By Greg Buckle
October 7th 2008 @ 12:58am
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Warne keeps Steve Waugh outside his top 25
Merv Hughes and Mark Waugh were handy cricketers but did they really hold a candle to Mark’s twin brother, the former Australian skipper Steve Waugh?
More cricket
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Steve’s former vice-captain Shane Warne has re-opened the debate over Waugh’s status in the game with a new book to be launched in London tomorrow titled “Shane Warne’s Century”.
The book is an extended version of the former Test world record-holder’s list of 50 best players which appeared in London newspaper The Times last year.
And again the former Test leg-spinner has ranked Steve Waugh at No.26. Warne has preferred his fellow Victorian Hughes (18th) and another of Warne’s good buddies Mark Waugh (ninth).
Warne’s first Test captain Allan Border is his highest-ranked Australian at No.4 behind West Indians Curtly Ambrose and Brian Lara and Indian batsman Sachin Tendulkar, who is No.1.
Warne’s long-time bowling partner Glenn McGrath is ranked fifth.
The five Australians in Warne’s top 10 players also include wicketkeeper Ian Healy (10th) and current skipper Ricky Ponting (eighth).
The puzzling decision last year to rank 27-Test veteran Darren Lehmann at No.25 - one spot above Steve Waugh - has been revised with Lehmann demoted to 32nd.
Warne has done his best to fend off criticism over his treatment of Waugh.
“When I ranked Steve Waugh somewhere in the 20s for my list in The Times, it caused a bit of a stir in Australia, though Waugh himself was fine,” Warne wrote in The Times.
“People tried to suggest there was a problem between us when in actual fact we are friends. They also accused me of jealousy because he succeeded Mark Taylor as captain and I was appointed vice-captain.
“He was a tough, uncompromising player whose captaincy was all about leading by example. We had incredible success under his leadership.”
But Warne, a gambler and card-player, disagreed with Waugh on tactics.
“Waugh took a more conservative approach, and he wasn’t a big risk taker. You could see that in the way he batted,” Warne said.
“Tugga was a wonderful cricketer, who I think got the best out of himself, and that’s all anyone can ask.
“His position in Australian cricketing history is assured …”
Warne’s list from among cricketers whom he had played with or against includes the fiery pairing of South African captain Graeme Smith (44) and ex-Sri Lankan skipper Arjuna Ranatunga (93).
Smith was friendly to Warne during their spell in Jaipur this year as Indian Premier League team-mates.
“We had a laugh and a joke about the things we had said in the past,” Warne said.
“I know he has a few regrets, but, all credit to him, he sees the funny side.”
Warne said he had included Ranatunga “through gritted teeth”.
“When I picked my top 50 for The Times, there were a few accusations that I’d gone for my mates instead of being objective,” he said.
“Well, I hope this choice ends that criticism once and for all, because everybody knows that I don’t like Ranatunga.”
Warne also paid tribute to feisty Indian batsman Sourav Ganguly (96th).
“But he did have the knack of rubbing up opponents (and even teammates when he went to Lancashire) the wrong way without seeming to try very hard,” Warne said.
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dasilva said | October 7th 2008 @ 6:31am | Report comment
When the initial list came out for top 50 players. The criticism he gave Steve Waugh that he was defensive and doesn’t win matches but only save matches could have easily applied to Rahul Dravid who he rated higher and had Warne saying although he wasn’t flashy he had determination, fighting spirit and ability to concentrate and last for a very long period of time. Saying you wonder if its possible to get him out when his mind is set.
I don’t pretend to know what issues are between Waugh and warne but it does seem obvious that there was something between them.
LK said | October 7th 2008 @ 7:57am | Report comment
In Steve Waugh’s first series as capt, in the West Indies, he dropped Shane Warne for MacGilla Gorilla. Must have been a tough one for an egomaniac like Warne to swallow, he still seems to be settling scores. These lists are a bit of a laugh really, they say more Warne than they do about any cricketer in his top 50 or 100 or whatever.
