Buying an A-League franchise takes some heart

By jimbo
October 6th 2008 @ 8:21am

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A few months ago the A-League franchise hotline was ringing off the wall with investors looking to buy a share of a sporting business with annual growth running at nearly 20 per cent.

Following several highly enthusiastic and well-credentialed bids for additional A-League licenses in the past year or so, Ben Buckley CEO of the FFA said, “We continue to be very encouraged with the level of interest in the Hyundai A-League. The attractiveness of the competition is clearly reflected in the level of interest in the additional licenses and the quality of the bids we are receiving.”

Buckley reiterated the FFA’s earlier view that, ultimately, the Hyundai A-League has the capacity to expand from the current eight teams to be at least a twelve team competition and possibly fourteen teams.

He added: “When and where we expand the competition is measured simply by whether it is right for football, right for the existing Hyundai A-League clubs, right for the new clubs and right for the local community.”

It takes a lot of heart to buy an A-League franchise these days.

The starting point for any A-League bid is five million dollars or more in financial guarantees and a sound technical, football and business plan to take the club forward. Not withstanding are also the requirements for access to the playing and training facilities and a large enough population base to attract the fans to pay their money at the turnstiles.

Frank Lowy also specified that a club would need an average of about ten thousand spectators per game to just about break even. The FFA would also provide clubs with a share of television and media deals, gate receipts, sponsorship and other revenues.

Clubs can also raise money from trading football players to other clubs and selling club merchandising and their own local sponsorship deals.

Melbourne Victory is the best supported and most profitable club in the A-League.

The FFA recently announced they have begun exclusive talks with a consortium to create a second Melbourne A-League side for the 2010/2011 season, which will compete directly with Victory in the Melbourne football market. Melbourne businessman and thoroughbred racehorse owner, Peter Sidwell leads the consortium and the bid has been provisionally named the Melbourne Heart.

The FFA has given the Melbourne Heart syndicate the exclusive bidding rights for the next Melbourne football team franchise ahead of another consortium known as Southern Cross FC, which was linked with former NSL side, South Melbourne FC.

How will a second Melbourne team fare? Is this a good time to buy into a football team in Australia?

Understandably, Melbourne Victory chairman Geoff Lord doesn’t think it’s the right time for a second Melbourne A-League team. With Gold Coast and Townsville entering the A-League next season, Lord has no issue with new teams in new markets, providing they are viable, sustainable and progress the competition and the game.

But with the new team in Melbourne, Lord is not certain of the sustainability of the current market and for the sake of both franchises, Lord believes a second team might be about five years too soon. “As a businessman, I was prepared to start Melbourne Victory,” Lord said. “Today, as a businessman, I wouldn’t be prepared to start up a second team in Melbourne. But that’s only my personal judgment. They’ll have love of the game and passion, but whether their business model will work, I’m a bit skeptical.”

“I don’t think Melbourne is ready or big enough for a second side. I would say they need 10 years. It’s going to be hard work (but) we’ve got our own issues and that’s to keep building the club and making sure it represents the whole of Melbourne.”

Lord has reluctantly come to accept that a second Melbourne team is now inevitable. “If there is a second side coming in from Melbourne, then the best thing for Victory to do is continue to build on our progress as much as we can and drive to a new level of support. We’ll have to work harder.”

The financial performance of the A-League teams to date has been mixed and a good return on the large outlay is far from guaranteed.

On the plus side, two A-League clubs; Melbourne Victory and Central Coast Mariners have already turned a profit in only their third year of operation and are looking to make a handy surplus in the coming financial year.

Recouping a five million dollar plus outlay and making a profit within three years is a very good return on investment for any type of business.

At the other end of the scale, the owners of the defunct New Zealand Knights football team from Auckland have had their fingers badly burned and their financial backers will see very little of the millions they invested for their failed license.

This season, the poor crowds and diminishing support at Perth Glory and Wellington Phoenix put them below Frank Lowy’s break even benchmarks.

If the FFA are consistent in their rulings, Perth and Wellington will have their A-League licenses revoked if they fail financially. There are a number of consortiums willing to take their place.

With the A-League’s slow start this season and falling attendances - from a high of over fourteen thousand per game last season to below twelve thousand per match so far this year and the major financial collapses and market meltdowns across the globe, its going to take a lot of heart to hand over millions of dollars for an A-League franchise license in the next couple of years and get a decent return on your investment.

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Redb said | October 6th 2008 @ 8:37am | Report comment

Jimbo,

Good article.

Almost any new business let alone a new sporting franchise is going to find it tough to raise money from shell shocked banks (who are acting like timid crustaceans at the mo) , gather sponsors,etc.

Geoff Lord was interviewed on radio SEN in Melbourne just after the Victory game and he was a little disappointed in the crowd figure of 18,000 for the Melb v Perth game despite no AFL or horse racing on. He didn’t state he blamed the prevailing economic climate and waning confidence but you can take it as read that this is a significant factor.

