Comments on: And the winners are: the All Blacks and the ELVs! http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/ The Roar is a sports opinion website. We tackle sports opinion rather than simply sports news. And we embed user-generated content — in the form of articles and comments — into the fabric of the site. Featuring some of the best sports writers in Australia — including the Sydney Morning Herald's Spiro Zavos — The Roar aims to be the leading sports website in Australia. Thu, 08 Jan 2009 18:35:16 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.5 By: Mark http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-73607 Mark Wed, 17 Sep 2008 05:00:05 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-73607 Vincent - Cross was great on attack, there's some good players coming through teh Wallabies. In two years time (just in time for the WC) you should have one heck of a team with respectable depth. Next year should be VERY interesting to watch the progress. Cross is awesome but green, another year or two should see him being an excellent palyer. ACC is coming along well (how hard is he to tackle !) , Tuquiri has to be on Robbie's endangered list, Mortlock is still consistently one of your best players, I'll breath a sign of relief when he retires, Brown was an eyeopener, when Palu came off I thought 'that's it, here comes our 15 point win' how can your sub be better than your run-on ??? The game was brilliant, as Spiro said in another thread, fairly even in the lineout (you won one against teh throw & we had less throws so that was your victory), Kaplan should have pinged baxter for boring every scrum, but the game was won at teh breakdown which was a huge contest. That last 4 minutes were nerve wracking, haven't yelled that much at the screen in ages ! Well done Aus, you've come second in the 3N, only just lost the Bledisloe, & won in SA, as well as blooded some good players. Look forward to next year when Robbie's had a season to get the replacements on song & your loose forward mix/front row firing on all cylinders. I hope I'm not staring at a couple of lean years for the AB's against the Wallabies, don't think so but sooner or later you're going to get some silverware back....just as long as it isn't Bill ! Vincent - Cross was great on attack, there’s some good players coming through teh Wallabies. In two years time (just in time for the WC) you should have one heck of a team with respectable depth. Next year should be VERY interesting to watch the progress. Cross is awesome but green, another year or two should see him being an excellent palyer. ACC is coming along well (how hard is he to tackle !) , Tuquiri has to be on Robbie’s endangered list, Mortlock is still consistently one of your best players, I’ll breath a sign of relief when he retires, Brown was an eyeopener, when Palu came off I thought ‘that’s it, here comes our 15 point win’ how can your sub be better than your run-on ???

The game was brilliant, as Spiro said in another thread, fairly even in the lineout (you won one against teh throw & we had less throws so that was your victory), Kaplan should have pinged baxter for boring every scrum, but the game was won at teh breakdown which was a huge contest. That last 4 minutes were nerve wracking, haven’t yelled that much at the screen
in ages !

Well done Aus, you’ve come second in the 3N, only just lost the Bledisloe, & won in SA, as well as blooded some good players. Look forward to next year when Robbie’s had a season to get the replacements on song & your loose forward mix/front row firing on all cylinders.

I hope I’m not staring at a couple of lean years for the AB’s against the Wallabies, don’t think so but sooner or later you’re going to get some silverware back….just as long as it isn’t Bill !

]]> By: Jerry http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-73429 Jerry Tue, 16 Sep 2008 23:18:26 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-73429 Vincent - Cross also got sold a huge dummy by Sivi that lead to Weepu's try. There was no excuse to let someone waltz through untouched when the ball had taken so long to come out of the ruck. Vincent - Cross also got sold a huge dummy by Sivi that lead to Weepu’s try. There was no excuse to let someone waltz through untouched when the ball had taken so long to come out of the ruck.

]]> By: vincent http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-73425 vincent Tue, 16 Sep 2008 23:06:48 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-73425 As crushed as I was and still is, I've grown tired of reading rugby web sites that seem to have the All Black commentators crowing away.....like Spiro I think Ryan Cross was outstanding..does anyone think like I do that Ryan Cross has nailed down a starting position with the Wallabies? I thought that apart from his defensive lapse (and Mortlocks weak cover) that led to a carter try, he seemed to make alot of ground with ball in hand..Richard Brown with his abrasive play impressed me too..I have not been able to watch any replays but once I get over the emotion I might notice the game for what it was...at the moment like the Wallabies I need a 2 week emotional rugby rest until the tour starts. As crushed as I was and still is, I’ve grown tired of reading rugby web sites that seem to have the All Black commentators crowing away…..like Spiro I think Ryan Cross was outstanding..does anyone think like I do that Ryan Cross has nailed down a starting position with the Wallabies? I thought that apart from his defensive lapse (and Mortlocks weak cover) that led to a carter try, he seemed to make alot of ground with ball in hand..Richard Brown with his abrasive play impressed me too..I have not been able to watch any replays but once I get over the emotion I might notice the game for what it was…at the moment like the Wallabies I need a 2 week emotional rugby rest until the tour starts.

]]> By: Benjamin http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-73396 Benjamin Tue, 16 Sep 2008 20:30:17 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-73396 Spinner, I would suggest that you're propogating much of that hubris. I can't imagine that blindly accepting something without considering any potential critiques can be considered anything other than grandly arrogant. I would love you to analyse all of the 3N games individually and assess the positive impact of the ELVs on those games. I would also like you to consider the need for change. I would like you to consider the qualifications of those involved in the LPG. I would like you to consider the IRB mismanagement of the ELVs. I would like you to consider that a section of the ELVs are awfully thought out and have propogated nothing but cyncial rugby. I would love you to consider the NH's democratic right to ignore the ELVs having stridently voted against them. I would love you to consider all of the above, but you won't. I asked you before and you don't respond. I think therefore that that silence is louder than any analysis you could offer - because there is nothing eminating from your corner but exagerrated sentiment. Lem, that's very interesting. Would you be able to expand on that? Spinner, I would suggest that you’re propogating much of that hubris. I can’t imagine that blindly accepting something without considering any potential critiques can be considered anything other than grandly arrogant. I would love you to analyse all of the 3N games individually and assess the positive impact of the ELVs on those games. I would also like you to consider the need for change. I would like you to consider the qualifications of those involved in the LPG. I would like you to consider the IRB mismanagement of the ELVs. I would like you to consider that a section of the ELVs are awfully thought out and have propogated nothing but cyncial rugby. I would love you to consider the NH’s democratic right to ignore the ELVs having stridently voted against them. I would love you to consider all of the above, but you won’t. I asked you before and you don’t respond. I think therefore that that silence is louder than any analysis you could offer - because there is nothing eminating from your corner but exagerrated sentiment.

Lem, that’s very interesting. Would you be able to expand on that?

