Comments on: Wallabies good but the real test starts at Perth

By: Benjamin

Benjamin — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 18:40:03 +0000

ChrisinParis… I agree with the majority of your argument. However Toulon is not an isolated example of foreing players far outweighing local players. You mention the final of Toulouse v Clermont as an exciting game, indeed Toulouse and Clermont supplied some excellent rugby over the past season, however if you analyse the teams/squads they were knee deep in imported players. Human, Basualdo, Perugini, Hasan, Albacete, Sowerby, Maka, Kelleher, Kunavore, Du Toit, Zirakashvili, Ledesma, Smit, Cudmore, Broomhall, Senio, James, Bai, Canale, Joubert, Nalaga. Perpignan and Stade Francaise follow a similar example. This has hindered French development massively, especially in the front and 2nd rows to the extent that the French scrum is a shadow of its former self. Paparemborde must literally be turning in his grave.

Chris, you also list the unavailable players. True also, but these players were available throughout the previous 8 years (by in large) and Laporte managed to do nothing of note with them. Indeed, Laporte just tried to make France a more diluted version of England. A lack of expert coaching is the key. Laporte soured a nation of talent and it seems that Lievremont is doing the same. France have some superb players but they have never been well coached, or expertly selected. Lievremont has insisted on development which is all well and good if he had given players consistent opportunities to bed in, something that he did not do in the SN, specifically his swapping of Faure for Barcella, Bonnaire for Picamoles etc. Lievremont’s appointment is clearly a political issue something that he confirmed by picking players from the smaller clubs, who weren’t international players, thus making a statement against the bigger Top 14 clubs. If Lievremont had selected a consistent front row, back row and half back pairing over the 6N, then France might not have been so hopeless against the Wallabies. They instead looked rudderless and didn’t seem to carry. That Lievremont said he would not change his team, and then reversed his decision to give everyone a game shows that he is far too imbued with amateur values to help France devlop.

Until France change their calender and put a quota on imports, they will start to lag even further, which would be a shame for world rugby.

By: ChrisInParis

ChrisInParis — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 12:54:37 +0000

I’ve read Spiro’s articles for many years and always appreciate his clear analysis and insight. However I must disagree with the observations he makes about French rugby. I’ve lived here for 15 years and follow the French game closely. Running genius is not going out of French rugby and the bulk of the French championship games have shown the usual flair and talent, with the Toulouse – Clermont final a great game featuring many of the top players that unfortunately weren’t in Australia.

In my opinion, the reason France performed poorly in Australia can be explained more simply:

– they have a young, new coach in only his eighth game at the top, who has changed the team massively for every single game since starting, causing massive disruption. France underperformed in the Six Nations due to all these changes and it appears Lievremont is in no rush to settle his team. I think he wants to try as many players as possible with an eye to 2011, and will eventually settle for the younger players with whom he is more familiar. In the meantime, its frustrating. No combinations have been allowed to develop. The French halves we saw in Brisbane had never played together.

– France was missing its top players from the top four championship teams: Clerc, Heymans, Skrela, Fritz, Elissalde, Jauzion, Vermeulen, Dusautoir, Rougerie, Nyanga, Mas, Poux, Thion, Servat, Szarzewski, Pelous, Poitrenaud, amongst others (and the injured Michalak will be back too). There were only five players in Australia from the 22 France put out against Wales in the final match of the Six Nations.

- The players have been playing non-stop since september and as Byron Kelleher discovered, their Top 14 is a marathon with many many more matches than the super 14. There are also the Europe Cup matches.
As Deans admitted, they were looking forward to the summer holidays.

He mentions thuggery. Thuggery used to be an aspect of the French game especially at lower levels, but has mostly disappeared in the last ten years. As replays showed, Horwill got involved stupidly in what was only a scuffle at that point, escalating it to a brawl. While the two French forwards should not have used him as a vent for their frustration over the match, the incident does not make the French players thugs. It does show they box better.

