and Fijian girls have agreed to hold the Hoola Hoop World Cup final at the CRSL on our Gala Prawn Night.
Better still, they have agreed to play Hoola Hoops in bikinis, knee deep in mud.
Russian girls take on the winners.
Then Humpy does the Tie the Yellow Ribbon bit at the end.
Norm, nice idea about the “guess the no. of prawns in the jar” contest, but how long are we going to keep the prawns in the jar?
Might leave a fishy smell in the mud pit . . .
jimbo said | June 15th 2008 @ 11:52pm | Report comment
Michael C and Redb,
I know how fanatical AFL fans will be and I’m not surprised at all by your comments, but I find your posts disappointing and quite frankly un-Australian.
Do you really believe that bidding for the biggest sporting event in the World – the FIFA WC Finals, to be held in Australia would be a waste of money?
Do you really think that “soccer folk” are “hooligans” or “completely self absorbed and pretend that there is NO other sport”?
I’ll bet you two are very disappointed that the Footballroos have progressed to the final stage of Asian WC qualifiers. You were hoping that they would have had an embarrassing loss instead.
This is our national football team representing Australians across the world, every single one of us.
NO other sport?
I’ll tell you what sport I watched this week.
Wed – RL State of Origin.
Fri – NRL game.
Sat – flicked between the Swans game and the Wallabies v Ireland Rugby game.
Sun – Footballroos v Guitar, ANZ Netball and NRL game
I was thrilled when the Wallabies won the Rugby World Cups and the cricketers won the ashes and the Cricket World Cups.
Just as thrilled when Australia won the rights to hold the Olympics and the Rugby and Cricket World Cups in Australia and went along to some of the games in Sydney.
I have friends and family who love Rugby League, AFL and Rugby Union, but they’ll still watch an A-League game with me or a Footballroos game and were stoked when the Footballroos made it to the FIFA World Cup for the first time in 32 years.
No, I must agree with Joe FC – I owe AFL absolutely nothing – its just another Australian sport.
Redb said | June 16th 2008 @ 7:17am | Report comment
Jimbo,
“No, I must agree with Joe FC – I owe AFL absolutely nothing – its just another Australian sport.”
If you owe it nothing fine, why do spend so much time mocking the game, its supporters and its origins.
Frankly I owe soccer absolutely nothing. Soccer’s national team is no more important than our hockey or basketball national teams. Think about that in light of your comments on what you owe Australian football, soccer is just another sport.
Joe FC,
Comment wasn’t aimed at you, but if the shoe fits.
Norm,
yep lost the sense of humor. Australian football may not mean a lot of you blokes, but its means a lot to many Australians. In so called jest you claim “were only joking, why so serious” – well there is ample ammunition to bag and insult soccer, the game and its supporters.
If you blokes are so indifferent to Australian football then shut the hell up about the integrity of the game, respect it and move on.
Redb
Koala Bear said | June 16th 2008 @ 7:36am | Report comment
Redb and MC,
Well, well, well, it seems like I hit a nerve. All the football administrators were all fair game in past threads and posts from our Marn Grook posters, but can’t take it on the chin, when given back some of their own medicine… as For Kevin Sheedy his record as a Coach for Essendon, 27yr and only 4 flags, hardly an Alex Ferguson of Australia…
After last Sunday did you put your champagne back in the frig unopened for the next round of Footballroos matches; alas so disappointing for you both..
How much is the Marn Grook World Cup costing the Australian taxpayer.. No Australian team and 19 overseas teams visiting for a month of Marn Grook; looks like a $10m bill to me for the Australian tax payer with no Aussie team representative..??
~~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | June 16th 2008 @ 7:54am | Report comment
Michael C,
we know how honest and polite Redb is posting a negative article written by a Marn Grook journo and then pasting a Les Murray (SBS TWG) name to it … As you who works for Fairfax digital wouldn’t that seem to be a touch devious.. Not to mention a despicable act in the eyes of your comrades.. No I have no sympathy for Redb or you.
~~~~~~~
KB
Redb said | June 16th 2008 @ 8:56am | Report comment
KB,
Hit a nerve? Give me a break! You go on and on and on with the same anti-AFL spin. You post opinions about 150 years, marn grook,etc you get a response/answer several times from AFL fans, we ‘ll have to agree to disagree. You are ruining any decent argument by maintaining the same angle(s). Try and be original, think yourself, using Roy Master’s rhetoric suggests you have little in the way of an objective independent mind.
Drunk on Krudd international man of year politics, soccer posters have become hooligans on internet forums and infested this one recently with ignorant crap about Australian football. Soccer wants to become the second football code choice in Sydney(NRL) and Melbourne (AFL) by flying under the radar. You and your hooligan mates are emboldening fans of tradtional codes against soccer. Think about that.
John Ryan,
Your an ambulance chaser as far posts ago, you look for opportunties to chime in with your puerile rubbish without ever posting anything yourself of substance. “can’t take it” – Pffttt……you are easily the most bigoted and cowardly poster on the Roar.
I back my comments on the Storm in Melbourne. I wrote an opinion piece about it, copped plenty, replied to comments and moved on.
Write an article? Post an opinion? – have you got an opinion that wont include abuse or puerile crap?
Redb
Koala Bear said | June 16th 2008 @ 9:30am | Report comment
Redb,
ha ,, Don’t you love these little symbols? I know I do …. Redb you are just spurting off and accusing all on the ROAR of what you do in every post you put up.. You bait everyone then complain about the size of your catch.. C’mon larrrd get down from your high heels and take it on the chin ..
ha ha
btw the ANZAC match might be fine with the Vics, but let me assure you all up here on the Northern States, would like to see a Wallabies and All Blacks international on ANZAC day at the ANZ stadium, broadcast around the country.. I bet Peter Fitzsimons would love to see that. It may well just happen sooner than you think, now that John O’Neill on the OFFSIDERS program discussing the international on Saturday night of the 42k+ at the TD as a success, and if it had been the All Blacks instead of the Irish it would have attracted 80k at the G… So hopefully we up here may yet get to see an ANZAC holiday international at the ANZ televised around the country to watch; instead of being forced fed on Marn Grook…
Now for the indigenous programs.. Let me assure you that Sheedy is not the only one doing wonderful work with the Aboriginal kids .. Have you heard of David Peachy an aboriginal lad who played for Cronulla and then the Rabbitohs, Mark Ella ex Wallaby international also doing a magnificent job with the kids, and our own Harry Williams with his aboriginal heritage ex 1974 Socceroo with his programs with half the money they get from the Government as given to the Marn Grook game.. But soon to get more and about time too….
~~~~~~~
KB
Joe FC said | June 16th 2008 @ 9:32am | Report comment
Redb
I don’t consider myself a ” soccer hooligan ‘ but I am Australian & thus your comment was directed at me & every other Aust on this blog. You might very well have a view on what defines our Aust identity – I don’t have to share it & as far as Aussie Rules is concerned I don’t. You may not want to believe it but there are many Australians to whom Aussie Rules means nothing. What you may think of me is unimportant.
Michael C said | June 16th 2008 @ 9:41am | Report comment
John Ryan – - -
go back along the thread – - – this one got hijacked by the soccerheads who wanted to carry on debate from the previous threads authored by ‘Paul’. Don’t go getting self righteous like that – when firstly you’re not even a regular contributor of note, and secondly you’ve illustrated your lack of understanding of the dynamic of the thread upon which you’ve just commented.
KB -
Johnny Warren is a dead B grade sporting nobody. I’ve never heard of anything that he actually DID. I only know his name because, like Craig Foster, he had a little profile on SBS at various times. Did Johnny Warren ever do anything?
KB -
thankfully we don’t really have an ‘Alex Ferguson’ of Australia,…..because, we have a competition such as the AFL that moved away from the EPL rich get richer approach, so, we’ve got a competition that actually tries to retain an element of ‘competition’. Obviously a notion that’s somewhat ‘foreign’ to you. A shame really. As, it’s NOT foreign, it exists on your doorstep, and, you fail to recognise it.
