The most important trophy to Australia is …

Spiro Zavos said  | August 10th 2008 @ 6:30pm | Report comment

My guess is that Australia could spend $200 million on football and not win the Football World Cup within the next 20 to 30 years. The Rudd Government, in fact, is pouring many tens of millions of dollars into football, at the detriment to pledges already made by the Howard Government to AFL, rugby league and rugby union. This is on top of the $30 million football got for implementing the Crawford Report reforms on the game.
The Sports Minister, Kate Ellis, is a know-nothing from Adelaide who did not know the difference between rugby league and rugby union and has allowed sports policy to be dictated to her by Kevin Rudd et al who know nothing about Australian sport but know something about the political power of the multicultural lobby and businessmen like Frank Lowy.

Midfielder said  | August 10th 2008 @ 9:04pm | Report comment

Redb

Touchie, touchie ……… maybe your reading to much into the article ……….. never ending quest to squash other codes …….. well lets see who that could be ………

Lets not get back onto funding all codes have benefited …….. AFL & NRL most of all with stadiums alone.

On the name thing as I see it in many ways its has settled itself, union is called union these days, league is called league, AFL is AFL, and football is either football or soccer …….. don’t see the issue anymore TBH.

G MASTRO said  | August 10th 2008 @ 10:12pm | Report comment

Spot on SPIRO.

Out of interest I wouldn’t imagine other countries have to dip into their taxes to prepare for a world cup would they. Just grab your best players, all highly paid, maybe spring some extra cash for a quality international coach and presto.

Typical shoddy piece from a soccer blow hard

Midfielder said  | August 10th 2008 @ 11:07pm | Report comment

GM

Aussie Rules I guess………. I was refering to the overall terms that seem to becoming generally accepted …… AFL or Aussie Rules both the same …….. don’t seem to bother me to much, as I said before football is either football or soccer.

MC

Its not called the soccer world cup simply for years as just the world cup and everyone knew what was being played.

More recently other codes have adopted a world cup format and put their name in front of it.

Foolish rant to say the world cup means nothing to Australians outside Sydney. But I am not bothered I understand football current position in Australian sport, further understand where football is headed, and feel happy that we are heading in the right direction.

Towser said  | August 11th 2008 @ 9:25am | Report comment

I guess this is a two tiered point of view.
One being factual based on cold hard facts & two based on Australians personal emotional attachments.
The cold hard facts are that in the broader world (& have some have said already we do live in it & globalisation means that no country is isolated from it) football & in particular the FIFA WC is streets ahead of its nearest competitor in being recognised as THE TROPHY to hold aloft. Even in this country this fact can be upheld & recognised by the TV ratings for the 2002 WC in particular when many matches were in our time zone & the 2006 WC ratings for Socceroo matches,which even though in the small hours of the morning attracted peak viewing type audiences on SBS that commercial channels would give their eye tooth for.
However the process of football being recognised by many Australians as “traditionally” being on a level of “The Ashes” will take a little more time & success on the world stage. But it is happening & Australian governments(of whatever political persuasion) are recognising the growing importance of football to the nation as a whole.
There will always be in any country “Noses out of joint” but it is of little matter if the majority dont need plastic surgery in order to see a bigger picture.

Towser said  | August 11th 2008 @ 10:57am | Report comment

Redb

Regarding questions 1-3. I guess this is really something only the Federal Government can answer. Having watched the Hollowmen on the ABC recently if theres any ring of truth in it who knows what they think one week to the next.
To answer these 3 questions you would need to investigate what other countries(traditional- say England Brazil & non traditional football countries say Japan ,USA have done or are currently doing. Then by comparison you could make an informed judgement.
This sort of leads to question 4. Fifa provide support throughout the world for football,but having 209 nations spread across 6 confederations one country isn’t going to be favoured above others. Generally I believe the confederation gets the cash from FIFA. So I I would assume that Europe doesnt need as much as a developing area like Oceania.
If the Federal Government decides that it is worthwhile to their needs(& that is independent of my or your opinion) that Football needs to grow then YES it does need government funding,because of the number of national teams it supports & a growing A-League. It doesnt have the cash to grow independently. The Government will decide(hopefully Hollowmen is entirely fictitious) whether football is funded further based on their judgement & whether it is acceptable to the electorate as a whole.

True Tah said  | August 11th 2008 @ 11:12am | Report comment

Jimbo,

whilst it would be fantastic to win the FIFA world cup, I do not think this will make us a ‘better global citizen’ in any way. North Korea has a soccer team that did well in 1966 and it is the only sport they have there…they don’t strike me as a good global citizen?

Having the world cup will be a big boost for tourism too, but I think it is a bit far to say that an Australian will be better ‘accepted’ overseas if they are a soccer supporter or not.

Re funding, if the money goes towards community projects like maintaining junior fields, then I have no issues…if government funding goes towards bringing our overseas stars by paying them to play in Australia when they are earning $500,000 a week, then yes I do have an issue with that, if it goes to propping up professional HAL sides which would collapse otherwise, then I would have an issue with that as well.

Hopefully the Womens league will be similar to the ANZ Championship in terms of being able to get decent coverage and increasing crowds, and I think it will be able to stand on its own two feet.

Redb said  | August 11th 2008 @ 11:33am | Report comment

Towser,

I think the ‘Hollowmen’ is right on the money, which accounts for my relatively cheap shot at Rudd and his ‘international statesmen’ ambitions.

I’m far more inclined to support grass roots sports funding than grants for example to keep the A League afloat.

Jimbo,

Well I think do understand just how big the World Cup is, that is not debatable. I’ve always maintained an interest in the growth of soccer in this country and its welcome evolution via the A League and World Cup success in getting to the final 16 in 2006.

What I don’t like is the Federal Government picking winners in sports funding and chasing the WC dream to the extent that other niche sports in a global sense like Aussie Rules become marginalised. Australian football has a very strong cultural background in various parts of the country and the Government should always be mindful of supporting the things that make us unique.

Not getting too nationalistic about this, but everytime a US Corporate buys an Australian food brand we lose some of that identity. We are encouraged to buy Australian, support Australian uniquesness and support Australia in world sport, business,etc. It is a difficult line to tread when it comes to the football codes, yes we all want the Socceroos to do well, but many of us don’t want the country expunging our cultural sporting passions in the uber pursuit of global glory via the World Cup.

Soccer fans get confused by this I know, having spent 2 years on the SMH’s soccer blog - the Flog I know this only too well.

Redb

Michael C said  | August 11th 2008 @ 11:43am | Report comment

So - - on the ‘other sports’ and ‘olympics etc’ tab - - this has degenerated into a soccer (wanna be the only game called ‘football’) search for the holy grail dreamfest.

……………geeze…………how boring.

re names - - AFL is ideally a single competition, in Australia - - for an Australian ‘tab’ that is deeming to refer to all things Aust Footy - including AFL, VFL, SANFL, QAFL, WAFL, local leagues, country leagues, TAC cup etc etc - - then, AFL is vastly underselling - - in the same manner as NRL is to Rugby League. It would be like using the ‘Super 14′ ‘brand’ instead of “Rugby” or “Union”.

However - - the AFL themselves have worked hard to ‘brand’ the ‘AFL’ ‘brand’, such that AFLQ and AFLNSW and even international leagues are, I gather, getting ‘better’ support should the AFL brand/logo be ‘incorporated’.

I guess its a period of transition.

Michael C said  | August 11th 2008 @ 11:53am | Report comment

Midfielder -

the ‘outside’ of NSW thing is simply to state that the illustrated importance of soccer is less outside of NSW (Sydney in particular). That’s exhibited via participation numbers - - - of tax payers.

Using that as a guide, however, applying this MORE so to the Rugby codes - - where by Union especially (and therefore the BLuddyslow and the Web Ellis trophy) are going to be of greater significance by far to more people in NSW and QLd than any other state - - -

- - - the ashes, on the other hand - - will be far, far more consistant across the entire country…..

….and has a whole lot of history on it’s side, also has the guarrantee of 4 yearly hosting and 4 yearly overlapping touring - - - in competition with England - - - therefore, regularity of known contest, and against the most traditional of rivals.

Nothing anywhere in regards to Aust sport comes near to the Ashes.

That’s my opinion. You may call it a foolish rant - - but, I’ve actually based it to a degree on known and illustrated facts/statistics (which I recognise are only just slightly more dependable than our personal opinions on this site).

btw - - funding for a game like soccer is certainly hard to handle in view of recent discussions about a HECS style arrangement for AIS graduates etc………perhaps that’s the objective though, produce more Aussie soccer players of a better standard, send them off to Europe, and take 20% of their wages about $100,000 a week!!!!!

I still find it ironic that this all powerful global behemoth of soccer so desperately needs and apparently warrants major fed govt funding……..oh, that and a free new stadium in Melbourne………can’t wait for soccer in Australia to properly learn to stand on it’s own two feet, stop relying on hands outs.

