By Jesse Fink
June 13th 2008 @ 1:47am
The Arnie, Henk and Pim Show
Regular readers of this column will know I’ve been mounting a campaign to get Nicky Carle back into the Socceroos for this weekend’s crunch clash with Qatar in Doha, and it seems from the avalanche of responses both here at The Roar and on The World Game, the rest of Australia seems to agree with me.
Except, of course, for Slippery Jim, whom I suspect is Graham Arnold anyway.
Speaking of Arnold, there has been mounting speculation that his influence in the national team is far more than involved than just handing out Gatorade. And it’s undoubtedly true, as well as possibly counterproductive.
I first raised this particular issue for The Roar way back in December last year.
But to say that Arnold is secretly pulling the tactical and selection strings for the Australian men’s national team would be overstating the case dramatically.
Pim Verbeek is his own man and since arriving in Australia has had the presence of mind to keep Arnold at arm’s length. His real confidant is Henk Duut, who is the huge curly-haired bloke you sometimes see loitering behind Verbeek on the sideline.
Duut has assiduously kept a low profile while Arnold appears to want to be seen running the show. Countless times this week people have come up to me to ask where Arnold – and not Verbeek – got off barking instructions to players during the Iraq WCQ in Dubai.
I think we should give Arnold the benefit of the doubt in this case.
I don’t think he’s doing anything Verbeek wouldn’t have instructed him to do. I remember sitting behind Guus Hiddink and Arnold at the Brazil match in Munich in 2006 and being struck by how much verbal communication Arnold was entrusted with.
While Arnold was screaming and gesticulating wildly, Hiddink would oftentimes turn his face away from the football altogether and stare impassively into space, thinking, thinking, thinking.
What I will, however, entertain is the hypothesis that Verbeek still doesn’t know enough about his players from first-hand viewing, which gives rise to the conspiracy theories about why Brett Holman, for instance, who can run a lot but shoots as straight as a blind man on rum, continues to get called up ahead of Carle.
A popular theory is that Bernie Mandic, Harry Kewell’s agent-manager-hand luggage porter, and a former representative of Holman, has cast a Mandrake-like spell over the national coaching staff. That would appear, however, to be somewhat undermined by the fact that Carle himself was once a client of Mandic’s.
Verbeek has only had the opportunity to see Carle at training and otherwise sought counsel from his assistants (Arnold is a long-time Carle detractor), so it’s no real surprise that he is yet to be given the manager’s full confidence.
When he finally gets some game time, I’m sure Carle will blitz all before him, like he did when he belatedly got some decent game time against Nigeria.
Unfortunately, reports coming out of Doha suggest it’s not going to be this weekend, with Holman and Mark Bresciano trialled as a combination behind lone striker Kewell in training.
I don’t care what anyone says. Carle is ten times the player Holman is and had he been given the same opportunities as the Dutch-based Holman, he would be as indispensable a part of the current first-picked XI as Mark Schwarzer or Jason Culina.
But Carle, so we heard from Verbeek during the week, dribbles too much in training.
Good grief. Would Luiz Felipe Scolari say the same of Cristiano Ronaldo? You would hope not.
Let Nicky express himself, Pim. Let’s see some magic – and a good result. The two don’t have to be mutually exclusive.
Jesse Fink's columns now appear every Wednesday and Friday on The Roar.
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Alex said | June 13th 2008 @ 9:05am | Report comment
But Carle, so we heard from Verbeek during the week, dribbles too much in training.
C’mon Jesse, who really wants to see a player try and create something? I’d much rather see Holman running. Not doing anything else either, just running. Maybe chuck in a couple of scuffed off-target shots on goal.
If Carle had any sense, he would have instructed his agent to get him a move to Holland, not Bristol City. He would be a shoe-in for a Socceroos start if he was playing for Roda or Willem II. The same goes for you too, Nathan Burns. Culina and Wilkshire are nearly the first players picked for the national team these days and I’m sure ‘Poetry in Motion’ Holman will be joining them soon.
Hopovski said | June 13th 2008 @ 9:06am | Report comment
Hey Jesse,
I saw Simon Hill interviewing Pim on Fox Sports news this morning and Pim made it sound like it will be tough for ‘Carledona’ to even get a run off the bench against Qatar. Pim said that Carle has some obvious quality about him, but also some obvious weaknesses.
Any idea what these weaknesses are? Maybe defensive capability…?
Hopovski
sledgeross said | June 13th 2008 @ 9:14am | Report comment
Geez, do you have any recent football articles NOT associated with Nicky Carle. Its getting monotonous mate.
We KNOW you are a Carle fan. (nuff said)
We KNOW you are not enarmoured with Arnold.
We KNOW Carle should get a run because he is an asset we can use (ohhh, how we could use them)
We KNOW you think the ‘roo’s should play a more expansive, attractive game (I agree).
Cmon Jesse, youre better than that, lets see some variety. Your blogs are looking as predictable as Graham Arnolds tactics!!!
(having said that, I always love reading them!)
Kazama said | June 13th 2008 @ 9:52am | Report comment
I’ve seen a few interviews where Arnie has spoken about needing to play “Asian football.” Judging from the matches I’ve watched, Asian football is more about enterprising attacking play than running around for 90 minutes trying to get a 0-0. Did Iraq come to Suncorp playing green football and trying to scrape a draw? Did Iraq dump guys like Younus Mahmoud and Nashat Akram for less skillful but supposedly more organised players?