Your loss.
KB -
“you who works for Fairfax digital wouldn’t that seem to be a touch devious.. ”
what do you mean by the above statement? Care to let me in on your little joke??
Jimbo
You said:”
Michael C and Redb,
I know how fanatical AFL fans will be and I’m not surprised at all by your comments, but I find your posts disappointing and quite frankly un-Australian.”
is that the best you can do?
Throwing ‘un-Australian’ at me?
Childish.
Real childish.
And, completely avoiding the point.
No one has yet seriously suggested just where Australia will generate the $20B-$27B from – - – other than perhaps expenditure generated locally anyway – - in which case, why build stadia that we don’t need when we can spend that money anyway and build hospitals and de-sal plants or whatever is deemed necessary to sustain life.
No one has illustrated why Australia is technologically and industrially placed better than Japan and at a par or better than South Korea – - so as to benefit potentially better than those two nations did COMBINED.
It’s truely sad, that when a valid concern, or argument is presented, that KB, John Ryan and Jimbo resort to childish schoolyard style name calling.
I await a post worth replying to.
Alas, if only there we more people of the nature of Millster who seems to be able to lift himself up from the pack.
Again,
Jimbo – -
if you want to go down the ‘un-Australian’ path, then there’s a whole can of worms down there that you’d better not go bashing your way towards without being aware of the possible outcomes.
Norm said | June 16th 2008 @ 9:46am | Report comment
Redb
” In so called jest you claim “were only joking, why so serious”" not sure why you suddenly lay this at my feet – can you show where I said such things. You’ve poured plenty of scorn on the other codes. If you lay down with dogs you get up with fleas.
jimbo
re prawns in the jar – I suggest no more than 1 hr. If we miss this deadline then the lid better not come off.
Koala Bear said | June 16th 2008 @ 10:21am | Report comment
Michael C,
Yes he did enough to be honoured with a State Funeral straight after Don Bradman … Johnny Warren towers over anything in the Marn Grook code you care to name so don’t insult my intelligence with your nominees .. Wayne and Benny… even Sheedy.. btw can you remember that KS slit the throat jester he became famous for…?
I am not surprised that you have not heard of him as he did not waste his time like your heroes with illicit drugs..
Marn Grook just glad we don’t have a tanking for a first pick in a draft and as far as Alex is concern I love to have his money…
Fairfax Digital: well lets see I think you and I know that Ben Willing (SMH so much for the privacy laws) let the cat out of the bag on that one…
~~~~~~
KB
Redb said | June 16th 2008 @ 10:25am | Report comment
KB,
below are excerpt from Jon O’Neill’s interview on the Offsiders:
BARRIE CASSIDY: You say you’re happy with 42,000. But are you convinced that the Victorians are embracing the game?
JOHN O’NEILL: Look, it’s hard to tell. It’s a very tough market. There’s no pretending that this is anything other than an AFL town. Bring the All Blacks down here and we’ll get 80,000 plus. Anyone else other than the All Blacks, you struggle a bit. The absence of a permanent team, a SuperRugby team in Melbourne is probably one of the, causes a bit of the stop start nature of the interest in rugby. There’s nothing to watch week in, week out. One Test match a year probably isn’t enough to keep the level of interest in rugby that we’d like. We are working on a number of things at the moment to expand SuperRugby. Clearly Melbourne is a location we will be look out for an additional team.
Confirms my belief as stated in the first psot on this thread, non traditional fans will gravitate to the best.
Rugby league tried an ANZAC test between Aust and New Zealand – what happened to that?
For the record, I think a Wallabies v All Blacks game on ANZAC day would also be fitting tribute to the ANZACS. The issue is that Bledisloe games will get 80,000 regardless od timing, why halve the audience by putting it in direct competition with the AFL ANZAC day game?
Glad you acknowledge Sheedy and the wonderful work he has done for indigenous Australians. That he is not the only one is good to hear.
Redb
Koala Bear said | June 16th 2008 @ 10:41am | Report comment
Redb,
I think your mate is getting a bit nasty..
yep that’s what I said thanks for the back up … If you meant it that way…
Rugby League ANZAC match was a success and on a Friday night … They were happy with the result and so was I with a New Zealander rewarded the man of the match and Anzac medal .. Good for him…
~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | June 16th 2008 @ 10:46am | Report comment
KB -
…………….so…..we’ll pretend that soccer is full of clean skins…….
Mark Bosnich and his Heil Hitler salute as well as his cocain habit,
Maradona, more known for his drugs habit than his hand…….not sure,
Georgie Best, a sad drunk,
Gazza Gascoine, his doing just fine thankyou very much,
I won’t go much further, but, we know well enough of soccer and closed door matches due to vile racial hatred from crowds and we know well enough of plenty of soccer folk in enough trouble, including one fellow presently for killing 2 people in a car crash…….I have no idea why you keep trying to take decent discussion down this grimy path. Probably says more about you than I care to know.
we all know – - irrespective of drugs – - that, as a very intelligent person once put it – - cocaine is gods way of telling you you have too much money.
Got nothing to do with code of football and everything to do with wads of cash. The EPL is one of the worlds centres for wads of cash in the hands to sportsmen. So – - don’t go shaking the AFL tree too much, because, that world game tree is weighted down pretty heavily and just waiting for a slight jutter to bring a few more big names and reputations tumbling down.
(btw – Wayne Carey did not touch the stuff until after his career – - and this is an area not many sports have a firm grip on, the post career ‘blues’ – - it is a very serious subject, and if you can’t respect that side of it, and would rather just go on for personal mileage – - then, KB, I’ll have to ignore you completely. I do realise, that your generation, probably wasn’t that flash at recognising ’shell shock’ as an actual post traumatic condition, or despression as a medical issue rather than something fixed with ‘another beer’…………)
You said :
“Fairfax Digital: well lets see I think you and I know that Ben Willing (SMH so much for the privacy laws) let the cat out of the bag on that one…”
I still have zero idea what you’re on about???? Care to explain?
Tanking for first pick in a draft – - – I think you’ll find that the inability of Carlton to win early season this year EVEN with C.Judd illustrated that last year, they didn’t have much say in it at all. But – - you’d have no idea of the injuries to the few key players they actually DID have – - that ensured that from about Rnd 12 onwards last year that Carlton had nothing to offer except game time to developing players………a bit like how Man Utd some times puts out a 3rd string team in the Carling Cup – - – tanking more because they don’t care and therefore put forward a substandard line up because there are bigger fish to fry.
It just insults the fans, and demeans the competition and it’s sponsors and makes Man Utd look a little to arrogant – - – no surprise with such dweeb as a manager, given a knighthood because he can do just what exactly?…….half successfully drive the most expensive football team ever put together? ……. I’d like to see him in the AFL context of list management and player development…………….and actually with something to do on game day……….he’d have a coronary if he had to make even 5 interchanges per half…………….let alone keep track of what his opposition are doing……ah, but, he can rely on defence if nothing else, ……..just defend, defend, defend with the full weight of the rule book behind you that makes it so hard to be punished on the scoreboard……….what a cushy job!!!!!
Johnny Warren had a state funeral? Really, when? Never heard about it. But, was he Sydney based? There’s often a tendancy for them to look after their own, 6 out of 10 gongs on QB to Sydney folk, 60% for 33% of the population………..you don’t take much notice of that do you?
btw -
have the Socceroos qualified yet? NO idea. Haven’t heard. Who were they playing?
The Union on Sat night…….good crowd…….and, did you here any ‘rain on our parade’ complaints?
And did it bother AFL folk who turned up at the ‘G the next day?
Gee it’s good to live in Melbourne where we don’t go crying foul like the thin skinned soccer followers and NRL folk who just really find it hard to believe that after all this time that Sydney still can’t influence the entire nation the way they wish they could boast of doing.
Koala Bear said | June 16th 2008 @ 11:07am | Report comment
Wayne Carey did not touch the stuff … only his best mates wife and how do you know what he did during his playing career, so to Johnny Warren yes a model human being and even our drunks and drug uses admired the man for what he was and represented to the Australian nation.. Even if you hadn’t heard of him which does not surprise me in the least as you are so incredibly selfish and arrogant.. I am only glad I don’t have tunnel vision like you..