Koala Bear said  | August 11th 2008 @ 12:58pm | Report comment

Old Goalie,
In the words of John O’Neill (Rugby) the FIFA World Cup and the entire world wide networking, that surrounds it is an eye opener.. It generates $billions of dollars and prestige and business opportunities are massive. That with international matches focusing on the “Australian National Football teams” from the joeys to the Matildas … What other code can deliver achieve that sort of world recognition in Australia throughout the Americas, Asia, and Europe … Grooky…?? Nah it will be a long time in waiting and I wouldn’t hold your breath doing so… (Austrade back the FFA in every adventure they participate in).

~~~~~~~~
KB

True Tah said  | August 11th 2008 @ 1:12pm | Report comment

Koala Bear,

you didn’t mention Africa???? In the vast majority of African nations, soccer is pretty much the only sport people are ever exposed to.

But does Australia NEED to be a successful soccer power in order to be seen as a successful country?

Andrew said  | August 11th 2008 @ 1:48pm | Report comment

The HAL is only a few years old so it’s fair to be propped up by the government, and it is in our best interests to be competitive in the world game. It matters more than you think. It is a political and business asset to have a well performing football team which is recognised globally.

Take the WC 06 for example. Many countrys were shocked to learn that Australia could mix it with the best.

Now with government funding, we can take development to new heights. Further improving the HAL and grass roots level, with small sided games to improve the quality of the juniors which filter through. No longer do these juniours, or their parents need to be concerned about a career as a strong HAL will be an attractive destination.

Football, with the help of funding now, overtake the other codes based on the highest participation rates, grass root redevelopment with small sided games, a well run HAL and being competitive internationally.

In 10 years time we should start to see the rewards of this dramatic redevelopment and possibly host the 2018 or 2022 world cup.

My money is on 2022, and by that time the 10 year olds to today, who will be 22, will have gone through the new system > small sided games > youth league > HAL > europe.

Slippery Jim said  | August 11th 2008 @ 2:04pm | Report comment

Wrong again Redb, the Aussie government DOES call the rounball code “Australian football.”

In a recent official press release; “Winning the right to host the 2018 FIFA World Cup is a Herculean task, but overcoming tough odds is what Australian Football does best.”

http://www.pm.gov.au/media/Release/2008/media_release_0086.cfm

Not that it really matters, does it? Or are you getting panicky with all that smell of fear in the air?

Andrew said  | August 11th 2008 @ 2:16pm | Report comment

Also a important fact probably forgotten..

Australia’s net immigration is to increase to 1million people within 3 years.

Most of these immigrants will be from countries where football is the number 1 sport. Lets take a conservative figure of around 60% of these 1million will be football followers.

That is 600,000 new supporters, or an extra 3%. Business is just interested in making money. So which markets have more room to grow? Honestly? AFL? RL? Union? or football?? With immigrants, and gen Y perferring Football the number 1 code in the next 30 years is pretty obvious.. To me anyway.

Redb said  | August 11th 2008 @ 2:22pm | Report comment

SJ,

Oops…..selective quoting, who is wrong again

http://www.ausport.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/149420/NSO_Recognition_as_at_13_Feb_08.pdf

Besides, why isn’t FFA known as AFFA then?

Rudd’s press releases are no doubt tuned for sporting politicial correctness.

Redb

Redb said  | August 11th 2008 @ 2:33pm | Report comment

Andrew,

Well obviously you’ve never been to an Australian football match in Melbourne, where the supporters come from all demographics and all ethnic classes. Whilst its true immigrants will bring their football codes with them and this accounts for much of soccer’s growth in recent times, many also take an interest in the local game.

I guess in Melbourne you could argue they have little choice but the Melbourne obsession does brings it’s rewards particularly as Melbourne is getting more that its share of the nation’s immigrants these days.

Redb

p.s. 15 years ago you would never see a fan of Asian appearance in the crowd at the AFL now its common place.

Redb said  | August 11th 2008 @ 2:39pm | Report comment

Andrew,

Just a point nthat needs to tackled…you said:

“Also a important fact probably forgotten..

Australia’s net immigration is to increase to 1million people within 3 years”

Absolute bollocks….. Australia’s immigration intake is around 200,000 per year and we bulging at the seams trying to cope with that from a housing perspective, no way will we see an increase for the foreseeable future.

Redb

Redb said  | August 11th 2008 @ 2:56pm | Report comment

SJ,

Really!

Well you better get onto the Australian government and lodge an injunction to prevent the Australian Football League from using the term Australian Football in the title of its competition. Good luck with that.

If you have a look around a listing of sports also on this website it is shown as;

Australian football (AFL)
Football - mens (soccer mens)
Football - womens

So whilst your quick to claim victory I wouldn’t be so sure that soccer will now be referred to as Australian football, especially when talking about Australian football and soccer in the one breath in Australia.

Stop being so pedantic.

Redb

Andrew said  | August 11th 2008 @ 2:58pm | Report comment

Redbd,

Do your homework before posting nonsense:

Source here: http://www.smh.com.au/news/paul-sheehan/and-the-challenge-of-migration/2008/08/03/1217701846375.html

Reason for high migrant uptake of AFL is because they had no other sport to follow.. As you recall the melbourne teams in the NSL were only for 2 ethnic groups. We now have the HAL which has cut its ties with the ethnic traditions and allows a whole new market of supporters.

Anyway.. I dont even know why we are arguing. The evidence is overwhelming. Gen-y preference, play participation rates, a HAL that everyone can support, high immigration over the forseeable future = Football as the dominate sport in the next 30 years.

Michael C said  | August 11th 2008 @ 3:49pm | Report comment

Slippery Jim -

you said “May I gently re-state my point that our sport is called “Football”, ”

Well, so is mine, so is American Football (even if we try to call it ‘Grid Iron’), so is Gaelic Football, so is Canadian Football….so is Rugby Football…….what’s your point? That you don’t know what type of football it is?

ON the topic of incorrect usage.

It seems to me that the correct term is still ‘Association Football’…..and that it is purely laziness (mixed with a dash of self importance) that sees the ‘Association’ dropped off in preference for laying claim to (true) ‘Football’.

The wiki quote (I’m not using as a proof - so, don’t worry) -
“The term ‘Association football’ is rarely used today, though some clubs still use Association Football Club (”AFC”) in their names . ”

illustrates my point, that the correct usage is fading as soccer people try to gain exclusivity over ‘Football’ via the back door - -i.e. proof via ommission?? A little gutless - but, obviously they feel that if enough people get something wrong for long enough then one day all those wrongs will make it right.

I point to the official FIFA laws of the game:
http://www.thefa.com/NR/rdonlyres/095F9568-466D-4D71-ABF5-C1253A1C28FD/122272/FIFALaws2007_08_book.pdf

“Laws of Association Football 2007/2008″

“Authorised by the International Football Association Board”

“Published by Fédération Internationale de Football Association”

seems to me, that, there’s still enough proof of the underlying correctness of NOT referring to it purely as ‘Football’, but rather as ‘Association Football’ - - -however, again, there are those trying to claim otherwise.

Those of us here arguing against soccer as football - - are in part doing so to protect correct usage. And to avoid being bullied by the biggest player in town. World Soccer - the sporting microsoft. Or the Sporting equivalent of Cadbury - trying to lay claim to the colour purple……….hmmmm, Purple (as HOmer would say, “That’s a fruit”)……..so, the APMFA…..the Australia Purple Microsoft Football Association………

Slippery Jim said  | August 11th 2008 @ 4:02pm | Report comment

Michael C, you are absolutely spot on, Association football is the correct specific term. I agree. Wholeheartedly. Well done.

The trouble with being overly particular is you end up looking a bit cuckoo, I mean, nobody in their right mind calls their car an “automobile”, nor a pram a “perambulator” nor a bus an “omnibus” in common usage, not unless they are a bit peculiar.

So by all means, refer to the round call code as “Association Football” if you like, but don’t be surprised if people think you’re a bit ‘touched in the head”

Slippery Jim said  | August 11th 2008 @ 4:12pm | Report comment

Redb, Maybe it’s just me that finds it ugly, I know female friends of mine from the US enjoy watching AFL purely for what they like to feel is the eye candy (a bit like me with women’s hockey). Can’t see it myself, but obviously they find something attractive about meatheads in tight shorts…I’m assuming you are attracted to something similar?

Redb said  | August 11th 2008 @ 4:14pm | Report comment

Andrew,

Did you inadvertently provide the wrong link? this one quotes:

“Did you know the migration program for 2008-09 has set a target of 190,300 places”

You said: “Reason for high migrant uptake of AFL is because they had no other sport to follow.”

Yes we have a different type of scanner in the immigration section of Melbourne airport - it is based on the Harry Potter selection of Houses at Hogwarts. It scans and automaticially infuses the unsuspecting immigrant with an AFL team to follow. Concurrently it runs a IQ test and assigns those in the lower deciles with a mind implanted magpie. Or perhaps a Victory logo.

Redb

Koala Bear said  | August 11th 2008 @ 4:38pm | Report comment

Well it looks like only 2 out of the 10 English speaking countries call their Real Football code Socca.. According to the Associations list on the FIFA web site of registered Ltd associations .. All are called Football….. except 2 guess who…?

England
The Football Association Ltd.
25 Soho Square LONDON W1D 4FA

The Scottish Football Association
Hampden Park GLASGOW G42 9AY

Football Federation Australia Limited
Level 7 26 College Street Locked bag A4071 (Sydney South NSW 1235) SYDNEY NSW 2000

South African Football Association
125 Samuel Evans Road Aeroton JOHANNESBURG

The Football Association of Ireland
National Sports Campus, Abbotstown DUBLIN 15

Irish Football Association Ltd.
20 Windsor Avenue BELFAST BT9 6EG

The Canadian Soccer Association
Place Soccer Canada 237 Metcalfe Street OTTAWA ONT K2P 1R2

US Soccer Federation
US Soccer House 1801 S. Prairie Avenue CHICAGO IL 60616

The Football Association of Wales, Ltd
11 / 12 Neptune Court Vanguard Way CARDIFF CF24 5PJ

New Zealand Football
North Harbour Stadium Oteha Valley Road P.O. Box 301 043 ALBANY

~~~~~~~
KB

True Tah said  | August 11th 2008 @ 4:53pm | Report comment

Koala Bear,

in South Africa futbol is still referred to as soccer

The top futbol league PSL standards for Premier Soccer League.

Koala Bear said  | August 11th 2008 @ 5:29pm | Report comment

True Tah,
maybe to the white Africana Rugby community its Socca but I would say the black population have quickly picked up on the term “Football”…

You should watch more SBS (The world game) with “Futbol Montial” (SP) all the kid are calling it Football when they are on camera.. go with the flow.. my boy..

~~~~~~~~
KB

Pippinu said  | August 11th 2008 @ 5:38pm | Report comment

The World Cup is the biggest trophy in the World, and soccer is the biggest game in the World - but that tells me that it should be funding itself many times over - soccer doesn’t need any Government funding - and to seek it is an admission of failure.

Australian Football is celebrating 150 years, and over that time it has barely received a cent in direct Government funding of any description, indeed, it has contributed mightily to the upkeep of many of the nation’s great stadiums.

Koala Bear said  | August 11th 2008 @ 6:03pm | Report comment

Comrade C,
more grubbier to try and steal a name belonging to another nation. I shall not condone such actions .. It seems the French are much smarter than the English in reclaiming an important name from their Football History.. What do they call it, intellectual ownership..? hmmm now Marn Grook a good start to for an International Organisation.. Seize the moment Comrade.. and forget your evil carpet bagging ways..

~~~~~~~
KB

Redb said  | August 11th 2008 @ 7:59pm | Report comment

SJ,

A soccer fan insinuating that the AFL is girlie is like Bin Laden suggesting the Samoan Peoples Front are too radical. Seriously, the AFL is lot of tougher than soccer dont even go there your just demonstrating your ignorance and hypocrisy.

Redb

jimbo said  | August 11th 2008 @ 10:18pm | Report comment

The Vic State government alone has contributed 39.5 million (10.5M plus 23M plus 6M) to Victorian AFL Clubs in the past 2 years.
http://www.dpc.vic.gov.au/domino/Web_Notes/newmedia.nsf/798c8b072d117a01ca256c8c0019bb01/ff5cc4b4150efb57ca25740f007a8ad1!OpenDocument

The money is slated as “Community Projects” but is used exclusively by the AFL clubs to develop their grounds, gymnasiums, swimming pools and training facilities.

When is a government handout to AFL clubs not a government handout???
Why don’t the mega rich AFL Commission pay for these improvements at AFL Clubs and not the taxpayers???

True Tah said  | August 12th 2008 @ 8:16am | Report comment

KB,

a lot of the black population in South Africa still refer to futbol as soccer.

In fact, the main stadium for the 2010 World Cup is affectionately termed “Soccer City”, although I believe the official name is First National Bank Stadium.

Redb said  | August 12th 2008 @ 9:23am | Report comment

Towser,

That is not entirely correct of all codes.

The AFL has poured funds into the redevelopment of the MCG twice in the last 20 years. It has also contributed funds to Telstra Dome and will indeed buy Telstra Dome in a few years (not sure of exact date).

Redb

Redb said  | August 12th 2008 @ 9:31am | Report comment

Jimbo,

“Why don’t the mega rich AFL Commission pay for these improvements at AFL Clubs and not the taxpayers???”

Your not a Victorian tax payer and have no say.

Redb

Towser said  | August 12th 2008 @ 9:56am | Report comment

Redb

I’m not talking about codes I’m talking about clubs. Very different in my book. The FA in England do many things & I,m sure are rich enough as an organisation to put cash into projects. Personally I couldn’t care less to be honest. When it comes to the sport of football my first port of call is Sheffield Wednesday. If they didn’t own their own ground (like their cross town rivals United) I would consider them a parasite. The organisation is an administrator of a sport not the sport itself. Sure it can be good or bad but the essence of any professional team is generated from its support ,the people. The people dont support the AFL commission,most I’m sure couldn’t care less . They support a club. Their club does not own their own ground after 150 years. I see that in the terms were using here, as parasitic. They have to rely on somebody else to exist be that councils or the mob who administrate the game. Same as the A-League NRL RU etc.

Redb said  | August 12th 2008 @ 10:25am | Report comment

Towser,

Well I’m talking about codes and government handouts. I’m also rebutting a soccer fan who can hardly take the high ground in Australia when soccer uses facilties for its major domestic competition, built without a cent of its own money and in fact is partly funded by tax payers dollars in many ways. Just a little hypocritical.

Redb

Michael C said  | August 12th 2008 @ 10:34am | Report comment

Redb -

that’s why I reckon all soccer fans, who enter the MCG for any sold out WC qualifier or the like - should be levied $5 to contribute directly to either the AFL or MCC as a gesture of gratitude for the use of such a facility that their game in this country could never (thus far) on it’s own warrant.

And the only reason we could contemplate soccer warranting it going forward is largely, primarily, due to the interferance from Govt to restructure a leaky boat - - and to push the game NOT on the basis of domestic merit, but on (apparently) the premise of international ‘networking’.

Hardly reason for soccer folk to jump up and down on any moral soap box or high horse.

Redb said  | August 12th 2008 @ 10:58am | Report comment

MC,

Not sure you could charge them a levy, I guess that is recouped by the Stadium fee paid by FFA (Futbol Federation Australia) to host the match?

