By Garth Hamilton
July 30th 2008 @ 1:56am
Related coverage
David Gallop, it’s time to merge the codes
There are a lot of easy targets in the Sonny Bill Williams saga: the headstrong runaway who’s done the dirty on his mates, the conniving managers, and the aloof CEO hypocritically demanding support from an enemy that has been savagely plundered by his predecessors for over a hundred years.
All of them make great caricatures for the tabloid press and talk back radio stations, but are any of them playing out anything more than the inevitable?
It is sometimes said that the two World Wars were really just two acts of the same war, with a couple of decades gap in between. The same underlying issues that started World War One were never fully resolved, and as problems lingered, the world moved inevitably towards their terrible conclusion.
The problems that caused the Super League War that ripped apart rugby league in Australia during the mid 1990s still linger.
The compromised peace deal that brought the code back together left it in pretty much the same state it was before the commencement of hostilities, give or take a few clubs.
However, whilst the game has continued on in this no-man’s land, some new problems have emerged. Most importantly, rugby league is no longer at the top of the food chain in the rugby world.
For decades rugby league has been the bully in the Australian schoolyard and now the ARU has called in its big, French brother to come and give them a taste of their own medicine.
They should have seen it coming.
Rugby league could have spent the last decade getting its house in order. However, now the horse and Sonny Bill have bolted and foolhardy legal challenges are unlikely to have any effect.
The NRL faces some tough choices ahead and the coming World Cup will do little to plaster over the cracks.
The options are to continue as they have been, indignant, hypocritical and self-righteous, or to make the tough decision to face up to the realities that confront them.
The later almost certainly means restructuring the competition.
Perhaps there is a third way, a path through Moria, that would see the NRL adopt the ELVs and the rest of the rules of rugby with them. It won’t happen in one fell swoop but, just as the steady flow of individual players has trickled across over the last decade, it will happen one club at a time.
It will start with, for example, the Bulldogs fielding both an NRL and a Super rugby team that share the same facilities. Or the Broncos and the Reds merging.
Then, as union slowly grows with increased money from a lengthened Super rugby season, the league side will begin to dwindle as the NRL fails to restructure its competition.
The club’s board will follow the trail of cash right over to the dark side, slowly choking the 13 man team in the process, and before you know it, a great old league institution will have ‘converted’ in its entirety.
It might not happen exactly the way I’ve described it, but it is a scenario that definitely sits within the realms of possibility.
The club conversion described above is not a dream but a warning.
Restructuring appears inevitable for the NRL, but are they aware of how things have changed since the competition last shed clubs?
Rugby in Australia is arguably now in a position to pick up not only players discarded by a restructuring NRL, but entire clubs as well. If the game once again turned its back on Souths, you cannot tell me that John O’Neil and SANZAR wouldn’t consider offering their board a means of keeping the flame alive.
O’Neil’s desire for a fifth Australian Super rugby team is well known, and jilted fans may prove more fickle than league bosses might expect.
Can the NRL afford to not only lose a team and its supporters, but to gift them to its rival? Can it afford not to?
When Wendell Sailor left the Brisbane Broncos to join the Queensland Reds, the rugby league press said “we won’t miss him.”
When Lote Tuqiri and Matt Rogers followed, the rugby league press again said “we won’t miss him.”
As each of Gower, Gasnier, Tahu and Williams have gone, they are still saying “we won’t miss him.”
And now, as the next Australian rugby league player starts looking to maximise his pay packet, somewhere in France a rugby scout is assuring his boss, “we won’t miss him.”
Garth is the secretary of the London branch of Wooden Spoon, rugby's charity for disadvantaged children. If you would like to know more about Spoon please visit the website.
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(131)
Just a Fan said | July 30th 2008 @ 3:27am | Report comment
“rugby league is no longer at the top of the food chain in the rugby world.” Ha ha..never was! League is only big in Oz….to the rest of the world it is a non-entity….
Dave Gilbank said | July 30th 2008 @ 3:57am | Report comment
Garth, congratulations on writing the biggest piece of contrived bollocks and garbage written in many a day. No doubt you’ll stir up the wasps nest (bumbleebee’s nest) with this bilge.
Serriously, why not write somehting that’s interesting – and not the good old “wait, can you hear it? ‘Tis the death nell for Roogby Leeg!”
Your wiritng smells like the worst diesel fish trawler this side of Hull. Mate, get a job writing on the X-Files or maybe Scooby Doo.
You don’t know what you are talking about. Write about a game that you have watched or played, like netball, maybe.
bailey said | July 30th 2008 @ 6:34am | Report comment
i agree with ‘just a fan’ rugby league is ONLY big in Australia!!!! the fact that they feel union is taking over is stupid because by in large, union had always outsmarted league financially and globally, i think its only now that they’re really getting the brunt of it.
The Answer said | July 30th 2008 @ 6:46am | Report comment
Nice one Garth, for a minute I felt like I was Martin Sheen in “Apocalypse Now” finally getting to the end of the river and finding the madness you playing a brillant Dennis Hopper to Spiro’s Marlon Brando. “He’s the grrrrrrreat man!”
But the Tolkien reference gave it away, you were joking. I mean never ask a bloke who quotes Tolkien about sport and dames, right?
So an excellent satircial piece, and very well timed with everyone starting to think the union boys were starting to take themselves a little too seriously. I think the bullied school boy analogy was one of the best I’ve heard, there is poor old union still getting beaten up and it’s lunch money stolen by rugby league more than ten years after everyone thought it would go away. Thank god someone stepped in to even up the fight.
But still chuckling, the blokes who brought you the ARC, now bring you the NRL! Love it.
Here’s a slogan for the reborn body. The ARU. Played by mungoes, coached by Kiwis.
Dave Gilbank said | July 30th 2008 @ 7:06am | Report comment
The Answer! The Answer!
The Horror! The Horror!
Tom Bombadil is the ruler of the forest!
Bet ol Garth don’t even know who that honky boy is.
Sonny don’t surf and I love the smell of Garth’s palm in the morning.
Umbrellas up for the rain of Union propaganda/brown, smelly stuff that will soon fall onto this page from their blinkered festering putird mouths — and lets not forget that you MUST include some good old TV ratings figures for the last…let’s see….six years? Make it seven.
Union is dying. FACT. They should merge with abalone fishing. That way there’s a good chance they will be eaten and shat out by a Great White.
here’s hoping…
Mungo said | July 30th 2008 @ 7:36am | Report comment
Spot on Garth, funny how nobody likes the truth, Union dying? over 3 billion watched the last world cup, how many watch the RL WC? AFL WC who do they play, the Irish of course and predictably have to change the rules, ahhh its good to sit back and watch the panic…
Redb said | July 30th 2008 @ 8:55am | Report comment
Mungo,
You know what happens after pride puffs you up?
The codes won’t merge and this puffed up talk from union folk will just give the RL boys more ammo to stay separate and stick it right up you blokes.
Unless you live in another country the battleground is Australia for the hearts and minds. I dont see union on free to air TV? Just some ‘facts’. Elsewhere on the Roar there’s an article trumpeting the Bledisloe as a pay tv winner – oops only 25% of the country has pay tv.
Union still has a lot of work to do in this country. Shite I find myself defending rugby league.
Redb
Mitch O said | July 30th 2008 @ 8:58am | Report comment
I for one hope both league and union survive as separate entities for eternity. Diversity in sport is a wonderful thing – and to be cherished. The alternative, it seems, is for every man and his dog to play soccer (a much scarier prospect).
Terry Kidd said | July 30th 2008 @ 9:14am | Report comment
Thanks Mitch O for some sanity. Garth your article does no one any good and is really pie in the sky. Redb, you are correct. Rugby, both internationals and Super 14 must be seen free to air, even if they are delayed telecasts. Until that happens things won’t expand too much and both codes will continue pretty much as they are.
In my opinion Sonny Bill can go, and good riddance. The Bulldogs can now go and spend his salary on development of a wonderful group of junior players …. has no one seen Toyota Cup games?
Guys, lets face it …. a player has shot through seeking big money elsewhere. That player contributed very little to his club (played less than 50% of games since the 2004 Grand Final) and obviously didn’t think much of loyalty to his club or fellow players. By the end of this season that player will be forgotten.
alex said | July 30th 2008 @ 9:14am | Report comment
Merging is nice in theory, but the two codes actually represent fundamentally different philosophies. Because of this, rugby even with the ELVs, is not league with lineouts, as a major league official recently said (quite stupidly). Any merger will therfore be in reality a takeover. But do we want to take over the violent mess that league has become? Sure we want some of their crowds and promotional money, but isn’t rugby bigger than just that? If all this a response to the challenge of French rugby, we are misreading what’s going on.
Towser said | July 30th 2008 @ 9:58am | Report comment
Mitch O
As a fan, No problem with everybody playing football(soccer).
But back to this story & the Rugbies merging.
Not being a dedicated follower of either sport let me throw a few points to fans of both League & union.
One I believe if Rugby had continued as one sport like football it would be far more wide spread & a bigger commercial game globally.
Two what is the only time that either Rugby code has captured my attention & been remotely interesting. Its as clear as day when I see a player make a break & run with the ball,which is I believe why the game split from Association Football in the first place. If Rugby had not split this concept could have evolved in a far cleaner & purer manner. Instead I observe on these sorts of forums the chest puffing alluded to by Redb re the mechanics & spectator appeal regarding both League & Union.
One of the reasons football became a World game is because it didn’t split & the origonal philosophy of the sport remained intact throughout, That is the kicking passing dribbling game as opposed to the “Running” game.
If football had had further splits into the 20th century you may have been seeing a different scenario today with fragmentation rather than unity being the case.
For all FIFAs faults it controls the game globally in a uniform & ordered manner.
The posturing of David Gallup towards the IRB re the SBW case shows where the Rugbies are at in this respect.
IF they had not split perhaps an organisation like FIFA may have evolved in a one Rugby game.
Its probably too late now for Rugby reconciliation & one united game, but the way the world is shrinking I’d seriously be giving it(amalgamation) consideration if I was a fan or administrator of either Rugby code.
The alternative is more messy scenarios like we see presently.
cosmos forever said | July 30th 2008 @ 10:11am | Report comment
Hasn’t the merged model already been tried in the NH. I notice London Harlequins in the Super League and I was sure Leeds Rhinos were part of the Leeds RU set up. Garth – how have these organisations fared?
I thought a couple of years ago that the big clubs would eventually have huge squads of athletes and just pick a RU and RL team each week based on the opponent and other factors, but other than shared organisations I can’t see a merged code.
As for Rugby outsmarting League (and this is a genuine reflection not code defending) – didn’t the ARU make a substantial loss? I fail to see how they are in any position to swoop in and take advantage of this. I would have thought they are shaking in their boots at the prospect of French and English clubs taking their 20 year olds away as well.
As a compromise Garth, I’ll offer a version anyway – let’s call it the ‘Bridging the Gap Code”.
