You said Hal was compromised now by the ACL …………… interesting view …… to many the Asian Cup like the European Cup in Europe is the better prize to win.

What this means is it is no less a joy to win the local comp so if North Melbourne won the flag you still get happy and its a Sunhine lollypops and sugar coated candy drops time ……… but then to then beat the leading winners from other leagues lifts you to another level and a team you may hate you still cheer for because it is the Australian team.

I also give the public more credit most will know the difference.

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yep, but it illustrates the pecking order - - and the comparison of a single uncompromised AFL ‘competition’ vs the examples of NRL (compromised by SoO) and the HAL (compromised now by the ACL - - if only amongst the diehards as the general populous still probably has stuff all idea).

And, certainly I agree - - once ACL finishes, Ade Utd crowds should rebound………..so long as they aren’t long last on the table due to the ACL campaign.

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Millister
Personally l think paytv do a much better job of football and are prepared to spend more time on it than FTA. l believe paytv to continue televising HAL with perhaps one game per week on FTA with a highlights show. Also as we have seen of late ACL and WCC come into the bargaining process. l would certainly see FTA chasing hard to get those 2 babies in their stables…on FTA there would have been a massive viewership for AUs last couple of ACL games and likewise if they make the WCC in Japan.

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those two are pretty good reasons to begin with (and seemingly reason enough overseas that pay tv invariably wins the bidding process).

Club soccer in a ‘primary’ soccer league nation, such as Germany, Spain, Italy, England etc - - plenty of merit - - however, club soccer in Australia is like club basketball compared to the NBA - - it just doesn’t hold a candle.

Specifically for the HAL (i.e. club soccer in Australia)

However - - the other obvious element is the potentially chicken and egg argument of the overall level of interest……..and the robustness of any particular ‘home market’ or not. i.e. Even when 2 teams play out of Melbourne, they will have perhaps only 2 local derbies (depending on season structure)…..and the rest of the time each game will provide very, very limited interest to the broader community. (remember, AFL ‘community’ in Melb probably includes about 300,000 folk who have signed up as club members - - plus another 270,000 either further from Melb and around the country).

I acknowledge that the lack of regular competition over late spring and summer means there might be reasonable interest.

But - - when 1 team in all of Sydney is struggling to draw more than 12,000 people once a fortnight………it doesn’t sell well!!!! (not even as well as the Sydney Swans - - although, at various times around ‘93 they were in a similar and even worse plight).

It’s reflects to a degree that perhaps Ch.7 whilst deliberately sitting on the NSL - - would have been mad to have actually run with it. And given that Ch.7 for example in the Aust Footy states had the VFL on during winter - - they would have been doubly mad to shunt the VFL for the NSL………..based on crowds of 2000 or so.

I know crowds are only so great a gauge of interest………..but………..they are perhaps the most obvious.

btw - Ade Utd crowds have perhaps damned the HAL sufficiently of late - - making a clear statement to sponsors and potential broadcasters that the ACL is the bigger event by some way - - in their minds - - than the regular HAL season. The soccer fanbase is speaking………clearly………..unequivocally…….

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Socceroos okay - - but they are irregular, both of match schedules and time zones - - - and the main benefit would be re the chances of a FIFA WC top 32 placing. how much can that be worth to prop up the HAL??? Club soccer is not FTA fodder.

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I cant believe what you just said re: Packer being told to get lost by the NSL?????

Bloody hell, and I thought the muppets running NSW Rugby were bad.

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7 will never in the foreseeable future be given the broadcast rights ………. just before your two hard on 9.