Applaud the sentiment though

Redb

Towser said  | August 12th 2008 @ 11:04am | Report comment

Michael C

Irrelevant when arrangements began. Clubs do not own there own grounds so AFL clubs like A-League clubs are parasites relying on others from the beginning.
RE AAmi stadium.
I’ll take your word re the SANFL. In a sense means nothing. In a sense I own the pub down the street . I drink there all the time. Show me the bit of paper that says I own the pub. If I did own it I could throw anybody I wanted out bar them for life.
In other words I control my own destiny. I earned the right to own the pub so I do what I want according to my rules.
If the Adelaide Crows owned the AAMi stadium nobody could dictate to them. All gate takings are theirs. Or If say for instance ,the SANFL wanted to put another sport or a rock concert on just prior to a game therefore ruining the ground for the Crows. The Crows cant say no.
This may not happen as much in the AFL states (you would know better than I) but it certainly happens in QLD. The Roar have had Several rock concerts at Suncorp before a match & theres always the perennial problem of all sports who use Suncorp juggling fixtures every year the ground churned up & paying exorbitant hiring rights to the stadium trust. The Newcastle Jets complained about the Knights only this week getting more training time than them on Energy Australia stadium. Theyve no right to complain but neither has the Knights, Neither own the ground . Their both parasites reliant on the whim of others. Own your own ground & theres more money in your own(the clubs)pocket.
Own your own ground depending on your own endeavours & success & you can build bigger & better stadiums for your fans your club. Who gives a stuff what the governing body does.
Arsenal Manu arent as big as they are by chance . They had a solid foundation in the first place. Owning their own ground.
This allowed them to keep building & now they own bigger grounds to keep pumping money into their coffers not some administrative body,stadium company or council.
So no unless a club owns its own ground to me they are a parasite reliant on others.

Redb

Personally I see the argument as one & the same thing. Both sides of the fence are kettles calling the pot black. Neither has the moral high ground.

Slippery Jim said  | August 12th 2008 @ 11:31am | Report comment

True Tah, the English invented the game, without which the Latino’s would have nothing. They also have the best football league in the world in the EPL. Therefore the English “football” is the rightful name, and is in fact the world wide name in common usage. Your loony theory exposes your ignorance of football…even if I were to humour you re your pointless language speaking argument, you are still incorrect:

Rank Language Number of Speakers
1 Chinese (Mandarin) 1,000,000,000 +
2 English 508,000,000
3 Hindustani (Hindi and Urdu) 497,000,000
4 Spanish 392,000,000
5 Russian 277,000,000
6 Arabic 246,000,000
7 Bengali 211,000,000
8 Portuguese 191,000,000

The day the world calls it “futbol” is the day Satan has to drive to work in a snowplow

Redb said  | August 12th 2008 @ 11:45am | Report comment

Yeah I’m happy with futbol, definitely better than soccer.

Redb

Redb said  | August 12th 2008 @ 11:47am | Report comment

Jimbo,

Well why don’t you cry about it.

What’s your problem?, jealous?, why do you care?

Redb

Andrew said  | August 12th 2008 @ 11:57am | Report comment

redb yeah it was AFL’s injection of fund into ANZ stadium which has ruined the stadium. Ask any RL, Football or Union supporter and they will tell you that unless the stadium is packed, it lacks atmosphere. All to do with the stupid oval shape, which should have been fixed post olympics.

ANZ stadium will need to rethink and revist this as the fans are preferring to watch games at home.
Lets face it, one code, AFL, ruins the atmosphere of the other codes.

Lets hope it doesnt continue.. Getting the WC will be a blessing as they will have to build more RL/Union and Football friendly grounds.

Redb said  | August 12th 2008 @ 12:06pm | Report comment

Andrew,

Rubbish. ANZ can reconfigure to a rectangle for SOO games its probably the el cheapo Futbol Federation Australia that dont pay for the wings to be brought in closer to the ‘action’.

The existing grandstands on the wings have not been altered, the nose bleed section is still the nose bleed section. The stadium’s seating angle reclines too far back, that is the problem. If you look at the MCG or Telstra Dome (probably Suncorp) the seating of the upper decks is much closer to the ground. ANZ structurally is at fault it does not have the amphitheatre benefits of the MCG.

Big crowds will of course help the atmosphere of any game/code, the problem with ‘ground ball’ games is they lack spectacle from a distance, better on TV.

Redb

Michael C said  | August 12th 2008 @ 12:11pm | Report comment

Jimbo -

there’s a lot of anger there.

you’re talking about the ‘AFL community’ as if it’s some minority that’s getting more than it’s share - - and you’re talking with respect to Vic, WA and SA. Where, the AFL community is anything BUT the minority - both now, and the last 100 years?!?!?

Where else should the money go?

Melbourne - - the AFL suggests a boutique 3rd stadium might be needed. Brumby says no.
And yet, for the 10 Melb/Geel teams, the State Govt has done stuff all.

You single out the COLLECTIVE sum of ‘funding grants’ across a group of 10 clubs. That represent combined over 1000 years of history,
and, combined over 300,000 club members

and, you begrudge that - spread over 10 clubs - that $39.5mill - equates to $4mill a piece. Over 2 the last 2 years PLUS the future period of the funding referred to.

That is, in the modern context - chicken feed.

Compared to $300 mill for a rectangle venue for a combined total of maybe 30,000 members for MVFC and Storm. Storm, the privately owned - by News Ltd - club the represents a code that has perhaps only in the last couple of years made any effort to do anything at ‘grass roots’. MVFC, another privately owned enterprise - perfectly well catered for at TD - - - the venue the State Govt couldn’t afford to contribute to.
Storm - perfectly well catered for at Olympic Park and if need be at TD.

And what’s the govt do……..and how the heck is a free stadium to these 2 teams, 2 codes, at all representative of the wishes of the Vic tax payers.

Don’t you speak on behalf of me!! You’re talking absolute rot….grasping at a single headline without at all acknowledging the co-funding of the community partnerships. You seem to have no interest in the level of AFL and club commitment to these projects, you seem to have no interest in the community access components of these projects.

And - - after all, you seem to have no interest in the vital part that the AFL and footy in general plays in our ‘Mexican’ cities. The return to the state far outweights the govt outlay.

It you’re going to complain about this - - then, it really shows how narrow your focus is.

I’m still waiting to see how much money News Ltd, FFA, NRL, MVFC, Storm are going to be contributing to the new rectangle stadium…………..oh……hang on, nothing.

Gee.

btw -

your own link illustrated the following:
$0.5 million to help St.Kilda open up Moorabbin reserve facilities for community access.

$0.5 million for multi-court community indoor sports facility at Whitten Oval

$1 million for new water recycling technology at Waverley Park

and the $0.5 million at the Lexus centre, shared with and co-benefitting Collingwood FC AND the MElbourne Vixens….

……yes, evil, evil parasitic projects all those.

You didn’t even READ the article!!!! You can’t have.

True Tah said  | August 12th 2008 @ 12:32pm | Report comment

SJ,

the body responsible for running the game FIFA is in French…therefore its only fitting that the other great latino languages fit in there somewhere.

It was the English who were responsible for calling futbol soccer…as Australia was once a part of the Empire, we followed suit…as Redb pointed out, the best players tend to be products of South American futbol…as someone whose interest in futbol is limited to the Futbolroos, I would be ‘ignorant’ as you say, but I know who Pele was, Maradonna and Alfredo di Stefano are, plus Ronaldinho, Ronaldo…I dont know of any Pommy guys you would mention in the same sort of vein as these lot.

Slippery Jim said  | August 12th 2008 @ 12:44pm | Report comment

Redb, I know you are just trying to be contrary, since you hate the game anyhow, but please enlighten me, how exactly is the Spanish word any more “world” football than is the English word?

Especially in view of the fact that nearly twice as many people speak English, and they invented the game in London.

And were does that leave the Portuguese-speaking Brazilians (including Pele, KB) who use a different word for the game and are historically the best footballers if you judge purely by number of world cups won?

If you want to get all “world game” on my arse, why not suggest using a universal language like Esperanto (which is a different word again)?

Wikipedia says: “The sport was exported by expatriate Britons to much of the rest of the world and many of these nations adopted the common English term into their own language.” Even in France it is called “le football”.

Sorry, but once again “You lose.”

Slippery Jim said  | August 12th 2008 @ 12:49pm | Report comment

Michael C, theres a lot of anger there…calm down son, you’ll pop a gasket.

Michael C said  | August 12th 2008 @ 12:51pm | Report comment

I thought Sepp Blatter had agreed that the Chinese invented the game 2000 years ago……….

Redb said  | August 12th 2008 @ 12:59pm | Report comment

True Tah,

There is golden balls Beckham - his pointed wife loves da futbol.

It’s like a weight has been lifted, for so long we’ve search for a better name than soccah and finally it’s here, futbol, tis beatiful really. ….(Robin Williams get out of here)

Redb

Michael C said  | August 12th 2008 @ 1:00pm | Report comment

KB -

‘indigenous’ -

most definitions define as originating in and characteristic of a particular region.

Soccer and Rugby seem that to England…….especially Rugby and the school of Rugby………

The ‘originating’ element is the curious one.

Is it the original notion of playing a game with a ball?

Is it the notion of kicking it? or carrying it? or throwing it? etc

Is it any rule in particular? Perhaps the Sheffield corner kick is a Sheffield indigenous rule.

Is it a ’set of rules’, a particular collection, such as each set of rules for Harrow, Cambridge, Eton, Rugby etc was indigenous to that school. Was there 1 rule at each school that was so unique as to make the rule set ‘indigenous’? or, was it simply the rule set itself - especially in relation to the physical environs of each given school.

People I reckon spend too much time with Aust footy looking for the ‘indigenous’ rule - - - when, in reality, it was the indigenous (regional) collection of rules that mattered.

Redb said  | August 12th 2008 @ 1:03pm | Report comment

KB,

Perhaps it’s time for the futbolroos! The Socceroos thing is old, olyroos is good, futbolroos is better.

Redb

Slippery Jim said  | August 12th 2008 @ 1:08pm | Report comment

True Tah, Brazilians would also know what you meant if you called it “football.” I know because I’ve been there and played it against them…your reference to whinging poms shows that perhaps ratial bias is the reason for your insistance on what we call it, rather than common sense.

Redb said  | August 12th 2008 @ 1:16pm | Report comment

KB,

your starting to sound like Sam Newman.

