By Daniel Brettig
August 18th 2008 @ 8:28am
A-League not boring, just better organised: Vidmar
Three draws and a mere handful of goals in the opening round may sound like the harbinger of a dour 2008-09 A-League season.
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Chelsea fly as United struggle
But Adelaide United coach Aurelio Vidmar, whose side claimed top spot with a 1-0 home win over Perth Glory tonight, reckoned a drop-off in goalmouth action would indicate the league was improving in quality rather than stagnating as a spectacle.
Vidmar’s side could make a case for now housing the league’s best defensive unit after backing up a sterling Asian Champions League (ACL) campaign with another clean sheet at Hindmarsh Stadium.
Their goal came through a rasping 41st minute strike by new captain and 100 gamer Travis Dodd.
“We worked extremely hard on that through the ACL and tonight didn’t concede again so it’s a positive sign, but if you look at the whole round this weekend there weren’t too many goals scored,” Vidmar said.
“So certainly every team is better structured and if you don’t see too many goals this year it’s not for the lack of effort in front of goals it’ll be more for the way teams are better structured.”
Perth coach Dave Mitchell may have gone home with a point had youngster Scott Bullock scored when he should have in the first half, and agreed there were tight times ahead.
“In the A-League there’s not much between the teams, you saw Adelaide tonight are a very good side and we gave as good as we got,” he said.
“They created chances towards the end simply because we were pushing forward - the other three games were draws, today’s game could easily have been a draw as well, so it’s important we go home and try to win next week.”
Adelaide had been given the chance to claim the early jump on the rest of the league when Wellington Phoenix and Queensland Roar played out the third draw of the opening round.
Scotsman Charlie Miller scored on his debut for the Roar, giving Queensland the lead in the 46th minute, only for Phoenix marksman Shane Smeltz to equalise soon after to secure 1-1 and a point apiece at Westpac Stadium.
On Saturday night, Melbourne Victory were left to lament some poor finishing and a flawless performance from Sydney FC ‘keeper Clint Bolton after being held to a 0-0 draw at the Sydney Football Stadium.
The Victory spurned several chances in the first half, and were eventually forced to fight doggedly for a point against a severely undermanned Sydney, whose injury woes had deepened before kick off when skipper Tony Popovic was ruled out with a hamstring complaint.
Pre-season favourites to claim the league title, Sydney were unable to consider eight squad members, including high profile signing John Aloisi, due to a combination of injury, illness, Olyroos duty and suspension.
“We were disappointed not to take all three points, but to come to Sydney and feel disappointed like that is a good sign,” said Melbourne coach Ernie Merrick.
On Friday, a 90th-minute penalty from Newcastle striker Joel Griffiths earned a dramatic 1-1 draw with derby rivals Central Coast in the season opener.
The Jets dominated possession and field position in the second half, but it was the Mariners who took the lead in the 86th minute through a header by Olyroo Matt Simon - his first A-League goal.
A tired challenge from Brad Porter then brought Jet Tarek Elrich down in the box, and last season’s golden boot winner Griffiths stepped up to slot home and leave honours shared in the rematch of last season’s fiery grand final.
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Slippery Jim said | August 18th 2008 @ 10:07am | Report comment
The A-League started this way last season, it is a symptom of the salary cap structure. The faster we can increase or even better, remove all together, the salary cap the better for A-League football all round.
Redb said | August 18th 2008 @ 10:31am | Report comment
SJ,
Why? The salary cap works well for many of the most successful sporting comps in the world, in particular the major comps in the United States. Just becuase it works in feudal England does not mean it will work when the traditional fan support structures are not in place.
Redb
Slippery Jim said | August 18th 2008 @ 10:46am | Report comment
“feudal England?” Please, redb…do you still live in the dark ages? It seems most of your opinions still do.
I’m not going to get embroiled in an argument with you today. Take it or leave it, that’s my opinion. Why not save your special comments for the Aussie Rules blog, tiger.
Redb said | August 18th 2008 @ 10:57am | Report comment
SJ,
Bit sensitive. To clarify by feudal I mean most EPL clubs are based around the old town/city structures ( over a hundred years in place, generational in nature) to which the fans remain fiercely loyal, they are not franchises with no history. Just a theory that the EPL can get away with its structure due to traditonal ties and the sheer size of the comp. It also has to compete against the major Europrean Leagues for players, it had little choice.
The A League on the other hand has to start from scratch and engage fans with a mixture of success and one town one team sentiment which takes awhile to build. The salary cap in the HAL would create a monster in Sydney FC, Melb Victory and perhaps Gold Coast.
Redb
Slippery Jim said | August 18th 2008 @ 10:59am | Report comment
You’re right, Redb. I understand that the salary cap is a necessary evil to begin with, for purely organizational reasons, however it goes against the grain football-wise and is detrimental to the actual quality of the football on display.
