By Andrew Logan
September 19th 2008 @ 6:05am
The Big Men from The South
The 2008 Tri-Nations continued a tradition dating back several decades – namely that of each country trying to field some huge men in the second row to power up the scrum and try to dominate the lineout.
Early on, we saw Boks stalwarts Victor Matfield and Bakkies Botha briefly continue their partnership for South Africa. Not only are Botha and Matfield an ideal combination skills-wise, they are also seriously big men. Matfield is 2.01 metres tall (6’7” plus in the old measure) and 110kg; and Botha slightly taller and heavier at 2.02m (6’8”) and 118kg.
The All Blacks put their trust in Ali Williams and Brad Thorn, with Anthony Boric getting a start during Thorn’s suspension. Williams is a similar height to the Boks pair at 2.02m and shades Matfield on the scales at 112kg. Former Brisbane Broncos and now All Black second row Brad Thorn is short by comparison, coming in at a mere 1.95m (6’5”) and 115kg. The newcomer Boric is right on 2.00m (6’6” plus) and laces up the gloves at an athletic 110 kilos.
Looking at figures like that, many feared the Wallabies chances, however they packed some pretty serious beef of their own at various times in Nathan Sharpe (2.00m/6’7” and 115kg) and newcomer James Horwill (2.00m/6’7” and 117kg), with South African-born Dan Vickerman (2.04/6’9” and 117kg) also in the picture.
To put all this height and weight in perspective, the total of any two second-row partnerships is about 450kg which is roughly the weight of a large yearling bull, or just under half a tonne. Laid end to end, any random scrumfull of these second-rowers would be roughly the same length as the world’s largest saltwater crocodile (measured at 8.6 metres, shot in Queensland in 1957) and some may argue, about as much fun to run into on a dark night.
So how do these guys rate alongside other sportsmen for sheer size? Grant Hackett, the Australian swimming champion is not far off in the height stakes, measuring up at 1.97m, which is roughly the same height as former Wallaby second-rower John Welborn and slightly taller than longtime Springbok lock Johann Ackermann.
Tennis champ and tall dude Goran Ivanisevic is approaching second-row height at 1.93m or 6’4”, but his whippy tennis figure of only 81kg is built for speed and endurance, not impact. He’s about one Olsen twin short of rugby weight.
In rugby league, there were few tall and broad enough to compare with Roosters and NSW forward Willie Mason. In rugby union however, Mason is nothing to write home about, coming in at a mere 1.95m (6’5”) and 114kg. Of course, just try telling him that next time he’s running onto a short pass 10 metres out from your line. All Black wannabe Sonny Bill Williams is the baby of this group at a tiny 1.91m (6’3”) and 108kg.
Rowing and rugby share some physical assets, and plenty of rugby second-rowers were also boat rowers in school days. Nathan Sharpe is a good example, rowing in the first VIII at The Southport School.
The leverage equation in rowing means that height is a distinct advantage, although you don’t want to be pulling too much weight around in those flimsy shells, so most rowers are too light to make it in rugby.
Endurance, on the other hand, would be no problem! Four-time Olympic oarsman James Tomkins is up there with Wallaby legend John Eales and Springbok Mark Andrews at 2.00m (6’7”) but would need to pack on some kilos, weighing in at a svelte 96kg.
The obvious place to look for big ‘uns is the American NBA. The great Michael “Air” Jordan would have made a fantastic lineout leaper with or without lifting, but would have been a tad light at 1.98m (6’6”) and only 98kg.
Aussie star Andrew Bogut is better suited at 2.13m (7’0”) and 118kg, but the king of them all is rugby-player-in-waiting Shaquille O’Neal. The Shaq is an utterly massive 2.16m (7’1”) and 147kg. To put this in perspective, he is 6 inches taller and 37 kilos heavier than Victor Matfield!
From the NFL, journeyman Aaron Gibson gets a mention because he holds the dubious record of being one of the first 400 pounders to play professional American football. At 1.98m (6’6”) he compares favourably with rugby second-rowers Rod McCall, Kobus Wiese and Gary Whetton, all of whom were the same height.
It appears that few of them could match Gibson at the breakfast table though – he weighed an incredible 170kg, which is almost exactly two Matt Giteaus.
Luckily for the lineout lifters, there aren’t too many Aaron Gibsons in rugby. But there are still some pretty big pairings.
For the Wallabies, the biggest pair from the last 20 years or so would be former Randwick, NSW and Brumbies lock Warwick Waugh (2.03m/6’8”plus, 122kg) wrapping his arm around league convert Garrick Morgan (2.00m/6’7”, 122kg). Together they outweigh most of today’s Tri-Nations combos by almost 15kg, although neither is quite as tall as Dan Vickerman.