Fans will pick and choose much more carefully where they spend their hard earned, whilst attending sport is a religion in Melbourne it is a still a discretionary spend item. If only the banks in the US had been more discretionary in their lending practices and not adopted casino captialism with such vengeance we all wouldn’t be in the shite.

Still, in 2-3 years we will be back on the road to recovery again (hopefully) its the nature of these boom and bust cycles, if the pockets are deep enough new franchises will be OK. Although doubts still linger in my mind if second teams in previously one town one team cities work.

Redb

p.s. the looming Melb v Sydney battle on 25 Oct will be well attended.

Savvas Tzionis said | October 6th 2008 @ 10:29am | Report comment

A second Melbourne team is probably doomed to fail. Unlike Sydney which has distinct regions, Melbourne is quite united.

It looks like they are going to give a licence to the outer Eastern team called Casey. But that area caters for the large British contigent that already follows the Victory.

If it fails, who will they turn to (if at all( for the second team?

Will they allow the biggest team from the old NSL, South Melbourne, the chance to compete?

Redb said | October 6th 2008 @ 10:44am | Report comment

Savvas,

I’ve said a few times, the remnants of South Melbourne and its fan base have the best chance of survival as a 2nd team those SM fans would automaticially jump off Melb Victory (If there were ever on) and support South Melb. Southern Cross FC (South Melb backed) was not selected as the 2nd Melb bidder no doubt due to ethnic ties, FFA are obviously trying to avoid them. Probably with justification.

The only 2nd teams that have succeeded thus far in Australia were pre-established teams with rusted on fan bases from feeder competitions.

Your right about Melbourne, the only social division is perhaps the Yarra River - Melbourne Victory support is not sourced from either side, it is generic Melbourne. Casey is a far flung south-eastern suburb - the pure definition of mortgage belt.

BigAl said | October 6th 2008 @ 10:59am | Report comment

Those ‘ . . . Baghdatis fans’ at the last Australian Tennis Open probably provided a timely reminder to all decision makers, of the likely problems that would ensue if a team associated with South Melb. / Hellas were admitted into the A-League

keeper11 said | October 6th 2008 @ 11:08am | Report comment

..A-league should justfollow the NRL’s formula for a…ahem ‘ national’ competition..

..sell yourself and be propped up by a media company to the tune of $16million a year ala MEL Storm…..

..sh**tload of free and positive publicity out of step with your actual popularity to boot……

jimbo said | October 6th 2008 @ 11:58am | Report comment

keeper11,
I’ve often wished that Lowy or Constantine had made their billions from TV and newspapers - it would make the game so much easier to promote and sell.
Although Gordon, who owns WIN TV, is now looking to invest in South Coast FC, so they might get some good media coverage in the Wollongong area.

Interesting question about Southern Cross FC. Many people think they would get more fans than Heart. They are more football savvy and would do a better job of putting together a good side and running a team than Sidwell - who only knows horse racing.
They would probably get a couple of high profile Greek footballers as Marquees and fill the new stadium.

The FFA didn’t react kindly to the “ethnic” elements of the Southern Cross consortium.
Really funny isn’t it - must be the only country in the world where being ethnic and following football is a negative.
I know a lot of the ethnic pioneers of the game are really p1ssed off by it and wouldn’t watch the A-League, even if you paid them too - only in Australia.

Redb said | October 6th 2008 @ 12:09pm | Report comment

What’s your call then, should FFA keep the old ethnic teams out of the A League? They didn’t play nicely together at times in the past.

Are you implying the FFA have racist tendencies with regard to expansion ?

oikee said | October 6th 2008 @ 12:09pm | Report comment

Maybe the Storm just move outta melbourne because lets face it, the melbourne crowd over-all are pretty piss-poor supporting other codes. Another football team in melbourne would only create more angst among the rules supporters. Keep the growth up north where all games are appreciated not just the rules game. Face it, queensland is where all the action is happening. They will be building bigger stadiums soon to house all the finals with-in 10 years. The growth is queensland, not melbourne. The largest building projects over the next 5 years is coming out of queensland, get in now or get left behind.

The next game between the socceroos and quatar and you will see the truth. Dont be fooled by the old slogan, we are the sporting capital, thats fast dissapearing. The power and passion is in queensland.

Redb said | October 6th 2008 @ 12:13pm | Report comment

Oikee,

Hardly accurate. Melbourne A League crowds are the biggest in the land.

Slippery Jim said | October 6th 2008 @ 12:16pm | Report comment

RedB, so is Pippu back to his chirpy self after MV smashed whoever it was and avoided the red-card conspirators on Saturday?

Redb said | October 6th 2008 @ 12:28pm | Report comment

SJ,

Dunno….probably searching for an entry angle. A passionate fan our Pip, I kept him in the upper stand at Telstra Dome to avoid a fence jump

There was little chance Melb Victory would have copped a red card on Saturday arvo anyway the refs were too busy shaking their head in disbelief at the poor display by Perth Glory. Perhaps a red card to PG for simulating a futbol team?

