Comments on: A dose of humility wouldn’t hurt Arnold’s cause

By: The Bear

The Bear — Sun, 12 Oct 2008 22:14:12 +0000

Why at Robina, tho?

By: Koala Bear

Koala Bear — Sun, 12 Oct 2008 09:54:43 +0000

Bear,
Wee bit off topic, the Socceroos trained on the Gold Coast and 2000 spectators turn up to watch them train at Robina Stadium .. All looks well for the Gold Coast United Franchise..

~~~~~~~
KB

By: The Bear

The Bear — Sun, 12 Oct 2008 09:43:09 +0000

Ahhh, humility. Well Baan has spoken, and Australia isn’t good enough. For any “neros” still out there, that still are happy with Arnold’s “immunity”, then keep playing your violins, while Rome burns.

Graciously,
The Bear

By: Slippery Jim

Slippery Jim — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 02:15:15 +0000

nomad3, I am also curious. If post-olympics I imagine it would have gone somewhat along the lines of the Joe Kinnear interview, except GA would have refused permission to print it. I recomment Jesse attempt a Michael Moore V Charlton Heston style interview attempt forthwith. What do you say Jesse? You could leave a photo of Bruce Djite with a tear in his eye on his porch

By: jimbo

jimbo — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 01:35:40 +0000

Cpaaa
I live in a glass house and it doesn’t stop me throwing . . . he’s such an easy target from up here.

By: nomad3

nomad3 — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 00:41:09 +0000

Jesse, did you do your last interview with GA pre or post Olympics ? if it was post… what did he have to say ?

By: Slippery Jim

Slippery Jim — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 00:03:52 +0000

Cpaaa, that’s charming.

By: Cpaaa

Cpaaa — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 22:18:08 +0000

arnold has been stoned to death, and yet he remains alive. so what do we do…..?
you guys move on, i’ll keep throwing till it stops moving.

By: Slippery Jim

Slippery Jim — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 22:15:41 +0000

dasilva, granted, Les is certainly a fan of the Socceroos, which explains his double standards (as I have pointed out on his blog) in praising effective ‘results first’ football from the Socceroos but calling it anti-football when clubs do the same thing. So, in resect to international football, yes he certainly does understand the fans perspective.
By the way, it was interesting on TWG yesterday to see Pim mention Arnold suggested many of the young players such as Shannon Cole for the Socceroos squad. Looks like Pim does value his input after all.

By: dasilva

dasilva — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 13:03:53 +0000

I don’t believe Les Murray don’t understand the joy of grinding result against more technically superior team.

Australia been doing that for during a long time and SBS has always supported them. Let’s look at Frank Arok. He was famous for the mad dog soccerroos era where he pick player who are mentally and physically strong and sometimes over people who are skillful. He then instruct them to get in the faces of the opposition irrespective of the stature of the opponent (although Arok’s soccerroos didn’t play long ball football though). Then there is the infamous match against Israel. He then went over to Israel and start talking about his team in a really macho way. Have a public training session facade where he instruct the players to be as violent, thuggish and physical as possible to the shock of the Israeli public (and to the humour of the Australian journalist) there. This caused the Israeli to try and out physical Australia instead of playing their usual technical style of play as Australia was questioning their musculinity and Australia won the two legs. Les Murray hailed him a tactical genious and the top 5 Soccerroos caoch of all time due to that despite the fact he virtually single handedly responsible for giving Australia the international reputation of an overly physical and thuggish football nation. I think Les Murray understand the joy of winning ugly.