Redb

Koala Bear said  | August 12th 2008 @ 1:33pm | Report comment

Comrade C,
“Association Football” is not the registered name of “FIFA”, and I have said it has a reference to “Association Football” only for the countries that have codes which are more popular than “Football” to help the philistines with their understand of the different rules, that they may, or not be familiar with .. We aim to embrace, even those who steal from us. “Association Football” is not the proper registered name of the “Official FIFA web site” or any other of the “Football Association Members” bar two look back to my last post on that account.. Comrade, I urge you to embrace the name you gallantly argued for “Marn Grook” (or the translation to English “Man Ball” it is more appropriate for you Vics). Don’t try to be something you are not…

~~~~~~
KB

Redb said  | August 12th 2008 @ 1:43pm | Report comment

On the contrary,

futbol for soccer has far more credence than marn grook for AFL.

Ole Ole Ole

Redb

Towser said  | August 12th 2008 @ 1:47pm | Report comment

Michael C

Re Sepp Blatter & the Chinese. That comment would have occurred I suppose at the pre-olympic dinner in Beijing.
Now when he was in Sheffield to celebrate Sheffield FC’s 150th birthday last November ……….

As an indigenous Sheffielder the only kicking in a corner I did was to get myself out of the corner I’d backed myself into.

True Tah

The English invented football,the Latinos created it.
Bit like the English invented paint so what if when they painted it looked like a dogs breakfast.
Whereas when the Latinos saw paint they could actually paint and create a masterpiece of a goal as against the Olyroos the other night.
As far the name futbol & putting on a pom hat personally I couldnt care if it was called that better than the meaningless(to me Soccer). But I find it a tad hypocritical that in an English speaking country if you are calling it that, why not just call it its English equivalent football. Otherwise just keep calling it Soccer if that fits the bill for you.

Michael C said  | August 12th 2008 @ 1:54pm | Report comment

KB -

Sam Newman painted himself to look like Nicky Winmar……….

now………if you were planning to take on the ‘persona’ of an Australian indigenous player - - -would you NOT apply a little darkening make up? How juvenile is it to present that as a sign of …….racism?????

A lot of what Mr.Newman does is pretty average……….I don’t watch the show at all regularly, I used to only really watch it for the teams……….now, I generally hear them on SEN (radio), or via the internet.

Yes - Sam’s day has probably been and gone.

Michael C said  | August 12th 2008 @ 2:15pm | Report comment

KB -

I recognise that it IS the axis of evil of ’soccer federations’ who are trying to achieve un-alienable rights to the word ‘football’ (as used in the english language to describe any of the codes of ‘football’) via the process of saturation usage to justify their claim.

I therefore reject your ‘list’ as proof of anything. I wouldn’t dream of using AFL.com.au as proof of anything…….ever since soccer/RL fundamentalists vowed not to believe anything sourced from there. I have no idea why you think a link to the “Wales Football Associaton” means anything?? I can forward you countless links to “Football Leagues” the world over that play ‘Australian Football’………..they have ‘football’ in the name…….what’s that prove?

The list I provided, and I can include website links as well - was independant.

It was newspaper sport section websites, and other news/info organisations - - - and, overwhelming it showed that England, Scotland and Sydney stand alone.

All the rot you & your soccer jihadist mates present is simply proof of your dream for an ‘ends’, and your ‘means’ is hardly noble, nor delicate.

I again prefer to side with the majority of the English speaking world - - which regards ’soccer’ as a fine reference to ‘Association football’ because
A. “Association football” is too long for a webpage tab
B. “Football” is a generic term
C. everyone knows what soccer refers to

just as why in Australia “AFL” is so often used - - not technically correct, but, everyone knows what it means.

Michael C said  | August 12th 2008 @ 2:27pm | Report comment

Towser -

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-17081.html

Blatter recognises China as the birthplace of football

July 16, 2004
BEIJING (AFP) - FIFA chief Sepp Blatter has acknowledged that football has its roots in China, declaring it the birthplace of the glorious game.

At a football expo in Beijing, where he is attending the Asian Cup finals, Blatter said FIFA concurs with the China Football Association (CFA) that the game originated in Zibo, in eastern Shandong province, the China Daily reported Friday.

Experts on sports history and archaeology also attended the expo, outlining the origins of the game 2,300 years ago when Zibo was part of the ancient Qi kingdom.

————–

so, what’s the correct Chinese term for it? that we should all follow the 1.2 or 1.3 billion Chinese folk that dwarfs the ‘english’ speaking world.

Michael C said  | August 12th 2008 @ 2:43pm | Report comment

KB -

and the AFL - largely at the instigation of Winmar and Long - has lead the way in Australia on racial vilification……….no issues there.

The fact that Newman painted his face shouldn’t be the issue - - more the way he THEN behaved, i.e. providing the context. That’s all.

In the new PC world, it was all somewhat foolhardy………….although…………again, that seems the purpose.

I’ll tell you one thing, what seems silly is that the ‘FM’ radio ‘commedians’, ‘personality DJs’ etc - - so often offend 5 times worse than for example Sam may have - - in the wake, when it’s been ‘tabled’ that offence was taken…………I really wonder sometimes……………who really should be castigated………….the first dimwit…………or the dimwit followers? Sam Newman is like the new Pauline Hanson, everyone feels good about kicking him, not realising that in doing so, they portray themselves in a worse light.

Slippery Jim said  | August 12th 2008 @ 2:46pm | Report comment

Michael C, Blatter is a politician, he likes to tickle people’s ears, don’t take him too seriously…

Slippery Jim said  | August 12th 2008 @ 2:50pm | Report comment

Interestingly, Interlingua, an international language similar in concept to Esparanto, uses “football” as the word for Association football, lending the word “football” genuine world game status.

Redb said  | August 12th 2008 @ 2:58pm | Report comment

KB,

Nicky Winmar photo reproduced onto canvas to celebrate 150 years of footy ( left hand side of the painting).

http://afl.com.au/Portals/0/images/Jamie_Cooper_painting.jpg

Redb

Slippery Jim said  | August 12th 2008 @ 3:07pm | Report comment

KB, wooooooohhhooooohohohoohohooohoohohoohoososssssshhshhshhshhhshshhhhh sniff sniff - the smell of fear being blow on the winds of change!

Koala Bear said  | August 12th 2008 @ 3:19pm | Report comment

Michael C,
your last attempt to justify D*head Newman’s actions; then to blame the media-out-lets of exposing Newman as a person of questionable character, is again unbelievable, to even try to suggest it was no fault of Newman, but the fault of the media is extraordinary..

No need to reply as I am off to do something else back much later..

~~~~~~~
KB

Slippery Jim said  | August 12th 2008 @ 3:19pm | Report comment

Michael C, according to Redb’s kind post yesterday, the “National Sporting Organisations recognized by the Australian Sports Commission (as of Feb 2008) lists the name of your sport as “Australian Rules” - what the organisation calls themselves is irrelevent. I know Redb agrees with me.

Towser said  | August 12th 2008 @ 3:25pm | Report comment

Michael C
Thanks for the China link.
Cujuball
Sepp is right.
Now thats similar to the name of the game we played in Sheffield & I see the connection.
Whenever we kicked a ball through somebodys window,somebody had to knock on the door & ask
Cuju giv us ar ball back . To which the usual reply was cuju p*ss off un tel thi fatha e oars mi 2 quid.
Cujuball thats it.

Redb said  | August 12th 2008 @ 3:32pm | Report comment

So what is it cujuball or futbol?

Michael C said  | August 12th 2008 @ 3:44pm | Report comment

KB -

for when you do get back later.

’tis such a shame that about the only thing you reply to me about is Sammy Newman. Most other stuff you let thru to the keeper……

Towser -

cujuball………….brilliant. I like it…………..I might have to use it next time my neighbours kid whacks his cujuball through our window (over his x-bar, through the tree branches, over the fence, presumably downward via another branch and with sufficient force to send glass flying right across the family room through past the kitchen………….ruddy cujuballers practising for the top right corner in their backyard with houses (windows) behind their target!!!!…………….good grief Charlie Brown.

Redb said  | August 12th 2008 @ 3:52pm | Report comment

I have visions of a big dog with slobber hanging from its gape as it sinks its fangs further into the futbol… nice cuju

Michael C said  | August 12th 2008 @ 4:26pm | Report comment

Hey Redb,

what are all these “HEM”s the MV folk are on about? is that the “Home End Membership” or something.

A lot of folk are saying that too many Friday night games and the HEM is driving them away from buying a membership.

Koala Bear said  | August 12th 2008 @ 6:07pm | Report comment

Please ignore first post… this one is better… KB

Redb wrote: KB, your starting to sound like Sam Newman.

Michael C,
well you are defending the D*head Mate of yours and it was “Redb” who brought up his name here first; and called him a derogatory name on another thread. You didn’t take him to task, so what is your problem ? On this thread you have responded to a reply I made back to “Redb” not to you.. Again what is your problem with that ? Why then are you not taking “Redb” to task of what “Redb” has rightly so described your mate, as “Sleezy Sam Newman”. You also should take “Pippinu” to task when he was also applaud, with Caroline Wilson’s treatment at the hands of your mate, Sleezy D*Head Sam Newman. “Redb” and “Pipipinu’s” evaluation of your close D*Head mate, are in line with mine.

Lastly, I have been Arguing the case of Football as the rightful ownership of FIFA with you REMEMBER. By the pathway of Harrow, Sheffield, English FA, and to FIFA .. And of course the “Australian Football League” is not Representative of all codes in Australia, hijacked by AFL, but fortunately to no avail as we have the “Australian National Football Teams” which are entered into all FIFA and AFC tournaments, as the official registered name of Football Federation Australia…

But how does it feel that you’re out on a limb, with Sleezy Sammy Newman… When Redb, Pippinu, and me, have posted our disgust at various times of your mate Sleezy Sammy D*Head Newman, who also contributed to the Tassie’s Lass attempt on her life… Which we will never know for sure; but she was in a state of depression, when she made that interview on the Melb Footy Show.. Which in my view was a contributor factor and then the cover up with the Tassie Premier and Andrew Demitrou. You can forget about the Age press release.. saying differently.. Be careful who you defend or hang out with.. Comrade..

~~~~~
KB

ren said  | August 12th 2008 @ 9:41pm | Report comment

football simply means a games played on foot as opposed to a game played on horseback (polo)

So technically every code is correct and in need of a more definitive title. Hence we have Australian Football, Association Football and Rugby Football. Interestingly Rugby Football and Association Football blocked Rugby League from including the word football in their title when they registered themselves in England all those years ago.

For the sake of simplicity the most popular names in Australia (as we are in Australia) should be used for all sports.
Rugby Football (union) - Rugby
Association Football - Soccer
Australian Football - Football
Rugby League - league

As for the original article I think that the Olympics is more important for the Australian nation as a whole (though it would be nice to win the soccer world cup). To be a successful nation at the olympics you need to be exceptionally good across a whole range of sports, not just one. Within the olympics I would like to see Australia perform better in the Athletics (track and field according to the IOC). Aths was a sport we always performed well in but have dropped off in recent olympics.

Koala Bear said  | August 13th 2008 @ 8:17am | Report comment

Ren,
just to add to slippery Jim’s reply; there is no such thing as a Soccer World Cup .. Do your research and you’ll find that it is the FIFA Football World Cup..

Pippinu, of course I meant appalled at Sam Newmans antic. Dreadfully sorry about the typo..

~~~~~~~~
KB

Redb said  | August 13th 2008 @ 8:34am | Report comment

Sj,

being careless with the truth again.

I was pointing out that the Australian Govt (Rudd/Lowy made a tax pact) call soccer - football, and AFL - Australian Football. In fact the site had a couple of variations such are the messy international policies of our new PM.

To clarify, soccer will now be referred to as futbol.

AFL is known as Australian football or Aussie Rules or Australian Rules football. Go Aussie.

Redb

Slippery Jim said  | August 13th 2008 @ 9:15am | Report comment

Red - naughty naughty - you can’t back out now, your helpful link clearly states the SPORT is called “Australian Rules”, the ORGANIZATION is called “Australian Football League”.

Redb said  | August 13th 2008 @ 9:40am | Report comment

SJ,

You obviously were not paying full attention. As I also posted on the same website, the codes were also listed as Australian Football (AFL) and Football (soccer). Sorry last time i will use soccer- futbol for forever more.

This was to demonstrate your orignal claim that the PM always uses the term Australian football to mean Australian soccer (damn… futbol) .

So the rebuttal from the Aust Govt website clarified that indeed AFL is referred to as Australian Rules and Australian football and for political correctness soccer (oops) is referred to NOW as football. God knows our Ruddster loves to be politicially correct.

In Victoria, South OZ, West OZ, Tas- football is Australian football and confusingly now that soccer (I mean futbol) wants to use the same name as well.

Redb

True Tah said  | August 13th 2008 @ 9:44am | Report comment

SJ,

they could have advertisments featuring say the Victorian AFL sides and the Melbourne Victory.

It could be referred to as “futbol meets football”?

True Tah said  | August 13th 2008 @ 9:54am | Report comment

Redb the issue with that line is that when you describe the sport as futbol, everyone knows what you are talking about.

It would sort of make that ad line redundant.

I bet you could talk to an American and say futbol, and they would know exactly what you mean.

