By AP
August 12th 2008 @ 1:15am
All Blacks cheat in lineouts, scrums, says De Villiers
South Africa coach Peter de Villiers says New Zealand cheats in the setpieces and wants referee Matt Goddard to strictly rule on that part of the Tri-Nations rugby match next weekend.
De Villiers said on Sunday the International Rugby Board prevented him from talking to the referee, but he told the Afrikaan newspaper Sondag that if Goddard doesn’t control the lineouts and scrums then Saturday’s match at Cape Town could become a farce.
“It is obvious that as world champions, our biggest strengths are in the lineout and in the scrum,” de Villiers said in Sondag.
“And it is precisely here where the opposition will try and neutralize us.
“The All Blacks use tactics which are illegal and as far as I know if it is illegal, then it is not allowed.
“We have picked up three things that they do which are illegal in the lineouts.
“It starts with their flanker coming through the lineout illegally to stop any ball thrown down to the scrumhalf. They also do their best to play the lineout jumpers in the air and jump across the line, and then thirdly they manage to close the gap to a half a meter between the two sets of players.
“All I know is that if there is a rule, and if it applies to one team, it applies to both teams.
“The referee has to blow according to the rules and not according to his interpretation, its that simple.”
The All Blacks arrived in South Africa on Saturday, and intend to name their side on Tuesday.
The Springboks remained quiet on the injuries to lock Bakkies Botha (knee), centre Jaque Fourie (cheekbone) and fullback Conrad Jantjes (neck), who were all hurt in the 63-9 defeat of Argentina on Saturday. The Boks said they will update the players’ status on Monday.
In light of the injuries, one of the dropped pair of utility backs Frans Steyn and Ruan Pienaar — both World Cup winners - may yet receive a recall to the squad. But de Villiers said the duo need to specialise if they want longer test careers.
Steyn and Pienaar were released last week to play in the Currie Cup, and de Villiers responded to criticism of the decision by telling Sondag it was one of his hardest choices as a coach.
“If I looked at reserve scrumhalf, and I have to choose between Ruan Pienaar and Fourie du Preez, and I sent Fourie back, I would have to have my head read,” de Villiers explained.
“The same goes in a decision between Jaque Fourie and Frans Steyn. I told Ruan and Frans, it is great to have you here, but if Fourie or Jaque are back, then you are at the back of the queue again.
“I told them, you can go back and decide where you want to play. But with every decision there is a responsibility and that responsibility is that if you choose to play flyhalf, you must know there are players ahead of you.
“The same goes for scrumhalf, there you must know Bolla (Conradie), Fourie and Ricky (Januarie) are all ahead of you.
“Ruan is a very good player, but as a scrumhalf, I have to ask if he does all the basic things that a scrumhalf has to do.
“This is what I look for and I have to be honest about these things. If Ruan and Frans were playing badly, then it would be easier, but they aren’t playing badly.
“The coach is possibly wrong, but I have to choose and stick by my decision. Both are great players but there are players here who have a little bit extra because they are specialists.”
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Benjamin said | August 12th 2008 @ 1:25am | Report comment
“A lot of guys put up their hands and I want to make it clear that the Springbok door is not shut to anyone.”
then…
“There is a time to come and a time to go. I am looking to the next four years, and some people may find that their time to go is earlier than expected.”
Typical contradictory nonsense from this man. He has accused Dowd of racism, alluded to mass racism in NZ and Australia, blamed Habana and Pieterson for the Springbok losses… I could go on and on. He is an absolute fool, and sooner or later Sarfu are going to get annoyed by his publicity stunts. This sort of behaviour is doing the Springboks such a disservice.
Jerry said | August 12th 2008 @ 4:31am | Report comment
So the All Blacks do what everyone else does in the lineout then. Wow, huge revelation. They obviously don’t do it that well, cause other than the other weekend against Aus and the 1/4 final in Cardiff I’m struggling to think of any other games the AB lineout has really disrupted a top opponent.
De V comes accross as an idiot - the Boks don’t have a strong scrum, World Champs or not. I’m sure he thinks it was the policing of Woodcock that lead to the Boks having parity in Dunedin rather than not having Sommerville on the other side or Brad Thorn and Ali Williams providing the shove. Poor effort from De Puppet (nickname stolen from Planet-Rugby).
Benjamin said | August 12th 2008 @ 4:42am | Report comment
Jerry, statistically the ABs had the strongest lineout during the WC.
I assume his scrum references are just media hyperbole for the sake of the referee/s. It would be worrying to think that he actually believed what he was saying.
“I told Ruan and Frans, it is great to have you here, but if Fourie or Jaque are back, then you are at the back of the queue again.”
Must be nice for Pienaar and Steyn to have that publicly disclosed. What a way to inspire confidence.
Matt said | August 12th 2008 @ 8:49am | Report comment
All the rubbish of cheating aside, my question to De Villiers would be who is gunna cover the utility role from the bench now?
He’s drop a utility 9/10/15 (pienaar) and also dropped a utility 10/12/13/15 (Steyn) and replaced them with 2 specialists.
So how will he now cover the needed utility role from the bench? Pienaar and Steyn were never there as specialist performers, they were there for their versatility. If Du Prees and Fourie are your starting specialists then wouldn’t you drop the second choice specialists?