The private equity that JoN announced is actually going to be directed at league. Macquarie Bank will sell Sydney Airport and buy the NRL – then transform it into the third tier that rugby is incapable of getting it’s act together on. Put in a couple of extra sides like Sydney Uni, Randwick and whoever the bully boys are up in Bris and we have a 20 team third tier comp that plays union ELV’s (which make union league anyway).
Easy.
Jameswm said | July 30th 2008 @ 10:24am | Report comment
That was a great read.
I think League will become a suburban comp within 30 years or so. Rugby lost momentum when JON left, but with him back and the Super comp expanding, watch it make giant strides in the next 5 years. A viable form of national comp is a big deal too.
The league fans can argue with us in Australia, but elsewhere in the world there is no argument.
Part of the problem to be overcome in rugby is the stranglehold the RFU (read England) has over the game. They are the ones fighting law changes which would make the game more exciting and entertaining.
LeftArmSpinner said | July 30th 2008 @ 10:26am | Report comment
Lets talk business.
Players:
There are more than enough rugby (union and league) players coming through the respective youth and development systems. There is potential for lots more players from the bush and from AFL dominated states.
The elite players will follow the money, the lifestyle and the accolades. The more elite players you have, the higher the quality of the game is likely to be.
Product Quality:
The higher the quality of the game and the more entertaining it is, the more people will change viewing and attendance behaviour. Just look at the massive viewing figures for the first Beldisloe game.
If the experience matches the hype and expectation, those viewers will come back and seek out other opportunities to watch or attend games.
Success by the team, particularly if it is a national team in a global tournament (World Cup) will create the emotional bond that will convert them into loyal followers.
Scale:
We are experiencing an industry consolidation. The big will get bigger, the small/niche will continue to survive. Those in the middle will disappear.
Management:
In this critical phase, all sporting codes are going to need the best of management teams and unfettered boards of directors if they are to achieve maximum out of the consolidation. The IRB needs reform. The NRL has called for a strategic review – Too late for that.
Financial matters:
This brings me to the most important and final ingredient: the TV audience and hence the broadcast rights. It follows that the value of the broadcast rights will be driven all of the above.
On the basis of the current situation, Union can slowly but inexorably take over the NRL audience. NRL can do very little about. The question is whether ARU can make it happen, not whether NRL can stop it in the next 5 years.
Its not Union v’s League. Its business. Ignore the fundamentals it at your peril.
jimbo said | July 30th 2008 @ 10:45am | Report comment
Funny,
but nearly 12 months ago I found myself defending the RU code against the doomsayers.
After the ‘disastrous failure’ of the WBs and the ABs being knocked out of the QFs of the Rugby WC, the failure of the national RU comp after big financial losses and the lack of direction and leadership, many were predicting that RU would die a slow death.
People were calling for the codes to combine to save RU.
Now we have the NRL under attack – the defection of a high profile player like SBW is starting the doomsayers on the death trail of the NRL.
People are now calling for the codes to combine to save RL.
RU didn’t die a slow death last year and NRL will survive and bounce back as well.
What has happened since last year to change all this?
Good showing by Aus teams in the S14, a couple of wins over the Boks and ABs, the appointment of John O’Neill and better management and promotion.
Now a couple of very wealthy French RU club owners throwing their money around and poaching RU and RL players from around the world.
SBW wasn’t Toulon’s first choice either btw, they offered a staggering 750,000 pounds (about 2 million AUD) for one season to Dan Carter and he knocked it back, SBW was further down their list.
I don’t think they realised that the ripples they started in Toulon would have turned into an NRL Tsunami at the other end of the world.
On the NRL side, Gallop hasn’t handled the whole thing very well either and just continues to put petrol on the fire. NRL can afford to lose players like SBW and making all the fuss is just feeding the sharks and giving the game more negative press than it needs.
Money Bill will never return to RL now and the beneficiaries are the FRR and the ABs, not Aus Rugby.
Long live the fantastic sporting diversity of this country and don’t ever desert the sports you love.
Midfielder said | July 30th 2008 @ 10:57am | Report comment
What I find funny reading threads like this is the code that has the upper hand always baggs out the other.
OK rugby Union you are the second biggest football code in the world ………… now take a deep breath because of the size union has grown ………….. Australia is no longer as important as its use to be in the world of RU. My point just because you are an international game and big does not help if your local management is hopeless………… look to tennis if you wish for an Australian example of how to manage the international matches and loose the national battle.
Unions management at all levels from park, semi professional, national level is in poor shape and poorly managed to a large degree. AFL has excellent management and will destory you if league falls over and whats left football will pick up.
RL has protected RU from the AFL. Now for the league people in the modern world with the loss of players if you don’t merge you are dead in the water within ten years at a national level as all your best players will leave.
Robbo said | August 16th 2009 @ 10:34am | Report comment
One year later – NRL crowds are growing and A-League crowds are shrinking!
Jameswm said | July 30th 2008 @ 11:04am | Report comment
Sorry I can’t buy those baseless assertions midfielder. How will league fans head to soccer?
I have a son in a junior rugby comp and it run well and hugely supported in the area. We’re turning people to other clubs because of the high interest. Other areas can report the same thing.
True Tah said | July 30th 2008 @ 11:16am | Report comment
Midfielder,
I dont necessarily agree that union management from park to national is all poorly managed.
Having been involved in admin for a subbies club, there is a hell of a lot of work involved in what goes on, and it is all run by amateurs. This hard work has seen our senior club go from a position where were struggling to field 3 teams and looking at relegation to where most saturdays we have enough players for five teams, and we are not along in our comp either. Our junior section has exploded where we now have over 400 players from u10s to u16s, we now have to schedule games from friday night through to sunday.
This involves getting sponsors on board, running a canteen, dealing with judiciary issues, player registration fees, etc.
I dont know how this compares to soccer at park level which is what I assume you are comparing it to, but one of my mates you used to play rugby and went to soccer said that basically in soccer all you do is turn up for an hour on the weekend, kick it around, you dont have a few beers with the other team and rarely with your team mates, he said they don’t run a canteen. Now I don’t know if this is the case for other soccer clubs, but he said the social side of rugby/the camaderie is a lot better.
The problems with management at the professional level are well documented, and is indeed poor. Im not 100% sure about semi-pro (i.e. grade rugby). JON is a pretty good manager, and thats why Lowy hired him to run soccer in Oz, and he did a pretty good job, and thankfully he’s back in rugby at the top…I just hope his influence pervades down to provincial levels.
Captain Carnage said | July 30th 2008 @ 11:29am | Report comment
And after the NRL, Union can take over AFL, the A-League, then the world mwha ha ha ha (Dr. Evil evil laugh)…!
Cros said | July 30th 2008 @ 11:39am | Report comment
Well said Alex & Jimbo
My Father once said ” Live and let live” . Both Rugby and League have their own culture and the games are about as different as AFL is to Soccer. (try explaining that to AFL types!) Merging would never work, although there will always be players that can cross the divide. Putting another’s sport down is not a sport I care for. Any game will survive on it’s merits, or it won’t.
Redb said | July 30th 2008 @ 11:40am | Report comment
Captain,
They could call it the “Alan Parsons Project”.
Redb
PaulMC said | July 30th 2008 @ 11:47am | Report comment
Left Arm S
I more or less agree – I always thought the Super League fiasco was more or less a Murdoch Media plot.
It was in essence RM vs KP but RM had the TV rights to Rugby in Europe & wanted to expand.
It is business – from the player level to the mogul level – and the “best deal” will eventually bubble to the surface
jimbo said | July 30th 2008 @ 12:08pm | Report comment
The best deals aren’t always what they appear to be.
Look what’s happening to the financial markets after the sub-prime mortgage bubble burst. Over-committing to attract people needs to be sustained in the long run or you crash heavily.
When you start offering 2M for Carter and 1.5M for an untried League player the others start asking for more too.
Ivan Henjak defected to Toulon after being banned by the Force and is already grumbling about how much he is being paid compared to Money Bill.
Captain Carnage, RU isn’t taking over the sporting world, personal greed is.
WHAA HAA HAA!
True Tah said | July 30th 2008 @ 12:22pm | Report comment
jimbo,
jesus Ivan Henjak thats one of the biggest comebacks ever heard of!
Big Kev said | July 30th 2008 @ 12:25pm | Report comment
guys, whatever you think of either sport there will never be a merger for the simple reason that RU will not change a single rule to accomodate RL. Not one. Can you imagine SA, NZ, Argentina, France etc voting to change laws so Aus can get stronger. Realistically only Aus and England will benefit and the RFU would not be interested so believe me, JON does not have the pulling power to make it happen.
Clubs might switch but the games will remain separate forever – they are too different and RL, even if it means becoming a semi pro suburban comp, will never simply become rugby. why would they!
jimbo said | July 30th 2008 @ 12:31pm | Report comment
True Tah,
even in his forties Ivan is a better RU player than his younger cousin Matt.
True Tah said | July 30th 2008 @ 12:36pm | Report comment
Matt Henjak should thank his lucky stars he is paid to pay a professional sport, and that he is lucky enough to have Tana Umaga as his coach, and the likes of Collins and SBW as his team mates, rather than whinge that Daniel Carter (one of the best players in world rugby) is getting paid a lot more than he is, and for a differant team.
After what happened at the Force, Matt is lucky he’s playing professional rugby at all!
Big Kev said | July 30th 2008 @ 12:41pm | Report comment
I think he is Ivan Henjaks son, no?
Justin said | July 30th 2008 @ 12:53pm | Report comment
Nephew possibly?
LeftArmSpinner said | July 30th 2008 @ 1:30pm | Report comment
The management of local sport, in the main, is very good. The vast majority are genuinely there for the kids. There are some nutters, but most are great, albeit amateur.
Rugby at S14 level, and in particular at Tahs, Reds and Force (as regards discipline) has been very poor.
At ARU level, JON is doing an excellent job. You don’t have to like him but he is very good at his job. To their credit, ARU saw the error of their ways and brought him back. Factions continue to create problems at S14, ARU and IRB level. They need to be addressed.
JON has an easier job than Gallop.
Gallop has done a very good PR/spokesman job. He is not driving the ship in any way. League is built on a faction ARL/News. The clubs prove regularly that they cant see past their own self interest.
It is not a matter of the successful codes jumping on the weakened one, league supporters are bleating too. Just listen to shrill Gould or any of the other commentators. Then former players, like Matt Adamson (on 2UE last night) talking of a combined UK Super league NRL comp, played half a season in each location.
Breathtakingly desperate and illconsidered. Honest, knowledgeable commentators such as J Gibbs or Alexander or Roy Masters were more balanced and gave good insight. They too are looking for a solution to retain league in its current position.
A simple, pain-free solution just doesn’t exist.
Not unlike in 1995, when, on its knees, ARU embraced professionalism, the market will dictate situations and the parties need to respond.
Gruffalo said | July 30th 2008 @ 2:02pm | Report comment
Couple of points;
1. While rugy union exists, there is an opportunity for fat blokes to play on the international stage. They are not restricted to darts.