Koala Bear said  | August 13th 2008 @ 9:56am | Report comment

Redb,
Slippery Jim is correct, you posted up that information and as he said and I fully support his and your claim of Aussie Rules as the sport.. But secretly I wish you would adopt the spiritual name “Marn Grook” as it is the only true ancestry of the great Australian indigenous game affectionately known as “Grooky”. Furthermore I personally acknowledge you wanting to refer to Football as Futbol or Fuuty rather than Socca as now Comrade C, has now informed us all that “Socca” is the name of the “Nauru Association Football league… (Grooky) ” btw you are damn right about sleazy Sam…

~~~~~~~
KB

Slippery Jim said  | August 13th 2008 @ 10:02am | Report comment

True Tah, “Kangaroo” is a word stolen from Jonathon Foreignor??? Well, you learn something every day…

Actually, though, to be accurate, Spanish speakers use “futbol” which is a word borrowed from English, see my post from yesterday from Wikipedia for more information…

Big Kev said  | August 13th 2008 @ 10:17am | Report comment

Guys, this is such a ridiculous argument. As the world’s most dominant sport by a country mile. Football / Association Football / Soccer can call itself whatever it wishes but of course in some markets (USA, Aus etc) there are other sports called football so there may be a need to avoid confusion.

WRT “Australian Football” the global brand is “Aussie Rules” - most Western foreigners would know roughly what that is, but if you talk about Australian Football they will think “soccer”. It would be pretty dumb to not use the “Aussie Rules” moniker and build that brand.

As a massive “soccer” fan, I think it is pretty dumb that the soccer world has chosen to rebrand soccer to football, as in this market (Aus) there is plenty of confusion. Aussue Rules, League and Union are all referred to as football (or footie) and it just seems like a petty thing to do, given everyone knows what soccer is. Not sure there is any benefit but there certainly is a downside - confusion!

As for South Africa - the term is “Afrikaaner” not “Africana” and the sport is referred to as soccer in that part of the world, by the people that is. Only with the impending “Football World Cup” is the word football gaining any sort of traction. Soccer City is called that by the people and has been called that for at least 20 years. The old NSL (now PSL) has soccer in the title.
Soccer is the name of the game.

As for Clubs, it seems very odd to me that not even the major sporting teams in Aus own their own stadiums. All English football sides (vast majority) own their own grounds which they have redeveloped over the years. Ground sharing is a major no-no and most clubs would never contemplate it.

In South Africa the rugby unions also own their own stadiums. It seems strange that in Aus it has been taken on by the state/s or private enterprise, I guess due to the fact that there are many sports and the community interest is best served this way.

But then if that is the case, use of the facilities should be in line with the community interest. At the moment there is a big debate over state funding to improve suburban RL grounds, particularly Brookvale Oval. I am not sure how this serves anyone other than Manly fans… if the money was spend to develop more grounds that could be used for junior soccer / rugby / league, surely that is a far better use of public funds? if they want to develop their ground, which is only used for RL and to benefit their club, they should buy it privately and redevelop it themselves.

Of course teams that have facilities they can share with other clubs (Storm / Victory) have a better chance of getting public funding to improve their venues (state owned) as their is a wider communtiy benefit….

True Tah said  | August 13th 2008 @ 10:35am | Report comment

KB,

wasn’t sure what marngrook was or is…maybe I should refer to it as such? The Aboriginals have made significant contributions to the game, in a similar vein to the contributions made by Latinos to futbol.

SJ,

I didn’t say the word “kangaroo” was borrowed from a language by “Johnny Foreigner”, I said the English language has a habit of borrowing words from other languages, and kangaroo was one of those.

Big Kev,

Brookvale will never get upgraded…the reality is they are in a strong liberal area, and as a consequence of that they are neglected by the NSW Labour Government and taken for granted by the idiots running the Liberal Party…if it was a marginal area, both parties would be falling over each other to increase it to a 25,000 seat stadium.

I can’t see any other tenants in the near future for Brookie, Tahs and SFC already draw a lot of their supporters from the northern beaches, and unless either of these were interested in playing a few games there each year there would be no other tenants.

I don’t think soccer is a good name for the game, as KB alluded it is a nickname…having said that Im in one of four countries in the world where another sport contested usage of the word football…if I were a Brazilian or a Spaniard, this wouldn’t even be an issue, in fact futbol would probably be the only sport I would be aware of.

Re: rugby, I think its fantastic that the name is the same wherever you go in the world its a universal world, a lot of people might think its lame that the sport is named after where it supposebly originated from, but what else would you call it?

G MASTRO said  | August 13th 2008 @ 10:56am | Report comment

Slippery Jim.

If the Spanish played Australian Rules like they did soccer they would be laughed at, like most Australians laugh at the extremely soft almost homosexual theatrics of your average soccer blow hard. Imagine one of your European soccer tossers running with the flight of the ball, or filling the gap between a charging Power Forward, they would fill their pants.

HAHA, comparing soccer players with Australian rules players is pathetic. They dont cover the same distance in a game, recieve very very little physical pressure whats the point I would be here all day covering the atheltic prowess of Australian Football Players over Soccer players.

By the way I think the girls you know are trying to tell you something Jim. Grow some big hairy ones JIMBO!!

Slippery Jim said  | August 13th 2008 @ 11:06am | Report comment

Oops, I made a juvenile blunder in my Spanish translation of “Australian Rules” (I confess my Spanish is not as good as TT or Redb’s). Rather than “Sustantivo” it should be “Regla” as in “Regla Australiana”. Sounds much better.

Regla Australiana it is from now on…

KB, While translating the INDIGINOUS word “Marn Grook” into Spanish goes against my unerring (bar the minor and entirely forgivable slip up above) instinct for accuracy, since others on this blog insist on translating the indiginous word “Football” (as it is named by the indiginous creators of the game) into Spanish for reasons known only to themselves, I will make this exception for you.

“Marn Grook” literally means “Game Ball”, eg, if you are man of the match you are awarded the “Marn Grook”…therefore in Spanish this would be something like “Balón Juego”.

However I feel much more comfortable using the name given to the respective codes by the indiginous creators of the sport…

Redb said  | August 13th 2008 @ 11:08am | Report comment

KB,

I wouldn’t be sure the domestic futbol comp HAL is on the way up. Reports in today’s Melbourne AGE under the soccer section (I’ll write to correct them) have stated Melb Victory are concerned that they may not be able to fund youth league, etc. All this with Victory membership at 50% of last year.

Perhaps your use of marn grook (a different game) has offended football (AFL) fans in Melbourne and they have deserted the new futbol. Also in the news the old South Melb Hellas are looking to back the 2nd melb team - it would be shame if the new futbol went back to the old ’soccah’. Tell me again about that ladder

Redb

Andrew said  | August 13th 2008 @ 11:13am | Report comment

Hey G MASTRO

You must really be starting to panic realising that your sport, AFL, has limited room for growth.

AFL has zero opportunity to grow outside Australia. Lets face it this is what counts. There will be no olympics, world cups or even internationals. The thing you do against ireland is a bloody farce. Australians want to see real competition on the world stage and this cannot be delievered by AFL. This is why the game will start a downturn over the next few decades.

Football has MASSIVE growth potential up to 14 teams in the near term with asian champions league, which will inject massive dollars into Football over the next few years. Topped up by the asian cup and future world cups.

The amount of money that will be thrown footballs way in the future will grow expotentially and this is something that the AFL can not compete with.

How many billionaires have invested into AFL? I know in football you have lowy, and some guy that is bank rolling the gold coast bid. This is because it is seen as a MUCH better investment. Buy a team, get them in Asia, will do wonders for Australian business.

Koala Bear said  | August 13th 2008 @ 11:25am | Report comment

G Mastro,
Grooky lads play four quarters each qrt being 25 min total of 100min. On average 30 interchanges 18 players on the field only at one time and total ground covered is 90 klm avg.

Football lads play two halves 45 mins + overtime total 95 min. Only allowed 3 replacements 11 players on the field only at one time and total ground covered is 112 klm avg.. not only are the footballers more skillful but are much fitter.. using every part of their bodies to control the ball including hands if you want to include goalkeepers… predominately played with the ball, control by the feet; that’s why it’s called Football ..

~~~~~~
KB

Andrew said  | August 13th 2008 @ 11:55am | Report comment

Mastro you are a fool.

I was stating that immigration would lead to even more growth in football. You missed an important point. Gen Y prefers football. Young parents prefer their children play football.

Can you not see the clear evidence that in the next 30 years, with clear growth, which brings money, gen y and their influence over the next 30 years that the sporting landscape in this country will have shifted.

This is the best thing that could ever happen! Wish It would happen today, but the a-league is only 3 years old, things take time to be profitable. AFL has had over 100 years We will only need around 10 or so.

Slippery Jim said  | August 13th 2008 @ 12:27pm | Report comment

Big Kev, the voice of reason, thank you.

Redb said  | August 13th 2008 @ 12:55pm | Report comment

G Mastro may have gone too far, but Slippery Jim was certainly treading on stupidity with his feminine insinuation of AFL, its players and fans. I resisted firing back as it just degenerates into farce.

Take it as fact Slippery Jim, playing Australian football is not without the need for courage and toughness. if you want to go down that path I’m afraid soccer (futbol) is the least tough of the football codes. Its just a ignorant and provocative line of reasoning which we can do wtihout on the Roar.

Big Kev,

Gee we’re going down some well trodden paths, your surely not serious to compare the migration patterns of a few tens of thousand of Australians with the hundreds of million of Europeans who took futbol to the world.

Watchablity is most definitely in the eye of the beholder.

Redb

Redb said  | August 13th 2008 @ 1:08pm | Report comment

Andrew,

Get out of the wrong side of the bed, again.

HAL may only have ben going for 3 years, but this is yet another incarnation of domestic futbol in Australia. Have you forgotten about the NSL?

You also falsely make the assumption that 100% of Gen Y will only take an interest in futbol in the future in Australia. Your really do live a small world for a proponement of the world game. I can assure you AFL Auskick programs are full of 5 to 8 year olds who will want to grow up and play a game they where can use all four limbs. Some will also grow up to play rugby, some will stick with futbol as has always been the case.

AFL has .0000034% of the world football market, the growth rate over the last ten years would be higher but definitely not zero.

You name calling shows you have no argument, can you reply without being childish? If you can’t this will be my last reply to you.

Redb

Slippery Jim said  | August 13th 2008 @ 1:11pm | Report comment

“All this with Victory membership at 50% of last year”

MV membership figures are not down 50 per cent on last year because their recruiting drive still had some weeks to run.

While current figures stand at around 11,250 - about half of last season’s final total of 22,000 - the figure at the same stage last year was around 14,250 and a similar late surge of memberships is expected ahead of the Vics first home game at Telstra Dome against the Jest…

Redb said  | August 13th 2008 @ 1:49pm | Report comment

SJ,

You said: “Redb, the ignorant and provocative line of ‘reasoning’ re toughness of codes was raised by your esteemed and incredibly mature genius colleague G Mastro, not me. ”

Just correcting you, admit your wrong.

Melb Victory member numbers are well down at a time when you would have thought they should be building if a second Melb team is on the cards and futbol’s rise is to continue unabated. You probably missed it about about 6 months ago there was a big article in the Age newspaper in Melbourne with CEO of Victory suggesting Melb Victory will overtake the biggest AFL club membership wise. You may remember Dave posting an article that Victory is now the ninth or eight biggest club in Melbourne. The suggestion was there is momentum, you cannot spin those poor member numbers any other way than to suggest the momentum has stalled at best, declined at worst.

Redb

Redb said  | August 13th 2008 @ 1:53pm | Report comment

Sj,

By thew ay the enws of the 50% drop in Vcitory membership came from the Age which is a sponsor of the Victory. There is another article suggesting the club has to find funds to support youth teams,etc.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/soccer/victory-drive-to-find-new-members/2008/08/12/1218306897051.html

Redb

Andrew said  | August 13th 2008 @ 2:01pm | Report comment

Redb,

That article about the MVFC membership is taken out of context.

22,000 members last year DURING the season, versus a 12,000 ish membership PRE season.

If we look at the numbers this time last season they were sitting on 14k.

This was written in the SMH paper in todays sporting section. It has not made it online for quoting, but if you have the paper handy you can read it for yourself.

Andrew said  | August 13th 2008 @ 2:05pm | Report comment

ACtually I just found it.. down the bottom of this article

http://www.smh.com.au/news/a-league/kossie-set-to-bring-payne-against-victory/2008/08/12/1218306897882.html?page=2

G MASTRO said  | August 13th 2008 @ 2:32pm | Report comment

It seems I have stirred a few pots, but feel I’ve said nothing more out of line that the soccer boys on this site. Have a look at Slippery Jims stupid posts for one. Seems he like most every soccer peron I’ve meet can’t seem to take it.

And for all those soccer fans who keep pushing out figures of how the rest of the world watches soccer compared to Australian Football i have a simple answer for you. We all live in Australia, and soccer is not number 1 or even 2, that is an unequvical FACT. If you dont like it move.

Most of your replies are perceptions and hope.

I believe true Australians would take what they have developed and show it to the world. Maybe says something more about me.

Finally Andrew, all your points are just regurgitated soccer propaganda. Please for your own sake try and think for yourself
As a case in point look at these 2 points made by our genius friend ANDREW

Majority of Gen Y prefer Football over AFL.

Highest average wages of all sporting codes in the next 10-15 years due to Asian expansion (asian champions league) and new business investment, also a new Foxtel deal, and FTA. Proposed in 2011.