At present they have a 9 cover (Du Preez), a 10 cover (Grant) and then they’re gunna need another player to cover 12-15. Wouldn’t that have been Steyn? If Montgomery starts at 15 (with Janjtes injured) what is he planning to do? It just seems like flawed logic to me? Like most of the thing he does/says.
mudskipper said | August 12th 2008 @ 8:51am | Report comment
Here we go the new Springbok Coach De Villiers takes a page out of Whites coaching handbook and is already rubbing the Referee. Before the All Blacks Coach Henry can target the Referee on Republican foul play of the ball…
Its going to be a good nasty test match… with any luck Brian Habana will be fit to play…The All Blacks should do a good job on softening them up before the Wallabies match the following week…
mudskipper said | August 12th 2008 @ 9:01am | Report comment
This really sounds like De Villiers blaming the Referee for a loss before the game has been played. He is pre-empting a Springboks loss and is deflecting responsibility setting up the match Official to be targeted by the SA media…
I wonder if the Springboks are staying in the same hotel as the IRB match Officials this week in Cape Town…
Benjamin said | August 12th 2008 @ 9:05am | Report comment
Matt, I believe that Grant is injured. Steyn has been called up for Fourie. Don’t you recall that early in his tenure PDV started lambasting utility players saying they would have no place in his squad. It just shows how out of touch he is with modern rugby, ‘its war and you die.’ What a silly sausage.
Mudskipper, this constant nonsense is getting boring now. It mainly seems to be a SH issue, this referee baiting, but it’s really getting tiresome now. I wish the players and coaches would either be completely candid, i.e ‘we’re going to smash them’ a la Ali Williams, or just keep quiet.
Habana may be fit but he’s completely redundant when SA decide not to pass the ball beyond the centres.
Matt said | August 12th 2008 @ 9:36am | Report comment
To be honenst Bejamin I just thought that us Kiwis wait until after the game to bait the referee, we don’t bother doing it before the match. Although our media seem to do it anyway, regardless of how little ammo the coach gives them. In fact, I’ve found Henry to be reasonably diplomatic with refs (that could be a bias comment though I think). I was surprised that they never personally had a go at Barnes after Cardiff.
Imagine if it had been De Villiers on the receiving end of that?! It would certainly lead to some more interesting newpapers qoutes anyway.
Matt said | August 12th 2008 @ 9:43am | Report comment
As for the updates on selections, I just can’t understand him sometimes. He’d make a great poker player, one of those guys who are so hard to read but usually because they don’t even know what hand they’ve got themselves.
From his comments he has alluded to the fact that Du Preez/Pienaar and Fourie/Steyn are fighting for the bench spot.
So that possibly suggest that Jacobs and Conradie are his starting 9’s anyway?
He also says “Both are great players but there are players here who have a little bit extra because they are specialists”. So he is basically picking a 22 man team of specialists? Surely he hasn’t forgotten the fact that 7 bench specialists on the bench only cover 12 spots at the most. You need at least one utility back on the bench to cover most injury scenarios.
Benjamin said | August 12th 2008 @ 9:46am | Report comment
I accept that the media certainly aggravates matters. Because rugby is not that popular in the NH there are rarely any controversies, or even similar headlines to what you would get on rugbyheaven.
Benjamin said | August 12th 2008 @ 9:50am | Report comment
The irony is that his back row are basically all blindside flankers.
TembaVJ said | August 12th 2008 @ 10:53am | Report comment
Every time PDV opens his mouth I look for a place to stick my head in, its a shame Dick Muir (brilliant coach) has to shine from behind this fool. If he does not start Monty and Fourie Du Preez, then he is mad and the AB will smash the boks. SA need the kicking options in Du Preez and Monty, now I know most people hate prince charming (monty) but his positional play/boot is required to counter Carter. We have seen in the Wellington match that Bucth James cannot out kick Carter on his own. Lets not mention the best prop in SA BJ Botha is still not in the team. But staying with what tash-man has selected in the match 22, I see 2 changes. Steyn and Burger.
1. Beast
2. Bismark
3. CJ
4. Bekker
5. Matfield
6. S Burger
7. Juan Smith
8. Spies
9. Du Preez (no doubt)
10. James
11. Habana
12. Jean. DV
13. Jacobs
14. JP
15. Monty (no Doubt)
Bench:
Jantjies, Strauss, Big Joe, Januarie, Steyn, Mujati and daddies boy Watson.
Benjamin said | August 12th 2008 @ 10:58am | Report comment
Temba, I don’t think it is realistic that NZ would smash SA. Let’s not forget that NZ have had 2 good games this year, and no more. This isn’t a vintage NZ team by any stretch. Also I can’t see what Muir has done to gain your support, the Sharks were awful this year. Also I would prefer to see Jantjes on the wing ahead of Pieterson.
TembaVJ said | August 12th 2008 @ 11:12am | Report comment
Jantjies on the wing is one of those things that people start believing because its been said so many times. Petersen looks to be finding form again and has more experience not only on the wing but the game. I like Jantjies, he is fearless going for the highball and is a great runner but lacks a good kicking game and gets caught out of position from time to time, he is not a complete 15.
The All Blacks have seen what they can do if they use their set-peace a little more instead of running every ball with no direction. And they will be full of confidence after the Wallabies game.
If Du preez and Monty don’t start, AB by 12
True Tah said | August 12th 2008 @ 11:24am | Report comment
TembaVJ
do you reckon Nokwe could get a start at all?
The guy scored a lot of tries in Super 14 this year, which was pretty impressive considering he was playing in a well beaten Cheetahs side?
I reckon Spies will be back to his best this week, physically he is one fine specimen, in fact you could say he is almost like a freak in his strength, speed, agility and handling skills.
TembaVJ said | August 12th 2008 @ 11:47am | Report comment
Tah you are right, Nokwe is awesome but no space on the bench for a wing and I don’t see Habanna getting dropped if he is fit. I don’t know if you watched the game on the weekend but Spies played on the wing for about 10-15 mins and looked really good in that position.