No they did not, and for Pim to do the opposite and play guys like Holman ahead of not only Carle but also Bresciano (and Nathan Burns, James Troisi and David Williams - all better options than Holman IMO) suggests that he doesn’t think we are as good as Iraq, and indeed Qatar. This is not the attitude I want from the guy who we’ve backed to get us to the World Cup. It’s not the way I want my team to be playing, either. In Germany, we were the ambitious but unlucky Aussies. At the moment, we are the boring, boring Aussies - and we’re still not winning anything.
Ben said | June 13th 2008 @ 9:57am | Report comment
Hopovski,
Major weaknesses you ask? How about a complete inability to do anything with his right foot other than keep himself upright, he couldn’t kick his way out of a wet paper bag with his right foot when he left the Jets. Admittedly I’ve seen bugger all footage of Carle since he headed to the giddy heights of Turkey and the championship, so maybe he’s overcome this.
Having said that, I agree that he should be given a couple of decent runs to see if he can perform on the international stage, with donkeys like Emerton (who seems to have the ability to run all day and that’s it), Carney (who is living of the reputation of the Nigeria goal), Wilkshire and Holman(who know why they’re in the team?!?!) and even Allsopp getting a go it seems bizarre that Carle isn’t even considered. Although it does seem Pim’s trying to steer us in the direction of the into the good old Aussie soccer tradition of hoof the ball upfield and hope someone latches onto it, so his style doesn’t really fit with that strategy.
sledgeross said | June 13th 2008 @ 10:00am | Report comment
I think we have to differentiate between potential and reality.
Im not a Holman fan by any means, but he is an active type player that covers the pitch, In reality, is he any worse than Brett Emerton?
Kazama, why are the players you names “better options” than Holman? Burns is an A League player, Troisi a reserve player and Williams cant get off the bench in a third tier Eurpean comp. We love to talk about Kaz Patafta as well, but despite being signed by a top club in a second tier Euro league, whats he ever done. Holman (despite not being able to knock a pea of a chop) is an experienced and battle hardened player.
I dont think we need any different players than the ones we have in camp currently, we just need to change our tactics.
Mick of Newie said | June 13th 2008 @ 10:03am | Report comment
I think Carle has Buckley’s of getting game time.
The more interesting issue of the week is Pim’s tactical backflip. He now appears to acknowledge that his 5 5 0 formation was wrong. Having resigned myself to no Carle can I suggest a better front 3 for Qatar would be Kewell and Bresc behind Djite rather than the Holman and Bresc behind Kewell.
clayton in japan said | June 13th 2008 @ 10:04am | Report comment
recently a couple of good players have missed out on national jerseys because they don`t fit their coach`s vision of how the team should play.
trezequet for france. raul for spain. so it isn`t unusual.
carle is better off forgetting about the national team, and just try to be the best player he can in his club career. i hope he doesn`t try to turn into a runaround a lot, typical aussie player in an attempt to get into the NT. that`d be a loss. dribbles too much? don`t change mate.
Kazama said | June 13th 2008 @ 10:17am | Report comment
Sledgeross, they’re all better options IMO because at least they can give us something we don’t have, i.e some creativity and also they can all find the net which is more than I can say for “Holminho.” I have the utmost faith that if any of those three guys were given the opportunity they’d at least give us a chance of getting on the scoreboard.
Also, just for the record, Burns isn’t an A-League player any more; he’s just signed with AEK Athens
Salvation said | June 13th 2008 @ 10:28am | Report comment
I read somewhere that Tim Cahill rates Nicky Carle as three times the better player than Nashat Akram, no less. Tim can see Nick’s potential… I guess it takes a creative attacking midfielder to know the value of such a position.
But, the show must go on.
Wizbang said | June 13th 2008 @ 10:55am | Report comment
Australia have historically suffered from players with an inability to beat their opposite man. In this team we have good runners and good passers however, if you are a player who can not beat me individually I know that you have to pass the ball to make any further progress. This makes defending against such players so much easier. In this squad I think we have about three players who can individually and consistantly beat their marker, Kewell, Carle and Thompson at the moment we are playing only one, most quality teams play up to six of this type of player, go figure.
Millster said | June 13th 2008 @ 11:45am | Report comment
Salvation - the cynical side in me feels that Cahill’s view comes from the fact that his goals would look better off the end of a Carle pass than off the crumbs of some long-ball to Kennedy’s scone. No disrespect to Timmy though, I love the guy, but I just thenk he knows what kinds of players help him to look his best.
Back to the main question though, I couldn’t believe it when Holman came on ahead of EITHER Bresh or Carle in the game last weekend. But I do think that Pim’s mind is made up at the moment, and not in Carle’s favour. So my main realistic hope is that we get a better forward structure tomorrow night. I’d like to see Djite start and play most of the game, with Kewell and whoever else Pim wants in attacking midfield playing off him.
Oh, and I can’t believe some of the comments here about Carney and Emmo. Kewell’s goal in Briasbane for example was off a great Emmo cross. I might be going blind in my old age but those guys do offer something a bit more than the Wilkshires, Beauchamp’s and Holman’s of this world. I wouldn’t confine them to the trash can just yet.