NUFCMVFC said | August 18th 2008 @ 11:06am | Report comment
Generally agree,
They were low scoring but in may respects the play wasn’t necassarily boring, with the exception of the first half of NJFC and CCM
Obviously the Olympics has had an effect with many players out for that reason yet to come back + there is a general issue where as soon as a half decent attacking talent comes through they are off to Europe, like Burns and Djite amongst others like defenders etc
The recruiting of imports seems to have improved which hopefully should help improve the general play, plus the teams are generally close traditionally close at the start and it isn’t until further in the season that gaps start to open up
Slippery Jim said | August 18th 2008 @ 11:15am | Report comment
Lopez looks a lot better than in the pre-season final, Zura looked a little out of place but will probably improve…
jimbo said | August 18th 2008 @ 11:15am | Report comment
I didn’t see all the games but I thought the standard of what I saw was pretty good given the circumstances - player drain to overseas, Olyroos, injuries and suspensions.
I will be watching the Fox A-League highlights show at 7 tonight with interest.
A lot of players will make a return this week and more to come.
First 2 rounds last year we had 4 draws both weekends - after two rounds all teams were equall on 2 points - which again goes to show how close the competition is, for whatever reasons.
Remember that for your tipping comps and fantasy league this week.
After the first round still no wiser as to who will take out the GTS this year, although the big Centrebet punters are still favouring the Blues.
Slippery Jim said | August 18th 2008 @ 11:17am | Report comment
To be honest, the quality at the start of last season was absolutely woeful - embarassing. This year (albeit after only one round) looks a lot more encouraging.
Andrew said | August 18th 2008 @ 11:32am | Report comment
I think the Salary cap is a must.. Just look at teams like Man U , Chelsea etc. It’s a farce. Those teams have so much money and can afford to buy the best players. How can teams like stoke city or any other Div 1 team even have a chance? The EPL becomes a competition where only the top 4 or 5 teams have any chance whilst the others are just there to make up the numbers.
I really hope the A-league keeps the salary cap and also shuns the idea of a promotion/relegation system. It just wont work in this country. If Sydney, or Melbourne were not in the a-league because of a bad season it would be terrible for sponsorship and public interest. Our markets are quite fickle, we like winners, and tend to turn out only when a side is performing at a decent level. This is true for all codes. RU is a classic argument, wallabies and warratahs.
True Tah said | August 18th 2008 @ 11:41am | Report comment
Andrew,
re: P & R…Koala Bear had an argument that the team being promoted could be from the local league of that respective team.
Say Sydney FC came last…the team getting promoted could be say the Blacktown Demons? This way it ensures that a team representing that area will always be in the top comp.
A salary cap would ensure that the best players in the land could be assembled in a super squad…surely that would be a better product than having those players distributed throughout the land?
Dont agree that the EPL is a farce, its jsut competitive…if say Blackburn, Sunderland want to compete they have to lift the bar themselves, raise ticket prices, get the dough and get the stars to play for them, get a millionaire backer…interest in EPL is at all time high in Australia, although it does make you wonder when all you see is top 4 jerseys being worn.
Slippery Jim said | August 18th 2008 @ 11:45am | Report comment
Andrew, I respect your opinion, however a merit based approach which rewards smart, successful clubs is preferable in my opinion, and a promotion/relegation system adds great interest to the game. While the latter will have to wait some time until it is viable for our fledgling competition, it is inevitable. An artificial glass ceiling for successful football clubs is not something we should leave in place past its use-by date. The “Virtuous circle has worked to great success in making the EPL the most popular and successful football league in the world, and I strongly believe something similar, in time, is where we should head in the A-League. In the EPL clubs that were bottom of the league, such as Portsmouth are now playing in Europe, so there is every incentive for clubs and fans of none so-called ‘big four’ clubs.
Andrew said | August 18th 2008 @ 11:51am | Report comment
True tah,
How is a super squad that thrases a team 4-0 every game, good for any league, or any code? How is it good in a promotion/reg system where a team goes to the EPL for 1 season loses just about every game and drops back into div 1? This is repeated each year. Hardly any of these teams stay up for more than 1 season, and if they do they always struggle down the end of the ladder.
The reason is simply to do with money. I dont see that as being fair.
EPL could do with a salary cap and a marque player system, perhaps extended to 3-4 players per team. FIFA has already introduced a foriegn player rule which should help the EPL be more competitive.
The A-league in the future I am sure will extend is marque player quota as well. This will help improve the quality of the product, but be a good balance of talent vs out right money.
Andrew said | August 18th 2008 @ 12:00pm | Report comment
Jim I know that there are merits for Prom/reg systems but Most of europe have had this system for over 100 years, they have bigger populations crammed into smaller areas. Not sure how this is going to work for a new HAL with limited teams spread over much wider areas.
Maybe 50-100 years time this might be feasible with 40million people and 18-20 teams but on the current outlook this looks highly unworkable.
We have teams such as sydney (5million people) Brisbane (2-3mil?) Melbourne (4?) .. However the EPL is split by smaller areas. Much like how the NRL is divided up, however england has much higher population.
If sydney was relegated tthats 5million people without a team.
So how many teams would we need in sydney for such a system? We would need at least 3.. And 3 teams is not on the radar for the forseeable future.