With 20 mins to go I would bring on Jantjies for Monty, Steyn for Jacobs put big Joe on 8 moving Spies to wing and removing Pietersen, now that is impact from the bench. Januarie is purely to backup Du Preez who I would prefer to play 80 min.
Its a shame a player like Nokwe cant play but id want him to get more international experience before playing him against the All Blacks.
True Tah said | August 12th 2008 @ 11:52am | Report comment
TembaVJ,
I did watch a bit of the game, and I was impressed with Spies…I know the boet has had some health issues, but give him a few years, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he will be regarded as one of the best loose forwards in rugby history.
It is a shame we cant see Nokwe play, but I guess its a good problem in that you have some good depth in your outside backs…these are the sort of players the Poms and Celts would love to have on their wings.
matta said | August 12th 2008 @ 11:52am | Report comment
is he joking?
when was the last time you saw a dominant Saffer scrum? Its the biggest BS of modern Rugby.. people assume cos they are big the Saffer are quality at scrum time…its plain crap!
TembaVJ said | August 12th 2008 @ 12:08pm | Report comment
Matta I saw one on saterday night
you have to look at PDV as a bit of a cartoon character, he talks way to much and does not really think about what he is saying. In history the boks have been known for power and yes size in the scrum. The AB’s did not dominate the scrum in the second test in NZ and if you can stand up to the AB scrum I recon your round about the top of the list. The Argies, depleted and unfit as they are where dominated from the start in this area.
I wish they could get PDV to stop talking and select the best players for the game, I cant remember the last time I saw a Springbok team with the best players selected. But I fear, Jantjies and Januarie will start along with Luke Watson - the All blacks will dominate the break down giving Carter ages to decide if he should run around us or kick us out of the game. Butch James cannot out smart Carter, we need 3 kicking options or we are stuffed.
Jerry said | August 12th 2008 @ 12:34pm | Report comment
Temba - there were 3 changes in the tight 5 from Wgtn to Dunedin, so I wouldn’t be trumpeting the Bok scrum prowess based on that one match. The Boks are likely to face the Wgtn version of the scrum on Saturday - Sommerville is a far better scrummer than Afoa and Williams and (especially) Thorn provide a lot more grunt in behind the front row than the rookie locks who played most of the match in Dunedin.
As far as ranking the Bok scrum, I’d say they’re behind NZ, England, Argentina & Italy and pretty much on par with the likes of Ireland, Aus, Wales & France. They’ve learned to play without a strong scrum however.
Dunedin was a good win for the Boks and their forwards were very good, but they’re likely to face a much stronger pack this time with Thorn, Williams, Sommerville and McCaw back and So’oialo and Kaino in their preferred positions.
stillmissit said | August 12th 2008 @ 12:53pm | Report comment
All interesting stuff guys but what are your early guesses at the result?
Mine without any great analysis: SA 12 - NZ 18
TembaVJ said | August 12th 2008 @ 12:55pm | Report comment
Right Jerry not as good as Italy and Argentina you are joking right? Its not the same Bok front row either. Ill Agree the AB pack is the best in the world and with names like that its not hard to understand, however time will tell if they are going to dominate or if its going to be well contested.
This game will not be won with the scrum, it will be the breakdown and the boot.
Just out of interest can you tell me the tight 5 that played against the Wallabies seeing as you a rating South Africa, Ireland and Australia as the weak scrummers? If you are right and they smash us in the scrum then I am proven wrong but I don’t think they will. It will be even and the game will be decided else where.
TembaVJ said | August 12th 2008 @ 1:02pm | Report comment
Stillmissit, its hard to say without knowing the team selection the All Blacks are likely to keep the same team that beat the Wallabies but SA is a pan of scrambled eggs when it comes to selection. One team will lose by 10 + and the other will be close. Start Du Preez, Monty and Spies and Ill say 18-22 either way but start Januarie and Jantjies and it will be 22-12 All Black.
TembaVJ said | August 12th 2008 @ 1:11pm | Report comment
O and Jerry I am not trumpeting anything but if you feel like coming out beating your chest by all means Ill agree with you, the boks are not as good as they once where.
Jerry said | August 12th 2008 @ 1:25pm | Report comment
Temba
“not as good as Italy and Argentina you are joking right?”
Not at all, both those teams have very strong scrums. In pretty much all other areas, the Bok pack is better though. A strong scrum is a useful tool, but it doesn’t guarantee a team will get good go-forward all day.
“This game will not be won with the scrum, it will be the breakdown and the boot.”
I agree, that’s why I said the Boks have learned to play without a dominating scrum (just as the All Blacks have managed to win a lot of matches with a disfunctional lineout). A perfect example of how the scrum can be circumvented was in the World Cup pool stages where they spanked England 36-0 despite going backwards at scrum time. Just like Wgtn and Dunedin (and Sydney & Auckland for that matter) the team that wins the collisions and controls the game will win. However, I think the AB’s do have a legitimate advantage at scrum time and can disrupt the Boks in that area when defending and should be able to get good ball on their own feed (So’oilao will be a big help here as Januarie is very good at disrupting at the back of the scrum). I’m not trying to beat my chest here, but I think it’s pretty clear the AB’s do have an advantage at scrum time just as the Boks have an advantage at lineout time. Neither of those, however, will determine who wins the game without dominance or parity in other areas.
And the tight five v the Wallabies was the same as in Wgtn other than the injured Smit from memory.
TembaVJ said | August 12th 2008 @ 1:42pm | Report comment
So Jerry, Tah and Benjamin, early predictions?