Now you keep on with the WC bidding process and I keep repeating the Frank Lowy and the Kate Ellis position, which you continually ignore and say I don’t answer the question; are you hard of hearing … ? I have asked you about the Marn Grook costs to the Australian Taxpayer and you have totally ignored that.. Why is there no Australian team playing? Is this an all expenses paid free holiday for the 250 odd foreign players at the expense of the taxpayer..? (Australian Institute of Sports grant)
~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | June 16th 2008 @ 11:28am | Report comment
KB -
I haven’t gone on very much at all about the cost of bidding.
I accepted you at your word when you assured me that it was ‘only’ $30m and that effectively covered both 2018 and 2022.
NOw – - one of your sidekicks has indicated that it’s more likely around the $60m mark, but that Govt will go dollar for dollar.
That’s fine. And, if you meant ‘only’ $30m from the Govt, and $30m from other sources…….then, that’s fine.
I’d like to trust you KB……really I would.
- – - – -
Wayne Carey was staunchly anti drugs during his playing career, alas……perhaps a bit more time on that sort of mind altering stuff and he might have found his own missus a bit more attractive!!
But – - I can assure you, that there was no poorly kept Newcastle Knights style Joey Johns secret or anything like that. Carey et al, were abjectly anti drugs – - – and, year on year, the players took pay cuts to keep the joint afloat…….they never really had the opportunity during that semi-professional to fully-professional transition era to go down that path …… the Shinboner lads.
I wouldn’t dream to speak on behalf of other clubs.
- – - -
the AFL INternational Cup – -
I beleive I’ve mentioned before – - but, you seem to be a little memory challenged……
the competiting teams are ALL amateur and part time players of this dinky little game – - and they are all self funded to actually get here.
The AFL has spent most of their time negotiating deals such as with Qantas and the like, but, nothing in the way of Govt freebies unless you count the train that V-line will be putting on to take them down to Warrnambool – - – at a cost of $25,000 – - pretty cheap, and pretty damn good publicity for V-line serving the rural community (y’know, that rural community who still regard soccer tragics as a pack of soft w@nker$ – - not for a minute saying that this reflects my position!!).
so – - no ‘all expenses paid’ holiday at the expense of the Australian tax payer – - – not even at the expense of the AFL supporter!!!! The AFL isn’t about throwing cash around just to create phantom overseas competitions. They will stand on their feet by their own doing. Because, realistically, the AFL DOES NOT have a mandate to seek to grow the game overseas – - at least, not at great expense that may be at the risk of the domestic scene.
The Fed Govt will wake up one day as to the value of having up to 20 nations head down to Australia every 4 years or so to play a tournament.
And, you know very well why Australia is participating.
Actually, it’s the same reason why the Irish players ARE NOT playing in the tournament. And the same reason why ex-pats and children of immigrants aren’t playing on parentage eligibility.
Because – - it is NOT for professionals.
YOu seem to struggle with that notion.
which I guess is why you’re so comfortable saying :
“as far as Alex is concern I love to have his money…”
…..well, the love of money is the root of all evil…………..so, forgive me if I celebrate more greatly the basic human and sporting ideals celebrated by a bunch of unpaid amateurs travelling around the world to the rrrrrs end of the planet – - as compared to a bunch of over paid, over ego massage and over exposed soccer punces running around in the biggest sporting commercialised event on the planet.
btw – - – no one has yet explained to me which Aust companies will really benefit from the increased consumer spending around a WC (rather than spiralling us into worse inflation and worse balance of trade deficits). Is BIllabong going to be the new Addidas? and do a google on ‘Australian made televisions’…….
for your benefit:
Your search – “australian made televisions” – did not match any documents.
Koala Bear said | June 16th 2008 @ 12:25pm | Report comment
I can’t speak for Jimbo on his interpretation of the $60m cost for the bidding process. I believe it to be wrong and he has every right to believe it if he chooses to.. However, he also said that there will be a feasibility process to go through first before any money is committed… In saying that, the cost as I said was around the $27+m mark. And we have since learnt that the 2018 and 2022 are a bungle. Don’t take my word for it but it was in the press as such .. However, Frank Lowy response which I posted up which you continually ignore again and again said that the $60m biding process was a false report by the Marn Grook press.. (Age)
Tim Harcourt, Austrade has explained the benefits of the big events, and again you choose to ignore his input …
As far as the Marn Grook WC tournament is concerned I don’t believe you,,, that there is no money put in by the Australian taxpayer… Nauru can’t even look after their inhabitants and the Palestinians are a war torn nation.. I can’t even afford a holiday to Melbourne so I can’t see how any of these teams coming to Australia for a month can afford to fund themselves.
As far as Qantas flying these guys out they did not come to the party to fly out the Socceroos business class for the first Iraq game at the TD as a major Socceroo sponsor. The FFA kicked in the extra doe themselves.. So to fly out 250 odd players to Australia for free is a bit hard to believe.. “Why no Australian team;” don’t we have an amateur team that can play in this tournament (AIS) if not get a St Kilda pub team to enter, surely some of the Laarrrd would like a free country trip by rail..?
(Sorry that’s it for me today back later)
~~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | June 16th 2008 @ 12:57pm | Report comment
KB -
I respect what you posted from F.Lowy et al, but, what was never made entirely clear was whether the Govt in put was the absolute total, or whether the figure was the ball park and how much ‘grace’ would be applied – - – i.e. is it a case of whatever it takes.
And, on that front, I relate that back to the annual certainty of world class and world stage annual events such as the Grand Slam Tennis and the F1 GP and the MotoGP…………so, my main point always has been that we shouldn’t loose sight the forest for the trees…..in this case, the forest is at very least that list of 3 major annual events – - and the trees, at this point, just a mirage way off in the distance……is hosting the FIFA WC.
Tim Harcourt – - – I thought I’d indicated that he is cup half full personified,…..such that he talked up Megan Gale in ITaly as a potential foot in the door, and talked up AFL clubs in ruddy Dubai and the V8s in Bahrain……..he will talk anything UP. “UP” is the figurative term here.
That’s why I balanced it a little by presenting some, not necessarily counter arguments – - as, it’s not like it’s all subjective – - I’ve actually presented some interesting objective findings and then hypothesised a little – - but, at this point, I have every reason to believe that Tim Harcourt IS NOT financially modelling from an overly pragmatic perspective, and that he would probably be in the same boat as some of those over optimistic forecasters in Japan who forecasted $25B benefits etc.
I don’t therefore IGNORE Tim Harcourt, I HAVE in fact looked into the sorts of statements he makes and HAVE investigated previous World Cups.
Seems I’ve done a whole lot more investigation than you have.
And, to think we AFL types get accused of being myopic, sheltered etc……we at least know how to google!!!! Rather than just rely on the direct line to Frank Lowys propaganda office. I really wonder who is in someones pocket??
you said As far as the Marn Grook WC tournament is concerned I don’t believe you,,,
by jove – - no wonder we seem to get no where with you.
How about a little independant research.
Guess why Denmark failed to attend in 2005 when they HAD in 2002. Because their finances fell through, they couldn’t afford to come. LIke wise Nauru, another very late withdrawal. It actually annoyed the AFL no end as they HAD made as final preparations as possible (and I looked at that at the time and thought ‘no point being annoyed if you’re not willing to foot the bill’ – - but, the AFL was back then still treating the tournament as a bit of a nuisance)
Denmark
Denmark are reported yesterday as having The Denmark Vikings recently paid the airfares and confirmed their return to International Cup footy. To celebrate, they took on the Swedish Elks and ran out 58-point victors in a match marked by the almost-traditional heavy rain that has dogged Scandinavian Cup test matches.
