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The Crowd Says (78) | Page 2 of Comments

• October 8th 2008 @ 12:55pm
  Mick of Newie said | October 8th 2008 @ 12:55pm | Report comment

  This article is not about Carle the player. There is nothing terribly original that can be said on that one. It is about Pim supposedly setting the record straight. Unfortunatley for Nick the attempt to pacify Palace and Warnock involves more severe criticism of Carle, which given his public announcements in this matter he did not deserve.

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• Roar Guru

  October 8th 2008 @ 12:57pm
  Pippinu said | October 8th 2008 @ 12:57pm | Report comment

  Pim has made the call, he’s telling Carle to get more games under his belt – fair enough.

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• October 8th 2008 @ 1:04pm
  dasilva said | October 8th 2008 @ 1:04pm | Report comment

  Jimbo

  Pim doesn’t have to watch any match in all the players in Europe especially those playing in lower division. It’s the job of Henk Duut to do that and Pim to rely on his assessment. Pim wouldn’t get much done if he personally watches and monitors the form of all potential soccerroos. If the player get a tick from Henk then Pim then judges the player in person in training camps. Carle had the opportunity and he didn’t impress. It was a pretty unfair question. Although I’ll admit that “Last time he played well was here in the A-League, that’s two years ago.” was over the top and not warranted.

  In any case Carle although playing well in English 2nd division he hasn’t standed out and played exceptionally well with exception of a few matches (Bristol city vs Sheffield). Not many assist (2) and not many goals (3). Considering that most of his midfield competitors for the national team are playing in much stronger domestic leagues. Carle will not break into national side by just playing “well” for a bottom half of a second division club. He has to be stand out for his club and the league.

  “12 months ago Pimbo said it was better to train in the German second division and sit on the bench, than play in the A-League, which is vastly inferior.”

  No at the time Nurnberg were a first division club in Germany. No one mention that it is better to train in the lower leagues of Europe then to play regularly in Australia. I mention before that Dean Heffernan was lend out to Nurnberg didn’t play at all came back to central coast and the coach was astounded how much he improve in defending and positioning. Training in the top leagues in Europe with better players may not necessary advance your career but in terms of developing your game of football it could be argued that it is better then playing regularly in the A-league.

  “Harry hardly played a game all year, but he was the first player picked in Pimbo’s team. Then he says people don’t get picked because they aren’t getting enough first team match practice.”

  You have take in many different components of a players ability such as skill, match fitness and mentaility etc. KEwell because he is the most gifted player Australia has ever produce is good enough to play for Soccerroos even without regular first team match practice. A 80% kewell is still good enough for the soccerrooos. An 80% Carney and Sterjovski is not good enough as their potential ability does not compensate for not playing regularly for the club.

  Honestly Pim Verbeek does not have to patronising enough to point out why a Kewell with limited match practice was selected and Carney and Sterjovski is at risk of getting drop. His point is that Carney and Sterjovski are good enough for the Soccerroos if playing regularly but because they are not – then Pim has other players.

  “Pimbo and Arnold won’t pick Carle no matter which team he plays for – he doesn’t fit in with the workhorse robotic defensive style of midfielders that Dutch coaches like.”

  I don’t believe Kewell or Bresciano are robotic midfielder.
  Pim main criticism is this. He believes that Nicky carle dribbles too much and doesn’t get the team involve as he should. Pim Verbeek say that Nick thinks that he has to make an “action” all the time (I assume he means dribbling or solo play) during TWG.

  NOw that may prove your point that defensive Pim doesn’t like dribblers but perhaps he has a point.

  Dutch legend Cruijff (you can’t call him a defensive, non-flair player and manager) criticising Messi year or two ago before he became a serious contender of the best player in the world – Messi has become predictable. Every time he had a ball he try to dribble past players. Defenders can adjust for that if you keep on doing that consistently. He says if you have the ball 9 out of 10 times you have to play for your team and pass the ball and try to break down the defence. Only one time out of ten do you play for yourself and try to beat players and have a solo run as doing it sparingly will makes it more effective and more difficult for defenders to adjust as they have more problems predicting your next move.

  If Carle does try to dribble too much then it can be a legitimate criticism and not just Pim is a defensive and like robotic player stereotype. IT seems to me teamwork is the main issue with Pim Verbeek. The thing is since he is not in a technical league where Carle only gets 5-10 touches. He can’t judge whether Carle has improve with that ability and the only thing he has to judge by is the training session he has with Carle which didn’t impress Pim

  There’s also another reason
  I’ll cut and paste my previous post.
  None of this is explicitly express by Pim Verbeek and is more of my opinion.