]]> By: Lem http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-73382 Lem Tue, 16 Sep 2008 17:57:47 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-73382 LeftArmSpinner: There were 23 ELVs, not 33. The GP is trialling 13 of them, including two that weren't trialled in the S14. The S14 also trialled 13, including two that are not included in the global trial. If we can't assess anything from the global trial, the same must be true of the S14 trial. LeftArmSpinner: There were 23 ELVs, not 33. The GP is trialling 13 of them, including two that weren’t trialled in the S14. The S14 also trialled 13, including two that are not included in the global trial. If we can’t assess anything from the global trial, the same must be true of the S14 trial.

]]> By: LeftArmSpinner http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-73242 LeftArmSpinner Tue, 16 Sep 2008 05:20:44 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-73242 Colin, The judgement is about the ELVs in GP, not the tournament itself. Ian Noble, dont waste your time expecting to be able to assess the ELVs from the GP. They are trialing only 13 of the 33. Jim, Simple but good assessment. I agree completely. A no brainer really if you are talking about the rugby that results from them. There is too much hubris, poor logic and self interest to conclude anything other than that the ELV argument is about the undercurrent of who controls rugby. Danny, we have all learnt that RWC focus too far out is disasterous, just ask G Henry. He has adjusted his focus, to his credit. Colin, The judgement is about the ELVs in GP, not the tournament itself.

Ian Noble, dont waste your time expecting to be able to assess the ELVs from the GP. They are trialing only 13 of the 33.

Jim, Simple but good assessment. I agree completely. A no brainer really if you are talking about the rugby that results from them. There is too much hubris, poor logic and self interest to conclude anything other than that the ELV argument is about the undercurrent of who controls rugby.

Danny, we have all learnt that RWC focus too far out is disasterous, just ask G Henry. He has adjusted his focus, to his credit.

]]> By: Jim http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-73135 Jim Tue, 16 Sep 2008 00:48:09 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-73135 I can't understand how people can knock the ELVs. With quick tap kicks to keep play going the game is so much faster, there is so much more action. It also gives the ref more options to do something that is not going to be as severe as giving away 3 points, as was often the case for a relatively minor infringement, eg getting pinned at the bottom of a ruck on the wrong side. The play can now be restarted with a minimum of impact on the flow. I can’t understand how people can knock the ELVs. With quick tap kicks to keep play going the game is so much faster, there is so much more action. It also gives the ref more options to do something that is not going to be as severe as giving away 3 points, as was often the case for a relatively minor infringement, eg getting pinned at the bottom of a ruck on the wrong side. The play can now be restarted with a minimum of impact on the flow.

]]> By: Benjamin http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-73078 Benjamin Mon, 15 Sep 2008 20:31:08 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-73078 Ian, I think that the Butch James debacle proves that in reality tries don't win games, penalties do. I have to disagree with your scrum argument though - their is no short hand so teams are given full penalties. I was at that double header too and I agree that the sides involved were perhaps the best practioners to make the ELVs look seamless. Less organic and more mechanic sides like Bristol and Leicester may not make for such attractive games. That, I think, proves very effectively that the most significant aspect of rugby is the aims and objectives of the teams. Leciester, Harlequins and Wasps were playing attractive rugby pre-ELVs and they will continue to do so now. I think your even-handed response is exactly the sort of approach offered my the majority of NH fans... but shush, don't spoil the witch hunt. There's a bogey man on the loose and it's the NH! Damn their rich European hides! Ian, I think that the Butch James debacle proves that in reality tries don’t win games, penalties do. I have to disagree with your scrum argument though - their is no short hand so teams are given full penalties. I was at that double header too and I agree that the sides involved were perhaps the best practioners to make the ELVs look seamless. Less organic and more mechanic sides like Bristol and Leicester may not make for such attractive games. That, I think, proves very effectively that the most significant aspect of rugby is the aims and objectives of the teams. Leciester, Harlequins and Wasps were playing attractive rugby pre-ELVs and they will continue to do so now.

I think your even-handed response is exactly the sort of approach offered my the majority of NH fans… but shush, don’t spoil the witch hunt. There’s a bogey man on the loose and it’s the NH! Damn their rich European hides!

]]> By: Ian Noble http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-73073 Ian Noble Mon, 15 Sep 2008 20:05:10 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-73073 Spiro I wasn’t able to watch the Wallabies v AB’s game live, but I have read a number of reports both NH and SH about the game and I really wonder whether the ELV’s made such a difference to the game, which would have probably been just as intense and exciting under the old rules. On the ELV’s I have kept my powder dry until I have seen a few matches played in the GP. I was at the London Double header at Twickenham where together with another 52000 I was able to watch two GP games, Wasps v London Irish and Saracens v Quins. In looking back over both games my initial impression was if I just arrived from Mars after a few months would I have noticed any differences from the previous season, the answer probably is no. Both the eventual winners London Irish and Quins were renowned for their fast open style of play last season and so it continued in both games. However, both London Irish and Quins through Catt and Hewat for the Irish and Care, Brown and Evans for Quins were excellent at kicking out of hand. Not too much difference from before although with the ELV’s to avoid a ping pong kicking game the ability to recognise space behind the back line and bounce the ball in play is more important than before. Not just the space but the real skill of pace on the kick to allow the chase to be successful. Obviously, a lot of practice had gone into the kicking game and following on last Saturday two of the five tries scored by Quins v Bristol were mistakes by Bristol in allowing defenders to be caught in possession and quick turnover through not just the backs but the speedy back row following up the kick creating the opportunities. At the base of the scrum both Irish and Quins were better at exploiting the 5M rule with the respective scrum halves in particular playing a big part. Danny Care for Quins created a try for Strettle v Saracens from a scrum in the 22 within 53 seconds of kick off through speed off the mark and putting Strettle into space. Danny Care followed up with an excellent game v Bristol, where his decision making was spot on coupled with his speed off the mark creating space for others through exploiting the 5M rule. I wasn’t too impressed by the lineout play in all the games, there seemed to be some confusion and in the main they were very scrappy, It will probably settle down although another observation was the speed of the chase in the main negated the ability to use the quick throw in, with the chasers purposely positioned to prevent the quick throw backwards. There seemed to be more scrums, no stats to hand, as I suspect the attacking side can bring more structure to their game and obviously exploit the 5M rule. Interestingly refs in the NH have been instructed to be severe at the breakdown and quickly penalise teams who kill the ball. As long as there is consistency then it will not be a problem and will discipline teams to quickly recycle the ball with the hope that the number of penalties will reduce over the course of the season. I know on another blog you headlined by saying “ELV’s in the UK are Ok”, probably something of an exaggeration as in true Brit fashion they are here and we shall make a good fist of them. Whether they have improved the game the jury is out and it will only be in the course of a few more games as teams get to grips with the ELV’s will views become clearer. The overall impression at the moment is the games are scrappy with little structure, but hopefully that will settle down. One myth that has been destroyed is that the importance of place kicking will be reduced under the ELV’s, not the case as Butch James will testify his poor place kicking with 5 kickable opportunities lost Bath a comfortable win v Gloucester, not to mention J W and his 22 points out 34 for Newcastle Falcons v Northampton Saints. Spiro

I wasn’t able to watch the Wallabies v AB’s game live, but I have read a number of reports both NH and SH about the game and I really wonder whether the ELV’s made such a difference to the game, which would have probably been just as intense and exciting under the old rules.

