I’d put Giteau at inside center and Mortlock at outside center, only because having played for the Brumbies together (before Giteau left for Perth, right?), I assume they have better communication. So when the backline has to scramble back in defense, they decide between themselves which player they will take out. Tim Horan and Jason Little (”the Bobbsy Twins”)were outstanding in this regard. I remember the Wallaby tour in, I think, 1993. (Because Garrick Morgan and Warwick Waugh (”the man mountains”) went on that tour, and Garrick got sent off in Munster.) In the Wales match, the two (Horan and Little) had such great communication that Euan Evans and the newie wing Proctor couldn’t get through.

This leads us to problem of Ryan Cross. On the basis of his game in the Brisbane Bledisloe, he doesn’t deserve to be on the bench. I’d let Giteau and Mortlock remain the run-on centers, with Cross coming off the bench in the second half. But sooner rather than later, Mortlock has to retire and Ryan Cross replace him.

Giteau and Cross have both played for Western Force, so I hope they can combine well too.

All for now. Cheers.

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Realistically however, Glen Jackson will probably be around the top 5 simply because he’s such an accurate kicker and Saracens play a good brand of rugby. Hewat and James are unlikely to be holding firm over the long-haul simply because they are quite innacurate - although it should be noted that Toby Flood has already missed 15 kicks at goal, I believe. Andy Goode has left to play in France and Cipriani will be absent for quite a few games so had Nick Evans been fit he would have a great chance of leading the line.

mcxd, just because I’m Irish I’d like to be a bet anally retentative here … Andrew Trimble has always been a centre. Ireland played him on the wing to give him a bit more experience and because O’Sullivan was conservative by nature. The problem in the France game was Shane Horgan who although can play 12 at a push, is much more suited to 14. I recall he was definitely at fault for one of the French tries. I do agree with your premise however. I also agree that Mortlock shouldn’t be moved. Even the Kiwi Roar contributors would say that along with Elsom, Smith and perhaps Vickermann, he is the only Wallaby they truly respect.

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Benjamin,

Shamelessly pinched from another forum:

It’s taken 5 rounds, but the English can now be proud of the fact that home-born talent have finally been responsible for more than half the points scored in a round of their own domestic championship. Of the 286 points scored in round 5, 20 English-born players gathered 156 points between then (or 54.5% of the total).

England: 156 points scored by 20 players
NZ: 35 by 5
Australia: 23 by 2

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I personally can attest that the nuances (especially defensively) at 13 are many. I converted from a wing to OC and the first game i did is one game id rather forget. More than a few games was required to have a decent understanding aof whats going on defensively.

Ill give another example, last years six nations Ireland played France and Brian O’Driscoll was injured. I think its was Andrew Trimble (a winger) took his place. Both teams were undfeated and you could say whoever won the game would be the eventual champions, going on form that is. Ireland lost in the last few seconds by a try scored by Vincent Clerc in that channel. Another try was also scored through the same channel and ireland was very lucky that there wasnt more given that the French last pass was dropped or thrown wayward a number of times. I suppose you could argue that BOD as captain was missing but it was obvious it was his defensive abilities at 13 that lost the game and the eventual title for 2007.

but the question is when you have Mortlock why are we suggesting that move ???

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I think England have the ability to run the ball but they must have the intent to do so. Care and Cipriani are the key to this. Dawson and Wilkinson were good players but simply put they lack/ed that intangible quality that Care and Cipriani have in bucketloads. It depends on what team Johnson selects as well, as the EPS system seems to be complicating matters at present. Care - Cipriani - Simpson-Daniel - Tindall - Tait - Sackey - Abendanon promises adventure, but first and foremost England need to get points on the board, thus we may see an initial pragmatism from Johnson.

I have to disagree with you about Woodward. That team scored many, many points against all the teams in the world. The 2003 WC was a very tight affair and subsequently it seems that people have forgotten the good work that preceeded that tournament. In the tour prior they played some excellent rugby to dispatch Australia 25-14 at the Telstra but prior to that they had to grind out a win against NZ. That is the nature of rugby, but I believe that in parts Woodward had England playing the best rugby in their history.

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Will England finally get their line functioning? They have outstanding talent in Noon, Flood, Tait and Sackey (and the new guy, the Tongan Vainikolo who could prove to be a game-breaker) but they seldom combine well. Even Clive couldn’t get them to do it. If they ever do get their act together, behind people like Kay, Borthwick, Regan, Shaw, Stevens, Vickery, Sheridan, they’d be unbeatable at Twickers.

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Steve Merrick was the man I was trying to recall - thank you. Ian Williams I saw in England when Jones brought him over as a finisher on the famous Grand Slam Tour. Very fast. The preference for big wingers will continue, not only to get a better option for the offensive kick from the 5/8, but because everybody pitches in now, and bigger is better in those rucks. Lomu was indeed unhappy with turning and going back. Jonah was like a Bugatti which was famous for it speed and notorius for its poor brakes. Ettore Bugatti always said that he made his cars to go, not to stop. That was Jonah: fast and hard to stop. I miss him. Such a brave guy, and had he been 100% healthy during his career, and had that career not been cut short, he would have become THE great Kiwi player. He could have made really big bucks as a tight end in the NFL but turned it down.
Thelma, you’ve clearly been a rugby fan for some time so let’s have your best Wallaby 15
for the spring tour.