Rickety Knees said | October 7th 2008 @ 3:00pm | Report comment
In military speak, men are accorded the highest honour when they talk about being happy to share a fighting pit with a particular man, meaning that they admire courage under fire and a never say die attitude. I know who I would prefer to have next to me when the hot lead is flying around the ears and its not Warne!
Steve Waugh is the best warrior captain Australian Cricket has had and would be the first person that I would pick in my team.
Redb said | October 7th 2008 @ 3:06pm | Report comment
no way, Allan Border beats Steve Waugh hands down IMO.
Redb
True Tah said | October 7th 2008 @ 3:07pm | Report comment
Rickety Knees,
if its military talk and Waugh and Warne were in the trenches, my money would be on Warne in the infirmary trying to get it on hot and heavy with the nurse!
Rickety Knees said | October 7th 2008 @ 3:16pm | Report comment
TT - Warne would’ve got a VC if it came down to firing his weapon!
Rickety Knees said | October 7th 2008 @ 3:20pm | Report comment
Sorry RedB - Captain Grumpy did’nt have the man management skills that Tugga has, he always managed to get the best out of his players. Grumpy only knew one way - that was to intimidate.
sheek said | October 7th 2008 @ 4:56pm | Report comment
Some interesting comments here.
Yes, Warne does have an axe to grind with Steve Waugh. And yes, it does go back to 1999. Make that a double whammy. Waugh beat Warne to the captaincy, which Warne felt he had a chance of inheriting. Some background here.
Mark Taylor retired after the Ashes tests of 1998-99. Steve Waugh was the inheritor. Warne was returning from shoulder surgery, & wasn’t fully fit. However, before Waugh could assume the captaincy, he himself missed most of the one dayers through injury, with Warne subbing. Warne did a fantastic job, with 2 high profile ex-test captains - Benaud & Ian Chappell - suggesting he wouldn’t disappoint as fulltime national captain.
I think this praise went to Warne’s head, but the board stuck with Waugh as captain for the Windies tour, & thereafter. Waugh dropped Warne from the last test team, & it was justified, because Warne still wasn’t fully fit or on top of his game. Hence, Warne having an axe to grind.
As for Waugh vs Border, I would go for Waugh, who was as mentally tough as Border, but a more perceptive captain, & with a great appreciation of the history & tradition of Australian cricket. It was Waugh, under Border & then Taylor, who suggested players wear the baggy green for the beginning of each innings or day in the field.
Border was the right man for desperate times - a pragmatic, no-nonsense, lead from the front leader, but he was no natural. That said, Australian cricket owes him the earth. I would happily go into the trenches with either man.
Warne is a shallow-minded wuss. But he could bowl leg spin okay!!!!!
Rowdy said | October 7th 2008 @ 7:16pm | Report comment
AB was probably the best captain Aus ever had - he was responsible more than anyone for pulling them out of the mire in the 80s; Taylor (fine captain) and Waugh just inherited what AB had built. Add to that Waugh’s achievement in dragging the standards of behaviour on the pitch to new depths, which the Aus team are only starting to climb out of with the retirement of noted slackjawed gobs like McGrath, and he should count himself lucky to be rated as high as 26. Didn’t he also start this teary-eyed worship of the *gulp* Baggy Green - there’s a difference between respect for the game’s traditions and a maudlin obsession with some of its symbols.
Redb said | October 7th 2008 @ 8:14pm | Report comment
This thing about Warne’s book rating of S Waugh is a NSW thing only, no-one else cares.
that aside, Ricketty,
You said “courage under fire and a never say die attitude” - as rowdy alludes, Border battled the Poms on his own, he fought more rear guard actions than I’ve had hot breakfasts. Waugh batted at 5-6 most of his career, took a long time to get a ton and whilst he finished his career in deserved glory he also captained one the great cricket teams Australia has produced.
