By Adrian Warren
October 8th 2008 @ 2:50am
Verbeek sets record straight on Carle
Socceroos coach Pim Verbeek today hosed down a potential spat with his Crystal Palace counterpart Neil Warnock after clarifying comments he made about English football and the club’s Australian midfielder Nicky Carle.
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Warnock went on the offensive after it was reported that Dutchman Verbeek felt Carle wasn’t suited by the style of football in the second tier of the English competition.
“The coach should talk about his own performances with Australia, he doesn’t know anything about Palace - when has he seen us play?” Warnock told the South London Press.
“He’s only read newspapers or seen tv games which you can’t possibly judge.
“He should come and see us more often and get a better assessment.”
Verbeek today emphasised not all of his comments about Carle had been reported .
“I think I should have sent him all the tapes of what I have said,” Verbeek said.
“Because if you say something about a player you always get half of what I said.
“I’m not saying that what I said wasn’t true, but they (the media) forget sometimes somethings.
“I never said it was a terrible club, did I. I really love English football, I think Crystal Palace is a great club.
“I only have my doubts about Nicky and his qualities if he wants to be in the Socceroo team for the future.
“That’s all I said. I’m the manager of the Socceroos, I’ve never said anything wrong or stupid or negative about Crystal Palace, but I have no problems to call him (Warnock) and tell him what I’ve said, because he knows that he should not believe what is in the media.”
Verbeek said he didn’t want to talk more about Carle and just wanted him to produce the goods on the field.
“How many games did he play in the last month, in the last year, let him show himself, his qualities,” Verbeek said of Carle.
“The last time he played well was here in the A-League, that’s two years ago.”
Carle said he hadn’t seen reports of Verbeek’s initial comments, but was disappointed at being omitted from the Australian squad for next week’s World Cup qualifier against Qatar in Brisbane.
“I’m someone who always wants to be part of the international side, the biggest honour of any professional to play for their country. The onus is on me to work hard,” Carle said.
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The Bear said | October 8th 2008 @ 8:46am | Report comment
And that’s supposed to set it straight? LMAO.
“Last time he played well was here in the A-League, that’s two years ago.”
I wonder if he can blame the media for that gaff. I seem to remember adulation from Bristol City for helping them do really well as a newly promoted CC League team. Is Pim all of a sudden saying the HAL is better than second tier English League. My oh my, how things change.
Graciously,
The Bear
The Bear said | October 8th 2008 @ 8:58am | Report comment
This probably puts Slippery Jim’s article from the “roar of the crowd” section, into proper perspective
jimbo said | October 8th 2008 @ 9:33am | Report comment
Set the record straight?
Pimbo’s opinions have more twists and turns than a Dutch mongrel’s hind leg.
12 months ago Pimbo said it was better to train in the German second division and sit on the bench, than play in the A-League, which is vastly inferior.
This started a mini stampede of our most promising young players who have ambitions to play for the Socceroos to leave and go overseas.
Now, he says Carle did his best work in the A-League.
Pimbo and Arnold won’t pick Carle no matter which team he plays for - he doesn’t fit in with the workhorse robotic defensive style of midfielders that Dutch coaches like.
Clutching at straws for excuses.
How many of us have the opportunity to see any European players live - they play 20 thousand miles away - dumb comment!
I tolerate Pimbo because he is getting results - that’s about it.
Mick of Newie said | October 8th 2008 @ 9:48am | Report comment
As I said on th Warnock blog:
I know we like his directness but I think that is now over the top, In the last 2 years, Carle has played a handful of games in Turkey, 17 games for Bristol and now 12 for Palace. Clearly someone at Palace liked at least 1 game he played at Bristol. I am sure Pim or Hrenk have not watched every game so how can he comment on the last time he played well. Ask yourself this Pim, when was the last time Mile Sterjovski or David Carney played a good game for their club given Carle has played more games in the last 2 years than these 2 combined.
jimbo said | October 8th 2008 @ 9:55am | Report comment
Spot on Mick,
he makes up the excuses as he goes along.
Harry hardly played a game all year, but he was the first player picked in Pimbo’s team. Then he says people don’t get picked because they aren’t getting enough first team match practice.
Get used to the Socceroo teams picked for the last year (barring injuries) and their style of play, because that’s what you’ll see for the next 2 years.
sledgeross said | October 8th 2008 @ 10:01am | Report comment
The problem with the whole Nicky Carle dabate is that after a good season in the A League, where he was dominant and elegantly skilled, he sought pastures new. The problem, as I see it, is that people have somewhat inflated his actual ability due to his cause being championed by media types (yes Fink, Im talking about you!). Nicky has sublime skills, and good vision, but where do you play him? I think Carle is unlucky not to have been picked, but their are plenty of other players who have similary “flown under the radar”, and Im not talking about Max Vieri! Richie Garcia, Joel Porter, Danny Invincible, Kasey Wehrman can all be considered unlucky not to have more caps after serving long apprenticeships in Europe. And what about the old Dean Bouzanis chestnut.
Carle is a fine player, but he is not the first player to be overlooked when the manager has a specific “horses for courses” policy. I firmly believe that this debate causes so much polarity it has confused the actual ability of Nicky. He is a good player who unluckily has not played enough in the green and gold, but he’s not a world beater either.