Dickroo of Blacktown said | June 13th 2008 @ 11:54am | Report comment
I agree Holman is not as good as Carle in term of technique. His shooting is 3 out of 10, but his speed, stamina and positioning are second to none in the current Socceroos Doha camp. His body can adapt well in some extreme condition – hot, altitude.
Carle is clearly a very talented playmaker, who is more effective in a slower passing game to seek the cracks of the defence armour. If the Socceroos attack can be built around Carle, we would have sought out the lack of creativity problem. But neither Arnie nor Pim would gamble on him in those crucial games. If Socceroos defeat Qatar tomorrow, Carle will be started against China in ANZ stadium so Pim will have an experimental match to take close look at him.
A 4-1-3-2 system emphasising short quick passes though midfield (The Turkish played on the Euro Cup) would be ideal for Carle as well as McDonald (he has not been served as well as at Celtic):
—Emerton—North—Coyne—Carney—
——————Culina———————-
—–Bresh——-Carle——–Kewell—–
—–Djite——–McDonald—-
This would be the most attacking minded formation for the available players in Doha. Rob Bann could have helped Socceroos qualified already, if he was the coach.
Alex said | June 13th 2008 @ 12:33pm | Report comment
I agree with Millster about Djite. I feel he should definitely start, even though he almost certainly won’t. Why bring a player like him on after 60 mins if we are chasing the game when you can put him on from the start and apply pressure on the opposition immediately? He can hold up the ball, is good in the air and on the ground and has a physical presence that none of our other available forwards have, which could help against the Qatari defence. He is also excellent defensively ie. he hassles defenders when the opposition have the ball and tracks back well.
His inclusion would also bring Kewell into the game more, rather than isolating him up front.
fatboi-v- said | June 13th 2008 @ 12:53pm | Report comment
jesse fink. i have annointed you along with craig foster as prophets of our wonderful game.
for years we’ve had the late great johnny warren crying out in the wilderness, pumping us up,
giving us the dream and vision to one day not just make world cups but to win it.
keep holding up the beacon for beautiful sexy football. there will come a day when our national
team will be filled with technically brilliant skillful players who are tactically superb and ultimately
world clarshhhh. without these flair players, i can understand why pim wants to battle for 1-0
wins and draws. i hope he realises soon that with flair players ala nicky carle, we can dominate
teams, thus creating more shots on goal, thus hopefully scoring more goals. its so simple!
Slippery Jim said | June 13th 2008 @ 1:57pm | Report comment
sledgeross, I think you put it in a nutshell in saying that we need to differentiate between potential and reality. Players should be played based on current form and performance, not reputation or how good they look with the wind in their hair (which I suspect is one of Jesse’s criteria).
What a shame we couldn’t turn the spotlight on another player in the squad just once, instead we get yet another thinly disguised love note to Nick Carle.
To say I am the only one with doubts about Nick Carle is a bit melodramatic, Jesse (which runs true to form!). As I recall Galileo was also in the minority in rejecting the geocentric view held by the majority in the 1600’s, but that didn’t make him any less right.
At least for the time being, the only man who matters, Pim agrees with me.
That said, if Nick Carle does lift his game and has a successful run for his club or the Socceroos I am more than happy to change my mind about him…good luck with that.
Ben of Phnom Penh said | June 13th 2008 @ 2:41pm | Report comment
I rate Holman higher than many here on this blog, I just think he needs to be played correctly. Call it a gut feel however I think once he starts finding the back of the net he is going to prove a handful.
Bruce Djite remains for me the man to be used if a lone striker is to be employed. I think he needs to be given a chance in a pressure match and the Qatar game would be ideal. I’d prefer for him to be given a start however I don’t think that will be the case. It would also be interesting to see how Bruce combines with the likes of Holman as he can create opportunities for fast AM’s by drawing defenders.
As for Nicky, yes please. Even if he comes on as a sub I’d prefer it to be earlier in the game, say half-time, so that he has a decent run. Certainly we need some spark.
fatboi-v- said | June 13th 2008 @ 3:03pm | Report comment
i’m glad theres a debate about nicky carle and the national team. if we were all inclined like slippery jim we’d all be accepting mediocrity. if we want to talk about reality, well the reality is that brett holman will never be worthy of tying nicky carle’s shoelaces, he is a dud. pim is a dud. arnold was always a dud.
and if the likes of simon hill, jesse fink, les murray, craig foster and timmy cahill are coming out and saying nicky carle needs to be playing in the national team well i would take their word over any doofus who thinks otherwise. hehe
Slippery Jim said | June 13th 2008 @ 3:25pm | Report comment
fatboi-v- What’s your definition of mediocrity? My definition is playing for a second tier team in the English Championship and going an entire season without scoring a goal, despite being an alleged attacking midfielder.
Come to think of it, that’s my definition of sub-standard.
Graeme Arnold, being the manager to play him in the most games must be, in your definition some sort of a colossal genius mastermind (pfffftttt!). And if Pim Verbeek and Guus Hiddink fit your definition of a football ‘doofus’ due to neither playing sub-par Nick Carle, I think you need to get a new dictionary.
Millster said | June 13th 2008 @ 3:42pm | Report comment
I think Ben of PP makes a good point about Holman. I cringe whenever I see him in the attack. But with his particular attributes he may just make for a pretty handy option out wide, say subbing for Carney or Emmo.