On the ELV’s I have kept my powder dry until I have seen a few matches played in the GP.

I was at the London Double header at Twickenham where together with another 52000 I was able to watch two GP games, Wasps v London Irish and Saracens v Quins. In looking back over both games my initial impression was if I just arrived from Mars after a few months would I have noticed any differences from the previous season, the answer probably is no. Both the eventual winners London Irish and Quins were renowned for their fast open style of play last season and so it continued in both games.

However, both London Irish and Quins through Catt and Hewat for the Irish and Care, Brown and Evans for Quins were excellent at kicking out of hand. Not too much difference from before although with the ELV’s to avoid a ping pong kicking game the ability to recognise space behind the back line and bounce the ball in play is more important than before. Not just the space but the real skill of pace on the kick to allow the chase to be successful. Obviously, a lot of practice had gone into the kicking game and following on last Saturday two of the five tries scored by Quins v Bristol were mistakes by Bristol in allowing defenders to be caught in possession and quick turnover through not just the backs but the speedy back row following up the kick creating the opportunities.

At the base of the scrum both Irish and Quins were better at exploiting the 5M rule with the respective scrum halves in particular playing a big part. Danny Care for Quins created a try for Strettle v Saracens from a scrum in the 22 within 53 seconds of kick off through speed off the mark and putting Strettle into space. Danny Care followed up with an excellent game v Bristol, where his decision making was spot on coupled with his speed off the mark creating space for others through exploiting the 5M rule.

I wasn’t too impressed by the lineout play in all the games, there seemed to be some confusion and in the main they were very scrappy, It will probably settle down although another observation was the speed of the chase in the main negated the ability to use the quick throw in, with the chasers purposely positioned to prevent the quick throw backwards.

There seemed to be more scrums, no stats to hand, as I suspect the attacking side can bring more structure to their game and obviously exploit the 5M rule. Interestingly refs in the NH have been instructed to be severe at the breakdown and quickly penalise teams who kill the ball. As long as there is consistency then it will not be a problem and will discipline teams to quickly recycle the ball with the hope that the number of penalties will reduce over the course of the season.

I know on another blog you headlined by saying “ELV’s in the UK are Ok”, probably something of an exaggeration as in true Brit fashion they are here and we shall make a good fist of them. Whether they have improved the game the jury is out and it will only be in the course of a few more games as teams get to grips with the ELV’s will views become clearer. The overall impression at the moment is the games are scrappy with little structure, but hopefully that will settle down. One myth that has been destroyed is that the importance of place kicking will be reduced under the ELV’s, not the case as Butch James will testify his poor place kicking with 5 kickable opportunities lost Bath a comfortable win v Gloucester, not to mention J W and his 22 points out 34 for Newcastle Falcons v Northampton Saints.

]]> By: Colin N http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-73048 Colin N Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:13:30 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-73048 Can people on these pages not judge the GP until you've seen highlights or something. Go on: http://www.itv.com/Sport/RugbyUnion/default.html. You may not be able to watch the highlights in your country but you may as well try. Can people on these pages not judge the GP until you’ve seen highlights or something. Go on:

http://www.itv.com/Sport/RugbyUnion/default.html.

You may not be able to watch the highlights in your country but you may as well try.

]]> By: Benjamin http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-73039 Benjamin Mon, 15 Sep 2008 14:31:59 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-73039 OJ, I think that depends on the season, for example some of the play-off games over the past four years have been very fast. I would also say that last season and this season there has been a definite icrease in the pace of most teams play - aside from one or two teams most coaches have been engaging with a completely new approach. The 03 England team had the abilty to play fast and slow and I would say that the premiership is much, much faster now than then. I would say that a big problem is the clubs that certain players choose. Mauger was never going to be liberated at Leicester, likewise look what Wasps have done with Flutey. OJ, I think that depends on the season, for example some of the play-off games over the past four years have been very fast. I would also say that last season and this season there has been a definite icrease in the pace of most teams play - aside from one or two teams most coaches have been engaging with a completely new approach. The 03 England team had the abilty to play fast and slow and I would say that the premiership is much, much faster now than then. I would say that a big problem is the clubs that certain players choose. Mauger was never going to be liberated at Leicester, likewise look what Wasps have done with Flutey.