Slippery Jim said | October 8th 2008 @ 10:25am | Report comment
The Bear, nice to see you have read my article old buddy, and here I was thinking you had sworn off all things Slippery
Pim was talking about Nick Carle’s quality, not the A-Leagues by the way. You can watch the entire interview with Pim on TWG site for the whole context.
chris said | October 8th 2008 @ 11:20am | Report comment
love him or hate him, Pim knows creates debate. I actually like him.
In terms of Nicky Carle, I saw him play a couple weeks ago in the Championship for Crystal Palace. He touched the ball maybe ten times, not through any fault of his own. The ball was floating over his head for the entire game, long ball after long ball. The touches that he had on the ball were quite good.
The Championship is a tough physical league, although the actual quality is poor. I have seen a few game this season and the amount of long balls played is unforgiving. I would prefer to watch a good A-League game any day of the week. Bosnich actually himself said on Sunday night (fox sports) that the quality of the Championship is poor.
sledgeross said | October 8th 2008 @ 11:31am | Report comment
Its true Chris. As a Leeds United fan, Ive endured watching games of the Championship and League 1 for the last few seasons. Its a different ball game down there, its about taking points. There are some quality players in the lower leagues, if the bigger clubs would take a chance, but the general standard of play is probably similar to the A League, but with better quality individual players.
The Bear said | October 8th 2008 @ 11:43am | Report comment
Sledge… you are correct, the league Carle (and Sterj, Carney et al) is currently in has more in common with International football, than the HAL. It’s about points, it’s not always pretty. Pim should have your ear. And Jim, not sworn off everything Slippery. That would be a bit extreme. And chris, that league was good enough for Cahill, so lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.
Graciously,
The Bear
Mick of Newie said | October 8th 2008 @ 12:55pm | Report comment
This article is not about Carle the player. There is nothing terribly original that can be said on that one. It is about Pim supposedly setting the record straight. Unfortunatley for Nick the attempt to pacify Palace and Warnock involves more severe criticism of Carle, which given his public announcements in this matter he did not deserve.
Pippinu said | October 8th 2008 @ 12:57pm | Report comment
Pim has made the call, he’s telling Carle to get more games under his belt - fair enough.
dasilva said | October 8th 2008 @ 1:04pm | Report comment
Jimbo
Pim doesn’t have to watch any match in all the players in Europe especially those playing in lower division. It’s the job of Henk Duut to do that and Pim to rely on his assessment. Pim wouldn’t get much done if he personally watches and monitors the form of all potential soccerroos. If the player get a tick from Henk then Pim then judges the player in person in training camps. Carle had the opportunity and he didn’t impress. It was a pretty unfair question. Although I’ll admit that “Last time he played well was here in the A-League, that’s two years ago.” was over the top and not warranted.
In any case Carle although playing well in English 2nd division he hasn’t standed out and played exceptionally well with exception of a few matches (Bristol city vs Sheffield). Not many assist (2) and not many goals (3). Considering that most of his midfield competitors for the national team are playing in much stronger domestic leagues. Carle will not break into national side by just playing “well” for a bottom half of a second division club. He has to be stand out for his club and the league.
“12 months ago Pimbo said it was better to train in the German second division and sit on the bench, than play in the A-League, which is vastly inferior.”
No at the time Nurnberg were a first division club in Germany. No one mention that it is better to train in the lower leagues of Europe then to play regularly in Australia. I mention before that Dean Heffernan was lend out to Nurnberg didn’t play at all came back to central coast and the coach was astounded how much he improve in defending and positioning. Training in the top leagues in Europe with better players may not necessary advance your career but in terms of developing your game of football it could be argued that it is better then playing regularly in the A-league.
“Harry hardly played a game all year, but he was the first player picked in Pimbo’s team. Then he says people don’t get picked because they aren’t getting enough first team match practice.”
You have take in many different components of a players ability such as skill, match fitness and mentaility etc. KEwell because he is the most gifted player Australia has ever produce is good enough to play for Soccerroos even without regular first team match practice. A 80% kewell is still good enough for the soccerrooos. An 80% Carney and Sterjovski is not good enough as their potential ability does not compensate for not playing regularly for the club.
Honestly Pim Verbeek does not have to patronising enough to point out why a Kewell with limited match practice was selected and Carney and Sterjovski is at risk of getting drop. His point is that Carney and Sterjovski are good enough for the Soccerroos if playing regularly but because they are not - then Pim has other players.
“Pimbo and Arnold won’t pick Carle no matter which team he plays for - he doesn’t fit in with the workhorse robotic defensive style of midfielders that Dutch coaches like.”
I don’t believe Kewell or Bresciano are robotic midfielder.
Pim main criticism is this. He believes that Nicky carle dribbles too much and doesn’t get the team involve as he should. Pim Verbeek say that Nick thinks that he has to make an “action” all the time (I assume he means dribbling or solo play) during TWG.
NOw that may prove your point that defensive Pim doesn’t like dribblers but perhaps he has a point.
Dutch legend Cruijff (you can’t call him a defensive, non-flair player and manager) criticising Messi year or two ago before he became a serious contender of the best player in the world - Messi has become predictable. Every time he had a ball he try to dribble past players. Defenders can adjust for that if you keep on doing that consistently. He says if you have the ball 9 out of 10 times you have to play for your team and pass the ball and try to break down the defence. Only one time out of ten do you play for yourself and try to beat players and have a solo run as doing it sparingly will makes it more effective and more difficult for defenders to adjust as they have more problems predicting your next move.