Mick of Newie said | June 13th 2008 @ 3:52pm | Report comment
Jim
raking over old coals is a popular theme but a point of order, Nick scored several goals while in Turkey. That was this season. He didn’t score in half a season at Bristol. But some of that was playing a much deeper role. The other point made by many including Tim Cahill is that he is a creater of opportunities. There was no creatvitiy on show last week.
On the mediocrity issue can we accept that all of the Socceroos are journeymen (with one or two arguable exceptions). This debate is about how we play. Carle would give us something different to the current lot. I would like to see him given a chance.
Slippery Jim said | June 13th 2008 @ 4:36pm | Report comment
Mick of Newie, those excuses sound pretty thin and desperate considering the hype some sections of the media surround Nick Carle with.
I was, if you read my post, referring to his season with Bristol City if you need that clarified.
I had to laugh at your statement he scored “several goals” in Turkey. Not only was he playing for a club in the nether regions of the table of a nether regions league, as with many of the statements made by glassy-eyed Carle fans about the man, this one is a classic of fudging figures and trying to create the myth of a player of substance out of a player of ineptitude. In the cold light of day, he actually scored only the 1 solitary goal for Gençlerbirliği none months ago, way back in September ‘07, which is in fact the last goal he has scored for any club. Please wait while I engage reverse gear and backpedal on my heretofore anti-Carle stance, due to the crushing weight of this undeniable evidence of his incredible near-superhuman ability…
Obviously it is little wonder the Turks couldn’t get rid of him quick enough.
Does one goal in nine months and over 30 games make him the cutting-edge world-class players Jesse and other sentimentalists would have us believe, the one man solution to all of Pim’s problems?
No.
By all means, keep trying to promote the guy, but I remain unconvinced until he actually does something on the field of play to prove he is an asset to the Socceroos.
Salvation said | June 13th 2008 @ 4:36pm | Report comment
Playing regular 2nd tier, out of position, and finishing high on the table, is no disgrace, nor hardly “mediocre”.
Especially for your first season in the UK.
Jim, forget the dictionary, you need a theasurus, mate.
Cpaaa said | June 13th 2008 @ 5:41pm | Report comment
you can write these articles the same over and over again….i dont mind. until it gets through pims head that carle needs a chance. sadly this chance i feel wont be given until we get flogged instead of just tripping past our opponents.
bruce djite carefull with this guy!
no need to put unnecassary pressure on the kid and talked up as our future…we are still yet to see his best.
remember the dukes proved himself as top goal scorer in three different countries to earn him his status.
let the Bruce evolve ….
Koala Bear said | June 13th 2008 @ 7:57pm | Report comment
I too want Nicky Carle in … But I also want to know is there anybody out there think a move of Brett Emerton to the central defender’s spot is worth a try.?. I have my doubts with the combinations we have at the moment, as I think we are putting two inexperience players in the two most important positions on the park.. I know that most will dismiss the idea. But for me Emerton is the most experienced, the biggest, strongest, and fastest back four player we have. Far more experience than North who is a left back in the HAL.. What I propose is a straight swap.. I think Emmo’s experience in the top flight in the EPL should be better utilised..
~~~~~~~~
KB
westy said | June 13th 2008 @ 10:19pm | Report comment
Carle in…..Bresciano,Cahill, Kewell, Grella……..which do you drop……Carle and Kewell are two of the best one footed players in the country. Always remember Nick….loved being an attacking midfielder…use to bludge in defence……check out his training times and beep tests…he is not the fittest boy on the park.
Midfielder said | June 13th 2008 @ 11:19pm | Report comment
Jes,
…Same agian…. Carle …………… Holman well over Carle ……….. never.
But in the last game our three most creative mids in Harry, Nick & Mark, 270 mins, well Harry went about at 60 or so mins so 200 mins without our creative players on the park.
All teams need balance …………. we have plenty of players to run all day. TBH I was madder that Bresciano did not get a run.
I have seen James Troisi play on three times at national level, and he can also be added to the mix, he may also fall into the run all day type as well. Holland & Burns also.
So who are our creative best my order, Harry, Bress, Nick, Troisi, Burns, Holland to name but a few, maybe add Elrich and some of the Olyroos.
The best thing you said Jes was to get rid of GA without doubt the living proof that the Peter principal exists.
So Arnold out & balance and maybe Nick in
NUFCMVFC said | June 13th 2008 @ 11:30pm | Report comment
Does Kewell dribble too much when he was on the wing? what about that big run vs Croatia?
This is perhaps where we need to be careful about “how Dutch we go”, I recall an article from way back when Baan made mention of the fact that Holland were becoming too structured and from too young an age and were having to import a lot of the creative players from Brazil etc for the Eredivise.
Culina has improved since the WC2006, but he is still of the “workhorse mould”, but in more of the Dutch technical sense, and it is quite odd that we are seeing Holman and Culina put before the likes of Bresciano and Carle, while Harry Kewell up front by himself? Put Kewell on the wing, and provide proper service to the front strikers
I think we need to think back to the 3-1 WCQ against Bahrain, absolute tripe in the first half, second half we come back out with a different structure, a 4-4-2 if I recall correctly, so some Striker presence up front, McDonald got a few chances but was still green adn with Motherwell back in those days, but he still got the chances, it was a Strike and generally flair oriented player in Archie Thompson that got the equaliser, and we worked and moved the ball around better, rather than just hoofing it forward, Skokos second goal was a good strike, but the third from a penalty came about because we were able to actually get forward and into the box etc.