Finally, with regard to foreign players in French clubs, Toulon is not at all a typical French club. Most clubs only have two or three foreigners playing for them. Toulon has gone all out to buy top foreign players to attract spectators, more sponsors, and get back into the Top 14. Mission accomplished. It will be interesting to see how they go next year. I don’t believe the use of foreign players has affected French rugby. Not yet at any rate.

About the Wallabies, they’ll have to step up to beat SA or NZ but they beat them both last year and I expect them to win at least a game against them both again this year. Go Wallabies!

By: Benjamin Saunders

Benjamin Saunders — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 18:23:29 +0000

Australia face the same problem as Ireland. Beyond Cian Healy Ireland are lacking any young props of quality. In both countries the aim must be to immediately increase propping numbers and then to allow professional props to start up their own coaching clinics and visit schools and local clubs. Obviously that is a long term development tool but it is necessary. I imagine that the most popular sport in both countries is their indigenous footballs and this does not inspire many young men to want to be props. I am not sure of specific Australian efforts but in England the Harelquinbs Rugby League club have, over the past few years, held a ‘Prop Idol’ day where anybody of any age group could turn up to learn about propping. The most promising young players were then either kept on in a specific training group or integrated into the academy.

By: spiro zavos

spiro zavos — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 12:17:44 +0000

Australian rugby has had the chance with two scrum experts who were treated as propphets without honour in their own country: Topo Rodiquez who years ago wrote a treatise on scrumming that I described in the SMH as a document Aristotle might have written if he’d been a rugby man, and Andrew Blades who, in my opinion, is a PH.D is scrum techniques. For one reason or another Topo was never considered at the top levels as a scrumming guru, and Eddie Jones forced out Blades from the Wallaby organisation (probably as a scapegoat) when his Wallabies were under pressure.

By: Robert S

Robert S — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 10:47:13 +0000

The free to air coverage has been disappointing for some time now. Compared to State of Origin, or for that matter Channel 9s coverage of the NRL Friday night Footy, Test match coverage is lacking energy and anything resembling a spectacle. I was disappointed with the match day entertainment/ presentation for the 2nd Aus v France test. Suncorp stadium is a great venue but the choice of music played during the many stoppages seemed designed to relax rather than deliver energy to the crowd. The result being an attempt to get he mexican wave started which is a sure sign that the crowd was restless. There was also no pyrotechnics at the start of the match and the post match presentation was a complete shambles. I wonder who from the ARU is responsible for match day programming, unfortunately it looked like they had the day off on Saturday. I just hope the Bledisloe at Suncorp on the 13 Sept is an improvement.

By: ohtani's jacket

ohtani's jacket — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 08:56:28 +0000

If you’re talking scrums, then Mike Cron deserves all the credit in the world. Instead of pinching a Carl Hayman, someone ought to be pinching Cron.

By: spiro zavos

spiro zavos — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 07:39:48 +0000

All the comments about the woeful promotion of rugby on Channel 7 are correct. This business of promoting AFL during the rugby Tests seems to suggest where the channel’s priorities lie. The same applies on Fox Sport which often promotes RL during the big rugby matches.
In the past I’ve had run-ins with Channel 7, resulting in threats of defamation writs in one case by them, for trying to expose their contempt for the rugby product they have bought. They put very little – apparent – effort in promoting the highest viewing numbers for the Wallaby Tests. They have had their commentators, for instance, sitting in Australia and making their commentary on a Test played overseas. The build-up to the Tests compare very poorly with the excellent promotion of, say, the State of Origin matches by Channel 9.

By: Scrum Importance

Scrum Importance — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 07:01:00 +0000

Its hard to please the Rugby Public. You beat the French by 40 odd, you win a couple of tight heads, play reasonably well in tight, don’t lose any of your own line outs and still its not good enough. Dunning hasn’t even played the last two games and hes getting critisised.

Baxter, Alexander and Robinson all played well on Sat, yeah not every scrum was technically the best, nor was the French scrum and amazingly nor was the South African or the NZ scrum, in the same way that not every pass, kick and decision from the fleet footed back 7 was perfect.

They are the best of the bunch at the moment and deserve to be recognised as such. I’d prefer the odd scrum penalty than the frquent try being scored because the props are the best in the world at scrumagging and miss every other tackle – Baxter and Dunning regulalry make 15-20 tackles a game in tight.