If Carle does try to dribble too much then it can be a legitimate criticism and not just Pim is a defensive and like robotic player stereotype. IT seems to me teamwork is the main issue with Pim Verbeek. The thing is since he is not in a technical league where Carle only gets 5-10 touches. He can’t judge whether Carle has improve with that ability and the only thing he has to judge by is the training session he has with Carle which didn’t impress Pim
There’s also another reason
I’ll cut and paste my previous post.
None of this is explicitly express by Pim Verbeek and is more of my opinion.
Nick Carle is a playmaker - there to create opportunities. I believe Pim believes the likes of Bresciano, Kewells and Emerton are good enough to create chances for the Soccerroo. This makes Carle superfluous as he has alternative players playing in better clubs and leagues. Unless you want tean to play 3 playmakers (kewell, bresciano and carle) it’s fully understandable that Carle doesn’t fit in especially when both Kewell and Bresciano has better goal scoring record then carle. This leads to the next point. The only spot up for the grabs is the second striker/attacking midfielder - the Holman/Cahill position.
Nick Carle
Olympic 86 caps 12 goals
Marconi Stallions 25 caps 6 goals
Newcastle United Jets 42 caps 7 goals
I didn’t include his european adventures as that will make Carle’s goal scoring record even worst.
Carle has never proven to be a prolific goal scorer even in A-league levels as he does not make intelligent runs into the box and his finishing isn’t that great either (it’s the biggest criticism of his game reading from Bristol City and Crystal palace fan. I really hope Carles get its right this season).
Excelsior Rotterdam 134 caps 39 goals
NEC Nijmegan 59 caps 19 goals
This is almost one goal every 3 games and is much better record then a nick carle (and a better league as well). Although it is not fantastic it is also not bad for an attacking midfielder or support striker. It shows that Holman has the POTENTIAL to score goals for Australia
Other relevant players as well (Bresciano less then 1 goal every 4-5 games including PAlermo, Empoli and PArma, Jason Culina 1 goal every 3 games for Twente not much for PSV. Cahill 1 goal every 3-4 games for everton)
Obviously Pim Verbeek is looking for someone who can make intelligent runs behind a forward (I’m thinking Viduka who would complement well with holman) and score goals for Australia. Tim Cahill is the best man for the job but he was injured. Bresciano is more of a creator then a goal scorer and is not a prolific scorer. Culina is an interesting options for that position considering he was successful in playing that role for Twente but nowadays he is now a holding midfielder (I’m very curious how Culina would go if given attacking freedom. I’m open to him playing as a second striker).
Now enter Holman. He is a poor mans Cahill and he hasn’t score goals for Australia yet. However because he has the runs on the board and score goals one goal every 3 matches in Holland. Pim Verbeek is convince that eventually the intelligent runs Holman makes will eventually lead to goals.
It is a gamble from Pim but it is not done without good justification or for no reason. He is putting faith in a player he believes has potential. He has scored at club levels and believe with time will step up at international levels. It’s very common for manager to stick up for players who are underperforming due to potential and this is what currently happening with Holman.
ALthough people get up in arms whenever Holman missed a chance. What makes people think that Nick Carle would do any better. like I said - Nick Carle has never been a prolific goal scorer even in A-league and records show that Holman is more reliable man to stick in the back of the net then Carle.
The Bear said | October 8th 2008 @ 1:12pm | Report comment
Pip: Didn’t stop Carney being picked, or Milligan for that matter. Carle will get games as a matter of course, but it’s merely a delaying tactic. And you bought it.
btw, how many games is Holman starting, dasilva?
And as for this article, by Adrian. Can we believe Pim… is his credibibilltiy intact? Good player management? Mick has made a good point. Pim has done no favours to Carle in this “Warnock retraction”.
Graciously,
The Bear
sledgeross said | October 8th 2008 @ 1:12pm | Report comment
Mick, obviously Nick isnt versatile enough for “Dutch” football. Sterj and Carney can play multiple positions, whereas Nicky is a CM. Pim appears to be an honest, straight shooting bloke, I think we can agree he is forthright. I dont think he is being “severely” critical of Carle at all. Its just the Carle sycophants keep asking Pim why he isnt picked. I feel sorry for Nick, as its people driving the Carle agenda that keeps the negativity around. As I said earlier, it causes extreme polarity, people dont like to concede they could be wrong, so the debate becomes personal with only black or white, with no gray.
Pippinu, your post is probably the most realistic and logical on here as regards a solution.
Mick of Newie said | October 8th 2008 @ 1:22pm | Report comment
da silva
I don’t particularly disagree with anything you say about the relative merits of the various midfielders. The point here is that Carle has done nothing to warrant such a pointed attack. Pim was out of line. If he said Henk has seen him and he doesn’t fit my plans at the moment. That would be fine, to say he hasn’t played a good game in 2 years is unnecessary, inaccurate and in my view unprofessional.
The good news is that the player himself appears to be handling it with his usual class.
The Bear said | October 8th 2008 @ 1:58pm | Report comment
Sledge, Nick is one of the very few players (Culina) that has proven his worth as a DCM and CAM. He absolute killed both positions at Bristol. That’s the essence of versatility, for a central midfielder.
Mick, well said.
Graciously,
The Bear
jimbo said | October 8th 2008 @ 2:17pm | Report comment
Dasilva,
a very good analysis but subjective as always.
I don’t like Pimbo as a football manager or as a person and yet lots of people do.
He has his way of doing things and his agendas just like Arnold does.
