A recent history of Australian rugby would have a rather thin entry under the heading of world class props. Clearly great props don’t just happen.
The question I’d like to see discussed is how we move toward the creation of a ‘system’ and a ‘culture’ that encourages and supports the development of a sizable cadre of routinely highly capable and some world-class props.
The idea of a ‘prop’ school doesn’t appear to have got much traction.
Even if it does, it doesn’t constitute a system, nor does it necessarily lead to a culture that values the so called ‘dark arts.’
Furthermore, it isn’t clear to me how to implement a ‘prop’ school.
Would it be targeted at those athletes (would-be props) who’d already reached the elite levels in their respective competitions?
A look at the recent performances of ‘The Beast’, an ex-back-rower who can prop, run, step and who knows what else, should provide some evidence that great props don’t necessarily start out as props.
Sheridan is another example who started out as a back-rower (but I’d rather have the Beast).
On the chance that someone who can make it happen reads this post, what might be done?
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October 1st 2008 @ 9:11am
Peter K said | October 1st 2008 @ 9:11am | Report comment
ozxile – You get what you pay for. Props have always been the least paid rugby players in Australia. In other countries they are paid significantly more. Instead we lash out our money on backs and backrowers.
So if you were a backrower you would be aiming at a pay cut to convert to prop.
I am a firm believer you really lean propping on the field against good props rather than in an academy.
I would pay top props more, and I would send upcoming props like Alexander (the type who can run tackle offload etc) to France or England 3rd or 4th division to learn how to prop.
October 1st 2008 @ 9:35am
fridgey said | October 1st 2008 @ 9:35am | Report comment
As an ex-prop who gained thier position through default rather than choice (fat but fit) the only way you gained knowledge was by being “educated” by the grisly, cauliflower eared, beer guzzling monsters that you propped against or played with…
I believe that getting a travelling group of ex rep props to visit schools and clubs educating the tight-five on technique and training regimes is an excellent start. On school holidays a lot of sports have trainng camps, why not a props camp or rather a rugby camp, with particular focus on the relevant skillsets each position requires…I remember rugby league camps when i was a lad where always an excellent learning experience, lets bring this to union…
October 1st 2008 @ 9:41am
LeftArmSpinner said | October 1st 2008 @ 9:41am | Report comment
Geez, how precious are we becoming. Rugby has always been a game for all body sizes. Now is becoming a game for all sizes of heart. Poor old props, not paid enough, not coached enough and then bashed up by those older props. Geez, life is tough.
Anyway, as they say, it is better to play the piano than push it.
just in case you hadnt worked it out yet, I played fullback!! We were smart enough to learn the game as we went!!!
Ah,that was good!!! Sorry to degrade your discussion but I just couldnt help myself…….
October 1st 2008 @ 9:44am
fridgey said | October 1st 2008 @ 9:44am | Report comment
I agree with your reference to a props sabattical to the english or french unions to perfect thier craft, agreed you learn a lot from your opposition as well…As we have no competition depth here in aus, re ARC like competition, then send ‘em north. Actually, i remember another forum regarding an Aussie team in the NZ cup, that would benefit our props as well…
And leftarmspinner, i would like to say something better but the mods may take offence, so here goes, bugger off…Damn moderators….Prettyboys….
October 1st 2008 @ 9:57am
ozxile said | October 1st 2008 @ 9:57am | Report comment
Gents, I really appreciate the rapid responses. That said, the point here is to try to toss around enough ideas to come up with a legitimate approach that can actually be implemented. Just throwing money at things rarely works. The idea of a traveling road show of props may be part of the plan. As an old hooker my recollection is that props got worn out rather easily (fair enough – a cheap shot). Sending them off to apprentice/get more exposure is also a legitimate idea. I’d hope there are more and that something like a viable approach will emerge.
I became a hooker in school because I looked at the stock of breakaways and realize I’d never make 1st XV unless I found another spot – never looked at prop though – far, far, far too weedy.
October 1st 2008 @ 4:04pm
mudskipper said | October 1st 2008 @ 4:04pm | Report comment
What age do you think a world class prop should be peaking? My thoughts are usually between 26 – 31 years. It’s an unusual position where props tend to peak at the end of their careers unlike back who can peak 22 – 30. The Today’s prop has new list of duties and is expected to be involved in more ball and running plays. Tony Woodcock is an excellent example of this new prop forward. He is getting better and is about 27 and will be good for the 2011 RWC.
October 1st 2008 @ 4:23pm
Geoff said | October 1st 2008 @ 4:23pm | Report comment
Why don’t the Aussies just follow their traditional path and poach another Argentine prop?
October 1st 2008 @ 7:02pm
Matt said | October 1st 2008 @ 7:02pm | Report comment
We’ve won 2 world cups, only SA have done this not NZ not England and we did this without an Argentinian prop. The issue I think has evolved from our schools system who put little emphasis on scrum and more on ball playing props.
October 1st 2008 @ 9:54pm
Benjamin said | October 1st 2008 @ 9:54pm | Report comment
Peter, the National League One is a superior scrummaging machine than the Guinness Premiership. Subsequently the GP has developed a loaning system where N1 clubs get good young GP players. Excellent apprenticeship for the props. The Top 14 is a far more inconsistent league in terms of scrummaging so it would probably be better for Australian props to play in the N1 than anywhere else. I have always liked the idea of an English-Australian swap school. Young forwards (from Australia) come to England, young backs (from England) go to Australia. Other than that there is always the possibility of the ‘Prop Idol’ as developed by the London Harlequins (ex-Broncos), however again the main issue is who actually wants to be a prop? Epi Taione said that in Tonga all young kids wanted to be a ‘tough guy’ prop and yet Tonga couldn’t scrummage their way out of a paper bag and the Tongan props all play in the GP. Therefore it must be recognised that scrummaging is an 8 man game. The Australian props can’t be bogeymen forever. To that extent unless there is a cultural shift, or an acceptance of the way the game can be played i.e variety in the forwards, then the only improvements in forward play will be in the Wallaby squad and not from grass-roots upwards.
Ultimately, IMO, I link scrummaging ability to a cultural ethos. Springboks – macho, hostile and yet lacking in finesse, thus their scrums have been one-dimensional for years- power, power, power. Scotland used to employ the quick rucking game in order to avoid heavy traffic, thus their front rowers were small and comparatively nimble. Argentina have the bajada and so the scrum is bought into by all 8 forwards. What culture does Australia have? Even alleged ‘hard men’ like Finnane was a useless scrummager, thus I think that Australian props, and forwards in general, need a real cultural shift, hence a season or two in England. Props need to want to scrummage. I don’t see that with Australia. If you are of a certain size then why not become a league prop? I suspect that a lot of union props in Australia are there by default due to their body size, therefore there has been no real propping desire from a young age. Young props in England want to be Sheridan or Leonard, props in SA want to be du Randt or now ‘Beast’, what Australian youth would want to be Robinson over a league prop (can’t think of any names)?
October 2nd 2008 @ 1:42am
Benjamin said | October 2nd 2008 @ 1:42am | Report comment
Matt. Australia won two world cups in spite of their forwards/props, not because of.