Jerry said | August 12th 2008 @ 1:49pm | Report comment
If the AB’s win it, it’ll be done very hard - No more than 10 points. The Boks could get away early though if the AB’s don’t impose themselves on the match.
TembaVJ said | August 12th 2008 @ 2:09pm | Report comment
The weather is looking surprisingly well for this time of year Jerry it wont be a very low scoring game.
Here is mine.
1. PDV will stick to Jantjies and Januarie, the All Blacks will control the breakdown and Dan will keep the forwards going forward and the Saffa’s going back with his positional kicking. Carter will also keep the counter ticking with 3 penalties and score a 5 pointer him self, Nanu will burst one down the inside of Jacobs for a total of 23. The boks will fight back hard in the middle of the game but frustration in backline mistakes and the AB defense will hold them to 2 penalties and one try 13.
23-13 All Blacks
2. PDV wakes up and starts Du Preez and Montgomery… add Butch James kicking boot to Monty and Du Preez kicking ability and it should neutralize Carters positional play. Du Preez and James is SA’s best 9-10 combination allowing James more time at receiver and in so more of an accurate attacking backline. They game would be even with an early AB penalty lead. 2 tries a peace 4 penalties and a drop goal to Steyn if he gets it over to decide the game.
20-22 South Africa… if Steyn gets the drop
Mark said | August 12th 2008 @ 2:14pm | Report comment
Temba - “now I know most people hate prince charming (monty)” - I think you’ll find some people believe he’s matured into one heck of a player & to be in the Boks for such along time is no mean feat. I know the SA’s haven’t liked him due to perceived weakness in defence, but that was in his early days. Based on what I’ve seen over teh years from Monty, I’d call him World Class & he would walk into most countries teams.
I’ll pick NZ by 10 as they were on fire 2 weeks ago & still have a lot on the line. Also with correct balance in the forwards finally they should take the game to the Boks. Either way, it’s SA in SA & will be one heck of a game, lets hoping there’s not too much ref bashing this time…….yeah I know, that’s wishful thinking..
TembaVJ said | August 12th 2008 @ 2:24pm | Report comment
Mark Monty is a hero of mine, I have the a world of respect for him. This will be his 100th test cap, an SA record. He is also up with the greats in international points scores, close to a thousand if memory serves.
I just know from experience on this site, they love to bash prince charming and don’t think much of him. You will receive plenty response in saying Percy is world class… trust me I know. I hope you are wrong on the winner and right on the ref bashing.
TembaVJ said | August 12th 2008 @ 2:25pm | Report comment
Mark Monty is a hero of mine, I have a world of respect for him. This will be his 100th test cap, an SA record. He is also up with the greats in international points scores, close to a thousand if memory serves.
I just know from experience on this site, they love to bash prince charming and don’t think much of him. You will receive plenty response in saying Percy is world class… trust me I know. I hope you are wrong on the winner and right on the ref bashing.
TembaVJ said | August 12th 2008 @ 2:26pm | Report comment
oops…
Big Kev said | August 12th 2008 @ 2:59pm | Report comment
Temba - re the Bok scrum on the weekend, the Argies clearly got the correct shoulder in most scrums for a particular side of the field, which means SA got the wrong shoulder! In the second half things changed however and the
Argies clearly ran out of steam at the altitude. No way the Boks dominated the scrum!
ohtani's jacket said | August 12th 2008 @ 4:34pm | Report comment
I predict the All Blacks will win. Just a gut feeling.
I think we’re looking at more than a converted try, so the All Blacks by 10.
It won’t be a huge surprise if South Africa win, but a back breaking victory like Ellis Park four years ago… That would surprise me.
Photon said | August 12th 2008 @ 5:58pm | Report comment
One the most difficult thing to do in rugby is to win away from home in the Tri- Nations and it usually only happens once a year.Better All Black sides than this have lost to worse Springbok sides than this. Most of the gentleman on this blog didn’t give the All Blacks a chance against the Aussies in Auckland. I think the Boks will win and if they don’t the All Blacks will not win by more than five. But my call is South Africa by about 5, caus that’s usually the winning margin against New Zealand in South Africa on days when the Boks do the business. Finally Themba, I’ve always had respect for your comments, please don’t taint that by dumb comments like the one about Muir being the brains of the operation. Muir would not have picked a number of the players in that Springbok side and the performance of the Sharks in the Super 14 was dour. Yes they made a semi final, but they where shocking in the two crunch matches in Sydney. As for de Villiers, I blame SARU, surely if you appoint a employee to your Business, you have to give that employee guidlines relating to what is and is not acceptable behaviour, the blame for the failure to control the quotes givern to the media by De Villiers must be firmly laid at they’re door ste. Unless of course they see no problem with his utterances.
Anyway Boks by 5!!
