Comments on: Robbie Deans goes for young class

By: gavin

gavin — Sat, 27 Sep 2008 13:19:10 +0000

the Sydney Uni front row should be the test front row. Take the 3 of them for synergy.

Beale left out again. Bloody ridiculous. This Dwans is looking worse week after week

Who needs another Horan ?

By: Ben C

Ben C — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 03:44:18 +0000

Danny

We know how good rugby is and don’t feel a need to talk it up. Rugby is a mature sport without the inferiority complex that exists down south.

(Remove tongue from cheek)

By: Nick (KIA)

Nick (KIA) — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 22:42:00 +0000

Danny,

I can’t get excited about AFL. Probably result of NZ upbringing, but they always seem to be knocking the ball on. And the crowd cheers everytime someone catches the ball???

Not sure what I’m missing. What do you mean “wax lyrical”? There appears to be plenty of rugby union wax on the Roar…

By: Danny

Danny — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 13:52:20 +0000

This is somewhat off topic but it is very unfortunate that here in Australia us rugby fans don’t seem to be able to “wax lyrical” like Aussie Rules fans and writers like Martin Flanagan (I was just listening to an interesting ABC Radio Nat program with him on it.
Everyone chips in about the drama of Aussie Rules, from left-wing academics, to right-wing politicians, to lawyers and the local butcher.
Why doesn’t this happen in Union?

By: bailey4

bailey4 — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 23:31:04 +0000

Obviously Deans has seen something in Kepu that noone else sees, probably the same thing he saw in Horwill, Hynes, Burgess and all those other new cats that were ignored by previous Wallaby coaches…i think we should just wait and see what Robbie has instore for Kepu.

By: Undercover Prop

Undercover Prop — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 22:25:20 +0000

For anyone that didn’t see the Sydney Club Rugby GF on Saturday, Sekope Kepu repeatedly has his head shoved back up his arse by the University pack. His reward, is to be picked for a Wallabies tour??? I’m not saying that the Uni props should be picked as neither have Super 14 experience but surely someone should have to prove themselves competent at a club level before they are picked for the Wallabies.

I think Kepu is still living off the “hype” that came with him when he was signed at the start of the year, simply because he was a 120kg plus prop from NZ. I thought like other people did that we could have a future Wallaby prop that could stand up to the All Black and England scrums, but so far he’s turned out to be pretty useless in my opinion. Nobody in Sydney club rugby circles is talking about how dominanat Sekope Kepu is each week or how good the Randwick scrum is.

I only hope that Deans is aware of all this but sees a little spark in him that he thinks he can develop into something much bigger and brighter. I’ll leave him with you Robbie.

By: Benjamin

Benjamin — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 21:57:50 +0000

I would think all games will test Australia in different ways. Italy have the best pack in Europe so Deans might not choose to throw the new pack recruits into the fray there. Recall the recent Italy - Australia test. I would imagine Deans might choose any new pack debutants for the Wales game, bearing in mind that Wales have a much lighter pack. Depending on Welsh injuries I suspect that that might be the hardest test of the series. Gatland has been in the job for nearly a whole year now whereas Johnson, and therefore England, are very much an unknown quantity.

By: Jason Cave

Jason Cave — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 21:54:32 +0000

The 2008 European Tour will give an indication of where the Wallabies are at, not just their standing in international rugby at the moment, but also the 2011 RWC in New Zealand. The England-Australia Test at Twickenham will tell us a lot about this Wallaby team.

By: bailey4

bailey4 — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 21:50:11 +0000

The good thing about Deans is that he takes every game seriously, minus that little j’burg game, either way I don’t think he would be taking England lightly at all. I think more than anything the Wallabies have been waiting for their chance to come up against England since last years disaster, and I don’t think Deans is stupid enough to ignore that!! I do see him probably playing the new recruits against Italy though.

By: Benjamin

Benjamin — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:53:12 +0000

If you seriously think that Deans can afford to turn up to Twickenham with a team of dirt trackers then good luck to you.

