By Peter Karvinen
June 12th 2008 @ 1:05am
Loading ...Other sports that rugby should steal their U21s from
Ignoring rugby league, where this is a well-known quantity, I was thinking about specific athletic skills required for different positions in rugby and in what sports they could be found for recruitment.
For props, you want both upper and lower body strength. Explosive power, but with some agility. And for them to not be muscle bound. I feel the obvious ones like power lifting and weight lifting would not be agile enough.
The sports I would target for rugby recruitment would be hammer and discuss throwers.
You want hookers to be more agile than props, so I would choose javelin throwers.
Locks need height, flexibility and hand eye coordination. One obvious sport would be basketball, but I would also look at AFL forwards (like Barry Hall), volleyballers, and pole vaulters.
For numbers 6 and 8, you want hard tacklers, guys who are good on their feet, are big and strong, and have reasonable pace. The standout for me would be college gridiron, players that do not make it to pro level. In particular, the Safeties and Tight Ends. In general, these guys are about the size and pace of Jonah Lomu.
For number 7, you need strength, flexibility and courage. I would look at gymnastics. These guys would have no problem getting off the ground quick, and would be able to get into position to pinch a ball.
At centre you need a strong runner, who is able to break tackles and go over the advantage line. From gridiron again, I would look at running backs. From athletics, I would look at decathletes.
On the wing you want pace and lots of it. This would obviously suit sprinters from athletics or wide receivers in gridiron.
For fullback, you want someone to be able to catch high balls, kick them a long way, and have good pace. My pick would be AFL players, probably those playing in the midfield
I have not been able to work out the best sports for scrumhalves (halfbacks), flyhalfs (5/8’s), or inside centre.
Maybe others can work these out for me.
These athletes could be put into the rugby sports academy for 18 months to see if their skills can translate to rugby.
It would be at a small cost. There are, for instance, plenty of really good basketball and gridiron players that do not make it to the professional leagues and therefore do not have many other alternatives.
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(29)
ozxile said | June 12th 2008 @ 8:38am | Report comment
Having coached university-level rugby novices for many years here in the US I can tell you without any equivocation that a good shortstop from baseball is almost 100% certain to be a good scrum-half. They are invariably good athletes, have good vision, can move and pass both ways (once oriented to the game and taught what a pass looks like), tend to be gutsy (not afraid to get in front and block base runners), and seem to have some innate skill for getting the rest of the team organized. I don’t know or really care much about baseball so have no particular insight as to why the position attracts such athletes, but I know what I have seen and worked with - steal a shortstop!
Mac said | June 12th 2008 @ 10:13am | Report comment
How about Pie Eating Contest winners?
They wouldn’t get as much action but the rest might do them some good.
USRugbyFan said | June 12th 2008 @ 11:16am | Report comment
I think for 6 & 8, linebackers would be a better bet. They are almost always bigger than safeties and tight ends, and have the ideal body type for loose forward.
stillmissit said | June 12th 2008 @ 11:46am | Report comment
I have ref’d a local school team a couple of times and they have a tall kid who has just started to play rugby in the last 3 weeks. He steps beautifully off both feet and tackles well. Breaks lines and is capable of scoring tries.
Good sportspeople can be generally good at most sports the big difference in rugby is the risk and the contact. You need to have guts and good bone structure. If you have both of these you can be good at rugby.
JohnB said | June 12th 2008 @ 11:57am | Report comment
Heavyweight judo players and greco roman wrestlers would have to be value as front rowers. Olympic weightlifters who were too tall to get to the Olympics would be worth a look in plenty of positions - just incredibly strong, and contrary to your perceptions flexible and (with the possible exception of the superheavyweights) very agile. Boxers or MMA fighters would bring a lot of qualities. And if you’re looking for strength, agility etc - gymnasts who grow too tall to get to the Olympics. Decathletes might be worthwhile. And for a left field call - if you want people to jump or lift in the lineouts - ex ballet dancers
stillmissit said | June 12th 2008 @ 12:02pm | Report comment
JohnB - great idea made me nearly choke on my coffee. Would love to see a team of ex ballet dancers they would put the fear of christ up most rugby teams.
