Why Bakkies Botha wasn’t cited for striking Mortlock
During the coverage of the Wallabies - Springboks Test at Perth, there was a camera shot that appeared to show Bakkies Botha, the South African bully boy secondrower, belting Stirling Mortlock so badly that he was forced to leave the field with concussion.
The television picture looked like the sort of ‘gotcha’ moment that saw the Springboks hooker Bismarck du Plessis caught on camera gouging the eyes of Adam Thomson, an action that resulted in him being outed from playing rugby for three weeks by the SANZAR Citing Commissioner.
Why wasn’t Botha cited and punished by the Citing Commissioner?
On Monday I received an email from BL which was as direct as a punch to the jaw: “Spiro, what is the drum on a Botha citing? Please advise. BL”
I replied: “Hi BL, nothing as far as I know. A disgrace, but someone has to make a citing, or the Commissioner has to intervene. Botha has been doing this for years, with impunity.”
BL wasn’t happy with this answer: “Spiro, as a respected rugby guru you have the power to raise a player’s behaviour for citing. Please do it, or show footage to Mortlock. Has no one got the balls to raise what we all saw on slow motion replay. Please give it a shot, the future of rugby demands these thugs be sanctioned.”
I told BL he should contact the ARU to find out what the official response was. BL did this, making contact with Peter Rowles, the head of Rugby Services.
Rowles made a prompt answer: “BL, thanks for the email and in respect to the issue you refer, I offer the following. 1. The Citing Commissioner of the night from NZ reviewed the incident and 6 camera angles in slow motion frame by frame which picked up the incident. He reviewed this on many occasions post the match, as all Citing members do. 2. The incident shows Botha attempting to clean out Stirling but he misses Stirling and connects with the rib area of Shalk Burger who subsequently had to leave the field. His shoulders do not make contact with Stirling and he seems to clip the head of Stirling with his knee in a non-intentional action on the way through. 3. The Citing Commissioner had to determine if the actions constituted a red card (called the red card threshold). He determined the actions did not warrant a send off, hence the player was not cited. The Citing Commissioner is one of SANZARS’ most experienced and made the call. I understand that on first glance it didn’t look great, but he has the beauty of all the angles upon which to make his assessment.”
BL replied to this in the following way: “Peter, many thanks for the rapid response. M-G Peter Cosgrove would be impressed. Intent? While he may have missed the intended body part, the ‘mens rea’ (guilty mind, intention) was certainly present.”
This is a good point, but I accept that the Citing Commissioner had to go with what actually happened, not what Botha wanted to happen.
The fact remains, though, that referees have been too tolerant to Botha over the years with his smash-and-grab illegal tactics at the ruck and maul.
It won’t be long before one of these illegal shoulder charges will find its mark and then, hopefully, we can look to the appropriate Citing Commissioner to do the right thing by putting him out of rugby for a considerable period of time.
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We were talking about the important things in life, mainly sport.
Greg said | July 24th 2008 @ 7:25am | Report comment
Spiro, BL
The Australian Rugby League tolerated thugs like Spud Carrol, Roach, Noel Cleal etc deliberately hurting opposition players. The Richard Loe attack on Carrozza was perhaps the most disgraceful incident coming out of NZ for many years, and most certianly on a par with the Chappel brothers underarm.
NZ and Australian rugby union have cleaned up their acts; when was the last time anyone from Australia had a hot blooded thing to say about NZ violence in a test match?
South Africa are the 1980’s rugby league of the union world. I might add France to that. Bakkies Botha knows that he’s a hated person. He’s surrendered to it just like Richard Loe and eye-pokers of the past.
For reasons that I cannot comprehend (perhaps along the lines of national psychology) NZ dont’ have the same problems with SA as Australia does, at least on the rugby field. My best answer to the quandry lies in assumptions about intelligence; the only way to get at a player more intelligent than yourself is to lower the contest into something more barbaric.
Clearly South Africa are changing for the better. Something has happened to their rugby team to make them more likeable. Botha is a dinasaur and the last of his kind. Many will romanticise the fossil, but grimace at the memory of the beast; apparently human.
Greg.
Frank O'Keeffe said | July 24th 2008 @ 8:04am | Report comment
Proof that negligence should be considered a mens rea by the courts!
Craig said | July 24th 2008 @ 8:27am | Report comment
Here we go.
I knew the Aussie media couldn’t resist having a go at that ‘thug’ Botha.