Nauru
Nauru recently announced ” Our Airline, the new trading name from Air Nauru, has agreed to provide air travel for 22 players and three officials, and the AFL has allowed Nauru’s team kit to feature Our Airline’s logo. In further positive news for Nauruan football, the AFL is apparently considering conducting coaching and umpiring clinics, and reestablishing a revamped national football competition on the island.”
http://www.worldfootynews.com/article.php/20080418221743854
Peres Peace Team
THis was reported a week ago:
More support for Peace Team
Friday, June 06 2008 @ 01:20 PM EST
For many countries competing at this year’s International Cup, securing sponsorship has proved a challenge. Not so for the Peres Peace Team, a multi-ethnic and multi-religious team from Israel and Palestine. Several AFL figures have already pledged their support. Brownlow medalist Robert DiPierdomenico will coach the team and now Ron Barassi has committed to assisting DiPierdomenico on game days.
As reported previously the Pratt Foundation and Carlton Football Club will sponsor the team. Other major sponsors include AFL South Africa supporter Costa Group as well as Hyundai, NAB, Sport and Recreation Victoria, Diadora, James Richardson Group, Victorian Multicultural Commission, University of Sydney and Deloitte.
(note, it was reported May 20 that Pratt Foundation and CFC would sponsor the team)
Samoa
Check out the ‘Samoan Kangaroos’ – -because of Samoan Aaron Edwards at North Melb, my AFL club is getting behind the Samoan team:
http://www.worldfootynews.com/article.php/20080605192041664
Is it a little bit too hard for you to fathom that these people playing the game actually LOVE it. Already, in these instances, the LOVE IT so much that from their Rugby or soccer dominated previously 1 dimensional sporting deserts – - they finally have some decent choice, to play a decent game – - and, they’re willing to go to this extent to get out here and play………
……kinda says something.
It’s the sort of thing, that why the little minnows DO managed to take it up to a ‘professional’ rival in the RUFC, that the crowd so often supports them almost to a man.
I look forward to a minnow like the Solomon Islands taking on Germany in South Africa in 2010……..the Solomon Islands ARE STILL in contention, aren’t they?
(the good thing about soccer, it’s the ‘world game’, the bad thing, for probably 120 of the nations involved, making the WC finals really is fanciful, and hosting certainly not an option – - – even a Denmark, as I’ve illustrated, only ‘love’ their soccer so much, because, it’s actually TOO big now for a country like Denmark. They can’t even make the Euro Finals without a last minute withdrawal as per ’92’s greatest sporting fairytale. So – - how cool that for the time being, that Samoa, Tonga, Nauru can battle it out level pegging with the US, Britain etc – - – - – I have no idea how long this will last, but, for those guys, it’s pretty cool – - – but, again, you can choose to ignore the proof, the evidence etc)
btw – - as a member of the VAFA I’d love for us to be able to enter into the competition. BUT, as a development tournament, IT IS ENTIRELY for people who learned their football OUTSIDE of Australia.
Have you got the full picture yet.
btw – - -
even if you are back much, much later – - at least have the grace to have read this in entirity, and followed a link or two…..you must have the download space left, I presume you’ve upgraded so as to review and link all those youtube ‘gems’.
Towser said | June 16th 2008 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
http://www.theage.com.au/news/soccer/bend-it-like-kevin/2008/06/13/1213321624649.html
“PricewaterhouseCoopers is compiling an audit of Australian facilities to gain a better idea of the cost of the bid. It will be finished in early August and be presented to state and federal governments.”
As I said in an earlier post re the WC bid,until the cards are on the table everybody is speculating.
Above is an excerpt from an article in the Age(may or may not be on here) & until PWC finishes their audit nobody has a clue whatever side of the fence your sitting on.
drew said | June 17th 2008 @ 1:14pm | Report comment
regardless of whether or not we like the idea of a tierd system, we need one in order to have a-league teams competing in the ACL-new changes have been recently announced that in order for a country to have ACL participation they need a tierd system adn a top flight league of at least 12 teams, so either accept teh idea or have no participation in the ACL-a major step backward for football in this country.
Koala Bear said | June 17th 2008 @ 3:25pm | Report comment
Socceroos mean business and big business… How long will it be when United Emirates dump Marn Grook League (MGL) and start supporting the Footballroos ? — Not long now I guess as soon as their current agreement with Collingwood is over.
By Guy Hand
June 13, 2008 12:00am
THE Socceroos are set to become the sporting team that gives back to Australia and its taxpayers as they attempt to leverage millions of dollars in trade for the country through their Asian World Cup qualifying journey.
Australian soccer will receive $32 million in federal funding over the next four years. But Football Federation Australia (FFA) believes the sport is in the unique position of being able to repay that with interest by boosting trade with booming Asia and the Middle East, thanks to frequent Socceroos matches played in the region.
“We can help the government, we can help the corporate sector connect with different parts of the world so in some ways that’s a way for us to repay the investment that’s been made by the Australian government,” Football Federation Australia boss Ben Buckley said.
Austrade’s chief economist Tim Harcourt said the top-ranked Asian Football Confederation nations accounted for nearly $76 billion of Australia’s exports, making the sport the ideal platform to encourage trade links with Asia.
The first steps have been taken during the Socceroos’ World Cup qualifying campaign in the Middle East. The team, led by skipper Harry Kewell, were the guests of honour at an Australian Business in the Gulf lunch in Dubai.
The United Arab Emirates, of which Dubai is a part, is Australia’s 17th largest trading partner worth around $5 billion in trade last year – mainly in the business and construction sectors.
More than 600 Australian companies have a presence in the UAE and there are between 15,000 and 20,000 Australian expatriates living and working there.
Austrade’s Dubai-based trade commissioner James Wyndham said the Socceroos’ current campaign through the Middle East promised great spinoffs for Australian business in the region.
“What the Socceroos are doing today is bringing together 200 Australian CEOs and business people, building the glue for these Australian companies to do business here,” Wyndham said. “It’s also raising the profile that Australian companies are here, they’re on the ground doing a good job.
“If we can have the Socceroos as this wonderful marketing platform going around the region flying the flag for Australia, their success on the field is certainly replicated in the boardroom as well.”
The FFA also used today’s lunch to launch a major charm offensive to bolster Australia’s 2018 World Cup bid. Buckley has called on all Australian expatriates to become unofficial “ambassadors” for the World Cup bid, spreading the word why Australia would be an excellent World Cup host.
~~~~~~
KB
Redb said | June 17th 2008 @ 3:34pm | Report comment
KB,
Still fishing?
Perhaps we should rename the HAL – the WBL – Wog Ball League. If can’t the name of the competition right why should AFL fans?
Ohhh… but I’m only joking, dont get too serious
Redb
Koala Bear said | June 17th 2008 @ 4:11pm | Report comment
Oh Jenifer you tried that one on the SMH — Don’t you remember…
Redb..
I thought Marn Grook was the name your guys aspired for … Did I get that wrong ..? So not only are you dishonest your are now racist .. only joking
~~~~~
KB
Redb said | June 17th 2008 @ 4:16pm | Report comment
KB,
Wog is no longer offensive – there’s a play, movie, book – wogs out of work – what’s wrong – soccer’s the foreign game it fits pretty well.
just kidding
Redb
Koala Bear said | June 17th 2008 @ 4:24pm | Report comment
Jenifer, you’re absolutely right
I don’t mind it; so Marn Grook it is … MGL.. I’m serious…
~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | June 17th 2008 @ 4:25pm | Report comment
KB -
I’d appreciate some recognition that you actually read my last post from yesterday:
thus far, I would suspect NOT.
As, you have a tendancy to either NOT read or refuse to acknowledge posts that prove you wrong.
I believe I did that.
Especially in response to your childish outburst As far as the Marn Grook WC tournament is concerned I don’t believe you,,,
I really don’t know why I bother,
you’re so self absorbed that you don’t seem to believe anything or anyone,……
you still deny the existance of the 1859 Melbourne Rules.
However, I’m waiting for that set of Harrow rules from circa 1430…………
oh, dear, no, Harrow didn’t actually write down any rules until 1865…….
but, what’s it matter, we all know that Sepp has flagged that we’ll be changing ‘Association Football’ to ‘Chinese Football’, thus, when Rugby folk compare Union to Chess, you’ll be able to fire back quick as a wink – - ‘Yes son, but soccer is Chinese Checkers!’…………….