Allsop and friends on the other hand played well.

oikee said | October 6th 2008 @ 12:36pm | Report comment

I am Talking growth redb, not who’s the biggest. Where the growth is going to be best justified.

Slippery Jim said | October 6th 2008 @ 12:36pm | Report comment

hah hah, simulating a football team! I made Allsopp my captain in fantasy A-League - looks like some investments are still paying dividends

Redb said | October 6th 2008 @ 12:45pm | Report comment

Hate to break it to you but other parts of Australia are also experiencing growth, in particular Melbourne. Queensland’s population may exceed Victoria’s in 50 years (based on current estimates) but Brisbane will still be well behind Melbourne. These are facts. Go to ABS website for details.

Melbourne - the sporting capital of the universe.

Redb said | October 6th 2008 @ 12:47pm | Report comment

yes Pippinu was pretty happy with Allsop he is in his team but not as Captain I think. Changes the way you view games at times with fantasy selections especially opposition players who do well for you.

Millster said | October 6th 2008 @ 12:54pm | Report comment

RedB - your best line ever “simulating a football team” good work!

Interesting question about whether the FFA is racist (too storng a word I know). While I understand their fear of the way things were perhaps the pendulum has swung too far the other way… and I can understand the views of those ethnic loyal ’socca’ guys who battled through the Australia of the 60s-70s-80s supporting their game while it was so prejudiced against, and now locked out of the ethnic side of their support.

I’m starting to believe here in Sydney that the best option for next team is Illawarra (also representing some of Sutherland) rather than just Western Sydney. I think there is still ways to keep the one-team logic in place and I think this article is spot on in terms of the view from club managers and investors. Would a Geelong team make more sense? I don’t know Victoria well enough to make the call but just feel like Melbourne Heart is a risk - for both clubs. But if I had to have a 2nd Melb club it would certainly be South Melb.

Oikee - no question about Qld but you can stay quiet and happy in the knowledge that QLD already have Townsville and Gold Coast starting next season so they have been well looked after - in fact currently we’re talking of moving Vic from 1 to 2 clubs, with you guys already having 3 from next season’s kick-off. Oh and socceroos v qatar would sell out anywhere - its a national game and a serious one at that so different to club level sports.

The Bear said | October 6th 2008 @ 12:57pm | Report comment

I think the sceond melb team needs to come in now. New stadium soon, would not want either team feeling as they are territorial at the new olympic park. As far as the fans go… well who knows. Syd v Melb in season 2 had 50K in attendance at T-Dome. I think there is hope for the Heart.

Graciously,
The Bear

Redb said | October 6th 2008 @ 1:09pm | Report comment

Millster,

Melbourne dominates Victoria’s population, Geelong has about 150,000 then your down to Bendigo, Ballarat, La Trobe Valley (combined Morwell, Moe,etc) about 100,000 each. Big difference to Sydney with Newcastle (500,000) and Wollongong (250,000?). Geelong is possibly the only regional choice and would embrace a team, parochial lot those from sleepy hollow, but the town is also is in economic neutral gear and lacks a big end of town benefactor that a Melbourne type baron would be looking for and the business marketing opportunties of a city with 3,800,000 as opposed to 150,000.

From what I recall Melbourne Victory were one of the last teams to get their act together at the formation of the A League (funding and Board issues). Thus I think one team was considered difficult at the time without thinking about the next Melb team, with hindsight the decision to call them Melbourne may well be a long term limiting factor.

Redb said | October 6th 2008 @ 1:19pm | Report comment

The Bear,

With respect, the stadium they play at is not the issue, it will be new, shiny and located in the middle of Melbourne it has little suburban or regional connection. it is aprt of a massive sports precinct that inlcudes the MCG, Rod Laver Arena, Hisense Arena (multi purpose) , Olympic Park, Lexus Centre,etc.

The issue is how you differentiate as a futbol fan, Melbourne Heart from Melbourne Victory. Unless you’ve been under a rock for the last 4 years, Melb Victory are the futbol team of choice in Melbourne and have done little wrong to fans. Remember its primarily Telstra Dome and the FFA that have caused most of the angst amongst BWB groups.etc. Happy to be corrected on that. But certainly as far as the general sporting public is concerned there is nothing but goodwill for Victory.

The Substitute said | October 6th 2008 @ 1:22pm | Report comment

In the one city, one team rule, Melbourne is the exception. Sydney can be split up geographically, Queensland has lots of regional centres to work with — in Victoria, it’s Melbourne. It is almost as if you’ve got to have a strong presence in Melbourne if you are to succeed Victoria-wide, even Geelong (in the AFL) play 3 home games a year in Melbourne.