Photon said | August 12th 2008 @ 6:13pm | Report comment
Oh and this is how I suspect the Bok Side will look on Saturday
15)Montgomery
Joe van Niekerk
14)Habana
13)Jacobs
12)De Villiers
11)Pieterson
10)James
9)Januarie
7)Juan Smith
6)Schalk Burger
5)Matfield
4)Bekker
3)Steenkamp
2)Bismarck
1)CJ vd Linde
16)Pierre Spies
17)Danie Rossouw(I’d have gone with Johan Muller)
18)Francois Steyn
19)Fourie Du Preez
20)Beast Mtwariwira
21)Adrian Strauss
22)Conrad Jantjies
I think it’s reasonably balanced, I’d probably have started Fourie and swapped Conrad with Ruan Pienaar, I think he’s a better utility back, but I’d have kept Januarie as my reserve scrumhalf, he’s playing better than Ruan at the moment (At Scrumhalf that is). Anyway that’s my side I hope it’s Pieters to and I also hope it wins
Finally Jerry, Ohtani’s Jacket(What’s the Story behind the Nick?) I’m curious about something, how come the All Black side doesn’t know their entire National Anthem, surely the NZRU should compel the side to learn the country’s entire national anthem. I eman what the point of the native part if no one’s gonna bother to learn it. Maybe I’m just being precioaus about this caus I’m a South African, but I am curious
sportym said | August 12th 2008 @ 7:46pm | Report comment
I hate to say it, I miss White. Might as well rename De Villiers to Teflon, the man will blame everyone but himself leading upto a game but nothing sticks to him. Morale must be great with this muppet incharge.
mudskipper said | August 12th 2008 @ 8:28pm | Report comment
Congratulations to Monty… a hundred tests is a huge milestone for any player to achieve. To have represented your country so many times makes him a very special player in world rugby…. I hope the SA Republic pays him immense tribute…
Wikipedea Info…Percival Colin “Percy” Montgomery (born 15 March 1974 in Walvis Bay, South West Africa (now Walvis Bay, Namibia)) is a rugby union player who currently plays as a fullback for the French Top 14 side Perpignan. He holds the all-time records for both caps and points for South Africa’s national team, also known as the Springboks. He played the early part of his South African domestic career for Western Province in the Currie Cup and the Stormers in Super Rugby; after a mid-career stint in Wales, he returned to South Africa to play for the Natal Sharks in the Currie Cup and the Sharks in Super Rugby.
matta said | August 12th 2008 @ 9:09pm | Report comment
nope - dont buy it. The MYTH of the Saffer scrum continues strong…
as an example - Os DuRant who must be the most capped SA Prop of professional era couldnt Scrum his way out of a wet paperbag…he more than made up for it around the park and in my mind was the best loosed head of recent times…but the guy couldnt scrum..
Benjamin said | August 12th 2008 @ 10:27pm | Report comment
Temba, Pieterson is horrible, you can’t truly believe he has any qualities? He is shaky under the high ball, takes the wrong options and always looks flustered. I haven’t heard any pundits ever mention moving Jantjes to the wing.
Also, just to clarify, and not to be detrimental, the SA scrum dominated because Ayerza was forced to play 70 minutes at tighthead.
Btw… has naybody noticed a pattern here? Following NZ’s initial win over SA everybody said NZ would stuff SA, then quite a few people said SA would stuff Australia… AND then quite a few people said that NZ would stuff Australia and then a few people suggested that Australia would win comfortably in NZ. The key point is how difficult it is to win away in world rugby. No team has shown any consistent form yet so the form book must point to a home victory.
Benjamin said | August 12th 2008 @ 10:37pm | Report comment
Temba, btw… the Italy scrum is far superior to the SA scrum. Have you forgotten the game a few weeks ago? The Argentine scrum is also superior. Remember how Roncero bullied Van Der Linde in the WC ? The problem with the SA scrum is, a point I keep mentioning, that they still haven’t started to rely on technique as opposed to strength and size. The 1997 lions tour showed to SA just how effective the smaller, technical prop can be and they still pay no heed. The Italian props are the best in the world. They always demolish England. Jerry, I wouldn’t say that the Ireland scrum could compete with SA simply due to size deficiencies. Horan is just over 16 stone and not massively powerful and Hayes is too tall. Flannery is quite slight as well. That Ireland do not have huge second rows either means they have been reasonably overwhelmed whenever they have scrummed against SA, whose power always wins. France are a curate’s egg because I remember them playing SA in SA and the French pack shoved the SA pack everywhere, and yet they never can quite step up to England’s level.
Photon said | August 12th 2008 @ 10:38pm | Report comment
“One the most difficult thing to do in rugby is to win away from home in the Tri- Nations and it usually only happens once a year.Better All Black sides than this have lost to worse Springbok sides than this. Most of the gentleman on this blog didn’t give the All Blacks a chance against the Aussies in Auckland. I think the Boks will win and if they don’t the All Blacks will not win by more than five. But my call is South Africa by about 5, caus that’s usually the winning margin against New Zealand in South Africa on days when the Boks do the business” Never thought I’d say this, but HEAR HEAR Benjamin
Benjamin said | August 12th 2008 @ 10:43pm | Report comment
I don’t think I said all of the Photon but I do appreciate the gist? I’m definitely going with a home win. Too much power on the gainline.
Photon said | August 13th 2008 @ 12:46am | Report comment
15 Percy Montgomery, 14 JP Pietersen, 13 Adi Jacobs, 12 Jean de Villiers, 11 Bryan Habana, 10 Butch James, 9 Fourie du Preez, 8 Pierre Spies, 7 Juan Smith, 6 Schalk Burger, 5 Victor Matfield (c), 4 Andries Bekker, 3 CJ van der Linde, 2 Bismarck du Plessis, 1 Beast Mtawarira.
Subs: 16 Adriaan Strauss, 17 Brian Mujati, 18 Danie Rossouw, 19 Luke Watson, 20 Ricky Januarie, 21 Frans Steyn, 22 Conrad Jantjes
This is the Bok side
Benjamin said | August 13th 2008 @ 1:10am | Report comment
I’d rather see Rossouw in there ahead of Bekker. I see Brits has played himself out of contention, unless he is injured? I don’t think Mtawarira is up to the scrummaging challenge but if PDV thinks he is the long-term option, then a home test is the best starting place. I really cannot see why Pietersen is being persevered with? A bit of a mixed bag this team.
ohtani's jacket said | August 13th 2008 @ 1:43am | Report comment
Photon,
The nick name is a long story involving a Japanese pro-wrestler.