2. The NRL is a Murdoch plaything, run by his lackeys where the real strength (its traditional suburban clubs) have been destroyed or made over. Until News Limited is thrown out, rugby league will wither away and become a marginal option for those who still struggle with the concept of AFL.
mudskipper said | July 30th 2008 @ 3:12pm | Report comment
Rugby doesn’t need League…
Its culture or management style…
Let them fall…Let them fail…
Watch the ever growing game of World Rugby…
Young players will be absorbed by Rugby…
And channel Nine will pay to show it…
Rugby doesn’t need League…
Rugby is a true world game…
Midfielder said | July 30th 2008 @ 3:51pm | Report comment
Lefty
I cannot disagree with you more on the management of junion uniors at perk level. The affect of private schools on the local park comps hurts union badley, how do I know because I have spent the last 12 years with a son in park rugby. The lack of any real growth in WS, Newcastle Hunter, and Central Coast …………. by growth I mean compare player numbers in the 70″s with population in these areas and compare to players numbers and population today. Do not confuse good behaviour and good hearted officials with an expanding junior program capable of providing the quality players you need to expand the game and actually to keep the current four S14 teams.
As someone else has said on this site union has very few development officers in Sydney and as a code as reported in a seperate thread a tad over 66, 000 players Australia wide. Good luck keeping your grounds as the AFL spending big and needing grounds will just love these figures.
If league falls over today AFL get the ovals and football gets the rectanglular parks ……….. football has said the only way to build football is through the A-League national comp. Internaltional Socceroo matches assist in the development of football national comp. You see like the AFL football understands you need a national comp with tribal suppoters to build a sustainable future national comp.
Having played semi professional league, and rugby at a decent level, and football, I cannot understand how the two codes cannot work together. Given I played both as a half, TBH apart from props I saw it via playing it is a very similar game on same fields with the same markings.
However as a football person if you both want to go to war ……… then please do. Football and AFL will be the winners
Midfielder said | July 30th 2008 @ 3:53pm | Report comment
Gruffalo
Its time the NRL clubs got some balls. They need to F off News and all register under a new brand so the funds being paid to league go to the clubs.
jimbo said | July 30th 2008 @ 4:18pm | Report comment
Midfielder,
huge conflict of interest between the Murdoch Media and ownership of RL.
It cost them hundreds of millions when negotiating television and media rights.
On the one hand the major owner of RL in this country wants to give the NRL as little as possible for its media rights and Gallop lost out compared to AFL.
The NRL centric bias of the Murdoch media is also turning people off RL, rather than attracting them to it like bees to honey.
Not sure if the chain can be broken, but a lot of focus on RL at the moment and how it is being run, which is not a bad thing. The RU people went through it the last 12 months and they seem to be better for it.
TembaVJ said | July 30th 2008 @ 4:26pm | Report comment
That was beautiful Skip… I had a tear in my eye….
True Tah said | July 30th 2008 @ 4:35pm | Report comment
Midfielder,
I think you are confusing the management of junior club rugby with the stubborness of certain private schools in having their games on saturdays.
The optimal solution would be for school rugby to play during the week on a thursday or friday afternoon…I didnt go to a school which offered rugby, but we played soccer and league on thursday afternoons…students would be able to play whatever club or sport they wanted to on weekends.
There are a lot of issues in private school rugby as it is – IMO they should consider merging ISA, GPS and CAS and have a P & R comp, as having Kings dish out 100-nil scorelines against Grammar and Kings doesn’t help anybody…better still merge the comp with the public high schools and arrange it into a district basis.
Re: league and rugby at war, this has been going on for ages, you are always going to get the likes of Gus Gould and Gordan Tallis talking down rugby at every opportunity they get.
One of rugby’s worst mistakes was putting Gary Flowers as head of ARU after sacking JON…he seemed like a nice bloke, but no real idea of what the marketplace wanted…I dont like to put lawyers down, but from my experiences, lawyers are not the best people to run commercially minded organistions, nor are they partially good at managing large numbers of people.
One Wise man said | July 30th 2008 @ 4:46pm | Report comment
Redb
If you watch channel 7 at about 5.30 pm on saturday you will see rugby union on free to air.
And if you had watched channel 10 last November you would have seen it as well.
The only reason S14 is not on free to air is because the free to air guys wouldn’t pay fox enough money to show it. Not that they didn’t want it. Until 4years ago they were happy to replay it.
The Free to air guys are so scared of League being wiped out and their investment going down the drain they pretend that it doesn’t exist and give it very little coverage.
How do you compare a sport that is played in 110 countries around the world with a game that is played in just 4 or 5. The world cup for rugby league is made up of 3 teams from Australia, England and New Zealand and a bunch of guys who play and live ( also born ) in those 3 countries who have some ancesory back to other countries so they form a team from another country.
A team from Lebanon what a joke nobody who lives in Lebanon who hadn’t been to Australia would know what Rugby league was.
Redb can you read? If you can you would note that the newspapers have as much coverage of Union during normal week days as League.
BTW League began by Rugby Union players being paid to play Rugby Union.
Michael C said | July 30th 2008 @ 5:00pm | Report comment
One Wise Man -
(while not trying to answer on behalf of Redb, I find myself in the main doing so!!)
I’m from Victoria, we don’t get the Wallabies until after midnight. And, far, less likely to see much of them as the Olympics kick off.
Personally, I would be on Ch.10 with the footy anyway, but, if the Wallabies WERE on ‘live’ on Ch.7, I’d flick over during the ads.
Super 14 not on FTA – - probably also the fact that, like soccer via the HAL, 1 team 1 state doesn’t work that flash without a central hub key market. RU doesn’t really have a super strong central hub market. The AFL has Vic, and SA and WA are relatively very strong. RL has NSw and QLD. RU…..the Super 14 format just doesn’t really work, for a host of reasons – for FTA. But – - it’s nice to believe in conspiracy theories – - but Super 14s are ideal PayTV fodder.
btw – I agree how farcical the RL WC is, players playing on the basis of parentage or ex-pats etc, it’s a bit of a stretch to call it a ‘World Cup’. In many of the ‘nations’ where they can boast…oh, a couple of hundred school kids or the like, in the main it still seems to be that RL starts up where RU existed – - seems a little parasitc, although, there’ll be a few RL evangelists who will argue specific examples….perhaps somewhere in Russia.
sheek said | July 30th 2008 @ 5:46pm | Report comment
LeftArmSpinner,
Like both your posts. I was going to contribute but the last sentence of your first post kinda nailed it on the head. No need for me to say anything this time.
LeftArmSpinner said | July 30th 2008 @ 5:51pm | Report comment
geez, Sheek, dont tell me I have silenced the great Sheek!!!! Only kidding. Silence would kill all the fun!!! I note that you added “this time.”
Even Michael Hagan, Parramatta coach, was on the TV tonight saying that he saw RL as likely to become a feeder system for other codes.
joeb said | July 30th 2008 @ 5:54pm | Report comment
Rugby league will survive regardless how many more current leaguies defect. Eg., there’s talk Inglis and Folau may be next with Mason considering, and Karmichael Hunt talking to the ARU. So what? If they go, good luck to them. Ricky Stewart made a valid point: should these defectors/mercenaries later come crawling back (very likely), ban them for two years. One year would probably suffice.
Looking forward to the Rugby League World Cup. (It would be a top show if only HQ would reintroduce ‘contested scrums’ as in union.)
Midfielder said | July 30th 2008 @ 5:57pm | Report comment
TT
My post had two issues, first the private school thing, that it is still a problem reflects the poor management especially when as you point out the solution is somewhat easy. Second union has not grown the game were the kids are in WS, Newcastle Hunter, and Central Coast the union player numbers are so poor union is will struugle to maintain the playing standards with existing four S 14 teams, to expand the team numbers and maintain the quality will be difficult. Also if union lost a number of players to NH codes then replacing them will be difficult and pre mentioned standards will become impossible.
Westy said | July 30th 2008 @ 6:10pm | Report comment
As Deans himself has stated it is difficult for any realist to deny league and rugby has common skill sets.
I have made it my business to look at junior rugby upto U/13 and league’s junior mini and mod skills . League’s mini and mod competitions are better than our basic skill programs. They are full contact with strict rules for below chest tackles and on small fields. with official paid referees. Our one off stste championships and district representative side competitions are behind League’s Harold Mathews U/16; SG BALL U?18 and Toyota Cup U/20 competitions. Now I believe it has been the superior resources not available and still not available to junior rubgy that league has historically invested in its junior ranks that makes the difference .
This may change over time . But it means rugby making a concerted effort to invest its new money in junior development not the top end of town. Some rugby people on this site are into short term fixes and unaware of how little of the rugby pie is directed to junior development. Seriously importing Georgian props ?St. Marys has nearly 40 junior league teams with little to no registration fees; Hills Bulls about 35 ; Wentworthville about 35………….we would not know where to put them . In terms of junior development we are at least a decade or more behind league. Be happy bottom rung of ladder may now be top rung but be very careful in assessing our junior position. Rugby at a junior level from personal experience is under severe pressure to hold our grounds and league is not the predator.
Redb said | July 30th 2008 @ 8:05pm | Report comment
One Wise Man,
I can read and last time I read the TV Guide I didnt see the Super 14 on free to air anywhere in Australia and in fact nor was the Wallabies test on free to air live in Victoria.
I’m not a rugby league fan so save your ammo.
Redb
Midfielder said | July 30th 2008 @ 8:36pm | Report comment
One Wise man
For mercy sake did you watch the last RWC, ………… there are maybe 12 at best nations that can claim to have a reasonable team………… 110 rugby nations playing rugby ……… and then you slag out leagues WC.
Yes RU is HugEEEEEEEE compared to league on an international scale. ……….. remember NZ with 4 million population is the world best, Australia 66, 000 players, SA about 2 million Boers support, Europe, Japan, South Amercia not anywhere near the top code.
So I accept your arguements but use real not hyped figures, and one day sit down and to help grow union, go and copy the AFL handbook of code management ( I don’t mind saying football has) then you will see things a tad differently.
Jameswm said | July 30th 2008 @ 9:24pm | Report comment
Can someone explain to me how private school rugby is bad for rugby overall?
At junior level there is both club and school rugby, and some kids (like mine) play both. Both are well run, though they have their differences.
School rugby is a huge part of the game, as is club junior rugby.
The private schools formed the historical power base of the development of the game, but the clubs now play a significant part and the schools acknowledge and embrace this. Hence why half my son’s school year will hopefully be playing club rugby next year, parental consent permitting.
Mr Mac said | July 30th 2008 @ 10:20pm | Report comment
It is interesting to consider (in NSW) the issue of public vs private schools & the suggested drift of students.
If one looks at the Rugby results in the SMH on a Sunday – a few years ago there was GPS & CAS. Those two groups are static but the CAS has grown from virtually nothing to the largest entry with this year two divisions and schools from the Central Coast to Orange.
Is it status or what?
Daniel said | July 30th 2008 @ 11:21pm | Report comment
A textbook bit of (deliberately?) inaccurate drivel from Garth. Was he using ‘Anti-RL Rant for Windows’? He ticked most of the boxes required for a chippy RU fan, apart from the hilariously far-fetched (and long since disproved) ‘3 billion viewers’ figure for the RUWC, which was later supplied by Mungo.