While this new team may end up being “based” in Casey, it will still be a Melbourne team. They will be no different to a Hawthorn or Western Bulldogs — their support will not be geographically limited. (Didn’t Sydney FC at one time train in Parramatta? Do they still do that? They were never considered a Parramatta club, were they?)

As for Geoff Lord’s comments, well, you could tell he had his MV hat on when he made those, I wouldn’t read too much into them Apparently a team now isn’t the right time, he would wait ten years (when MV has built its monopoly…)

“Today, as a businessman, I wouldn’t be prepared to start up a second team in Melbourne” should’ve read “Today, as a MV chairman…”

Savvas Tzionis said | October 6th 2008 @ 1:24pm | Report comment

Melbourne could face he same ‘problem’ the NRl faces with the Bronco’s.

It is nigh on imposible to add a second team to the NRL from Brisbane. It would have littel chance of getting any fans.

That is why you may see Hellas getting that second spot eventually. The problem would be that the anti-Greeks (Croats and Slav Macedonian’s, and to a lesser extent Turkish fans) and the Greeks themselves (like those idiotic Tennis fans) would end up having some sort of skirmish.

However, considering some of the current troubles that occur at the A-League games, and the beefed up security these days, the troublemakers will be easily idenified, and gladly turfed out.

But another problem is by the time a Hellas is entered, the Greeks may have become so disenfrachised that they will have lost the passion.

Might be time by then for a Chinese team. They are migrating and will continue to migrate here.

dasilva said | October 6th 2008 @ 1:40pm | Report comment

Ethnics team should be rightfully dead. There’s should be no such thing as a Chinese team or a greek team or a Croatian team or etc. However if there is a club in an area with large Greek community and attracts large number of minority groups. Then there is no problem if its clear that it is an Australian club.

About the Southern Cross. I wonder was South Melbourne an exclusively Greek club during the NSL. Were they inclusive of other ethnicity or did they alienate mainstream audience.

There’s seem to be great deal of paranoia about returning to the bad old days of ethnics club. I wonder were those clubs very exclusive to their own ethnic roots or was it just an Australian club with large ethnic support.

Savvas Tzionis said | October 6th 2008 @ 1:49pm | Report comment

Dasilva,

you are wrong.

Celtic and Rangers are based on Religion. Historically a more poisonous divide than even ethnicity!!

Are you going to tell me that if there were 400,000 Greeks in Melbourne and they could guarantee 40,000 people every week they SHOULD NOT be allowed in?

As for Hellas history. Towarsd the end there was a contigent of non-Greeks who supported Hellas. They probably appreciated the efforts that these ‘grass roots’ club had made in establishing the code. But generally they were a Greek club although i am aware of Hungarians and other ethnic groups who were regular attendee’s.

Redb said | October 6th 2008 @ 1:56pm | Report comment

I’m with davsilva.

dasilva said | October 6th 2008 @ 1:58pm | Report comment

No one saying we should stop having Greeks watching the match

I have a problem of having a club that is a greek club. A club based on ethnicity (look I don’t care what Scotland do. we have our own standards.) I’m actually from an ethnic minority as well. If there was a vietnamese club then I would refuse to attend the match out of principle as it encourages division not unity. I don’t mind having a club in the area where there is a large greek community and encourage people in that area to attend the club. I’ll draw the line in saying it is a greek club and a club to serve the greek community in particular.

Savvas Tzionis said | October 6th 2008 @ 1:58pm | Report comment

Oh, that is such a great defence!

Redb said | October 6th 2008 @ 2:01pm | Report comment

Having clubs based on ethnicity is not what Australia is about. It would potentially alienate those groups and almost certainly be a catalyst for trouble at games.

Savvas Tzionis said | October 6th 2008 @ 2:01pm | Report comment

You are basically espousing undemocratic means. I am not talking about your personal decision not to attend, but your belief that a certain criteria should apply when admitting a team to the competition.

Did the NSL ever block the entrance of the Northern Spirit or any other ‘non-ethnic’ club?

Savvas Tzionis said | October 6th 2008 @ 2:04pm | Report comment

You have NOT addressed my hypothesis.

If there are 400,000 Greeks in Melburne which would guarantee 40,000 fans every week, how can you STOP a bid from entering.

Millster said | October 6th 2008 @ 2:17pm | Report comment

Savvas - I am strongly with dasilva and redb on this too. You can stop a bid from entering because the A-League is a geography-based competition not an ethnically based one.

To say “this is a Greek club” discriminates against anyone who isn’t Greek. Even if technically they can be a part of it, they will be well aware of not being the ‘home culture’ of the club unless they are from that ethnicity. For example in my seven years in Canberra I was able to walk in to the Hellenic Club and have a beer. But being an Aussie-Frenchman and not Greek I was well and truly aware that I was not ‘on the inner’ in terms of who the club was set up to cater for.

Whereas a Melbourne club represents part or all of Melbourne, and if Greek people (and French, English, Chinese, Indian, Catholic, Muslim, Hare Krishna, etc) choose to make that their club of choice then that is cool.