No matter what he does you guys can’t stand him. If he sneezed on a player and gave them a cold I think you would push for a citing.
Botha was cleaning out a ruck. Mortlock was falling. It must have taken an incredibly quick cognative equation on Botha’s behalf to calculate at what rate and angle he should run in to make contact with Mortlocks head.
But of course you don’t think about that. All you see is a player leaving the field with a knock to the head and Botha in the replay hitting him. So he must be guilty! No need to look at the replays! He must go!!
Why not rather focus on the game this weekend and the upcoming games rather than harp on about things that are not to be? Botha will not get cited, nor does he deserve to.
JohnB said | July 24th 2008 @ 9:12am | Report comment
Without commenting on this particular incident, it is worth noting that the laws say this (in Law 12 on Foul Play) -
“Players must not charge into a ruck or maul without binding onto a player in the ruck or maul.
Penalty: Penalty Kick”
What exactly that means is not obvious to me from the words used. I assume, analogous to what is and is not permitted at the tackle, that you can’t “shoulder charge” - essentially the arm/s have to be up away from the body so the required binding can occur straight away. That would mean that you can’t go into a ruck or maul, whether to join in or to clean out, with the point of the shoulder. Given the potential for injury from such actions, as from the banned shoulder charge in the tackle, that seems a pretty logical conclusion to me. If that iinterpretation is correct, the law should be enforced on that basis, against all teams.
TembaVJ said | July 24th 2008 @ 9:17am | Report comment
Thank god he started to clean out the rucks, the Wallabies were getting away with murder round those areas. That is his job and his good at it, just like McCaw’s good at what he does. If you ask me our forward weren’t cleaning out enough and when you get a bunch of big blokes rushing for an area the size of a rugby ball, someone is bound to get hurt, its not a tickling competition.
Wow Greg that is a really spectacular answer, let me see if I have it right dumb saffa’s trying to bring the clever Aussies down to their barbaric level…
Mike said | July 24th 2008 @ 9:26am | Report comment
Criag - or are you Peter De Villliers in disguise - stop making excuses. The guy is a thug and always has been.
Probalby wasn’t cited purely to give the rugby “authorities” some peace from de Villiers whinging about why SA is picked on by everyone … referees, ballboys, commissioners, the hot dog vendors, Kevin Rudd, the Pope, who’s else?.
stuff happens said | July 24th 2008 @ 9:31am | Report comment
And, let me tell you everyone in Aust, including me, wishes we had a Bakkies Botha in our team !!
Great packs have an enforcer full stop and good night.
TembaVJ said | July 24th 2008 @ 9:59am | Report comment
Bakkies is a thug… one of the best in the world, a classic hard man, every team in the world has/have or will one day will have again.
Mike you forgot O’Neil and George Bush, funny you should complain about SA’s whinging on this post that is clearly a whinging session aimed at the saffas.. ironic isn’t it? I think you will find all 3 these teams are guilty of the occasional bitch. But take the higher ground, I am sure there is plenty of whinging to come from Australia, they only had one game that they have won so far… IF they lose we shall see if your stance can be maintained.
Mike said | July 24th 2008 @ 10:05am | Report comment
Temba you’re right … no one is innocent. You get away with what you can.
Peter K said | July 24th 2008 @ 10:08am | Report comment
stuff happens / tembaVJ - Yes Botha is a thug. I would hate to see a player like that play for the Wallabies.
Yes I want hard men with mongrel. I do not want a thug who takes cheap shots against defenseless players.
What is brave or admiring of a guy who constantly charges into rucks shoulder first? And this is the least of his acts of thuggery. Eye gouging , biting yes a real hard man, you can keep him.
I prefer the man who runs the ball up with 3 guys waiting to smash him, getting up and doing it again. Or tackles headon a formed maul by himself , sure maybe collapsing it and being trod on, but not a cheap shot.
Finegan was our last hardman, with mongrel, but he was a cheap shot merchant or thug.
Peter K said | July 24th 2008 @ 10:08am | Report comment
correction
Finegan was our last hardman, with mongrel, but he was NOT a cheap shot merchant or thug.
Adam said | July 24th 2008 @ 10:10am | Report comment
Craig,
Have a look at this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJBKpcM9l7M&eurl=http://www.findinternettv.com/Video,item,2193810142.aspx
This clearly shows Botha was not bound to anyone and simply charged in shoulder first. The resultant shoulder into Mortlock’s head has put the Australian captain out of one of the biggest games of the year for Australian and New Zealand rugby supporters.
