By Malcolm Reed
August 28th 2008 @ 12:03am
Loading ...How can the Waratahs play at Homebush
I’m a long term life member and fervent supporter of the Waratahs through thick and thin, but I was disapointed to read recently in the Sydney Morning Herald that at least one game next season will be played at the Homebush monstrosity.
While I accept that last year, if we had managed the Grand Final commercial realities, it would have meant that the final would have been played at Homebush.
But to play even one game at Homebush is a massive backwards step for the following reasons:
• Homebush is soleless. Even with optimistically 35,000 supporters, the atmosphere is still poor.
• The supporter base of the Northern and Eastern Suburbs are, I believe, against this development.
• With less atmosphere, it will be easier for the opposition to gain an advantage.
• Have we not learnt from the rugby league experience. To paraphrase the Brisbane Broncos’ and Australian captain Darren Lockyer, to play at Leichhardt Oval and Suncorp is great. To play at Homebush? His words say it all: “What was that all about”
• Have the players been asked whether they would rather play at Homebush or the SFS?
• Not surprisingly, this issue has not been canvassed with the loyal supporters.
This decision to make a short term financial gain so that ANZ stadium can presumably sell more meat pies is against the medium term interest of the club, the players, and the results, and will ultimately mean a loss in crowd numbers.
However, I expect that some statistics will be found to justify the move.
I find this decision incredulous and a good reason to again look seriously at the leadership of the Waratahs’ management.
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Al said | August 28th 2008 @ 1:58am | Report comment
Malcolm, I’ll give you three million reasons why they should play at Homebush (before Westy gets in first), because thats the population of Sydney who DON’T live in the Eastern Suburbs/North Shore (and if they’re against it, then even more of a reason!) . I live within walking distance of ANZ and will sure as hell be there!!!
davout said | August 28th 2008 @ 8:33am | Report comment
Wasn’t there one survey that showed that the 75% of the large crowds at ANZ tests came from areas NOT in the Northern & Eastern suburbs that is most came from the north west. And isnt the north west the home of the Beecroft club that currently supplies 3 or 4 Wallabies. Put the Waratahs vs Crusaders in the ANZ and you will get 80k people.
Justin said | August 28th 2008 @ 9:03am | Report comment
Seems a strange move to me when they rarely (when was the last time?) sell out the SFS. Without a lot of promotion they will get nowhere near 80,000 (sorry Davout). I would think somewhere between 45-60,000 tops. Test matches dont get 80,000 so I am not sure how a S14 match will.
Ben said | August 28th 2008 @ 9:10am | Report comment
Malcolm - totally agree with you. I also have been a life member of NSW Rugby for 10+ years, and had no idea that there would be a game played at ANZ. I haven’t attended a rugby match at Homebush for 2 years, and have no intention of ever going there - unless there’s a RWC final played again wtih the Wallabies contesting.
By no means am I saying bring back the Concord Oval days - yes, I was there to see us knocked out in the semi-final in 1987, but Homebush is no environment, stadium or place for rugby. I think the ARU should charge more for playing tests at the SFS and placate their core supporters that want a beer in Paddo before and after a great game of rugby.
Central North said | August 28th 2008 @ 9:12am | Report comment
Why the outcry now, the Tahs were always going to play one regular season match at Homebush from 2009 onwards. It’s in the Stadiums deal signed back in 2005.
See here: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,15932972-2722,00.html
They signed a ten year deal so we all had better get used to it - it’ll be two regular season games from 2011.
And I agree with Al and Davout - Fans from the west, north west as well as the West Harbour/Eastwood corridor - which ANZ Stadium also happens to occupy - will react favourably to the move, which will see the Tahs play the Crusaders at ANZ next year. Done deal.
LeftArmSpinner said | August 28th 2008 @ 9:37am | Report comment
Good article, if not a bit slow off the mark.
There is no way to justify the situation.
The Tahs will never pull a crowd sufficient to make Homebush a viable venue for spectators. I am a SCG/SFS member. The 5-7000 members are expected to play rising annual fees, (this year $990) and dont even get offered a seat in a half empty Homebush stadium, effectively requiring us to purchase the same seat twice if we want to attend!!!
The Tahs are not that good!!!! No event is that good, particularly when the venue, its view and ambience are so poor!
NSWRU, Think again. A very big mistake!!!
Don’t forget that Homebush is an Olympics white elephant that is propped up by the tax payers.
True Tah said | August 28th 2008 @ 9:46am | Report comment
LAS,
I think the Tahs would get 60K+ if the following things were done:
- Ticket prices dropped
- Game played on a sunday afternoon
- They are playing Brumbies or Crusaders
- The NSWRU market the game immensely
I think at best only point 3 could ever be met, as the NSWRU have shown themselves to be useless at marketing and are reluctant to lower ticket prices.
It is a hopeless ground for watching the footy.
The Waratahs should really be averaging at least 30,000 per season, they acheived this a few years ago, and realistically they should be looking at 35,000.
Diplomatic Immunity said | August 28th 2008 @ 9:54am | Report comment
80k to see the Crusaders v Tahs match at ANZ,!?, to quote the Castle ” tell ‘em their dreaming”. Sydneysiders can be a fickle lot when it comes to supporting their teams and many a time I have been to that vacuum that we call Sydney Olympic Stadium/Telstra Stadium/ANZ Stadium for an international rugby match’s and they have struggled to get to 70k ,so to propose that a state rugby team is going to get 80k is as far fetched as suggesting that Rockys 1 match suspension was a fair and just penalty. The shortcomings of that stadium are far to numerous to list individually, suffice to say that it is heartless, cold, isolated and provides none of the pre and post game social opportunities for people who venture to that black hole that is so much what rugby fans are about. This all said from a person who annually hands over his cold hard cash to be a member of that concrete wilderness.
Yikes said | August 28th 2008 @ 10:02am | Report comment
Central North is 100% correct. No statistics, no sinister recent move, this has been on the cards since 2005.