I don’t recall the All Blacks ever singing the national anthem with any kind of passion. We’re not really a nation of singers, hence why you never hear the crowds singing.
Anyway, Henry only made one change to the line-up from Eden Park as Toeava replaces Anthony Tuitavake on the bench.
15 Mils Muliania, 14 Richard Kahui, 13 Conrad Smith, 12 Ma’a Nonu, 11 Sitiveni Sivivatu, 10 Dan Carter, 9 Jimmy Cowan, 8 Rodney So’oialo, 7 Richie McCaw (c), 6 Jerome Kaino, 5 Ali Williams, 4 Brad Thorn, 3 Greg Somerville, 2 Andrew Hore, 1 Tony Woodcock. Reserves: 16 Keven Mealamu, 17 John Afoa, 18 Anthony Boric, 19 Adam Thompson, 20 Piri Weepu, 21 Stephen Donald, 22 Isaia Toeava.
TembaVJ said | August 13th 2008 @ 9:05am | Report comment
Matta dont be a fool, Os Du Rant was one of the best. Benjamin, I hear you on JP he has left me shouting at the TV screen a few times but when he gets it right its on. I am happy with the selection. Benjamin give us a score line predition.
Photon its Temba not Themba, and I rate Muir as SA’s 2nd best coach after Meyer. PDV woud be 5th in line and lets not blame everything on SARU, if PDV mouths off like an Idiot to the international media I think he should be held repsosible for making us look bad not SARU, he is not a kid and SARU is not his parents. He represents south Africa not the little cartoon world in his head.
Benjamin said | August 13th 2008 @ 9:18am | Report comment
Os du Randt was a very useful player, and White always spoke of his, and incidentally Montgomery’s, superb professionalism, however I don’t think he was a great scrummager - but then neither would I say he was poor. He dominated a lot of scrums, but then he also met his match quite a few times. I actually prefer Garvey and Kempson as pure scrummagers.
The scoreline? I would say SA by8+, perhaps more. Although I don’t think SA are being particularly well coached they don’t lose often at home. Furthermore the NZ teams that have won in SA before have been far superior to this model, I also think Henry and his merry men are becoming a bit stale. I wouldn’t be amazingly surprised if NZ won on the basis of SA’s games against Wales, Italy and Argentina but then this may be the game in which everything clicks into place for SA, and unlike against Wales and Argentina, they put together a whole game. To that extent I wouldn’t be surprised if SA post a big score. The recent game will have them match fit and it is Percy’s big game so maybe 10+?
ohtani's jacket said | August 13th 2008 @ 10:47am | Report comment
Os Du Rant was a great scrummager. A few years ago I saw him go off for a blood bin and the All Blacks absolutely smashed the Boks’ scrum backwards. As soon as Os returned it wouldn’t budge an inch.
The Boks have never had a big win over the All Blacks with Richie McCaw in the side.
Both sides will look to play with “controlled” aggression, so the biggest factor will be the ref once again.
Congratulations to Monty.
Benjamin said | August 13th 2008 @ 11:01am | Report comment
He wasn’t a great scrummager. Julian White and Vickery always handled him quite easily, as did De Villiers, and I recall Paul Wallace more than holding his own. He was a monster, but certainly no technician.
Imagine how many caps Montgomery would have collected had he not had that sabbatical in Wales.
ohtani's jacket said | August 13th 2008 @ 3:13pm | Report comment
When Os first came into the Springboks side, he didn’t have a reptuation as a great scrummager. Frans Erasmus, Toks van der Linde and Heinrich Rodgers all had more of a rep. Os was like a fourth loose forward. The older he got the better he became as a scrummager.
I’d rate him over any of those props you mentioned. They may have outscrummaged him, but they in turn were outscrummaged by other props. Rugby history is full of great props outscrummaging other great props and it tends to take on mythological proportions. I’m only prepared to judge Os on the job he did propping down for South Africa and he held his side of the scrum up like nobody’s business.
Peter K said | August 13th 2008 @ 3:23pm | Report comment
What I do know is the SA scrum is a lot shakier ever since Os retired.
It was far more solid in the RWC than it is now.
Benjamin said | August 13th 2008 @ 5:48pm | Report comment
I have never seen a loose forward built like Du Randt. No way has Du Randt at his peak ever been comparable to Vickery at his peak, also regarding Wallace and De Villiers, Du Randt has close to 4 stone on these players and struggled massively with them. Over the past four years he would never have made a top scrummagers list, never - in terms of work rate or scrummaging ability. He rarely gave Hayman any problems. Du Randts scrummaging has been largely been a myth, I have never seen him dominate a player. All props improve as they age but how can you rate a player that does sweet fa in the loose over players who you haven’t even seen that much? There seems to be this myth about Du Randt in the SH but in the NH he is perceived as a weak link, overweight, slow and of little use frankly.
Peter, the SA scrum was not that solid in the WC, and it was not that solid before it. The SA scrum is a myth - van der Linde is another Du Randt, a big unit but low on accuracy. For the size of the pack they have, and that Smit is basically a third prop I can recall many games were their scrum has been bullied.
ohtani's jacket said | August 13th 2008 @ 8:25pm | Report comment
It sounds like you’re talking about later vintage Os.
When he first cracked the side he was one of the more mobile props around. He could tackle like a centre, had great hands and was a strong ball carrier. Towards the end of the 90s, people regarded him as one of the great looseheads of all time.