AB for me. (actually named one of my boats after the great Aussie battler)
Redb
sheek said | October 7th 2008 @ 9:25pm | Report comment
Redb/Rowdy,
There’s a saying, “it’s hard getting to the top, harder staying there”. Border lifted the Aussies from rock-bottom to near the top. Let’s face it, when Border took over from the teary Hughes, the only way fro Aussie cricket to go, was up.
Then Taylor took Australia to the top after they beat the Windies in 1995. But teams under Taylor had a terrible habit of losing ‘dead’ tests. Waugh took the team higher still, eliminating the bad habit of losing ‘dead’ tests.
Now Ponting has kept the Aussies at the top, the hiccup of 2005 aside. But then again, Punter & his team rose to the challenge of that series defeat.
Anyone who has played competitive team sport knows the hunger that goes into climbing the mountain. Once the prize has been captured, it’s difficult keeping everyone focused to remain hungry. Put another way again, united in snaring the prize, divided in sharing the spoils.
So the efforts of Waugh & Ponting to keep the Aussies at the top, is highly commendable, & not to be taken for granted. I’m not an overly great fan of Waugh myself, but I won’t allow personal feelings to get in the way of his extraordinary achievements.
I’m convinced some of you guys are allowing your personal prejudice to influence your thinking. Just be thankful for the fact Border, Taylor, Waugh, Ponting & Warne are all Aussies.
Westy said | October 7th 2008 @ 9:26pm | Report comment
Warne was a genius as a spinner and a brilliant tactician . He just never could not get over the fact he was not selected as the Australian captain because he was a prize prick as a human being and team member.. Know this Warne has never forgiven this decision. Steve Waugh is a constant reminder that the Australian Selectors especially a fellow leg spinner had a very good understanding of his maturity and personality. They got it right. Waugh’s denigration is just a consequence.
Westy said | October 7th 2008 @ 9:40pm | Report comment
Where Warne is such a nasty piece of work is to exclude Gilchrist. He hates the guy.Healy to his great credit has said this is unfortunate. Gilchrist reached heights as a keeper all rounder that he could not . Any decision not to do this just speaks volumes for the petulent nature of this list. As much as I love Merv …. dear me ….No 18 !
ThelmaWrites said | October 8th 2008 @ 1:44am | Report comment
“Our Peerless Captain” was the headline in a Sunday paper, reporting how Steve batted the Aussies out of trouble in their Super Six match (the remaining six) in the 1999 Cricket World Cup, that enabled them to meet South Africa again in the semi-final.
Rowdy said | October 8th 2008 @ 2:23am | Report comment
Sheek,
you’re right, I’m letting my dislike of the man and the behaviour he encouraged to affect my opinion of him as a player; he was a terrific battler at 6 and 7, and just about the last man the opposition would want to see walking onto the pitch at 4 or 5 down. However, I regard AB as having carried far more of a load (i.e. the whole team) during the 80s, and whilst Waugh may have been more aggressive in his decision-making, he had the biowlers to do it, which AB didn’t.
As an Englishman to my sprigs, I’d far rather AB had been English than Steve Waugh.
dasilva said | October 8th 2008 @ 3:13am | Report comment
As a batsman I would rate Steve Waugh as a better batsman then Ricky Ponting. Ponting would be number 4 after Tendulkar, Lara and Waugh as the batmans of 90-00’s
I believe modern day average a hugely inflated and at least 10 runs higher then what they are worth as a player. In the 90′’s only 3-4 players average 50 in a tough era for batting. From 2000 onwards series of great bowlers either A) retired or B) should have retired. Players like Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Alan Donald, Shaun Pollack, Ian Bishop, Walsh and Ambrose. Ponting in the 90’s average about 40. An excellent player but not world class. from 2000 onwards he average now rose to 60. Is this because he improve as a player or because he played against inferior balling attack on flatter pitches. I believe a combination of both but you can’t disregard that the bowling attack during the 00’s of every nation was weaker then what they were in the 90’s and were played on flatter pitches. You are now having many players with 50+ average and a lot of them you can’t call legends of the game.
if he had to face those bowlers at their peak like Lara, Tendulkar or Waugh done in the past than I believe Ponting current average would have been around 45-50 instead of this astronomical 60.
