Comments on: Why Bakkies Botha wasn’t cited for striking Mortlock

By: Benjamin

Benjamin — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 19:23:37 +0000

Botha isn’t world class. Grow up.

By: Peter K

Peter K — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 12:31:32 +0000

Botha rarely carries the ball up because he doesn’t want to be on the end of retribution.
He would rather dish it to people who can’t see it coming, or are pinned and defenceless.

By: Benjamin

Benjamin — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 12:15:13 +0000

On a different note, all this talk of Botha being a hard man is somewhat innacurate. Surely every international forwards is a hard man to an extent? Professionalism means that there aren’t any real hard men because most forwards are as strong as each other and thus there aren’t many physical disparities. For that reason I doubt any other forwards are actually intimidated by Botha. Also as traditional stereotypes go, rugby hardmen have always been dark haired, stubbly, broken nosed scowlers, Bathies looks like a big blond kiddy.

Anyhow, regarding rugby value I can’t see why so many SH fans like him? He rarely carries the ball up, doesn’t pull his weight in the lineout and is a bit of a penalty magnet. Matfield is a genius, absolute genius whilst Botha is deadweight IMO. As far as no 4s go Thorn is far more effective around the field and Vickerman is both tough and excellent in the air. Realistically he is just a slimmer Wiese, another Otto and he really must improve his game under the ELVs.

By: Greg

Greg — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:17:59 +0000

Matta

I wouldn’t. Simple as that.

Photon - if you and some other fellows on this thread had read me accurately, you could not have missed my point about ‘assumptions’. I made no grand statement about Oz intelligence, and you’ll notice I drew parrallels between NZ, Oz and SA.

The hit on Mortlock was blatant. Anyone who has played rugby and is utterly honest with themselves, knows that Botha is an intentional thug. If you guys would like an eye-guager on your team, so be it.

My point was about bygone eras. AJTemba wants to police this thread heavily, it seems, and then throw in chest thumping claims about religiosity and goodness. As if there is a correlation.

Ask yourself; does Botha play in the spirit of the game? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. But when he doesn’t, he’s a ugly player who thrives on hating and malicious hurt.

Tru Tah; I completely agree that rugby - the demands it places on body and mind - and what it can teach you, can be undersold via ‘little johnnie is going to be hurt’ over-caution. What strikes me is that some say that you can’t have Rugby without the Bothas. I completely disagree, and if there hadn’t been an argument like this bursting the bubble of thuggery over the years, we’d still have French eye-guagers aplenty. We don’t. And this change owes no thanks to the arguments of those who love off-the ball violence.

As an aside; Westy, Temba and co, get over it - some of us don’t agree with you.

Greg.

By: matta

matta — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 08:19:09 +0000

I cant be assed reading the whole post but leave it alone lads…I am pretty sure the ‘binding onto anohter man’ rule at ruck time was thrown away a while back - could be wrong.

I would give my right arm for Boath to be an Aussie.

By: stuff happens

stuff happens — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 06:31:11 +0000

Good point Photon.My recommnendation is that we all smile like Bakkies Botha and move on. You know that little smile of his, (and what it means!)

By: True Tah

True Tah — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 06:28:22 +0000

stuff happens,

personally I think you can learn a hell of a lot on the rugby field, you form some great friendships and you have respect for your opposition player. As a rugby supporter, it is my jihad to spread this to as many fellow Australians as possible, and I would like a hell of a lot more people be given the opportunity to play rugby.

Rugby is a tough game, and its going to be too demanding for a lot of people, but that the last thing I want is thugs spoiling the image, and lets face it, rugby is in by no means the good books with the media these days, anything bad about our game will be an excuse for parents to ship their sons off to soccer or AFL.

I just get pissed off when I read about how mums and dads are worried about their little johnnies getting hurt playing contact sports. Given the amount of car accidents and deaths, whats next? My parents were the same boat, I was told that soccer was the only sport I could play, a few years later I gave taekwondo a go for a few more years and I guess rugby was the logical step after that.

Will little Johnny’s parents do - not let him drive at all?

By: ohtani's jacket

ohtani's jacket — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 06:27:22 +0000

Might take some flack for this, but I reckon Botha is awesome.