Although personally I can attribute a lot of that to Neeskens, what a disaster letting him slip proved to be, I wonder if room can be made for him if he and Rijkaard do leave Barcalona, would he be able to fill Baans TD role and still get heavily involved in Socceroos affairs? Who cares who it pisses off, the guy clearly knows what he’s doing. If he can be at Barcalona with their good ethics of being with a Dutch coach and still have creative flair players and fit them in he should be good…
Another issue I think is that I suspect Arnold has let being in charge for a year go to his head, and if Slater and Cockerills reaction is anything to go by, Arnold being assistant to someone who was supposedly his equal as coach of Korea at the Asian Cup is somehow some kind of injustice and beneath him, I am wondering if it is starting to become an issue now?
Last thing is that I hope Koreas performance is more to do with Korea and not to do with Pim, they have become overstructured and one dimensional, Australia should embrace its diversity and allow people like Carle to be given the oppurtunity to flourish, at least to ensure dynamicism
Midfielder said | June 13th 2008 @ 11:31pm | Report comment
KB
Brett Emerton to center back …………. I have warned you before to take the blue pills not the pink ones, get the old ladies to ensure the blue pills.
IMO Matthew Spiranovic should play, he plays for FC Nurnberg, Germany FFS.
Either Kenndy or Djite to start as well.
Dickroo
your midfielder & Strikers.are
——————Culina———————-
—–Bresh——-Carle——–Kewell—–
—–Djite——–McDonald—-
We need to stop goals as well as score them
Midfielder said | June 13th 2008 @ 11:35pm | Report comment
NUFCMVFC
Well said about Neeskens ………. how we let the guy go ……….. god only knows.
Koala Bear said | June 14th 2008 @ 10:10am | Report comment
Midfielder,
I think Brett as one of the central defenders is worth a try.. Remember Lucas Neill was at left back for the Footballroos until Guus came into the picture and as much as I like North as an emerging player … The one thing Brett has over all the others is years of experience at the top level .. Along with his body frame as the the best of what we have tried to put there since the retirement of Popa, Moore, and Vidmar.. What we need is a player with years of top flight experience in that spot.. Not novices..
No one thought at the beginning that Lucas would work in the central spot, but look at him know.. Yes I would like to see Brett line up with Lucas in Sydney for the last game as the Qatar game may be too early to contemplate.. What would Brett bring to the central defenders spot; 1) height; 2) pace on the turn; 3) strength in the air; 4) comfort on the ball at his feet ; 5) he can run with the ball from deep to launch an attack;.. Yes I think its definitely worth a try.. It will also allow a reshuffle of the midfield to bring in a creative Carle..
~~~~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | June 14th 2008 @ 10:23am | Report comment
IMO Matthew Spiranovic should play, he plays for FC Nurnberg, Germany FFS.
Midfielder,
MS is not a first choice player for FC Nurnberg.. I have only heard of him coming off the bench .. Too young and inexperienced for that position just yet .. Definitely one for the future or at left/right back .. I stress the central two defenders spots are the most important positions on the field and need the oldest experienced heads in the team..
~~~~~~~
KB
Salvation said | June 14th 2008 @ 1:30pm | Report comment
Westy … the answer is wilkshire or holman…take yer pick
jimbo said | June 14th 2008 @ 9:57pm | Report comment
Pimbo and Arnold don’t like creativity and dribbling, what they want to see is passing from one player to the other to keep possession and waste time, then when you run out of ideas kick the ball up to your lone striker to chase.
They’re playing for another bore draw against Guitar tonight.
The only time Carle has started a game for the Footballroos was against Nigeria, when he was voted the man of the match.
Rob Baan was the manager and Graham Arnold was on the other side of the world with the Olyroos.
Get rid of Graham Arnold from the sidelines and start Carle as an attacking midfielder or second striker against Guitar and I am more confident we will wrap up the first round of qualification tonight.
Koala Bear said | June 15th 2008 @ 8:01pm | Report comment
Brett Emerton attacking midfielder.. has proven today he can play anywhere and why not a central defender.. This is one spot we can’t fill and Brett will be a natural.. North is too short and Beauchamp is too slow on the turn.. We have a wealth of midfielders and backs but we have yet to fill the two central positions; well one along side Lucas Neil and Brett’s height, touch and power will be ideal.. This will allow a Nicky Carle to come in and create..
~~~~~~~
KB
dasilva said | June 15th 2008 @ 10:28pm | Report comment
Brett holman played well this match. Provided with some telling pass. The second goal assist was nice to watch. But since this is probably his first good competitive match for the socceroos the jury is still out. He makes some dangerous runs pass the defenders and has good stamina and work rate but his finishing and his technique (his dribbling is laughable) is still quite terrible.
He can offer something but he does have serious flaws which may stop him from performing consistently. I hope he prove me wrong I still believe we have better options than Holman.
I thought Jade north had a decent game. He seems to step up to the level. My concerns from the match is Beauchamp and Carney. Beauchamp seems to be too slow, and has been guilty of ball watching (maybe not in this match but in previous ones). Quintana seems to be targetting beauchamp and is regularly beating him. It’s a shame and he seems to be lacking confidence and match fitness (lack of regular game time for Nurnberg). He had a excellent debut against Bahrain years ago but has yet to reproduce that performance.