Now middle ground is that I personally prefer South Melbourne / Southern Cross on geography and naming grounds as well as due to some tradition. But I think if that consortium is to be successful it should prove that it has a strong and central motivation to link into a diverse range of ethnic groups and to represent the area as a whole not just a cultural subset of it. This includes having a mix of non-Greek board members, non-Greek sponsors/backers, and community involvement with non-Greek clubs and associations.

dasilva said | October 6th 2008 @ 2:22pm | Report comment

What is exactly wrong with having a criteria that says. This is an Australian club and is there for the Australian community. That this club doesn’t belong to any particular ethnicity and all ethnicity are welcome. Yes ethnics club can’t legally stop different ethnic groups from attending but it’s pretty much well known it is there club and the purpose of the club is to serve only there community.

In all honest I always found the whole concept of ethnic clubs as quite racist and discrimatory. Why not have a club called the Anglo or Caucasion football club. There to serve the local white community.

I don’t mind if lets say a person from the Greek community wants to create a football club in an area where a large greek community lives in. The problem is when that clubs is then called a greek club and becomes very much exclusive to that race.

To me it always reminds me at uni,work, school etc. One ethnic race in one corner forming one group, another ethnic race in another corner forming a another group and etc and none of them talking to each other and mixing. I find that very dangerous to this country and something not worth encouraging. I get quite disgusted everytime I speak to Vietnamese who form Vietnamese only social groups (Vietnamese uni groups, vietnamese tennis league, vietnamese soccer team etc). I found them deliberately isolating themselves from the rest of society. It’s like going backwards in race relations by encouraging formation of these groups.

dasilva said | October 6th 2008 @ 2:26pm | Report comment

Millster
You express my views better than I can.

A club geographically located where there is a large ethnic community is something I can support. Not a this is an [insert race] club.

Savvas Tzionis said | October 6th 2008 @ 2:28pm | Report comment

South Melbourne Hellas would still be geographically based for the ‘hypothetical’ 400,000 Greeks in Melbourne.

As for not feeling welcome, if I went into Collingwood’s training rooms I would not feel welcome either!!! (I barrack for Carlton). No ethnics there!!!

This is all quite academic. There are only 100,000 Greeks in Mleoburne. But your paranoia is so strong that you could not even muster that argument stopping fact.

Savvas Tzionis said | October 6th 2008 @ 2:30pm | Report comment

Dasilva my friend…you are an assimilationist I see!!!!

You do not want Vietnamese to create social clubs to allow them to hold on to their culture?

Thats like a self-imposed White Australia policy!!!

dasilva said | October 6th 2008 @ 2:42pm | Report comment

So you don’t feel welcome if you are in a place where people are not the same ethnicity?

I admit I don’t know the details of this Southern Cross bid or South Melbourne Hellas. So I haven’t actually said that we should reject the bid. What I’m saying is the whole concept of ethnic clubs shouldn’t exist. If Southern Cross wasn’t an exclusively Greek club and is a club that serves Australia instead of a specific ethnicity and makes effort to engage to the wider community then I’ll approve of it. I don’t know whether the southern cross fits that criteria or not. I and probably Millster and RedB were writing about the general concept of ethnic clubs. There is a difference between an ethnic club and a club that has large ethnic support.

Millster said | October 6th 2008 @ 2:44pm | Report comment

For mine nothing wrong with ethnically-based cultural and social clubs. Even amateur sporting offshoots of those.

But we are talking here of an elite national competition with a limited number of clubs, and based on geographic representation. No one group of stakeholders should ‘own’ the club - they need to be broadly representative.

On dasilvas broader views I take a balance. I belong to the Alliance Francaise (I’m half French). But that accounts for maybe 3% of my total social interaction, the rest is with friends, colleagues and contacts from all colours, creeds and religions. Aussie life needs ethnic clubs much less anyway than it did 30-40 years ago because there is much more diversity in normal life, and much less discrimination.

Koala Bear said | October 6th 2008 @ 2:47pm | Report comment

Living on the Gold Coast, an expat from Sydney, observing Melbourne from afar; you get the feeling that what had happened in Melbourne with its poor 18k attendance was due to Southern Cross bid being rejected, another Greek tragedy. Because of its disguise, of a new non ethnic Melbourne club.. The rejected bid was not without good reason ..

I ask the question; if Melbourne has no social divide and I am suspecting that the 10k missing Melburnians that did not show for the Melb v Glory match were of Greek heritage; therefore to me it seemed that they clearly are showing their no show protest, or disgust to the FFA for vetoing the Southern Cross bid; why? Because the FFA believe they can’t unite Melbourne .. Only the Greek community and that is a fair enough judgment ..