If Zico was the Socceroos manager, Carle would be one of the first players chosen and we would get a lot more entertainment for our money from the Socceroos. He’d get the results too.
Pimbo can pick whoever he likes (after Arnold tells him) and come up with any justification he likes. He is the current Socceroos football manager and while he’s qualifying no one can take it off him.
sledgeross said | October 8th 2008 @ 2:24pm | Report comment
Bear, while Nicky performed admirably playing deeper at Bristol, I wouldnt say he “killed it”. His tackling and positioning left alot to be desired (to be fair, I havent seen him play this year), but I recall him giving away a penalty in the playoffs, and being very lucky not to concede a second one as well in the same game as well. Having said that, he provided the assist for a key goal for City, which showed his poise with the ball. Having said that, his attacking stats, and defensive work dont really inspire your assertion that he killed both positions. I dont think I would put him in the Culina adaptability class just yet.
Mick, I think Pim could have worded it better, but reading that I thought he meant “played consistently well”. Perhaps that would have been better to avoid confusion. Of course Nick hasnt been as dominant as he was in the A League, but he has also stepped up a footballing level, and has been forced to play in different positions. Given that, is he a better option that the other mids we have running around?
Again though, kudos to Nick for handiling this messy situation (not of his making) with dignity and class.
dasilva said | October 8th 2008 @ 2:28pm | Report comment
Mick
Most of things that Pim has said has been fair. He pretty much answered all the question as honest as he can and I don’t mind in particular of manager giving players a bit of kick in the arse as a motivation to prove Pim wrong.
However I do agree that not playing a good game in 2 years was unnecessary.
The Bear
I agree that Carle has proven his worth as a defensive midfielder (at English second division level). I have never had a problem with the work ethics of Nick Carle. It seems to me that Pim also drop the criticism that that he doesn’t work hard as well. Funny enough the problem with Carle right now is that he hasn’t been putting out the killer through ball and scoring goals for the club in Europe. What’s has been avoided by Carle supporters is that Carle was played as a attacking midfielder for Bristol City failed and then was reshuffled as a DM where he played well. He was then off loaded as they have many alternatives for DM, they brought Carle as an AM therefore they didn’t get what they paid for and the price was right. You may argue that the club should have been more patient and persist with Carle as an AM but Carle didn’t take the opportunity that was presented at Bristol.
I find it funny that when people try to justify Carle selection they just assume that Carle can do through balls and score goals when he hasn’t been doing that. I’m happy if Carle is selected as a back up defensive midfielder for Australia as that’s the only thing he has proven in the time he has spent in Europe. However he is our fourth best DM after Grella, Culina and Valeri.
Pim was actually ask how come Carle is not being selected while Sterjovski and Coyne and Carney are also playing in lower division in England. The difference with Sterjovski, Coyne and Carney. His reasoning was that we don’t have many alternatives for right winger, central defender and left back. With holman we don’t have many players other than H Kewell to play as a support striker when Cahill is injured. Therefore Pim has to select players who are not playing regularly (although with Holman, he did play regularly the season before he move clubs while Sterjovski and Carney has not.). I’m pretty curious what players Pim had in mind to replace Carney and Sterjovski if they still haven’t found a club that plays them yet.
We are however loaded with central midfielders. That’s why playing and doing moderately well in English Second division is not good enough.
sledgeross said | October 8th 2008 @ 2:34pm | Report comment
Jimbo, coulda shoulda woulda. And if my aunty had balls she would be my uncle!
Pims agenda is to qualify Australia for the World Cup. Wow, a bloke doing his job, very agenda driven.
If Zico was manager? Well, so what, who cares what Zico would do? Would Arsene Wenger, or Alex Ferguson, Aragones, Domenech etc pick Carle. How the hell would you know who he would pick. If you want entertainment, go watch re runs of Comedy Company with Mark Mitchell. Your assertion that a Zico/Carle combination acheiving greater results is ridiculous and supposition.
Ok, joking tirade aside, I guess (as you assert) as long as Pim gets results, he can pretty much do as he wants. I suppose its similar to Jack Charlton with the Irish team.
jimbo said | October 8th 2008 @ 2:41pm | Report comment
Who would want Carle to be a defensive midfielder when he has such attacking talent?
That’s part of the problem.
Does Dunga ask Ronaldinho or Robinho to track back and mark Van Nistleroy?
No - they are free to play wherever they want.
Brazil dominate the tactics and usually make the opposition play the way that suits them, not the other way around.
Mick of Newie said | October 8th 2008 @ 2:47pm | Report comment
I think Pim should have said “We just won 1 - 0 away in Central Asia. Ask me about player selection when we are losing.”
The Bear said | October 8th 2008 @ 2:48pm | Report comment
dasilva, how much depth do we have that can play the midfield position which supports a two striker system? Surely this is an area that Carle can fill in the squad…and book his place to South Africa.
Culina, yes. Cahill, yes. Carle, yes. But at present Pim is withholding the love. Why?
Graciously,
The Bear
dasilva said | October 8th 2008 @ 2:49pm | Report comment
THe reason is because we have Kewell and Bresciano to use their attacking talent without defending (although I’m surprised how much work Kewell does defending recently). Carle may be a good attacking talent but so far he hasn’t shown it like Kewell and Bresciano does. That’s why he has to become more versatile for Pim to select.