On a South African blog, I wondered what would happen if Botha took a “clean hit,” since he’s pretty tough.

I got the following answer:

” I have seen him being punched from behind when he was still at the Valke playing against the Leopards in Potch, a moerse punch! He went down, got up and looked for the cuplrit, put the final whistel (spelling) went. I thought know he is going to bliksem the guy, it was the no 12 of all players. He shook his hand and smiled. The following year he went to the Bulls, and the first game was against the Leopards, within the first seconds the same no 12 took a crash ball, ruck formed and he was taken off with a stretcher, again he just smiled.”

Can’t wait to see Thorn and Botha chase each other around the park again.

By: Photon

Photon — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 06:06:02 +0000

Zolton
“My best answer to the quandry lies in assumptions about intelligence; the only way to get at a player more intelligent than yourself is to lower the contest into something more barbaric.”
I’m not here to caus trouble but in all fairness,that’s an inflammatory statement, you cannot seriously expect it not to garner a response from the South Africans that are here!!

By: Zolton Zavos

Zolton Zavos — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 18:48:04 +0000

Guys, please keep this thread focused on sports. The first comment under this post was entirely appropriate. There’s no need to try and flame an argument. Thanks, Zolton

By: Greg

Greg — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 18:19:01 +0000

Westy

Do not tell me what to do buddy. Got it?

By: Benjamin

Benjamin — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:42:15 +0000

‘the biting and eye gouging comes from a long time ago under Rudolph Straeul renowned for tactics of unsettling the other team.’

Johan Le Roux didn’t play under Rudolf.

By: eric

eric — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:11:45 +0000

Thanks for the link to youtube Adam. The video clearly shows Botha leading with his shoulder into Mortlocks head as he fell. Where on earth did Peter Rowles get that bulldust response from to BL’s questions? Doesn’t that response totally undermine any credibility of the citing system? Who are they kidding?

By: Westy

Westy — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:23:33 +0000

Enjoyed reading good rugby thread except for first post……..Greg………do not introduce league to this discussion. Indeed Botha would be well accepted in league it was a good hit.

By: Hatchet

Hatchet — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:59:10 +0000

At least SA RU do the right thing by putting the players IQ on the back of their guernsys then we know what to expect.
Hatchet

By: John

John — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:15:24 +0000

I played rugby in Aust. in the 60’s and 70’s. (mind you not to any great heights ) It was a tough game . I don’t really see any problem with Botha. So what? Did any of you men play in that era and if you did do you regard Botha as a thug? In the 60’s and 70’s there were some fierce contests but we still loved the game and still had a beer afterwards with our opposition. We revere Brockhoff as an Aust rugby icon. Who was the coach of the Wallabies in that period?

By: stuff happens

stuff happens — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:03:49 +0000

True Tah - I think we agree on most of this.
Rugby is a far cleaner game today overall becuase of the all seeing eye of the camera.
You’re right it needs to be becuase here in Sydney there is a noticeable drift in rugby playing schools to football which is now an acceptable alternative. Rugby is burdened by far too many rules , penalties and harassed referees ( why does anyone want that job) and yes it’s rough.Many Mums ( & Dads ) don’t like it much.There is a fight for TV viewers between League, AFL, Football and Rugby and Rugby ain’t doing well, which brings me back to the appalling Channel 7 coverage. This is a huge problem for the ARU who should be doing evreything possible to grow its supporter base on TV . This includes the Six Nations ( whom we all love to hate). The coverage here in Aust is dreadful .
The ARU thinks that marketing rugby in Australia is only about the Wallabies - it emphatically is not.
Some years ago the RFU ( whom we all love to hate) went for Sky B rather than the BBC/ITV for all England’s matches then realised that money is one thing but unless you can attract new viewers to your game you will start to die.
Oh and in the scheme of things Bakkies and co. are a small part of all this!
Sorry this is a bit long

By: Dublin Dave

Dublin Dave — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 08:54:53 +0000

I suspect that what the South Africans will say to this is: “Don’t be a sook, mate.” Or whatever that is in Afrikaans.