:-p
:-0
Koala Bear said | June 17th 2008 @ 4:34pm | Report comment
Jenifer, (Redb)
I just want to confirm with you, are you also talking about the Rugbies as “Wog Ball”..? I’m just wondering as they are foriegn games as well… Oh and cricket..?
~~~~~
KB
Redb said | June 17th 2008 @ 4:38pm | Report comment
Josephine (KB),
No just soccer!
Wog Ball League – WBL it is then.
Redb
Koala Bear said | June 17th 2008 @ 4:42pm | Report comment
MC,
I’m sorry I did not get back to you sooner; I did read it sounds like a nice Gala Day, where shall I tell the gals of the Ladies Auxiliary to send the coconut chocolate Lamingtons … ? Did you decide on the number of prawns in the jar yet.. ? 1859 ?
~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | June 17th 2008 @ 4:43pm | Report comment
Sorry I forgot the
~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | June 17th 2008 @ 4:55pm | Report comment
Harrow; yes rules and a Harrow “Football” in a Scottish Museum dated 14th century.. Wonderful isn’t it something real to see..
~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | June 17th 2008 @ 4:59pm | Report comment
KB -
sorry, you have a copy of the rules do you? Funny, the school didn’t have them until 1865…….
any form of ball from the 1400s is rather little more than …..well…..a ball………..
btw – - was it spherical?
funny, you always had an issue with spheres vs ellipsoids…..
until we stumbled across Harrow ‘balls’, that are shaped like a pork pie, with a rim and to circular bases. i.e. made of a long rectangular piece, and the two circular pieces, it is formed into a large awkward disc shape………perhaps an amount of ‘flex’ makes it a little more rotund…..but….hardly a perfect sphere…….
Koala Bear said | June 17th 2008 @ 5:07pm | Report comment
Jenifer, (Redb), that doesnt make sense all those games were invented in the Old Dart…
No wonder Roy Masters is so much on your tails..
But honesty was never your strong point. Poor Les Murray defamed and Michael C who backed you up on that dishonest post.. But what can you expect from the entire Marn Grook League false dates false testaments of ownership.. A total farce
~~~~~~~
KB
Norm said | June 17th 2008 @ 5:12pm | Report comment
KB jimbo
an update on our upcoming gala prawn & mud wrestling night at CRSL – laying in bed the other night with the wife snoring away I pondered on the stamina of the Auxiliary gals to last the distance, what with hearing aids, pacemakers, dentures & colostomy bags. So I thought why not some extra entertainment to keep all the lads amused – how about a Roarers tag team wrestling match: John Ryan & Treizistes v Redb & Michael C. We can name the event “Termination” & stick them inside a cage with Doris as ref. The winning team gets a boxed DVD set of commrade Paul’s Siberian adventures. The loosing team gets 2 sets. Should be a hoot.
Koala Bear said | June 17th 2008 @ 5:18pm | Report comment
Michael C,
Of course always striving for the perfect sphere but the technology wasn’t there as such … but still they were able to dribble the ball on the turf…. to goal ! (base)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4I3-w9589E
If the ball rolls and they have 11 aside with an offside rule and looks like football it is football not Marn Grook or Grooky…
btw nice article I put up, another source of information to account for Hey..!!!
~~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | June 17th 2008 @ 5:21pm | Report comment
KB -
ah yes,
a minor point,
the distinction between a dribbling game vs a kicking and passing game such as soccer – - Harrow themselves make that distinciton,
‘base’
yep – - that term sure held on!
Koala Bear said | June 17th 2008 @ 5:31pm | Report comment
Hi Norm,
Jenifer also said he will throw in a couple of mullet he fished out of Morton Bay… 
into the ring…
Brilliant, Brilliant, Larrd, and why stop there; I have heard from my sources that Kevin Sheedy wants to get involved and is willing to suck on the prawn head as we eat them and have a separate competition for Jennifer (Redb) to get involved of “how many can you do comp” inspired by the Socceroos Wheet Bix ad…
~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | June 17th 2008 @ 5:36pm | Report comment
Ha yes Michael C, Harrow football the pathway to the English Football Association just like Marn Grook to AFTL.. But for me; you know; it will always be Grooky…
~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | June 17th 2008 @ 5:50pm | Report comment
so, KB
was
I’m sorry I did not get back to you sooner; I did read it sounds like a nice Gala Day, where shall I tell the gals of the Ladies Auxiliary to send the coconut chocolate Lamingtons … ? Did you decide on the number of prawns in the jar yet.. ? 1859 ?
that your way of saying:
“I’m sorry for doubting you”
“I admit I was wrong”
……………..you have a round about way of dealing with a discussion………….far more round about in fact than my relative waffle measure…………….and that’s saying something.
Koala Bear said | June 17th 2008 @ 6:00pm | Report comment
Michael C,
???
Sorry; never!!… I said I read it and failed to directly get back to you .. As I have said honesty has never been the Marn Grook way.. Just because you read some information on the internet as you have politely advised me does not mean its true.. Comrade….. btw any comment of the article I put up for your comment… It’s a lie isn’t it…
~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | June 17th 2008 @ 6:15pm | Report comment
KB -
It’s great, isn’t it, that people will only turn up in BAhrain (like for the V8s) – - NOT to actually watch the sports – - but, to meet in back rooms and grease palms the AWB way……
….the socceroos don’t have to ‘entertain’, or ‘win’, or even have their best players turn up – - – - no one cares what the event is, simply that it’s on the calendar………..
yep – - it’s all very, very exciting.
but – seriously – - as per the Harcourt speciality,
such phrases as
“first steps”
and the other fellow
“promises”
It is at this point a hypothesised fantasy.
Hopefully the Socceroos can provide some benefit……….
what of it?
Midfielder said | June 17th 2008 @ 6:37pm | Report comment
KB & MC (the battle continues)
Evil Emperor (see Sith Master) as MC Vrs Yoda (see Jedi Master) as KB.
Guys after your 100, 000 round post battle I declare a draw. Now the Sith will take their followers to the senate and so too will the Jedi. The Sith have many advantages by their use of the axis of evil “Channel 7, 3AW, & The Herald Sun”, the Jedi also have their advantages with mind tricks and universal approach.
Who dares win ………… let time be the judge …………….. me I have grown tired of the whole thing. MC at least KB has the excuse he is retired and has little else to do ………. what’s your excuse.
To conclude both your arguements …..
……….. MC…. soccer is crap and all who follow it are lossers and need their head read for failing to convert to the true faith.
……….. KB …the AFL only tell lies twice ………. that is everything they say and everything they do.
As my old Irish Nanny would say …………. for the love of Jesus ………… shut up.
Michael C said | June 17th 2008 @ 7:00pm | Report comment
Midfielder –
I don’t have many people to talk to at work!!!!
The girls work 10-3 Tues to Thurs. The boss is often out of town.
You – - and KB – - etc, are my sanity………………..
says it all,
really.
sheesh…..
btw – - soccer isn’t crap – - just a lot of it’s fundamentalist zealot followers……………..oh…………or the poor hard done by whinging massive chip on shoulder ‘football’ not soccer folk…………………….y’know…..all the antagonists.
Koala Bear said | June 17th 2008 @ 7:00pm | Report comment
“what of it?”
“what of it?”
Oh dear comrade, you read but you fail to comprehend, or see the big picture … It’s Business opportunity Laarrrrd…!!!! Just like the business opportunity and free advertising or cheap advertising generated to transport the Marn Grook lads by Vline or whatever to where it was.. Wooonaagabba ? (not to meant to be funny just couldn’t remember the name) the town stuck in the fifties.. That reminds me to send Dr Who down to bring them up to speed in the 21st century with “Socca” taking over – Your search “australian made televisions” – did not match any documents. So much for Pye industries great company but no spare parts to had for the unfortunates of Wooonaagabba.