Dave carney has been playing poorly for a long while now. He’s very gifted and skilled with the ball and offers attacking drive down the flanks but all of that is wasted as his crossing and passing is dreadful. He also doesn’t seem to have the fitness to play in Asia and his defending still needs working. We really need some alternative for the left back position. Perhaps wilkshire could play there (he’s not as flair player as carney but is more solid and his crossing/passing and fitness is far superior) and what’s happen to Scott Chipperfield?
jimbo said | June 15th 2008 @ 10:49pm | Report comment
Didn’t think we would beat Guitar (draw maybe) but very happy to be proven wrong.
Well done Footballroos - Asian Champions of Group 1.
Emmo (and Carney) are better attacking players than defenders and I hope Pimbo has got the message now that we play better, when we have an attacking formation.
Would like to see Carney swapped with a specialist left sided full back, so he is freer to attack like Emmo did this morning.
Also please, please, please play some more attacking players like Carle, Thommo and Griffiths in Sydney.
Cheers Pimbo.
Chippers is saving himself for an A-League spot with the Wollongong Dragons.
sledgeross said | June 16th 2008 @ 12:03pm | Report comment
The thing about opinions of players is that it can polarise their ability.
By everyone calling for Carles inclusion, it gives the perception that perhaps he is a better player than he actually is.
Dont get me wrong, I think he should get a run, I think he would be an asset, but I also think Pims got a method. He’s the coach, and he hasnt really let us down results wise, so Ill reserve my judgement until after we do/dont qualify.
dasilva said | June 16th 2008 @ 12:30pm | Report comment
Agree that Carle is a bit overrated . I think he should play but I feel that he has become a socceroos legend by not playing. By not seeing him play, its sort of add a bit of mystique to his ability. People like Jesse has called him the greatest attacking talent that Australia has which is bit of an overstatenent. It seems like a case of absence make your heart go fonder rather then Carle really being that great. The fact is that he hasn’t don’e enough to impress Pim. If he was such a great player then he would have. This means that he has a serious weakness to his game. Whether that weakness is enough to keep him out of the team is debateable.
Salvation said | June 16th 2008 @ 2:17pm | Report comment
If we roll over and say “Yeah, Carle is not worthy”…then what can we say about others like Nathan Burns???
Perhaps a star in the making, with great ball control and dribbling skills… with A league beginningsin a non dutch club…
What kind of message will this send to PV?
It’s Ok to ignore ball carriers? Hard graft is better than finesse?
I’d like to think it’s unimaginable that Burns be relegated to the society of luxury players, but Pim has a plan, a method, no doubt. It’s not looking for risk, or gambles… it’s looking for results. And that’s about it.
sledgeross said | June 16th 2008 @ 2:29pm | Report comment
I dont think Pim, or anyone has said Carle is not worthy. Rather, there are players who would perform better in the team dynamic. Cmon, look at the facts. Bristol City notwithstanding, Carle hasnt had success overseas (in Turkey and France). He has played half a season in the Championship where he has shown improvement without being exceptional. Im no Holman fan (especially under Arnold) but he has played in the Eredivisie against top quality opposition week in week out.
We have to realise that we are in a whole different league now. It doesnt just come down to two games every 4 years to qualify for the WC. We have to accumulate points in the group stages. Pim knows that and has done that. People bemoaning the lack of creativity and “clarshh” should realise very few teams are equipped to play so freely. Italy played some downright horrible football in the last World Cup, but guess where they ended up.
Salvation said | June 16th 2008 @ 2:56pm | Report comment
You want to be a Greece (Euro 2004), for this coming Tourny at SAfric? …..that will be the day i miss my first wc
Sledge, it seems we have very different ideas of football, and competition, no doubt.
I am all for passing, possession, countering even, aerial routes etc …but Pim’s team “dynamic” is not to dribble too much. If you took all the ball carrying players out of the world game, you would loose at least half the audience…and 90% of the money. I recall many goals scored by HK, no less, when he dribbled and took on a player.
My how we all forget.
You want a bumper sticker saying that Socceroos are world best…i want one that says Socceroos are world class.
That is the difference.
Salvation said | June 16th 2008 @ 3:03pm | Report comment
Actually, i’d take both bumper stickers ; )
sledgeross said | June 16th 2008 @ 3:38pm | Report comment
I concur with you mate, but Im also realistic. Despite the patriotic diatribe, we simply dont have enough world class, skilled players to pull it off. We have to play to our strengths, and try to negate the oppositions. Its ok when your team includes Robben, Messi, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Deco, Kaka etc, but not Grella, McDonald, Kennedy, Carney.
Whats the first thing you are taught as a junior? Let the ball do the work. Im not just talking the Jack Charlton heave ho theory, rather pass the ball around and have a fluidity of movement. I agree, lets aspire to be that team.
In the meantime, lets be realistic mate. You gotta do what you gotta do. SOmetimes the situation will dictate the way you can play. I want the Socceroo’s to be able to play whatever the game dictates at a certain time. If that means grinding out a 1 nil win in stifling heat in Doha, or Bangkok, or Jakarta, then so be it. If we do well in a World Cup, more kids will aspire to wear the Green and Gold, and will be multi skilled and able to play “clarshh” football that the idealistic and the indoctrinated prattle on about. You gotta walk beforte you can dribble down the left wing and score. (BTW IM a Leeds fan, so I certainly havent forgot Harry Kewells scintillating dribble and drives!)