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Yep, this year is bucking the trend. But it still is the case that SH players are scoring the points so far this year. I don’t know if there are more SH players than in previous years, but the ones going there are much better than in the past. Its not a retirement village anymore.

Oh, Vainikolo was born in Tonga by the way. Grew up in NZ, so you can’t have him, even if he is a capped English player.

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the top three points scorers were all English; Goode, Hodgson and Cipriani.
the top ten try scorers were all English; Varndell, Banahan, Simpson-Daniel, Benjamin, Vainikolo, Foden, Voyce, Tom Arscott, Biggs and May.

here are some more stats from the 2006/07 season:

the top three points scorers were Jackson (NZ), and Barkley and Jarvis, both English.
the top ten try scorers were all English except Lemi (Sam.) and Ratuvou (Fiji) - Varndell, Brown, Sackey, Strettle, Ojo.

Thus the current stats that you mentioned (from only 5 games) are very much an aberattion rather than a continued trend.

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Seriously now, I agree with you about the rugby commentating. However, I’ve read somewhere in these posts that Rod Kafer does an admirable job analysing the game post-match.

When my two daughters and I would watch a particular rugby game for the second or third time, we would usually turn the volume off, and concentrate on the entire screen.

The halfback “who quit to run his coal business” was Steve Merrick. He didn’t like living in The Big Smoke. Bob Dwyer had great hopes for him. He considered Steve to be in the same mold as Nick Farr-Jones.

I have this constantly nagging thought that we are missing a big part of the problem with the Aussie team: how to defend against the BREAK OUT. There is really no time to set the type of defense coached by Muggleton pre-ELVs. Once ball is turned over, from the ruck or from ball having been kicked, forwards and backs must regather to meet the point of attack. The flow is so fluid that I think we should revert to the old defense of “marking your own man” or something close to it. Then the preference for the big wings: Kirwan, Tuigamala, Lomu may be sacrificed for smaller wings like Ian Williams and Paul Carozza. It was said that Lomu was slow to turn around. The imperative is for PACE. I remember the 2000 Club Grand Final when Brendan Williams (”the pocket-rocket”) cut down Luke Inman at the Randwick 20-30 meter line, after Inman had a great headstart.

I concede I’m on shaky grounds here. I saw only one ARC game, and I’ve mailed my DVDs of the Tri-Nations to my daughter in Kuala Lumpur, so I can’t watch the games again. But I feel so uncomfortable with all the discussions in the Roar about player selection which I think do not address major changes in the game.

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Guinness Premiership stats:
Top Try Scorer: Joe Maddock (Kiwi)
Top Point Scorer: Glen Jackson (Kiwi)
3rd Top Point Scorer: Peter Hewit (Aussie)
Top Goal Kicker: Joe Maddock (Kiwi)
3rd Top Goal Kicker: Butch James (Sth African)

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I haven’t seen any published scheme for the 2011 RWC, but they’re clearly not starting now.
So we’re left with the age-old maxim for international picks: be conservative, field a team with experience, and above all, go for three points ever time.

Re. the Lote problem: he has wonderful lateral moves, but given the drift defense and the sideline hemming him in, he can’t display them all that often. Playing him at 13 would position him to beat his man without worrying about stepping out of bounds, then unloading to a fleet winger. But they won’t play him there so I can’t see the backline being any different to the one you propose.

Still, as long as England insists on playing

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Things could be worse - eg in France, the scrum half is called the demi de melee, and the origin of the borrowed English word melee apparently comes from the Old French noun for a rapidly moving disorder which, you’ll agree, is a pretty apt description of the current Wallaby pack.

In Wales, a breakaway is called a flanker or a blaenasgellwr which could be the reason why Wales lets in so many tries. By the time somebody shouts a warning, “Watch out for that blaenasgellwr,” he’s scored.

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I watch copious amounts of NH rugby, and the backs you are impressed by, are mainly from the SH…

One major difference with the American Football / Rugby comparison is fitness. NFL games stop so often, players constantly have the chance to catch their breath. No fatigue based mistakes. I’ve not watch a huge amount of NFL, but it was the first thing I noted when I started tuning in this year.

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Benjamin et al, rugby and American football are different games. I accept their respective premises and can therefore enjoy both. And I concede that a rugby player is required a wider range of skills than a “gridiron” player. But the former still needs to master the individual skills that comprise the suite of skills required of that position. And required by the game plan as well.

This discussion of 5/8s brings up another quandary. What’s with the 5/8 fraction? If the fly half is the first 5/8, and the inner center is the second 5/8, where are the rest of the 5/8s? And why an eight? And why a “wing three quarters”? Is he the right wing or the left wing? And who’s the “wing forward?”