]]> By: Danny http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-73036 Danny Mon, 15 Sep 2008 14:14:39 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-73036 Ok, firstly, I'm SO SICK of everyone talking about the W.C. all the time - it is like an obsession; 5 minutes after the last one has ended, we start using that horrible management-speak/weasel-word "rebuilding phase", and lots more cliches spew forth. By talking about the WC so much we demean the tests it's FOUR YEARS AWAY PEOPLE. Also on the WC, if the Old Tie Club doesn't give the AT LEAST on of the two next WCs to Japan or Argentina (preferably both), I'll be furious; I'll be more furious at the Old Tie Club (thats you, Mr Growden) media who don't support the developing nations getting a WC, as the man in question is on record as supporting NZ getting the WC AGAIN in 2011, over Japan for some insane reason (some dubious comments about "size" and something vague about "never grow the game in Asia", and something that sounded suspiciously like "can't wait for Saturdays game with the other 5 men and a dog and my free sausage sizzle down at rat park". Look, I like Sydney club rugby as much as the next person, but the mulleted (15 years too late) Maty Rogers really was correct about club rugby - almost refusing to play for Sthn districts! The future is NOT in having a kick and a run and some beers on a Sat arvo on the green expanses of Sydney Uni. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that all our sports in Australia (and England) aren't like in America where you HAVE to be top-notch to even have a run in a sport like gridiron (only 2 teams in each high-school, no full-contact amateur club competitions); BUT glorifying suburban rugby over including Buenos Aires and Tokyo in Super 14 is madness...Really, soccer is far more intelligently marketed than rugby. Now, I am an Australian fan and it was dissapointing to lose, however we are improving and if Barnes was there we may well have won. On that note, I think the Tugboat, Rod Kafer, has a point in swapping Gits and Barnes - at least give it a go on the Spring Tour... I've been a fan of Waugh for ages but, yes, perhaps he is past his prime however he should still be on the tour. I'm afraid ol' Chrome Dome (as someone hilariously dubbed Mortlock on a previous post!) will have to hang up the boots soon... End of an Era. In regards to Kearns being biased, well maybe slightly, he's allowed to be - we need 1 Buddha-esque commentator. Oh and PLEASE don't say that Ch 7s commentary is good - it was GREAT when Poido (intelligent analysis) and Buddha (over-the-top comic passion) were there, before some idiot marketing 'guru' from the ARU or Ch 7 got on the blower and told them to 'get some new faces'. Horan (great player) and Crowlley (average player) add nothing to the (stilll) very good Gordon Bray. Actually, isn't it interesting to compare to dulcet tones of Union chief commentators Bray and Clarkie on Fox, and Mr North Shore-leather elbow patches himself, the former ABC rugby commentator Jim Maxwell, to the croaking, orgasmic shout of that interminable fool Ray "Rabs" Warren,,( he who considers League the "opera of the proletariat") combined with bone-head 'experts' Fatty Vautin and Stirlo, who have a 1950s sense of humour, shown by the fact that they still think it is riotously funny to dress up in women's clothing and pretend to do the housework. Embaressing - give me Roy and HG doing the Origin any day! On to the ELVs, I think they are, overall, great and they certainly DO NOT turn it into League - As Spiro asserts the key word or phrase here is 'Contest for possession'. The ONLY things I have a problem with are 1) repeated infringements near the tryline should be full arm and/or sinbins 2) you should NOT be allowed to collapse the maul - why does no one talk about this when they criticise the ELVs? I think this is the only "anti-rugby" law variation suggested - it is negative play and I, for one, loved a good rolling maul, something teams like Argentina and NH could always do far better than us - it gave them a competitive edge and, as rugby fans, we should all be hoping that this competitiveness only increases as professionalism expands - it would be terrible if we ended up with a situation like that of Int cricket, although all the indicators point to this being unlikely... This self-mythology we Australians have manufactured around the fact that we don't cheat in sport (whilst every other nation does) is ridiculous, pathetic and probably a result of the unfortunate recent surge in nationalism in the last decade... Especially when it comes to rugby, most sides have "cleaned up their act" now, I don't believe we will see the eye-gouging, squirrel-grips etc of yesteryear again; obviously League, in comparison, still has a long way to go in the discipline department, both on and off the field. Oh, and to the "Pom" who reckons we want to change Union into League because "Union will die", obviously you haven't been reading the papers. IMO neither League nor Union will "die", I think League will still be the most popular sport in NSW unfortunately, but what can you expect when our population has had years of Murdoch-driven propaganda - the Tele's coverage of League rivals Pravda's coverage of the annual Communist Party conference in Leningrad, or Fox News coverage of American politics for their bias; for example, for some strange reason they only write about union when an ex/current leaguie is involved). So, thumbs down to the Telegraph! What a great rant this has been... Ok, firstly, I’m SO SICK of everyone talking about the W.C. all the time - it is like an obsession; 5 minutes after the last one has ended, we start using that horrible management-speak/weasel-word “rebuilding phase”, and lots more cliches spew forth. By talking about the WC so much we demean the tests it’s FOUR YEARS AWAY PEOPLE.

Also on the WC, if the Old Tie Club doesn’t give the AT LEAST on of the two next WCs to Japan or Argentina (preferably both), I’ll be furious; I’ll be more furious at the Old Tie Club (thats you, Mr Growden) media who don’t support the developing nations getting a WC, as the man in question is on record as supporting NZ getting the WC AGAIN in 2011, over Japan for some insane reason (some dubious comments about “size” and something vague about “never grow the game in Asia”, and something that sounded suspiciously like “can’t wait for Saturdays game with the other 5 men and a dog and my free sausage sizzle down at rat park”. Look, I like Sydney club rugby as much as the next person, but the mulleted (15 years too late) Maty Rogers really was correct about club rugby - almost refusing to play for Sthn districts! The future is NOT in having a kick and a run and some beers on a Sat arvo on the green expanses of Sydney Uni. Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s great that all our sports in Australia (and England) aren’t like in America where you HAVE to be top-notch to even have a run in a sport like gridiron (only 2 teams in each high-school, no full-contact amateur club competitions); BUT glorifying suburban rugby over including Buenos Aires and Tokyo in Super 14 is madness…Really, soccer is far more intelligently marketed than rugby.

Now, I am an Australian fan and it was dissapointing to lose, however we are improving and if Barnes was there we may well have won. On that note, I think the Tugboat, Rod Kafer, has a point in swapping Gits and Barnes - at least give it a go on the Spring Tour… I’ve been a fan of Waugh for ages but, yes, perhaps he is past his prime however he should still be on the tour. I’m afraid ol’ Chrome Dome (as someone hilariously dubbed Mortlock on a previous post!) will have to hang up the boots soon… End of an Era.

In regards to Kearns being biased, well maybe slightly, he’s allowed to be - we need 1 Buddha-esque commentator. Oh and PLEASE don’t say that Ch 7s commentary is good - it was GREAT when Poido (intelligent analysis) and Buddha (over-the-top comic passion) were there, before some idiot marketing ‘guru’ from the ARU or Ch 7 got on the blower and told them to ‘get some new faces’. Horan (great player) and Crowlley (average player) add nothing to the (stilll) very good Gordon Bray. Actually, isn’t it interesting to compare to dulcet tones of Union chief commentators Bray and Clarkie on Fox, and Mr North Shore-leather elbow patches himself, the former ABC rugby commentator Jim Maxwell, to the croaking, orgasmic shout of that interminable fool Ray “Rabs” Warren,,( he who considers League the “opera of the proletariat”) combined with bone-head ‘experts’ Fatty Vautin and Stirlo, who have a 1950s sense of humour, shown by the fact that they still think it is riotously funny to dress up in women’s clothing and pretend to do the housework. Embaressing - give me Roy and HG doing the Origin any day!

On to the ELVs, I think they are, overall, great and they certainly DO NOT turn it into League - As Spiro asserts the key word or phrase here is ‘Contest for possession’. The ONLY things I have a problem with are 1) repeated infringements near the tryline should be full arm and/or sinbins 2) you should NOT be allowed to collapse the maul - why does no one talk about this when they criticise the ELVs? I think this is the only “anti-rugby” law variation suggested - it is negative play and I, for one, loved a good rolling maul, something teams like Argentina and NH could always do far better than us - it gave them a competitive edge and, as rugby fans, we should all be hoping that this competitiveness only increases as professionalism expands - it would be terrible if we ended up with a situation like that of Int cricket, although all the indicators point to this being unlikely…

This self-mythology we Australians have manufactured around the fact that we don’t cheat in sport (whilst every other nation does) is ridiculous, pathetic and probably a result of the unfortunate recent surge in nationalism in the last decade… Especially when it comes to rugby, most sides have “cleaned up their act” now, I don’t believe we will see the eye-gouging, squirrel-grips etc of yesteryear again; obviously League, in comparison, still has a long way to go in the discipline department, both on and off the field.