True Tah said | August 18th 2008 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
Andrew,
having a super squad enables the best product to be produced in a comp, which is entertaining, people will want to see the best product, as it is the best advertisment for the respective sport/code.
Re: the EPL everything you mentioned may be true, but the fact is that these issues have not prevented it from being the pre-eminent futbol league in the world, and by some margin.
The whole issue with money is redundant - in a free market, which the EPL is, it is Darwin’s theory put into practice, the strongest will survive, those clubs which can attract fans, who pay a lot of money for attending, who are successful and have their merchandise selling through the roof, attracting millionaire backers…why should they not? These are rewards for success, both on the pitch in terms of results and off the pitch, concerning good management and financial decisions. I dont buy into the argument that because its to do with money it isn’t fair.
Michael C said | August 18th 2008 @ 12:17pm | Report comment
I confused -
the salary cap - - is that making it too expensive to get decent strikers - - because, it’s so (too) hard to score goals
or
is it simply the lack of salary cap that allows such lop sided teams/squads that every 2nd or 3rd game for a competition ‘heavy weight’ will be a goal fest against a financially less well off ‘minnow’?
It seems to me the ‘quality’ argument is very much based on the easiest skills - - defensive.
True Tah - - you mentioned ‘rewards for success’. That’s fine….but, the game of soccer, being so low scoring - does not often reward success nor penalise mediocrity (that’s the nature of the game)- - a nil all draw has done niether - - Darwin surely could not approve……so, why allow a ‘reward’ argument to prevail at the ‘administration’ level when all it’ll do in Australia is kill off any level of interest in the HAL — with the only concern being which un-pronouncable Korean or Vietnamese team that MVFC or SFC will play in the ACL.
Gee - Andrew - - I actually agree with you on this thread!!!!!
Redb said | August 18th 2008 @ 12:25pm | Report comment
True Tah,
Can’t say I agree with you on the promotion/relegation thing. If Sydney Fc were to drop down and Blacktown Demons to go up they would take their support with them, however any true self respecting Sydney FC fan could hardly support the Blacktown Demons - maybe in spirit, but not in tangible ways - go to games, buy merchandise,etc. If anything Syd FC fans would do their utmost to withdraw support (financial) in the hope of getting their team back into the ‘premier’ league.
Redb
Slippery Jim said | August 18th 2008 @ 12:36pm | Report comment
Andrew, 50-100 years? Shows how out of touch with Austrlian Football, I’m afraid.
The FFA’s plans for a promotion/relegation system should be in place by October this year (yes, only two months away). These will be necessary for future participation in the ACL, although we have been given exemption for the short term. After expansion of the A-League, relegation/promotion is the next goal.
Slippery Jim said | August 18th 2008 @ 12:36pm | Report comment
True Tah, very true, Western society proves the capitalist model for success works rather than the communist (salary cap) model. We will fail in the long term, or worse, have a stable, yet mediocre-to-poor quality league if we keep a restrictive salary cap in place in the long term. I don’t see this as the long term future for the A-League and I doubt the FFA will either, once the league is established and self-reliant in its own right.
MIdfielder said | August 18th 2008 @ 12:37pm | Report comment
Andrew
Football will have a P & R system but like the Japan model not like the European model. Essentially a 14 team A-League and a 8 to 10 team B-League.
Why am I so certain….. its what Asian has as rules for extra ACL places. The potential of Asian football connections and the money it brings is why Clive Palmer will spend heaps on a Gold Coast side why there where nine bids for 3 A-League spots and why local cities and business is prepared to financial support these teams. Also why Commonwealth government is putting some funding into football.
The plans and protocols need to be developed over the next few years. After the next media deal the B-League will get in part off the ground with teams etc, and in 10 years after the second media deal out is signed the funding will be there to run it.
In the mean time the A-League will have a slow growth but what is important is you get as many people as you can to A_league matches and just do the simple things, as I said go to matches ignore what the other codes are doing as there is nothing you or the FFA can do about it. Essentially the future of football Andrew is in our hands and always has been.
True Tah said | August 18th 2008 @ 12:50pm | Report comment
Slippery Jim,
spot on - its ironic that the most capitalistic nation of them all, the US, has adopted a socialistic approach to its sports markets.
However I don’t think that its really appropriate to compare the Australian sporting market to the US, as the US population is over 10 times the size, its sports market is infinitelty bigger, Americans seem to be able to support multiple sports, as opposed to here where every sport seems to compete and most people only support one sport.
If Perth Glory continue to struggle and get low crowds etc, why should FFA let their poor standards drag the league down?
As an ex-North Sydney supporter, go out and support your team now, because in a few years you may well be denied that opportunity.
Slippery Jim said | August 18th 2008 @ 1:03pm | Report comment
It’s strange that Perth have struggled, they were always pretty good in the NSL (especially from 2000-2004), and when the A-League started I always thought they would be challenging for top spot.
Redb said | August 18th 2008 @ 1:10pm | Report comment
SJ,
It is odd, especially as the QLD Roar have been able to harness the previous support for the Brisbane Strikers.