The deal done then secured the future of NSWRU remaining at the SFS when the financial incentive was to move lock, stock and barrel to Stadium Australia.
The Stadium Australia deal was by far the more financially lucrative (and involved moving the team’s training base and NSWRU administration offices to Homebush).
But NSWRU decided that it was better to continue to host their games out of the SFS, for the reasons of convenience for its base supporters and for the better playing atmosphere. It signed this deal for 10 years.
I think, given this, it’s a bit silly to complain about the flexibility of playing the Final, and one “marquee” game out at Stadium Australia. Next year it will be the Crusaders game - there might be a lot of people out West who might never make it out to the SFS who could go. They won’t get 80,000, but they wouldn’t even be thinking of that. If they’re lucky, they might get 55,000, which would still make the whole exercise of massive financial benefit.
The same people decrying this are the same people who argue for more junior development or better marketing of the game or any one of a thousand things that all cost money that rugby currently doesn’t have…
Central North said | August 28th 2008 @ 10:02am | Report comment
Don’t forget though the spectre of a full time move Homebush was the carrot and stick that essentially led to the SCG Trust agreeing to both expand the SFS to 45k capacity AND build the Tahs a new home base.. You can say what you like about the merits of playing at ANZ but i’d call it a good result for the NSWRU.
I just can’t help but have a wry smile when people bash Homebush. If the SFS was the biggest outdoor Stadium in Sydney we’d all be up in arms about our ability - or lack thereof - to attract events that pull big crowds. We’d be left behind.
But when we have a large capacity, world class Stadium - which it is - it’s a “white elephant”, it’s “soleless” (Mal’s spelling, not mine). ANZ Stadium suffers from the fact it agressively pursued a fair chunk of low crowd-pulling League games and the perception that stemmed from that - that it lacks atmosphere - has become fact for Rugby.
Is it just me or does the atmosphere for Swans games at ANZ seem pretty OK? Maybe it’s the quality of the crowd, not the Stadium.
The Tahs may only get 35k, or 40k, or whatever - but it’s one game, and the financial benefit for NSWRU will be considerably more than what it would be for an equivalent crowd at an SFS game. As I said, good result.
I sit in the lower seating bowl at ANZ whenever I am there and I for one don’t mind it. But each to their own agendas..
Central North said | August 28th 2008 @ 10:04am | Report comment
Sorry to duplicate - took a fair amount of time to write the above reply
davout said | August 28th 2008 @ 10:05am | Report comment
I was wiping the tears from my eyes after reading Left Arm Spinner’s account of this financial hardship only to be distracted by Diplomatic Immunity tale of woe. If it is such a bad stadium how come it holds the 109K record for a rugby crowd and howcome when it was first opened you could not get a ticket there for an AB tests. You 2 guys remind me of that movie where the British Army RSM are insisting on the correct application forms to issue ammunition even though the Zulus are coming over the hedges!
True Tah said | August 28th 2008 @ 10:05am | Report comment
Davout,
if the people of the northwest want a waratahs game, then the NSWRU should consider having a game at Parramatta stadium, against say a South African side, who generally struggle to attract more than 20,000 at the SFS anyway, or maybe some of the poorer drawing sides like the Force, Chiefs or Highlanders as well, given the amount of Kiwis in the area this could be a smart move.
Then maybe the Tahs could have a realistic claim to representing the state they purport to.
Worlds Biggest said | August 28th 2008 @ 10:17am | Report comment
This news is very old hat Malcolm. I think everyone is missing the point here, the game is being played at ANZ with a view to growing the game. Isn’t that what it is all about. Rugby will never overtake the other codes if it just sticks to the niche markets of Eastern Suburbs, North Shore and Inner West. If that’s all Rugby wants to do then fine, be a niche sport and consolidate these areas. However if they want to make an impact in Sydneys West ( 2 million population ) then playing ” a ” Tahs game at ANZ is a very logical move. Plenty of people in the West will be keen to go to what will probably be there first Union game. They wont travel to the SFS as it is a logistical nightmare. Everyone acknowledges that the pre & post match activity is limited at Olympic Park but that will change.
Central North said | August 28th 2008 @ 10:19am | Report comment
TT, if you were in fact as your name suggests surely you’d accept, at least to a certain extent, the need for NSWRU to do everything in its power to ensure financial security. The Homebush deal provided that AND resulted in a far better situation for the Tahs at their spiritual home, the SFS.
Best of both worlds surely…
And don’t you think the people of western Sydney have pretty highly defined bulls**t spotting capabilities and would see through any attempt to placate them with some crap game that those in the east/north don’t care greatly for? The poor crowds for the Rams home games at Parra - despite the fact they were the form team of the whole ARC competition - would attest to that, don’t you think?
I’d be very interested to hear from Westy on this one..
True Tah said | August 28th 2008 @ 10:35am | Report comment
Central North,
I guess Im a bit hesitant re: ANZ, because the NRL clubs have copped a lot of flack over the crowds that have attended the venue - a lot of futbol/soccer people were making fun of the NRL clubs when they got 70K to the game verse Red China.
Therefore any Tahs game at ANZ needs to be done in the best possible way it can be, and to be frank, I don’t believe the top brass at NSW Rugby can pull this off, marketing, ticket prices, opponents and scheduling have a big impact here.
A poor crowd at ANZ would be savaged by the Telecrap and Channel 9 big time, whilst I dont pay much attention to these mediums, a lot of people do…it would be bad publicity.
The game would need to be a blockbuster - meaning against the Crusaders or Brumbies, the two strongest sides in Super rugby history, and two sides which have a fair bit of local support here.
I agree with Davo, we should be looking for 80K, call that a bit high, but I like to set bar high, and if I was in NSWRU, I would not aim to be simply content with mediocrity.
LeftArmSpinner said | August 28th 2008 @ 10:42am | Report comment
True Tah, I spend more than $2,500 a year on rugby: tickets/membership, food, parking, playing gear for the kids, Merchandise. I watch more than 100 games of rugby a year across Schoolboys, grade, S14 and Test matches. I have never spent one penny going to Homebush to watch a rugby game. I refuse.
