Sluggy, I’m not a huge fan of Back myself however for a period of years he did revolutionise the art of 7 in Europe.

It worked, and its a good strategy if the other side has a good 7.

“Waugh is clearly an outstanding player but in the all time stakes Smith is up there with McCaw, Kronfield, Jones, Hill, Back, Erasmus et al.”

I can understand most of your selections but Neil Back does not rate inclusion in the group. Richard Hill did all the work, and in his absence in 2001 from halfway through the second test, Back was outplayed and the Lions lost their winning edge.

I’m just pushing the Brumbies to illustrate there are more options than the men in light blue. This blog is all about the Waratahs fans, pushing Waugh. He is on his last season as a Wallaby and is over rated…however Waugh is a hard worker with tradesmen like commitment. He can loose focus when the game is getting away which has been seen on numerous occasions with the Waratahs. Brown and Hoiles or Chisholm would do equally as good a job coming of the bench as Waugh if not better…

Next years Super 14 the Brumbies will have the dominate Australian pack… So why not get them involved now…

With the speed and fitness of modern forwrads and awareness of Smith’s game he has been largely nullified at intl level. It has been since 2003/4 since Smith has stood out.

Waugh is more effective in the game of power and contest at the ruck that opensiders must now battle.

As has been pointed out, and I agree with, Waugh is better suited to start with the hard tight work. Later on bring Smith on.
If Smith does change his game or starts being a match winner again I would still start Waugh. I would just take him off after 25mins and give Smith 55 mins. Currently I would give Waugh 50 mins and Smith 30.

mudskipper all the players you push are Brumbies. Smith, Kimlin, Chisholm.
Smith I can see the merit and it is a worthwhile discussion.

As for Kimlin and Chisholm most people would rate Vickerman, Horwill, McMeniman (both lock and 6), and Elsom well ahead of them both.
I would then rate Kimlin as the next lock. I would have Brown or Hoiles ahead as specialist no 6′s. That leaves the reserve bench who covers both lock and blindside flanker, I am undecided between Mumm and Chisholm.

“Burger does, too a degree, rely on power and energy.”

Don’t you think that MaCaw rely on power and energy? He is one of the most energetic player in the world. He gets involve in every ruckus.

MaCaw has really redefined the standard of a modern Breakaway with his style of play. Never have we seen before MaCaw anyone similar. Can you name one?

Kronfield was the best before MaCaw, and Smith is as good if not better than Kronfield, but both are nowhere near what MaCaw is capable of. MaCaw reinvented his role.

Unlike Smith, MaCaw and Burger tend to step over the tackle area from the top down, while Smith tries to get in from an angle to pinch the ball. Just watch MaCaw and Burger approach a tackle area. They put one foot over the tackle area while Smith hunch over the tackle area.

So being taller like MaCaw and Burger has its advantage. Both MaCaw and Burger is more strongly build (perhaps using their strength aggressively) and much much more aggressive and energetic at breakdowns. I suppose this is what I refer to as the new era.

“The closest player, back or forward, should be cleaning out and/or securing the ball. The days of backs being able to choose not to get involved are gone.”

You have taken me out of context. I agree with your above statement 100%, but ideally the forward pack should do the clean out so that the backs can continue with the next phase of attack. No point having the fastest winger at the bottom of the ruck when the attack is breaking out is there? How could Tuqiri be scoring tries when he is constantly doing the clean out.

The game has cnanged to a point where no longer are the tight five big slowish lugs who just follow the ball around. Nowadays these players are fit and fast and take their place in the defensive line with the others.

The game is faster and there is less space.

Now the premise that Waugh starts and Smith finishes plays to both their strengths. Smith’s effectiveness at stealing the ball 4 years ago is now being nullified by faster and fitter opposing tight forwards who ensure that the ball carrier isnt left alone and molested by Smith.

Waugh’s pilfers are also down, but his tight game and inclination to play closer to the ball rather than being a ball runner is much more suited to the early stages of a game. Gee, if it makes you Smith fans happy, lets play Waugh for the first 35 Minutes and then put Smith on for 45. Does that make you happy?

This isnt a Waugh v Smith, Brumbies v Tahs argumenmt. Its a discussion based on the best result for the wallabies. Why not throw Waugh into the early fray as a ‘expendable” then bring on Smith when the opposng tight five are a little tired. He would reek havoc and I think it would lengthen his playing career.

The closest player, back or forward, should be cleaning out and/or securing the ball. The days of backs being able to choose not to get involved are gone.

Spiro suggested Hoiles, and in some degree I agree with him, except that Hoiles may need a big dose of aggression (mongrel) to succeed in this position. Richard Brown looked pretty good at the PNC.

What is most important now in selecting our pack? Whether each individual of the pack can hunt as a pack. Palu, Elsom, and Smith goes missing or are too quiet in big games sometimes. Too often the ball carrier gets isolated due to the ineffectiveness of the hunting pack. Or the backs having to contribute to clean outs.

Smith has been average, and unsighted in the last 2 tests. Waugh in his 2 cameos has had more impact.

I would think Deans after working with Richie McCaw for years knows what makes a world class 7.

Thanks for pointing out that the pilfers were equal. Things that arent equal (based on S14 stats):

Runs: Smith 134, Waugh 74
Tackles: Smith 193, Waugh 173
Offloads: Smith 16, Waugh 7
Oz S14 player of the year: Smith 3, Waugh 0

No wonder Robbie is giving Smith a rest, he must be exhausted.

maybe it just doesnt appear he is playing as well because we don’t notice the long locks flying around everytime he gets a steal??

When was the last time Smith has had a great game at intl level? Then when was the last time against decent intl opposition?

Smith has a better offload but Waugh is a better support player.

So the main way Waugh is limited is he doesn’t have a kicking game and is not a playmaker. We don’t need those in the Wallabies as much as guy who contests the rucks both in attack and defence. Waugh is better in that role.

Waugh is a work horse but is limited. Its not that hard to bring energy to a game when everyone else has already been playing for 60 minutes. Thats why they are called “fresh legs”. That is not to take anything away from Waugh who is a torrid player and valuable asset. However, in order to win the games that count, you need something to open up the defence and Smith is more likely to do that with a defining play whether by stealing the ball, popping the pass etc.

Smith has also been successfully used as a line out jumper and playmaker in the past.

Sharpe must have very sore knees and throat to keep his place,

…..and I mean he was praying, what else were you thinking?

Skill vs. Work Load… I choose Smith; let other players build the wall…Smith offers more ball time to the Wallabies…

Having said that, in a cliffhamger, a match can be very tight at the end. Take the Ireland game for example. The games don’t open up like they used to.

Lets not turn this into a crticism forum of either player, they both have their respective strengths and weaknesses.