Soccer used to be straightforward. In the ’60s, it was 5-3-2. Somewhere along the line, it became 4-4-2. Now it’s 1/2, 3, 1/2, 3, 3. Sometimes there’s a player floating between the halfbacks and the fullbacks. And defenders head goals.

And I can’t see Phil Jackson’s (Lakers) “triangle offense”.

Oh for the simple joys of sheep-dog trials!

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Honk Kong will be a cracker cause Im going, The UK…well. They just wont be fit enough. The games evolving but the Brits arnt. I too have been watching the games and the 6 nations was a poor cousin to the 3 nations which is why the UK hates the ELVs.

—
That’s ironic.

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What I dont get after living in the US is why yanks are so damn scared of Rugby, as for NFL…..I just went to watch a game and found the best spectacle was the cheer leaders. The game between the Patriots and Dallas, dragged out like an episode of ‘The Bold and The Beautiful’. All the hot and steamy but no sex. Breaks your heart.

Now yes they can run and catch in the NFL like anyone else but, the ball isnt in contest for 100% of the game. Rugby dosnt have 60 players in a roster so, Rugby players actually get to touch the ball and the entire game dosnt revolve around some yokle who, can forward pass real good like n such.

Sure we got some boys who should be playing up to the mark, but that the beauty of the game. Honk Kong will be a cracker cause Im going, The UK…well. They just wont be fit enough. The games evolving but the Brits arnt. I too have been watching the games and the 6 nations was a poor cousin to the 3 nations which is why the UK hates the ELVs. In the months ahead, new Australian Champions will emerg and some fade away but, if there is any waxing going on, itll be the back hair thanks.

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We will improve from there though.

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Rugby players have to be multi skilled. I mean look at the forwards! In the days I played, a forwards job was to win the ball from the attacking team. Nowadays players are expected to make breaks, win ball, pass like a slick back and have the chase game of an outside centre. that includes the props!

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I have to agree with Benjamin, I am an NFL fan and can appreciate that physically, these guys are the pinnacle of the football codes, and generally you will find that these guys were not only excelling at football in high school and college, they excelled at all sports.

However in rugby, you need to be able to do a variety of tasks, a wide receiver does not need to make tackles, neither does a quarterback.

These guys need to do one thing well and bloody well - it is specialisation to the nth degree, if a wide receiver can’t catch the ball and run real fast, then he’s cut, whereas rugby players need to be able to do multiple tasks.

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Regarding Giteau, you still have to kick lots at 12. I personally see him as a 12 but that produces a problem at 10. Barnes is not really a proper 10 either. He still plays 10 the way a league fly half does. I’m not sure about HK simply because I’m not entirely convinced about Deans’s selections. I think that Mortlock is a nescessity at 13, and his parternship with Giteau at 12 was very fruitful. However in an ideal world I’d like to see Staniforth on the bench as both a wing option and an alternate number 12. He’s inventive and physical, thus providing variety to that which Giteau offers. Hynes has pretty much cemented one wing position and as much as I would begrudge it to him I simply don’t think there are any viable alternatives to Tuqiri. He provides a physical balance and a useful cross-field kick option. Drew Mitchell is still too headless and Turner is too small to play alongside Hynes. In the absence of Sheperd I would have to go with AAC at 15 even though I think his best position will ultimately be at 13. I would always prefer to see Barnes and Giteau at 10-12, but I imagine that Deans will persevere with his 3N selections. Burgess is guaranteed a start at 9 simply because Cordingley is too pedestrian and Sheehan is mediocre at best. I’m confident that Burgess will grow into a fine player but he is too adventurous behind a weak pack. Therefore the 3N team Burgess - Barnes (at 10) - Hynes - Giteau - Mortlock - Tuqiri - AAC.

You?

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BENJAMIN - the meat and potato halfbacks and fullbacks in the NFL, and the defensive linebackers (excepting those third and long situation mentioned above) and the pass-catching stars play the four quarters with a sub now and then. That’s why top runners in the
NFL turn in 100-yard plus gains in game after game. And they do indeed have to worry about ball retention because, unless they go all the way, they’re hit a lot harder than they would be in rugby. And while it’s illegal to tackle a man in the air in rugby, it’s perfectly legal to slam a player in American football while he’s off the ground. And still they hold onto it. I prefer a good game of rugby (if there is such a thing anymore) to a good game of American football, but you’ll never convince me that rugby pros are more talented than the pros of the NFL or the CFL.

Re. Mitchell and Giteau: one of the reasons why Gits doesn’t get on with Mitchell is because Mitch plays him at 5/8. Gits knows he’s a center, and wants to play there where he can have that much more room to move. Playing at 5/8, so close to today’s speedy international breakaways, greatly reduces his options. Also, he doesn’t have an eye for the gap as Bernie did. Plus his offensive kicking can go from great to awful in a game. It’s hard to adjust the Wallaby pack these days, but let’s hear your choice for the backs against the ABs in HK.

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