The largest Springboks are probably Bakkies Botha lining up with the equally lofty Adolf Malan (2.04m/6’9”, 110kg), who played the first Test back from the wilderness against the Wallabies in Cape Town in 1992.
For the All Blacks, the giants are the “Big Rigger” Mark Cooksley at 2.05m (6’9” plus) and 125kg, alongside the great Chris Jack at 2.02m (6’8”) and 115kg.
Size is interesting trivia, but rugby people know that the old adage about “fight in the dog” is the ultimate key to winning rugby matches – the tougher the better – and modern players aren’t always the winners.
Former Wallaby Jules Guerassimoff remembers playing against Springbok forward Andy McDonald (1.90m/6’3”, 100kg plus) in the 1960’s and describes McDonald as an “unbelievable specimen of humanity”.
Not only was McDonald big for the time, he was hard too. Guerassimoff recalls hearing that McDonald was in hospital in 1966 following a lion attack. One of McDonald’s workers had been killed by the lion and so McDonald went hunting it on horseback and then, as he got closer, on foot.
Guerassimoff says: “There was a clump of bushes about 15 yards in front of him, and he thought there was no way a lion was ever going to get in there. He took a couple of steps, and this lion charged at him. All Andy had time to do was hold up the rifle into its jaw and fire before it snapped the rifle in half.”
“Andy apparently wrestled this thing for the next half hour, and it virtually had his head inside its mouth. Luckily he had wounded it with the first shot because he kept a hand on each jaw and after a while, it just quivered, rolled over and died.
“Now those were the sorts of guys we had to play against”.
Andrew Logan is proud to be associated with Kukri Rugby Gear and Cruiseco. You can join the Cruiseco party as Andrew and former Wallaby prop Richard Harry host a team of Test rugby greats from several countries on board the Rhapsody Of The Seas during Rugby World Cup 2011. You can also order the latest Kukri gear worn by some of the world's leading clubs and provincial teams. To have Andrew Logan appear at, or host, your rugby function, click here.
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ohtani's jacket said | September 19th 2008 @ 7:44am | Report comment
How did you miss Andries Bekker? He’s like 6′10″ and 120kg. One of the biggest locks since Richard Metcalfe.
The tallest NBA players in history were Manute Bol 7′7″ (2.31m) and Gheorghe Mureşan, who was a few millimeters taller than Bol. Muersan was 136kg, but Bol carried a 100kg. You need to see it to believe it. His wingspan was 8′6″ (2.59m).
Muresan’s Romanian, could’ve been a rugby player I suppose.
Japan’s Yasutaka Okayama was a 7′8″ center who entered the draft but never signed.
Current tallest player is Yao Ming — 7′6″ and 140kg.
Tallest basketball player in history is a Turkish player, Sultan Kösen, who’s 8′1″ (2.47) and tons of fun.
ohtani's jacket said | September 19th 2008 @ 7:49am | Report comment
BTW, what happened to the Roar Rugby Video Review?
Is this what happens when the Aussies lose the deciding game? Trivia about whether Andre the Giant or Wilt Chamberlain could play lock?
ohtani's jacket said | September 19th 2008 @ 7:53am | Report comment
Actually Andre the Giant did play rugby… Imagine if he’d been in Jerome Gallion’s side.
Alright, talking to myself now.
Benjamin said | September 19th 2008 @ 7:53am | Report comment
I’m sure Baxter wouldn’t mind packing down with ‘the Big Show’ up his arse.
Andrew Logan said | September 19th 2008 @ 8:02am | Report comment
OJ,
Allow me a disclaimer on this. I actually wrote this article for the Perth Test program way back when, but for one reason or another it didn’t get used so it just sat around till now, when I thought I’d chuck it up here for the fun of it. Hence the non-inclusion of Bekker, who at that stage hadn’t played for the Boks.
Re …”Is this what happens when the Aussies lose the deciding game? Trivia about whether Andre the Giant or Wilt Chamberlain could play lock?”. I guess I could have served you up another tired old breakdown of why the Aussies lost, how they could have won, who should have done what and when, and blah blah blah…..but you know what? I think we’ve all had enough….and really it’s a pretty simple answer. We’re not as good as the All Blacks. You’ve heard varying versions of that from Zavos, Growden, Payten, Kearns, Martin, Kafer etc etc…..you don’t REALLY need to hear it from me do you!!