I think bumper stickers are for wankers myself. All I can say is if you want to watch a world class team, watch Holland. They have never won a world cup though have they?(Did win Euro 88).
sledgeross said | June 16th 2008 @ 3:40pm | Report comment
BTW, I wasnt calling you a wanker, I just dont like bumper stickers. Having said that, I would put either of the two you mentioned on the car though!
Salvation said | June 16th 2008 @ 4:07pm | Report comment
Fair Play ; )
I don’t necessarily see Australian football so much in the wilderness. We have talent, and more importantly we have midfielders in the youth coming through who look up to the ball carriers of this world. Let’s not send the message that it’s better to grind a game with a defensive possession football than to (intelligently) dominate with midfield build-ups.
If you tie up a baby elephant, and cut the string after a certain age…it will remain walking in the same radius for the rest of it’s life. People and countries get used to playing a certain way. Grinding is important at times, but out of habit is useless. You can also make a mistake at playing expansive football out of habit too, i will admit that.
Your meantime will never happen, tho i speculate, if we not give playmakers and ball carriers a decent go… today.
dasilva said | June 16th 2008 @ 4:26pm | Report comment
I think the way you play is just as important as the results. Sports is an entertainment industry. What made people fall in love with the game. It’s normally silky skills from world class players and excellent team goals. I love the game watching Zidane play as well as seeing the attacking style of football Australia played under Terry Venables (and the resulting heartbreak). Now people who says they rather win than look pretty may be right from the fans point of the view (I certainly rather have Australia qualify to world cup playing ugly then not qualify playing pretty) but it’s not going to win any fans. Now countries with establish football culture and tradition can sustain result driven football and maintain a large surporters base but a country like Australia can not. If people watch the A-leagues or our national team playing and see boring football they will just switch to another channel and watch AFL, Rugby, cricket and tennis etc. We as a fans may want to see our team win at cost but the people we want to convert to follow the game of football couldn’t give a stuff if the team from their city or country (to a lesser extent) win. You have to make people fall in love with the game of football watching our national team or a-league team play in the same way we the football fan falled in love in the beginning.
Now there are cases of people jumping on the bandwagon of success but they will dissapear when results don’t go on your way. however if your team plays attractive football - I think you’ll find that the fans will not dissappear when results aren’t that successful because when they go see a match they will be entertain (look at consistent high crowds for queensland roar when they did not make the final for the first two years of a-league and have a terrible home record). Our national team and all of the A-leagues club have an obligation to play attractive football because we needs more fans.
sledgeross said | June 16th 2008 @ 4:27pm | Report comment
I dont see us as in the wilderness either mate, I see us as in our infancy as a footballing nation. We have to keep building the brand up, and not let it disappate like it did after our first WC. SMall steps are needed, and we have to find the best way to play. A style that takes into account our skill level, size and speed of players, our physical aspects, and the nature of Australian culture. We should look to copy anyone, because we are all different.
Towser said | June 16th 2008 @ 4:40pm | Report comment
Ball players are but one element that makes up a football player. If every team in the world had 3 0r 4 Ronaldos(Man U) then we could agree that every country in the world should be teaching kids how to emulate him.
Be he,Messi etc are exceptions not the rule. You cant create them & the difference between them ,their creativity & Nick Carle is impact on a match. So far in my book Nick Carle & impact aren’t an item.
PIm is there to do a job. Results are what counts ,the bread & butter. Did Paraguay beat Brazil Yesterday because they had world class ball playing geniuses. Sure, OK name one Paraguayan off the top of your head.
PIm picks Holman. Holman does the job & has a hand in 3 goals. Are you confident Nick Carle would have done the same?
Results are all that countsin International competitive football. Nice to win in a swashbuckling manner like Holland at the moment. But will they be there at the end like Greece was last time?
Their track record is not good at the sharp end of tournaments.
How else do you explain that swimming is consistently in the top 2 of Australian sports in interest throughout the nation.
Not a lot of creativity in Thorpie pounding through the water like a torpedo.
sledgeross said | June 16th 2008 @ 4:47pm | Report comment
Roque Santa Cruz from balckburn scored against Brazil didnt he?
Towser said | June 16th 2008 @ 4:58pm | Report comment
Dasilva
Agree the A-League like the EPL etc is about entertainment as much as results.
International football is about results full stop. If its entertaing thats a bonus.
Otherwise English football wouldn’t exist.
Italy win. Their very rarely entertaining.
Brazil win they can be entertaining.
Australia is a country that loves winners(see swimming example in previous post).
Football in Australia until recently has never been a winner. Success at International level brings respect, brings momentum, brings money, brings growth. If we produce a Ronaldo or Messi along the way fine(And with an organised creative coaching structure we will) but I wont fret if we dont and win a World Cup one day with a bunch of well drilled Brett Holmans.
dasilva said | June 16th 2008 @ 5:49pm | Report comment
First thing - swimmers is rarely a sports that express creativity. The entertainment involve in watching swimming, running is different to the entertainment in a game like football.
I don’t deny the importance of results. I just belief that both results and entertainment are equally important for respect. To be successful you have to do both. Italy is one of the most dislike country for neutral supporters in the world and I don’t want Australia to be like that. If we play cynical win at all cost football it damages the reputation of our country even if we are successful. In any cases every country have a national identity in the way they play football. Isn’t it better for our national identity to play a style of football that makes people fall in love with the game.