South Melbourne Hellas has a right to exist, but not the right to represent a city, in a national competition that excludes the masses ie of other Melburnians, and that would go for any other ethnic community trying to hijack the City, even those British expats.. Tho I believe the second Melb team should follow the English models such as Man U and Man City or Liverpool and Everton.. Where the supporters do switch, (not all) from one home ground to another to watch football..

This provides the spectators a home game every week … I hope and believe that all the Melbourne folk will both support both teams not perhaps equally, but will turn up in numbers, when one of the home teams plays at the new rectangle stadium..

I feel sorry for Sth Melbourne Hellas to have their ambitions stifled, but their place is in the state league feeding the grass roots in Melbourne ie a stepping stone to one of the Melbourne HAL teams, for all Melburnians not just a hard chore of Greeks who just take pride in their Greek community.. I have Greek heritage, but I speak for the good of the HAL, and the good of Australian Football in general…

~~~~~~~~
KB

Millster said | October 6th 2008 @ 2:55pm | Report comment

KB - very well written.

Savvas Tzionis said | October 6th 2008 @ 2:56pm | Report comment

Not at all…I play cricket for goodness sake… not one of the more migrant attractive games (except Indians etc.).

‘There is a difference between an ethnic club and a club that has large ethnic support.’ That is a key difference and I am glad you made it. And it brings me to the Southern Cross bid. I actually believe they have mislead the public with the statement that ‘South Melbourne Hellas is only a minority stakeholder”. I would bet my bottom dollar that although that statement is true, the rest of the ’stakeholder’s’ would include many Greeks who are not linked with South Melbourne Hellas.

You will find that a large % of the support base will be of Greek background. Some of the more radicals will start chanting Hellas Hellas which would be ridiculous if the club was marketing itself to more than Greeks. (Of course, that brings us tback to the original point of the post. That is, who would support this new entity?). But it must be accepated that because there are so many Greeks in Melbourne, there physical (as in looks) presence will be felt.

Redb said | October 6th 2008 @ 3:00pm | Report comment

KB,

I doubt the 2nd team bid issue had anything to do with the 18k attendance, more like some fans saw it was versus Perth Glory and stayed away.

Millster said | October 6th 2008 @ 3:03pm | Report comment

Savvas even though we are arguing with you a bit its an interesting and complex point you raise. For example, just to change the landscape, with Glory going bad in WA what if the large proportion of South African expats ‘took the team on’ including attendance, investment, management, etc? How can we harness the goodwill of these large community groups with strong football traditions while at the same time avoiding ‘exclusive’ clubs and the problems of before? Its a very interesting debate especially with the onset of second clubs and therefore split supporter bases in cities. One-club one-city certainly had its merits.

Savvas Tzionis said | October 6th 2008 @ 3:06pm | Report comment

Koala Bear…are you serious? You expect people to support BOTH teams? That is crazy talk.

And people have stopped going to A-league games for various reason’s. The Hellas fans abandoning Victory theory is fascinating but highly unlikely.

The Perth games had low attendance for 2 reaons.
- They are rubbish.
- The initial shine of ‘new soccer’ has worn off. Crowds will plateau to a level above initial expectations, but below the astronomical attendane figures of the past 2/3 years

Koala Bear said | October 6th 2008 @ 3:13pm | Report comment

Millster and desilva,
I couldn’t agree with you more .. when I lived in Sydney I was a member of the Castellorzian Social Club that my deceased father was a founding member, and when I do visit on very rare occasions I make my way to Kingsford for some Greek culture .. Nonetheless, its not a question of multiculturalism or being an assimilationist. It’s about what is good for Australian Football, for now, and where it should be, heading towards the 2018 FIFA world Cup in Australia…

Sorry Savvas Tzionis, maintain you Greek links with Hellas, but at the same time support your HAL Melbourne Team Melbourne Victory or the Hearts..

Millster said | October 6th 2008 @ 3:18pm | Report comment

On your theory on the attendance, I (sadly) agree with your first point about Perth but no so much with your second.

Th J-League’s early year crowd profile is an interesting one to look at. While I don’t have the exact figures, it had 3 years of growth as a new product and then hit a mini-dip in years 4-5 where it recorded what are its lowest-ever season averages. Reasons are that the comp was no longer new, but at the same time it was still new enough that the next platforms for growth (domestic financial stability combined with growing continental and global recognition of the league) still needed a year or two to bed in. After that, growth resumed and the league prospered.

This is one of the reasons why I bang on so much about the ACL and what Adelaide is currently doing there. Its not just about one-off pride. Its also about building the next platform for the recognition and growth of our league. When people go to a HAL game in an Australian city, they will more and more know that they are seeing a group of players that are cutting it at world level. Not at the top (western Europe) of that world level admittedly, but certainly at a credible and competitive level with good results against clubs from a variety of places. That whole dynamic will attract more fans, more players, more sponsors and more expertise to the leage which is an upward-spiral recipe for gradual success.

oikee said | October 6th 2008 @ 3:19pm | Report comment

Are you glad you live in Queensland Koala Bear, and that was your best post.

dasilva said | October 6th 2008 @ 3:25pm | Report comment

I was just responding to not feeling welcome walking in to collingwoods

Is it ok to have a Vietnamese only badminton league (this does exist). Where only vietnamese ethnicity (exception of non vietnamese who have vietnamese girlfriends or boyfriends) are allowed to play. Honestly just change the nationality to white and caucasion and you’ll have a national uproar.

In any case - I probably went too far with the social clubs. However from personal experience of some of these social club. I found it isolatatory and sometimes counterproductive to national integration. I shouldn’t have put all ethnic clubs in one basket

Any way I’m signing off now. uni work to do.

Koala Bear said | October 6th 2008 @ 3:36pm | Report comment

Redb,
I won’t argue the point about the the reasons .. I don’t know Melbourne supporter’s psyche; to reasons why they turn up or why they don’t .. I shall believe you on this only occasion However, I have read that a lot of the problem is coming from the Telstra Dome allocation of seats .. It seems to be a very real concern with the Victory Supporters .. And a reason for why they are not turning up as they feel they are not being treated with proper respect.. Is that true, and I would suspect Dave would know .. ?? Are you reading Dave….???

Savvas Tzionis,
yes I do expect both teams to be supported, especially when the SFC come to town.. I am a SFC supporter and I will be supporting GC united in the HAL as well, tho my mobility is restricted a lot now but, I will be attending some GC united home matches .. Too right I will .. btw you should not underestimate the Liverpool and Everton fans, I know some Liverpudlians who did just that, now living in Australia.. (Sydney)