By: Justin

Justin — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 06:54:28 +0000

I think if they are both fit McMenimem is the man, he seems are bit tougher and more aggressive than Mumm who thrived no question in S14, but defence is tighter in Test footy and real impact is necessary. Mc has the makings of a superb 6 for years to come IMO.

By: David

David — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 06:39:28 +0000

I know what Michael C means about free to air broadcast times. Here in Perth we’re only getting one game live on Channel 7 for the whole Tri-Nations (the afternoon Bledisloe from NZ).
All other tests are 11.45pm or later. It’s a disgrace.
Last Saturday (for the 2nd French test), the movie finished at 10.45…and was followed by an hour of Celebrity Cosmetic Surgery. Rugby at 11.45.
The only response I ever get when I call/email Channel 7 is that it’s all about ratings. I’d be surprised if rugby doesn’t rate better among the thousands of diehard Wallabies supporters in Perth than Celebrity Cosmetic Surgery at that time of night.
The ARU/Bundaberg etc are getting seriously bad value for money in their deal with Ch 7, particularly in markets like Perth where they really should be promoting the game.
There’s a strong rugby culture in Perth, as seen by the good crowds at Force home games, but you’d wonder if the ARU knows we’re here at all.

By: Harry

Harry — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 06:33:14 +0000

What Andy says. Although hopefully Holmes can return from his latest injury. And maybe Blake will improve after 2 years in France.

I am a fan of McMenimem but the guy has proven himself too injury prone over the last 3 years, I also thnik he is a natural 6, not a second row. Stick him on the bench for the time being, Mumm went OK

By: Central North

Central North — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 06:10:16 +0000

Andy – are the ARU “chasing” Inglis and Folau now? I remember some Bret Harris style speculation in the Aus maybe 18 months back – but certainly nothing since and absolutely nothing that is taking the attention away from developing young props.

At the moment I see no silver bullet in the front row – but claiming it’s due to the ARU chasing Leaguies is pretty silly.

By: Andy

Andy — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 05:50:54 +0000

My frustration with our front row is we’ve seem to be back where we started in 2006. Then we had Holmes and Blake who every one said where young and needed to be given time and after 2 years of test match rugby they’d be world class. Now they’re no where to be seen and where hanging our hopes on Alexander and Robinson who are again very young for props. Are we going to be having this conversation again in two years. I bloody hope not. I can just see the ARU repeating mistakes and chasing league stars like Inglis and Foloau and ingore the opportunity to develop young props. Instead of spending cash on League stars we should spend cash on poaching Mick Cron or some Pommy scrumming guru and set up a Scrumming school that all promising Schoolboy, promising club players, Underage Rep players and state players have to attend in the off season.

By: Michael C

Michael C — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 05:43:18 +0000

Midfielder -

on channel 7 in Melbourne, I think on Thursday night, we had a couple of shows that were ‘brought to you by Channel 7s Rugby Union coveage’, or something to that end,

….only thing being that we’re not getting a Rugby Union coverage in Melb, thus far, …., or, if we are, it’s after midnight, any way, I’m not in the business of sitting up to watch it at that sort of hour. Hardly the sort of thing that warrants big promotion into the Melbourne market, I think it was for My Name is Earl and the Amazing Race or something like that – - all this great network cross promotion……except that they were buring what they were cross promoting….talk about mixed messages.

it all seems just a bit all over the place really. Perhaps a bit of contractual obligation – - perhaps a bit of broadcaster disappointment with ROI. Perhaps the brand of the ARU has suffered so much via the ARC collapse, and much of the unsavoury home truths about finances made public by John O’Neil since his return – - that the RU has lost a bit of broadcaster ‘gloss’???