By: Benjamin

Benjamin — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:51:11 +0000

It’s not as if the NH teams are going to be that tough.

Glad to see you keep up to date with world rugby then. Given the Australian away record it seems that the ability of other teams is irrelevant. Just look at the WC. An appalling England side smashed Australia physically. The lack of English ability was far outweighed by their desire and mental strength, something that the Wallabies have proved time and time again to be lacking. Chris Latham made a similarly ill-informed comment along the lines of how Australia had beaten Wales all too easily before and therefore would do so again, clearly neglecting their recent improvements.

It is also completely moot to suggest that a pack of untried players would be able to do a better job than a pack that has included McMeniman, Vickermann and Elsom. Connolly tried new players and Sheperdson got as much of a beating as Dunning and Baxter so what good would Kepu, a player who can’t even usurp the aforementioned two, do against Sheridan, Lo Cicero, Perugini and Woodcock? The same applies to Alexander who can’t even shift Henderson. The only saving grace of the Australian pack is that the NH global ELVs include fewer scrums. Realistically Australia will be doing very well to beat France, Italy and the Barbarians.

By: LeftArmSpinner

LeftArmSpinner — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:49:14 +0000

It has just dawned on me that with 6 games in six weeks, we may well see all of these guys get at least half a game somewhere along the tour.

Surely, dingo will rest the spine, Moore, Brown/Palu, Burgess, Giteau and AAC together with Smith and Horwill, Smith and a few of the other forwards so that they are fresh for the toughest games, NZ, France and Wales.

That leaves Italy, England and Barbarians for the dirt trackers. Now we are talking!!

By: LeftArmSpinner

LeftArmSpinner — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:32:46 +0000

Davo, Nasaganiyavi is useless. Sure, he’s big, very big, and hard to tackle. But he is not that fast and has no ticker. Watch a replay of the Sydney grade GF from last saturday. A really big game and he just didnt show up. dont waste the ink or the effort in turning that Oil tanker around.

cutter, seems that most are in agreement with you. Sad that such a great opportunity to get rid of the softies and test more young guys has been lost. Geez, it is not as if the NH teams are going to be that tough, even at home and they have been sending development teams down south for the past few years.

I suspect that a pack with Kepu/Baxter/ Alexander and Moore, with Horwill and Hocking and with Smith/Pocock, Brown and McMeniman in the backrow (Bench: Charles, Kimlin/Chisholm) would get enough ball for a back line with the likes of Burgess, Beale/Giteau, Barnes/Tahu, AAC/Cross and Hynes/AAC/Mitchell and Turner with SNK and Sheehan completing the bench) would convert possession into points.

Geez, what a mouthwatering prospect. What a shame it wont happen, well at least not this trip!!!

By: Cutter

Cutter — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 10:38:58 +0000

Mudskipper said:

“I count 18 new 2008 Wallabies on their first Northern Hemisphere tour, Cross, Tahu, Hynes, Alexander, Kepu, TPN, Turner, Burgess, Brown, McMeniman, Pocock, O’Connor, Cooper, Sheehan, Ioane, Mumm, Horwill, Hynes”

Sorry to be a pedant, but you counted Hynes twice and TPN, MMM and Sheehan have all toured before. So, 14 new tourists which is still a biggish number.

Baxter and, reluctantly, Dunning should tour. The real surprise is that Waugh and Cordingley are going. Pocock is good enough to start a test if Smith was injured and Waugh couldnt be flown over in time. If he’s not, why are they taking him? Cordingley should voluntarily give up his seat for Lucas.

I wouldnt have taken Palu, Tahu or Tuqiri but can understand the reasoning. I would also have taken Kimlin over Chisolm. That is an odd choice.

By: bailey4

bailey4 — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 09:59:41 +0000

Kefu was born in Sydney, Australia so he’s very much eligible to play for Australia!!