~~~~~~~
KB

dasilva said | October 6th 2008 @ 3:40pm | Report comment

perhaps a last thing about assimilation and multiculturalism

To me every individual has a culture of 1. As a country have to tolerate every individual differences (within moral limits) and hence by extension every individual culture (hence I’m multiculturalist). However everything that a person does is as an Australian. If I speak vietnamese, a person go to mosque, another person go to temple, another person eat certain food etc then I’ll do it as an Australian and not as a vietnamese as I’m not a citizen of Vietnam. So a person may behave differently to what is the norm, they may behave more similarly to the country of heritage then Australia and I can accept that. However in the end no matter what you do, you do it as an Australian first. You may argue there is an element of assimilation there. I don’t know.

Now I’m really signing off.

Koala Bear said | October 6th 2008 @ 4:08pm | Report comment

oikee,
let me put it this way, I’m in the right waiting room …

~~~~~~
KB

Dave said | October 6th 2008 @ 4:37pm | Report comment

No way in the world any team/club should be allowed to enter HAL with strong ethnic/religious ties to one group in our society. SM did very well for a period of time and l’m sure as more water passes under the bridge their efforts over the past 25 years will be properly acknowledged eg WCC in Brazil, bringing out to Oz high quality coaches and players, bringing through their ranks some of Australia’s best footballers. But…no way in the world should any club with strong ethnic ties be allowed. I have seen first hand the problems and it is not desirable in any sense.
FFA are correct to allow clean skins to start from scratch…now if a decent football team is put on the park football supporters will go and watch…if they bring out the Greek or Turkish or Hungarian or Scottish superstar to play great l would go and watch…but l wont watch any team that is a defacto ethnic based club…l would not watch melb Knights or SM or Preston Lions for those reasons. l will watch a club that is non ethnic and open for all to follow. If there are 400,000 Greeks in Melb then why wouldn’t the 40,000 or so who are football supporeters come and watch a good footballing team…do they need to be a Greek team before they will come and watch and if thats the case why?
MV have done a good job in harvesting a general football crowd who are ethnically, socially and gender wise extremely diverse. There is no reason a new club couldn’t do the same but they will need a point of difference, more than just the name, to differentiate them from MV. The only way this can be done is to make it geographical and hence the south-eastern suburbs base is a start. They will need to ensure one or two high profile players are involved (dont care what nationality) and hit the ground running playing with a style that is attractive (and hopefully wins some games)…not easy but has to be done. Once MV and the new team have played a derby match interest will be heightened.

Redb
Good to see you made it to the game on Sat. Were you near aisle 33? We were in row M.

Dave said | October 6th 2008 @ 4:41pm | Report comment

Just had another look at the HAL table and…the mighty MV are streaking clear of the field :). How did Sydenee go?
BTW Did you notice MV finished with 11 players on the field…there is no FFA conspiracy and we will be waiting for SFC on the 25th October

Slippery Jim said | October 6th 2008 @ 4:48pm | Report comment

There is an FFA conspiracy Dave, the FFA are out to stop Sydney from winning the toilet seat. I have started to wear my tin foil hat to all Sydney games to avoid the insidious FFA mind control I will never fly QANTAS again until we win the toilet seat again…

Millster said | October 6th 2008 @ 4:57pm | Report comment

Dave - Sydney and Qld both played lovely. 1-1 draw right at the end after Qld drew ahead with a 47 min strike to Millar. Excellent game technically.

SJ - so it was you blinding me with the reflection???

Slippery Jim said | October 6th 2008 @ 5:13pm | Report comment

Millster, the only one blinding us is Frank Lowy and his henchmen, Baron Von Buckley and Co, with their nefarious schemes to bump MV back up to first place so that they can get the crowds back at the TD. You know it’s true if Sydney can play like Arsenal but are still in second place. >:(

Millster said | October 6th 2008 @ 5:29pm | Report comment

Hehe that made me laugh! From what I saw the fact Sydney “Gunners” FC is in second place is all its own doing… last 2 games of not finishing well-built chances.

As an aside, saw on another site that Carnage was so ‘on the out’ at Sheffield that he was a rumoured potential loan signing back to the A-League. CCM was mentioned but I don’t know how I’d cope not seeing him back in the sky blue. I’ll always remember his clever run early in the game against Uwara at the SFS…

Slippery Jim said | October 6th 2008 @ 5:39pm | Report comment

Re the Carneyvore being on the outer - that’s what you get when you slag off your boss in public. Don’t be surprised to see him make a ’shock move’ on a ridiculously cheap salary to the Vics - and we all know who would be behind that…the FFFA. I wonder if you can guess what the extra ‘F’ stands for???

Koala Bear said | October 6th 2008 @ 5:42pm | Report comment

Lads,
I was amazed of the ingenuity of the FFA to avert attentions from its attempts to destroy MV’s season by using SFC as a diversionary ploy from the continuous accusations of corruption made against the Lowy Family .. Make no mistake about it .. Baron Von Buckley’s scheme may have fooled all down South .. But let me tell you up north the watchers were watching the watchers… Yes indeed, the yellow card for Mussy was beautifully executed and timed perfectly, to divert suspicion of his overly over-timed goal .. that has ultimately, for the present, has appeased the Melb Victory’s fanatical fan base of its suspicions of corruption, but have at the same time allowed SFC to stay in touch with the dummy spiters; no pun intended…

Yellow card; goal ‘90+3 S. Musialik .. Beautiful….