They only way for Perth Glory to rise up is with a salary cap as the head start it has given the other HAL teams will mean it would never catch them if money (generated by success to date) was no object (billionaires aside). Probably due to poor management off the field. (same people involved ?)
Redb
Andrew said | August 18th 2008 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
I still dont see it working in such a short time frame. Japan has over 100million people and geographically its very small compared to Australia.
Japan can sustain such a system. As a few million people probably live in each city which has a J-league team. Same can be said for their second division. The 2nd division sides are probably geographically very close to some j-league teams.
The australian market is also very fickle. If you guys really think a relegation is going to be in place in the A-league in the next few years I’ll buy you each a Keg. Because I will want to drown my sorrows as it will be a MASSIVE failure. I am pretty sure the FFA will want to drag out for as long as possible any promo/reg league for the HAL.
What will work in the mean time would be a B-league / C-league pro/reg with no ties to a-league promotion. We just do not have the numbers to support such a system. Today, and even in 10 years. It will hurt the HAL.
Thats why I said 50 years.. We will have a bigger population. More teams within each capital city and hopefully better transport infrastructure to get fans out to the games.
England - world class transport system, Japan world class.. Australia? worlds worst… (maybe an exageration but its not good)
Michael C said | August 18th 2008 @ 1:48pm | Report comment
as a matter of interest -
HAL round 1 aggregate crowd of 53,332 -
lowest first round crowd yet
v1 - 70,206, v2 - 62,965 and v3 - 58,214. (a continued trend!! - - or, the impact of the Olympics)
NJs crowd seems the best of the round - (although lower than SFC)
SFC - lowest crowd yet for hosting MVFC - drew 25K in Rnd 1 v 1, and drew 33K to rnd 21 v3. SFC really haven’t progressed yet, have they? They averaged 16.6K in v2, 15K in v2, and only that 33K result in rnd 21 last year brought the avg up for the year back above 16K.
This 16K effort is the worst first HOME match crowd for SFC.
Or is it just the Olympics?
NJs - by contrast, their best opening HOME match crowd - and continuing on from last year. The interesting thing, they set their ‘venue’ records in V2, crowds of 21K v SFC and 19.6 vs MVFC. Last season, NJs didn’t ‘bottom’ out like previously, but didn’t get above 16.5K. What I find a little surprising though, the CCM game SHOULD be a highly rated local derby - - especially on the basis of last year - - and yet, the CCM games the last couple of years were solid - 14K - -
whereas down the road at Bluetongue, hosting the NJs last year drew 19K - which is the CCM’s ground record.
10K at Wellington is below par (below avg and median for last year), and at Hindmarsh likewise.
Be interesting to see what happens coming out of the shadow of the Olympics.
Also - - interesting to see MVFC home support given the pre-season success but also the talk of (relatively) sluggish membership sales thus far.
Andrew said | August 18th 2008 @ 1:57pm | Report comment
Yeah you cant read too much into it.
SFC had alot of press in the papers that it was going to have to field a team of 10 reserves and state league players due to injury and suspension. That kind of press does keep punters away as they wanna see the best team on the park.
Wellington was raining. So the crowd was pretty decent. Wellington is a pretty unfriendly place in winter.
If the SFC game was played in melboune for the opening round then perhaps those figures would have shown it was at an all time high.. You can decipher those types figures in different ways. One thing that wont lie however is overall attendance at the end of the year. So we will have to wait to see where it ends. Many have predicted the growth will plateu this year due to them not expanding the league. 8 teams is not very appealing. The sooner we are at 12 the better.
Midfielder said | August 18th 2008 @ 2:00pm | Report comment
Andrew
It will work what it means is essentially a 22 team format spilt into two leagues being an A & B league. The cost to run the B-League will be much smaller than the A-League. The real issue is how to run the B-League teams i.e. number of rounds, rounds size 8 or 10 teams.
Andrew said | August 18th 2008 @ 2:01pm | Report comment
I guess we could also look at trends for AFL and NRL. Have they dropped off this year due to the squeeze on petrol prices, groceries, mortgages,rents etc? I am sure it would be impacting some familes. Not only do they prefer to drive to the game which is gonna cost petrol, and parking they have to also by a family pass.
Family pass $85
Parking: $15-25
Food/drinks - $15-30
It all adds up. So i would be assuming attendances would be affected by this for all codes.
True Tah said | August 18th 2008 @ 2:16pm | Report comment
Andrew, you can be guaranteed it is going to be raining in Wellington all the time, if its not raining, you can be guaranteed it will be windy! Is 10,000 a good crowd for the Phoenix?? I was in Wellington last december and the Phoenix have their own shop in the middle of town, just stocking Phoenix apparel. ..so their must be some support.
The Sydney FC crowd was down, but I did watch a little bit of the game while I was waiting for the Tri Nations game, there was no scoring, but it was not due to lack of trying…I would say it was a more entertaining game (from what I saw) of the Brazil-Cameroon Olympic match.
Unfortunately the Telecrap is going on about a fight at the game, that whilst the game lack goals, it packed some punch??