By: Jerry

Jerry — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 06:42:15 +0000

There’s obviously a fair few AB’s over the years who’ve been born in the islands, but as TT stated - the vast majority of them are raised in NZ or at least learned their rugby in NZ. Vidiri was pretty close to a poach really, like Kepu he was recruited to play in NZ as an adult but didn’t have any birth link as Kepu does. There’s a few others who came to NZ fairly late - Saimone Taumopeau, Isaia Toeava or Sitiveni Sivivatu are fairly recent examples though both did attend at least part of their high school career in NZ.

By: True Tah

True Tah — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 06:16:33 +0000

cosmos,

most Islander blokes in the ABs generally are created by the NZ Rugby system, therefore the whole poaching claims are redundant.

I know Joeli Virli sort of what the exception to this, but the majority were created by NZ Rugby.

By: Davo

Davo — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 06:02:20 +0000

Mtawaira, Mujati and Pocock is the nucleus of a pretty good Zimbabwean forward pack. Pity their country is in worse shape than Sonny Bill’s medicare card.

I dont think picking or not picking OS based players is all that relevant at present.Although could become so in the future. But right now, I cant think of any front rowers playing overseas. Or other forwards for that matter except the two recent departees Elsom and Vicks.

Re: Depth. There is plenty I reckon….here is just an obvious run down of players 34-56 from either 2008 Super 14, Aust A program or Aust U20. There are others from Syd/Bris grade who aren’t too far behind. They may not smash the England scrum backwards or carve up the All Blacks but there is still plenty of talent there.

Norton Knight,Shepherd,Horne,T.Smith,Rathbone,Halangahu,Holmes,Hoiles,Robinson,Fava,Kimlin,Hockings,Shepherdson, Faingaa, Yayayatana
Reserves:Nasaganiyavi,Beale,Lucas,Caldwell,G.Holmes,Houston,N.Henderson,Huia Edmonds

By: cosmos forever

cosmos forever — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 05:58:27 +0000

What’s the history of AB’s coming from islands like Samoa, Tonga, fiji rather than being NZ born and bred, just out of interest?

By: Jerry

Jerry — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 04:53:04 +0000

Greg/True Tah - As Cooper & Pocock both arrived in Aus while in high school and O’Connor is Australian born and raised, 3 out of the 4 have had a fair amount of time in the Australian development system. Basically, other than Kepu I’d say they’re all products of Australian rugby, more or less.

By: mudskipper

mudskipper — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 04:47:15 +0000

Bring Back Melon…yes I missed George Smith is definitely a ball runner

By: True Tah

True Tah — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 04:40:11 +0000

Greg,

I see the phrase “potential All Black” being thrown around a fair bit here, I don’t think its really relevant to label any of the three young men as such, they have thrown their lot in with Australia, good on them too, maybe Kepu will really rise to the occassion, he is an athletic young man who showed some promise for the Tahs…I will be following his European tour closely.

Re: Pocock, a fair amount of his schooling was at Churchie in Brisbane, yes he was born in Zimbabwe, but he was developed in Australia. The Bokke had two Zimbos propping for them this year, no one was saying that they were suffering from a lack of props.

By: Greg Russell

Greg Russell — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 04:32:13 +0000

Jerry,

I completely agree that it’s fair play to Kepu (and the others) for choosing to play for Australia, and without question Deans has done the right thing by choosing them.

With my comment I was merely raising the issue of Australian rugby’s reliance on pseudo-imported players like this - it suggests that Australian rugby is losing the ability to produce top players (completely) from within. If one watches the NRL, AFL, Olympics or whatever, one sees quickly that the talent is there. But evidently not much of it is being channelled into rugby.

By: Jerry

Jerry — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 04:24:43 +0000

It’s hard to say if Kepu would have been an AB - he wouldn’t have threatened to unseat Woodcock, Sommerville or Hayman obviously and on current form he doesn’t look as good as Afoa or Tialata either. Still, there’s been a few left field selections at prop over the last couple of years (Schalger and Campbell Johnston for instance) so it’s hard to really say he wouldn’t have been selected.