The Bear said | October 8th 2008 @ 3:00pm | Report comment
dasilva, thanks for the response. Pim says he only needs three deep in every position. You mention HK and MB, in supporting a two prong attack. So why no NC, as number three? Nicky has shown willingness, and ability in the middle third, as well. So he has got the versatility. He is not the same type of CAM as Kewell, but Carle will give the depth to the squad.
Graciously,
The Bear
dasilva said | October 8th 2008 @ 3:00pm | Report comment
Another issues is team work and decision making. Pim believes when Carle has the ball he dribbles to much or looks for killer ball instead of doing the simple things. That he should only be doing that at the right time. If messi can be criticise for that then so can Carle
The Bear
I admit. Carle should be in the squad. I just don’t believe he is an automatic selection to the 1st XI or be too shock or disappointed if he miss out.
The Bear said | October 8th 2008 @ 3:21pm | Report comment
dasilva, i think there is a helluva lot of people who seem to think Carle advocates are pushing for his automatic inclusion to the starting eleven. Or even the bench.
He needs to be assessed fairly, tested and judged, first. Thanks for the reasoned discussion.
Graciously,
The Bear
Koala Bear said | October 8th 2008 @ 3:26pm | Report comment
Pimbo, said of Brett Holman that, he is more dynamic than Carle… Hmmm can someone please explain to me how that is so…?? Or what does Pimbo’s comment “more dynamic” mean in Football terms ..?? Did he mean he just runs more or his skills are far superior than Carle’s skills..??
Carle has been hard done by and there is more to this than meets the eye.. Pimbo in my view is a failure, and we may reach the 2010 world cup, but at this rate we look like we will go out in the group stages … He is not a Guus Hiddink and at best on the same level as Graham Arnold.. Who I actually feel sorry for, being replaced to install Pimbo and with a better pay packet …
~~~~~~~~
KB
Slippery Jim said | October 8th 2008 @ 3:33pm | Report comment
KB, I think ‘dynamic’ means he runs around a lot.
Slippery Jim said | October 8th 2008 @ 3:39pm | Report comment
“dynamic
Adjective
1. (of a person) full of energy, ambition, or new ideas”
My six year old cousin is full of energy, but I’m not sure he should be in the Socceroos squad, I guess Holmann is full of new ideas then.
Mick of Newie said | October 8th 2008 @ 3:42pm | Report comment
He doesn’t strike me as an ideas man but life is full of surprises.
The Bear said | October 8th 2008 @ 3:44pm | Report comment
KB, i think it is simply a personal preference, one that borders on xenophobia. Holman is more the player that Pim identifies himself with. “dynamic” would be referring to Holman’s “running” and “availability”… not awful things for a player, but fairly awful if you play that player as a CAM, behind the strikers. Passing and vision are what is required moreso, for that position…but it’s hardly a predicament that Pim has afforded himself the luxury to pursue.
He is still dicking around with the defence, lol.
Graciously,
The Bear
dasilva said | October 8th 2008 @ 4:46pm | Report comment
For the most part Holman has been playing as a second striker behind Kennedy or combining with Harry Kewell.
Dynamics is making intelligent runs past the defence. Holman has been doing that alot and was singled out from the Netherlands manager for praise after their defeat to Australia.
I still think Holman is not good enough but he does offer something to the side that no one else except Cahill does. I may not agree on Pim selection but I understand it.
Koala Bear
The suggestion that Pim is as bad as Arnold is completely crap.
A cut and paste from previous post
Arnold didn’t know how to coach an Australian team to slow the tempo down and control the game with short passes. he tried to continue the high tempo pressing game that Australia used so well in the World Cup. The difference is that this is in incredibly humid conditions and no matter how fit you are you will be worn out playing that style of Football. To do well in humid conditions you have to a play a style of football that doesn’t rely too much on physical fitness. That’s why Argentina did well in the Olympics. That’s why Australia played well in Qatar, China (relatively, they kept the ball) and even UAE (yes Australia lost the match and yet the performance was much better than the Asia Cup) under Pim Verbeek. Ok you can argue that Australia played poorly in CHina and UAE due to the poor results. However in those game Australia kept the ball and limited the opposition to the few chances. We were let down by Pim conservatism but at least the side look organised in the back and most importantly the Australian player conserve their energy in difficult conditions by the way Australia played their football.
I used to bought Arnolds line that the heat and humidity was too much. He kept on saying that people criticising his performance has never played in these conditions before. I used to thought that the criticism was a bit unfair. Now I saw Pim Verbeek man pull out decent away performance in Qatar, China, Uzbekistan and UAE (relative to Asia Cup and the lost in Kuwait) in a shorter preparation time has made me realise that it was just poor coaching from Arnold. Pim achieve more in Kunming then Arnold did in his entire coaching career. This is from someone who was disappointed with Kunming performance due to conservativism from Pims part. The fact that in his second match in charge he manage to coach the team to play to the conditions was something Arnold never achieve in his reign as manager.
Koala Bear said | October 8th 2008 @ 4:51pm | Report comment
Thanks Lads,
the word “dynamic” as you have all conveyed to me it was as much as I have thought.. So then is it Pimbo’s own dictionary he is reading from .?. I sort of understand the running bit … But an ideas person I am still yet to be convinced… If Pimbo had just said he just runs … like Forrest Gump, I would have understood immediately …
~~~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | October 8th 2008 @ 5:26pm | Report comment
dasilva,
With respect to your views.. I still think Pimbo is second rate.. He really makes very poor decisions, and I don’t rate Arnold as a manager either, as he was too close to the Socceroos before the Asian tragedy. Giving into the top player group; giving them a 4 weeks holiday prior to the tournament; instead of going into a 4 weeks preparation .. Yes I think he (GA) was caught out by the conditions in Asia, and with no real preparation to speak of .. But the players were tired and they requested a 4 week break as I remember after their long domestic season ..