Waugh vs Border - I haven’t seen much of Border. so I won’t comment on that debate.
So for Warne to place Steve Waugh 26 when he should be at minimum a top 10 player just show how petty he becomes.
Redb said | October 8th 2008 @ 7:21am | Report comment
Sheek,
As an avid cricket fan from the mid 1970s to the late 1990s I think Border’s efforts when WSC ripped the Australian team apart leaving the up and coming Border to battle Brierley’s almost full strength English team crica 1978-79 almost single handledly, wins more praise from me than Waugh’s efforts.
I’ve always liked S Waugh I remember fondly listening to the 1989 Ashes battle in England when he got his 150 not out, however good his deeds were, Border outshone him for sheer grit and determination IMO.
Technicially, give me M Waugh or G Chappell any day.
Redb
sheek said | October 8th 2008 @ 8:27am | Report comment
Redb,
I’m also a fan of G.Chappell & M.Waugh for the beauty of their batting. I admire S.Waugh & Border for their gutsiness. A good team requires both types, perhaps 4 attacking batsmen, & 2 rocks to steady things.
My top favourite of each type would be Walters & I.Chappell. That’s just personal taste.
Redb said | October 8th 2008 @ 8:43am | Report comment
Sheek,
A stroll down memory lane.
“Lillee’s pounding down like a machine
Pascoe’s making divots in the green
Marshy’s taking wickets
Hooksey’s clearing pickets
And the Chappells’ eyes have got that killer gleam
Mr Walker’s playing havoc with the bats
Redpath, it’s good to see you back
Lairdie’s making runs
Dougie’s chewing gum
and Gilmour’s wielding willow like an axe”
Redb
Rickety Knees said | October 8th 2008 @ 9:41am | Report comment
Thanks Redb - does bring back memories. For mine it was my first test match at the SCG - Australia v South Africa in January 1964. Benaud 96 and GD McKenzie 75 went the slog for I think the 8th wicket. It was a memory that I will never forget.
I rate both Waugh and Border as amongst the best bats that I have seen and both would be first picks in my team - but I would have Waugh as the skipper. I also acknowledge the profound charity work that Waugh is doing and credit him with the atitudunal change of the Australian team in embracing India and finally be able to win over there. In his retirement his legend has grown.
As for Warne - a great cricketer ……. can’t think anything else good to say about him.
sheek said | October 8th 2008 @ 9:45am | Report comment
Redb,
Those were the days! 1977-79, WSC, I was in my early 20s, at uni, no responsibility - sun, surf, social n sex. Then the 80s arrived, & I had to grow up!
sheek said | October 8th 2008 @ 9:57am | Report comment
Ricketty,
For what it’s worth, I’ve been following cricket since the late 60s. If I had to pick an Aussie team from 1968-2008, the past 40 years, it would be as follows:
Matt Hayden
Bob Simpson
Ricky Ponting
Greg Chappell
Allan Border(vc)
Steve Waugh(c)
Adam Gichrist(k)
Shane Warne
Dennis Lillee
Jeff Thomson
Glenn McGrath
Doug Walters(12th)
Backups:
Justin Langer
Craig McDermott
Ashley Mallett
Ian Healy(2k)
The team basically piacks itself. Mark Taylor not quite up there, nor Ian Chappell, nor Mark Waugh, nor Rod Marsh, nor Merv Hughes, nor Bill Lawry.