Oh, and to the “Pom” who reckons we want to change Union into League because “Union will die”, obviously you haven’t been reading the papers. IMO neither League nor Union will “die”, I think League will still be the most popular sport in NSW unfortunately, but what can you expect when our population has had years of Murdoch-driven propaganda - the Tele’s coverage of League rivals Pravda’s coverage of the annual Communist Party conference in Leningrad, or Fox News coverage of American politics for their bias; for example, for some strange reason they only write about union when an ex/current leaguie is involved). So, thumbs down to the Telegraph!

What a great rant this has been…

]]> By: ohtani's jacket http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-73032 ohtani's jacket Mon, 15 Sep 2008 13:31:38 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-73032 GP is more physical, but it's much slower. That tends to be a problem whenever England play New Zealand. GP is more physical, but it’s much slower. That tends to be a problem whenever England play New Zealand.

]]> By: Colin N http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-73026 Colin N Mon, 15 Sep 2008 12:49:37 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-73026 Most SH players have all said that they have been surprised by how physical the GP is, arguably more so than the super 14. Perhaps that was the reason for them underpeforming. Can someone tell me why Mauger was so bad last season. As for a guy who was playing for New Zealand the previous summer in the WC, he was so out-classed by McAlister it was almost untrue. Although McAlister did have some poor games, that was mainly down to little niggling injuries. So far this season he, along with Hodgson have been Sale's two best players. I know it's only two weeks into the season but Hodgson and McAlister are starting to form at better understanding this season than last. Most SH players have all said that they have been surprised by how physical the GP is, arguably more so than the super 14. Perhaps that was the reason for them underpeforming. Can someone tell me why Mauger was so bad last season. As for a guy who was playing for New Zealand the previous summer in the WC, he was so out-classed by McAlister it was almost untrue.

Although McAlister did have some poor games, that was mainly down to little niggling injuries. So far this season he, along with Hodgson have been Sale’s two best players. I know it’s only two weeks into the season but Hodgson and McAlister are starting to form at better understanding this season than last.

]]> By: Benjamin http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-73005 Benjamin Mon, 15 Sep 2008 11:26:34 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-73005 Darryl, congratulations. England play exactly the same style of rugby as South Africa and they're boring?! What next - you'll tell me to eat my shorts? Spinner, I have asked you four or five perfectly valid qestions which you choose to ignore - trying to chip into debate with no meaningful ideas is a bit pathetic. Illinformed and loud. How utterly surprising. You have no willingness whatsoever to debate whenever a person critiques any aspects of the noise all you do is chip in with this hyperbole and white noise about NH rugby letting the game down. Poor. Ulyysses, I think it's quite evident that my response to Spiro was apt, and it's also quite clear that others agree with me. Just for clarification then - I didn't say it was a bad game. Happy? Incidentally I do recall Australia only beating Wales with a last minute Hoiles try in their recent two test series... I know my NH rugby and like England Wales have been very poorly coached, over the next two years Wales and England - potentially Ireland will steadily rise. I wouldn't suggest that you're being inflammatory Tah but the crop of players in England has the best potential ever. Look at how Wales perfomed under Gatland and then how the regions have fared. The same applies to England, they have just suffered from poor, poor coaching. The players you mention by and large have had little impact; Mauger, Crichton, Berne, Walker, Barry and Spencer have bordered on the very poor with their performances. Hougaard is hardly a quarterback and like Barritt and Jacobs is yet to actually play. Even McAlister has been hit and miss, as has Jack, Rawlinson, Hayman and Gear. The transition, it seems, is rather more difficult than a lot of players had imagined. Darryl, congratulations. England play exactly the same style of rugby as South Africa and they’re boring?! What next - you’ll tell me to eat my shorts?

Spinner, I have asked you four or five perfectly valid qestions which you choose to ignore - trying to chip into debate with no meaningful ideas is a bit pathetic. Illinformed and loud. How utterly surprising. You have no willingness whatsoever to debate whenever a person critiques any aspects of the noise all you do is chip in with this hyperbole and white noise about NH rugby letting the game down. Poor.

Ulyysses, I think it’s quite evident that my response to Spiro was apt, and it’s also quite clear that others agree with me. Just for clarification then - I didn’t say it was a bad game. Happy? Incidentally I do recall Australia only beating Wales with a last minute Hoiles try in their recent two test series… I know my NH rugby and like England Wales have been very poorly coached, over the next two years Wales and England - potentially Ireland will steadily rise.

I wouldn’t suggest that you’re being inflammatory Tah but the crop of players in England has the best potential ever. Look at how Wales perfomed under Gatland and then how the regions have fared. The same applies to England, they have just suffered from poor, poor coaching. The players you mention by and large have had little impact; Mauger, Crichton, Berne, Walker, Barry and Spencer have bordered on the very poor with their performances. Hougaard is hardly a quarterback and like Barritt and Jacobs is yet to actually play. Even McAlister has been hit and miss, as has Jack, Rawlinson, Hayman and Gear. The transition, it seems, is rather more difficult than a lot of players had imagined.

]]> By: jools-usa http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-73003 jools-usa Mon, 15 Sep 2008 11:22:17 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-73003 Spiro, I'd give Deans more than 55 % right now. What he has done with a "transition" team from oldies to rookies is notable. If nothing else he showed how weak W's had become versus N Z, and even SA. Wallaby pack were a joke (especially in beefcake-oriented NH). yet improvement is there. Despite probably the leanest bench in Tri N (that was obvious when injuries hit), he fielded credible teams that believed in themselves. Yeah, I know, what about the SA drubbing. But what about the 1st win in SA? Give him a 70 & look forward to 100. And lets thank him, and all W's who gave it their best. Jools-USA Spiro,
I’d give Deans more than 55 % right now.
What he has done with a “transition” team from oldies to rookies is notable.
If nothing else he showed how weak W’s had become versus N Z, and even SA.
Wallaby pack were a joke (especially in beefcake-oriented NH). yet improvement is there.
Despite probably the leanest bench in Tri N (that was obvious when injuries hit), he fielded credible teams
that believed in themselves. Yeah, I know, what about the SA drubbing. But what about the 1st win in SA?
Give him a 70 & look forward to 100. And lets thank him, and all W’s who gave it their best.
Jools-USA