Do they have to separate supporters from each other? Why do they have to do this? These are grown men and women we are talking about.
Midfielder said | August 18th 2008 @ 2:23pm | Report comment
MC
Football undersatnds this will be its hardest year ………….. the honeymoon is over ……….. it is going to be a very hard slog for us football people, we will get there I think or hope maybe.
Andrew said | August 18th 2008 @ 2:26pm | Report comment
True tah,
Spot on mate I saw that this morning over breaky. I never heard of that reporter before, at least commentating on football. So I dont know if he is a football reporter, or a blow in from the AFL or NRL side trying to dish some dirt. Apparently most people who were at the game didnt even know there was a blue on. So it is a bit odd to be reporting it.
Either way perhaps somebody knows more about this reporter and what code he usually reports on?
10k for wellington would be just below average. I think they were getting at between 12-14k last year. But that was towards the more pleasant months which i hear are from october onwards.
Dave said | August 18th 2008 @ 2:40pm | Report comment
MC
Are the crowd aves for Crows, Power, WCoast, Dockers, Lions and Sydenee all down on last year?
Redb said | August 18th 2008 @ 2:48pm | Report comment
Andrew,
2007 crowd ave - 36,793 (H & A)
2008 crowd ave - 37,400 season to date.
Redb
Redb said | August 18th 2008 @ 2:54pm | Report comment
True Tah,
Link below:
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,24195714-5001023,00.html
Christian Nicolussi - NRL reporter by the looks.
Redb
chris said | August 18th 2008 @ 3:37pm | Report comment
MC, you fool. You love provoking, dont you?
Mate, eventhough first round attendances have decreased over the last 3 years the actual season attendances have increased.
Towser said | August 18th 2008 @ 3:44pm | Report comment
Slippery Jim
Of the matches I’ve seen for a first up game they are definitely better than last year. Re the imports Charlie Miller with five pies in his mouth & 2 pints in each hand may not appear on the Einstein factor,but his football brain is 2 levels above the A-League. Also the Brazilian Amaral showed signs of frustration at the ability of his Glory team mates to read his play.
As I’ve said before & I’ll emphasise again ,get the right quality imports & the biggest plus they can give to the A-League is that young Aussies can learn from them. By that I mean learn that the ball does the work in the most creative moves in football.
To be honest if you took away the imports now or long term the A-League would not have the appeal it does. Its what makes the A-League stand out on the Australian sporting landscape. Just got to get them right like Fred for MV in season 2(scored by the way yesterday for DC is it?).
The salary cap is a necessary evil presently,for me anyway. Whilst your right Redb about Feudal England( I’ll leave the Dark Ages argument to you &SJ) & long history & local pride ,playing a part in the support of football teams(FA cup thrives on this ie ask me if I were still living in England if I would defend England or Sheffield first no dispute. We’d rebuild Sheffield castle overnight to keep out those Southern Leeches) and this is not transferable to Australia,there is another point to consider here. That is that we compete in the ACL & clubs competing in that competition in other countries particularly Japan are not restricted by a salary cap.
Therefore it begs the question if we have a salary cap ad infinitum can we ever win the ACL given that other clubs in the ACL dont & may in fact( by way of becoming richer from more success in a proposed cashed up revamped ACL) spend more money on players. A bit like the Top four in the EPL are doing by competing in the lucrative ECL nearly every year.
What is recognisable by natural means in the English football divisions is that in general the biggest clubs are from the biggest towns population wise & this filters down accordingly.
So switching this to Australia can a club from a small(population wise) area like the Central coast ever generate a team with the resources to compete with the Urawa Reds. However a club from a big city like Sydney could without a salary cap generate enough capital to match the Urawa Reds.
This is the conundrum. For those who still dont seem to understand( & I specifically mean football fans not ones of other sports) we are tied to Asia. This is the mantra no Asia no growth no A-League sweet FA for the game here. I showed the other day to Redb that all growth over the last 3 years has come through being in Asia. They dictate we dont contemplate(our amateur hour to the upcoming generation of budding footballers. Or perhaps we”ll be looking to Indonesia or Thailand to see(certainly Japan China Korea & the middle East) how our latest Harry Kewell is faring(Scored by the way & set up a goal yesterday). all because we couldn’t work out the AFC’s promotion & relegation requirements as Midfielder correctly stated.
Also agree with that this year Is one of consolidation. If the League comes close to last years crowd average it will be on track. P&R growth can be worked out,but not by involving State League teams only by a second division side being on an equal footing with a first division side in relation to finance & playing strength. Say there was a 12/14 team first division A-League,any second division side to enter would have to have equal financial & playing strengths. No State League side can come close to this & will always struggle.
Personally I dont envy the FFA. They have a hard task ahead. They need(because Asia says so) to implement a viable P&R system whilst ensuring that all teams are competitive enough to compete in the ACL against Urawa etc under the constraints of a salary cap.
The alternative is a free for all where market forces dictated to by population size in citys like Sydney or Melborne are allowed to open up their cash books to the World football markets(Sydney in particular is Euro snob central & will never reach its audience unless it does).