Even when Os came back in 2004, he was a crucial part of the Springboks renaissance that year. I’ve heard he couldn’t make it round the field let alone join in those first training sessions in 2004, but White was firm in his commitment that Os was the man from which the pack would draw its confidence.
He was cotton wooled a lot after 2004, but the rubbish that people like Stephen Jones wrote about him was just that. Rubbish. If Os was a myth then what does that make English scrummaging? Carl Hayman must have had a breakfast of champions.
The decline in the South African scrum happened around the time Os had his bone bruise injury. Prior to that he formed an awesome front row pairing with Cobus Visagie.
Benjamin said | August 13th 2008 @ 9:08pm | Report comment
97 lions tour he had lost his mobility so that gives him 10 years of being dead weight as far as I’m concerned. I’m aware that he gave a lot to SA under White but that doesn’t mean he ever fulfilled his early promise.
When England beat SA 30-16 in 2004 Jake White said the pack battle had been men against boys. Aside from the vintage NZ side - Woodcock, Oliver and Hayman - and also Italy, England have smashed every world scrum. That isn’t an idle boast, it is merely the case and it is a mantle that NZ have taken on in recent years. Some props have bogeymen, Sheridan, for example, has Hayman, but he has by and large trounced nearly every other prop he has played - which is significant lest we forget that he has only been a prop for a few years. Du Randt got showed up in 1997 and he only went downward from there. I could list various props I have seen him outscrummed by, and although I am aware that scrummaging is an 8 man effort it isn’t like SA have ever consistently played skinny second rows.
Regarding Visagie, he was and is an excellent technical prop. Du Randt never was. The SA scrum has for the past decade been a myth and the only scrums they have overwhelmed have been Ireland and Australia.
Olo Brown was a legend, Dowd a legend, Paparemborde, Garuet, Milne, Probyn, Leonard etc but not big Os.
ohtani's jacket said | August 13th 2008 @ 10:23pm | Report comment
Ah the old Lions trick, where Tom Smith can pack down with the best scrum four nations can offer and Os is somehow a myth… If he’s such a myth why did Rugby World vote him the second greatest loosehead of all time two years after the myth was dispelled? South Africa’s problem was never on the loosehead side. It was the tighthead and the reserve tighthead in the Craven tradition. Os proved that in ‘99 and again in 2004. You don’t dominate a Springboks position for near on 15 years without being slightly good.
Os was Man of the Match in the semi against Argentina and in the final, Matt Stevens, who certainly respected Os, couldn’t do shit against him. Scrumming isn’t always about drilling your opposite number. A loosehead needs to protect his hooker and make sure the opposition tighthead doesn’t break the bind. In this respect Os was a fine scrummager. Carl Hayman seledom ever got a big hit in on Os and I gave you the blood bin example.
To say Os wasn’t a legend of the game is absurd and typical of how underrated South African players have been since readmission. Who’s been a bigger legend for South Africa in the past 16 years than Os?
Benjamin said | August 13th 2008 @ 10:35pm | Report comment
Rugby World? Who cares? Stephen Jones writes for rugby world so why are you citing a NH magazine as somehow proof of his complete talent? Obviously they were feeling rather nostalgic about the big fat man and decided to ignore Dowd, Cotton, Leonard, Rodriguez, McDowell, Cholley, Faulkner, Sole… In any case, I did not say that he did not have talents but that he was overrated, and still is. If you have Andrews, Otto, Wiese, Botha etc packing down and flankers the size of the average SA build and you do not have the most dominant scrum in world rugby then something is wrong. It is alright saying that du Randt protected Smit but Smit is basically a prop. I would have liked to have seen du Randt with David Giffin behind him. You have offered three games as an example of his talent and yet you have ignored the times he has been smashed. Can’t have it both ways.
Montgomery, Andrews, Teichemann, Erasmus, Kruger, Small, Williams, Matfield, Burger, Stransky… need I go on? How can a player that does nothing be a legend? He started off with promise… didn’t fulfill it, went away, came back and became a talisman. Like Mick Galwey or Clohessy of Ireland - now that doesn’t make them superstars and nobody would claim so, so at some point a dose of reality is necessary.
ohtani's jacket said | August 13th 2008 @ 11:03pm | Report comment
You said in the North they consider him dead weight and useless, yet a Northern Hemisphere rugby magazine rated him the second best loosehead ever. And I doubt they were being nostalgic either considering how good he was in 1999. The ‘97 Lions tour is as big a myth as McLauchlan against Marais in ‘74.
You can mention any prop you like from the professional era. Os outlasted them all, on a bad knee. He was still scrummaging, still making big tackles and still positioning himself for a carry. None of those SA players you mentioned have a patch on Os’ legacy. The only guy who was more inspirational was Joost van der Westhuizen.
Benjamin said | August 13th 2008 @ 11:18pm | Report comment
Geographical balance perhaps? Anyhow, my point was that Stephen Jones writes for RW and he isn’t impressed by du Randt. Obviosuly you have a soft spot for him - I don’t.
I don’t see how the Lions tour was a myth otherwise they would have been penalised out of the game. You seem to have ignored my point that it would take an utter wally to look bad in these Springbok packs - du Randt had the heaviest second rows, an excellent hooker, in terms of scrummaging ability, massive flankers and the best lineout jumper - so lineout lifting isn’t an issue, and yet he still did not stand out. The guy was spoonfed and was just background noise.
Leonard, Brown, McDowell, Dowd, Ondarts, Probyn, Sole, Smith… all better. Over the last few years there have been multiple props massively better than him, in terms of scrummaging and what they offer in the loose. Du Randt is simply not at the races.