Now that the Footballroos are on the case; things will change shortly for all Victorian Larrrd..
I saw a bit of the SBS news of the “Business Luncheon” in Dubai and the Footballroos surrounded by the Dubai Business Executives all clamoring for autographs — a wonderful site it was… comrade…
PS, this is the last one for the night — can’t have you saying I ran off to mum’s apron strings — plenty of dirty dishes to wash up… And Hell’s Kitchen is on tonight … Midfielder just caught your post before sending Nice Call Larrd … May the Force be with you.. good night Larrrds … you too Jenifer..
~~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | June 17th 2008 @ 7:08pm | Report comment
Michael C,
definitely the last tonight. I read you don’t have much to do so will that be some child minding refundable money I can claim on my next tax return .. just needs some details larrd…
~~~~~
KB
jimbo said | June 17th 2008 @ 11:42pm | Report comment
Midfielder,
you forgot “soccer folk are childish” in your summation.
Mr C,
Redb made the comment that we “soccer folk” are un-Australian for not coverting to AFL because it made Australia what it is today and we owe our lives to AFL.
I think it is un-Australian when you want your national team to lose, because it is a rival code that is growing in popularity.
Norm, KB,
That’s the Gala Prawn Night program then.
I’ve printed the flyers for the club and the raffle tickets are in the mail.
Make sure you sell the lot before Saturday night and I’ll get you the phone numbers of a couple of the Somoan Girls.
Should raise a few hundred bucks – only about 59 million to go for the bid.
Only 66 days and 21 hours to the start of the A-League season and the Jets v Mariners kick off.
Midfielder said | June 18th 2008 @ 12:55am | Report comment
Jimbo KB & football bloggers (round kind)
Back on topic want to know why its great to be in Asia and why / how this is going to help, regarding article topic.
Well ……….. this is why it’s so bloody great to be in Asia, we are getting regular meaningful games. Assuming a lot of these games use A-League players it can only be good as our A-League players will then get really match hardened so when it comes to WCQ they aren’t quite as raw as they are now.
In the next 12 months the Socceroos will play 10 qualifiers (8 WC, 2 AC). That kind of thing was unthinkable some time ago. Then in the following 12 months there are another 4 qualifiers and the World Cup.
Non-stop Football…you gotta love it!
Then the expanded A-League plus ACL matches …….. next year on the Central Coast & Newcastle, both regional centers and thus plenty of exposure. Throw in Womens league / Youth league / Olympics ………….. as I said ……… you gotta love it ………
BTW the Mariners today a young kid today by the name of David D’Apuzzo, he has played for the national U 17 side and some are saying he is a real find ……….. one to keep an eye out for remember if he is successful where you heard it first.
Redb said | June 18th 2008 @ 7:24am | Report comment
had the night off last night – my apologies to MC for entangling him in this Josephine (KB) lead jaunt into lunacy.
Midfielder,
Points for trying to stop this madness – shut the hell up
My sentiments exactly if you recall the other day.
Jimbo,
Find the quote were I said I want any national Australia team to lose.
Find the quote where I sad it is unAustralian not to convert to Australian football.
I bet you can’t.
KB,
Stop mocking our indigenous people with the false use of Marn Grook or ‘Grooky’ to describe the Australian Football league (AFL). You started this crap and you can end it if your a decent individual.
Redb
Koala Bear said | June 18th 2008 @ 8:32am | Report comment
Redb (Jenifer)
I beg your pardon; I have not mocked our indigenous brothers .. I support their claim of Grooky (Marn Grook) .. Paul I think (?) said they have their own paid TV Marn Grook show and I think that’s cool… You tell them they should not pursue that claim, I will not. At first I thought it to be a bit strange, then I began to warm to the idea, as we should have an indigenous name for the indigenous game.. Should we now return Uluru Rock to the old name of Ayres Rock ..? I think not..
I think we should have more name changes to establish a true Australian Culture.. It is you and people like you who can’t accept change for the better. Beneath your pretence of support for our indigenous brothers lies a deep ingrained redneck attitude … I welcome the Marn Grook League as a wonderful concept.. I truly believe it.. If you embrace it, it will grow on you as it has on me.. OPEN your heart and mind Larrrd…. Football is an English foreign name.
~~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | June 18th 2008 @ 9:03am | Report comment
Jimbo and Norm,
I might even have a go at it myself.. Anyway have a look at my technique and let me know what yer think…!!
one of the gals from the CRSL ladies Auxiliary (Doris) has a video camera and so I thought I would give demonstrations before the big Gala Prawn Night to help raise funds most urgently needed for the 2018 bidding process. As we all know speed is the essence and prime factor for a successful night.. AND NOTHING should go to waste. The prawn heads can be put to one side for a separate competition “Prawn Head Sucking” “How many can you do?” that the Marn Grook troupe are keen to enter MC, KS, and Redb..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8dkFz1cuzU&NR=1
~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | June 18th 2008 @ 9:17am | Report comment
I’ll just say a couple of things about ‘un-Australian’
We are often bombarded with wonderful notions of the ‘Australian Outback’ – - yet, how many of us live there, or even visit it more than once a decade.
We are often bombarded with images of the Great Barrier Reef – - but again, how many people holiday in Bali instead
We are all fully aware of the Kangaroo and Emu on the coat of arms, yet, how many people see one on a daily/weely/monthly basis (btw – we have Roos and Emus down the ‘farm’ in East Gippy)
So – -
it holds that people can be justly proud of the Socceroos and yet NOT follow the game in general
it holds that people can be justly proud of the unique little game of Aust Footy and yet NOT live in a dominantly AFL state
any argument to the contrary is simply being contrary for arguments sake.
- – - – - – -
now, with respect to naming conventions,
the challenge is on in earnest for the GC17 name, they’ve gone public, and very soon the GC soccer side will be doing a similar exercise,
based on one Mr KB, I’d suggest the soccer side should be the Gold Coast Prawns or the Gold Coast Auxillary
btw -
KB – Warrnambool.
aboriginal for “water between two rivers”,
KB -
congratulations that the Socceroos are on a par with Megan Gale for potential for business luncheons………
No one has ever questioned the Socceroos.
that they do well is perhaps of concern to the Wallabies should the Socceroos become the preferred national team,
however, at various times the Wallabies will serve a valuable conduit for such activities,
there’s always the ‘potential’ flow on benefits – - – and then there’s the ‘actual’ flow on benefits………….
….a bit like how the Japanese forecast $25b benefits from co-hosting the FIFA WC, and the reality was more around the $4b mark……………
………….it’s funny,
a few of us AFL types just pondered dreamily what might, possibly, happen with Aust Footys cute little growth ‘explosion’ (a term used in very ‘relative’ terms) overseas, that sees us contemplate an IC tournament this year with a likely 50% increase in competing nations.
We realise theres a major gap between reality and actuality, we aren’t silly…………..
……….and yet, when the soccer folk go on using these Tim Harcourt comments as something ‘absolute’, and we question the ‘absoluteness’ of it – - we become ‘un-Australian’????
I thought it WAS very Australian to bring people back a notch or two, stop letting people get too carried away with unachieved and yet to be designed outcomes.
So – KB – live in your airy fairy dreamy world basking on the warmth of days to come……………….
Redb said | June 18th 2008 @ 9:18am | Report comment
Josephine,
you can beg if you think it would help with your distorted views of the world.
Towser said | June 18th 2008 @ 9:24am | Report comment
Midfielder
Not long after I migrated(40 years ago) and started to take an interest in the development of football in Australia I realised what was the main reason it was not developing. The main one being & I quote yourself “this is why it’s so bloody great to be in Asia, we are getting regular meaningful games”. There were none in the sense of those in other confederations. I even wrote letters to the then ASF stating this point as well as the need for a National league.
I didnt envisage the hot potch that became the NSL.
I stopped writing to the ASF after a few years As I realised that it was a brick wall job for 2 reasons.