Just after world series cricket none other than Kerry Packer approached the then NSL management he wanted to run a 10 team national comp broadcast live across Australia. NSL to run it, pick players run the international appoint coaches ………. only thing Kerry wanted was to create ten new teams and handle all the marketing ……. the money on offer was more than was being paid to RL………. guess what they told Kerry to get F ……. they could do a better deal. ……………Beggars disbelief doesn’t it Ahhhhhhhh to have those old NSL managers back in charge. So football not only made itself a large target with the ethnic clubs but boy did they make some dumb decisions ………. So 7 agree rule out……..but 9 & 10 are OK

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Also much as I hail last night’s result (a semi win is a semi win, and one cannot second guess how the other team got there) I think we all know that the clubs and leagues that we need to measure ourselves against in Asia are Japan, and to a lesser extent Korea. Now I might be wrong in writing off the Uzbeki league and it sure seems like they have a willingness to pay for big talent, but my idea of an achievable but stretch goal for HAL would be to aim to match it consistently (in off-field aspects as well as in results and play) with J-League clubs.

But coming back to my first para, if we can get that value and if we can extract decent play from a financially hobbled situation, imagine what we might do if that salary cap were relaxed…. even just a bit…

PS#1: never thought of the relative talent pool between AFL and HAL. Its not the sort of comparison that my brain can wrap itself around. I guess on the one hand the AFL keeps the very best in the game, though of a smaller pool and without any way of testing absolute standards. On the other the HAL draws from a global pool, but not the best of that pool, but can make standard comparisons between countries due to competitive international club fixtures such as ACL. Not even going to try and make a call!

PS#2: On quality of sport from a spectator point of view we are mainly talking about entertainment value. Things like how close the game is and whether there are any spectacular moments in it. I’m sure you and I have both absolutely loved all sorts of different amateur games of various codes and sports due to them being close and fun. But at the same time as we love it, we know its not real quality. I guess sitting as part of my overall views on these code issues is the question as to which of the codes gives us that ability to compare and assess whether our home competition is the real deal, or rather the more amateurish competitive scrabble in the park… For some of the codes I just don’t have that external reference point. But yes from a spectator point of view both the elite stuff and the park game can be absolutely enthralling and quality doesn’t have to have much to do with that entertainment value.

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I would only give it to Channel 10 (or SBS but I’ll doubt that would happen) as they have been quite respectful to the game in terms of news coverage.

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By football standards we have but by Australian acceptance we have not.

FTA media is still a very powerful provider of information/ stories / mood setting agendas in Australia …….. that we get so little by comprassion to what we do has many reasons behind it ……… I see it as simple if a FTA pays FFA 600 million for a five year FTA media deal things will change overnight …………… for that media deal to be signed football has to earn the right to be offered that deal.

TO date football has not been able to commard the media respect to get that deal ……….. it is very close to having the respect now and as I understand it ……… both 9 & 10 have approached Foxs about Socceroos matches and 9 wants a saturday night A-League match, 10 wants a Friday night & saturday night match. Fox have the rights and Foxs are playing hard ball as is their right …………. 7, 9 & 10 by promoting the codes they pay for are doing the same thing protecting a media asset they own other codes Basketball / Union have failed union only gets the odd test match on 7. Football need to past the test of time that football will be still standing in 4 years with a 12 or 14 team comp then overnight things will change………. if the Bruce Gordon of WIN gets involved it will happen a bit sooner.

The big change will come two media deals away say ten years from now, by then the A & B leagues in place, the womens league, a number of World / AsianCups & Olympics will have passed, plus five years on FTA ………so in the mean time hang in there go to matches and hope / pray Obie One can get football to the next media deal ……..

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Maybe it also comes down to what most Australians enjoy watching as a sport. What about the qulaity of the sport from a spectator’s point of view.

There are many reasons the AFL has not progressed around the world, league, gridiron, union for that matter as well, they are however very popular in their respective patches.

From Midfielder is suggesting you dont have to be a quality team to do well anyway!

Redb

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So even putting aside my code-v-code arguments about what are bigger / more important and just arguing for parity… do the Socceroos get the same nation-wide treatment as the cricket team, or the Kangaroos or the Wallabies? Across the board not only the days before and after a big game? And do our ACL representatives get the same treatment as (thinking of the only real parallel, though not perfect) the Super 14 teams?

For mine we have a set of club and country competitions which should see us at the very head of the table yet we are still confined to the kiddies seat at the end. To me that smacks at best of ignorant parochialism and at worst of outright protectionism on the part of our media.

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You haven’t answered the question.