Its true that Australia loves a winner but we also like team that gives it a go and go out trying to win a game rather then coming in with a defensive defeatist attitudes. We also celebrate the adventurous underdogs and the gallant defeat (the gallipoli spirit). Its the reason why the socceroos captures the heart of the nation (as well as we were successful) and the same reason why the 2-0 loss to brazil is celebrated as much as any other matches in the world cup. If its just about result then you wouldn’t hear stories about how brave the soccerroos were against brazil and how we gave it a go. I was certainly proud of their efforts due to the way we played. The loss to Italy was another gallant defeat that was celebrated. Nevertheless Hiddink was criticise that he didn’t made attacking substitution when there was a red card. He wasn’t criticise not only because we lost but also because we didn’t give it a go which is against Australian culture. We didn’t attack when we had the chance. If we made attacking substitution and created a few scoring chance and still lost it would have added to the legends of the Socceroos.
Sorry if I sound overly romantic but to me that’s what make soccer a great sports.
Salvation said | June 16th 2008 @ 7:29pm | Report comment
Rocky Santa Cruz is Paraguayan? He is a gun for Blackburn… good on him!!
And Towser if our goal as a Country is to make Football popular… then that’s not a good enough reason to mutilate the wonderful game of football by accepting (and promoting by you) substandard tactics. Geez, it’s really not worth it.
dasilva said | June 16th 2008 @ 8:08pm | Report comment
From what I heard Brazil came into the match with defensive attitude playing 3 defensive midfielders (mineiro, gilberto silva and gilberto) and was going for a draw and was punish for it. The brazil side was lacking in class with no kaka and ronaldinho. Dunga seems like a very pragmatic and non-adventurous coach. It’s a shame how Brazil no longer believes in joga bonito as they used to be the role model other countries aspire to.
johnny bridge said | June 16th 2008 @ 10:07pm | Report comment
Nick Carle has yet to deliver in a big game. I cannot recall him ripping it apart in Aleague final series and falied to do so in playoff against Bristol City. His lack of athleticism makes him unsuited for top class football .His set of skills are as much a danger to his own team as they are to opponents. Correct me if I am wrong but I cannot recall seeing any particularly creative play from him besides attempting one- two passes and he doesn’t cross the ball particulary well . Summary; best suited for Futsal.
dasilva said | June 17th 2008 @ 1:54am | Report comment
I was at hindmarsh stadium during the preliminary finals between Adelaide vs Newcastle. Adelaide won by penalties but Nicky Carle absolutely destroyed us.The amount of defence splitting passes by Nicky carle especially during extra time had me almost having a heart attack.It was only poor finishing that stop Newcastle from winning. Sorry but Nick Carle was a class above everyone else in the match. He didn’t rip apart for Bristol City as he was playing as a defensive midfielder for them. He played deep made tough tackles and start the attack for the team. The reason why he hasn’t scored a goal is he played deep and most of his chance are outside the box (although Carle never was a prolific scorer , both in A league as well as overseas).
sledgeross said | June 17th 2008 @ 9:58am | Report comment
So he had a few good games in the A League. Im surprised Abramovich isnt after him. Maybe he can team up with Ian Fyfe at Chelsea
dasilva said | June 17th 2008 @ 12:04pm | Report comment
nah I see him ripping up in Barcelona with messi and co and with Bruce Djite up front
Midfielder said | June 17th 2008 @ 12:48pm | Report comment
johnny bridge
I disagree in a Olympic cup qualifer against NZ a number of years ago, we were in real trouble, on comes Nick early in the second half and toen them to shreds.
As I have often said for Nick to get in who do you leave out.
dasilva said | June 17th 2008 @ 1:09pm | Report comment
The fact that Nicky Carle hasn’t even came of the bench you could say no one has to be left out. He should at the very least be used as a impact player or replacing tired legs. Its such as shame that he had zero game time for the team.
If I have to choose who to leave out I would say Brett Holman. Yes I know he has a good game and he is not as useless as I thought he was. However that was his only good game for the soccerroos followed by 10 very poor matches. He has good positioning and makes very nice dangerous runs and has good work ethics and stamina and his passing seems to be improving. However his finishing is still not up to scratch (although you could argue nick carle isn’t that great either) and his technique is dreadful. Seeing him try to dribble past players makes me laugh (oman match). Towser said do I have confidence in Carle doing those two assist. I would say yes because I’m absolutely confident that Carle is a better player than Holman.
The Third Man said | June 22nd 2008 @ 9:31pm | Report comment
Jesse,
Re: Slippery Jim,you’re words not mine,think you should investigate more,this man has got the future of Australian football
in his hands.but it’s the old pals act,dig deep,follow the trail, you shall be suprised .
GreennGold2010 said | July 21st 2008 @ 3:25pm | Report comment
Most people on here seem to be on the bandwagon about Arnie having too much input on the running of both the Socceroos and Olyroos as well as the fact we don’t invest enough time and money in our neighbours ‘Asia’.
My question is this….Does this Henk Duut guy really do anything other than stand at training and watch players do drills etc…..Or does he really do any scouting for the Euroroos? Why not have an extra person in charge scouting for valuable players in our region Asia.
I also think that the 4-5-1 system has to change because we don’t have a quality striker like Viduka who can fill the role. I say resort back to the 4-4-2 or get Reinaldo from Queensland Roar.
Bring back FREE-TO-AIR for the socceroos games!!!!!