One in Oceania there were no countries of sufficient standard to provide meaningful games(NZ maybe the exception but only just) & two I was writing to a bunch of incompetent imbeciles(And I’m being kind there). Now whether it was a chicken & egg situation whereby the administrators of football became incompetent because of the confederation we were located in & could do sweet FA to improve the game or were just plain icompetent we’ll never know & its open to debate anyway.
Regardless today the line “regular meaningful games” at International & club domestic level should have a shrine somewhere in FFA headquarters.
Midfielder said | June 18th 2008 @ 9:44am | Report comment
Towser
And there is more with the FFA out of the red …….. and into the black (BTW good stones song) ………. see smh article today below
Obie One ………. is delivering and all I can say is ……….. Sun Shine Lolly Pops and Sugar Caoted Lemon drops ……….. everyone is happy when …………….. FFA do well.
Roos’ success puts FFA back in the black, with more blockbusters to come
Michael Cockerill
June 18, 2008
FOOTBALL Federation Australia expects to be back in the black by the end of the financial year, thanks to the Socceroos.
Eight months after reporting a staggering $11 million loss for 2006-07, the FFA is on course to return a “modest profit” for 2007-08, according to chief executive Ben Buckley. The FFA annual report is scheduled to be published in late October.
While the Federal Government’s recent election pledge of $32m over the next four years helped to steady the ship, it is the Socceroos’ success in negotiating a tricky first phase of the World Cup qualifying campaign that has provided the icing on the cake. Last weekend’s win against Qatar in Doha ensured progress to the next stage, and with a minimum of four more home qualifiers guaranteed, the FFA expects between $15m and $20m in gate money over the next 12 months.
“In many ways, qualifying for the next stage is priceless,” Buckley said. “Had we not gone through, it would have stymied a lot of the good work we’ve been doing over the last year. But now we’ve got such a positive atmosphere around the game, and that will trickle down from the Socceroos, to the A-League, and down to the grassroots.
“In pure financial terms, obviously it’s a windfall. We’ve now got a minimum of four blockbusters to continue to build our profile. Depending on where you play those games, that’s around $4m-5m in gate money for each match. When we did the financials this time last year, we were confident the fans would come to the [World Cup] games, but we’ve been delighted with the way they’ve responded.
“We’ve had two virtual sell-outs in Melbourne and Brisbane, and we’re on course for another good crowd [against China] in Sydney this weekend. And things are looking even better for the next round, because the opposition will be bigger and better.
“That means that after taking away all the investments we’re making in the development of the game, we’re now looking at making a modest profit. We’ll be out of the red, which is a pretty big turnaround in a year.”
Football’s financial resurgence is especially timely in the light of suggestions this week from former FFA chief executive John O’Neill that Australia’s ultra-competitive sporting marketplace means the four football codes are heading for a day of reckoning.
Buckley believes that while all four codes can survive “in some shape of form”, the world game is now much better placed to flourish against the competition. He has just returned from the Middle East, where Federal Government trade officials used the presence of the Socceroos for networking opportunities – a further sign of the game’s growing corporate appeal.
“I think there are challenges ahead for all of us – let’s face it, we have an incredibly competitive sporting landscape in Australia,” he said. “But I don’t see why all codes can’t survive in some shape or form. I certainly believe football will be around for a long time to come … we do feel well positioned.
“We’ve got a great participation base, we have a strong national footprint, without the geographical bias of other codes, we have both men and women playing in large numbers, and we are the most international of all the codes. Those are all fantastic building blocks for the future.”
Asked whether he felt football’s recent resurgence had spooked rival codes, Buckley replied: “I wouldn’t say spooked, but I do know that five or 10 years ago, the other professional sports weren’t as concerned as they are now.”
Meanwhile, more than 68,000 tickets have already been sold for Sunday’s “dead rubber” between Australia and China, and FFA officials are confident the crowd for the final game of the first group stage will nudge 70,000.
Socceroos coach Pim Verbeek is expected to announce his squad today, with a host of regulars tipped to be given a rest. China, who are already eliminated, arrive in Sydney tomorrow. there is more from smh today ………….. we are out of the red ………. good read………
Towser said | June 18th 2008 @ 10:32am | Report comment
Midfielder
Good to see.
The article just further reinforces what you said.
The word momentum is interesting & is a physics term(see above link).
Ie Momentum = mass times velocity.
The smaller the mass(Oceania) the less the momentum.
The greater the mass (Asia ) the greater the momentum.
Greater speed also increases the momentum. But as the mass(Asian Football) keeps increasing you can keep up a steady velocity(speed) & stilll see the momentum growing because of increasing mass(read dollars political/business influences etc).
Towser said | June 18th 2008 @ 10:33am | Report comment
http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/GBSSCI/PHYS/Class/momentum/u4l1a.html
MIdfielder
Link if interested above.
Norm said | June 18th 2008 @ 11:20am | Report comment
KB
good technique – love the singlet.
MC
Gold Coast Auxiliary – that actually has some appeal.
Koala Bear said | June 18th 2008 @ 11:26am | Report comment
Redb (Jennifer),
Ha, ha, I think you should re read your opening post today and see who was the one that was begging forgiveness.. It seems to me that with all of your past rhetoric on the indigenous game and its 40,001 year birthday has meant really nothing it seems. Just a lot of fluffy spin as soon as some one floats the Marn Gook name to be adopted the redneck attitude surfaces as to say we must and cannot have a coon name, as the flagship of our glorious Victorian game… I think you should contact Michael Long and explain your thoughts and position to him; he must be totally confused.. How could anyone blame him…?
Michael C,
– Warrnambool aboriginal for “water between two rivers”, don’t you love these indigenous names I do.. There should be more of an Australiana presence in this great country of ours.. Don’t you think? And what better than having an Indigenous name for the Indigenous game “Grooky” (Marn Grook) I do love the concept, it is unique to Australia, instead of that horrid name the World Game uses “FOOTBALL” yes I can see a great deal of sense in the name change that started with Andrew Dorothy Demetriou’s AFTL.. and his yellow brick road to the northern states. I bet he must be envious of Ben Buckley with all of the good news stories…
As for you being unAustralian I think Jimbo was correct when you had some nasty comment about Patriotism for the Australian National Football Team vs. Argentina National Football Team at the MCG that even surprised Pippinu on the SMH flog… Larrrrd… shameful as I recall…
Midfielder and Towser,
Isn’t it wonderful with the progress the Australian National Football Team is achieving in Asia and more to come.
~~~~~~~
KB
Ps…. back later the cheese and kisses needs a lift …can’t be accuse of running again…
Michael C said | June 18th 2008 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
KB -
what? that Argentina wear blue and white veritcal stripes so I was almost drawn to hoping they might win…….
yep, shameful.
or that I admitted that I used to go for the West Indies in cricket – - EVEN against Australia….because I didn’t much like Chappell, Lille and Marsh…..
yep, shameful.
or that I prefer Guinness to VB………..
yep, shameful and unAustralian…….
however, I have never lobbied to kill off any of the Socceroos, Aust cricket team, VB or even Holden Commodores………
…….but, I did shoot a ‘roo once down the farm………a little shame about that………….no shame about shoot’n’ the rabbits………………
Soccer players seem to breed like Rabbits……..
Redb said | June 18th 2008 @ 12:47pm | Report comment
What’s wrong KB? have to make up lies to spin your way through the morass you’ve created.
Redb
Dave said | June 18th 2008 @ 12:56pm | Report comment
Midfielder/Towser
Keep those articles coming…a great read. Unfortunately nothing in todays Age about it.
Looking forward to the draw coming out for the next round of qualifiers and booking my tickets for the Melbourne game. Hope its one of the big teams and played at the MCG.
KB
) will go the way of all the others 
Chelski making an attempt on the world record for most coaches in the shortest period of time…The Brazilian One (sounds painful
Towser said | June 18th 2008 @ 2:02pm | Report comment
http://au.fourfourtwo.com/news/78517,ffa-ref-review-goes-dutch.aspx
Dave
Another problem under previous administrations was much “sweeping under the carpet”, if a problem arose.
Referees & refereeing standards has been a major talking point of the first 3 years of the A-League.