In past years, SCG/SFS members were temporarily placated by a ballot for tickets (crap Homebush Stadium seats, excuse the tautology). Now, we watch it at home. Sad but true.
If you can’t get me (and my three rugby playing sons and their mates) to the game, or don’t respect my commitment sufficiently to recognise that it is obscene to expect me to pay TWICE for 4 seats, for a crap view and without atmosphere, then what chance do you have to get less committed rugby followers to travel to Homebush consistently and in particular, when the team is underperforming?
I sat through every home game in the past 7 years, including season 2007 and the first half of 2008! That was a test of loyalty in itself!!!!
You dont get the same size SFS crowd translating to a crowd at Homebush. The vast majority of members don’t go to Homebush. That is a big hole to fill for a start. Members account for approximately 20-25% of your SFS crowd, remembering that each member can take a guest.
There are solutions but you need a long term view, imagination and negotiations between disparate parties. It is a chicken and egg situation. Value for money is an issue. Homebush has allowed its reputation as a poor arena to become gospel. There’s no changing that, unless you fill it and ramp up the atmosphere.
Here are some thoughts:
Fill SFS first. Then, consider Homebush, but only once there is genuine untapped demand!
Reduce prices and offer free/subsidised tickets to families as part of schools’ promotions.
Each school should have one player with whom they identify as a result of visits.
Offer Schools and rugby clubs free tickets in ballot system prior to the season commencing, including a games against local teams that have also been included in the ballot. e.g. Bathurst Pirates and Lindfield win seats in ballot for their clubs. They play on the Friday evening and then go to the S14 game on Saturday evening, sitting adjacent to eachother. Billeting is encouraged.
When SFS is overcapacity, Members get equivalent free tickets to Homebush.
Run rugby tournaments to co-incide with S14 homebush games and include entry for players, coaches and parents who participate in the tournament.
Reward Refs and team and club officials for their volunteer efforts with two free tickets. Seat them together in one bay and acknowledge them formally before the match.
Invite elite juniors (and their parents) to Homebush games free of charge and acknowledge them before the game so that they feel special.
It is in Homebush’s interests to increase crowds, and hence atmosphere at their venue. They should invest in these activities rather than the upfront financial guarantees currently used.
Recidivist said | August 28th 2008 @ 10:47am | Report comment
Not everyone who goes west gets robbed or glassed. I can vouch for ANZ being quite safe.
In the same way that people from the North and East like the SFS because it is convenient, if the supporter base is to be grown then some games will have to be payed at ANZ.
I reckon the train is pretty convenient for most supporters and means you can go to the bar, have a few beers with mates and roll home..
In the old days at the SFS the biggest noise came from a small collection of poms in one corner vs all the Aussies. ANZ might have had some poor atmospheres but the SFS has not been immune int he past ether.
Rickety Knees said | August 28th 2008 @ 10:53am | Report comment
I agree with True Tah and World Biggest - in the past I have been critical of the NSWRU as looking to cater only for the Eastern Sunburbs, North Shore and Sydney’s inner west. Playing a marquee match at ANZ is worth a go - followed by low key matches at Parramatta, Penrith and Central Coast Bluetongue especially once the S14 goes the full winter season.
It is only when this happens will remote Rugby fans like yours truly feel that the NSWRU is truly looking to grow the game.
Central North said | August 28th 2008 @ 10:54am | Report comment
It will be the Crusaders in 09. The Stadiums deal clearly set out that only “marquee” regular season fixtures are to be played at ANZ. So that’s opponents taken care of.
NSWRU has little to no bearing on scheduling - the Sharks game in ‘06 being played at the SFS the afternoon of the Mardi Gras is a perfect example - so that’s fairly out of their hands also. Ticket prices less so, but they’re set well in advance and cannot be changed at short notice to generate bums on seats. Marketing, well, the ball’s in their court pretty much up to the day of the game.
Call me a hopeless optimist but i’d say NSWRU has the ability to make an ANZ game a success.
I don’t buy soccer people slinging off at NRL clubs as they’re not comparing apples with apples. A Socceroos fixture, by definition on account of it being an international match, will always draw more than an NRL game, or A League game, or whatever. But the various merits of NRL matches being played at ANZ aren’t the subject of this debate.
The Tahs, on account of only having 6/7 home games (excluding playoffs) a season, also occupy a different space to the NRL. Average crowds are higher than the NRL and rightfully so - they’re the only provincial show in town, as opposed to the nine NRL teams. Apples and Oranges.
I’d say any ANZ crowd over and above the capacity of the SFS could be classed as a success in year one - remember, the Tahs have never played there so it’s a real suck it and see situation.
Central North said | August 28th 2008 @ 11:01am | Report comment
LAS - if you feel that strongly it’s probably a good thing you stay at home. Like a fair number of your SCG/SFS member counterparts. Too many times since ‘05 was the vast majority of the SFS full, only for a crowd of 37-39k (Crusaders in 05 was a good example - heaving, yet a crowd of 39,363) to be posted as a result of members not turning up.
The only exception that I saw was for the SF against the Sharks this year - members was packed and pumping, but behind the goals were not. What can you do!
Diplomatic Immunity said | August 28th 2008 @ 11:06am | Report comment
Davout, like any new lollypop flavour everyone wants to have a suck and taste it, so too with the concrete Vacuum called ANZ. Yes it may hold the world record, 109,874 and yes I was at that game, however the true test of time has proven that of those people who tasted in 2000, many, who may be fringe supporters, (and also many who were caught up in the pre Olympics hype) they have voted with their feet and are staying away. It could of course be argued that the quality of play has deteriorated and therefore it is not the stadium but the “product” that is keeping people away and I may concede that point, however what is not arguable is the fact that I am yet to speak to anyone who goes to that ground that speaks glowingly about it. Is it just me or does that seem strange? Why all this pandering to those who live in the west? Take a look at the first grade ladder , of the 12 clubs geographical location all but 3 are located east of the vacuum, and so logic would conclude that’s where the supporter base lies. This is not to suggest that there are not supporters of those clubs outside of those areas but a reality that suggests travelling out to the Vacuum rather than the SFS just won’t happen. Let me pose the question and see who can honestly answer it. A cold wet Friday night in Sydney, Tahs playing a home match to anyone, how many do you realistically believe will bother to beat through the traffic and crowds, on a night when no special transport is turned on, i.e. busses and trains, and attend a match out at the Vacuum and then fight their way home again. Hell they can’t even fill the stadium for the State of Origin with everything working in its favour. They will be lucky to pull 30k, and just to add to the equation, let’s suppose the Tahs are having a bad season. History has proven supporter numbers are directly co-correlate to team success, under that scenario they might as well leave the lights off at the Vacuum because there will be tumbleweed blowing down the ground.