Mark H said | June 12th 2008 @ 12:05pm | Report comment
I recon Basketballers as backrowers? Have you seen the size of some of the lads in the USA?? I was there recently speaking with a few guys about Rugby. They love it but its just not around for them to involve themselves. Basketballers. Thats my tip.
JohnB said | June 12th 2008 @ 12:10pm | Report comment
stillmissit - was a half serious suggestion! Not one I expect to see followed up, but the height a good male dancer can leap, and the amount of lugging around of ballerinas they do, there’s something to be learned there!
stillmissit said | June 12th 2008 @ 12:31pm | Report comment
JohnB - Wouldn’t mind lugging around the ballerina’s but the high leaps are beyond me these days.
good stuff John! we need radical thinkers on the site.
Ben C said | June 12th 2008 @ 3:31pm | Report comment
Mark H
Going back a few years before he retired I always thought Karl Malone, aka the Mailman, from the Utah Jazz basketball team would make a great second rower. Unlikely a lot of spindly players Karl was built pretty solid at 6′9″, 115 kg and with a reputed 28 inch vertical jump. He was pretty durable missing only a few games in a long career, about 14 years of so from memory.
Ben
Peter K said | June 12th 2008 @ 4:49pm | Report comment
In summary then there are a lot of sports we could attract great athletes from, at a young enough age to retrain, to fill any position we are short in.
It would not cost us a lot since they are semi pro at best, in most cases we would attract the young guys who just miss the cut in their first choice sport.
Then put them into an accelerated rugby academy, and retain the ones who make it.
DaniE said | June 12th 2008 @ 5:49pm | Report comment
Re basketballers, I’m sure there are quite a few Sydney Kings players looking for a job at the moment!
westy said | June 12th 2008 @ 6:08pm | Report comment
Do you blokes need a reality check. The NRL U/20 Toyota Cup puts on display week in week out quality potential rugby players in a professional setting at an age still able to be developed . This is the target not older league wingers.! My mate jokes ” DO you think we could get them to run ours” 15 professional junior teams puts on display means
15 or more halves , over 30 centres etc. including ACT and Queensland and New Zealand teams and not skewed towards the preferences of a handful of junior representative rugby coaches.
Midfielder said | June 12th 2008 @ 7:47pm | Report comment
AFL has been doing it for years so why leave it to them ……….. but it cost more than you think
Cutter said | June 13th 2008 @ 4:41am | Report comment
Darren Clarke and Jeff Fenech both tried to switch to league unsuccessfully. As the Wendell Sailor (and Lote Tuqiri) experiment showed, good athletes dont always have the intuitive feel for rugby.
The best option is to have the good athletes playing rugby to start with. AFL might be a great game, but its not international. I would love to have those athletes available for selection for the wallabies.
Kolwin said | June 13th 2008 @ 8:50am | Report comment
Heres a radical idea!
How about rugby union stating its own under 20’s compteition similar to the NRL’s. That way they stay in Rugby Union.
Peter K said | June 13th 2008 @ 9:55am | Report comment
westy other than my original post explicitly said other than league players who are a tried alternative….
League does not help with props, hookers or locks. Mainly because most league forwards have the one body shape.
This was point of the post to look at innate requirements in those roles and equivalent sports / athletes to fit.
Even in the backs I have noticed that genuine pace is lacking in out and out flyers. The players who were noted for their pace in league that have come across to union are no where near as fast as the fastest union players.
Sailor would of been far better suited as a second rower, great leg drive, broke tackles, power through the legs etc. As a winger he was ok BUT caught from behind time and time again. Rogers, Tuqiri, Tahu same thing, they have some great qualities but do not stand out with exceptional pace.
Remember the competition are players like Habana, Rocokoko, Howlett, Paulser, CauCau, the list goes on and on.
stillmissit said | June 13th 2008 @ 10:17am | Report comment
Peter K - generally you are spot on again the only exception I can think of is Brad Thorn. However he could be a one off, cant think of anyone who played league, then went to union back to league and then back to Union.