By: Homer

Homer — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 05:40:59 +0000

Bill, Alexander and Kepu packed in together for Australia A against Tonga and smashed them. Kepu on the loose side I think. I agree that we are always looking for a better alternative but I also think that it is born out of frustration with the current crop. Baxter and Dunnning just don’t seem to learn from their mistakes. Baxter still drops his shoulder and folds while Dunning is constantly outsmarted into prematurely engaging or holding back, thereby giving the advantage to the opposition. The problem is that Robinson etc are still very young and missed out on the chance to learn more of the dark art through club rugby. English props are bred through very, very tough examinations week after week in a solid professional environment. Unfortunately for us the drive towards running rugby left us looking more for fleet footed athletes than hard nosed moles used to doing the hard work week in and week out.
Everytime I look at the aussie front row I am embaressed, not one cauliflower ear and barely a lump, scar or square jaw to be seen. In opposition the english front row are really, really, ugly gnarled headed dudes with ears that scare kids on the street. That comes fromhard work at the coal face, not against a scrum machine.
Alexander did 1 or two years in the UK with Bristol or Richmond I think and benefitted from it, now he is already one fo our best prospects.

By: jimbo

jimbo — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 05:37:24 +0000

Midfielder,
the AFL people were complaining about the coverage they get from 7 in another Roar article. They wouldn’t have been too happy about the state of ANZ stadium for the Swans game either.

I think the best sports people at 7 have jumped ship or are on overseas junkets in preparation for the Olympics.

By: Midfielder

Midfielder — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 05:28:19 +0000

Spiro …….what the hell goes on in the world of professional rugby……grateful to be watching free to air rugby…..on seven in Sydney ……but before and during entire game get regular AFL ads promoting AFL and the Sydney v Collingwood game in Sydney that everyone in Sydney knows is being broadcast on Ten at the same time. Does the AFL sponsor the rugby or as is more likely they were free promos run by seven for the sport they really care about even at the cost of a few viewers and rugby sponsors. Let you know a little secret the sponsors were unimpressed not only with seven but the quality of its coverage. No agenda here just accurate observation…..why bother with a broadcaster who does not care about the sport it is covering?……Remember what 7 did with football…..Its coverage of the rugby is apalling.

By: Bill

Bill — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 05:21:48 +0000

Does anyone else not buy the ‘work in progress” tag? John Connolly was saying the same things in 2006 when he took over. So what progress have we made over the past 2 years? And what team in any sport isn’t a “work in progress”. If you consider perfection is impossible but that every team strives to progress towards perfection then every team is a”work in progress”. Homer mentioned Alexander, Kepu as being in the same front row. Unfortunately I think there both looseheads and Kepu couldn’t make the NSW team so how good can he be. I think all Wallaby supporters are just Baxtered and Dunninged out as they’ve humiliated themselves and there country to many times, that we rate the alternatives to highly because we wish them to be better then Baxter and Dunning. Foley, Deans, Williams et al are not stupid. The reason that Baxter and Dunning get picked is that as sad as it is they’re the best we’ve got. Just as England struggle to produce creative inside backs, we struggle to produce powerful, driving tight forwards. Sad but true

By: Homer

Homer — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 04:12:48 +0000

As good as Mumm has been McMeniman is a class act. he played very well for the Wallabies and then for the A side. As well he has the agression needed to combat the SA and AB teams. He is also a great number 6. Vickerman and McMeniman in the second row for me although Horwill has done nothing wrong, in fact by scoring two tries off Giteau’s shoulder he has shown he has learned how to p[lay with his teammates and where the ball should be.
When Alexander comes on his side of the scrum invariably seems to be more stable, I also liked his comments about not wanting the scrum to be on par with other teams but to tsart dominating, about bloody time someone took that attitude. Throw in Kepu as well with Polata-Nau and we will have a big strong front row that is mobile as well. It is a shame that Polata-Nau broke his hand as it means he probably won’t get a test until November now.
I can’t see Baxter, Robinson and Moore holding up under the cbashing they Boks will give them around the rucks either. I reckon De Villiers will target them inattack for a whiel and drain the energy of the pack early, he has more than enough runners to do the job.

By: Mark H

Mark H — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 04:10:49 +0000

Some good comments Ive just read. I guess for my 20c, the tight 5 need to become a tight 8. All they have to do in attack is follow the ball carrier and give options inside and out. Pop passing, driving on a tackled player will give momentum. Im pretty happy with the progress. I feel a bit sorry for Sharpy, hes done. These young fellas need a crack. Deans is right, its a work in progress.