~~~~~~~~~
KB

Millster said | October 6th 2008 @ 5:53pm | Report comment

KB - you could even say its Musialik to my ears….

Slippery Jim said | October 6th 2008 @ 5:54pm | Report comment

Don’t you mean “the watchers were watching the watchers watching their watches” KB?

By golly, by your astute undercover intelligence on the FFFA conspiracy shows that you Queenslanders are more switched on then I imagined! Here I was thinking that you all spent most of the afternoons sunning yourself under palm trees and eating pineapples and the evenings doing whatever it is you do with Doris at the RSL, and then the mornings sleeping in and then start over again…

Millster said | October 6th 2008 @ 5:54pm | Report comment

And to SJ I’d have thought that the FFA would have been more intent on getting him to Perth. God knows that team needs a recognised Socceroo for both fan interest and on-field life support at the moment…

Dave said | October 6th 2008 @ 5:58pm | Report comment

Guys

“the watchers were watching the watchers” Sounds like a timekeepers heaven!!

Please no more of the conspiracy theories…on the 25th it will be mate against mate, friend vs…come to think of it thats been used before Anyway we will see who stands up to be counted…Bling FC or or the people’s team, perinnial underdogs, the boys from the south, the Scottish One and his band of Costa Rican interpreters will motivate and cajole this team to greatness…to show the pretenders from the north who is championship material
BTW Has anyone seen Aloisi? What happened to this former great? Needs to play in a decent team me thinx
I will be at TD and give the Bling a mighty boooooooo for us all

Slippery Jim said | October 6th 2008 @ 6:11pm | Report comment

Millster, nice line, I might use it for the title of my next article and claim all the credit/cheers. If the FFFA can be dirty cheats so can I

Re Perth, nothing can kick start a dead horse…like Tottenham this season, Perth had high hopes but can only aspire to be bottom feeders. I think we should solve the problem by declaring WA a territory of NZ, or better still selling it to them the way the Russians sold Alaska in the 1800’s. That way they can have their own two-club league and when we introduce the two new clubs next season it will be an all-Australian league with 8 clubs.

Redb said | October 6th 2008 @ 6:22pm | Report comment

Dave,

The row M info might have been helpful to know before the game! Pippinu and I made right nongs of oursleves asking every second person - Are you Dave? is that you Dave? or yelling ‘Dave’ and waiting to see if anyone turned around.

First half was spent on the bottom deck in standing room hurling uncouth jibes at the unwashed Perth Glory fans (all 6 of them) . Second half we ventured up to tier 3 aisle 33 in search of the mysterious ‘Dave’…..the echo of - is that you Dave? is still resonating around the rafters of Telstra Dome as we speak.

Millster said

By jimbo
October 6th 2008 @ 8:21am