Central North said | August 28th 2008 @ 11:15am | Report comment
I like ANZ Stadium. There, I said it. I liked it when it was called Telstra Stadium, Stadium Australia too.
Others may not, that is their perogative. But spare me the tired cliches about monstrosities, vacuums, etc etc etc. Don’t like it? Then don’t go.
I will be there. I suspect many like me, who live outside the east/north corridor, may join me. Many who do may also. Whatever.
But if members from the SFS (which I also love as a Stadium) don’t come to the party, be it held on a rainy Friday or a beautifully balmy Saturday, then so be it. I’m sure life will go on a tomorrow will indeed come.
LeftArmSpinner said | August 28th 2008 @ 11:19am | Report comment
central north:
If short-term-ism and greed are your criteria, then NSWRU is a winner. Otherwise, the decision has been fundamentally destructive of Rugby’s supporter base, product and brand.
Fill the SFS first. Allow the perception to abound that S14 tickets are at a premium and that you need to get in quickly to get them at all. Then, with demand exceeding supply, and with one game at a time, while looking after the current spectators, and together with clever marketing and freebies, bridge the gap from SFS (48K) to Homebush (80K)
What you lose in revenues from under supply, you gain in brand perception.
Having a successful team is critical and central to all of this.
Homebush is least suited to rugby. Rugby crowds don’t fill it consistently, rugby crowds are less loyal/myopic about their teams (more discerning??? have other entertainment options??? or more fickle????) they are not as vocal as soccer or AFL crowds and rugby crowds are used to the SFS, a great venue for viewing rectangular field codes.
60k is never going to happen under the current strategy, and even if it were achieved, is still not enough to get an exciting atmosphere.
You don’t grow the game in an unsuitable stadium at exorbitant prices!! Forget the location and proximity to Western Sydney, you have lost them before they even consider the location.
The spectator’s decisionmaking process is:
Does it promise to be a good game of rugby?
Will the atmosphere be exciting?
Would my mates or children want to go?
How much will it cost me, all up (tickets, food beers, travel, time) and will the wife agree?
On balance, Is that good value for money and will the wife agree?
If the previous question is answered in the affirmative, where is it and how do I get there and back?
finally, timing is everything. We are going through a belt tightening period. Hardly a time to be disaffecting your current audience so that you can chase another with an inferior offering that offers less value for money!
Central North said | August 28th 2008 @ 11:36am | Report comment
Short term-ism and greed? A ten year, multi million dollar deal from two stadiums that resulted in increased capacity at the ground you play the vast majority of home games AND a new, world class home base?? That’s not short term OR greedy, simply good business practice that ensured the health of the Union for years to come.
Some fans may not like it - I’ve never pretended otherwise. But a majority?? Hardly i’d say.
Just don’t give me this rubbish about this being destrictive for the game, the brand or the fans. It’s one game, or two, then after 2011 maybe three a year until 2015. They’ll still get a decent crowd for each and i’m sure that, bearing on results, the vast majority of the crowd will leave happy.
So let’s not blow this out of proportion.. I can’t see the four horsemen of the apocalypse yet and i’m damn sure we won’t as a result of playing what will only amount to handful of games at Homebush over the next seven years.
True Tah said | August 28th 2008 @ 11:43am | Report comment
LAS,
your points are valid, and I don’t think your commitment/contribution to the game of rugby can be doubted.
I think that having a marquee game at the Stadium would be one of the best advertisments for NSW Rugby, and realistically this is the perfect opportunity to cash in on it. Do not pass up on this opportunity.
Play the game on a Sunday afternoon, I appreciate this is something which is a bit of a rarity in this day and age, but we need to do. It is family friendly, and a lot of blokes who would normally be on the piss after playing on saturday would be able to turn up.
I catch a train to work at West Ryde, and at the station there are two billboards, advertising the Sydney Swans, my question is why the hell are the Waratahs not up there??
This is an absolute necessity in this day and age.
The Waratahs played and lost to the Crusaders in the final - this is the grand final rematch and should market it as such…heres hoping for good Tri Nations and Bledlisloe results, but the Waratahs could potentially piggyback off this as well.
I have no reason to believe that any game between the Tahs and Saders would be boring, they historically have been exciting affairs, in 2007, even with the Tahs plumbing new depths, they played bloody well against the Saders.
Hell, we might even be able to convert a few league supporters in the process of doing so.
Central North,
I wish I could share your optimism, but have been let down too many times, I really do doubt the ability of the NSWRU to pull this off.
LeftArmSpinner said | August 28th 2008 @ 11:43am | Report comment
central north, The SCG Trust, in its wisdom, chose to limit the numbers in the members by not allowing guests to come!!!!!, effectively cutting the member attendance by 50%.
The SCG/SFS Members provide the Tahs with the best purpose built, facilities in professional sport in Australia. Expecting the members, approx 30% of the total SFS audience, to then pay twice for a ticket is unrealistic and naive, not to say stupid when you are attempting to build numbers so that there is a semblance of atmosphere at Homebush.
I am surprised that you place so little importance on the atmosphere and the quality of the view for spectators. Look at the impact of these factors on the NRL crowds.
You achieve nothing and destroy everything if you abandon your current supporter base to chase a new group. Business principles dictate that an existing client/customer/supporter is easier and cheaper to sell to than a new one!!!!