Anyone bloggers on the Roar jugglers,see Frank Lowys add for future FFA positions at a job centre near you.
Redb said | August 18th 2008 @ 4:17pm | Report comment
Towser,
Again a very good but realistic assessment.
cheers
Redb
Michael C said | August 18th 2008 @ 4:55pm | Report comment
Chris -
I did actually submit a post (in answer mainly to Dave) in which I illustrated the following
v1 to v2 - agg crowds up 165K (NZ -6K) => Aust therefore + 171K
v2 to v3 - agg crowds up 140K (NZ + 83K) => Aust therefore + 57K
I do realise that the dropping first round crowds seem to have little baring on the season to follow - -
I do recall though that just about every season, thus far, on certain blogs - there’s constant concern about the impact of other codes etc - this time, there’s the Olympics. And maybe they have been a reason for such a quiet first round.
I simply thought I’d put the actual numbers out there - - I made now x-code comparisons nor did I make any judgements.
Spiro Zavos said | August 18th 2008 @ 5:06pm | Report comment
If you compare the A-League crowd numbers with the NRL (with the exception of the 33,000 for the Brisbane Broncos) they stack up pretty well I think. Drawing a crowd of 10,000 to Westpac Stadium in Wellington is also pretty good, too.
As for the standard of play, my experience after watching all the codes is that the opening rounds of a long tournament are invariably lacking in quality as the players learn to play together as a team. As the cliche says, all the training time in the world is no substitute for hard match play.
Dave said | August 18th 2008 @ 5:07pm | Report comment
MC
Are the crowd aves for Crows, Power, WCoast, Dockers, Lions and Sydenee all down on last year? I note overall AFL attendeances are up about 100,000 on last year but that is due to a big increase in the Melb clubs such as Carl, Ess, Rich and Haw becoming competitive again. The point being there will be ebbs and flows and trying to draw conclusions after one round is silly.
BTW People ridiculing the HAL for crowds of 16,000 shows just how far football has come in 3 years. In 2005 it would have been ludicrous to suggest a 16,000 crowd for a domestic football game is poor.
Michael C said | August 18th 2008 @ 5:09pm | Report comment
Dave -
I made the mistake of respecting your question and responding in detail……..alas, that was ruled inadmissable. Perhaps I went into too much detail.
Allow me to succinct it……in all those markets the avg crowd figures this year are down. Mostly not too badly given the bad current season compared to previous periods of sustained success.
Port Power are having their worst year. Given that they tend more to represent the ‘working class’, and in Adelaide, that demographic has taken a major hit via the Mitsubishi plant closing - - and I guess one wonders about the Ade Utd supporter base?
I’ll leave it at that.
btw - Redb -
I like the story quote :
A Fox spokesman denied FFA had asked the material be dumped before offering a reason the exclusive footage was suddenly left out of the channel’s news bulletins.
“We believe we should focus on what happens on the field rather than off it,” he said.
- - - - when it’s a nil all draw, there’s only so much in the way of highlights to be shown!!!!!
Michael C said | August 18th 2008 @ 5:18pm | Report comment
Dave -
Yes - - but somewhere along the line that just sounds like the old new government line of blaming the previous administration. At some point, you need to stop looking back to the NSL - - the dark days.
However, Perth Glory might desire a return to their ‘NSL glory’ days. Y’see, it WAS possible.
We’ve covered the point of how many different clubs from Melb and Syd especially contested in the NSL at any given time……so, those 4K crowds weren’t the total number of folk who MIGHT attend a game. If you’ve got 10 past NSL clubs in a city - - can we assume that there’s about 30-40K supporters who MIGHT attend a game?
btw - yes AFL crowds are UP this year due to the success of the Melb based teams - - and obviously over the previous seasons with good figures, crowds were up based on the success of the non-Melb based teams…………
Midfielder said | August 18th 2008 @ 5:23pm | Report comment
Towser
We sing from the same Hymn sheet, it is going to be a very hard year and require all the skill the FFA can put together.
My gut feeling is that most teams are stronger this year, but as winning has become so important because of ACL places that free spirited Hal 1 will not return. So defence will play a bigger part and defensive games are less crowd pleasing.
But I guess that’s part of growing up, your point on the Central Coast is interesting can they ever compete with some of the larger Asian teams. I think they can because if A-League crowds get to somewhere between 20 & 25 thousand, this along with media revenue should provide a reasonable income.
Michael C said | August 18th 2008 @ 5:27pm | Report comment
Spiro -
that’s the interesting thing - comparision.
With the NRL - - HAL crowds are okay - - in THOSE markets.
In Melb, MVFC has it all over the Storm. Melb is a different market to Sydney - - we know that.
In Sydney on the weekend though, the joker in the pack was the Swans with 45K.
Michael C said | August 18th 2008 @ 5:33pm | Report comment
Midfielder -
25K with a decent stadium deal can generate a good return (I think of Geelong in AFL, 25K crowds give them a profit of about $600K).