SHOW ME THE FACTS

LeftArmSpinner said  | August 13th 2008 @ 2:47pm | Report comment

Andrew, Don’t focus on AFL. The competition is Rugby Union.

Reasons are: global scope, Australia’s Winter team, stature of the regional and national team in its respective comps; corp support; improved playability and spectacle.

Challenges: Complete the break down of social barriers, grow regional comp (S14), Improve the pathway for players.

The ethnic problems you speak of were never ethnic. they never are. Ethnicity was used as the excuse, for unacceptable behaviour, just like any bunch of thugs, (IRA and Brits, Spain and ETA, etc.) Its simple, justify your actions by using some important cause, ethnicity, religion, nationality,etc. to win support of the masses.

The poor behaviour has not gone, just better hidden behind the excuse is that Football is so important!

Of course I speak of the minority, the crazed parent on the sideline, the pissed spectator, the bully in a gang at the game, the vandal after a loss, the ref sledger/abuser. I believe it is much more prevalent in Football than other sports and is a big problem for the future. AFL fans are passionate and obsessive, much more so than ARU, but not to the point of bad behaviour, win or lose. Its a cultural thing. The best sport at this is Golf, of course, excepting the US crowds sometimes!!!!

Michael C said  | August 14th 2008 @ 6:08am | Report comment

Leftarmspinner -

ooh, I reckon there has been a bit of that ‘violence’ that at very least was using ethnicity as an excuse - - however, having grown up playing junior footy totally bemused by the kids who seemed to look forward most to ‘the fight’ - - I’d suggest, for many personality types - - if the fight did not exist, they’d be compelled to create it.

Michael C said  | August 14th 2008 @ 6:57am | Report comment

Andrew - your points

1. New HAL which every Australian can now cheer on. No longer tied to the dark old days of the NSL where there clubs had ethnic ties.
we can wait and see on this front, for now, the largest city of Sydney is a good example of how it just doesn’t seem to be appealling to the broader community. Also, note that thus far, HAL has used (outside of NSW) 1 city(1 state)- 1 team…….that is planned to be watered down in Victoria (the one city that seems a success via attendance AND membership - - 2 very, very key indicators). With expanded league, and potentially spreading the ’soccer revenue’ more thinly - and with cost increasing via the youth league and womens league and definitively, on a ‘global scale’, player wages will go as high as it possible. btw - it still seems that many of the old school NSL folk prefer to restrict their interests at the state leagues. Maybe their kids will be ‘won over’. Is that more a threat to AFL or to state league soccer?
2. New Youth League to further give a stepping stone into the HAL
Yeah……what over it…..that just allows overseas clubs a better stage to view potential signings……but, true, the HAL suffered severely that fringe players….being out of phase with ‘local’ winter comps…..the fringe players had nothing to do if not playing - and given soccer has no interchange, even the subs would rarely get more than 10 mins game time. Will this allow HAL to surpass the AFL? Not real sure how you envisage that. For now, it’ll add costs to the HAL and make it more difficult for new — esp regionals — clubs to survive downturn years. The revenue raising capacity remains to be seen…..perhaps transfer fees to Chelsea and Man Utd?
3. Highest average wages of all sporting codes in the next 10-15 years due to Asian expansion (asian champions league) and new business investment, also a new Foxtel deal, and FTA. Proposed in 2011.
maybe, maybe this (ACL) will capture imagination of the country? Maybe if you get 4 teams auto qualification, it’ll engage enough of the country to build up sufficient interest - - presently, 2 teams, post grand final - - the non soccer fraternity switch off completely and focus on AFL or NRL seasons. Now - - the wages you’re talking about……might need huge broadcast rights? (FTA traditionally go nowhere near soccer - - bad for ads, just observe Ch.7 attitude to Olyroos, and also, overseas, the big comps are all on Pay tv - we don’t have the competition here at present in subscription providers, nor do we have the overwhelming demand for the ‘local’ product - esp in competition with EPL, Euros, Serie-A etc. Even the Socceroos, who MIGHT be considered for FTA, might get separated out of the HAL broadcast rights arrangement. And, if the wages do start to materialise, it’ll make it very, very hard for the regionals to survive…..perhaps you hope that CCM, NJs, Nrth QLd, Canberra (should they come in) - that they will eventually be ‘managed’ out to allow for teams from metro Melb, Syd and Brissie??
4. Highest partipation rates of all codes. Juniours now finally have career progression.
over the total national footprint, but, in many cases 2nd in the state by state lists….so, first on a technicality. Soccer though has had very high participation rates for quite some time,…the challenge for soccer is retention….or at least talent identification. Good luck. Like a lot of kids, I was forced to play basketball before allowed to play footy…..soccer, basketball - doesn’t really matter, you can still take up footy at age 14 quite nicely and do very well thankyou very much. Going the other way with soccer - probably doesn’t work so well. Actually, some kids via a lengthy juniors, learn bad habits - it’s not so bad to be a ‘late starter’. We’ve often found very, very good footy players come out of multi discipline sporting backgrounds. I guess for soccer - - it’s down to Fozzies model, converting the 6 month a year 1 night a wk kids into 11 mnths, 3 nights a wk…….yuk!!! btw - there’s 2 sorts of participation, there’s exclusive, there’s multi sport shared, juniors kicking soccer balls and converting to footy a little later, perhaps doing auskick as well, and perhaps doing some schools footy….yeah…that’s okay.
5. Australia hosting the world cup in 2018 or 2022.
I severely doubt our chances for 2018 or 2022,…especially with (inc. 2010) the recent spate of Sth Hemisphere hosts - - and the new 12 yearly pseudo ‘cycle’….the Euros will want to get in for 2018, and for Asian growth,…China is the holy grail……..followed by India……Australia…pish posh!!!
6. High immigration proposed in the near term, over 1 million new people are due over the next 3 years. As football is the most popular sport in other countries it makes sense that most of our new friends will be interested in football as opposed to AFL.
Good luck on your desire to de mystify Australia by turning it into a suburb of Tokyo or Shanghai…….there’s others in Australia who fight to retain our characteristically unique attributes……so, perhaps we are at odds on this front…..I prefer for overseas folk to come to Australia and head off to the MCG and watch the footy as a uniquely Australian experience……….soccer….that’s everywhere, big deal!!
7. Best international competition which the AFL lacks.
and the lack of international competition means that the AFL club comp IS IT. No international benchmarks. We like it so un diminished that State of Origin got pushed aside…..unlike the NRL where the 3 match SoO series detracts from the club comp. The reality is that he lack of international competition allows the AFL, a bit like the NRL in the US - to RETAIN it’s position as the pre-eminant club competition that it is. Also, we don’t go losing players to other nations/leagues to better exchange rates or to ‘colourful’ billionaires destroying the fabric of ‘competitions’.
8. Majority of Gen Y prefer Football over AFL.
care to present your proof on this front? btw - 15 odd years ago, we heard the same arguments about basketball.
9. Parents prefer their kids to play Football over AFL as its safer.
’safer’, that’s a bit of a myth isn’t it? Waiting to be busted…..hip,ankle and knees are probably worse off in soccer due to the tackling (imagine how many broken legs there’d be without shin guards). And, it’s only a matter of time before a brain injury class action succeeds due to heading the ball over long careers……just google ‘brain damage headers’.

Redb said  | August 14th 2008 @ 8:23am | Report comment

SJ,

on the contrary, the post from Andrew was invited and therefore replied to. Glad you read the responses you may actually learn something.

Redb

Michael C said  | August 14th 2008 @ 9:00am | Report comment

SJ -

What? A 9 point post isn’t lengthy, but a point for point reply IS?

‘facts’…..Andrew was pretty light on facts, I’d say that his main facts were points 2 and 4. A couple of others were a little stretched.

Thinking further about it:
9. Parents prefer their kids to play Football over AFL as its safer.
well, soccer has its best participation by far in NSW…..therefore, would it not be more correct to say that parents prefer their kids to play soccer of RL and or RU?
7. Best international competition which the AFL lacks.
Being picky here, if I were to remove my AFL hat, I might suggest that the HAL relevant ‘international’ competition via the ACL is still pretty well in it’s early phases….and that RL might suggest that their international club competition even just with the winner of Superleague each year might be more highly regarded, let alone that the RU Super 14 folk might jump up and down a bit………………but……I don’t really care, I care so, so much more about North Melb beating Coll, Ess, Carl and Rich each year than just about anything else………the LAST thing I’d want is international crap stuffing around the AFL.

btw - I still don’t see the same style of bidding war for HAL broadcast rights - - as, it is highly unlikely to have a significant FTA component…..for some time yet, anyway. But - overseas examples suggest never. If the socceroos are added to the anti siphoning list, then that actually reduces the ‘bidding’ capacity by withdrawing Pay TV from that component. The Socceroos are ‘irregularly’ scheduled, i.e. they don’t play a ‘regular season’ - - so, that to a degree reduces value. The HAL, whilst a regular season, is Pay TV fodder, bad for FTA - as is soccer in general world wide - - and HAL competes with so much other soccer product……after all, there’s a whole world of it. Anyway, I’m yet to be convinced that HAL will be a broadcast ‘gold mine’………..the only person I’ve really heard trying to speak it up is a media seller (Harold Mitchell), for whom it is advantageous to speak it up. Obviously, some water to go under the bridge on that front yet.

Redb said  | August 14th 2008 @ 9:02am | Report comment

KB,

Apparently that the Italy V Cameroon match was as good as futbol gets.

Redb

Andrew said  | August 14th 2008 @ 9:22am | Report comment

Yeah you can smell the fear.

Most of what I posted was based on todays facts and projecting the trends in the next 30 years. The biggest change of the football front is a new and respected league. The NSL was never going to work, i never even attended an NSL game.

Lets face it, following sport is like fashion. We will copy what the rest of the world does. Australians love to compete on the world stage. See how successful we are at the olympics. Aussies love winners and backing their country. You dont get to do this with AFL and thats the biggest issue.

AFL has not had any serious competition outside of Queensland and NSW. It is fair to say without RL, AFL would have dominated all states. The difference now is the HAL. It will seriously challenge AFL over the next 30 years.

Yes the best players will leave HAL for europe, but we will still get to see those players ply their trade in the HAL at some stage. Those players that leave get replaced by new and exciting talent. Think the likes of payne, zullo or oar. These guys will probably set the HAL alight this year, and they are all under 20.

Also, IMO, AFL is unwatchable on TV.. I have never seen it live, but I do hear from others that it is better live. This also is an issue as football is fantastic on the telly and this is where alot of the money comes from.

Crowd figures have increased Year on year in the HAL. SO lets sit back and see how it peforms this year, before it expands into North Queensland and the Gold Coast. This move, and if successful which i am sure it will be, will send alarm bells ringing in the AFL world.

Redb said  | August 14th 2008 @ 9:28am | Report comment

KB,

no, no, it was the game with the five rings symbols everywhere. The country’s young ‘uns of the reigning World Cup versus a former Olympic Gold medalist country. This was good futbol yes?

Redb

Andrew said  | August 14th 2008 @ 9:40am | Report comment

I was reading something the other day and it stated that Australia can only support 2 football codes. I guess what this means is that only 2 codes can be financially viable.

The big question is which 2 codes will this be going into the future? The obvious answer would be Football and AFL.. However Union has the appeal on the International front. If RL and Union was to merge then this would definately help it’s cause.

I found some participation rates for 2007 & 2006. The 2006 results are bracketed. As you can see the AFL declined by 80,000 and football grew by a similiar margin.

Football 697,400 (614,300)

AFL 455,800 (536,200)

Rugby League 209,800 (195,900)

Rugby Union 165,300 (165,900)

I would be interested in seeing some figures for 2008 to see if AFL declined further or clawed its way back. These figures are worrying for AFL, and RL, but I guess we cant draw too many conclusions based on just 2 years.

Slippery Jim said  | August 14th 2008 @ 9:49am | Report comment

Regla Australiana/Balón Juego is losing participants? Why am I not surpristed. The explanation is simple - those 80,000 have had the good sense to jump in the life rafts, sadly the rest of the 455,000 will have to cling to the flotsam and jetsam left floating around when the good ship Titanic goes down…

Redb said  | August 14th 2008 @ 9:51am | Report comment

Andrew,

“The difference now is the HAL. It will seriously challenge AFL over the next 30 years”. Good to see youv’e toned down your rhetoric.