Had it been Hiddink in charge, there would not have been a 4 weeks holiday for the players.. They simply lost their match fitness during the holiday they had to have .. They just started to run into some form when they played Japan, but it was too late and were beaten on a penalty shoot-out .. I feel had they advanced from that point and if they had made it to the final it may have been a lot different if they were to meet Iraq again in the final ..
~~~~~~~
KB
dasilva said | October 8th 2008 @ 10:59pm | Report comment
Koala Bear
Even if you don’t rate Pim Verbeek. To say he is as bad as Arnold is not on.
Pim Verbeek perhaps was too conservative against Iraq and China and that may have cost them a victory. We also played dreadful football against Ghana and china at home.
However we have also made a lot of steps forward under Pim.
I already mention before that we played to the conditions under Verbeek. We didn’t play at 100 miles an hour. We hold possession away from home. Australia under Pim has become versatile/adaptable and be able to play different styles of football in different conditions against different opponents. We also look defensively organised.
Even if you attribute the Asian cup tragedy to the 4 week holiday. Just compare Australia vs Kuwait with Australia vs China in both away performance. Both situation were tough conditions. Both times that was the national coach only second match in his career in australia. Both match were single FIFA date. Yet Australia played so much better under Pim then Arnold (draw against china and 2-0 lost to Kuwait). Even if Australia lost to China due to the penalty I will stand by the fact that Australia played more clever football then that disaster in Kuwait. Under Arnold you can only trust him to win matches if we were playing at home or in Europe.
In any case other reason is his being based in Australia and his involvement with A-league players. Having training session with A-league team and selecting a fair amount of players to his squad. It will do well in developing the careers of those players. Also like the way he handles the media with the exception of “The last time he played well was here in the A-League, that’s two years ago.”
This is why I rate Verbeek as a coach despite some of his flaws. My only real criticism of Pim is his conservatism and perhaps adaptability within a match (not just adaptability between matches which he undoubtably has) where I felt he should have made better attacking substitution against china and Iraq. Also leaving Bresciano on the bench against Iraq away was unfathamable and for him not to at least bring him off the bench was just unbelievable. So he has to add more adventure to the team and make better substitution.
However after Australia vs Holland and Uzbekistan, I’m starting to think that he is becoming a more adventurous in two matches where Australia played good attacking football. If that continues and Australia qualifies to the world cup in STYLE then I’ll start calling him Aussie Pim.
So if you don’t rate Verbeek. I can accept that. To say that he is no better than Graham Arnold. Then I have to strongly disagree with that. To me Pim Verbeek is about 100 times better manager then Arnold ever was.
sledgeross said | October 9th 2008 @ 8:37am | Report comment
Koala Bear, could you please list all the poor decisions Pim has made, and impart upon the ignorant masses of Australian football what you, in your infinite wisdom and intimate knowledge of the Socceroo’s setup, would have done differently to Verbeek?
The Bear said | October 9th 2008 @ 8:51am | Report comment
Sledge, though your remark was not directed at me, I feel I have some interest here. And I think dasilva has pointed out some of the specific flaws, above. Sure Pim’s human… lets hope he has the ability to learn from these “mistakes”.
Graciously,
The Bear
Millster said | October 9th 2008 @ 9:15am | Report comment
I was particularly taken by this bit of writing from today’s Foxsports news…
“Socceroos coach Pim Verbeek called off training early in Brisbane so his entire Australia World Cup qualifying squad could watch Adelaide belt Kuruvchi - a result which is almost certain to propel Australian club soccer to an unprecedented level.
The Socceroos are preparing for a World Cup stoush with Qatar at Suncorp Stadium on Wednesday and Verbeek, in a remarkable show of solidarity, wanted his players - especially the European-based stars - to witness where club soccer had come in Australia.”
This is just wonderful and very clever…
1. Overseas Aussie players will have that bit more to talk about when they comment on and promote the A-League from abroad
2. What a show of solidarity for the game from the ‘elite’ of the Australian footballing community towards a club side forging a proud path for football in this country
3. Perhaps gentle reminder to the Socceroos squad that Australian football is rapidly increasing in depth and that national caps should not be taken for granted
But overall this is great in terms of a sense of community, solidarity and recognition. Well done Pim.
The Bear said | October 9th 2008 @ 9:35am | Report comment
Pim has been mandated by the FFA to get Aussie players back to the homeland, for the HAL’s benefit. But yeah, nice.
Graciously,
The Bear
sledgeross said | October 9th 2008 @ 10:03am | Report comment
Bear, Im merely playing Devils advocate. There are some things that I think Pim could have done better (as outlined by DaSilva), but I think to be so severely adamant that he is ’second rate’ does a dis-service not only to himself, but Aussie football in general. Pim hasnt really, for all intents and purposes, done too much wrong result wise, to be called second rate. Sure, he aint a big name, but he is getting the job done. He’s on a hiding to nothing. If we lose, we are not adventurous enough, and if we win, its not pretty enough.
The Bear said | October 9th 2008 @ 10:21am | Report comment
Ah, Sledge. Why so cynical?
dasilva said | October 9th 2008 @ 10:31am | Report comment
Millster
I’m becoming more and more of a Pim fan everyday
I’m quite sure it will be great for team bonding and team unity.