The difference now is that back then Australia as a football nation was at an infancy and results really meant everything. To SBS Australia has to move on to play a more sophisticated style of football as Australia will never progress as a football nation. They also believe that Australia at its current state are capable of playing at this high level and not resort to overly physical style of play. So that’s why SBS are campaigning and driving a “agenda” about possession football and playing beautiful football. That’s why they are pointing at european clubs and other countries as role models in where AUstralia should aim at. That’s why they are on a crusade praising everytime a team plays good football and criticise team playing defensively and playing direct and long ball footbal as they want teams like Arsenal, Barcelona to be role models in where Australia is aiming to be. It’s because they don’t want Australia to copy physical and direct teams as we have done in the past. So yes SBS do understand the joy of winning ugly because they probably experience that themselves by following the Soccerroos for a long time. However they respect even more the teams that entertains not just the fans but the neutrals because they make people to actually like the game and inspire people to play the game (which is an issue in a country like Australia) and they want Australia to be that team in the future (and also because team that entertains the neutral generally more successful then grinders as well).

I admit though that the likes of Craig Foster and Les Murray could have done that with more diplomacy and tact. They could have easily got their message across without getting hate mail from Celtic, Ranger and Chelsea fans. Despite their lack of ability to be diplomatic it doesn’t change the fact that their main points is very much correct.

By: fatboi-v-

fatboi-v- — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 03:56:50 +0000

keep up the good work Fink. i am starting to feel sorry for Arnold. everyone I talk to about aussie football are firmly in the “ARNOLD OUT” camp. he is even starting to become a cultural identity in that everytime someone has failed miserably, it is refered to as ‘doing an Arnold’.

By: Slippery Jim

Slippery Jim — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 03:29:37 +0000

dasilva, SBS are enamored with anything Brazilian when it comes to football, hence their love of Phil Scolari and tongue-in-cheek remarks from Les about being a Chelsea fan and Foster backing Chelsea for the title.
There are three dimensions to football commentary, the outlook of the players, the fans and the neutrals, and I find a lot of the commentary from Les Murray to some degree only two dimensional because he is not a fan of any club (or so he says), which overlooks one crucial outlook on the game. He cannot, for instance, seem to understand the joy that fans have if their team plays rubbish football but still pull off a victory against their biggest rivals.
The fact that the opinion Les has of clubs can change with whichever way the wind blows does him no credit, but if it makes the commentary on the few Chelsea games they screen each year on SBS less irritating all the better.
What I really appreciate is the comments Bozza has been making on Fox, for instance backing Chelsea “100 million percent”! There is a guy who knows what it means to love your club.
To be fair, I personally feel that SBS are making more of an effort to be less one-eyed in their views, so credit to them for that. I have no problem with them being ‘on my side’ as I try and support issues that I believe in and despite what you may think do not disagree with certain things simply to be a contrarian. I agree with much of what Les and others are trying to achieve for football, and love their passion for the game.
Under no circumstances though will I support what has become nothing less than a hate campaign that relentlessly pursues humiliation of a loyal Australian player and assistant coach as its objective, against a man who is a long time servant of Australian football, and as this article points out, causes distress for his family and friends as collateral. I don’t care what his failings may or may not be, he still deserves to be treated with respect. This kind of malicious campaign is what makes people refer to the media deservedly as “sharks”.
The fact that Jesse, a talented, award winning writer who has a great book out which has got fantastic reviews stoops regularly to both bashing Arnold and banging on every article about his favourite Championship player not getting a run in the national team is a waste in that he could be spending his time writing on the important or overlooked issues in football the way he used to do.

By: dasilva

dasilva — Sat, 04 Oct 2008 15:19:27 +0000

I guess the problem with SBS was that they see all these problems with the game and they wanted everything to be achieve now or at least near future.

I guess they didn’t realise these things take time and also FFA has higher priorities things to do first. It’s like they bang on about youth development and coaching standard when the highest priority for FFA at the time was to get the A-league up and running and financially stable, make sure the Soccerroos qualify for the world cup and lobbying AFC for Australia to join Asia.

NEvertheless you have to wonder though. If Foster and SBS didn’t bang on and on and on about youth development. Small sided games, the value of possession football and the needs for Australia to have a Technical Director. Would Australia now have all of those things now? I do believe SBS played a major role of keeping these issues in the national consciousness which forced FFA to eventually to do something about it. If they weren’t it would at least took FFA a longer time to do something about those issues and maybe they wouldn’t do anything about it at all.