Yes AFL is better live and this is why Melbourne is an interesting test of the HAL. As you know 50% of Melbourne Victory members are also AFL members. After 3 years of HAL, AFL memberhip has gone up, Melbourne Victory membership has gone down. Some of this is explained by success on the field but the fans have spoken. So do Melbourne Victory have keep winning every year to maintain momentum? That is clearly not going to work especially as the HAL expands and the player talent is spread with the salary cap.

I have at least sampled a live game of the A League, didn’t mind it. It was a nil all draw but did come away thinking fans will assess the spectacle of the two games and AFL is definitely a better spectacle. IMO better value for money.

So make whatever claims you like to make about the future. The facts are the AFL has five clubs alone in Melbourne with more than 40,000 members each ( that’s 200,000), the HAL with one club has 11,000, which may grow back to 20,000 for this season. If I were you I wouldn’t assume it will be a easy victory for the HAL over the AFL.

That may not be repeated in other places like Sydney or Brisbane perhaps and this is where the HAL is likely to make further inroads into rugby league and union territory. The AFL is also expanding into NSW and QLD, has the funds and junior development to hold its own. There are currently 41,000 registered juniors with AFL Auskick in NSW alone. The AFL is not without it’s own growth potential.

Redb

p.s. Technological improvements with mobile cameras, HD ,etc all bode well for better coverage of the AFL in the future. IMO its the major challenge to grow the game. TV currently does not show the speed, aerial spectacle and expansive nature of AFL.