Can you point me where I could find the full article?
Koala Bear said | October 9th 2008 @ 10:32am | Report comment
Sledge,
hmm I shall try to list my grievances of Pimbo; I did not make a noted list but shall off the top of my head point out some..
1).. First of all do you think we are playing as well as a unit as we did under Guus ?.. I think not ..
2).. His statement about the A-League players .. Badly timed if you agree with it or not .. I don’t think even Guus would have said that if he were in charge.. Remembering, he omits Beauchamp and selects North so that’s a puzzling decision.. Not that I rate Beauchamp but correct me if I am wrong he is still in Europe and North is in the A-League..
3).. The fist game against Qatari and had the opportunity to bring on some fresh A-League players when we were up 3 nil but stayed with our European stars fair enough but in the second half they faded terribly from jet lag.. When he did make a sub it was Aloisi who came on and not a fresh midfielder to shore up the defence.. btw I would have gone with Archie if it was a choice of strikers, who was on fire at the time and in front of the Melbourne fans he would have maybe bagged a hat trick..
4).. His selection of Holman over Carle astonishes me.. Then also leaving Bresh out on a number of occasions is also unfathomable
5).. He’s over the top defensive style; where in China we were clearly a class above them on paper, but brought down to their mediocrity because of his overly cautious tactics. Then we lost Arch through injury that left Holman as the only striker in the squad.. Sitting back at home we had Aloisi and Agostino who were not considered worthy for squad selection.. If it was not for Schwartzer’s lucky out stretched right foot (the penalty) we would have come home with a loss.. But as luck would have it we didn’t..
6).. The game in Brissie against Iraq with all of that turmoil that surrounded the Iraqis; we failed to punish them convincingly.. We should have won comfortably ..
7).. The only light was the win against a Holland B team with only 10 men .. Fair enough a win against Holland is a feather in the cap, but it should be remembered that Holland was not the real Holland on the night…
To conclude when we had the quality of a number of applicants that wanted the position; we settled for a manager who was sacked by Sth Korea; his first coaching national job .. For the money he receives we did not choose the best we could have had… imo.. (discounting tricky Dicky)
~~~~~~~
KB
sledgeross said | October 9th 2008 @ 10:56am | Report comment
Thanks KB, I would struggle to disagree with any point you made, though perhaps Im have a more temperate view. I do think perhaps that you do overrate just how good the Socceroos are, and perhaps underestimate the opposition. I have to admit, Holman grows more on me everytime I see him play, he is improving, and his headless chook routine can confuse defenders, though in front of goal, he couldnt knock a pea off a chop.
Look at the diatribe thrown Pims way mate, with every armchair expert bagging him, its no surprise he is playing percentages.
But, as Bear rightly asserts, Im just a cynical shit-stirrer
sledgeross said | October 9th 2008 @ 10:59am | Report comment
KB, were you an Advocaat advocate?
Millster said | October 9th 2008 @ 11:02am | Report comment
DaSilva - bottom of one of the current stories on FoxSports.
Koala Bear said | October 9th 2008 @ 11:14am | Report comment
dasilva,
I think you have missed my point on GA .. I don’t rate him as a manager; but in defence of his performances and taking in his Olympic campaign; he has only been in charge as a manager when most of the time his squads have been playing with no match fitness because of one reason or another ie off seasons in Europe or no local competitions in progress.. Pim has always had the luxury of entering important games most of the time with players with their leagues in progress..
You may think I am being brutal. But with Pimbo some of our home grown lads are up their with him. So if we are so concerned in getting a top notch European Manager.. Pimbo was not it… I can think of three Frenchman who were interested in the position; who I think would have been far better.. Especially the 1998 French world cup winning manager, who openly said he would take on the position, when he was brought out by the players association to address the local coaches in a number of coaching seminars .. Oh boy what a missed opportunity that was…
~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | October 9th 2008 @ 11:24am | Report comment
KB, were you an Advocaat advocate?
Sledge,
not so much at the time; I felt that we still had better applicants .. But what he has achieved with the Zennit FC is quite remarkably, and if he had taken the Socceroo position and produced the same results; I would have been happy enough…
~~~~~~~
KB
The Bear said | October 9th 2008 @ 12:02pm | Report comment
It’s a strange thing, by having Pim …and his strengths and weakness… lets hope that there are some homegrown coaches who can learn from his methods..the good and the bad, that is. Some great points KB (and dasilva), and if you know my attitudes well enough, you would know that i echo all of them.
Every coach is not perfect. Let’s call this, the best of a bad situation, considering the FFA does not trust the local coaches just yet. And when the FFA do, let’s hope it’s someone with a lot more nous and belief, than “the unspeakable one”.