Now it seems Foster has learn how to carry himself. The recent shootout. He talks about the need of intergrating futsal with youth development. He admits it is still a lower priority FFA issues because FFA current focus is getting the states FFA compliant and dealing with NSW so we can’t expect change immediately. He then praise FFA for beginning a report investigating the role of Futsal and how to integrate it to youth development.

Perfect. That’s how it should be done.

In any case I still believe a lot of criticism of Fozzy and co at SBS were a bit unfair and to a lot of people critique of SBs were of their caricatures and stereotypes about them rather then any links to reality. Especially this overly negative and anti-English rubbish people bang on about. People just pick up negative things SBS say and ignore anything positive they say as it doesn’t fit their preconception.

A question for Slippery Jim?

Before you seem to fend off a lot of criticism from Fozzy and Co. at SBS because of their constant criticism of Chelsea and Mourinho.

How does it feel now that SBS and Craig Foster now are born again Chelsea fans. Now that Scolari took over the club. Those guys can’t help but praise Chelsea whenever they can and keep on going about how much better their style of football under scolari and how much players like Deco has transform the way they play football.

Foster even said that if he was a betting man he would put money on chelsea doing the double winning the EPL and the champions league.

THey are now on your side. Does that bother you?

By: Midfielder

Midfielder — Sat, 04 Oct 2008 14:25:41 +0000

Kool manager says Kool has told him not to give GA his new phone number …….. in the Asian Cup it was said by many the team was spilt and that GA had lost the room.

My only guess is funding …….. money is tight ……….Hrrrrrrrrrr that none of the two new teams appointed GA as coach when he applied and none of the expected other teams coming in will appoint him says more than Jes ever could.

ARNOLD OUT is a cry heard throughout the land I can see no reason for him to stay IMO Tony Vidmar could do a similar job and would be closer to the current crop of players.

Jes just an aside ……….. when SBS were going on about GA they where right ……. but at the same time it appeared SBS had declared war on the FFA and where treating the A-League like it was 100 years old and showed me anyway SBS where finding it hard to grow with football caught in their own “what about me it isni’t fair” war, ……… which clouded the real faults being highlighted ………. thankfully this year with Francis there to tone Fozza down a bit much more balance is being used. But part of the lack of SBS response was everything was being torn apart last year ….. but as I said a lesson appears to have beem learned.

By: dasilva

dasilva — Sat, 04 Oct 2008 05:18:22 +0000

SJ
I’m just speculating what if he didn’t hold arnold in high regard.
Would pim have any say in removing Arnie is he didn’t like him.

I admit it is a moot point as pim values arnie as an assistant manager

i just think it is very curious that FFA pretty much says if you want to coach the soccerroos, you must have Graham Arnold as your assistant manager.

By: Slippery Jim

Slippery Jim — Sat, 04 Oct 2008 00:21:15 +0000

Even Jesse thinks “Verbeek clearly holds Arnold in high regard”.

By: dasilva

dasilva — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 14:22:56 +0000

“If Pim didn’t feel he was of benefit, he wouldn’t be there.”

I’m not too sure about that Slippery Jim. I thought that was one of the precondition in choosing the national coach. The reason why FFA rejected Troullier is because Troullier didn’t want FFA to force him from having Arnie as an assistance coach. Pim only accepted that precondition after speaking to Guus Hiddink and Rob Baan and getting reassurance from them that Arnie is a good bloke. In any case I think Pim probably doesn’t have a problem with Arnie as an assistant manager.

Nevertheless if Pim didn’t like Arnie I’m not too sure if FFA would have sacked Arnie based on his recommendation. It seems to me that Arnie seems to be more protected from his job then Pim Verbeek is.

By: Slippery Jim

Slippery Jim — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 12:35:13 +0000

Try again without the html blunder:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2008/oct/02/manchesterunited.chelsea

By: Slippery Jim

Slippery Jim — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 12:33:16 +0000

Talking of coaches v the media, here are some href=”http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2008/oct/02/manchesterunited.chelsea”>amusing examples. I particularly enjoyed Javier Clemente’s cow comment. Oh, and Joe Kinnear anyone!?