Compare the relative strenghts of HAL and AFL in terms of talent playing in the respective competitions.

We may disagree, but for arguments sake lets say the talent playing Aussie Rules and futbol is about equal in this country.

Considering the amount of Australians playing overseas the cream of the best futbol talent is overseas not in the A League although they are topped up by weaker overseas players. The salary cap at around $2M for the HAL would indicate the player quality is low by Asian stadards with no salary cap restrictions. (happy to be corrected if a salary cap does exist)

Thus my question of how good are these ACL clubs if an undermanned Aussie HAL team can beat them 3 nil is valid IMO. Whilst Midfielder points to defence, that would imply a scrappy one nil victory against I assume a vastly superior opponent to win 3 nil suggest the quality is not there.

Redb

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3-0 is a thumping in anyones books…from what I understand, Adelaide were the better team and clearly fitter and deserved their victory. Its is not an example of a better team being outplayed, the better team won and won comfortably.

I admit to being ignorant of the Uzbekistani league and how strong it is, and whilst Uzbekistan is a developing nation, futbol is by far and away the main item on the sporting menu and it has a higher population than Australia, whereas Adelaide Utd operates in a national league where the league it is playing it is not the dominant sporting league and where the clubs have a salary cap ….the first and obvious conclusion is that the Uzbeks dont travel too well (which bodes well for the Socceroos). Secondly, maybe the Uzbek league is an inferior league to the A-league?

Ill wait till the second leg is played before Il attempt to answer the second question.

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To Redb - you are touching on the very point. You ask “how strong?”… well how do you propose to answer that question if not by a continental tournament of champion teams? Adelaide is currently showing itself to be stronger than teams with 10 times its budget and from nations in which football has a longer and stronger following. You cannot validly answer your own question without exactly this sort of a competition format.

On your “underlying issue about quality” I thoroughly disagree. Ingrained local culture and media saturation and artificially-sustained competitiveness between clubs are much stronger determinants. On “quality” fundamentals you cannot explain why AFL would get more fans than any other code; indeed it is the code with the LEAST external validation of its quality due to total lack of international context. And on fickleness you sink your own views with the line “if they were travelling well” (i.e. fair weather support) and also by coming back to those hyped-up so-called blockbuster game crowds for your reference point. MC can probably pull out the stats game by game from somewhere but I’d have thought the AFL non-finals season average across all games in Melbourne was closer to 50000 than to 70000. And to make a better again comparison to Adelaide United, what are the averages for Power in SA, for Dockers in WA, for Sydney in Sydney or Brisbane in Brisbane?

Do you understand though the most basic logical point that you cannot launch an argument on quality from the perspective of a code with absolutely no reference points, and with a set of administrative regulations focused so evidently on maintaining internal parity/competitiveness between seasons at the expense of absolute standards (which of course is essential for survival of such an insular code). Its not a dig at AFL. It’s basic rational logical thinking. Same would apply in any sport, in business and in all walks of life.

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I never said Adelaide played crap. Just that they can play better. I agree that Adelaide United and Mariners was a great match. I agree that Adelaide progressing in the ACL is a great romantic sporting achievement. I also agree that this is a young competition that we can’t expect beautiful football for every match and EPL standard football from the get go. I also agree that A-league is not bad league. Why on earth would I be supporting A-league if I thought it was crap? Not once have I ever tried to compare Australia with Europe. I mention some flaws how Australia has sometimes too physical and the referees are too lenient on dirty play but not once have I ever said a-league is crap or put down A-league by comparing it with any other country.

However what I do like to see is aspiration to not just win but aspiration to develop the way we play football as well. I know Adelaide and A-league are not even half way there in fulfilling their potential. So what I liked to see is progress in the right way. In any case I would say that Adelaide and the A-league (i think all of the clubs) has made progress and the standard of football is much better now then 4 years ago and I expect the same 4 years in the future. As the crowds are decreasing the standard of football is improving and perhaps never been higher in the short A-league history which is rather ironic.