Du Randt may have outlasted various props but that does not make him a legend. I’d like to see his carry stats btw. Mark Andrews was twice the player, as were Kruger, Erasmus and Teichemann. Stransky dropped the winning goal in a WC final - does that not count as inspirational because you are confusing being a talisman to having genuine qualities.
What did du Randt do better than other props?
ohtani's jacket said | August 14th 2008 @ 1:02am | Report comment
The reason I say the Lions tour is a myth is because you can’t base any player’s career on one tour. Tom Smith played exceptionally well on the ‘97 tour to SA, but saying he destroyed the Os du Randt myth is jingoistic. Carl Hayman always forced Julian White to switch from loosehead to tighthead, but you’d point to Leicester (pressumably.) Well how much Currie Cup do you watch? If any wally can play loosehead for the Boks, why was Os the lucky wally?
I saw him battle with Dowd, Loe, Brown, Meeuws and Hayman and it was always a battle. I don’t think his scrummaging prowess was ever doubted in New Zealand. Even with a chronic knee injury and poor fitness, he was still nailing McCaw in the tackle. Not to mention wingers, I don’t think there was ever a better prop in terms of tackling a winger. He was a great tackler for a big man, which you’ll probably dismiss because Gibbs ran over the top of him in ‘97.
There were always hard nuts in the Boks — Andre Venter, Rassie Erasmus, Naka Drotske, Pieter Muller, Brendan Venter — but there’s no way Os was soft. I think you’re discounting how difficult it is to make a return to rugby at the highest level, not only physically but mentally.
He was the dominant loosehead prop in South Africa until he retired. When he was injured in ‘98, they played Garvey at loosehead against us because they didn’t trust Kempson or le Roux against Olo Brown. This wasn’t a ploy they used against Australia that year or any other side from memory. Their scrum was nowhere near as good in ‘98 as it was by the ‘99 World Cup.
I’m not really that interested in comparing him with other props, least of all Probyn, I just firmly believe he was a great player for South Africa. If you pushed me, I’d say he was the best loosehead in the history of the Tri-Nations. I think the myth surrounding all the props you mentioned can be dispelled using one Test or series examples.
It’s strange that you put Monty above him, for example, considering how maligned Percy was in his early days. Now there’s a guy nobody ever expected to get 100 caps for South Africa. As I recall, Percy had a horror of a time on debut against the Lions at outside center. Even after they moved him to fullback, he was always booed whenever he made a mistake.
Benjamin said | August 14th 2008 @ 1:16am | Report comment
Woah, woah, woah. Nobody has ever said that he destroyed du Randt, but frankly du Randt and Garvey were shown up byt two small, rookie props. Julian White is a tighthead - and I wouldn’t point to Leicester I would point to how he smashed du Randt when they played each other. Du Randt was a talisman, and he represented the old order, so to speak, he had been there and done that. South Africans traditionally do not have vastly capped sides and subsequently White’s main aim was to create an experienced core - which he did. As I have previously said that the SA scrum is a myth I do not think there are a great deal of modern props in the Republic. Carstens, Mujati, Steenkamp, van der Linde… average. Visagie was an excellent prop but was injured when brought back. Van der Merwe is an excellent prop but I would suggest that transformation has hindered his national chances. Dan Humaan is also a good loosehead. I asked you what du Randt did better than other props and you haven’t replied. You say that you’re not interested in comparing him to other props but then how do you judge a player? All of the props I mentioned were consistently excellent to the point that they didn’t have off days.
It is fine to say that du Randt is the best loosehead in the 3N because the competition lacks history and tradition. Stiles, Hoeft or Harry were hardly world beaters and frankly there isn’t much competition. Woodcock is so superior to du Randt, even at his peak, that it is silly.
ohtani's jacket said | August 14th 2008 @ 2:41am | Report comment
I’m still not buying the Lions example as anything more than South Africa losing a Test series.
There’s more to a series loss than what happens at scrum time.
God knows Tom Smith, Keith Wood and Phil Vickery couldn’t put the heat on Rod Moore, Michael Foley and Nick Stiles, hardly the greatest ever front row for Australia.
Julian White may have been a tighthead, but they always played him at loosehead against Hayman in the first Test. You get the picture. And he played against Os a grand total of ONCE. Not hugely convincing considering Vickery subbed off for Stevens in a World Cup final.
I wouldn’t put Woodcock at Os’ level just yet. Woodcock will have to stay in the country to approach that kind of territory.
I mentioned plenty of times what made Os a great prop. I’m not interested in whether he was better than props from other eras or whether he was the second, third, fourth greatest loosehead. For every prop you mention I can point out Tests where they failed. Some of them I plain disliked like Probyn.
Benjamin said | August 14th 2008 @ 3:04am | Report comment
If you think Australia scrummed well against the Lions then you’re either forgetful or antagonistic. In 1997 the SA pack had a huge weight advantage and they didn’t budge the Lions. It is different to say that the Lions didn’t budge an international team because the international team should hold all the cards, especially a SA pack in SA, and against such a callow pack as the 97 lions. Obviously there is more to a test series than the scrum but not when the discussion is centred around props.
Julian White did not play a test at loosehead. Show me the details. And yes, he did play against du Randt once, but he shunted him everywehere, to which, as I said before White commented it was boys against men - a real demolition job. Legends do not get demolished. I also recall De Villiers shunting du Randt about. I don’t recall Woodcock being shunted around, or Hayman, or Brown etc… see my point?
Vickery was not fit throughout the WC and in any case he has been a spent force for the past two years. When have I ever shouted out about Stevens? Vickery in his prime had a