The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. The key is to bring the existing supporters to Homebush by offering them an equivalent product and use this to attract the new audience.
Why are Twickenham, L Road, M Stadium or Stade de Paris full? Because the folklore is that tickets are so hard to come by. The train trip is great fun, chockers but fun. You forget about the journey because of the excitement of the game and the friendly banter. All part of the experience. Its the sizzle not the sausage!!!!! You dont get that at Homebush unless it is full. The Tahs wont fill it, particularly if they ignore their existing supporter base!!!!
NSWRU should escape from Homebush ASAP!!! Its called Negotiation.
mudskipper said | August 28th 2008 @ 11:47am | Report comment
I guess this would be for the Queensland Reds game as the next Brumbies match is in the ACT. Whats the point of a large stadium with a NZ or SA S14 team? Mostly only Tahs supporters will attend…perhaps Homebush needs some rain…
True Tah said | August 28th 2008 @ 11:51am | Report comment
mudskipper,
the Reds have trouble playing their way out of a paper bag, their results improved a lot this year, but they are not a drawcard by any stretch of their imagination.
There are plenty of Saders supporters in Sydney, and they are the signature team of Super rugby.
Additionally the Saders play exciting rugby and winning rugby…only a totally one-sided banana-bender such as Greg Martin would call the Reds style of play refreshing.
The marquee games for the Tahs are the Brumbies and the Saders…hopefully the Force will come to be a new force.
Central North said | August 28th 2008 @ 11:57am | Report comment
I have never debated the dubious logic behind not offering like for like to SCG Trust members and, given ANZ Stadium offers reciprocal deals to opposing team “members” for NRL games, i’d be suprised if something like this hasn’t been discussed.
I don’t recall reading anywhere that SCG Trust members will be locked out or will have to pay double as you say but I am happy for anyone with evidence to prove me incorrect.
Either way, even if what you say is true the NSWRU would not “abandon its current supporter base” - of which I am one - by moving a marquee fixture to Homebush. As stated, I will be there and many of my fellow supporters will be, .
I’m confident there will be atmosphere for a Tahs game at ANZ but I guess the proof will be in the pudding. But you’re dreaming if you think NSWRU will “escape” Homebush ASAP or otherwise. Not without signifcant touching of the toes, so to speak.
mudskipper said | August 28th 2008 @ 12:00pm | Report comment
So you think the Crusaders…I’m not sure about the marketing strategy…encourage all your new fans to attend a game and they the Waratahs get beaten…ouch…The Waratahs wont be as strong next season without Rocky and Vickerman…The Waratahs Hollow men need to look closer?
ANZ Stadium is in trouble perhaps they’ve made a great offer to NSWRU…many of the league clubs want out of ANZ and play more district games.
True Tah said | August 28th 2008 @ 12:09pm | Report comment
mudskipper
im a bit more confident in the playing ability of the waratahs than the nous at management level, Rocky and Vickerman are big losses, but Im more than confident there are guys willing to step up to the mark.
Especially with that big Fijian winger coming on board as well.
The NRL clubs reailistically could never hope to get more than 50% of the capacity of ANZ, the Tigers are perhaps the closest, and besides, they identify with local areas within Sydney, whereas the Tahs purport to represent the STATE of NSW.
Diplomatic Immunity said | August 28th 2008 @ 12:12pm | Report comment
Yep lets pack out the Vacuum with 80,000 people, but also as part of the marketing programe of that great venue everyone with a level six seat should be handed a box of tissues on their way in for the inevitable nose bleeds that are sure to follow.
Worlds Biggest said | August 28th 2008 @ 12:20pm | Report comment
Playing one game at ANZ in 09 is hardly abandoning the core supporter groups as suggested. The anti ANZ feeling stems from those who live in the North Shore and Eastern Suburbs which is a given really. Rugby has never abandoned this constituency and never will. There is no denying SFS is a great place to watch Rugby but once again if the game is to grow ANZ has to be in the picture to capture the Western Sydney market. I agree that ticket pricing is an issue and needs to be seriously revised especially for Families. I agree with LAS about incentives for those involved in grassroots across the board. A lot more needs to be done in this area. Can we not put the games interest first and foremost instead of the continual bickering about Stadiums.
Central North said | August 28th 2008 @ 12:24pm | Report comment
Worlds Biggest, you are my hero. A voice of reason.
jacko said | August 28th 2008 @ 12:49pm | Report comment
“isnt the north west the home of the Beecroft club that currently supplies 3 or 4 Wallabies”
yes it is. but only because they couldnt play for the mighty hornsby lions as juniors as the junior club had folded (now back and giving local kiddies lots of junior rugby club options!).
On a serious note tho if the tah management is having a game at homebush they need to fill lots of seats. So why not give all the junior teams a supply of FREE tickets so each junior club can take a pile of kids for the experiance? Lots of kids player rugby but dont get to SFS games or have foxtel to watch them on. Why not a decent marketing excise to build future support?
LeftArmSpinner said | August 28th 2008 @ 12:57pm | Report comment
SCG/SFS members pay $990 a year for Membership. This includes tickets, but not reserved seats, to all tahs home games at SFS.
Then while increasing the membership fees, they take the best Tahs game/s to Homebush. If I want to go to these games, I have to pay for a ticket/s to Homebush. Fact!
I wont do it. Simple. And most other members are of the same mind.
This is unnecessary as Homebush is not full. It is short-term-ist as it affects the product at its core for every spectator, the atmosphere and the perception of success as measured by crowd numbers. It is also dumb as it disaffects loyal and long term rugby supporters.
Here are the projected crowd numbers. The ’saders usually get 38,000 at SFS. Deduct 5,000 for members and another 5,000 for Eastern Suburbs types who don’t go any further west than Sussex Street, leaving a travelling public of 28,000. I will assume that the approx 30% of the crowd that are NZ’ers will travel from Bondi and E Suburbs to Homebush!!