Personally, having only seen the youtube clip of the incident cited above, it looks to me as if he clearly went in to cause damage. Look at the position of his right arm: it’s tied to his side as rigidly as a Riverdancer. The fact that his own player was caught in some friendly fire is incidental. What was he trying to achieve going in at an angle like that on a falling player and leading with his shoulder?

I reckon the citing commissioner is cut from the same cloth as the defence lawyers in the Rodney King case.

Younger readers who don’t get that reference can look it up on youtube. The six guys with sticks got off because the guy on the ground was deemed to be assaulting them!

By: Photon

Photon — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 07:56:01 +0000

True Tah, you know what I would like to know!!
What I’d like to know, is how come the sighting commissioner gets shown six angles and the members of the public get to see one angle, and most notably the angle that suggests foul play.
I’d also like to know why we don’t get shown the replay that shows that George Smiths’ pass to Pieter Hynes was forward. That’s what I’d like to know.

By: True Tah

True Tah — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 07:00:40 +0000

Stuff Happens,

Johnson and Dallaglio might have been hard and uncompromising, but they did not bite and eye gouge.

I just think that the Boks are a bit behind in cleaning up their play. I don’t think there was any malice in what Botha did with his shoulder, but du Plessis knuckled Adrian Thompson in the eye.

By: stuff happens

stuff happens — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 06:47:05 +0000

True Tah,
‘Why haven’t the Boks done the same ?
Because they don’t need to and it helps them to become World Champions. The previous WC’s were England who had Johnson & Dallaglio - see anyone messing with them? Nope.
Now sometimes things get out of hand and obviously no one wants or should tolerate gouging, biting and kicking an opponent, but in the scheme of things these are pretty rare and people usually get rubbed out for weeks or months.

By: Peter K

Peter K — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 06:41:20 +0000

bradley - All teams break the laws in a planned deliberate manner. They all cheat. Being constantly offside is a typical play of probably every team.
Most teams organisations / officials are full of media bytes to influence the officials before and after matches, eddie the moaner amongst the worst ever. Thankfully Deans does not seem to do it.

I do agree that referees become desensitised to illegalities, so much so that are are ignored.
Examples are scrum feeds, not rolling away from ruck, lifting legs in mauls, offside (technically both feet have to be behind the offside line, it has creeped up such that refs allow it if only 1 foot is on the line) it can go on and on.
Some are systematic to all refs, others are SH/NH based, and then others just that ref.
But do not put this on SA, they are just everyone else in this regard.

I do not agree re Butch James. He was a marked man for a while for not using arms in the tackle, to such an extent he was penalised on suspicion where other players would of got away with it.

By: True Tah

True Tah — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 06:31:54 +0000

TembaVJ,

for a country which prides itself on its meat dishes, boerewors, biltong, bobotie, bunny chow, you would think maybe the South African Rugby Union would feed some meat to Bakkies…maybe then he wouldn’t need to snack on Wallabies.

Most South Africans I know don’t really care that Bakkies is a thug, they seem to revel in that the bloke is still playing for the Boks, and that he can get away with what he does.

If a Wallaby did what Botha did, can you imagine the headlines “Sheep shagger dines on Bok delicacy” or a “Wallaby Stole My Biltong”

The Neanderthrals comment wasn’t aimed at South Africans specifically, it was aimed at that sort of player, guys like Richard Loe, half the French forwards of the 1980s and early 90s.

The French have made efforts in cleaning up their play, and the equivalent of Bakkies in France (i.e. Sebastien Chabal) has not established himself a reputation as a thug. Why haven’t the Boks done the same?

By: TembaVJ

TembaVJ — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 06:12:21 +0000

Hear that true tah, the saffers are manipulating the IRB law makers and world referee’s, bending them to their will. Not bad for a bunch of 3rd world Neanderthals.

By: bradley

bradley — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 05:24:36 +0000

Have you noticed how after every game and every citing the Springboks management and players complain that they are being given harsher treatment? this is a deliberate “political” ploy to excuse their thuggery and deliberate foul play especially the offside rule. Over time referees and commisioners withdraw and thus their foul play gains an inch. eventually they are allowed to do whatever they want Look at Butch James late tackles on Carter and the constant Offside. THey constantly play Offside so that now referees are alot more tolerant and their offside rule has been skewed to accomodate them. THe IRB needs to be firm over the next 2 years and have Iron clad rules not the referees interpretation rules that over time become the new rule thus degenirating into a free for all and then having a radical ELV experiment. Even thses ELV’s will end up looking completely different over time as refrees become lenient (can you imagine a Springbok team realistically defend from 5 meters away from the scrum?