The Roar Rugby Review is in hiatus until we decide where to go from here – the equation is effort to produce vs number of views…..and at the moment the effort is far in excess of the number of viewers. Thanks for watching though – I hope we’ll get it back in one form or another soon.
Cheers…
Roger said | September 19th 2008 @ 10:12am | Report comment
Good article Loges, takes one’s mind of the ELVs and Wallaby trials and tribulations for a moment. I remember standing next to Mark Andrew once and it seemed he was the biggest rugby player I had ever seen. Warwick Waugh was a huge lump as well. Maybe Garrick Morgan might be a contender as well.
David said | September 19th 2008 @ 10:45am | Report comment
this really isn’t in the thread but what happened to Tian Strauss? I remember walking past him at Bruce Stadium when his provincial team played the Brumbies in their inaugural game and he was huge! Can The Roar do a ‘where are they now’ section? Like Frano Botica playing rugby for Croatia!
LeftArmSpinner said | September 19th 2008 @ 10:55am | Report comment
Andrew, a great piece. I had expected that current players would be significantly bigger than there forebears. Other than an inch or two, it is all about the same. Interesting. It also causes me to think what is the difference between a player who is 198 v’s a player who is 201. Its all about the fight in the dog!!!!
The Cougar said | September 19th 2008 @ 11:00am | Report comment
I was in Kuala Lumpur during the Commonwealth Games in 1998. Had a coupla beers with Joeli Vidiri and a few other Kiwi 7s players. Joeli was a massive unit, especially given he moved so smoothly too. His hand wrapped around jugs of beer like they were thimbles.
True Tah said | September 19th 2008 @ 11:07am | Report comment
Andrew,
love the bit about playing against guys who wrestled lions – having played with a four month old cub and struggled at times with their strength and enthusiasm, you appreciate how strong they are, this bloke must have been one tough oke.
If I had the choice of running into a saltie or Nathan Sharpe on a dark knight, I’d take Sharpe any day though!
Jerry said | September 19th 2008 @ 11:09am | Report comment
Left Arm – I suspect when it comes to locks, there’s a level at which a player’s height would tend to actually count against them in terms of ability in areas other than lineouts. There will be few 6′11” or 7 foot types who’d be able to withstand international rugby, just as there’d be very few 150kg props who could do the same. Though locks have gotten significantly heavier and props have got taller.
In other positions, the increase in body size would be much more significant. While there are still some players who are regular sized (such as Hynes or Giteau) they are the exception these days and we often see 6 foot plus 100kg backs and many back rowers (eg Juan Smith, Burger or Elsom) probably would have been locks in days gone by.
Jerry said | September 19th 2008 @ 11:11am | Report comment
Cougar – I saw Vidiri once. What really shocked me was how big his bloody head was! It’s the size of a watermelon!
Benjamin said | September 19th 2008 @ 11:38am | Report comment
Incidentally Jerry, Smith was a 2nd row during his SA age group caps I believe.
I do agree with what you say and I think that the size ’spurt’ began in the mid to late 80s, there were certainly quite a few players from that era who would even be on the large side today… Tom Lawton, Steve Cutler, Ben Clarke etc. I think the difference now is that the backs are larger across the board, although I also think that a lot of conditioners are looking toward players slimming down, not just because of the ELVs but due to a general, incrimental rise in the pace of the game year on year and the role of first generation professional conditioning. Huge players like Bastiat are equally as rare now as they were in the 70s simply because there is no room for the man mountain like Craig Quinnell or that gigantically fat Fijian prop whose name eludes me.
The Cougar said | September 19th 2008 @ 11:46am | Report comment
I agree Jerry! Joeli’s head was about the size of one of those big Lazy Susan’s you get in Chinese restaurants. Nice bloke. Although when things started getting a bit loose, I took a few steps back. Noa Nadruku memories started to come to mind.
True Tah said | September 19th 2008 @ 11:51am | Report comment
Benjamin,
I think the guy you are referring to is either Bill Cavubati or Big Bill Veitayaki – aka the Fridge…the man who ensured KFC kept a presence in Fiji.
Jerry said | September 19th 2008 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
That’s Joe Veitayaki (rather than Bill) ex King Country, Chiefs & Fiji prop. Cavubati also played in NZ for Wellington & the Hurricanes (except for one very brief dalliance in Sydney when a barnstormign performance against NSW convinced someone to sign him up).
Those two propped together for Fiji a fair few times in the mid to late 90’s. That must surely have been the biggest front row ever – it’d be well over 300kg before the hooker had even stepped on the scales!