  Nick Carle is a playmaker – there to create opportunities. I believe Pim believes the likes of Bresciano, Kewells and Emerton are good enough to create chances for the Soccerroo. This makes Carle superfluous as he has alternative players playing in better clubs and leagues. Unless you want tean to play 3 playmakers (kewell, bresciano and carle) it’s fully understandable that Carle doesn’t fit in especially when both Kewell and Bresciano has better goal scoring record then carle. This leads to the next point. The only spot up for the grabs is the second striker/attacking midfielder – the Holman/Cahill position.

  Nick Carle
  Olympic 86 caps 12 goals
  Marconi Stallions 25 caps 6 goals
  Newcastle United Jets 42 caps 7 goals
  I didn’t include his european adventures as that will make Carle’s goal scoring record even worst.

  Carle has never proven to be a prolific goal scorer even in A-league levels as he does not make intelligent runs into the box and his finishing isn’t that great either (it’s the biggest criticism of his game reading from Bristol City and Crystal palace fan. I really hope Carles get its right this season).

  Excelsior Rotterdam 134 caps 39 goals
  NEC Nijmegan 59 caps 19 goals

  This is almost one goal every 3 games and is much better record then a nick carle (and a better league as well). Although it is not fantastic it is also not bad for an attacking midfielder or support striker. It shows that Holman has the POTENTIAL to score goals for Australia

  Other relevant players as well (Bresciano less then 1 goal every 4-5 games including PAlermo, Empoli and PArma, Jason Culina 1 goal every 3 games for Twente not much for PSV. Cahill 1 goal every 3-4 games for everton)

  Obviously Pim Verbeek is looking for someone who can make intelligent runs behind a forward (I’m thinking Viduka who would complement well with holman) and score goals for Australia. Tim Cahill is the best man for the job but he was injured. Bresciano is more of a creator then a goal scorer and is not a prolific scorer. Culina is an interesting options for that position considering he was successful in playing that role for Twente but nowadays he is now a holding midfielder (I’m very curious how Culina would go if given attacking freedom. I’m open to him playing as a second striker).

  Now enter Holman. He is a poor mans Cahill and he hasn’t score goals for Australia yet. However because he has the runs on the board and score goals one goal every 3 matches in Holland. Pim Verbeek is convince that eventually the intelligent runs Holman makes will eventually lead to goals.

  It is a gamble from Pim but it is not done without good justification or for no reason. He is putting faith in a player he believes has potential. He has scored at club levels and believe with time will step up at international levels. It’s very common for manager to stick up for players who are underperforming due to potential and this is what currently happening with Holman.

  ALthough people get up in arms whenever Holman missed a chance. What makes people think that Nick Carle would do any better. like I said – Nick Carle has never been a prolific goal scorer even in A-league and records show that Holman is more reliable man to stick in the back of the net then Carle.

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• October 8th 2008 @ 1:12pm
  The Bear said | October 8th 2008 @ 1:12pm | Report comment

  Pip: Didn’t stop Carney being picked, or Milligan for that matter. Carle will get games as a matter of course, but it’s merely a delaying tactic. And you bought it.

  btw, how many games is Holman starting, dasilva?

  And as for this article, by Adrian. Can we believe Pim… is his credibibilltiy intact? Good player management? Mick has made a good point. Pim has done no favours to Carle in this “Warnock retraction”.

  Graciously,
  The Bear

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• October 8th 2008 @ 1:12pm
  sledgeross said | October 8th 2008 @ 1:12pm | Report comment

  Mick, obviously Nick isnt versatile enough for “Dutch” football. Sterj and Carney can play multiple positions, whereas Nicky is a CM. Pim appears to be an honest, straight shooting bloke, I think we can agree he is forthright. I dont think he is being “severely” critical of Carle at all. Its just the Carle sycophants keep asking Pim why he isnt picked. I feel sorry for Nick, as its people driving the Carle agenda that keeps the negativity around. As I said earlier, it causes extreme polarity, people dont like to concede they could be wrong, so the debate becomes personal with only black or white, with no gray.
  Pippinu, your post is probably the most realistic and logical on here as regards a solution.