Anybody know anything about his background. I suspect he is unique.
The bottom line in this thread is a fundamental one we cant continue getting players where we have in the past, the cup dryeth up.
John Ryan said | June 13th 2008 @ 10:30am | Report comment
Here’s another idea it might be a bit scary, but why not have your own juniors,like other sports,then you wont have to bludge off everyone else,bit like AFL and the taxpayer
stillmissit said | June 13th 2008 @ 10:49am | Report comment
I also want to change my mind about something I always believed as self evident.
The Western Suburbs of Sydney are not a rich untapped source of players. We will get the Kurtley Beale’s and Dave Dennis’ but they will be a short commodity and not a huge rush.
I have been ref’ing some school games out here and I have been shocked at the total lack of understanding about union even amongst the boys who play it each week. If we wanted to attempt it, we would have to start a major education campaign that would take years without any clear results. Their coaches are all union people and obviously want the boys to take up the game but there seems to be a total lack of interest amongst the boys. Would love to be proven wrong on this but it feels like an heroic effort in the face of enormous disinterest.
Could these boys make it in union? many of them would, but they do not get any kudos from their mates for playing union. They believe that they go to union only if they fail to make it in league.
The only thing that will change these boys is if League collapsed and Union took over and that ain’t going to happen any time soon.
I want to make it clear that union is alive and well in the West as it always has been. The subbies are going strongly and Penrith is getting better. Still it is a fringe sport and without some major change it will remain as such.
Michael C said | June 13th 2008 @ 11:19am | Report comment
Midfielder –
attracting domestic basketballers isn’t such an expensive exericse with the present state of that sport!!!! But, for the AFL, many of the kids who they have attracted from basketball, had, invariably either played a fair bit of junior footy, or at least soccer or the like - - and, having a reasonable combination of attributes. Basketball alone doesn’t really suffice. Soccer alone doesn’t really suffice.
For Rugby - - you need to work out what positions - - it is, after all, fairly specialised still.
I watch Rugby 7s and they look like AFL players - - there’s not that much that those full back types do that you desperately need to stick restrict your scope to strictly.
NZ - all blacks, already have an ex AFL kicking coach, the coach Mr.Deans is an admirer of AFL, attended the 2005 GF, has had sessions with AFL coaches and refers to a skills session with Collingwood a few years back - - where, they were pretty evenly matched on most things until it came to kicking. The union boys just couldn’t hit a moving target on the chest.
NOw - Nick Evans, an All-Black of late (at times, I think number 2 for his position - and now heading for Europe) - - played several seasons in the Auckland AFL (in the RU off season), and developed his kicking game - and got better off-season fitness than by playing cricket. He attributed his highly regarded kicking game to this (and the Sydney Swans actually extended him an invite to ‘try out’).
The Wellington Hurricanes professional super 14 squad has even played practice matches of AFL vs the amateur Wellington Tigers.
Why do I mention all this - - well, the Kiwis already seem a little more switched on in looking laterally. In looking to other sports and the attributes especially for key roles or at least for coaches.
Now - we all know what the Wallabies went through with their kicking coach on the eve of the last World Cup.
Now - - thankfully, the new coach, Mr.Deans, is not one of these Australian anti-kicking game zealots - - and, perhaps, just perhaps, we’ll see the ARU embrace the variety of the nation in which they exist.
However -
what will always go against RU is that it’s such a highly technical sport - and that, well, may go against it - but, also may make some ‘conversions’ easier if the position and role can be very well defined.
and, John O’Neill has a bit of work to do to turn around the finances to make it possible to attract players - - at least attract and retain them in Australia - - there’s a bit of leakage from both Union and League to the NH
- - - -
John Ryan -
please define your implication of the AFL ‘bludging’ off everyone else - - and your implication that the AFL do NOT have junior programs………………or, are you just taking every opportunity to take a swipe at the AFL instead of contributing something useful or even interesting to a discussion.