True Tah said | September 19th 2008 @ 12:12pm | Report comment
Jerry,
having those two guys on tour would have cost the Fiji Rugby Union a fortune in the food bill!
JohnB said | September 19th 2008 @ 12:29pm | Report comment
A bit rough describing Garrick Morgan as a “league convert” – a Wallaby (and potential all time great) before he went to league, came back late in his career. Still playing in France, at least up to a year or two ago, I seem to recall reading. A contender for worst-performed (compared to how he did in rugby) convert to league. Tony D’arcy springs to mind as another. Chris Roche a bit less so.
Jerry said | September 19th 2008 @ 12:32pm | Report comment
John Gallagher would have been one of the worst performed considering his pedigree in rugby. Eion Crossan would be the straight out worst.
The Pot said | September 19th 2008 @ 2:48pm | Report comment
Loges.
Friday arvo – marvelous read.
2 big dogs jacking up the row certainly makes a difference.
Genetics are still pretty hard to beat.
I can, and have, imagined Buddy Franklin wearing a 4 on his back as well….
ohtani's jacket said | September 19th 2008 @ 6:12pm | Report comment
That’s a shame about the Rugby Video Review.
It gave people like me a bit of a look into the Australian rugby community, something I’d otherwise be oblivious to. Hope the rest of the site is faring well.
brad said | September 19th 2008 @ 6:51pm | Report comment
Great article. It would be nice to compare forwards of the past to some the monster backs we have today. Stirling mortlock and Jaques Fourie are both over 100KG
formeropenside said | September 19th 2008 @ 7:18pm | Report comment
Garrick Morgan was captain-coaching the Gold Coast last season (2007): still was in shape on the wrong side of 36!
He retired after the GF loss to Sunnybank and is now solely coaching.
Earlster said | September 19th 2008 @ 7:34pm | Report comment
Hey Andrew, good article, may also be interesting to compare some of the AFL Tall Men. Not really sure of their stats, but I seem to remember the Madden brothers, quite a few years ago were pretty big men, with their jumping ability and general hard nosed nature I am fairly sure they would have made reasonable locks.
Just a thought!
Earlster said | September 19th 2008 @ 7:41pm | Report comment
Hey just as a quick google, there are two AFL big fellas – Aaron Sandilands (Fremantle) & Peter Street (Bulldogs) are the equal tallest players ever and are currently playing. They are both 211cm.
Not sure of their weights, but good tall timber for second rowers!
mudskipper said | September 20th 2008 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
Back to the rugby…Brumbies acquired have some big locks for next years Super Rugby:
Locks:
Chapman 1.97m 110kg
Chisholm 1.97m 115kg
Kimlin 1.98m 114kg
Hand 1.96m 114kg
Timani 2.02m 119kg
Front row:
Henderson Prop 1.86m 117kg
Alexander Prop 1.89m 120kg
Shepherdson Prop 1.87m 119kg
Ma’afu Prop 1.84m 126kg
Moore, Hooker 1.86m 112kg
Ulugia Prop/Hooker 1.80m 113g
Edmonds Hooker 1.83m 103kg
Flankers:
Mackay, Shawn 1.96m 102kg
Hoiles, Stephen 1.90m 102kg
Salvi, Julian 1.87m 100kg
Smith, George 1.80m 104kg
There has been a bit of a clear out at the Brumbies. They’ll have the biggest mobile forward pack any Australian Super Rugby team has had for sometime. (If ever) lets hope they also have the skills to do the task effectively…and give their backs some go forward next season.
Its great to know that ex Brumbies/Wallabies players Owen Finegan and Bill Young have returned to the Brumbies coaching the forwards and developing their set piece…
OldManEmu said | September 21st 2008 @ 8:22pm | Report comment
Ncework again Loges; particularly your precise call on why we lost to the ABs- nuff said.
You must speak to Geoff Mutton about his run in with Jules Geurassimoff in a Waratahs Reds gamein the sixties. The short version is that Mutton was playing so well that he was a bigchance of knocking Geurassimoff out ofthe Test team (back in those days the Reds Waratahs games were fair dinkim selection trials of course) until Mutton was knocked out in shall we say suspicious circumstances.
On the topic of second rowers – Brad Thorn. What an amazing footballer. To make the shift back and forth is impressive in itself,but for such a specialised position with all the set piece work involved, and technique at the breakdown etc makes the shift even more imressive. I dont think enough credit has been paid to Thorn and what he has achieved. He does risk being turfed out of the second rowers union however; I heard that he has not had a drop of alcohol for 8 years.