Union and League merge? That won’t work – it would lose the income from millions of spectators and viewers, who will go off and watch a new and independent Rugby League, risen phoenix-like from the ashes.
What RU fans don’t seem to understand is that we watch Rugby League because we enjoy watching, er, Rugby League. Rugby Union fans? Likewise. Not a difficult concept to grasp, is it? Rugby League fans find the 15-man code slow, negative, stop-start, short of skill, dominated by the boot and featuring less than forty minutes-worth of play per match. RU fans have their own objections to our code, and the opposition to the League-like aspects of the ELVs has been fierce, especially in the Northern hemisphere.
If Rugby League has managed to thrive for over a century, despite the appalling calibre of our administrators, I can’t see it rejoining the other code at any point. Rugby League continues to grow, despite itself, and the loss of a handful of big names should be weighed against the ever-increasing growth of spectator numbers, TV viewing figures, players, new territories and new nations.
Garth also has the standard go at Rugby League for having plundered Union talent for years and crows about the boot being on the other foot. The fact is that anyone who played Rugby League (at any level) got an automatic life ban from Rugby Union, which explains why the traffic was one-way until 1996. RU had only itself to blame, pretending that it was all about ‘professionalism’. Which doesn’t explain why amateur RL players were also banned, and you could ‘earn’ more money at the top level of Union anyway.
Gasnier left because certain stipulations in his contract hadn’t been met. It was all thrashed out between him and St George-Illawarra. He’s been honest about following the money offered by a team that is merely a rich sugardaddy’s plaything. Judas Chicken Williams ran away from his responsibilities, his teammates and his fans. His is a very different situation from all previous ones, and I hope he will be punished for it.
Sammy said | July 30th 2008 @ 11:23pm | Report comment
So David Gilbank wants to talk about Netball
Last night Bulldogs versus ST george (apparently 2 well established clubs and ‘big’ support base in a minor sport called league 7822 turn up in an 80000 stadium
Next door the Netball match and over 12000 turn up maybe the stronger sport of Netball is taking over League!!!!!!
JimC said | July 31st 2008 @ 2:29am | Report comment
Garth – this article is just a union fans fantasy. It makes no more sense than the gibberish the shameless Michael Cockerill has written in the SMH.
Basically “I hate rugby league so i’ll contruct 500 words to persuade myself that its ‘dying’ or ‘in crisis’ etc etc.” A triumph of hope over experience if ever their was one. Terrible journalism. Daivd Kirk and Fairfax should be ashamed.
Never mind the opinions of those of us who actually like rugby league. We don’t count.
I think Gallop’s doing a good job defending the salary cap. I don’t want to pay $100 to watch average players getting paid millions. Anyone who does needs their head examined. Let these clowns go and play korfball or NFL or whatever they like. RL will survive and thrive without them.
The Answer said | July 31st 2008 @ 3:57am | Report comment
George Piggins couldn’t stand Souths moving out of Redfern, I wonder what he and the Burrow make of Garth’s plan for South to move to Union.
Pigs (or should it read Piggins) might fly.
joeb said | July 31st 2008 @ 4:35am | Report comment
“George Piggins couldn’t stand Souths moving out of Redfern,”
Recently he was in favour of moving the Rabbitohs lock stock and barrel up to Gosford in some deal with Dingo to use Blue Tongue Stadium as their home ground — Singo I should say.
But Russ fortunately saved the day, though Holmes-a-court didn’t and wouldn’t.
True Tah said | July 31st 2008 @ 9:02am | Report comment
Midfielder,
there are more than two million “Boers” (Afrikaaners is the more preferred term) in South Africa, plus I think you will find a lot of South Africans of English extraction and those previously termed coloured (Bruin Afrikaaners) have rugby as their top sport.
Regarding juniors in regional NSW and WS, I am banking on rugby union being in a far stronger financial position than it was last year, and with JON at the helm, I have a feeling he will do something about this. NSW Rugby should be cashed up following the success of the Tahs, the ARU will be cashed up following the Bledisloe and the Honkers Games.
I would have junior rugby on the agenda and it has been a weakness in terms of resources allocated to it, but with a bloke like Deans involved, Im sure he would make these sort of comments.
Recidivist said | July 31st 2008 @ 9:15am | Report comment
R.I.P. Rugby League 1908- 2024
League is on its way out. David Gallop doesn’t have a plan, the senior players want out and the sponsors don’t come up with much money.
League has been in a lucky position for 90 years with a strong playing base in Australia with a unique working class support base. Unfortunately, that has all changed and Rugby Union players are now getting paid. For years, League raided Union (even the ‘King’ was a union player) but now people who prefer the variety in Union can stay in the game.
The real shame is that in League the defense is now so tight that there is a greater chance (50/50) of getting a try through a kick than running the ball. League is a tough game until the play gets into the last 15-20 metres when it becomes some sort of amalgamation of soccer/AFL with a kick along the ground or up in the air!!
The hope is that Union can grow and take some of the talent that is wasted in league areas. Union has greater scope for people with varying body shapes rather than League guys who are all pretty similar.
But most important of all is to remember that each is just a GAME. It is fun to watch but it is more fun to watch kids just playing a game of ‘footy’ and enjoying themselves, whatever the code.
Midfielder said | July 31st 2008 @ 9:22am | Report comment
TT
Maybe I went in a bit hard on the wise one, but I cannot stand people who grab crazy figures and quote them as if they mean something, which they don’t. The 112 countries who play rugby union, that just pisses me off. Yes 112 countries play but outside thr top 12 maybe 16 countries it could hardley be called a major sport.
True Tah said | July 31st 2008 @ 9:38am | Report comment
No probs Midfielder,
I dont believe there are 112 countries who play rugby anyway, in most cases it might just be a couple of expats running around. In others there might be amateur leagues.
In terms of where it could be classified as major, I guess this would be in the following – NZ, SA, Wales, Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, England, Ireland, France, Australia, Georgia, Argentina, Madagascar, Italy, Scotland, Cook Islands, Sri Lanka
Places like Japan, US, Canada have a decent number of players and/or a pro comp, but rugby never commands any media attention, or is watched by a significant number of the population.
In Chile, Germany or Spain for instance, they have a number of regional leagues throughout their countries, in no ways would it be called a major sport, but they do play the game there. Internationally they are not a strong nation at all. Should Chile, Germany and Spain be classified as nations which play rugby?
LeftArmSpinner said | July 31st 2008 @ 10:08am | Report comment
Interesting and very telling figures from a sports academic Braham Dabscheck in the SMH today: The average salary in union is now $224,000 compared to $164,000 in league. League players play more games ina season, exacerbating the situation further. And the gap is widening!
“The average annual salary for the top 25 players at NRL clubs this year will be $164,000, down on the average of $226,000 paid by the top five clubs in 1999, according to research by Braham Dabscheck, a University of Melbourne academic who has been analysing professional team sports for three decades.
Dabscheck argues elite league players have been forced to wear a pay cut of 27 per cent – while their competitors in rugby union have reaped a rich harvest from the advent of the professional game, with their salaries jumping from $124,000 to $224,000 in the same period, an increase 81 per cent.”
As for the King, we would not have made the same splash in Union because he happened to be around in the same vintage as the Ella’s. He was reserve in the famous Schoolboy team of 1977(?? or ‘78??)
LeftArmSpinner said | July 31st 2008 @ 10:13am | Report comment
midfielder, Sure Rugby doesnt have the depth that football has globally. But there are only a few who can really win the football WC. But, the issue for football is different. Diving and all the girly stuff has to stop. Even more important, the crowds are a dangerous place to be. I speak from first hand experience of assault, in the Members enclosure at SFS. The perpetrator could have been a rugby league player!!!
Recidivist said | July 31st 2008 @ 10:22am | Report comment
Pitting advertising dollars, salaries and serious contendership for the world cup forward as the key arguments misses the point!
Whether you are playing Union here in Sydney or in some park in Bangkok or Ho Chi Minh city, for most of us it is about playing a fun game. Expats help spread the game but when it comes to representing your country the rules still apply. I have a mate in Laos who has to wait 3 years to represent them even though they are about 140 positions down the ladder in terms of getting to the world cup!
I’ve played old boys rugby (over 35’s rather than schools) in the UK for the FUN of it. Seeing old guys still pack down for a proper scrum when they are over 50 just because they like the game and enjoy a few beers afterwards is great.
The two games are totally different. The way you tackle in league is all about total destruction, in Union you are more concerned with securing the ball than killing someone. For this reason, internationally there is far more appeal in Union than League.
Midfielder said | July 31st 2008 @ 10:27am | Report comment
Lefty
Diving girly stuff ……. crowds are a dangerous place to be……….. only a few can win the WC ……… give me a break.
This is a merger thread of union and league, so lets keep away from the my sport is better than yours on this site. I have never to date and hopefully into the future resisted talking about the world game in player number, nations that play, TV audiences world wide…….Why because however big football may be around the world in Australia it is not ………. and being big in the world does little for me if in Australia it does not live up to its true potential hopefully under Frank Lowy football may delivery its promise. But lets keep away from my sport is bigger than yours talk at least on these types of threads.
LeftArmSpinner said | July 31st 2008 @ 10:29am | Report comment
jimc,
John Gibbs, Greg Alexander, Roy Masters, Gould and many more don’t agree with you. It is death by a thousand cuts, much of it due to strategic mistakes, by definition at management level, made over the past 30 years and the coming to fruition of business fundamentals.
Jameswm said | July 31st 2008 @ 10:31am | Report comment
LAS
Wally Lewis actually broke his arm before that 1977 schoolboys tour, so we can’t say if he would have started. It cetrtainly wouldn’t have been at 10. I think Tony Melrose started at 12 and Gary Ella at 13, so it certainly would have been tough to get a start!
Jameswm said | July 31st 2008 @ 10:32am | Report comment
I meant to add…
the team was so strong, Mike Hawker was shunted to the wing!
Mr Mac said | July 31st 2008 @ 10:44am | Report comment
Recidivist
I would go even further – since league has removed the contest for the ball the game has become more physical – the tackle is the focus – the ball only a target marker. This is the reason for the fuss about wrestling.
Big Kev said | July 31st 2008 @ 11:02am | Report comment
True Tah, I disagree. Places like Namibia, Zimbabwe, Spain, Romania and many others have a passionate rugby following and club infrstructure.
Midfielder – your statement comparing the “Union is played in 110 countries” to the RL World Cup is laughable. The teams from minor RU nations like Zimbabwe, Namibia, Georgia, Romania, Canada, USA, Pacific Islands, Japan etc are made up primarily of players who are born and bread in those countries. Not players from the top teams who are not good enough to play fro their own countries so get to play for the country in which their grandparent was born!
And some of the top players from those countries play professionally in leagues around the world – there are players from Ivory Coast, Georgia, Canada, USA playing in Europe and there are Islanders playing throughout Aus and NZ plus Zimbabweans and Namibian play in SA.