Why do you think the Australian media (and rugby supporting public) ‘can’t resist’ having a go at Botha. Forget about histroy and look at this incident on its own
Peter K said | July 24th 2008 @ 10:10am | Report comment
Mike - What crap.
So its ok to eye gouge, or bite, or say kick people heads in a ruck as long as you get away with it!
LeftArmSpinner said | July 24th 2008 @ 10:21am | Report comment
I will just sit back and watch the lawyers go toe to toe on this one. Don’cha just love rugby and its supporters!!!! someone will probably correct me on where I placed the apostrophe in “doncha”. from my days in boots, the forwards were mainly lawyers tho there were quite a few dentists in the front row. the MD’s and sales and marketing people were in the backs!!!!
TembaVJ said | July 24th 2008 @ 10:34am | Report comment
Defenseless player… OK Peter, why is number 13 in the ruck, should the other teams forwards take it easy on him because his a backline player?
He was in the wrong place and got punished for it, had he cleared the ball it would of been a spectacular move that probably could of lead to a tri or a great save. Mortlock showed commitment and a fearless attitude going into that ruck with Burger and Botha waiting for him BUT this does not mean they should take it easy on him.
Peter K said | July 24th 2008 @ 10:45am | Report comment
Of course you do not take it easy.
Maybe in SA it is legal to shoulder charge players, since Botha and James do it all the time.
Botha constantly shoulder charges defenceless players in the ruck or a maul. That is gutless. Try clearing out using the arms.
mudskipper said | July 24th 2008 @ 10:55am | Report comment
Mortlock will sort it out himself when he next meets Bakkies Botha on the field… It’s best the Wallabies got on with focussing on the job at hand, the all Blacks match and not look back at what should, could or didn’t happen…This weeks game is for their season and they are travelling very well and their mindset is strong.
Mortlock has had a few past head injuries, one recently during this Super 14 this year and very bad one late Super 14 last year, its best he sits this one out, its the responsible call from the Wallabies medical team…
TembaVJ said | July 24th 2008 @ 11:00am | Report comment
OK I wont call him gutless but I see your point.
Everyone loves to hate Botha, he knows and thrives on it.
26 times the Aussie turned ball over from the Boks, not even the All Blacks with McCaw can do that, perhaps its a bit of frustration and “taking the law into your own hands” sort of thing. The ref did not do the best of jobs at policing the breakdowns.
I think you will find if you know him, that he is a great man off the field. Very religious, lots of charity work and a big heart but come game day he turns into a bulldozing madman. If I had no idea of his personal life I would agree with you but what you know of his character stretches for the 80 mins between kick offs.
He is a professional sportsman, you wont hear of him getting pissed and bashing taxi’s, gangbanging in hotel room, playing touch with Kwaka’s or smashing team mates jaws in… He saves his aggression for the rugby field, that is his job a hard man.
Wrong? yes at times… gutless? never….
Mike said | July 24th 2008 @ 11:30am | Report comment
Peter take it easy. i’m not saying it’ alright - what i’m saying is player will get away with what they can - if they so choose to gouge or kick - and there have been a few inclined toward these acts over the years - there were some players who will do it. Obviously with cameras everywhere & bamfords who want to get on TV these days not that many players are stupid enough to try the really dirty stuff.
Doesn’t stop some players from the occassional should charge or taking a player in the air or having a wee push at the ball when they are off their feet. If the Ref lets them do it they will - hell Wayne Barnes & J Kaplan are happy for to let passes be a couple of yards forward these days.
Botha thing doesn’t look that flash on youtube - must be something on other views that makes it not look as bad cos’ you’d have to say from that angle there wasn’t lot of arms.
mart said | July 24th 2008 @ 11:31am | Report comment
Dirtiest cheapest player in world rugby. Simple fact.
mudskipper said | July 24th 2008 @ 11:51am | Report comment
Good to hear Bakkies Botha is religious man. He will need to utter all his prayers before next taking the field against the Wallabies… As a God fearing man he will understand he is made from flesh and bone…
Did he get out of his Super 14 Bulls contract?