Greg - Kepu went to Wesley College in South Auckland, so he was in NZ for at least part of his secondary school life - I read somewhere he moved to NZ aged 3, but don’t know how accurate that is. Still, he’s put his lot in with Australian rugby so fair play - you can’t begrudge him for doing so or Deans for selecting him.

By: Greg Russell

Greg Russell — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 04:14:27 +0000

True Tah,

I think we all know the answer to your question. Relevance to my comment?

By: True Tah

True Tah — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 03:53:37 +0000

Greg,

would Sekope Kepu be likely to feature in the All Blacks if he was still with the Chiefs?

By: Greg Russell

Greg Russell — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 03:33:05 +0000

On RadioSport in New Zealand there was a report yesterday that 3 of the 4 new Wallabies are eligible for New Zealand. Indeed: Quade Cooper was born and raised in the Bay of Plenty, James O’Connor appears to be Australian raised but he has New Zealand born parents (and is also eligible for the Springboks courtesy of a South African grandmother), while it is only a few years since Sekope Kepu played for NZ U21 (although I do not know how much of his life was lived in NZ prior to that).

To this should be added that the Pocock family is from Zimbabwe, from memory moving to Australia when David was 15.

So we have that all 4 of the new Wallabies are essentially products of non-Australian cultures. Don’t get me wrong, it’s great that these people have found a welcoming home in Australian rugby. But what is happening to the ability of Australian cultures to produce Wallabies? One must wonder whether kids raised in Australia are now being lost to rugby as a result of the well planned and well financed recruitment schemes of the AFL and NRL.

By: LeftArmSpinner

LeftArmSpinner — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 03:17:06 +0000

Spiro, I was surprised that there was no mention of Beale in your article. He qualifies on all fronts, age, skill, trackrecord and “ticker.”

I can only agree with Davo about Horne. Has the Tahs strength and conditioning team stuffed the two best prospects, Horne and Beale?

While Freier has my admiration and played very well in the GF, Nathan Charles is the future.

Sheek, the depth thing is an invention and excuse of underperforming coaches. In addition to Uni, just look at Easts: Egan, De Bartolo, Toomua; Randwick: Kroll; Gordon, West Harbour: Martin, Parini; Warringah: Eadie, McCabe and the young 5/8 and, of course, Uni’s 2nd grade team. There are plenty of goodun’s. Some can rise to the next level and some can’t.

It is about selection/recruitment and is no less a competitive advantage in rugby than it is in business. E.g. Everyone who knew Burgess, his sire and mare, saw him do trackwork (Grade rugby) or deal with adversity, would tell you that he would succeed.

Justin, there will always be an excuse. History now suggests that the harder the games leading into the RWC finals, the better.

Hoy, whoa there, boy. Strangely quiet??? He led Tah’s to the S14 final and was, with Burgess, the electricity that made the mid season change of strategy such a success. In 2007, his first year in S14, he didn’t have a backs coach. At the start of that season, he wasn’t old enough to get a drivers license. In 2008, the coach went missing after about 5 games.

In Beale’s tackling stats were better than any other S14 5/8, excepting D Carter. Hoy, it is not about blame. It is about results. Link, I agree fully with you.

Whaler, there is no good time to blood props, but some props and players generally, don’t need to be blooded in the true sense. They just have another gear.

So Stuff, which overseas forwards would you select in the Wallabies?

Mudskipper, as regards ball runners, Freier is good with ball in hand but, as you say, not a runner. Maybe it’s a generational thing!!

By: Bring Back Melon

Bring Back Melon — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 02:52:43 +0000

Mudskipper,

Don’t forget George Smith. You’d have to call him a “ball runner”, wouldn’t you?
(Also not a bad at some other aspects of the game).

By: Sam Taulelei

Sam Taulelei — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 01:50:23 +0000

Sorry that line should read “Whether the NH clubs would be happy and agree to see their international players unavailable in August, September, October and November remains to be seen”