]]> By: bob http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-73001 bob Mon, 15 Sep 2008 11:18:10 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-73001 Ohtani, I agree... I enjoyed watching it, and I was on the edge of my chair... but imo it wasn't greta rugby... because there was no build up of pressure... the lineouts didn't lead to maulk, sucking in defenders, opening space, the scrums fell down, and teh breakdown was a jumble and a mess. BUT the game entertained and didn't disapoint. However, as an advery for teh ELVs the first test, between bok and blacks in NZ, was better... I understand the love of the pace, and the speeded up game is impressive, but it seems to have lost too much, maybe more than it gained. The SH ALWAYS ran it, always had pace and flair and individual brilliance... the battle was between that and the NH mechanized style. But as we are told up here, in February next year, the tap and go option will be removed from rugby for a uniformed globalk trial, so how does that sit with SH rugby people who have clearly come to like that particular ELV... I have to say that so far up here, teh ELV's without that one, are pretty much no drama. Ohtani, I agree… I enjoyed watching it, and I was on the edge of my chair… but imo it wasn’t greta rugby… because there was no build up of pressure… the lineouts didn’t lead to maulk, sucking in defenders, opening space, the scrums fell down, and teh breakdown was a jumble and a mess. BUT the game entertained and didn’t disapoint. However, as an advery for teh ELVs the first test, between bok and blacks in NZ, was better…
I understand the love of the pace, and the speeded up game is impressive, but it seems to have lost too much, maybe more than it gained. The SH ALWAYS ran it, always had pace and flair and individual brilliance… the battle was between that and the NH mechanized style.
But as we are told up here, in February next year, the tap and go option will be removed from rugby for a uniformed globalk trial, so how does that sit with SH rugby people who have clearly come to like that particular ELV… I have to say that so far up here, teh ELV’s without that one, are pretty much no drama.

]]> By: ohtani's jacket http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-72990 ohtani's jacket Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:27:20 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-72990 I also thought it was like watching league. To me it was a better executed version of the Sydney Test, which I didn't really like either, but the way it played out was exciting. I had a f--king great time at the bar. People up North have a right to criticise the rugby. They won't find much agreement either side of the Tasman, since most Kiwis and Aussies I spoke to last night thought it was a great game, but nobody says you have to like it. I wouldn't tout it as a victory for the ELVs, but like the Super 14 final it was a good watch. I also thought it was like watching league. To me it was a better executed version of the Sydney Test, which I didn’t really like either, but the way it played out was exciting. I had a f–king great time at the bar.

People up North have a right to criticise the rugby. They won’t find much agreement either side of the Tasman, since most Kiwis and Aussies I spoke to last night thought it was a great game, but nobody says you have to like it. I wouldn’t tout it as a victory for the ELVs, but like the Super 14 final it was a good watch.

]]> By: Davo http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-72972 Davo Mon, 15 Sep 2008 08:10:07 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-72972 Its getting very tiring that any exciting game of SH rugby becomes the poster child for the ELVs but equally tiring that the same old suspects on this site after each major SH game will use words like "intense", "bash" and "athletic" as a form of feint praise but refuse or acknowledge that there was any semblance of tactics, skill or tension in the matches because of those dirty rotten ELVs. Its getting very tiring that any exciting game of SH rugby becomes the poster child for the ELVs but equally tiring that the same old suspects on this site after each major SH game will use words like “intense”, “bash” and “athletic” as a form of feint praise but refuse or acknowledge that there was any semblance of tactics, skill or tension in the matches because of those dirty rotten ELVs.

]]> By: Harry http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-72969 Harry Mon, 15 Sep 2008 08:02:44 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-72969 Dave, Be aware that Daryl is actually a South African, not an Australian. Could you explain to me why you are opposed to the ELV's? I truly think they improve the game and should be adopted - sure with some refinements, but by and large I think they have improved the game. Dave,
Be aware that Daryl is actually a South African, not an Australian.
Could you explain to me why you are opposed to the ELV’s? I truly think they improve the game and should be adopted - sure with some refinements, but by and large I think they have improved the game.

]]> By: stuff happens http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-72953 stuff happens Mon, 15 Sep 2008 07:32:24 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-72953 I'm disappointed that Spiro equated an excellent game of rugby with the ELV's. It's as if there were no exciting games of rugby prior to their disorganised introduction. I agree with Benjamin entirely on this issue.Also,his list of exciting matches is v. good and Wales -v- Fiji in RWC '07 was another. The real issue is that the AB's deserved to win this year's TN and I for one would have felt odd if Australia had won the tournament because we were hammered twice, once by the biggest score in our history . And you have to hand it to old sour puss;having lost how many players to Spiro's nemesis ( NH ) he and his cohorts have rebuilt the AB's superbly so credit where it's due. And Australia? my view has been for sometime that the first year after a RWC is usually a rebuilding programme for many countries.The questions are about direction,leadership, the right players in the lead up to 2011 and of course the coaches.Australia look no more than OK to me mainly because we have a lack of player resource which may be a struggle in the forwards. The AB's will have almost an embarassment of riches ( again) by RWC 2011 which they often don't handle well and the 'Boks could be awesome unless they are politically derailed. Finally, there was a wonderful pic in the Daily Telegraph in London a week or so ago of Martin Johnson in his new role in classic pose in the August rain at an England training camp.No prisoners there my friends - give him what ,eighteen months! I’m disappointed that Spiro equated an excellent game of rugby with the ELV’s. It’s as if there were no exciting games of rugby prior to their disorganised introduction. I agree with Benjamin entirely on this issue.Also,his list of exciting matches is v. good and Wales -v- Fiji in RWC ‘07 was another.
The real issue is that the AB’s deserved to win this year’s TN and I for one would have felt odd if Australia had won the tournament because we were hammered twice, once by the biggest score in our history . And you have to hand it to old sour puss;having lost how many players to Spiro’s nemesis ( NH ) he and his cohorts have rebuilt the AB’s superbly so credit where it’s due.
And Australia? my view has been for sometime that the first year after a RWC is usually a rebuilding programme for many countries.The questions are about direction,leadership, the right players in the lead up to 2011 and of course the coaches.Australia look no more than OK to me mainly because we have a lack of player resource which may be a struggle in the forwards. The AB’s will have almost an embarassment of riches ( again) by RWC 2011 which they often don’t handle well and the ‘Boks could be awesome unless they are politically derailed.
Finally, there was a wonderful pic in the Daily Telegraph in London a week or so ago of Martin Johnson in his new role in classic pose in the August rain at an England training camp.No prisoners there my friends - give him what ,eighteen months!

]]> By: Shaun http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-72948 Shaun Mon, 15 Sep 2008 07:19:10 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-72948 Not sure if one of the above posters covered it, but I'd have to say that the single most critical sub in the game was as Spiro said- Stephen Donald. Not that it necessarily gave Carter more space, but that it enabled the passes to escape the compressed Wallabie defence, and reach the outside backs of Kahui, Sivivatu and Muliania. That, and the breakdown was where I thought the game was won.. Not sure if one of the above posters covered it, but I’d have to say that the single most critical sub in the game was as Spiro said- Stephen Donald. Not that it necessarily gave Carter more space, but that it enabled the passes to escape the compressed Wallabie defence, and reach the outside backs of Kahui, Sivivatu and Muliania. That, and the breakdown was where I thought the game was won..