True Tah said | July 24th 2008 @ 11:58am | Report comment
TembaVJ,
I don’t personally care that Bakkies is a Christian bloke. Jason Stevens who used to play for the Cronulla Sharks was a Christian as well, and that didn’t stop him from stomping on that pommie blokes head now did it?
The only higher power he will be answering to in the future will be in the form of Cliff Palu.
Craig said | July 24th 2008 @ 12:15pm | Report comment
Pointless really.
As a South African supporter I of course am going to back Bakkies, and all Wallabies supporters will feel for poor old head like glass Mortlock.
At the end of it, Bakkies did nothing wrong, and the citing commitee agrees with me. He cleaned out. That he hit Mortlock in the head is unfortunate, but that is rugby. You learn from a very young age to protect yourself in the ruck. If you fall on the wrong side, watch out!! they have of course taken rucking away, which is a great shame.
Mortlock should have been expecting a hit in a ruck. That is what a ruck is - a point of contact.
If you don’t like it, don’t watch rugby. It’s a rough place out there.
TembaVJ said | July 24th 2008 @ 12:20pm | Report comment
Now that’s better, a match up instead of a bitching session about the big bad man. I don’t think Cliffy scares him much but then again don’t think many things do.
As I am not religious I couldn’t care less either but was merely trying to show that there is more to the man then a big bad monster, its hard to break through this line when the hatred runs so deeply. Never mind, I think he is world class and I doubt I am alone.
stuff happens said | July 24th 2008 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
I’ll say it again.I wish Aust or Wales( my other team )had a Bakkies Botha.I assure you he is a great asset to the ‘Boks.
As for retribution the next time he plays against the Wallabies, which will be on 23 Aug in Durban, - yeah right.
Oooh, I bet he’s worried.
Ben C said | July 24th 2008 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
TembaVJ
I am not sure what a Kwaka is or how you play touch with it. It sounds a bit disturbing. Unless of course you are referring to quokkas, in which case you clearly misinformed. The players shotputted the quokkas, they didn’t play touch with them.
As for Bakkies, he skirts the edges sometimes. Many “hard” players do (Waugh and Elsom on McCaw in 2006?). He is one of the best at getting under the opposition’s skin and usually it is niggle rather than deliberate intent to injure.
He didn’t bind into the ruck but charged in? Yes. Was he intending to injure Mortlock? It looked like it at the time but probably not from what the citing commissioner determined. Was it worth a card at the time? No. Maybe a (technical) penalty. If it wasn’t worth a card there is no reason he should have been cited.
Murry said | July 24th 2008 @ 1:30pm | Report comment
If an Auatralian lock did the same thing to a SA player last weekend, none of us would be bludging at work and writing on this site. It is only because Australia was on the wrong side of the hard man that people winge. Remember Steve Finnane. I’ve heard that his destruction of the Ponty Pool front row was not done in a knid, courtesy way. I never heard a great deal of Aussies saying he was a thug.
Jerry said | July 24th 2008 @ 1:32pm | Report comment
“At the end of it, Bakkies did nothing wrong, and the citing commitee agrees with me.”
Your Springbok captain and SARFU CEO don’t seem to accept that a citing commitee’s decision proves whether anything dodgy has or hasn’t occurred. At the very least the decision this time seems to indicate Smit was wrong - Botha can take out the opposition captain and get off.
TembaVJ said | July 24th 2008 @ 1:33pm | Report comment
Ben C, I apologize for my lack of knowledge on Australian wild life… perhaps I have not spent enough time watching David Attenborough.
True Tah said | July 24th 2008 @ 1:36pm | Report comment
Stuff happens,
in Oz, we have enough problems with mothers not letting their sons play rugby because they are worried their little softies are going to get hurt by big Islander lads, and opt for softer options. I have a lot of issues with this viewpoint I(mainly that this kids and their respective mothers need to harden the f*** up), but we need to market rugby in a better light.
Having a neanderthral like Botha running around in a Wallaby jersey wouldn’t do much for the public perception image of rugby in Australia one bit. Its all good being tough, but Botha has form for biting, punching and general thuggery. I know South African eat a hell of a lot of meat (my partner is one), but that bite on Cannon was a bit over the top.
I do like the fact he is named after a vehicle though, imagine if we called one of our players something similar. Utility Sharpe (he has been known to hang around the backs a fair bit, and has played like one at times). Rodzilla is a marketable name, but the bloke isn’t even near the Wallaby jersey this year.