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• October 8th 2008 @ 1:22pm
  Mick of Newie said | October 8th 2008 @ 1:22pm | Report comment

  da silva
  I don’t particularly disagree with anything you say about the relative merits of the various midfielders. The point here is that Carle has done nothing to warrant such a pointed attack. Pim was out of line. If he said Henk has seen him and he doesn’t fit my plans at the moment. That would be fine, to say he hasn’t played a good game in 2 years is unnecessary, inaccurate and in my view unprofessional.

  The good news is that the player himself appears to be handling it with his usual class.

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• October 8th 2008 @ 1:58pm
  The Bear said | October 8th 2008 @ 1:58pm | Report comment

  Sledge, Nick is one of the very few players (Culina) that has proven his worth as a DCM and CAM. He absolute killed both positions at Bristol. That’s the essence of versatility, for a central midfielder.

  Mick, well said.

  Graciously,
  The Bear

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• October 8th 2008 @ 2:17pm
  jimbo said | October 8th 2008 @ 2:17pm | Report comment

  Dasilva,
  a very good analysis but subjective as always.

  I don’t like Pimbo as a football manager or as a person and yet lots of people do.
  He has his way of doing things and his agendas just like Arnold does.

  If Zico was the Socceroos manager, Carle would be one of the first players chosen and we would get a lot more entertainment for our money from the Socceroos. He’d get the results too.

  Pimbo can pick whoever he likes (after Arnold tells him) and come up with any justification he likes. He is the current Socceroos football manager and while he’s qualifying no one can take it off him.

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• October 8th 2008 @ 2:24pm
  sledgeross said | October 8th 2008 @ 2:24pm | Report comment

  Bear, while Nicky performed admirably playing deeper at Bristol, I wouldnt say he “killed it”. His tackling and positioning left alot to be desired (to be fair, I havent seen him play this year), but I recall him giving away a penalty in the playoffs, and being very lucky not to concede a second one as well in the same game as well. Having said that, he provided the assist for a key goal for City, which showed his poise with the ball. Having said that, his attacking stats, and defensive work dont really inspire your assertion that he killed both positions. I dont think I would put him in the Culina adaptability class just yet.
  Mick, I think Pim could have worded it better, but reading that I thought he meant “played consistently well”. Perhaps that would have been better to avoid confusion. Of course Nick hasnt been as dominant as he was in the A League, but he has also stepped up a footballing level, and has been forced to play in different positions. Given that, is he a better option that the other mids we have running around?
  Again though, kudos to Nick for handiling this messy situation (not of his making) with dignity and class.

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• October 8th 2008 @ 2:28pm
  dasilva said | October 8th 2008 @ 2:28pm | Report comment

  Mick
  Most of things that Pim has said has been fair. He pretty much answered all the question as honest as he can and I don’t mind in particular of manager giving players a bit of kick in the arse as a motivation to prove Pim wrong.

  However I do agree that not playing a good game in 2 years was unnecessary.

  The Bear
  I agree that Carle has proven his worth as a defensive midfielder (at English second division level). I have never had a problem with the work ethics of Nick Carle. It seems to me that Pim also drop the criticism that that he doesn’t work hard as well. Funny enough the problem with Carle right now is that he hasn’t been putting out the killer through ball and scoring goals for the club in Europe. What’s has been avoided by Carle supporters is that Carle was played as a attacking midfielder for Bristol City failed and then was reshuffled as a DM where he played well. He was then off loaded as they have many alternatives for DM, they brought Carle as an AM therefore they didn’t get what they paid for and the price was right. You may argue that the club should have been more patient and persist with Carle as an AM but Carle didn’t take the opportunity that was presented at Bristol.

  I find it funny that when people try to justify Carle selection they just assume that Carle can do through balls and score goals when he hasn’t been doing that. I’m happy if Carle is selected as a back up defensive midfielder for Australia as that’s the only thing he has proven in the time he has spent in Europe. However he is our fourth best DM after Grella, Culina and Valeri.

  Pim was actually ask how come Carle is not being selected while Sterjovski and Coyne and Carney are also playing in lower division in England. The difference with Sterjovski, Coyne and Carney. His reasoning was that we don’t have many alternatives for right winger, central defender and left back. With holman we don’t have many players other than H Kewell to play as a support striker when Cahill is injured. Therefore Pim has to select players who are not playing regularly (although with Holman, he did play regularly the season before he move clubs while Sterjovski and Carney has not.). I’m pretty curious what players Pim had in mind to replace Carney and Sterjovski if they still haven’t found a club that plays them yet.

  We are however loaded with central midfielders. That’s why playing and doing moderately well in English Second division is not good enough.

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