Adelaide performance against Kashima Antlers show that they can win against good opposition playing good football. It’s a step in the right direction. Adelaide against Bunyodkor showed a defensively resilient side that restrict opposite to only 1 shot on goal. It also show some good passing football to score the 3 goals. Nevertheless Adelaide play direct football for the most of the match. That’s fine, you can’t expect to play ultra stylish football every match. I’m just hoping that Adelaide are aiming and aspiring to play less like that in the future. Like I said all I want is for Football to be number 1 sport in the country and for that to happen there’s need to be an equal consideration of results and style (or at least 60-40% consideration).

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You said ” Most Aussies have never heard of many of these ACL clubs.” ………. agree but if the media told us about them they would.

I accept the current state of play ………football has not earnt its place at the table yet ……… but is getting close and when it does the coverage will change.

Do I think commercials networks protect their assets, to increase shareholder wealth, I think so. ………. Will be interesting when 9 or 10 get football FTA to see the change in coverage.

Must get back to work ….. clients want their work done.

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One of the inherent weaknesses of futbol as a spectator sport is its defensive nature.

Redb

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Thank you ………. thank you ………… you have asked the question that does separate football from other codes.

You said ” have to ask you, how strong must the Asian sides be if they can get beaten by an undermanned Aust based team in the A League?”

Every year somewhere in football a team does this against all the odds ……… the nature of football allows this ……. many see it as a weakness but as a player and a supporter you can dream ……… Imagine if the Woy Woy (Central coast town) local park team in a non AFL area beat the Hawks ……… in AFL it could never happen ………. In Football it does …. Greece won a European Cup, the FA cup in England has been won by sides two divisions removed from the top division ……… the nature of the game allows it to happen AU could be the team this year.

As an Aside in a semi final of the FA cup about 4 or 5 years back a 6th division team played Man U and lost but 2 nil only . Stack your defence and hit on the break is how its done, the better team needs to break down the defence to win and in doing so open themselves up at the back ……… this is how AU is playing ………. hitting on the break and holding on in defence.

You can cheer your defence and be happy that you have out played a much better team …………

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You cant keep trotting out that memo from Ch 7 thinking it pervades the network on a daily basis. I agree with TT, if it was Sydney (which the morning shows come) then it would have been more widely reported.

The A League needs to stand on its own two feet and games between Australian cities (that we can relate to) should be the priority. As you admit they aren’t connecting very well. Crwoos are dropping for Australian club games.

Most Aussies have never heard of many of these ACL clubs. The nature of ACL is that not only will it be likely that different HAL clubs get involved (probably good as it is sharing it around, but also means the interest drops away when clubs dont make it) but also the Asian clubs will come and go. These ACL games are still foreign and old soccer like. (now dont whack the racist stick) I’m talking about how the Aussie media and public can relate to these clubs.

Redb

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Im sure that if it had been Sydney FC instead of Adelaide, it would have been big news in Sydney - in the bloody Telecrap, they even used to have a weekly liftout during the off-season called “Football Fever”. The fact is it was a team from Adelaide, not a national team, playing against a club which most Australians wouldn’t recognise from a country which has yet to establish itself as a power on the world futbol stage.

I agree that the Telecrap and Channel 9 protect the NRL big time, but futbol is not being discriminated against. For years, SBS has had futbol as it strength and done a great job of promoting it, and generally it has done a very good job at reporting it, in fact SBS has probably shown more futbol than Channel 9 has shown NRL!

You make a point about “anybody serious about sport” - if someone was that serious about sport, they would probably look at getting pay TV and watch the game as it was on live or using the greatest information-sharing device ever created, the internet. I am serious about watching my rugby, so I went out and got paytv to watch the rugby world cup and Super 14.

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Redb

My post on the media was a reflection of what and how it was reported with the closing remark ” still a long way to go to get media coverage ” ……. some words I used detailing the coverage showed my frustration. Also I agreed with your earlier post on the coverage some time back.

My point is the existing networks and those in them for historical reasons are closer to the more traditional codes and we football folk still have a long way to go especially when 7 & 9 have invested so much in those codes ……… take the Melbourne Cup the channel who has it runs the cup from about 10:00 in the morning till an hour after it finished and devote huge amounts of news broadcast times to it in the lead up, Bathurst is the same.