JohnB said | July 24th 2008 @ 1:41pm | Report comment
Murry, to be fair, it wouldn’t matter who did what last weekend we’d still be bludging at work today in one form or another.
Dave said | July 24th 2008 @ 1:46pm | Report comment
Whoever thinks Botha is not a thug should cast their minds back to the infamous topless photo of Brendan Cannon (post saffies game) with bite marks all over his shoulders and back.
The man’s a thug but, as far as the spectator in me goes, I love to watch him push the wallabies. There is a direct correlation between the enjoyment of a tough rugby game and knowing the opposition is tough as nails and dirty as mud.
True Tah said | July 24th 2008 @ 1:47pm | Report comment
Murry,
Finane played all of three test matches for Australia, whereas Botha has been a constant feature of Springbok rugby for last few years.
I guess the Wallabies didn’t really want a thug in their side, which could explain his lack of caps. He had a purpose (to nullify the Welsh scrum) and did it well (by breaking their props jaw).
Peter K said | July 24th 2008 @ 1:49pm | Report comment
True Tah - That is the point I am making. This is not an isolated incident by that player. Nor is it restricted to the odd punch or shoulder charge. Botha has been cited for eye gouging , biting and headbutting. He is a thug, a type of player I would not want in my team. I feel sorry for Boks who feel they have to support a thug regardless of what he does.
I have no issue with hardmen going a little bit too far sometimes, and this is a tame incident, and if it was another player would not be worth the comment. However it is a serial repeat thug at work.
TembaVJ said | July 24th 2008 @ 2:00pm | Report comment
If I had a dollar for each time an Australian refers to a South African as a Neanderthal id be on a beach in Bali instead of playing place the blame on someone with you lot.
True Tah, I think Bakkies is even less worried about what Australian mum’s thinks then weather or not he is a target by the worlds fastest obese man and a couple of midgets in the next Walla vs. Bok game. Rugby men should be tought by their fathers and stitched up by mums. Over and over you guys think that your problems with football codes should be carried by the rest of the world.
You think the last game was hard…. mate did you watch any of the All Black games? You should thanks your lucky stars that the All Blacks soften the boks up before the Wallabies face them. Playing in South Africa is not going to be a place for the faith hearted perhaps you could get O’Neil to fly out a bunch of mums to help out?
You are right on one point harden the **** up, Australia is one of the world greatest sporting nations, I am sure little gazza will find some other sport to do while his mum wipes his nose for him.
True Tah said | July 24th 2008 @ 2:18pm | Report comment
TembaVJ,
I did watch both of the games in NZ between Boks and Blacks, and yes they were a lot more intense than the Wallaby game. If the All Blacks hadn’t softened the Wallabies up, then I would have put money on the Boks to win in Perth.
What I find perplexing is that the Boks don’t need a thug like Bakkies in the myrtle green, they have some amazing players, why do they need to resort to eye gouging, biting and the like? The Boks played to their talents in NZ, and it showed that they are a class side who can win in hostile environments.
I will be watching the games in South Africa. I think the spoils will be shared between the Wallabies and the Boks there one game a piece, unless the Pumas soften you blokes up for us, then it will be two games to the Wallabies.
The point re: Australian mums is that that our society in Australia seems to be getting softer and softer. FFS when I was growing up, I played these giants as well and I had to tackle and get tackled by them as well, if anything it helped me work on my tackling a hell of a lot quicker.
If the toughest thing in life is having to tackle a 110kg Islander when you 13 or 14, then you’ve had a charmed life.
TembaVJ said | July 24th 2008 @ 2:45pm | Report comment
Comparing Australian Rugby culture to South African rugby culture (if that is what you are doing) is like comparing Ferrari’s to Land-rovers. We should be thankful they play different styles or the sport would be as boring to spectate as a game of darts. The “intimidating hard man” is as much a part of South African rugby culture as kicking the ball is. Botha is not the first and he will not be the last, get over it. He is world class but not perfect, the biting and eye gouging comes from a long time ago under Rudolph Straeul renowned for tactics of unsettling the other team.
Cleaning out the ruck is something every team has a player or two for… normally Neanderthal look-alikes. I love how some people claim to be angel like saviors of the game yet next weeks role reversal bring about a the love for grinding, rucking all out bloody warfare as a noble effort to win a game.