RU may not be the major sport in those countries but is an organised sport with a club infrastructure and they all compete in Sevens tournaments around the world on an anuual basis plus other regional XVs competitions.
You cannot compare this to RL. Yes it is not football (and by the way that stat about only a handful of countries being able to win the Football WC is nonsense. Yes only a few countries have actually won it, but there have been close to 20 semifinalists and if you got down to quaterfinalists it is way higher and any of these teams are good enough to win a quater, semi and final.
And finally, take note that 1 of the “minor” rugby nations, the USA, has approximately 3,000 rugby clubs! I would hazard a guess that that is probably 3 x more than RL clubs on the planet. I recall reading a stat that there are over 10,000 rugby clubs world wide!
Dont make me laugh comparing it to RL.
LeftArmSpinner said | July 31st 2008 @ 11:18am | Report comment
The “minnows”, and I hate that term but no time for another, are funded by the IRB and in turn the RWC etc. That’s the fundamental difference. Just look at the IRB money in sevens and Pacific nations cup. vey successful.
Midfielder said | July 31st 2008 @ 11:57am | Report comment
Big Kev
You miss my point on the 112 nations . I do not question how much those that play support rugby nor does league as I have said before have a international presence or little at best. My point was simply in the context that the 112 nations was used by a previous poster it was a total overstatement.
Big Kev said | July 31st 2008 @ 12:41pm | Report comment
if you look on the irb website, you can look at registered player numbers for each country. Presumably these are accurate figures supplied by each country.
As an example, Zimbabwe has 55,000 registered players. There are probably only 2 countries in the world (England and Aus) where RL has more! Namibia has over 10,000, Kenya 20,000, Japan has 126,000, Sri Lanka 90,000, Spain 17,000, Chile 17,000, USA 63,000. Most of the numbers are teen males.
stillmissit said | July 31st 2008 @ 1:06pm | Report comment
Hi All – I have a mate who played league for Bulldogs not in first grade but has been a Bulldogs supporter for ever. He strongly believes the two codes will never join.
He has asked me to pass on his thought that David Gallop really missed a great opportunity for the leagues clubs with the SBW thing. Gallop should have accepted that he was gone and come out in the media saying ‘Look what can happen all you youngsters out there, you could find yourself earning $1m a year by playing RL’. My mate reckons you would have a flood of youngsters signing up. I belileve that youngsters are travelling more than ever and have little regard for contracts and their playing mates, all their mates are in electronic contact so they dont need club mates as we did in the past.
You cant stop change, so why not embrace it.
Similar thing of fighting change may happen in the years to come between Union and League, at the moment forget it and get on with what both codes are up to. We both have enough issues without adding this one.
Jerry said | July 31st 2008 @ 1:20pm | Report comment
Big Kev – the figures on the IRB website are notoriously inaccurate, or at least very inconsistent. I’d take those figuers with a grain of salt.
Peter K said | July 31st 2008 @ 1:25pm | Report comment
I agree the codes will never join.
Top 25 players average 164K. This is less than 2 players per team.
So the majority are lucky to be paid 100K.
However if Rugby keeps expanding via S14-S22 , plus the European money on offer this means all the majority of good footballers will move to take their pay from the 100K to 300K, and the 170K people to 600K.
Longer term this means league will at best revert to semi amateur because with this pay differential more and more juniors will start playing rugby over league. This means more interest and then the sponsorship dollars go over as well.
Skip said | July 31st 2008 @ 1:38pm | Report comment
All,
Love or loath JON you would agree he is a very smart man. He offered David Gallop an Olive Branch a few weeks ago saying that the NRL and ARU should work more together. This is an opportunity Gallop should have grabed with both hands.
In a short period of time due to the ELVs and Deans we have seen rugby gain back some of its appeal and audience. Last weeks match may have even sparked interest with league viewers. Rugby has an extremley exciting future. The IRB are very enthusiastic about growing the game and I beleive bank roll SANZAR in doing so. A Pacific Island side will enter the S1X by 2010. I would assume this team will be based in Western Sydney as there is a large Islander community to tap into allowing the 5th Aust franchise to go to Melbourne. Perhaps the ACT Brumbies may become the southern Brumbies playing out of Canberra and Melbourne and a central or gold coast team admitted.
Japan and the USA will be admitted however they will be allowed foreign players. This is Leagues big threat. The money these franchises will have at thier disposal will be massive and will put more pressure on the player market. Lets be honest Australian Rugby doesnt have the players to support a 5th side let alone if players start heading to Japan and USA. These franchises will look at the NRL.
Any smart NRL CEO will know this and at least be investigating putting thier toe in the water.
As JON said not all the codes can survive in this market place. JON is growing the Rugby Union market place.
True Tah said | July 31st 2008 @ 2:01pm | Report comment
Big Kev,
Ive been told that in PNG there are a couple of hundred thousand league players.
Skip,
I agree that Im far more optimistic about rugby now than I was a year ago. JON on board and Deans as coach, I believe this will permeate down to the provincial level. NSW will be the real issue, as I think there have been real issues about management here for too long.
I dont agree that USA and Japan should be involved in a franchise in Super Rugby, I would rather focus on our own backyard before that…also the Brumbies should not be forced to leave Canberra.
The IRB should not be funding Australian rugby or SANZAR, in fact I dont believe the IRB should be giving grants to any of the traditional nations which have professional comps – it should be in developing nations. Rugby is not an easy sport to export, unlike say soccer, because it has a lot of rules (hopefully the ELVs need this) and more players per team are required.
the IRB should be focusing on the Georgias, the Madagascars, the Zimbabwes of the world, if Mugabe goes soon, I hope the IRB is into Zim ASAP, they have provided some talented players who end up playing elsewhere – Mujati, Beast and Chavhanga (SA) and Ngwenye (US).
Towser said | July 31st 2008 @ 2:40pm | Report comment
True Tah
You asked me a couple of days ago a couple of questions about Football attendances and Asians playing football in England.
As I currently find you here I will answer them.
Others may ignore what I say as it is not on subject.
Firstly attendances answered by the following quote:-
“The war years saw football continue in Britain on a regional basis, but there was no substitute for League fare. As the hostilities ended and the English League programme restarted, the British public returned in their thousands. The 1948-49 season saw crowds at record levels, an aggregate figure of 41,271,424 that has never been surpassed – and with new all-seater stadia, never will. ”
This also applied to Rugby League I believe.
Secondly Asians I will answer this by illustration rather than opinion.
After the second World War two groups arrived in England from the Commonwealth countries for work Asians & West Indians.
The Asians being mainly from the sub-continent were either Muslims or Hindus. The West indians Christians. A major factor in acceptance. But not only that West Indians “wen t’pub un supped wit lads” Pakistanis & Indians did not. In working class societies like Sheffield this was also a major factor in integrating into the community. Also & on a regular basis the local paper reported stabbings amongst the Asian workers in the steelworks. Knifes were foreign in those days as a means of settling differences in England(seems not the case anymore-in London at least). The West Indian lad was more likely to use the local method of sticking the nut on you to settle a difference. Hence he could also then play football with you. He seemed like you despite his colour.
I would have thought after 40 years in Australia that slowly things would change. But after several visits to Sheffield over the years, the last just 3 years ago this is not the case.
Lets take a typical tour of present day Sheffield with a local in a car. We note the areas where the steelworks were now shopping centres, light industries ,leisure centres etc. All well & good I begin to feel this is the new Sheffield the old ideas & values swept away by modern metal & plastic. Then we pass a youth club. “Pakis run it nar,council gev it tu um,ar lads get nowt Paki *****”.
Then we get to a district that was middle class when I was a lad.
” iy Pakis ownt ‘lot nar , bring int relatives from ore yonder un sleep 10 in er bed,3 shifts er neet. Tha wunt wunu no wat theh eight”
I then realised why when I asked the same question you did why Asians are not into football. Nothing has changed.
I wont repeat pub talk about Asians definitely not for the faint hearted.
Just north of Sheffield is Bradford home to a massive Asian immigrant population. Certainly as far as football goes I haven’t heard of any Asian background footballers from there , but that would also apply to Rugby league in Bradford I should imagine(League fans would know).
True Tah said | July 31st 2008 @ 3:02pm | Report comment
Towser,
thanks for explaining that, the post-war attendance figures are very impressive, I think league was getting arond 10million or so per season.
I knew a lot of young men of African/West Indian descent have played soccer for England, rugby league (Ellery Hanley – first black man to captain GB in any sport, Martin Offiah) cricket (Devon Malcolm, Alex Tudor, Dean Headley) and lately rugby union (Victor Ubogu, Adebayo Adedayo, Paul Sackey, Jeremy Guscott).
I have heard of an Asian league player, his name is Ikram Butt, but I dont believe he played at the highest level. There are plenty of Asian cricketer (e.g Nasser Hussain), but never heard of any rugby players.
Skip said | July 31st 2008 @ 3:25pm | Report comment
True Tah,
I agree that the IRB shouldnt “find” the big boys what I was suggesting was that the IRB will help establish Pac Nations, Japan and USA. I disagree that Super Rugby shouldnt expand into Japan and the USA. If Rugby is to survive in the SH then these to countries need to be involved ASAP. Australia, NZ and SA do not have the corporate dollars to compete with Europe. The entry into these countries also make rugby more appealing to broadcasters ie NEWS as it will have a larger audience.
News ltd must be in a real quandary at the moment as it has 2 codes canabilising each other in a small market place. I honestly beleive only 1 code will survive at this stage you would say RL has the audience RU has the potential growth.
True Tah said | July 31st 2008 @ 3:36pm | Report comment
Skip,
RL has a lot going for in terms of the tribal support for its teams…however, long term this is an impediment as the support is for their team as opposed to the game – no other code has expanded and then contracted like RL did with the Western Reds, the Adelaide Rams and the South Qld Crushers. The ARU will not consider letting the Force go. A lot of NRL supporters would walk away from the sport if their team was relegated or kicked out.
RU has a lot more potential for growth, the real issue for me is that recently in many countries rugby has grown a lot, but this has not been the case in Australia.
Ultimately I think RL should take a leaf out of the ESL’s book – it is a regional sport which attracts fantastic support and is financially secure in its part of the UK despite the giant of English soccer dominating the sporting world of England.
This is what Brad Fittler is suggesting re: teams in Central Coast, Coffs Harbour and Sunshine Coast.
Millster said | July 31st 2008 @ 5:02pm | Report comment
TT – “Brumbies forced to leave Canberra”????????? WTF??????
Though not a full-on RU fan, my 7 years in the capital did make the Brumbies my team, after a couple of dozen nights of chatteringteeth at Bruce Stadium. If they move – and I presume it would be to Melbourne – I would have no choice but to ditch them for Waratahs (whom I have no real excuse not to be supporting now anyway given their home ground is less than 15mins walk from my front door)….
One Wise man said | July 31st 2008 @ 5:45pm | Report comment
Redb and Michael C,
I lived in Melbourne for 6 months and understand your frustrations at living in a place where the weather and every other thing is so bloody miserable you just want to shoot yourself or take the other option and watch Aussie Rules.