Koala Bear said  | August 14th 2008 @ 10:05am | Report comment

True Tah,
do you really think someone from Nauru can pay his own way $10k ? to compete in a Cayton’s World Cup .. I mean to say most are scratching to find some food to eat.. Nay, I would say Australian tax payer funded dollars are involved somewhere … Go to the Grooky (AFL) website and there you will find an Aust. Government Sport logo proudly displayed on it.. Not saying it is wrong, but please do not treat us Football folk like fools…

~~~~~~
KB

True Tah said  | August 14th 2008 @ 10:12am | Report comment

KB,

I certainly supported the Olyroos in their efforts, unfortunately things didn’t go our way. These guys are representing our nation, and therefore they should get our support. While I do question including futbol in the Olympics, it is not my decision, my role is to support the athletes we do have there.

At the same time, I also respect amateur blokes travelling to our country at their own expense to represent their country in a sport which in all likelihood they probably got laughed at playing in their home country, and a sport which is one of Australia’s gifts to the world.

Im saying this as someone who is not a massive fan of AFL/marngrook or futbol, which I guess makes me part of a minority both here in Australia and as a member of the global body.

SJ sorry for the mistake on numbers, but I though Beckham was on close to $1m a week, I would have though the guys in the EPL would be on those amounts, they certainly live extravagantly.

Andrew said  | August 14th 2008 @ 10:17am | Report comment

Source is here : http://www.convictcreations.com/football/stuartpearson.html

If the codes merged it could only be RU, and not a hybrid? That is my understanding as RU has a proper international competition and will not change to adapt to an australian hybrid model.

If what this guy says is true about 2 codes long term then it will be interesting to see this unfold. 4 i guess is unsustainable, and 3 might be ok for the medium term. Hence the reason for the constant calls for RU and RL to merge.

Slippery Jim said  | August 14th 2008 @ 10:24am | Report comment

To be honest, stirring aside, there is no way I can see AFL or rugby league ever disappearing from our football landscape. I believe all codes will remain important to Australians, however some realignment and fluctuation in membership numbers will occur. It’s not surprising for the media to blow it up into a dramatic, if unrealistic issue…or for certain irresponsible bloggers.

Michael C said  | August 14th 2008 @ 10:30am | Report comment

Andrew -

I share your interest in that respect of the two Rugby codes in a marke the size of - well, really, half of Australia.

KB-
I agree re the tv coverage…………and, the reality is often you just see a person by themselves marking the ball without any understanding of the level of work required to actually get there. HD viewing options are much better, and large wide screen tvs - - alas, not at my place. In many respects, I still prefer the radio and my ‘mental picture’.

Going to a game live, I always take trannie, bino’s and these days theres 1 or 2 giant screens………it’s certainly a unique experience. Apparently one quite enjoyed by a good many who do so regularly (i.e. re the kpi’s of attendance and club memberships).

True Tah -

have you heard today about Mike Pyke - the Canadian international RU player who has signed with Sydney Swans for 2 years (Pyke, famous for a 90m solo try vs ABs in NZ last year and a pro at Montauban in France).

Andrew said  | August 14th 2008 @ 10:38am | Report comment

You have to remember the two states that the AFL have not captured also happen to account for over 11 million people. NSW has around 7 million people and Queensland has over 4million.
This is half, or more than half of the Australian population.

Which codes are capable of capturing this audience in the next 30 years?? AFL who have had 150 years to do this? Football’s HAL? or a new combined Code of RU an RL?

I tend to favour HAL and the combined Rugby codes. It could certainly go either way, but you guys need to realise the earth does not revovle around Victoria. I can’t see the AFL growing much more than it has. They wont put a team in Tasmania in the medium term, and crowd figures show that the Gold Coast isnt interested in AFL. A second sydney team would be poorly supported. Western sydney is a massive RL and Football stronghold. You just need to drive around the areas to see 99% of sporting grounds are for football.

Melbourne has to many AFL teams, just like RL in sydney.

Interesting times indeed.. Id say we are at the cross roads now. The actions taken, and the success of those actions in the next few years will determine the sporting landscape in this country in 30 years.

Andrew said  | August 14th 2008 @ 10:45am | Report comment

This article paints an interesting picture in what is happening in Tasmania. The landscape is changing there. This was an AFL strong hold.

http://www.abc.net.au/tasmania/stories/s1992773.htm

Michael C said  | August 14th 2008 @ 11:21am | Report comment

Andrew -

that data is based on a sample size of around 13.7K over age 15 across Australia.

obviously, on a limited sample size - - that requires extrapolation - - there’s a capacity for volatility - - mostly for those sports like AFL and the Rugby codes that DO NOT have ‘uniform’ national foot prints…………….well, in reality, soccer is weighted towards Sydney/NSW still too.

What that survey found, was that soccer participation was strongers in the 15-24 age group (13.7%), but, dropped to 3.9% in the 25-34 age group. There was still a very high rate of ‘unorganized’ participation………….whatever that means………….and mostly 0.6 times a week………….so, not even a full game!!

The figures also include males and females on that basis - so the extropolation on that point may be skewed too.

Anyway - an interesting element :

overall, women made up about 9% of the Aust Football component. For soccer, about 25%.
Participation OVERALL in the 15-24 age group - soccer, 392K of 697K - about 56% - Aust Footy 270K of 445K - about 60%.
And in the 25-34 age group, again, soccer - 113K of 697K - about 16% - to Aust Footy 91K of 445K, about 20%.

Aust Footy has relatively more participation where it counts (developmentally). Soccer kills Aust Footy 35 and over. 27+% vs 17+%.

Both RU and RL are almost non-existant outside of the 15-24 age group, both running at about 75% to total over 15 participation.

And at an ‘organised’ level, the Aust Footy total is 347K vs Soccer 442K. And in the 15-34 age groupings combined, the result is Aust Footy 295.1 vs soccer 306.3.

SO - taking into account that soccer is bigger in NSW and claims a better national spread - then Aust Footy, for the little half of Australia - is doing just fine thankyou very much. It is perhaps less likely to be played in what might be termed disorganised/social settings, and less likely to be played by large numbers of women.

Anyway - it probably suggests an efficiency in the AFL talent pathways, i.e. engaging kids into organised clubs/competitions. The challenge I reckon for soccer is to learn to use the resources already available to it a tad bit better. And, that, need not be at the expense of any other code - in the medium term. Soccer needs to become better organised, better structured………..and, glad to see, hopefully the youth league will do that, but….it’s a hard job top down, or bottom up - - good luck to you Andrew and your ‘new soccer’. Me, I’m comfortable that Australian Footy is going along okay - - no guarrantees, but, there never are……’smell the fear’…….hardly……….record crowds, record club members, ever increasing Auskick participation.

Michael C said  | August 14th 2008 @ 11:59am | Report comment

True Tah -

one thing for sure, this guy, should he succeed as a mature age conversion - - that opens up a whole new basket of worms for the Rugby codes in Australia.

But - it needs to be remembered, AFL did not go chasing - - it’s one thing to offer kids a variety of choice, it’s quite another going poaching players already established………..I really wonder how I’d feel if an RU or RL club tried to poach an AFL guy to play full back…………..although, I’m still a little surprised that they don’t seem to show the desire to……….but, I still reckon there’s too much ‘anti’ sentiment in Australia.

Andrew -

funny how that Tassie article, 12 months on- - Tassie footy and Tassie in general have grown some b#lls and are putting up a decent fight for an AFL team. I kinda hope they win out and do get one - and there have been articles on here looking at that, so ’nuff said here for now.

Michael C said  | August 14th 2008 @ 1:16pm | Report comment

True Tah

in the main, soccer players at the same height will be about 5-10kg lighter than AFL counterparts. In the AFL, in most cases, they will be 5-10kg lighter than Rugby counterparts.

With exceptions in all cases.

REcently I illustrated that Greg Inglis and Lance Franklin were very similar in so many respects, although Inglis carrys a little extra bulk.
Izzy Falou and Tom Hawkins at Geelong, same age, same size, Hawkins is struggling for a regular game at this stage of his development (also with injury).

With the increased pace of AFL in recent times, some players were finding they were playing about 5kg under their previous playing weight.

But - mostly - that’s one pre-season of sports specific conditioning - - not so much different gene pools.

btw - I have stated often that many great footy and rugby players came from Wagga - a city that shows the benefit of the best of both worlds. I often prefer kids with greater multi sports disciplines and experience, I reckon they are better at their final chosen sport.

In NZ, there are Rugby aspirants playing footy in the off season (better for them than cricket or soccer), in Canada, more and more Ice Hockey aspirants are playing footy in the off season (again, better than soccer or whatever else). It just seems in NSW that there’s so much hatred from Rugby towards footy that the cross benefits seem to get lost.

This Canadian fellow first had direct exposure via “Mick the Kick”, Michael Byrne, former AFL player (Melb, Syd, Haw) — who has had a long career as a specialist kicking coach in RU (esp the All Blacks). It just frustrates me that in Australia, it seems all or nothing. If a few more Rugby hardliners were a little more open like yourself…..then, Sydney might instead of a ‘war of the codes’, might instead see the benefits of sustaining a niche level AFL community.

Michael C said  | August 14th 2008 @ 3:01pm | Report comment

Andrew -

The source of my data was the source quoted on convict creations that you yourself refered to. You can download the pdf file with all the breakdown on the data.

It’s one thing to report a single figure….it’s quite another to include ‘context’.

Just google “2006 ERASS Report Australian Sports Commission”

The convictcreations article you quoted was referring to the above survey (of 13,700 people nationwide) for ages 15 and over….stuff all to do with juniors (other than that 15-18 age group).

The figures clearly show that outside of NSW (Sydney effectively), that soccer still has quite some way to go to achieve your dreams of dominance.

So, please, investigate a little deeper please. You obviously had no real understanding of the numbers being presented……sheesh, the fellow on convict creations included the article reference, all you had to do was google it. Come on, if you’re seeking to spread ‘fear’, at least try to research your numbers a bit - - because, otherwise, grasping at straws implies your ’smell of desperation’.

Now - this last article - dated Jan 1, 2007.

“For boys, soccer dominates the traditional rugby lands — NSW, Queensland and the ACT. They have more than half of Australia’s population, but almost three-quarters of its junior soccer players.”

And the article paints an increase in soccer kids in SA, WA and NT—- that’s fine, AFL is up overall with the new found focus on NSW and QLD showing growth figures. What this doesn’t show is the auskick numbers - - and don’t discount that,it’s a critical program…………..that, actually, has been replacing a lot of out of school competitions - where in the past kids were playing team footy from age 6 and up, now, they’re more likely to remain in auskick programs a tad longer. So, I wouldn’t be overly dismayed on those numbers as an AFL person. Auskick, last figures were up to 161K, a 9% growth.

However, the good news is more kids KICKING balls in Rugby heartland, those soccer kids, like the basketballers, once they tire of soccer, there’ll be a good supply of 10-14 yr olds having a crack at footy.

No problem there.

btw - you seem to be seeking world domination, at the expense of all else. Do you not feel sad that perhaps soccer is keeping kids away from netball, athletics, swimming etc…..do you desire a mono-sporting culture in Australia?? How boring that’d be.

btw - your last reference for age group 5-14, with previous figures dating back to ‘97, there’s a whole lot of trending from the intervening period that isn’t there………for that sort of age group, a 9 year gap is fairly significant.

btw - with these stats for soccer overtaking footy in NT etc,………please look it up, are we talking boys age 5-14, or boys & girls aged 5-14 - - it’s actually not stated, but, on the over 15 yrs figures for NT, footy was at 6.4K to soccer 5.7K - but, for males, 5.6 vs 3.8.

As I said earlier, soccer has plenty of kids - - and if you can learn to develop them better - then fine…….there really haven’t been that many ‘poached’ by AFL as you put it - - effectively at age 14, 15, 16 - a lot of kids might choose sports for a host of reasons, playing with mates, their personal aptitude, offers of wealth etc. The fact that AFL talent pathways ARE able to absorb late changers and ‘nurture’ and develop them, that’s the key……..where as, going the other way at age 14, 15,16 - - it’s way, way too late to become a soccer star on the world stage (or, have you some examples?). It’s a bit like basketball, if you aren’t going to be a 7ft freak, is it worthwhile pushing excrement up that particular incline?

Andrew said  | August 14th 2008 @ 3:16pm | Report comment

Michael C you just dont get it do you.. You fail to read between the lines.

The trend is Football is diminishing the AFL playing numbers. This CANNOT be disputed.

With a proper management team in place, called the FFA, we are now exploiting the power of football and providing a pathway for juniors who take up the game to stay with the game.

Less AFL players in your ranks = less teams or less quality. Less quality, or less teams = less exposure to the public which in trun = less money not to mention less people be interested in AFL as more people have exposure to football.

Please, I urge you to just THINK abit before posting drivel. The facts CANNOT be disputed, AFL is in decline at the grass roots level and this is what matters. Over the next 30 years as I have been saying ALL along this is when it will start to hurt the game at the top level.

AFL is an Australian based competition only. It simply cannot compete with football. EVER. I am sorry to be so blunt but you guys are on some kinda cloud..

Football is not a craze which will die like basketball. Football is the number 1 game on earth. Australians want to compete with the world on the biggest stage of all. Kids want to be the next Harry Kewell playing for the biggest clubs in the world. They dont wanna be some no name AFL player who only people in VIC know.

These are the cold hard facts guys. You cannot compete in the future. Its over. Let it rest, and enjoy AFL for now. You guys have at least 10-15 years left at number 1.

After 2022 you are gone in my opinion *based on the fact we host the WC. Which sepp blatter has strongly said will our time.

Michael C said  | August 14th 2008 @ 3:25pm | Report comment

Andrew -

you have not much to illustrate that your dreams are becoming reality.

Other than soccer mums gaining a foothold.

Overall - in the important developmental age groups - AFL numbers are fine, we really don’t care about (my) the over 35 age group that makes up such a proportion of soccer participation…..soccer…the game grandad still plays.

I must admit that your dedication to the truth as presented by the FFA is wonderful, and your faith in soccer to steam roll all before it does you credit, as is your faith in believing the line accord to Sepp - ONLY when talking TOO Australians - rather than listening to his ’sales pitch’ to other competing parties - - he just doesn’t want another Brazil - - i.e. the winner is…..the only bidder left in the race for the last 4 months!!!!!!

But, no, I’ll listen to you - - I’ll give up watching footy and learn to enjoy nil all draws, learn that 90 minutes for zero goals is actually a good result because we didn’t lose and entertainment is for the boguns. I’ll learn that using ones head to propell a ball is actually good for your health and that I should encourage my kids to do it from a young age so that they become all the healthier…….

….yeah right!!!!!!

Andrew said  | August 14th 2008 @ 3:36pm | Report comment

Michael…. AGAIN.. you miss the point.. It is the junior playing numbers which matter the most. The AFL is losing ground, it is in decline. Decline is not good! Never has been never will be. If football numbers declined it be concerned, but it is booming year after year.

. Schools in Vic are seeing and increased demand for football over AFL. More football grounds are being built in areas like geelong as they cannot meet the demand. The landscape down there is changing my friend. I would expect NSW type figures to come out of Vic in the next 10-15 years.

You cant live in the same world about this anymore. Under Soccer Australia the management was woeful, boredering on corrupt. It was for this reason that AFL could easily poach Football juniors as they never saw a career progression out of playing under the old system.

Things have changed.. and now you will what I am saying unfold.. You can support any team you like. Its choice, which is a wonderful thing. I will also add it will be that same choice others make that puts AFL at number 2

Redb said  | August 14th 2008 @ 3:44pm | Report comment

True Tah,

Right on the money. Its about giving kids a choice and that goes for Vic, SA,WA as well. The kids will pick the sport they want to play.

At least In Australia they have more choices than many countries who only have futbol.

Redb

Michael C said  | August 14th 2008 @ 4:09pm | Report comment

Okay - of that ABS survey -

point 11 - Those children who participated in a recognised modified version of a sport have been recorded as participating in the adult version of that sport. For example, children who played Futsal were coded to indoor soccer.

That implies that Auskick WOULD be counted. Which means for an age group 5-8 figure of 70K, when the national auskick registrations is about 160K………….gives an indication of the margin for error.

You may know more around little tykes soccer programs actual numbers vs this survey.

Anyway, perhaps looking back to 1997, there might be a drop in footy numbers, but, we see from my previous post that I can show figures showing that soccer peaked in 2003 and has dropped back to so close the 2000 level that in real terms it’s either static or falling!!!!

But would I stake my life (or my code of footy) on this? No way.

Only fools pull selective info from these surveys, try to dress it up as cold hard fact - and expect others to follow blindly. You appear to be doing the reading between the lines and extending selectively plotted trend lines suddenly upward exponentially.

Redb said  | August 14th 2008 @ 4:13pm | Report comment

Andrew,

You live in world of absolutes. I’m getting a bit bored, so I’ll leave you with a thought:

Just like 160 odd years ago in England where some kids picked the ball and ran with it, so to will kids want to keep doing that in Australia.

Redb

Slippery Jim said  | August 14th 2008 @ 4:28pm | Report comment

Redb, name a single country that only has football as a sport, so that I can laugh at you some more

Michael C said  | August 14th 2008 @ 5:39pm | Report comment

Andrew -

Roy Masters loves to claim that AFL fudge their numbers via Auskick - - but, the ABS criteria allows it for certain metrics……..so, which way do you go? It’s simply that people need to understand the measures presented to them.

Auskick is now the prefered pathway towards under 9s club/team footy. It’s an introductory program, effectively, that originated back in 1976, so it’s been refined over a good period of time now.

It’s set the early standard in Australia for these sorts of programs…..modified rules, skills focus, sessions followed by a ‘game’…….over 100 kids each game at Telstra Dome are out in the middle playing either ‘auskick’ games or the main ‘little league’ game for the older kids. It’s very much based on parental involvement.

It is structured, and regular during the footy season. It’s a bit like a weekly clinic followed by the modified game - the results of which aren’t the point. So, it’s certainly not a once off clinic, but, it’s not a competitive league - - it’s in the middle.

http://www.ausport.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/142563/ERASS_2006_annual_report_full1.pdf

btw - - organised vs non-organized

Organised sport - deemed to be “organised by a club, association, fitness centre or other type of organisation”.
4.5 mill (sport or recreation club or association)
2.3 mill (fitness, leisure or indoor sports centre)
0.57 mill (school)
0.14 mill (work)

non-organised activities were predominantly walking for fitness, cycling for fitness, fishing, running for fitness, surf sports, swimming, and bushwalking.

I gather therefore, that having a kick of the footy during recess at school won’t count.

Now - for the figures in the ABS survey, there is an overlap, such that soccer with 4.2% participation (overall), as 2.7 org and 1.9 non-org….for a total of 4.2.
Aust footy has 2.1 org, 0.7 non-org and 2.7 overall.
Now - that was from the ERASS 2006 report for 15 and over age groups, so, that’s not talking about Auskick there….but, you get the picture!! I hope…….well, they didn’t really provide an all ranging definition of non-organised activity.

The fact that in ‘organised’ sport for 15 and over, Aust Footy is far, far closer to Soccer (especially allowing for the skew of data due to the dominance of the NSW market). Now - - given that we can see going back to 2003 and 2000, very strong numbers for soccer - - you’d expect that 5-14 age group to be coming through the system……and maybe they are, but it’s not overly obvious as of yet.

Now, these ERASS reports date back to 2001, I might look at each year later -
but (for outdoor as appropriate) - again, 15 and over.

2001 to 2006 Males Females Total
Aust Footy 339.2 to 403.5 14.2 to 42.3 353.3 to 445.8 (2.3% to 2.7%)
Soccer 432.2 to 519.9 119.2 to 177.5 551.3 to 697.4 (3.7% to 4.2%)
Cricket 351.0 to 474.3 59.8 to 50.1 410.8 to 524.4 (2.7% to 3.2%)
RL 165.5 to 209.8 (1.1% to 1.3%)
RU 96.4 to 165.3 (0.6% to 1.0%)

this illustrates everyone increasing both REAL and relative numbers - - - that’s gotta be good. As I’ve pointed out, a good portion of that soccer number is ‘non-organised’ compared to footy in particular, and a good portion is over 35s and an obvious portion is womens, although the rate of growth in Aust Footy womens participation, a 200% increase over that time frame - - that’s encouraging………….but again, do we really want that at the expense of netball……well, actually, the damage netball does to knees and ankles……

G MASTRO said  | August 14th 2008 @ 5:54pm | Report comment

Koala Bear,

Hows the summer in jolly old england.

You might want to check out the incomes of US BasketBallers, Baseballers and US Footballers and compare them to soccer players. US money is bigger

Michael C said  | August 14th 2008 @ 6:08pm | Report comment

btw - we know that HAL attendances last season rose mainly on the back of about 80K extra attendees in NZ - - Wellington Phoenix compared to the old Auckland based NZ Knights. This year, it’ll be interesting to get a better gauge….but, many people provide last years growth overall as some example of an Australian based revolution…..the only real growth markets were Newcastle and Gosford based on better average crowds (rather than setting or threatening new venue records each week).

btw - KB -
re people choosing, have you heard about Mike Pyke? 24 yr old Canadian RUWC rep, been playing pro RU in Scotland and most recently France over the last 4 years. He instigated and has now moved to Sydney, and has tried out and now signed for 2 years as an ‘international rookie’. He’s 200cm, 105kg, does the 100m in sub 11s, and is a youtube pin up boy for a solo 80-90m try against the All Blacks in the lead up to last years RUWC. He’s played 17 matches for Canada including their full RUWC campaign, he’s a full back……he was also good at junior basketball.

And, he, has decided, to give away all of that, relocate to Australia and try to become a ruckman.

Sometimes…..you can try to rationalise to your hearts content………..but,…….in the world there are folk like SBW who will chase the biggest bucks they can find,….and, then a fellow like this willing to take a risk, to take on a challenge irrespective of there being no guarrantee of a return.

I hope for his sake that he succeeds, it’s just a really interesting general interest story. Just a little more intriguing than simply an overseas soccer aspirant spotting that they play in Australia so he might chase a contract there.

Koala Bear said  | August 14th 2008 @ 6:51pm | Report comment

G’astro,
Last time I was in England on a working holiday in 1972 the summer was fantastic not to mention the Football .. Anything more you need to know about Grooky just let me know … I will fill you in..

~~~~~~~~
KB

G MASTRO said  | August 14th 2008 @ 7:06pm | Report comment

Koala Bear,

For your sake I hope your British.

The only people who say LADS are TRY HARDS or english

Koala Bear said  | August 14th 2008 @ 7:53pm | Report comment

G’astro,
I’m pleased you noticed the Archery was a Gold Medal Final …

~~~~~~
KB

Dave said  | August 14th 2008 @ 8:24pm | Report comment

GMastro

With your level of intelligence l’m surprised you knew how to spell Ha, must have really stretched the grey matter to get a line of them without a mistake.