I do agree Butch and Bakkies are from a generation of overkill hardmen but Rome was not built in a day and change will not come over night… perhaps in 12-15 years we will eventually see a bunch of superior fit pansies take the field but will you be longing for the days of the hardman, will you miss hating Bakkies Botha?
bradley said | July 24th 2008 @ 3:24pm | Report comment
Have you noticed how after every game and every citing the Springboks management and players complain that they are being given harsher treatment? this is a deliberate “political” ploy to excuse their thuggery and deliberate foul play especially the offside rule. Over time referees and commisioners withdraw and thus their foul play gains an inch. eventually they are allowed to do whatever they want Look at Butch James late tackles on Carter and the constant Offside. THey constantly play Offside so that now referees are alot more tolerant and their offside rule has been skewed to accomodate them. THe IRB needs to be firm over the next 2 years and have Iron clad rules not the referees interpretation rules that over time become the new rule thus degenirating into a free for all and then having a radical ELV experiment. Even thses ELV’s will end up looking completely different over time as refrees become lenient (can you imagine a Springbok team realistically defend from 5 meters away from the scrum?
TembaVJ said | July 24th 2008 @ 4:12pm | Report comment
Hear that true tah, the saffers are manipulating the IRB law makers and world referee’s, bending them to their will. Not bad for a bunch of 3rd world Neanderthals.
True Tah said | July 24th 2008 @ 4:31pm | Report comment
TembaVJ,
for a country which prides itself on its meat dishes, boerewors, biltong, bobotie, bunny chow, you would think maybe the South African Rugby Union would feed some meat to Bakkies…maybe then he wouldn’t need to snack on Wallabies.
Most South Africans I know don’t really care that Bakkies is a thug, they seem to revel in that the bloke is still playing for the Boks, and that he can get away with what he does.
If a Wallaby did what Botha did, can you imagine the headlines “Sheep shagger dines on Bok delicacy” or a “Wallaby Stole My Biltong”
The Neanderthrals comment wasn’t aimed at South Africans specifically, it was aimed at that sort of player, guys like Richard Loe, half the French forwards of the 1980s and early 90s.
The French have made efforts in cleaning up their play, and the equivalent of Bakkies in France (i.e. Sebastien Chabal) has not established himself a reputation as a thug. Why haven’t the Boks done the same?
Peter K said | July 24th 2008 @ 4:41pm | Report comment
bradley - All teams break the laws in a planned deliberate manner. They all cheat. Being constantly offside is a typical play of probably every team.
Most teams organisations / officials are full of media bytes to influence the officials before and after matches, eddie the moaner amongst the worst ever. Thankfully Deans does not seem to do it.
I do agree that referees become desensitised to illegalities, so much so that are are ignored.
Examples are scrum feeds, not rolling away from ruck, lifting legs in mauls, offside (technically both feet have to be behind the offside line, it has creeped up such that refs allow it if only 1 foot is on the line) it can go on and on.
Some are systematic to all refs, others are SH/NH based, and then others just that ref.
But do not put this on SA, they are just everyone else in this regard.
I do not agree re Butch James. He was a marked man for a while for not using arms in the tackle, to such an extent he was penalised on suspicion where other players would of got away with it.
stuff happens said | July 24th 2008 @ 4:47pm | Report comment
True Tah,
‘Why haven’t the Boks done the same ?
Because they don’t need to and it helps them to become World Champions. The previous WC’s were England who had Johnson & Dallaglio - see anyone messing with them? Nope.
Now sometimes things get out of hand and obviously no one wants or should tolerate gouging, biting and kicking an opponent, but in the scheme of things these are pretty rare and people usually get rubbed out for weeks or months.
True Tah said | July 24th 2008 @ 5:00pm | Report comment
Stuff Happens,
Johnson and Dallaglio might have been hard and uncompromising, but they did not bite and eye gouge.
I just think that the Boks are a bit behind in cleaning up their play. I don’t think there was any malice in what Botha did with his shoulder, but du Plessis knuckled Adrian Thompson in the eye.
Photon said | July 24th 2008 @ 5:56pm | Report comment
True Tah, you know what I would like to know!!
What I’d like to know, is how come the sighting commissioner gets shown six angles and the members of the public get to see one angle, and most notably the angle that suggests foul play.
I’d also like to know why we don’t get shown the replay that shows that George Smiths’ pass to Pieter Hynes was forward. That’s what I’d like to know.