Get that, and a solid membership core, and you build a nice little war chest.
(it’s actually, I gather - and very relieved too - stadium deals is a major new focus for the AFL - - -and we’ve heard so much about the NRL clubs deals up at ANZ stadium………..it’s an interesting business, between the privately owned and indebted stadia around the country……the MCG nudging again to host a SoO match)
Midfielder said | August 18th 2008 @ 5:41pm | Report comment
MC
You are right in what you say ………. assume an average ticket price of $15.00 with say 14 home games.
For every 10, 000 people that is $ 150, 000 per match so 25, 000 is $ 375, 000 with 14 home games that is a revenue of 5, 250, 000, plus a 2 plus million in sponsors plus reasonable media revenue and a 15 million budget is obtainable and as I see it this would put a good side on the park.
westy said | August 18th 2008 @ 5:54pm | Report comment
The A league crowd avearages for the first round were good. The NRL Penrith Panthers in a league stronghold would have loved a crowd of 16000. Secondly any sport or code in the world would love the average AFL crowd attendances in Melbourne. To say otherwise is to ignore an international reality.That is how good they are.
Club Football crowds in China and south east Asia except for Japan and South Korea do not even come near. and they are still below.Football will grow and is growing but it would be embarrassing for any code to ignore the reality of those Melbourne AFL crowd figures.
Every sporting supporter in Australia who has some idea of Australia’s sporting demographic knows Sydney is a very competitive and fickle market orientated towards success. For many Sydney FC is not and never will be their team. Their crowds in the largest city in Australia with the greatest concentration of playing juniors in the country( we are talking over 200000 participants) is and remains the soft underbelly. It should have the largest average. Unless they win their supporter base does not go.
The Swans also suffer from this although not as markedly. AFL crowds for Port and the West are down slightly but this is simply a reflection of their fall on the table .The only concern would be Brisbane whose crowd averages have fallen for three years in a row..
Do not start on some cross code crap. I have described my observations only.Regional development is forced on the Aleague because of Sydney FC.
vicentin said | August 18th 2008 @ 8:15pm | Report comment
Westy, although I appreciate your comments I have concerns wit the comments that ….”Every sporting supporter in Australia who has some idea of Australia’s sporting demographic knows Sydney is a very competitive and fickle market orientated towards success……Unless they win their supporter base does not go.” For me part of the problem with Sydney FC is that they believe in what you’re saying - I however just want to support a team that I can connect with which for me means a team that plays decent football. I’ll admit to being a bit of a romantic on the topic but I think you win as a result, and as a secondary consequence, of playing good football, whereas Sydney has been built (and not necessarily successfully) on the idea that if you win by whatever method everything and everyone else follows.
Of course losing all the time isn’t going to help your cause but frankly I haven’t been able to bring myself to go to a Sydney FC game since Kosmina was handed the reins and having watched most of them of Fox (at the pub) I don’t think I’ve missed much. I think Sydney’s brought in some decent players this season but frankly I can see Kossie getting it all arse-up.
Now, I’m not talking in a theatre-going sense but I do think that the A-League should have a goal to be entertaining and be technically better and more intelligent than it currently is, both to entertain the masses and to inspire young kids (and their parents) to continue coming to the game and to improve our game at grassroots level. Utopian? Sounds pretty reasonable to me. I think Vidmar is onto something with his comments I just hope that next step means more intelligent and skillful players and coaches are employed to break this deadlock rather than the fitter/stronger/gutsier/dumber variety generally favoured by the likes of Kossie and Arnie et al.
westy said | August 18th 2008 @ 9:27pm | Report comment
Vincentin……….I agree with your sentiments. My concern as you identify is that Sydney FC is not the answer as yet, yet paradoxically Sydney on juniors alone is football’s strongest and most natural market. The strategy appears that Sydney will succeed by default.
Kazama said | August 18th 2008 @ 10:27pm | Report comment
Michael C: “Port Power are having their worst year. Given that they tend more to represent the ‘working class’, and in Adelaide, that demographic has taken a major hit via the Mitsubishi plant closing”
I remember a survey being done by a university here a couple of years back that suggested despite the stereotypes, Adelaide actually have quite a lot of working class supporters and Port have quite a lot of middle and upper class supporters. I think there are a few reasons why Port isn’t pulling the crowds this year, including the fact it costs quite a bit to travel to AAMI Stadium with the rising petrol prices (unless you catch the free buses instead), changes in the stadium’s seating arrangements, a public / political outcry over the redevelopment of AAMI Stadium over a building a new inner-city stadium, poor on-field performance, the fickle nature of fans in this city and, of course, the Grand Final loss to Geelong that no Port fan will ever live down. Given that they need a crowd of about 27,000 to break even, I’d say Port are in a spot of bother at the moment.
vicentin: “I think Vidmar is onto something with his comments I just hope that next step means more intelligent and skillful players and coaches are employed to break this deadlock rather than the fitter/stronger/gutsier/dumber variety generally favoured by the likes of Kossie and Arnie et al.”