Jameswm said | June 13th 2008 @ 12:31pm | Report comment
Ben C
Interesting you mention Karl Malone at lock. I used to watch him play for the Jazz and wonder how he’d go there too.
Another one was Charles Barkley. Imagine him peeling off the back of a ruck and charging at you, and an extraordinary vertical leap there too.
stillmissit said | June 13th 2008 @ 4:20pm | Report comment
Peter K I also meant to say that I thought Sailor would make a great openside breakaway. He had size, speed and one thing you can say about him he did not lack guts. His tackling and ball handling on the ground skills would have needed work but potentially what a player from that position.
Peter K said | June 13th 2008 @ 4:27pm | Report comment
stillmissit - I responded to westy re Sailor. I stated secondrower, I meant backrower. In particular he would of made a great No 8 with his leg drive from the back of the scrum. Not as good a no 7 because from watching him he wasn’t good picking up the ball on the ground, he was slow to bend and gather, so stealing a ball a bit slow.
Also a pretty handy no 6.
True Tah said | June 13th 2008 @ 4:38pm | Report comment
Concur with Wendell should have been a No. 8 - Wendell did a hell of a lot more than your average winger in terms of getting stuck into rucks and mauls - with a bit better coaching who knows what he could have been.
Aside from league, I think American football players are potentially the only other sports guys who could really take to rugby. Whilst I appreciate the fitness of AFL players, they simply don’t have the strength to compete and take contact.
A few years ago, when Akermanis was suggesting he was going to transfer to rugby, Rod Macqueen came out and said that AFL players are not strong enough, and recounted that when the Wallabies were playing a game in Perth, they did a gym session with the West Coast Eagles, and he said that Gregan was stronger than any of the Eagles players. However if some of these guys were exposed to rugby at a younger age, I have no doubts they could make it to the top.
American footballers on the other hand, have the strength to take the contact, but in some positions they don’t have the stamina. Really we would need to get these blokes playing straight out of school, but the allure and big bucks of the NFL beckon - I was surprised that until very recently, the US Rugby Union didn’t really make much of an effort to get the game at high school level, although I understood that the Soccer Moms are perhaps stopping this from happening?
mudskipper said | June 13th 2008 @ 4:44pm | Report comment
Rugby is attracting to many Golfers and not enough talent more physically challenging sports. Perhaps unearthing players from hybrid sports could be the answer such as the following, but not limited to:
Chessboxing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43Wcbd0dJpQ&eurl=http://onemansblog.com/2007/10/24/the-10-craziest-competitive-sports-you-never-heard-of/
Ladder Racing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee3qw5JSRs8&eurl=http://onemansblog.com/2007/10/24/the-10-craziest-competitive-sports-you-never-heard-of/
Bog Snorkelling
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAh7e9d45_Y&eurl=http://onemansblog.com/2007/10/24/the-10-craziest-competitive-sports-you-never-heard-of/
Hope you enjoyed a glimpse into the future Chaps…
mudskipper said | June 13th 2008 @ 4:48pm | Report comment
Rugby is attracting to many Golfers and not enough talent more physically challenging sports. Perhaps unearthing players from hybrid sports could be the answer such as the following, YouTude the following themes:
Chessboxing
Ladder Racing
Bog Snorkelling
Take a glimpse into the future Chaps…
DaniE said | June 13th 2008 @ 7:01pm | Report comment
Bog snorkelling may have helped both the ABs and the Irish in Wellington last Saturday…
Chris Beck said | June 14th 2008 @ 10:50am | Report comment
I’ve occasionally wondered whether one could construct a rugby squad from NFL players and, if so, what would be the best way to go about it.
What I mean is, some of the lineman are rather incredible athletes, standing 6′ 6″ or greater and 300 pounds. Could a guy like that be sent into the front row or would he be too tall? Is the skill set even close to being appropriate - is what goes on in a scrum close enough to the NFL’s run blocking and pass-protection or is it just too foreign?
Second rowers would, in my estimation, be more difficult. Some of the taller tight ends and linebackers would seem like the best candidates, but guys that are tall enough yet also suitably athletic don’t grow abundantly on the NFL tree.