Which isn’t really Football at all because you claim it is 150 years old and even soccer true football in every sense of the word isn’t quite that old officially. (look it up 1860’s first offical rules)
Lets face facts Melbourne is known for shopping and sipping latte’s both of which girls and gays like to do. Then there is AFL with men wearing tight very short shorts not sure which of the two groups girls or gays play this game but not me.
Anyway Michael C, Redb made the statement that Union was not on free to air he said nothing and nor did I about delayed telecasts. So even a delayed telecast shoiws both of you to be wrong.
Here is another point people like Rugby Union in particular S14 so much that they are willing to pay money just to watch it on TV. Just like boxing (sorry another sport that is not for girls or gays). Or even watch a delayed telecast.
Mind you shooting yourself has its advantages over watching the AFL at least then you don’t have to listen to every person in the office who has as much sporting ability as Danni DeVito blab on about who did what and what they should have done in every game of AFL over the week end when you get to work on Monday.
The only plus i can see about watching the AFL at least there is a chance that you could move back to the northern beaches in Sydney and get back to playing and watching Rugby Union. Which is exactly what I did.
Mr Mac said | July 31st 2008 @ 5:53pm | Report comment
One wise man
The flae in your logic is that Girls & Gays play Rugby!
Pippinu said | July 31st 2008 @ 6:04pm | Report comment
…listen to every person in the office who has as much sporting ability as Danni DeVito blab on about who did what …
But it’s the sum of these Danni DeVitos that make AFL strong. They buy memberships, go to games, buy merchandise, etc. etc. They same can be said of all the big sports in the US.
In the case of the AFL, it doesn’t end with the Danni DeVitos of the world. Females make up close to 45% of your average attendance – it’s right here where the other codes miss out big time. Personally, I don’t care that girls and gays want to watch the AFL – as long as they pay their way, they’re more than welcome!
If you just want a game for boofheads only – congratulations – you’ve succeeded!!
Michael C said | July 31st 2008 @ 6:24pm | Report comment
ONe Wise Man -
I’m really not sure what you’re on (or on about).
Firstly – I only ever mentioned that the RU wasn’t on FTA in Melb BEFORE midnight.
Secondly – our annual rainfall is less than Sydney – and, whilst the winter temperatures ARE lower – there are 2 elements to this – first, for a temperate climate, we ACTUALLY DO have 4 distinct SEASONS. And secondly, it’s only an hour up the road to the snow……i.e. real snow, I’m not counting the odd fall on Macedon or Mt Dandenong that might equate to snow in the Blue Mountains.
Thirdly – real football???? Yes, FA London rules 1862, Melbourne Rules 1858. Simple. Both original sets ‘evolved’ after the first set. In reality, the FA rules should more regard the hybrid rules of the late 1870s that incorporated the SHeffield rules (including crossbar, corner kicks etc), and likewise, perhaps the VFA rules by the mid 1870s might be deemed more the REAL start of a truely unique local game. Irrespective – - I’m not sure what you’re really on about here. BTW – soccer – - ‘true football’????? How do you come at that? Does it annoy you that Melbournites beat the Londoners to working out a ‘compromise’ and ‘common’ set of rules for all to play by – - and that sadly, the Londoners really only achieved a split in the ranks – - -such that most of the founding ‘clubs’ either ceased to exist or went off playing Rugby instead!!! Unlike the Melbourne rules, with original adherants in Melbourne FC and Geelong FC still battling it out in the main competition….150 years on…….galling isn’t it…….the truth outside you blinkered opinion.
Fourthly – AFL fans like the game so much they buy club memberships and get off their couch and take the whole family along to watch. And, many of those who can’t…..might consider a pay tv subscription…..but only after buying their token membership that they may not be able to use but consider it a gesture of true support.
Fifthly – if there were 4 super 14 games on FTA each week…how many of your ‘true fans’ would bother forking out their hard earneds for Pay TV?
btw – if soccer IS true ‘football’……how come they don’t HAVE to KICK a goal???……and how come they DO use their head and hands…..(i.e. goalie PLUS the side line throw ins)……..they are more than just technicalities, soccer is actually still some way from ‘true football in every sense of the word’.
ZAC – apologies the length of this reply – - – however, I believe I have responded point for point with the most inappropriately named ‘One Wise Man’…….and, please DO NOTE – - I have refrained from entering the discussion around coffee and sexuality – - – other than that I would suggest that it is no surprise that a Sydney Rugby type would have no notion of a decent cup of coffee and that it is surprising in the extreme that someone from Sydney who plays rugby would make gay innuendo (a partial pun!!!!) about anybody else?!??!?!
Millster said | July 31st 2008 @ 6:37pm | Report comment
MC – while you will know that I disagree with most of the points you have made in detail, and we have respectfully debated them before, I am SO on your side in terms of blasting this dickhead and his vitriolic crap that I will forgive you just this once.
And to ‘One Wise Man’ – the very reason why we enjoy this site is that we generally aren’t subjected to the rubbish that you have just put up. Bugger off.
joeb said | July 31st 2008 @ 8:32pm | Report comment
LeftArmSpinner, “The average salary in union is now $224,000 compared to $164,000 in league. League players play more games in a season, exacerbating the situation further. And the gap is widening! … The average annual salary for the top 25 players at NRL clubs this year will be $164,000, down on the average of $226,000 paid by the top five clubs in 1999, according to research by…”
This proves the takeover of RL from the old ARL as run by Arthurson and Quayle by Murdoch’s ‘Super League’ was merely a ‘con job’ from the word go after the initial exorbitant payments made to the code’s ‘elite players’ were designed so that they’d join the breakaway competition and convince others to join them in the process. But all News Ltd were interested in from the word go was control of the ‘people’s game’ for Murdoch’s Pay TV service Foxtel; to ensure they had product to on sell to would-be subscribers who were promised ‘all the league matches you’ll ever want to watch “LIVE”‘ etc.
What News Ltd and Gallop didn’t point out was that the calibre of many of the games would be well below par — as Bob Fulton has rightly pointed out in recent times on ‘GB with Hadley — compared to contests of the past under the auspices of Quayle and Arthurson, the NSWRFL, QLDRL & ARL.
Yet soon thereafter this endlessly smirking slippery customer Gallop carried out his boss’s instructions announcing to the clubs and players that the overly generous payments which had succeeded in luring players across to this great new ‘Super League’ comp couldn’t continue because it was ‘too expensive’ so it was effectively simply an exercise in commandeering the reins of who runs the people’s game — News Ltd on behalf of their shareholders!
If anything’s going to succeed in killing off rugby league, it’s Murdoch, Gallop and News Ltd — and their shareholders. What the players need to consider right now is not defection to France or UK rugby or league clubs, but ’strike action’ right here at home to save the 100-year old code. And it can be very quickly saved. For starters reintroduce honest to goodness contested scrums — Westy, take your ’short sharp passing game’ that you so appreciate watching in Origin games and get your rah rahs to play it instead. While at it, depower your scrum as well so that the focus is strictly on the stupefying electrifying ’short sharp passing game’. ELVs for RL? Let’s not even bother
— so that every facet of play taking place on the field is a contest. This will quickly bring the true supporters of RL back to the game in droves. Phil Gould seriously needs to clearly understand that spectators want to see ‘a real contest’ on the RL field, not this Clayton’s nonsense being this gesture of the ’symbolic uncontested scrum’ in game after game after game, year after year since News took the reins.
Those among the RL players who can actually ‘think for themselves and the future of the game’ had better quickly organise themselves or the whole show could well go down the tube. Denis Fitzgerald is another has-been who should be replaced at the Eels considering his endless twaddle about amalgamating the two codes, ‘rationalisation’ or whatever they call it. First-rate joke.
Garth Hamilton said | August 1st 2008 @ 7:00am | Report comment
Just a few quick notes I thought I’d add.
Firstly, and I’m certainly not complaining, but the original title of this post was ‘The Western Front’. Yeah a little crap I know and that is probably why Zac changed it as he is perfectly entitled to do. Apart from the bit about ‘the Broncos and the Reds merging’ the article does not really delve too deeply into merging as in a merging of the rules of the games but rather looks at a piece meal takeover of league by rugby.
The Broncs/Reds merger I was talking about was not the best example I could have used. A better example might have been a business merger between the Brumbies and the Raiders as neither code could realistically expect to put a second side in the nation’s capital and the financial incentives of shared resources may one day seem attractive.
Both Leeds and Harlequins have dual teams in the UK. It will be interesting to see how these clubs evolve however at the moment I think it would be fair to say that in the case of the Harlequins, the league team is the weaker partner. Home matches for the league team seem to draw crowds of around 3000 whereas the union side gets around 10000. This is probably to be expected in London though as it is not a league town. Rugby in London has struggled for a long time but by aligning itself with the strong ‘Quins’ name it may continue to steadily grow.
Leeds are almost the opposite to the Quins with the League side definately leading the way in terms of crowd numbers which again is to be expected given the clubs location. The really interesting part would be finding out how much sponsorship money trickles down to each side of the two clubs and what sort of revenue is drawn from the respective TV contracts.
So I guess, looking at these two examples, and given that there are a lot of Australians now involved in the administration of UK rugby league, it would not be impossible to foresee a time when a similar thing could happen in Oz. But here is the part where my argument comes in – the Super League revolution resolved a lot of issues in the UK whereas it failed to do so in Australia. This may be because of the different situations that league finds itself in in these two countries ie RL in the UK does not have the problem of a single city having too many clubs.
Another point I wanted to make is that I believe a win for French rugby is a win for Australian rugby. The reality is that rugby competes with league and now that both codes are professional the competition is on something of a level playing field. Sonny Bill Williams defection (or conversion) has left his former code weaker. However much it may seem offensive to league sensibilities (there’s two words you don’t here together every day) the Williams affair is a win for the ARU. Whats best for the ARU is that it is a win that didn’t cost them a euro. France is already driving the development of rugby in Georgia, Romania and Italy so why not encourage them to help Australia out some more too.
And for the record I played league for ten years whilst growing up in a league hotbed. My old man, his brother and their extended families all played it and my cousins kids have followed in their footsteps and now play for the might Warialda Wombats too. I had Wally Lewis and Alfie Langer autographs on my wall as a teenager and can remember sitting on my Dad’s shoulder’s at Lang Park when old Happy Jack used to trundle about. Somewhere along the way I fell in love with rugby and had a ‘emporer’s new clothes’ moment when I looked back at league. The game changed and the people who ran it changed and my old man recently had a sad conversation with Artie Beatson along the same lines. I’ve looked at league from the outside for some time now and as anyone who’s lived overseas will tell you, when you’ve seen your home through foreign eyes you begin to understand it better.
Don’t know why I felt the need to defend myself here, I guess the accusations of being a netball playing, dame dissuading, LOTR geek who operates an unclean Hull based fishing trawler just cut a little too close to the bone. Seriously though I did play mixed netball for a while and highly recommend it to anyone with strong knees. Come to think of it I wasn’t that good with the ladies as a kid either and I did read a lot of Tolkien. The fishing trawler thing though is just pure slander
Matt said | August 1st 2008 @ 8:48am | Report comment
The big wall that would revent the resource sharing between Union and League in Australia would be that the Super Rugby and NRL are very soon going to be competing head to head. That is, they are both Winter sports.