]]> By: Dave http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-72915 Dave Mon, 15 Sep 2008 06:06:00 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-72915 "Pull your pasty pom head out of your already jam packed backside Benjamin. You are boring, England is boring." This is exactly the kind of comment we have grown used to reading from bitter Ausssies who have been beaten by England in three of the past 4 RWC's. I love it On the subject of the ELV's, the game last weekend may have been fast and furious but the breakdown was a complete mess and made the game laughable viewing. As for the short arm penalties, it's aabout time the SH let these go as they will NEVER be implemented worldwide. Australia may ove rugby league but we in the NH don't want our game turned into a RL type TV-friendly sport With comments from John O'Neil and the psuhing of ALL the ELV's in one go (from Australia) it no wonder that the rugby world is ignoring Oz (and it lapdog NX) on the rule changes “Pull your pasty pom head out of your already jam packed backside Benjamin. You are boring, England is boring.”

This is exactly the kind of comment we have grown used to reading from bitter Ausssies who have been beaten by England in three of the past 4 RWC’s. I love it

On the subject of the ELV’s, the game last weekend may have been fast and furious but the breakdown was a complete mess and made the game laughable viewing. As for the short arm penalties, it’s aabout time the SH let these go as they will NEVER be implemented worldwide. Australia may ove rugby league but we in the NH don’t want our game turned into a RL type TV-friendly sport

With comments from John O’Neil and the psuhing of ALL the ELV’s in one go (from Australia) it no wonder that the rugby world is ignoring Oz (and it lapdog NX) on the rule changes

]]> By: taya http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-72845 taya Mon, 15 Sep 2008 02:30:43 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-72845 well it is good to see a rugby game fire up some many emotions !! well done !! however without being too technical as we all can be lets look at the game for what it was and what it delivered ! the fans loved it and why not ....? it was fast, tight, nail biting, skillful in parts and yep had some mistakes by the ref but what good game doesn't? i think perhaps we should stop canning the ref (poor buggers without them we would have no game ....and agree phil k is now a joke re his bias - the team on fox is appalling) everyone makes mistakes as the lone female comment for today i would like to say as a loyal fan of rugby, understanding the technical side etc following it as much as my male friends lets not be too harsh .. ...we have 2 more years to get things right and with robbie being able to do what he needs to we will be ok...i would rather 3 world cup than 7 years of the bled cup and tri nations - think of any other athlete competing in both world championships and the olympics - which title would you want ? of course we all want both but that is special - i would rather win at the olympics every four years than win all world champ titles - just ask the el garouge (not sure how to spell this one from morroco) the famous long distance athlete who finally won in athens... i do agree with someone who said with barnes back the tough call will be to drop stirling in favour of cross ! i think this must be done ...please lets not make the same mistakes we have done since 2003 !! when thinking strategy of where we need to be this time next year and year after it is with our future young guns in the squad and team - cross is a vg player - that try he scored was excellent (set up by matt g...and brown ) well done ryan .... i think lote should also be dropped in favour of our younger faster players - with lachie back our backs will have pace to burn - and we need that - we have the skills no doubt - AAC was on fire and i am glad to see - he is an outstanding 15 and we need him to feel confident to play with such speed and skill and what about richard brown? - a tough player with alot of JC about him we need him more than we think we do !! (so lets also nuture tahu and not destroy his confidence just like peter h from nsw some years ago ! looks all too familiar ...) so we all thought the game was great - my friends all loved it - and yes as someone said rugby in vic is wanting ! and when i said what a great win of rugby the comment was ' but the storm lost ' ummm.... and yep we all could have pulled the game apart and dissected it forever but lets keep it simple !! the kiss theory could serve many better if they just stick to what they do best .... ps henry did coach very well indeed a smart move to shift players around and harness the impact player !! do we have any of these ? well it is good to see a rugby game fire up some many emotions !! well done !!

however without being too technical as we all can be lets look at the game for what it was and what it delivered ! the fans loved it and why not ….? it was fast, tight, nail biting, skillful in parts and yep had some mistakes by the ref but what good game doesn’t?

i think perhaps we should stop canning the ref (poor buggers without them we would have no game ….and agree phil k is now a joke re his bias - the team on fox is appalling) everyone makes mistakes

as the lone female comment for today i would like to say as a loyal fan of rugby, understanding the technical side etc following it as much as my male friends lets not be too harsh .. …we have 2 more years to get things right and with robbie being able to do what he needs to we will be ok…i would rather 3 world cup than 7 years of the bled cup and tri nations - think of any other athlete competing in both world championships and the olympics - which title would you want ? of course we all want both but that is special - i would rather win at the olympics every four years than win all world champ titles - just ask the el garouge (not sure how to spell this one from morroco) the famous long distance athlete who finally won in athens…

i do agree with someone who said with barnes back the tough call will be to drop stirling in favour of cross ! i think this must be done …please lets not make the same mistakes we have done since 2003 !!

when thinking strategy of where we need to be this time next year and year after it is with our future young guns in the squad and team - cross is a vg player - that try he scored was excellent (set up by matt g…and brown ) well done ryan …. i think lote should also be dropped in favour of our younger faster players - with lachie back our backs will have pace to burn - and we need that - we have the skills no doubt - AAC was on fire and i am glad to see - he is an outstanding 15 and we need him to feel confident to play with such speed and skill and what about richard brown? - a tough player with alot of JC about him we need him more than we think we do !! (so lets also nuture tahu and not destroy his confidence just like peter h from nsw some years ago ! looks all too familiar …)

so we all thought the game was great - my friends all loved it - and yes as someone said rugby in vic is wanting ! and when i said what a great win of rugby the comment was ‘ but the storm lost ‘ ummm….

and yep we all could have pulled the game apart and dissected it forever but lets keep it simple !! the kiss theory could serve many better if they just stick to what they do best ….

ps henry did coach very well indeed a smart move to shift players around and harness the impact player !! do we have any of these ?

]]> By: Roger http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-72828 Roger Mon, 15 Sep 2008 01:18:59 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-72828 Colin N, I was not being critical, you are entitled to be defensive when Spiro sends out inflammatory articles. Colin N, I was not being critical, you are entitled to be defensive when Spiro sends out inflammatory articles.

]]> By: Roger http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-72827 Roger Mon, 15 Sep 2008 01:18:43 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-72827 Colin N, I was not being critical, you are entitled to be defensive when Spiro send out inflammatory articles. Colin N, I was not being critical, you are entitled to be defensive when Spiro send out inflammatory articles.