But what does frustrate me is that a real David V Goliath, battle has taken place and if AU get through the audience for the final against the Japanese and across Asia will be about 400 million. If an Australian was involved in cake baking contest with this kinda of audience and so much stacked against the Aussie it would be at the top of most news reports ……. Because its football …………Naaaaaa lets no go there …….. remember the email………… the commercial networks act in a manner to increase shareholder wealth and in what ever way possible; -existing assets (future income streams) need to be protected.

So back to my original post we still have a long way to go to get media coverage simply fact (electronic in particular, newspapers are improving and have started to change) ……… Assuming Obie One & BB can hold it all together the next media deal will change this as football will be on a free to air network with all that brings in addition to broadcasting the match.

Dasilva

Cannot agree your thing about style ……….. look AU look like getting through to the finals of the ACL they don’t play crap ………. I watched the AU V Mariners last Friday night at a pub in Newcastle, one bloke after and 20 minutes asked what European country was this from and was quite shocked when everybody told him it was two Australian teams. ………… As I have said to you before its not champions league or EPL standard ……… but its better than we have ever had in Australia and is not that bad its in its fourth year and is improving all the time on budgets so small by even Australian standards read AFL / NRL / Union …never mind what football gets overseas.

The issue not talked about is the FFA have failed aside from Newcastle & the Mariners to connect to the broader football community ……….. this is within their control and the sooner they start to do it the better for football.

As an Aside Demark, Germany, Austria, Swiss, don’t play half bad neither and play very similar games to the A-League.

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I have to ask you, how strong must the Asian sides be if they can get beaten by an undermanned Aust based team in the A League?

You have implied many times the salary cap reduces the talent available in the A League teams. If all of Australia’s best players were running around in the A League and they beat an Asian club that would be more of an achievement. How strong are these clubs from Asia if AU (ranked about 3-4 this year on the HAL table) can beat them 3 nil playing unattractive futbol?

Ok, re fickleness, if an AFL team like say Hawthorn this year was travelling well the support would be strong every time they turned out. There are ten AFL Melb clubs, support is shared amongst them in varying degrees. The jump to the Grand Final crowd of 100,000 is not that great when you consider the MCG got crowds of 90,000, 85,000 many 70,000+ for home and away club games. I agreed with TT that the money issue is a factor, but there is an underlying issue about quality.

If these ACL clubs are so strong how could an Adelaide beat them - especially when you factor in that futbol is much more of technical game, that is less guts and determination.

Redb

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For the record (and it is fast becoming a broken record) I enjoy AFL, League, Rugby, Gridiron, Ice Hockey and Baseball and would not want any of those sports to go away. I’m not calling for anyone to ‘pack up their oranges and dissapear’ as you say. And I would be sad if they did. I am all for diversity in sports. Comprehende?

My discussions are philosophical and are based on the fact that in structural terms, in management terms, in development dynamics, in externally-validated global comeptition there are differences and that the imperatives for the evolution of small codes are quite apart from the imperatives for the evolution of a global game.

On your most recent post, yes it is strange and sad that Sydney and Melbourne media did not report this internationally important victory. To say ‘this is how it is’, when the reality is blatant pandering and protectionism to our own two globally insignificant domestic codes, is not good enough to anyone who is serious about sport and has some perspective and world view.

On the fickleness of crowds do you find it equally alarming that the MCG can be half full (35-50K) for a normal season fixture between Melbourne AFL clubs - apart from overhyped blockbusters that is - yet 100K full for a major final? The difference there is 50K or more. Or that in the NRL there are often only 15000 to season matches yet double that to the semis and 80K to the GF? Is it equally a problem to the AFL and NRL that routine season matches are evidently not regarded as equal in importance to a final or international by fans of those codes? And do those fans deserve to be labelled as fickle? Of course that argument is horseshit because fans in each case are simply discriminating between a game that is routine and one that holds more significance or uniqueness.

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