By best Rest of the World team, 1968-2008:
Barry Richards (South Africa)
Sunil Gavaskar (India)
Viv Richards (West Indies)
Sachin Tendulkar (India)
Graeme Pollock (South Africa)
Gary Sobers (West Indies -vc)
Imran Khan (Pakistan - c)
Alan Knott (England -k)
Malcolm Marshall (West Indies)
Ricahrd Hadlee (New Zealand)
Murali Muralitharan (Sri Lanka)
Brian Lara (West Indies - 12th)
Backups:
Ian Botham (England)
Mike Procter (South Africa)
Curtley Ambrose (West Indies)
Bishen Bedi (India)
Bob Taylor (England - 2k)
Redb said | October 8th 2008 @ 10:02am | Report comment
Ricketty & sheek,
My idol was Dennis Lillee. I got to see him break the world record for test wickets in 1981 at the MCG against the Windies. Many claim to be have been there but I was there all fresh faced and pimply.
https://www.thefanatics.com/corp/uploaded_images/1100_lillee4.jpg
Redb
Redb said | October 8th 2008 @ 10:05am | Report comment
Sheek,
Pretty good team. The middle order can play a bit.
Redb
Rickety Knees said | October 8th 2008 @ 10:13am | Report comment
Sheek - no argument mate. That’s on the money for me.
Darryl said | October 8th 2008 @ 11:46am | Report comment
Nice team’s Sheek, although I’d probably have Akram and Ambrose in my world team assuming Akram didn’t have a few bucks riding on the result.
JohnB said | October 8th 2008 @ 12:51pm | Report comment
Sheek - good Australian side. Not sure about Waugh as captain - would be nice to squeeze Ian Chappell in as captain, but accept he’s not quite there with the bat compared to the others. I’d probably go with Border myself. The first iteration of Bobby Simpson just finished before I started watching cricket so I’d have to accept your view he’s in front of blokes like Langer, McCosker, Redpath, Boon and Taylor. Boy, that world team’s hard to pick. Any team you can realistically leave Lara and Ambrose out of (and with Greenidge, Haynes, Holding and Garner not even rating a mention) has a fair bit going for it.
To get back to the original topic - interesting to look at Warne’s top 25 with a view to seeing which ones Waugh S. should go in front of. it’s a bit distorted of course because it’s not the top 25 batsmen, and so you have 15 straight out batsmen (counting Flower,Sangakarra and Kallis in that category) in the top 25 - in descending order Tendulkar, Lara, Border, Ponting, Waugh M, Taylor, Gooch, Hayden, Kallis, de Silva, Dravid, Boon, Crowe, Sangakarra, Flower. 15 out of 25 seems a reasonable proportion in a list like this it seems to me. I think you can say Tendulkar, Lara and Ponting are a class above the rest, with de Silva, Border, Crowe and Sangakarra in the next group, Waugh S, Taylor, Gooch, Hayden, Kallis and Dravid in the next group, and Boon, Flower and Waugh M bringing up the rear (judged purely on batting). What position you put individuals in within those groups starts to come back to what else they do, questions of style, personal preference etc). So yes Waugh S. does seem a bit low, but maybe not by that much.
sheek said | October 8th 2008 @ 3:11pm | Report comment
JohnB,
Agreed. If I picked my favourite XI, as oppossed to best XI, Chappelli would be my captain.
Redb,
I also loved DKL. I remember the test against the Windies boxing day 1981. I can’t remember if that was the same test he broke Lance Gibbs world record (then 309 wickets). Probably was. At any rate, on a diabolical wicket, the Aussies were dismissed for 198, with Kim Hughes playing an awesome innings of 100 not out.
There was about 30 minutes to stumps. Lillee dismissed Greenidge & nightwatchman Croft, while Alderman dismissed Haynes. Then off the very last ball of the day, Lillee bowled Viv Richards off an inside edge. The crowd screamed for what seemed like an eternity.
A special moment in a very special day.
ThelmaWrites said | October 9th 2008 @ 9:32pm | Report comment
Off field, Steve Waugh should be credited for his behind-the-scenes efforts in bringing harmony into the Australian side, even before he was chosen as captain. As a consequence of the unhappy reception he got from his teammates early on in his career for Australia, when he was not batting well, and his lonely times at Somerset, he invested a lot of his energy into organizing activities for the team members when on tour: His efforts in getting the guys to go to dinner somewhere other than in the hotel, or to climb Table Mountain, or to visit castles (”When you’ve seen one castle, you’ve seen them all” - attributed to Mark Waugh) eventually bore fruit.