Andrew Logan said | September 22nd 2008 @ 8:17am | Report comment
OJ – we’ll definitely be doing something re the RRR, and have no fear – the site is going gangbusters. It’s just that the time to produce the RRR is equal to the time it takes to write about 5 columns, and it costs money to do, unlike a column, so the number of views need to be pretty high to make it worthwhile. We’re playing with it, and one way or another we’ll have something going for the Spring Tour.
Cheers…
Andrew Logan said | September 22nd 2008 @ 8:33am | Report comment
David,
Tiaan Strauss is now back in South Africa and is selling/exporting South African wines. I had a taste of one of his reds recently and it is comparable to a nice Hunter shiraz, but exporting red wine to Australia must be one of the tougher assignments going around.
Roger,
On Warwick Waugh, he played in the Bangkok Tens this year for an Aussie invitation side called the Beersheba Black Sheep. You can imagine what a stir he caused among the locals when we headed out in Bangkok! It was a little like Gulliver in Lilliput.
Re Bangkok Tens…..for any club contemplating touring, it is a great little undiscovered tournament. Several ex-internationals played the final (Beershaba Black Sheep vs The Jam Boys) – Waugh, David Fitter, Eddie Evans (Canada), Robbie Fleck and Bob Skinstad (SA), Willie L’ose (Tonga). A great contest, and an even better after party, despite the fact that we lost 10-0.
Benjamin said | September 22nd 2008 @ 8:59am | Report comment
Andrew, if you’re answering ‘where are they now’ questions is there any chance you could fill me in on where Fitter dissapeared to? He had a few games for London Irish and then…. gone, like Keith Murdoch but with none of the naughtiness.
David said | September 22nd 2008 @ 11:26am | Report comment
thanks Andrew for following that up – and great writing and analysis as well.
If you have time, I would be interested in your analysis of opening up Super 14 positions to foreign players – my dream is for the Brumbies to poach that amazing US Zimbawean-born winger who made Bryan Habana look like Matt Dunning.
Lindommer said | September 22nd 2008 @ 3:24pm | Report comment
David “Pot Plant” Fitter has joined the Melbourne University Rugby Club. Oh how the mighty have fallen!
Andrew Logan said | September 22nd 2008 @ 3:42pm | Report comment
Benjamin – I’m sure Lindommer’s comment is tongue-in-cheek. David Fitter is actually studying medicine in Melbourne and took that on as a conscious post-rugby decision. He has been doing some coaching there as I understand it, and was helping out with the Rebels set-piece on occasion during the ARC.
I think he was unlucky to not play more Tests, but his work around the park obviously counted against him during the Jones regime. I recall a club game, University vs Gordon, when Fitts came back from S14 duty and started on the bench in second grade due to lack of training with the club. Up to about minute 60 the Gordon pack had been gaining the ascendancy, but Fitter demolished them singlehandedly when he came on. There was one scrum near the sideline where the Gordon pack threw most of its weight to the tighthead side to try to take him on – but to no avail. It was a pretty impressive display – although obviously it is a long way from 2nds club footy to the Test arena.
Keni Kenipat said | September 22nd 2008 @ 4:54pm | Report comment
Loges,
Chin up mate, I’ve watch all the Reviews. If you want more people to watch it, you’ll probably just have to make it good.
I’d just like to say, there are some All Blacks nights where I do walk the streets in the hope of coming up against Sharpey.
Benjamin said | September 22nd 2008 @ 8:21pm | Report comment
David, I believe you mean Takudzwa Ngwenya. I’m not sure he is any good to be honest, but then playing in the Biarritz backline musn’t be the greatest of fun.
Andrew, thank you. I recall his arrival at Irish and I was always under the impression that he simply couldn’t cut the mustard at that level. Quite a few SH props have gone to Irish and then bit the dust. The player turnover under Smith must have been enormous. I do recall the debate about Fitter ’scrum v 80 min’ and his few Wallaby caps but he just seemed to peeter out. Maybe Deans should give him a call. The older the better and all that.
Andrew Logan said | September 22nd 2008 @ 8:48pm | Report comment
Benjamin – I think Robbie should leave Fitts where he is, and I think if you asked Fitts, he would probably say the same! I think he had pretty much had enough of top level rugby and is pretty focused on his degree.
Kenikenipat – You might be right about the Review, but not about Sharpey. He would eat you alive, you pillow.
All – on the “Where Are They Now?” requests, I have just posted a review of last weekends Silver Foxes vs Pokolbin Reds game in the Hunter Valley. If anyone wants to know where any of these players are and what they are up to, let me know, I’ll get back to you. It should be up tomorrow.
Cheers…