By: Sluggy

Sluggy — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 04:09:05 +0000

“Maybe some us don’t know what we’re seein’, eh? ”

Depends if we’re watching the world’s slowest inside centre take the ball up, or a lock who doesn’t push in the scrums.

By: LL

LL — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 02:04:41 +0000

Tahu offers power at inside centre, a key weapon that Henry jumped on early with Nonu’s selection, especially with defences having to go back five meters from the scrum. Barnes making play outside Giteau is abviously still an Aaron Mauger-like selection from Dean’s Sader past. Depending on how the play is going though both options allow for clever use of the subsitutions which today’s tests really demand. Would have like to have seen selectors take bet on Digby just like the ABs selectors chose Wulf but ah well, there at least is genuine pace with Hynes. This comp suddenly doesnt seem as clearcut as anyone thought it might be….

By: joeb

joeb — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 01:52:18 +0000

Lidd, “Hey Toeb you must have watched a different Notso Sharpe than me over the last couple of years. No pack that Sharpe has been a member of has struck even at scrum time, not Reds, not Force and definitely not Wallabies. We definitely did not miss Notso in any facet of Saturday’s game.”

Come Boks and ABs time yuo’ll be needing Notso ’cause I’m here to tell you Mumm isn’t up to it; not in the TN league. Maybe some us don’t know what we’re seein’, eh?

Gimme a break — Mumm and Horwill versus Thorn and Ali, and whoever the Boks install in their second row. What we need is good depth so the players can be rotated and the side remain competitive throughtout the test season.

By: Justin

Justin — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 01:48:03 +0000

Cheers Art, that doesnt sound great. I guess the difference was that Mauger guided Carter about the park in his early days and had more in his attack than Berrick does at present. Berrick is a leg tackler so to agree this negates some of the power of Nonu as if you go high its bye-bye. He wont he is a copybook tackler in the mould of the former league player Jason? Heatherington from QLD.

Dont forget the Gits will be taking Nonu much of the time as we wont be playing man on man defence unless inside the 22. Will certainly require the defence to move up quickly and take the space, with backrow support being crucial also. Nonu will make a break at some stage you would think so it is how we clean it up that may be more important, he is just so powerful.

By: Art Vandalay

Art Vandalay — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 01:39:05 +0000

Justin to answer your question Tahu couldn’t kick a habit. If Deans wants a second tactical kicker he won’t make the team. Timmy Horan was an average to poor kicker and he was, in my option, the greatest 12 in rugby history. Tahu offers a genuine line breaking threat, great feet, strength and freakish offloading ability. I’d love to see him get a go but the History of Robbie Deans coached teams suggest he likes two play makers/tacticians which means Barnes will get the job. You can’t really argue against Robbie given his record. People keep praising Berrick’s defence. Is any one else anxious about a mismatch for power in Barnes V Nonu? In Rob I trust

By: Andy

Andy — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 01:33:09 +0000

1. Robinson – Ithinks he’s done quite well
2. Moore/PN – Can’t split them, both good at different things
3. Dunning – Who else is there? Someone go to Argentina with a cheque book and find a new Topo
4. Horwill
5. Vickerman
6. Elsom
7. Waugh – brings intensity and mongrel
8. Palu – time to translate Super 14 form, replace with Smith ar 50-60minute mark

9. Burgess
10. Giteau
11. Tuquir – despite the knockers I rate Lote, breaks tackles gets ad line
12. Barnes – Tahu’s breathing down your neck buddy
13. Mortlock
14. Hynes – lets see how good he really is
15. AAC – can break a tackle needs to work on the basics/consistency

16 Alexander
17. Moore/PN
18. McMeniman – Mumms done well but this guys class
19. Smith
20. Cordingley – Lucas next year
21. Tahu – offers more X Factor then Cross
22. Mitchell – Genuine Try scorer

By: Justin

Justin — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 01:23:23 +0000

We rarely see it but when there is shot of the scrum from above it tells much of the story IMO. Our pack is not tight (and that is all of them). There are large gaps between players from front to back and it splinters our scrum when the opposition decide to have a go. I noticed on Saturday night too that the second rower on the left hand side (not sure who it was) had his a$$ that much higher than his hips it was not funny. No wonder they got smashed a couple of times, very poor technique. Power body position must have your main levers (your legs) below shoulders and driving slightly up just like a strong tackle position. Once the back is in a convex position its all over.