Most punters will agree that its not been good enough.
The FFA has taken this on board . See above article.
Although the way its going the song “Tulips from Amsterdam” will be have to be rewritten as ” Clogs from Cloncurry to Carnarvon”.
Koala Bear said | June 18th 2008 @ 2:33pm | Report comment
Redb,
No legacy is as rich as honesty – when you tell the truth, you never have to worry about your lousy memory.. And honesty is the first chapter in the book of wisdom Larrrd. We here on the Roar await your apology and then we will one day respect what you post up.. Could also apply to MC and his Guinness tastes over his VB tastes..
MC,
Yes you can say that the Footballroos and supporters are breeding faster than the rabbits in Australia and spreading into Asia faster then you can order a Chinese takeaway. While the Marn Grook League (love the name) and its yellow brick road has hit a brick wall at Carrara .. I can sympathise with you with the Kangaroo culling as we just went through the process up here not so long ago.. But they never really captured the right to exist nor sympathy of the local farmers; and so eradicated the entire herd at Carrara.. I did try to stop it, but the farmer lobby was too intent and preferred the Gold Coast Auxiliary FC. Andrew has not said much more on that front I believe .. ? Anything coming from Marn Grook Headquarters except for the same old speculation on expansion..? I think Lord Mayor Ron Clarke has said no to redevelopment of Carrara from GC treasury. So any news on that front from MG headquarters I may have missed..? Maybe we are all waiting on the feasibility study being conducted for the 2018/2022 WC bid.?
Midfielder’s article was fascinating.. Do you think it’s all lies.?. ie is Benny lying as usual..? Bloody unAustralian if he is…?
~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | June 18th 2008 @ 2:53pm | Report comment
Dave,
I can’t understand it? didn’t you get the invitation from the Ladies Auxiliary for “the Brazilian one Scolari’s appointment” at Stamford Bridge next season.?. I told Doris make sure the invites for Scolari’s welcome induction go out before the Prawn Gala night go out .. Geez it’s hard to get good staff these days..
Well just to bring you up to speed larrd; we were so impressed with Scolari’s honesty as we don’t get much of it here on the ROAR .. You know what I mean (Redb & MC). However, we decided ie Roman and I that the “Brazilian one” was our man when he said. ” It’s the money how could I refuse”.. Instead of the usual response of “it’s not about the money” .. One thing we pride ourselves here at the Bridge is Honesty.. Honesty Larrrd..
~~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | June 18th 2008 @ 3:08pm | Report comment
Norm,
I am glad you liked the Marn Grook singlet. I bought mine from a disused Kanga Marn Grook merchandise store left overs and the cheese and kisses soaked it in bleach until the blue vertical stripes faded out… Like the Nth Melb FT Club.. here on the Gold Coast.. Although I find it a tad too tight around my biceps .. A scrawny lot these Marn Grook Larrrds are. I don’t mean our indigenous brothers, but the Wayne Carey type; party to you drop.. But nonetheless, great for peeling prawns ..Beautiful !! and drinkin’ Guinness..
~~~~~~~
KB
Redb said | June 18th 2008 @ 3:13pm | Report comment
KB,
Honesty is definitely not your strongest suit. The book wisdom is out of reach to you my furry friend – the light of truth blinds you.
Your posts are mistake ridden half truths falsely disguised as gospel.
Your intrepretations of the AFL are highly spurious. You do soccer no favours with your anti AFL rants they just alienate potential cross code fans. Suggest you take a leaf out of Dave, Towser, even Midfielders (sometimes
) book.
Now go and have a nap.
Redb
Redb said | June 18th 2008 @ 3:20pm | Report comment
Ok I admit I failed tautology class at school. Falsely misguided?
Redb
Koala Bear said | June 18th 2008 @ 4:20pm | Report comment
Redb Oh Really !!
Half truths and mistake ridden? I think a lot of us football folk here have witness enough of your dishonesty to understand your character for what it is.. And your negativity on any positives from Football’s progress to the point of mischievous posting using a respected name in the football world to deceive posters like me. Not even an apology from you for doing so when I caught you out. At least comrade Paul, when he realised he made a mistake he quickly corrected it.. Your deliberate attempt of deception has yet to be forgiven as you have yet to apologise for it… Along with your distant for our Football Executives and you dare question my honesty, hah, I think you as I have reiterated so many times, that you lot can’t handle the truth .. Especially when you have continually displayed fear from Football’s progress on a constant basis. Fear in all the positives that we Football folk put up on the Roar..
Yes Redb, all the Rugby folk have made up there minds about you to, and I once was truly an advocate of AFL and all codes to coexists on an equal footing, but alas, it is you who have alienated the support from folk like me with your constant bulling and head bashing … Where ever you go you get caught out, with the “Smell the Fear” slogan coined by Simon Hill.. If you stoped the antagonism like your most recent article on the Storm you may have a little more respect from posters like me. I would dearly love to be positive about AFL.. But no chance while you continually demean other codes like RL and Football..
~~~~~
KB
Redb said | June 18th 2008 @ 4:38pm | Report comment
KB,
There ya go with the soccer hooligan approach again, yes AFL posters are outnumbered here.
Mischevious posting? What BS. Go to the World Game website and lookup Les Murray blogs – your not Les Murray are you?
Your kidding re the Storm article, you have been nothing but disingenous about the AFL from day one. You are constantly posting anti AFL rubbish – the shoe is firmly on your foot on that score. At least I’m upfront about my opinion on the Storm (not rugby league in general), I seem to remember many anti Swans comments from you – what’s the difference?
Ask MC the only other AFL blogger from Melbourne on the Roar about your posts of BS.
You should have stayed nestled in your tree
Redb
Towser said | June 18th 2008 @ 4:50pm | Report comment
http://www.10thnpc.org.cn/english/sports/190078.htm
Article above is from 2006 by AFC boss MBH.
Reading it he indicates that sponsorship for Asian football leagues is out there, but the Leagues themselves are in general not professional enough to attract sponsorship.
Which in my mind is why then, the points rating system earlier this year was introduced to give Asian leagues a shake up.
Also the reason that Asian billionaires were putting their cash into estabilished professional teams in Europe.
MBH is talking here about clubs & sponsorship being mutually satisfying to both parties not hand outs to clubs & rightly so.
The Japanese are ahead of everybody at this stage but I feel Australia with much experience in the commercialisation of sport can be a big contributor also.
Another article, which confirms in my mind that we should be keeping a closer eye on what Urawa Reds & other Asian clubs are doing as much as Melbourne Victory ,if say you were another A-Leagues club supporter.
Koala Bear said | June 18th 2008 @ 7:00pm | Report comment
Mischevious posting? What BS. Go to the World Game website and lookup Les Murray blogs – your not Les Murray are you?
OK Redb,
Sorry Zac, I would just like to make a point about Redb’s last post to me in response to my post before Redb’s post .. Did I mention Les Murray’s name in my last post? No, so yes Redb guilty as charged… Putting Les Murray’s name to a M. Gleeson AFL article to misrepresent Les Murray.. The prosecution rests your honour.. I shall return in a few weeks when the dust settles…
~~~~~~
KB
jimbo said | June 18th 2008 @ 11:47pm | Report comment
Redb,
correct, you didn’t use the word “un-Australian” in you post,
but you did call us “soccer hooligans” (which are un-Australian)
and you said we didn’t appreciate what AFL has done to make Australia what it is today (un-Australian).
I also suggested in a previous post that you two (with Mr C) would probably be happy to see the Footballroos lose, to which I received no reply (at that time), so It would seem I have jumped to the wrong conclusion.
I’m very happy to learn that you are both supporters of the Footballroos even though you don’t like football.
I watch the AFL occasionaly (sometimes I have no choice over at the in-laws) and am not anti-AFL as an Australian sport, I’m just sick and tired of the way AFL is marketed here and the way the AFL is targeting other codes and using its money to try and buy supporters (and football grounds which are in short supply).
Redb said | June 19th 2008 @ 9:16am | Report comment
KB KB KB,
What are you on about?
Redb