Equivalent Atmosphere: You need a minimum of 70,000 to get the equivalent atmosphere. That wont happen.
Perceived success: (people still boast about being at the Socceroos WC qualifier game prior to WC2006) You need a minimum of 45,000 to have a perceived successful event from the media POV. That means you need to find another 17,000 people or a 60% increase in the crowd. That wont happen either.
It gets worse the next time you take a game to Homebush. The spectators from the previous year now know that they can’t get either the atmosphere, the excitement of being at a unique, big event and hence consider it to have been poor value for money. The marketing team then has the difficult and more expensive job of targeting and convincing new spectators, just to stay afloat.
Meanwhile, the 10,000 loyal supporters are joined by the disaffected year one spectators and negative public sentiment grows, bringing the whole organisation, brand and code into disarray.
Of the 20,000 that previously attended the less popular SA games, 50% of them are from the disaffected group. They think:
1. Why follow a Comp and a team that effectively marginalises its loyal supporters from attending its showcase games?
2. Even if we turn up to these Homebush games, some paying again for the privilege, the game lacks atmosphere and uniqueness of the equivalent SFS game.
3. They expect us to attend the less popular games anyway.
So tell me where the 17,000 come from year upon year upon year????????
Central North said | August 28th 2008 @ 1:12pm | Report comment
LAS - you have your view and have every right to express it. But please don’t invent a whole bunch of facts and figures to support your argment unless you have evidence to back it up.
What you have written above may look evidence based but unless you produce that evidence it is nothing but opinion dressed up as fact.
I’ve no doubt there are many from the east who won’t travel. But i’m sure at least part if not much of that number will be made up by people who live in the west who can’t be bothered going to the SFS - let’s not pretend that the Moore Park area doesn’t have significant access and traffic difficulties as well.
But regardless, please do not insult the intelligence of all on here by sprouting forth a whole bunch of facts and figures which may or may not have basis in reality. If you make a specific claim, you should be able to back it up.
True Tah said | August 28th 2008 @ 1:15pm | Report comment
LAS,
a lot of Kiwis live in the Western Suburbs as well, in fact Parramatta has a massive number of Kiwis around.
I think a lot of people out West would want to see how it goes, since the Waratahs is supposed to represent them too, and would make up for the 17,000 you say need to be found, I reckon that it could attract at least 70,000, using all the ideas or variants of them on here…hell the Warriors gave away free tickets to NZ passport holders for their semi final back in 2001, why not do the same?
I think the NSWRU should do this on a one year basis, and see how it goes.
This is not a small undertaking, and I believe it can be done successfully and needs to be properly thought out, I appreciate the gripes of SFS/SCG members, but Im sure there needs to be sort of compensation arranged for their loss.
The closest I can think of to something being done like this is Stade Francais repeatedly selling out Stade de France.
A lot of Swans supporters come from the east and north as well, and that hasn’t stopped the blockbuster games attracting over 60,000.
LeftArmSpinner said | August 28th 2008 @ 2:06pm | Report comment
central North. I agree that I should be able to back up my comments. Equally, you should accept the logic if I proivide the back up.
So, l have just rung the SCG. 7500 members and 3500 attend, including guests on average each game. Now, where are those 17K coming from and how will you retain them? And how do you recover the 10,000 lost SFS patrons?
TT, can you really expect to get 70,000 to a provincial game, and as many as an international rugby or soccer game??
“The definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” — Albert Einstein The NRL has tried it with Dragons, Dogs, Tigers, Rabbits and all have failed.
As regards Stade Francais, Paris has 9m people, see Wiki. they compete with only one code. Their competition commenced in 1892, not 12 years ago like s14. they have a great stadium, purposely designed for rectangular sports and a great P transport system.
SO, where are those 17,000 coming from and how will you retain them after offering them an inferior product and less value for money?
mudskipper said | August 28th 2008 @ 2:13pm | Report comment
True Tah… I hope your right and the Tahs compete strongly for the next S14….
Rickety Knees said | August 28th 2008 @ 2:18pm | Report comment
Hey Guys - there is a rumour going around that the Tah’s are looking at a Leaguie to replace Rocky - anybody else heard this one and any idea who it is?
Central North said | August 28th 2008 @ 2:26pm | Report comment
“7500 members and 3500 (??) attend” - I can only assume that the 3500 you refer to are life members, or partners, or guests, or something. Totalled up it’s 11000, right? You are stating that NONE of those 11000 will be willing to go to Homebush, in order to support your theory.
I often go as a guest, as previously stated I was in the members area at the SF this year. I’m going to go to Homebush. My wife too. She was at the SF, for arguments sake, as a guest. Strike two off your total.
Now, I have no way of quantifying how many people like my wife and I there are out there, who would just as happily attend ANZ as the SFS. However, I will accept your logic if you accept mine. If my wife and I, who are regular guests of SCG members, would happily attend Homebush, then surely there must be others like us.
Notwithstanding my confusion as to the 17k you refer to in your second paragraph (i’m guessing that means the total of patrons who turned up to the final game of 2007 - yep, I was one of those too, albeit in the plebs area), I fail to see how you can claim that the 10000 (11000??) patrons from the SFS will be “lost”.
You quote Enistein. That’s nice. Don’t quite know how you think the NSWRU will be doing “the same thing over and over again” however, given the Tahs have not yet played out at Homebush. But it’s a nice quote that seems, on the surface, to back up your theory.
Thanks for calling the Trust thought. Cleared a lot of things up.
Diplomatic Immunity said | August 28th 2008 @ 2:51pm | Report comment
Central North, looks like I cancel you out. I wont, nor will my son be attendending a Tahs match at the Vacuum. Add to that the two guests that I could potentially bring to the SFS as well, so that puts you a further two behind. Take into account the fact that I too am a SFS/SCG member as well as a Vacuum member. There is no way in hell I would consider trudging out to watch the tahs at the Vacuum, yet have been to all but a couple of their home matches over the last 4 years or so. On a major match night at the Vacuum when they turn on all the additional transport its not great but bearable, to take the 45 mins it takes me to get their by bus. However from where I live there is no train option, so on those other evenings when the additional transport is not supplied, ( and my guess is that this will be for the Tahs matches at the Vacuum as there wont be the dough to pay for it) going by bus on the standard bus routes would take up to 1 3/4 hours. I doubt I would do that for an All Blacks match let alone a match v crusaders. (dont forget the best you can hope for is a Crusaders match ervery other year, so who gets dished up in between?) So what do you suggest?