Dublin Dave said | July 24th 2008 @ 6:54pm | Report comment
I suspect that what the South Africans will say to this is: “Don’t be a sook, mate.” Or whatever that is in Afrikaans.
Personally, having only seen the youtube clip of the incident cited above, it looks to me as if he clearly went in to cause damage. Look at the position of his right arm: it’s tied to his side as rigidly as a Riverdancer. The fact that his own player was caught in some friendly fire is incidental. What was he trying to achieve going in at an angle like that on a falling player and leading with his shoulder?
I reckon the citing commissioner is cut from the same cloth as the defence lawyers in the Rodney King case.
Younger readers who don’t get that reference can look it up on youtube. The six guys with sticks got off because the guy on the ground was deemed to be assaulting them!
stuff happens said | July 24th 2008 @ 7:03pm | Report comment
True Tah - I think we agree on most of this.
Rugby is a far cleaner game today overall becuase of the all seeing eye of the camera.
You’re right it needs to be becuase here in Sydney there is a noticeable drift in rugby playing schools to football which is now an acceptable alternative. Rugby is burdened by far too many rules , penalties and harassed referees ( why does anyone want that job) and yes it’s rough.Many Mums ( & Dads ) don’t like it much.There is a fight for TV viewers between League, AFL, Football and Rugby and Rugby ain’t doing well, which brings me back to the appalling Channel 7 coverage. This is a huge problem for the ARU who should be doing evreything possible to grow its supporter base on TV . This includes the Six Nations ( whom we all love to hate). The coverage here in Aust is dreadful .
The ARU thinks that marketing rugby in Australia is only about the Wallabies - it emphatically is not.
Some years ago the RFU ( whom we all love to hate) went for Sky B rather than the BBC/ITV for all England’s matches then realised that money is one thing but unless you can attract new viewers to your game you will start to die.
Oh and in the scheme of things Bakkies and co. are a small part of all this!
Sorry this is a bit long
John said | July 24th 2008 @ 7:15pm | Report comment
I played rugby in Aust. in the 60’s and 70’s. (mind you not to any great heights ) It was a tough game . I don’t really see any problem with Botha. So what? Did any of you men play in that era and if you did do you regard Botha as a thug? In the 60’s and 70’s there were some fierce contests but we still loved the game and still had a beer afterwards with our opposition. We revere Brockhoff as an Aust rugby icon. Who was the coach of the Wallabies in that period?
Hatchet said | July 24th 2008 @ 7:59pm | Report comment
At least SA RU do the right thing by putting the players IQ on the back of their guernsys then we know what to expect.
Hatchet
Westy said | July 24th 2008 @ 8:23pm | Report comment
Enjoyed reading good rugby thread except for first post……..Greg………do not introduce league to this discussion. Indeed Botha would be well accepted in league it was a good hit.
eric said | July 24th 2008 @ 9:11pm | Report comment
Thanks for the link to youtube Adam. The video clearly shows Botha leading with his shoulder into Mortlocks head as he fell. Where on earth did Peter Rowles get that bulldust response from to BL’s questions? Doesn’t that response totally undermine any credibility of the citing system? Who are they kidding?
Benjamin said | July 25th 2008 @ 12:42am | Report comment
‘the biting and eye gouging comes from a long time ago under Rudolph Straeul renowned for tactics of unsettling the other team.’
Johan Le Roux didn’t play under Rudolf.
Greg said | July 25th 2008 @ 4:19am | Report comment
Westy
Do not tell me what to do buddy. Got it?
Zolton Zavos said | July 25th 2008 @ 4:48am | Report comment
Guys, please keep this thread focused on sports. The first comment under this post was entirely appropriate. There’s no need to try and flame an argument. Thanks, Zolton
Photon said | July 25th 2008 @ 4:06pm | Report comment
Zolton
“My best answer to the quandry lies in assumptions about intelligence; the only way to get at a player more intelligent than yourself is to lower the contest into something more barbaric.”
I’m not here to caus trouble but in all fairness,that’s an inflammatory statement, you cannot seriously expect it not to garner a response from the South Africans that are here!!
ohtani's jacket said | July 25th 2008 @ 4:27pm | Report comment
Might take some flack for this, but I reckon Botha is awesome.
On a South African blog, I wondered what would happen if Botha took a “clean hit,” since he’s pretty tough.