The reason that resource and facility sharing works efficiently in England is because Rugby League switched to playing as a summer sport. It would have been interesting to see how much TV ratings, sponsorship and match attendances would stack up between the two codes if League had remained in the Winter sports market (with Soccer and Union), rather than switching to compete with…cricket.
It is the same with Soccer in Australia and the USA. Both sports would have struggled to grow as they have if they had attempted to grow against the other existing major codes. In Australia, Soccer has no football code to compete with, just cricket. In America Soccer competes with Baseball.
Maybe the answer could be for League to switch to becoming a Summertime code in Australia too? I’m sure fans would much rather see that then see their club get renamed and moved to another State or City?!
Very soon (ie 2010) the Super 14 will be expanding from a 14 week long competition to a 26 week long competition. It will also likely start later in the season (early-mid march). This will put Super Rugby smack in the path of the AFL and the NRL adn will see more money and exposure for Rugby Union. It will also mean that teams like the Reds and Broncos, the Brumbies and Raiders, the Waratahs and many of the central city League teams (Roosters, Bulldogs, Souths) and also the new Melbourne based Super team and the Storm will be going head to head for the better part of a season.
Rugby Union’s professional club comp will all of a sudden find itself as a direct competitor for attention with League and AFL. This is when we’ll get a better idea of what kind of future each code can expect. And I’d imagine that amalgamations are a lot less likely than simply seeing teams dissapear into new territories and semi professionalism (as each code attempts to stretch thier TV income $’s).
The Link said | August 1st 2008 @ 9:03am | Report comment
Garth, Sonny going to France does nothing for Australian Rugby, it allows a bit of intial PR strutting yes, but in the medium term Aus Rugby faces the same threat, they won’t be able to pay their players enough to keep them and they don’t have the luxury of depth that the NRL does. Now’s not the time to rest on the inevitability of Rugby’s dominance of the two codes in this country, I can bet JON isn’t.
We are entering the period where Rugby fades from the limelight in this country, the Olympics are next week, the A-League kicks off in a couple of weeks, we have one more home elite game in September, then nothing in Aus until February, just as the NRL and AFL are heating up for the next couple of months.
True Tah said | August 1st 2008 @ 9:05am | Report comment
Matt,
league will not switch to being a summer sport, it is far too demanding to be played in the summer heat.
Besides the A-League has the rights to most of the stadiums in summer anyway, the FFA have got themselves into a pretty strong position now, and they are not going to budge.
Redb said | August 1st 2008 @ 9:10am | Report comment
One Wise Man,
to add to MC’s comments…
One of the things that surprised me about ten years ago when heading into North Queensland was the perception of AFL being gay. GAYFL I think it was called. You have got to be kidding, this is the most ignorant of statements implying softness or feminity, not that there anything wrong with being gay, but it is hardly a soft sport as some rugby fans of both codes like to suggest.
AFL is a 360 degree game where the ball is often in contest not tucked under your arm until you get tackled from the front. One of the the toughest things in AFL is keeping your head over the ball in a contest scenario where you are heading flat out in one direction as your opposition is heading flat out from the other, It’s takes guts to keep your eyes only on the ball and anyone who has played the game knows that.
try backing into a pack of players take a mark. The full back in either rugby codes never has players behind him when the ball is kicked, this is often the case in AFL.
I have no issue stating that rugby league is a tough game, rugby union likewise, scrums and ruck and maul scenartios, etc, but it is just PLAIN ignorance to think playing AFL does not require toughness.
Redb
p.s. Millster, your spot on.
Big Kev said | August 1st 2008 @ 11:13am | Report comment
True Tah – the Underwood brothers are of Chinese/English parentage. About as close to Asian players as I can think of.
Very few in English football – none at the top level.
True Tah said | August 1st 2008 @ 11:22am | Report comment
Big Kev,
you got me thinking about our own backyard with the Underwood brothers…to my own knowledge I know of two guys of Asian extraction playing in NRL and S14 – Craig Wing (half-Filippino) and Chris Oyoung (half Chinese).
Im talking about Australian Asians – guys who are born here or immigrated here for non-sport related reasons, like say the Korean bloke playing for Newcastle Jets.
Are there any currently playing in AFL or A-League?
Mr Mac said | August 1st 2008 @ 11:22am | Report comment
Big Kev, True Tah
Chris O’Young ex Tah & now Western Force is Chinese/Irish
True Tah said | August 1st 2008 @ 11:31am | Report comment
Redb,
funny that you said that in North Queensland there is that attitude, Ian Roberts actually played for the Cowboys for a few years, so I would have thought they would be a bit more accepting up there.
One Wise Man’s statements do not echo the wider rugby community, Redb, we have a team in our Subbies comp called the Sydney Convicts, they are I guess what you call a gay rugby team, in fact I think they even have two teams…they compete in an international comp called the Bingham Cup, named after the bloke who was involved in foiling one of the 9/11 attacks, who was a gay rugby player.
I dont know of any league, AFL or soccer teams similar to the Convicts in Sydney, although there well could be.
A lot of the top sports stars who have “come out” (Ian Roberts, Ameachi, Esera Tuimalo, David Kopay) were all big guys who you wouldn’t have wanted to piss off (I know Johnny Lewis though Roberts could have been a boxer).
Have there been any soccer players who have ever “come out”? What was the general reaction?
Big Kev said | August 1st 2008 @ 8:01pm | Report comment
True Tah the Korean playing for the Jets is a football import so there dont appear to be any Asians in top level Aus football.
BTW Justin Fashanu was a top level player in English soccer who came out but from memory it didnt go so well and he committed suicide a few years ago.
Redb said | August 1st 2008 @ 9:18pm | Report comment
True Tah,
yeah I’ve read about the Convicts in Peter Fitzsimmon’s SMH column. Re FNQ, this was 10 years ago long before the Cowboys. I’ve seen some comments in the blog section of the Daily Terrorgraph that uses the same term. Just ignorance I suppose.
Collingwood have a supporter group called the pink magpies or something, dont know of any team.
Redb
gavin said | August 4th 2008 @ 12:17am | Report comment
quote ” If the game once again turned its back on Souths, you cannot tell me that John O’Neil and SANZAR wouldn’t consider offering their board a means of keeping the flame alive.”
No. They are too stupid to see te opportunity
gavin said | August 4th 2008 @ 12:25am | Report comment
quote Mungo
” Unless you live in another country the battleground is Australia for the hearts and minds. I dont see union on free to air TV? Just some ‘facts’. Elsewhere on the Roar there’s an article trumpeting the Bledisloe as a pay tv winner – oops only 25% of the country has pay tv.’
Oops! It’s the vast international audience they will aim it at. It appears Mungo knows little of the economics of this
Who’s red faced now Mungo ?
gavin said | August 4th 2008 @ 12:32am | Report comment
There will be no merger. If anything, League will be destroyed and that ain’t a merger
chris said | August 30th 2008 @ 3:53am | Report comment
Iam bored with the going ons of both codes and would just be happy to see just one code now as i really think League is going nowhere now.
Steffy said | August 30th 2008 @ 4:05am | Report comment
“It’s the vast international audience they will aim it at”
What vast international audience?
Adam Pearce said | September 1st 2008 @ 11:03pm | Report comment
“Ultimately I think RL should take a leaf out of the ESL’s book – it is a regional sport which attracts fantastic support and is financially secure in its part of the UK despite the giant of English soccer dominating the sporting world of England.
This is what Brad Fittler is suggesting re: teams in Central Coast, Coffs Harbour and Sunshine Coast. ”
That is rubbish the ESL is expanding outside the M62 it has les cats,Harlequins and two new teams coming in that are in non-rugby league areas Manchester with salford and South Wales with the celtic crusaders.
Not to mention that Toulouse bidded for a team and has being included in the next tier down from super league to prove itself for 2012 and a revived Gateshead are looking towards 2012 to bid for a team also.
So um yeah start expanding to a national league (y’know teams from outside the eastern states ) and forgot this bollocks about merging codes its a crock and there is far far far too much water underneath that bridge for that to happen.
Gabes said | December 13th 2008 @ 11:34am | Report comment
As they say ignorance is bliss and this Union supporter is living the ignorance the games will never unite(oil and water).
As for League adopting union rules we would all be asleep either on the feild or watching from the stands or in front of the box. Mr Hamilton continue to take the pills your Doctor gave you your delusions will stop in a few months.
Gabes said | December 13th 2008 @ 12:42pm | Report comment
As for Dunny Bill? In either Ruggers or League players come and go and usually Journo’s say things like there will never be another of his like…(Ie; Michael Jones then Josh Kronfield then MacCaw) Dunny Bill is the same, with in hours of the news coming out a new kid was eating them up in the NRL. It’s called evolution, somewhere in the streets of South Auckland, Redfern or Wigan there is a young kid who will pop up out of no-where as a revelation. Garth over the years Journo’s like you heave in one way or another decided that our code was dying. But we always bounce back, the difference now I guess is that the Goatriders amongst union are watching in countries outside of Oz as there audiances fall off as people turn off your slow law ridden game. Possibly you should put your vast journolistic skills to why ARU cannot for the life of themselves get a exciting second tier comp running in Oz. The reason is simple really your players skillsets below S14 are abysmal(as my spelling). Yes I hear you say well we’ll just poach players from league as the French have been doing first from French League and now further afield. Its a short term anwser to a problem that goes far deeper…development.
But I guess if your coaches dont have the skills then your players will suffer…And from what I can see of Oz Union your best coaches are now off swanning around in Europe helping themselves to there new masters old money.
Yup so your only option was to grab a Kiwi,(yes I know we in League did the same with Wayne Bennett, difference is he’s not the coach Steve Kearney is.) Oz Union is on a far more slippery slope than League…As I said take the pills Garth things will look beter, neither game is going away as someone said in there comments both will continue to keep there ardent supporters, some will flit back and forward…but neither will amalgamate, why should they and even if the impoossible happened and the games merged new bodies on both sides would spring up to take there place.
gavin said | December 13th 2008 @ 7:24pm | Report comment
league and union will never merge. League will fold, unless the new ELVs help league amalgamate
gavin said | December 13th 2008 @ 7:42pm | Report comment
O’Neill and rugby should be supporting youth and looking at western Sydney
O’Neill and the rugby union bosses are too stupid to see an opportunity
Westy said | December 13th 2008 @ 8:50pm | Report comment
The main long term danger to Australian rugby comes from the real possibility of a renegotiation of the Sanzar agreement. On any criteria especially TV coverage Australia gets a disproportionate share of the revenue. Much of the Australian ratings and coverage is also dependent on one team.
I cannot but remind everyone the forthcoming FIFA World Cup in South Africa will permanently expose the fault line in South African sport. ..rugby in South Africa is basically an ethnic game supported on the whole by a couple of million Dutch descendents and a handful of the dominant black population.The success of South African rugby is a testament to the ability skill and strength of this small segment of the population. It is embarrassing on this site to read as though it is otherwise. It is a downright falsehood to say it is the South African people’s game. The recent moves to move the Springbok emblem on the jersey is but one symptom.