True Tah said | August 28th 2008 @ 2:53pm | Report comment
LAS,
whether we get 70,000 or not is irrelevant, although I would certainly be hoping for it.
Re SF, they normally average 12,000 at their home ground, the Waratahs averaged 25,000 this year, plus you average Parisan wouldn’t know anything about rugby, whereas I would be more confident that a lot of Sydneysiders have some knowledge of rugby.
If the Tahs go to Homebush and get a Souths/Dragons type crowd, then I would agree with you and say that ANZ Stadium should be struck off the list of future venues for the Tahs.
Central North said | August 28th 2008 @ 3:01pm | Report comment
What do I suggest? God knows. The only thing I know for absolute certain is that I don’t have the answers. LeftArmSpinner doesn’t. You don’t either, although i’m puzzled as to why you pay your hard earned to be a member at ANZ Stadium when you clearly despise the place. But I digress.
At no point have I claimed to know for sure what will happen, unlike others. If all or none of those who regularly attend the SFS will attend ANZ. I have simply speculated that some, not all, not none, will go to both. Fair call I think.
As for what I suggest… well, I suggest that we could go around and around like this for hours, days, weeks, and months, and still not prove anything. We won’t know conclusively until the mighty Tahs play the Crusaders at ANZ Stadium in 2009. And the Brumbies in 2010.
But until that time, as I said hours ago, we shall just have to wait and see.
Diplomatic Immunity said | August 28th 2008 @ 3:25pm | Report comment
Central - Fair enough. However I as said one of the deal breakers for me will be the transport issue, even then on a Friday night game it becomes difficult when you take into account what time you get home with kids sport the next day. My guess is a Saturday game (assuming the draw hasn’t been done yet?) I’m also guessing that the special event transport will not be on and as a result attendance will be pathetic. Let’s use the assumed benchmark that was mentioned earlier for a Crusaders match at 35,000. Anything less than that and the exercise has been a failure.
As to your point regarding my hard earned being wasted, just to fill in the picture I do like my sport, greater in some instances than my dislike of venues. Therefore I was forced into a corner when the “free” reciprocal tickets we received from the SFS were removed and we then had to pay for the crappy seats we were previously getting for “free” to see the same events that traditionally, pre 2000, were at the venues that we had supported for years via membership fees before they were siphoned off to the Vacuum. As such I wanted to see those major events, which meant shelling out the cash for good (bear in mind when I say “good” I’m doing it in the context of what they offer, gold, silver, bronze) seats. 5 major events with the best seating option equalled the annual fees at the Vacuum. Sure there was the once up fee of $2200 per card over the remaining life of the membership (2030), this adds only another $91.00 to the cost per year. It seemed a no brainer if I wanted “good” seats to the events I wanted to continue to see.
Central North said | August 28th 2008 @ 3:33pm | Report comment
Fair call on the hard earned factor Diplomatic Immunity, I understand the mathematics. Thanks to your reply I have also gained an insight into why those such as yourself and LAS are so against Homebush - put in a historical context, you’re getting a bum deal compared to that you once recieved at the SFS/SCG.
So from that perspective, all the debate has been worth it.
I guess i’m just coming from the other side of it - i’m a GA type of guy, although i’ve been a season ticket holder in the past. The only time I “get upstairs” is when i’m on the invite of one of you blokes, which is always appreciated. Plus, the view down to Tah Man jumping out of the chopper at the semi final was one I won’t forget in a hurry. If only all pre-match entertainment was as outstanding as that!
I guess what i’m trying to say is i’ve enjoyed the vigourous debate and i’ve actually learned something. AND I would be only too happy to buy either yourself or LAS a beer at ANZ Stadium some day, if only to offset a small percentage of your costs!!!!!
Diplomatic Immunity said | August 28th 2008 @ 3:45pm | Report comment
Cheers! I might even take you up on that.
As for Tah Man I dont know whether to laugh or cry. Amazing stuff!
Blue Sue said | August 28th 2008 @ 3:59pm | Report comment
Central North
I’m with you!
I don’t understand how grumpy and negative some rugby people can be.
Yes, I come from a rugby family. We have Waratah Life memberships, Wallaby First memberships, ANZ memberships….you couldn’t ever say that we aren’t committed rugby tragics. We have all of those memberships to avoid the hassles of the past in having to have dialling fingers ready at 9 am when tickets went on sale for matches and being disappointed when missing out. We too have sat through the bad times, as well as the good, and have travelled miles to do it. We have travelled all over NZ and if you’ve ever sat on the Terraces in Auckland with someone’s knees in your back, in horizontal rain and howling wind in the cake tin or in -5 degrees in Christchurch sleet to support the Wallabies, then travelling to ANZ on a warm event bus is bliss.
There are of course, positives and negatives about every location. Everyone can’t have a stadium around the corner from their house and that means you have to travel. Why is it that those from the East and North “refuse” to travel? I am sorry, but I fail to understand that attitude. It’s the old “I’ll take my bat and ball and go home” type of stuff.
There are a number of big Tah games every year. Games againt the NZ teams always have a better attendance, because of the ex pat NZ and Islander communities here in Sydney. The Brumbies game is always big, and if you check the car park, it is full of cars with Brumby stickers that have taken the trip up the Highway. For some reason the SA games don’t seem to attract as many Bok fans, but for the semi-final last year they all came out of the woodwork and you couldn’t park anywhere near the place.
The games against the Crusaders and Brumbies are ideal to take to ANZ.