I got the following answer:
” I have seen him being punched from behind when he was still at the Valke playing against the Leopards in Potch, a moerse punch! He went down, got up and looked for the cuplrit, put the final whistel (spelling) went. I thought know he is going to bliksem the guy, it was the no 12 of all players. He shook his hand and smiled. The following year he went to the Bulls, and the first game was against the Leopards, within the first seconds the same no 12 took a crash ball, ruck formed and he was taken off with a stretcher, again he just smiled.”
Can’t wait to see Thorn and Botha chase each other around the park again.
True Tah said | July 25th 2008 @ 4:28pm | Report comment
stuff happens,
personally I think you can learn a hell of a lot on the rugby field, you form some great friendships and you have respect for your opposition player. As a rugby supporter, it is my jihad to spread this to as many fellow Australians as possible, and I would like a hell of a lot more people be given the opportunity to play rugby.
Rugby is a tough game, and its going to be too demanding for a lot of people, but that the last thing I want is thugs spoiling the image, and lets face it, rugby is in by no means the good books with the media these days, anything bad about our game will be an excuse for parents to ship their sons off to soccer or AFL.
I just get pissed off when I read about how mums and dads are worried about their little johnnies getting hurt playing contact sports. Given the amount of car accidents and deaths, whats next? My parents were the same boat, I was told that soccer was the only sport I could play, a few years later I gave taekwondo a go for a few more years and I guess rugby was the logical step after that.
Will little Johnny’s parents do - not let him drive at all?
stuff happens said | July 25th 2008 @ 4:31pm | Report comment
Good point Photon.My recommnendation is that we all smile like Bakkies Botha and move on. You know that little smile of his, (and what it means!)
matta said | July 25th 2008 @ 6:19pm | Report comment
I cant be assed reading the whole post but leave it alone lads…I am pretty sure the ‘binding onto anohter man’ rule at ruck time was thrown away a while back - could be wrong.
I would give my right arm for Boath to be an Aussie.
Greg said | July 25th 2008 @ 8:17pm | Report comment
Matta
I wouldn’t. Simple as that.
Photon - if you and some other fellows on this thread had read me accurately, you could not have missed my point about ‘assumptions’. I made no grand statement about Oz intelligence, and you’ll notice I drew parrallels between NZ, Oz and SA.
The hit on Mortlock was blatant. Anyone who has played rugby and is utterly honest with themselves, knows that Botha is an intentional thug. If you guys would like an eye-guager on your team, so be it.
My point was about bygone eras. AJTemba wants to police this thread heavily, it seems, and then throw in chest thumping claims about religiosity and goodness. As if there is a correlation.
Ask yourself; does Botha play in the spirit of the game? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. But when he doesn’t, he’s a ugly player who thrives on hating and malicious hurt.
Tru Tah; I completely agree that rugby - the demands it places on body and mind - and what it can teach you, can be undersold via ‘little johnnie is going to be hurt’ over-caution. What strikes me is that some say that you can’t have Rugby without the Bothas. I completely disagree, and if there hadn’t been an argument like this bursting the bubble of thuggery over the years, we’d still have French eye-guagers aplenty. We don’t. And this change owes no thanks to the arguments of those who love off-the ball violence.
As an aside; Westy, Temba and co, get over it - some of us don’t agree with you.
Greg.
Benjamin said | July 25th 2008 @ 10:15pm | Report comment
On a different note, all this talk of Botha being a hard man is somewhat innacurate. Surely every international forwards is a hard man to an extent? Professionalism means that there aren’t any real hard men because most forwards are as strong as each other and thus there aren’t many physical disparities. For that reason I doubt any other forwards are actually intimidated by Botha. Also as traditional stereotypes go, rugby hardmen have always been dark haired, stubbly, broken nosed scowlers, Bathies looks like a big blond kiddy.
Anyhow, regarding rugby value I can’t see why so many SH fans like him? He rarely carries the ball up, doesn’t pull his weight in the lineout and is a bit of a penalty magnet. Matfield is a genius, absolute genius whilst Botha is deadweight IMO. As far as no 4s go Thorn is far more effective around the field and Vickerman is both tough and excellent in the air. Realistically he is just a slimmer Wiese, another Otto and he really must improve his game under the ELVs.
Peter K said | July 25th 2008 @ 10:31pm | Report comment
Botha rarely carries the ball up because he doesn’t want to be on the end of retribution.
He would rather dish it to people who can’t see it coming, or are pinned and defenceless.