I agree 100%. It’s time for Australian club football to grow up. I think Adelaide attempted to play the most intelligent football of any team this weekend, and, assuming I am correct, it has come as a result of having an open-minded manager and the fortune of two ACL campaigns. Hopefully continued interaction with Asian football will help us to evolve the play here. I don’t think our teams will get very far playing blood and guts rubbish in the ACL, nor will they win many fans abroad - something that may become important in the not too distant future.
Midfielder said | August 18th 2008 @ 10:30pm | Report comment
Westy & Vincentin
SFC has been poorly marketed in many ways and is the wrong location to be a Sydney wide side. Thus the real test will come with the second Sydney side and the gong. These sides will be closer to football heartland.
Redb said | August 19th 2008 @ 7:52am | Report comment
Kazama,
Caught one of those buses from the Adelaise CBD to AAMI a couple of weeks ago for that last showdown ( a poor game unfortunately). I was fully expecting some animated and aggresive ‘discussion’ between Crows and Port fans on the bus home but was surprised that despite Port winnign the game, the banter was fun and good natured. I spotted the odd Port mullet in the crowd, but in general the crowd was just passionate.
Re your comments re playing blood and guts rubbish, I gather this is instead of good technical futbol?
Redb
Andrew said | August 19th 2008 @ 9:41am | Report comment
Some good comments here. Sydney FC is not in an ideal location for the masses. Football’s heartland would be western sydney and the North west. Homebush would be an ideal location for another sydney team but the stadium is just too big and would drown out any atmosphere.
Not sure where the second sydney side would be located. Penrith seems to far.. Perhaps Parramatta?Decent stadium there which would surely fill up. Sydney fc vs 2nd sydney team matches could possibly be played out of homebush in a few years.
The biggest challenge now is coach development. We have a youth league in place, talk of a b-league and grass roots development with small sided games. Lets just hope we can have more coaches like Gary Van E come through the ranks. He seems to be the standout coach at the moment. Vidmar isnt too bad either but needs to prove himself a little more. The standard in technical abilities should be significantly higher in the coming years.
jimbo said | August 19th 2008 @ 10:19am | Report comment
MC,
funny how the A-League opening round crowds keep dropping by about 20% and yet the season averages keep climbing by about 20% over the first 3 seasons.
Don’t know about Melb, but in Sydney the media silence greeting the start of the A-League was deafening.
After a lot of promotion for the AFL and NRL anniversaries their opening round crowds this year were down on last couple of seasons too, but they have bounced back and AFL and NRL averages are now up on last year with the finals still to come.
The 2 best drawing teams in the A-League (MV and QR) weren’t playing at home in the opening round and this will affect the aggregate. MV don’t have a home game till round 3.
Attendances at 2 of the opening 4 A-League games beat their season average of last year, so not all bad.
Like interest rates, the A-League crowds will level out this year to about 15K per game.
When Frank Lowy opened the A-League he said that the game attendances needed to average about 10K to break even, so the League is still in a healthy position.
The other big growth has been in sponsorships and player horse trading which is starting to boost FFA and club revenues. Coupled with the far greater number of well patronised Socceroos matches, the FFA have made a very good financial recovery and should be self sufficient by the start of the next World Cup.
Still will be interested to see how the rest of the A-League season pans out.
But irrespective of this one League, there are a number of football competitions that we can follow all around the world and locally to still get our football fix, even if the A-League folds like the NSL.
For me, its just a short stroll down the road to see some of the best junior football played in Australia.
Michael C said | August 19th 2008 @ 10:24am | Report comment
Kazama -
that’s an interesting one - the break even point at AAMI - - I heard on Friday night that that is a major focus of the AFL - - given AAMI is owned by the SANFL, and the Crows have the same deal apparently, but, it’s not an issue for them.
It obviously burns any club if the break even point is too high………(although, it depends how it’s calculated as well relative to pre-paid members vs walk up cash entry vs agreements with caterers etc).
I might point out when I was working for a very high profile AUst company based in Melb, the CEO was a Port man, and it seemed that having ‘recentralised’ that anyone who was at all proficient and based in Adelaide had relocated to Melb, such, that there were quite a number of Crows and Power supporters in good positions…………..which reminds me of the lady on the radio the other day who revealed the contents of one of her school reports (in the ‘wake’ of revelations of Michael Phelps) - - the nuns at the school put it this way “…..will give satisfaction (to any employer) no matter in what position”
Redb said | August 19th 2008 @ 10:37am | Report comment
Jimbo,
Double page spread in the Melbourne Herald Sun last Friday for A League opening round, similiar coverage in the AGE, was also on the Ch 9 sports news Thursday and Friday nights with a story on Muscat playing as he was doutbful.
Redb
jimbo said | August 19th 2008 @ 10:43am | Report comment
Redb,
thanks for the update.
Curious outlay of money, as there are no A-League games in Melb till round 3 in 2 weeks time.
Redb said | August 19th 2008 @ 10:52am | Report comment
Jimbo,
Just part of the build up to the opening round I presume. There was a fairly big Advert from the Victory for membership in the HS.
Redb