The football world cup in South Africa will put immense financial strain on South African rugby finances both in terms of governmental and corporate support and will give them no choice to seek their proper share of the Sanzar agreement or worse still play in the Northern hemisphere in their own timezone to achieve commercial security.
This would be a development that would send shivers down the spine of Australian rugby . Look forward to Australian rugby hawking ( or the less kindly prostituting )AllBlack and Wallaby games around Asia all in the guise of development but obviously for the money. It is a reality we in Australian rugby meay have to accept.
I find the continual pushing aside by many on this site of the relative poor ratings showing of rugby on Australian television difficult to understand. It would appear some on this site live in an arificial universe.If its bad we just ignore it. I watch but not many of my fellow Australians do on a relative basis and god forbid if the Waratahs have a poor year. We only got 400000 for a live game in Hong Kong on free to air and a crowd of 5000 to our grand final. The GPS competition has about 3 good games a year and the Colts competition is a joke. The assumption that league will lose its best to European rugby is the best they have not even strarted on our rugby elite.
Gavin basically if league did not continue to operate we would lose a huge reservoir of RUGBY players. Outside elite private schools it is league that keeps the flag flying for heavy contact play for juniors across the eastern states alive. Do not check to closely what code many U/6 to U/10 rugby boys initially played.. It is mini and mod league.( Cross/Giteau)…scratch a little more and you find League junior rep players ( Smith and Elsom and a myriad of islander players) . I begin to despise, a strong word yes the platitudes of many in rugby who do not engage in the battle for juniors but rely on an elite private school system that is running out of steam with some fairly inept teams by the way). Whatever Parramatta EEls rugby league’s motive they have poured 7 million into rugby in Western Sydney in the last 7 years.The Panthers about 4 million.
By the way thankyou to all those who have contributed to Prarievale high school’s Japan rugby tour. They are nearly there. Any further donations will be gratefully accepted. They must not fail to represent Australian schools.
gavin said | December 13th 2008 @ 9:21pm | Report comment
yes westy true, it’s unfortunate though our forwards almost to a man come from private school resevoir and not the wider pool of talent. They are pussies I’m sorry to say. Thye old school tie still runs Oz rugby
stillmissit said | December 14th 2008 @ 8:52am | Report comment
Gabes – Interesting comment about new bodies springing up if the codes merged. Maybe it would all start again from a basis of true support and not just marketing mayhem and bullshit.
In my opinion this situation is at least 10 years away, unless someone really stuffs the finances. Based on history it will be union (without O’Neil) who will be in the shit. The ARU remind me of the Labour Party the old boys get control using politics and skullduggery.Then the coffers are opened and the largesse flows for a couple of years, reality hits them when the money is gone.
Westy hope Prarievale make it. I ref’d them once this year and I haven’t seen a more disciplined Islander team in my life.
Midfielder said | December 14th 2008 @ 9:26am | Report comment
Westy
Well said on the position of SA rugby and the potential impact of the world cup.
I think one of the major long term impacts, will be perception, Most people think SA is a rugby nation when as you said it is mainly a football nation. This will erode brand Wallaby as outside NZ, SA are considered a major force … that major force becomes a much harder sell when player numbers and the nations heart become better known.
True Tah said | December 14th 2008 @ 9:47am | Report comment
Westy/Midfielder,
I dont think the futbol WC will hurt the finances of SA Rugby as much as you guys reckon, quite a few rugby union stadiums are being used as venues – Loftus, Ellis Park, Free State Stadium – as it is now, many of the PSL clubs are in a far healthier financial position than the majority of provincial rugby unions, so its not like its anything new, and PSL has some very lucrative Pay TV deals.
Im due to fly to SA next weekend, so will be in a better position to comment then, but if South African rugby wants to improve, it wont be worried about futbol and the world cup, it would be worried about a) getting better funding for township rugby and b) fixing up the provincial system, so that teams outside the Big 5 have a chance of winning, Griquas in the northern cape can knock them off every now and then, but some of the scorelines are embarassing, with some sides conceding up to 90 points.
The whole “South Africa is a seen as a rugby nation” perception – one of the reasons why this is the case is due to the relative success of the Boks v Bafana Bafana. Lets ignore the fact the the futbol world has about 100 nations capable of knocking each other off, as opposed to 10-12 in rugby – the Boks have been winning a fair bit and more recently they are involving guys of black and coloured background (BTW Westy, rugby has a massive following amongst the coloureds, esp in the West Cape) – what has Bafana Bafana won? in past 10 years? No South African I have ever met has ever said rugby is the national game of SA.
Personally I hope Bafana Bafana do well in 2010, hope they beat some of those bloody Europeans, its a hell of a more interesting when the little blokes give the fat bullies a bloody nose!
Midfielder said | December 14th 2008 @ 9:58am | Report comment
TT
I was looking at the perception of many in Australia of SA rugby. When it becomes clear to all that in SA RU is the minor sport and that SA’s play football then I cannot see how that will not have an impact.
True Tah said | December 14th 2008 @ 10:03am | Report comment
Midfielder,
it hasnt hurt rugby in Argentina, England, France, Wales, where more people play futbol than rugby.
Maybe more Australians should consider visiting Africa following 2010 – I hope they do.
Midfielder said | December 14th 2008 @ 10:09am | Report comment
TT
You have still missed my point … I am talking about the impact in Australia not the impact overseas.
Sammy said | December 14th 2008 @ 11:47am | Report comment
The stronger Football in Australia the better for RUgby Union. As in other countries when people want something different than football but still desire international standing and strong competition then Union drops in place. The egos that spend the money for there own club find the cost too much in football to achieve the ego ride so turn to union to achieve similar standing across a broad base.
I’m union through and through but support football in Aus also as it cleans up a messy football code market, football will take over in many of the traditional league schools and take its own ground elsewhere. Football already is the national (football) code, tv ratings and noise levels do not make another code the top spot. the players and the families involved do, politicians know this thats why they put money behind football whenever a decent business plan is put in front of them.
stillmissit said | December 14th 2008 @ 4:35pm | Report comment
Sammy – this is very true. I have a friend who’s boy was a very good soccer player but he wasn’t getting any buzz out of soccer so he turned to union age 19 and loves it. He loves the physical contact and the opportunity to beat a player with more than foot skill.
I remember several good players from my time (70’s) who came from soccer and were great backs who could kick off both feet. Cant remember a forward coming from soccer but I am sure there are instances. We are of course referring to kids in their later teens or early 20’s not age 11-15 as all kids play soccer when they are young and I think its a great game for them.
League also has a strong place in kids minds particularly out West and although, as I have mentioned elsewhere, the kids are keen to play both League and Union these days, league is still their main game.
Westy said | December 14th 2008 @ 9:14pm | Report comment
True Tah …..thanks for the information. Hope you have safe trip. Look forward to any further info.
dumbbeatnix said | March 10th 2009 @ 1:28pm | Report comment
Wow you have created a swarm of interest. NOT!
Finno said | April 9th 2009 @ 1:14pm | Report comment
Its an intersting point and the 2 codes probably need to take a long hard look at themselves, union has the international appeal as more than 3 countries play the sport in a serious manner, whilst the player numbers of union are slim. League internationally is a joke at best with the world cup a farce. AFL has a massive local following and is the Aussie game.
But there are more registered rugby players in the Pretorian Rugby Club than there are in all of Australia. Leagues heart lands are constantly getting smaller as the popularity of the AFL grows. Every time another leagueplayer gets arrested a whole swag of parents stop thier kids from playing and turning to AFL or Football.
Union and League hate each other but AFL and Football aint going away. And both are ready and willing to accept those who stop watching, playing or supporting league or Rugby. Union and League must join to survive let alone succeed. Purest would rather the gaem die than combine and thats a fair point but a hybrid game must be developed or Rugby or League will fade in Australia.
Its all based on player numbers, and kids playing
2008
Soccer 697,400
AFL 455,800
Rugby League 209,800
Rugby Union 165,300
Dogs Of War said | August 16th 2009 @ 10:50am | Report comment
I always laugh at those sorts of figures of playing numbers, because both Rugby’s have many who don’t want to play full contact Rugby, and instead play either touch or oztag. These two sports have huge numbers of participants for that very reason.
znotty said | May 4th 2009 @ 11:12am | Report comment
i have a rule for Rugby Union if theres a penalty in the first minute i turn it off,haven`t seen a game in years,a thoroughly crap game of endless set pieces & private school headmaster grandstanding refs,if a ref blew 40 penalties at win stadium he wouldn`t get out alive buts its the norm in that absolute crap game of rugby,an average first grader in League (Andrew Walker) is a world class test player in Union,what a joke.
ilikedahoodoogurusingha said | May 13th 2009 @ 4:07pm | Report comment
Quote ; an average first grader in League (Andrew Walker) is a world class test player in Union,what a joke.
I suppose that’s why Matt Rogers, and Wendell Sailor couldn’t hold down a starting spot in the Wallabies then!!
macavity said | May 28th 2009 @ 6:16pm | Report comment
this thread is a good chuckle
delusion usually is.
greginglis said | June 4th 2009 @ 2:14am | Report comment
rugby league is pretty good.
mcxd said | June 4th 2009 @ 5:23am | Report comment
ive come in the end of this debate. but another comment wont hurt…(well league v union debate could go on for another century..as much fun as banging your head against a brick wall)
i think we should merge union and league. its a great idea . while were there we should also merge sychronised swimming and polo. horses are great swimmers. ..maybe in merge american football with track and field and replace the ball with a javelin. bags not being the wide reciever… i could go on…and i will. merge cycling and boxing. nothing like a TKO at 80 km/h.
stillmissit said | June 4th 2009 @ 8:51am | Report comment
mcxd – I agree with you. I used to believe that merging the codes was almost a certainty at some point in the future but after being involved with rugby out west of sydney for the last 3 years where all the players are league first and rugby a distant second I dont think it will happen.
The 2 games are so far apart, the only connection is that we both pass backwards. Scrums,lineouts, breakdown, forwards jobs etc etc are all different. It takes a long time for these guys to learn union and some of them never will and it is most probably the same for union players moving to league.
This would be a 10-15 year rebuilding if it did happen.
Corey said | August 31st 2009 @ 2:07pm | Report comment
Rugby League is a better product, and the world realises it as Rugby Union might have a stronger international game but Rugby League is being taken up in more countries than Union. Let’s just remember who Union who gets its international backs from. Check and Mate.
Dean Pantio said | September 20th 2009 @ 12:50am | Report comment
Rin said | October 29th 2009 @ 11:12am | Report comment
RE: Corey did you just try and claim League is played in more countries than Union…mmmm you must live in a bubble or shall we say your whole world comprises NSW and QLD. your a dumb dumb
M1tch said | October 29th 2009 @ 11:14am | Report comment
France wont allow the codes to merge..why is this always brought up