By: TembaVJ

TembaVJ — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:45:31 +0000

Comparing Australian Rugby culture to South African rugby culture (if that is what you are doing) is like comparing Ferrari’s to Land-rovers. We should be thankful they play different styles or the sport would be as boring to spectate as a game of darts. The “intimidating hard man” is as much a part of South African rugby culture as kicking the ball is. Botha is not the first and he will not be the last, get over it. He is world class but not perfect, the biting and eye gouging comes from a long time ago under Rudolph Straeul renowned for tactics of unsettling the other team.
Cleaning out the ruck is something every team has a player or two for… normally Neanderthal look-alikes. I love how some people claim to be angel like saviors of the game yet next weeks role reversal bring about a the love for grinding, rucking all out bloody warfare as a noble effort to win a game.
I do agree Butch and Bakkies are from a generation of overkill hardmen but Rome was not built in a day and change will not come over night… perhaps in 12-15 years we will eventually see a bunch of superior fit pansies take the field but will you be longing for the days of the hardman, will you miss hating Bakkies Botha?

By: True Tah

True Tah — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:18:26 +0000

TembaVJ,

I did watch both of the games in NZ between Boks and Blacks, and yes they were a lot more intense than the Wallaby game. If the All Blacks hadn’t softened the Wallabies up, then I would have put money on the Boks to win in Perth.

What I find perplexing is that the Boks don’t need a thug like Bakkies in the myrtle green, they have some amazing players, why do they need to resort to eye gouging, biting and the like? The Boks played to their talents in NZ, and it showed that they are a class side who can win in hostile environments.

I will be watching the games in South Africa. I think the spoils will be shared between the Wallabies and the Boks there one game a piece, unless the Pumas soften you blokes up for us, then it will be two games to the Wallabies.

The point re: Australian mums is that that our society in Australia seems to be getting softer and softer. FFS when I was growing up, I played these giants as well and I had to tackle and get tackled by them as well, if anything it helped me work on my tackling a hell of a lot quicker.

If the toughest thing in life is having to tackle a 110kg Islander when you 13 or 14, then you’ve had a charmed life.

By: TembaVJ

TembaVJ — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:00:30 +0000

If I had a dollar for each time an Australian refers to a South African as a Neanderthal id be on a beach in Bali instead of playing place the blame on someone with you lot.

True Tah, I think Bakkies is even less worried about what Australian mum’s thinks then weather or not he is a target by the worlds fastest obese man and a couple of midgets in the next Walla vs. Bok game. Rugby men should be tought by their fathers and stitched up by mums. Over and over you guys think that your problems with football codes should be carried by the rest of the world.

You think the last game was hard…. mate did you watch any of the All Black games? You should thanks your lucky stars that the All Blacks soften the boks up before the Wallabies face them. Playing in South Africa is not going to be a place for the faith hearted perhaps you could get O’Neil to fly out a bunch of mums to help out?

You are right on one point harden the **** up, Australia is one of the world greatest sporting nations, I am sure little gazza will find some other sport to do while his mum wipes his nose for him.

By: Peter K

Peter K — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 03:49:01 +0000

True Tah - That is the point I am making. This is not an isolated incident by that player. Nor is it restricted to the odd punch or shoulder charge. Botha has been cited for eye gouging , biting and headbutting. He is a thug, a type of player I would not want in my team. I feel sorry for Boks who feel they have to support a thug regardless of what he does.

I have no issue with hardmen going a little bit too far sometimes, and this is a tame incident, and if it was another player would not be worth the comment. However it is a serial repeat thug at work.

By: True Tah

True Tah — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 03:47:01 +0000

Murry,

Finane played all of three test matches for Australia, whereas Botha has been a constant feature of Springbok rugby for last few years.

I guess the Wallabies didn’t really want a thug in their side, which could explain his lack of caps. He had a purpose (to nullify the Welsh scrum) and did it well (by breaking their props jaw).