By: Slippery Jim

Slippery Jim — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 07:16:00 +0000

Los Oso, Graeme Arnold is a member if the FFA football hall of fame, he is an ex-socceroo with a distinguished record, he knows the australian players inside out, he knows the Australian football scene and its history.

All of these things equate to experience and knowlede of the game unique to Australia that Pim, and Guus before him, were able to benefit from. If Pim didn’t feel he was of benefit, he wouldn’t be there. The fact that unqualified (in a coaching sense) pundits like Jesse disagree with this (and other decisions Pim has made) does not mean that Pim himself doesn’t know what he is doing.

An assistant coach does not need to be a tactical or motivational genius, but is often chosen for his history with the team and his local knowledge. Take Chelsea’s last two assistants, both ex-Chelsea players, both valuable for the club, but are not necessarily first team coach material (although I would love to see Steve Clarke given the reigns at another smaller club).

By: Ben of Phnom Penh

Ben of Phnom Penh — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 06:27:19 +0000

The issue here is as to why GA hasn’t had to face the media in relation to the Olympics. He may have very valid reasons as to why the campaign went as it did and he should be offered the chance to explain these. It is a simple matter of accountability. If he was a completely privately financed individual then he would not have any accountability to the footballing public, this is not the case. If the Olyroos had been a roaring success I am not convinced he would have spurned the chance of receiving credit by shunning the media.

You can’t accept credit and spurn responsibility when it suits. Or then again as it turns out, maybe you can.

By: Los Oso

Los Oso — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 05:40:44 +0000

Slippery Jim,

Would you care to outline the “valuable local knowledge and experience that fit nicely into his contribution as assistant” that you say GA provides?

By: dasilva

dasilva — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 04:27:25 +0000

My view in this development vs results is somewhere in between (or both). The fact is when you reach 23 where you are playing professional football, getting results is an integral part of development. Players at 23 should learn to develop winning mentality.

I also don’t believe in having our national coach taking over the olyroos. Let’s say Pim Verbeek coach the olyroos and they get knock out in the group stage that would severely undermine his position as national coach and put him under unnecessary media scutiny. This is what happen with Dunga for Brazil.

However Pim Verbeek should be able to give a small list of players that must be selected in the olympics as they are in his immediate plans for soccerroos. Graham Arnold can then select the rest of the players. Also the style of football the olyroos play should be consistent with the way the soccerroos play. Olyroos should play in the same style of football in what the Soccerroos would play in that same conditions. So if Soccerroos play in a particular formation and play possession football in humid conditions then the olyroos should play in the same way. This will give a better judge who can slot in the national side.

However under those frame works and restriction that pim laid out. Graham Arnold must be able to whatever he can to win matches and get us a medal.

Therefore we have a side that is preparing for soccerroos and trying to win us a medal. A balance between the two fields.

By: jimbo

jimbo — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 04:14:29 +0000

True Tah,
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a coach in any sport perform so badly, make such enemies and show such bias against particular individuals and still keep their job.

I’m growing to accept that Pimbo is the Socceroos manager (did I just say that . . .) but I would have thought that he has had enough time in the job to make up his own mind and let Arnold go his own way.

Sure, you can get some great local advice from Aussie coaches like Arnold, but you can do that over a coffee or over the phone - you don’t need to keep him on the FFA payroll with a six figure salary.
Pimbo would do well to have a coffee with Farina and Van Egg as well and get their valuable input – for free.

By: Millster

Millster — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 04:11:11 +0000

DaSilva - spot on about the real debate. To me far more important than personality based clashes in the June/July period was the fact that the “raison-d’etre” of the Olyroos was so evidently not determined. And what that pointed to was the lack of a national, consistent, integrated strategic development plan with the Socceroos at the top (on the national team side for the plan at least, because mine would also include a development strategy at club level that looks towards ACL and WCC performance goals).