You will pick up ANZ members that use their tickets to watch all sports. We do. We go the the rugby, the soccer, the Swans games and NRL Big games. We have 9 in our group and 2 of those that we took to Tahs games last year with our Tahs member tickets are now buying memberships of their own.
There are thousands of kids from schools and clubs west of ANZ that could be in receipt of free tickets. These are given out now for the SFS, but how many times do you see the ends of the ground empty? That’s because it is too difficult to get the kids into the city. A struggling club has to then pay for the cost of a bus to get them all there. ANZ is closer to where the population is, and the free buses to the ground offer a fabulous service.
LAS and Dip I
How about you travel west along Parramatta road, leave early to miss the traffic and find the Wentworth Hotel. Great rugby atmosphere, huge car park, fabulous pub food, games room for the kids, they put on free shuttle buses that drop you off right at the door and then pick you up after. The adults love it, the kids all love it, and after all…………..when you go with a positive attitude you can enjoy the company, the game and the whole experience.
Come to think of it…..that’s what we used to do way back in the old days when we would park down near the 4inHand, have a meal and a few drinks and then wander up the hill to the old Sports Ground.
It appears though, that some of us, have moved on!
Ooops, sorry! Ignore all of the above.
Those of us that enjoy our rugby, no matter where we have to travel to see it, would rather enjoy it no matter where it was, and I would be really seriously peeved if I arrived to find LAS or Dip I, with their negative attitudes, in the seat next to me.
Shaun said | August 28th 2008 @ 4:25pm | Report comment
Blue Sue– I was thinking the same earlier today, my sentiments exactly! Let’s not forget when the deal was signed to send
a marquee game per year to ANZ(increasing to 2 later)– in 2005 when 38k came to see the Reds! The deal only looks silly now because of 2007.
LAS- your idea of building up to 40k then moving is exactly what they did, only in 2005.
H-RAINE said | August 28th 2008 @ 5:14pm | Report comment
i think play at the sfs
Worlds Biggest said | August 28th 2008 @ 5:27pm | Report comment
Bravo Blue Sue, you are a true bona fida supporter no matter where the game is played. If only there were more people like you supporting Rugby. As Central North alluded to you could have the Stadium debate for hours, days, weeks and years and still have people for and against. LAS and Dip have argued there points well and everyone has there own opinion but the reality is that the Tahs are at ANZ in the future so let’s move on. I think everyone agrees it’s now up to the intelligencia at NSW Rugby to make it work.
Davout said | August 28th 2008 @ 7:23pm | Report comment
Blue Sue
Where’s the Wentworth Hotel?
Maybe we can get LAS and Dip Imm out to Homebush by blindfolding them before they cross Sussex street.
Blue Sue said | August 28th 2008 @ 8:53pm | Report comment
Davout
For future reference…..just a little bit west of Sussex Street…..along Parramatta Road, at Homebush (directly opposite the entrance to Flemington Markets).
LeftArmSpinner said | August 29th 2008 @ 1:41am | Report comment
central, There are 7,500 members in total. About 3,500 of them attend S14 games on average. Closer to 5000 for Crusaders and QLD games.
There are usually about 38,000 people at a Crusaders game at the SFS. Most of the members will not go out to Homebush, because they have to pay again for a seat and the venue has no atmosphere.
Of the remaining 33,000 spectators, about 5,000 are non travelling types. You have dropped 10,000 spectators (Members and non travellers) before you even start.
Taking a game to homebush and replicating the SFS crowd is not deemed a success and will adversely affect the brand and code. Success demands an increase in the crowd to 45,000, as a minimum.
Given that you are already 10,000 spectators (members and non travellers) down on the 38,000 SFS spectators, and you need an additional 7,000 (38,000+7,000=45,000) to make it a minimal success, you need to find 17,000 extra spectators!
I just dont see where these will come from, given that the stadium will be half full and hence have no atmosphere. Second year will be even harder.
As regards getting the SFS crowd to 40,000, I didnt say that. I proposed that you needed to build an excess of demand over supply. i.e. 50-55,000 people wanting to go to a tahs match (with seats only for 48,000) and then ensure that you move that whole group to the new venue. Even then, to replicate the SFS atmosphere, you will need at least 70,000.
As regards my Einstein comment, the NRL has tried Homebush and failed dismally. Crowds are falling, not rising. Lets not repeat the same mistake and then take years to let the mistake play out.
With Dip Immunity, I am trying to explain my view of the situation. If NSWRU can’t get Dip Immunity who is a rugby nut and member at homebush to the venue, or even me a committed rugby follower to the venue, they won’t get and retain less committed rugby spectators.
It is due to the venue design and its lack of suitability to rectangular field games. It is a venue that has fundamental problems as a result of being a compromised design by trying to provide both oval and rectangular venues.
Diplomatic Immunity said | August 29th 2008 @ 9:14am | Report comment
Blue Sue, Davout, just for the record I actually live west of Sussex St but that’s not the point. LAS makes the point, it’s a square peg into a round hole out at the Vacuum. I love the SCG as a ground. For cricket or AFL spot on. But for a rectangular game, i.e. rugby or league, give me the SFS anytime. I often say the worse seat in the house at the SFS is still better than the best seat in the house at Homebush. The amount of times I hear people say they spent most of the game watching the big screens underscores one of the inherent problems you have with big grounds, you end up being a long way from the action, and that’s leaving aside all the other previously discussed issues with that ground.
LeftArmSpinner said | August 29th 2008 @ 9:45am | Report comment
Dip Imm, I’m with you all the way. I’ve sat in the 15th row of Homebush members, up in the members stand on the upper levels, on the corner, in the very back row in the nose bleed and in the gantry level at the end of the ground.
But, a picture tells a thousand stories. Check this photo out and you will see why the stadium is so lacking in good views and atmosphere.
http://www.anzstadium.com.au/Events/SeatingPlan.aspx (and Yes, I know that the panoramic lens photo does exaggerate the issue)
The stadium layout is low and flat and, because of the moveable seating on either sideline, those in the two major stands behind the moveable seating are set back too far from the field.
According to the homebush seating plan, it goes back