]]> By: Colin N http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-72817 Colin N Mon, 15 Sep 2008 01:03:26 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-72817 I thought that's what were in the minds of the ARU when they put their full backing behind the ELV's- they probaly thought that if they market the ELV's to the Austrlian public as a new form of 'open' rugby then they hoped this would get the Australians re-interested in union. Even though the England team have done poorly over the last 5 years, the club game has become more popular (even though the original boom was caused by the 2003 win). I believe that in England the game is more club based where as in the Southern Hemisphere it is more test based. I thought that’s what were in the minds of the ARU when they put their full backing behind the ELV’s- they probaly thought that if they market the ELV’s to the Austrlian public as a new form of ‘open’ rugby then they hoped this would get the Australians re-interested in union.

Even though the England team have done poorly over the last 5 years, the club game has become more popular (even though the original boom was caused by the 2003 win). I believe that in England the game is more club based where as in the Southern Hemisphere it is more test based.

]]> By: ulysses http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-72814 ulysses Mon, 15 Sep 2008 00:58:15 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-72814 Nigel - why exactly don't the ELV's work in an amateur game with one average ref? What about them makes it harder for an average part-time ref? I don't see that. My whole point is that the short-arm sanction reduces the impact a poor or average ref can have on a game by giving penalties for at times arbitrary offences. Nigel - why exactly don’t the ELV’s work in an amateur game with one average ref? What about them makes it harder for an average part-time ref? I don’t see that. My whole point is that the short-arm sanction reduces the impact a poor or average ref can have on a game by giving penalties for at times arbitrary offences.

]]> By: Nigel Lopez-McBean http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-72813 Nigel Lopez-McBean Mon, 15 Sep 2008 00:52:35 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-72813 I still can't get my head around how much contempt the ARU and cronies have for the amateur players. Most people who play rugby have a one average ref. ELV's just don't work in that scenario Actually...I'm wrong, there are practically no amateur players in Australia. Other unions, especially in Europe, which regardless of what anyone says is still the soul of the game, with the most players, biggest, oldest unions, best venues and finances give a damn about the guys that pay to play. They matter. I open a copy of the Herald Sun yesterday and 22 pages in on half a page there is the Tri-nations result. Rugby Union needs to become important again in Australia. The game is practically dead in Victoria. I ask three people today about the game on saturday and they say "Oh St Kilda did well" Forget the ELV's debate...saving the game in Australia should be the focus. As for comparing the annual Bledisloe with the RWC. Don't be silly. 4 years of pain is very different to 12 months. It's easy to take risks when you get another chance next year. I still can’t get my head around how much contempt the ARU and cronies have for the amateur players.
Most people who play rugby have a one average ref. ELV’s just don’t work in that scenario

Actually…I’m wrong, there are practically no amateur players in Australia. Other unions, especially in Europe, which regardless of what anyone says is still the soul of the game, with the most players, biggest, oldest unions, best venues and finances give a damn about the guys that pay to play. They matter.

I open a copy of the Herald Sun yesterday and 22 pages in on half a page there is the Tri-nations result. Rugby Union needs to become important again in Australia. The game is practically dead in Victoria.

I ask three people today about the game on saturday and they say “Oh St Kilda did well”

Forget the ELV’s debate…saving the game in Australia should be the focus.

As for comparing the annual Bledisloe with the RWC. Don’t be silly. 4 years of pain is very different to 12 months. It’s easy to take risks when you get another chance next year.

]]> By: ulysses http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/09/15/and-the-winners-are-the-all-blacks-and-the-elvs/#comment-72811 ulysses Mon, 15 Sep 2008 00:46:30 +0000 http://www.theroar.com.au/?p=10556#comment-72811 Bob - good point. For mine - the biggest single thing in the ELV's IS the short arm over long arm penalties. It is the thing that makes the game "different". the rest is tinkering at the edges - on balance for the good IMO but marginal. (sorry - with the exception of the 22 kick-out law, which has the second biggest impact and is also a very good thing IMO). The short arm is the right thing because it simply keeps the ball in play longer - and that is a very positive outcome for mine. It is also how you really build pressure in my view - the more the ball is in play, the better for the stronger, fitter and more skilled team. And the scrum option is still there keeping that crucial part of the game front and centre when it tactically suits. ELV's without short-arms - well, not sure they are worth the heat and passion they generate! The fundamental issue short-arm ELVs try to address is that a full-arm is too great a penalty for the offence - it is unbalanced. We all know that there are multiple offences at just about every breakdown. Always have been. But a long arm with its distance+possession sanction or 3-point goal kick sanction is too big a penalty for the multiple offences that can be called. It puts too much power in the (at times seemingly arbitrary) decisions of the ref to decide the game; too much benefit in playing a style that simply looks for position and plays for penalties, rather than plays positive rugby. That is why I am a supporter of the ELV short-arm. Now if we don't end up there; well that is a big disappointment; but the game will continue and will still be great. Just could be better! And I think the debate re the balance of sanction versus offence at the breakdown will continue - eg. I can forsee a move to greater codification of the use of yellow cards; ie automatic yellow card (maybe 5 mins rather than 10) after x number of breakdown offences, etc. Bob - good point. For mine - the biggest single thing in the ELV’s IS the short arm over long arm penalties. It is the thing that makes the game “different”. the rest is tinkering at the edges - on balance for the good IMO but marginal. (sorry - with the exception of the 22 kick-out law, which has the second biggest impact and is also a very good thing IMO).

The short arm is the right thing because it simply keeps the ball in play longer - and that is a very positive outcome for mine. It is also how you really build pressure in my view - the more the ball is in play, the better for the stronger, fitter and more skilled team. And the scrum option is still there keeping that crucial part of the game front and centre when it tactically suits.

ELV’s without short-arms - well, not sure they are worth the heat and passion they generate!

The fundamental issue short-arm ELVs try to address is that a full-arm is too great a penalty for the offence - it is unbalanced. We all know that there are multiple offences at just about every breakdown. Always have been. But a long arm with its distance+possession sanction or 3-point goal kick sanction is too big a penalty for the multiple offences that can be called. It puts too much power in the (at times seemingly arbitrary) decisions of the ref to decide the game; too much benefit in playing a style that simply looks for position and plays for penalties, rather than plays positive rugby.

That is why I am a supporter of the ELV short-arm. Now if we don’t end up there; well that is a big disappointment; but the game will continue and will still be great. Just could be better! And I think the debate re the balance of sanction versus offence at the breakdown will continue - eg. I can forsee a move to greater codification of the use of yellow cards; ie automatic yellow card (maybe 5 mins rather than 10) after x number of breakdown offences, etc.

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