Slippery and I had a rousing debate here back then on whether the Olyroos should rightfully hunt for medals or whether they were a “blooding” and development squad for the Socceroos WC campaigns 2 and 6 years later. He thought the former and I thought the latter. We could not resolve this issue - not only because of our own fundamental disagreements - but more importantly because there was just no guidance from anywhere on what the FFA intention was.

By: Slippery Jim

Slippery Jim — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 04:00:57 +0000

Jesse, to claim to interview Pim and then leave out all direct quotes, and try to swing your opinions with lines such as “Verbeek inferred …” is not credible journalism, and only leads me to believe you are making this stuff up as you go along.

For someone who claims not to use this column to bash Arnold, you sure like to lay the boot into the guy at every possible chance.

By: True Tah

True Tah — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 03:44:43 +0000

Graham Arnold sounds like the sort of bloke who should take his years salary, go down to Crown Casino and put it all on Red 31 on the Roulette - given his luck and the chances he seemed to have had, he would probably walk out a millionaire - although given his playing and coaching history, I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that he already is one.

Does the W-League need any coaches? Why doesn’t he start coaching one of those teams?

By: dasilva

dasilva — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 03:36:26 +0000

I actually gave Arnold the benefit of the doubt that Pim had his say in the squad selection. How wrong I was with that.

Now it turns out all those “media vultures” and “slanderers” from SBS were right.

I guess in the way there was no contradiction
In the first press conference he said that Pim had no say in the selection. In the second press conference he told us that he inform Pim about his selection week before the public knew about it. So there was no lying from Arnold. So its pretty much Arnold told pim about his selection and pim had no say or input in changing it.

Its funny when SBS first criticise Arnold about the olympics, the whole debate was whether SBS have a personal vendetta on Arnold or not and the relevance of SBS as a football broadcaster by people at FOX (although you Jesse didn’t help by playing along with this battle. Forget about the football culture wars. Don’t be involve in this stupid FOX vs SBS crap. Just talk about the issues that matter.). The real debate is whether the olyroos is Arnies team with the primary goal to win the medal and Pim should have no say or should it be a team to assist Pim for the World cup and hence Pim should have a large role in selecting the side or something in between was avoided. Oh well instead of debating the issues lets go and bash SBS for being overly negative and Arnold gets away with everything and the issue about what is the role of the olyroos is still unresolved. Hah

It seems to me that people are complaining that there are too many yes man in football and there is a lack of scrutiny in the media and then when people do scutinise they are automatically dismissed as people with personal agendas etc.

In any case. I couldn’t care less about Arnold anymore and no longer care if he gets a press conference or not explaining the Olympics debacle. I’m just safely secure knowing that Arnold will not become a head coach anymore of any Australian national team (then again with FFa you never know. Arnold is like Lazurus with a triple bypass)

The soccerroos are back and Adelaide are in the ACL semi final and the A-league is underway. Arnold and FFA near silent on this matter was successful as the olympics become out of sight and out of mind as more important and exciting things are happening and people move on as the anger of the olyroos performance subside.

By: Jesse Fink

Jesse Fink — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 03:34:51 +0000

Slippery Jim, you are never happy on any matter pertaining to GA. Take it or leave it. I couldn’t give a rat’s whether you think it’s credible or not.

As for interviewing Arnold, I have done so twice, and in totality it wasn’t the greatest experience. Ask a few other journos for their Arnold war stories and read my book before telling me I don’t have any balls.

By: Slippery Jim

Slippery Jim — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 03:25:01 +0000

Greg Russell, you make an important distinction between the role and skills required from an assistant coach compared to a head coach of a football team. I believe Arnold has valuable local knowledge and experience that fit nicely into his contribution as assistant.

Jesse, you have a lot to say in this article (although much of it seems vague and based on assumptions) without having the balls to interview Arnold himself. If you are so obsessed with a media response from the man perhaps you should bury the hatchet and speak to Arnold himself. Or have you burned too many bridges to do that?

Not an actual quote from Pim in sight, for all that you say you have spoken to him. Not exactly credible journalism.