Graciously,
The Bear
Millster said | October 9th 2008 @ 12:14pm | Report comment
KB - hang on you are not serious… Aimet Jacquet wanted to coach Australia? That conflicts with my understanding of his goals, and he has certainly turned down approaches to take the reins of France once more… Gerard Houllier was a very interesting prospect but I think again we may have tried a few times but he ultimately wasn’t convinced to come. I think the only firm one was Troussier. He was my favourite over Pim in the selection due to his ‘revolution not evolution’ approach and demands for independence. But Pim is delivering the goods and is showing to have a mind of his own. So a year and a bit into the experiment, I don’t think we did too bad…
Millster said | October 9th 2008 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
The Bear - we are a young footballing country with much to learn and much potential to be untapped. I would be quite afraid and unhappy for the bulk of senior coaching staff of the Socceroos to be Aussies for a long time yet. Maybe in 20 years or so, but we need a generation or more of Asian Cup and World Cup campaigns managed by seasoned pros with global football in their blood. And during that generation we also need to get the best of our young coaches offshore, into Asia, into Europe, so that they can come back seasoned and experienced with tactics and skills from beyond these shores. This is not cultural cringe as I WANT Australia to reach that world standard in skills and coaching nous. But we have to realise our position in world football and be eager to learn learn learn at this stage.
dasilva said | October 9th 2008 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
Koala Bear
Pim came to this job with little time to settle in the squad as well and little preparation time. Like I say the Australia vs China and Australia vs Kuwait is practically identical in terms of preparation time given and yet the performance was widely different.
I’m not a fan of Pim’s pragmatism but when I look at Australia I see a team that is well organised, adaptable to the conditions (which is the Pim’s greatest achievement) and for the most part Australia pretty much limit the opposition to only a few chances.
Look- I agree with most of your point (although North outplayed Beauchamp everytime they played together). I still don’t think anything you say proves that he is as bad as Graham Arnold which is my main annoyance with your comment. I can understand how someone is annoyed with some of his substitution (or lack of) and style of football to the degree that they don’t like the coach. To say that he is as bad as Arnold is over the top.
Koala Bear said | October 9th 2008 @ 1:35pm | Report comment
Aimet Jacquet wanted to coach Australia ?
Millster, the Bear and all,
Yes it was true, he was very interested after Craig Foster and Brenden Schwab both from the Players Association at the time.. They had organised for Jacquet to conduct a series of coaching seminars for Australian local coaches over 3 weeks that were very well attended in Sydney.. It was at the same time that Houllier was approached and the on going saga, will he or won’t he commit to the job.. Meanwhile the 1998 WC winning coach was asked it he was interested by Foster and Schwab of the player’s association if he would consider the appointment and if he was an interview could be set up. However, it must be said a reluctant FFA had agreed to meet with Aimet Jacquet to discuss the position .. Remembering that Houllier was still being courted by Frank Lowy and O’Neill (?) or Ben Buckley. Lowy had his heart set upon appointing Houllier. Which would have been an exceptional appointment in my view as he had a remarkable background in the setting up the French technical department that resulted in producing players of likes of Henry and Zidane..
However, nothing came out of the meeting with Aimet Jacquet and so he returned home to France .. Pity as he was unemployed and wanted to take on an international post…
~~~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | October 9th 2008 @ 2:10pm | Report comment
dasilva,
Let me say this and I am 80% sure of it .. Pimbo was the assistant national coach for South Korea and was given the post of head coach when Guus Hiddink resigned ie promoted to head up the Sth Koreans.. Pimbo’s first test was the ASIAN national championships like Arnie .. Do you remember who was eliminated first Pimbo or was it Arnie .?. I think it was Pimbo and he resigned immediately after the event before he was sacked … Sth Korea were smashed by Japan who went on to face the Socceroos that end up in a penalty shoot-out.. So technically GA was the best of the worst …
Your point Pimbo had little time to prepare for the coming world cup qualifiers; yes so he did .. But more time than Guus for the world cup (I think) compare the two teams to date; they are miles apart; in tactics, organisation and determination. Something is missing and Pimbo is not a Guus .. However, we are stuck with him and I’m sure we will get to the 2010 WC under him.. But don’t expect a repeat performance of the 2006 WC under Pimbo; he is not that good…
~~~~~~
KB
sledgeross said | October 9th 2008 @ 2:28pm | Report comment
Its a pity we cant dicuss this over a cold schooner, heh
The Bear said | October 9th 2008 @ 2:50pm | Report comment
Millster, if the coach is good enough..i don’t care what nationality they are. In an ideal world, FIFA would mandate that Countries could not import a foreign coach.
And others, i guess what i meant was Pim is good as it gets…now. That is ..we got him, we may as well learn the lessons.
Excellent points KB. You have opened my mind.
Cheers, i will get the next round.
Graciously,
The Bear
Millster said | October 9th 2008 @ 3:07pm | Report comment
KB
I don’t expect a repeat of the 2006 World Cup under ANY coach. While Australia are improving fast and gaining depth and experience at national level we absolutely are not yet at the level of the top 16 nations in the world, and for the next couple of world cups it will be an exceptional rather than normal thing for us to join that 16-team knockout level by making it through the group stage as we did in 2006.
Just to have realistic hope of being in the 32 that go to the finals is a massive and glorious step for me, and will do for the next couple of tournaments. Remember among all the 2006 excitement that we’ve only still ever won the one single match at World Cup finals. Ever. So lets focus on getting to South Africa, which I think is a realistic goal given our standard, and then take each match as it comes once we’re in that lofty company.
Midfielder said | October 9th 2008 @ 3:14pm | Report comment
KB
Very few could replace Guss……….. IMO PIM is not as bad as you make out time will tell of course but he has grown our squad to over 40 players and has stood firm on a number of issues ……. one bing Nicky who if anywhere near as good as he is made out to be would not be struggling to get on an England second division team sheet……..he would be where Timmy C, Vinney, Marko B, Kool …………… for heavens Vinney was a capitain of a seria A team, Timmy C voted last year amoung the top 50 in Europe, we are heaps strong in midfield. Other players are pl