Gits improved his running lines also which helped and it made it easier for Burgess to find the target more consistently although it will improve more. Great to see Tahu in the 3N squad, he has the talent to become an excellent choice for AUS. Power, speed, feet and improved distribution could see him starting shortly. I love Barnes for his defence but we rely so heavily on Gits to create something most times. Tahu will keep defence guessing and threaten the line more than Barnes. Not sure of Tahu’s kicking capability though, anyone know?

By: Terry Kidd

Terry Kidd — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 01:18:12 +0000

Hey Toeb you must have watched a different Notso Sharpe than me over the last couple of years. No pack that Sharpe has been a member of has struck even at scrum time, not Reds, not Force and definitely not Wallabies. We definitely did not miss Notso in any facet of Saturday’s game.

By: Roger

Roger — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 01:05:05 +0000

Wallabies team just got announced. No big news. Tahu and McMeniman in, Hoiles out of squad and Ione and Chisolm miss out.
http://www.rugby.com.au/news/wallabies_2008/tri-nations_squad_announced,95528.html/section/21893

I would have liked to see Lucas in squad as cover for 9 and 10 if desperate. Sheehan is the best rugby league hooker to play union, but he isnt a wallabies halfback…plays like a SA or ENG 9 maybe. Aus A looked better without him yesterday.

Kimlin has to be close, as are SNK and Kepu, who is improving from his loose No 8 ways dramatically!

By: Peter K

Peter K — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 00:51:20 +0000

A good scrum is an eight man scrum.

The Waratahs are tighter and scrum as an 8 man unit.

Lets look at the non Waratah Wallaby forwards.
Moore – Not as good a scrumager as Polotua-Nau.
Sharpe – Far worse scrumager than Vickerman
Hoiles – Not as good a scrumager as Palu. The 8 man makes a big difference when they shift from between the locks to pushing between the flanker and lock via the tight head.

I would expect the Wallaby pack to be worse than the Waratahs at scrumaging.

Roger well noted.
The backline was far far more fluent because there were less forwards slowing it down. In particular Sharpe.

Mind you once Barnes, who adds little to the attack outside kicking, was off it improved with Mortlock / Cross combo.

From the changes in personnel for this test.
Mumm starting was an improvement with Sharpe off. McMeniman went better though, I would start Horwill and McMeniman until Vickerman is back. Mind you that is if Horwill or McMeniman can call the lineouts.
Waugh had more impact than Smith did when he started. Smith was unseen even coming in fresh as opposed to Waugh in his cameos.
Hoiles did not impress or make much impact. Palu to get his spot back.
Turner did not do much, Tuqiri to get his spot back, since Mitchell did little for Aust ‘A’.
AC was better than Shepherd at F/B so should of kept the spot, moot point now anyway.

From Aust ‘A’ I thought Kepu,Kimlin, McMeniman, Lucas, Tahu, and Norton-Knight stood out.

Assuming Holmes , PN, Vickerman are still out my TN test team would be
01 Robinson (can’t wait till Holmes gets back) or maybe Kepu
02 Moore
03 Dunning
04 McMeniman
05 Horwill
06 Elsom
07 Waugh
08 Palu
09 Burgess
10 Giteau
11 Tuqiri
12 Barnes (last chance, otherwise Tahu)
13 Mortlock
14 Hynes
15 AC

16 Freier (cant wait until PN is back)
17 Baxter
18 Kimlin
19 Smith
20 Lucas (if we need a scrumhalf), if not then SNK who covers 10,12,15
21 Tahu
22 Mitchell / Cross / Turner / SNK