The black curse of Nicky Carle

By Jesse Fink
October 10th 2008 @ 1:40am

C’mon Pim. You’re a top bloke and all but it’s all getting a bit rich. To say the last time Nicky Carle played a decent game of football was in the A-League two years ago is like saying Lorenzo Lamas is one of the great male action stars of Hollywood. Give us a break.

Carle was man-of-the-match for the Socceroos against Nigeria in London in late 2007.

He has starred for Bristol City and won raves at Crystal Palace. He sits at the top of Palace’s goalscorers’ list with three goals from 12 games and has amassed on-pitch time third only to Danny Butterfield and Clint Hill, the only other player on Palace’s 33-man roster to start every match this season.

Even Palace’s manager Neil Warnock has said: “He was one of the best players in the Championship last season.”

Would Palace pay $2 million for someone who was crap?

Palace’s thump-it-and-pray-for-the-best style of football might not suited to Carle’s undoubted abilities, but since when were clubs supposed to be 100 per cent tailor-made for players?

It’s the player who must adapt to the club.

The ball might be flying over his head more often than he would like, but at least the bloke is playing for his club and got his gaffer’s unqualified and fulsome support.

Mile Sterjovski is signed to but doesn’t play for Derby yet hitherto that hasn’t stopped him from being picked by Verbeek for a run in the green and gold.

Up until his position became untenable, Verbeek was offering the same get-out-of-jail-free card to Mark “Where’s Wally” Milligan.

The argument is flawed, the reasoning faintly ludicrous.

Possibly our national coach said it just to get a rise out of Carle’s supporters, which include me.

I’m not about to rehash any of my theories about Carle and why he could be valuable to the national team, but what I fear most about Carle’s continued and baffling exclusion from the Socceroos is that it’s sending a message to young players who might ever want to play for Australia that flair is not wanted; if you’re gonna try something special with the ball, go home.

If you wanna play like Ruben Zadkovich, however, step up. Come to papa.

Flair players are a dying breed around the world and the number we have in this country could be counted on one hand.

With our stocks so low, is a player like Carle really that dispensable?

I don’t give a stuff what anyone says: Carle is one of our most gifted players and he deserves a lot more love than he’s getting at the moment from Verbeek and his coaching staff.

I’m as tired as you are reading this as I am writing it but the curse of Nicky Carle is becoming farcical.

One friend of mine, a respected football historian, joked to me during the week that he must have slept with someone’s missus; that Carle’s malaise reminded him of one our more naturally talented cricketers of recent times (I won’t name him), who played less Tests for his country than he probably should have.

The fact he exposed himself at a team barbecue had a lot to do with it, not his ability or form.

Whatever Carle’s personal relationship with Verbeek, Henk Duut, Graham Arnold, Tony Franken and everyone else in the FFA inner circle, let’s hope that isn’t coming into play when they select their teams.

Australian football, and Australian football fans, are being robbed of seeing one of our great talents.

Verbeek could at least name Carle in a provisional squad, something to which he should be a walk-up starter, and not play him. It would be some encouragement.

Just as he’s giving to the clutch of Adelaide United players still in the 28 named for the October 15 clash with Qatar.

But he’s not even giving him that.

I suspect the truth about this whole saga has a lot more to do with the coaching and cultural background of Verbeek and Duut than it does Carle.

So head’s up, Nicky: you’re not doing anything wrong and you’re not being forgotten.

Jesse Fink's columns now appear every Wednesday and Friday on The Roar.

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Midfielder said | October 10th 2008 @ 7:41am | Report comment

Jes ………. you must have something else to talk about ………. dare I say AU’s win is worth a comment.

Yourself & SBS have been flying high and pushing very hard the Nicky and this blitz of media comment by SBS demanded a frank an honest response by PIM when Fozza asked him …….. “what about Nicky it isn’t fair all that love and he should get his share”

Its time to move on ………. as I have said before if Nicky was the player you talk of he would not be in the English second division side.

I have seen Nicky play a lot in the NSL, A-League and in the Olyroos. In the Olyroos he was the second half spark against NZ at Parrmatta stadium that won us the match ……… in the NSL he was great ………. In the A-League he disappointed me and against the Mariners he never got on top or opened the defense up …….. Nicky was not the best CM in the A-League.

I have not seen Nicky play after he left the A-League ……… however two things ….first your thread implies a anti Nicky bias and thereby a weakness in the national coach …….. say that if that is what you think. Second many of the CM’s in the Australian side are playing in the champion league big call to drop them.

In closing it’s your call it’s your thread but I have moved on and I don’t see the same player you do …… and I believe I appreciate skill in a player ……… So if I was Nicky I would make as much money as I could and set myself up for life …… and when he gets picked prove he is worth it.

Pippinu said | October 10th 2008 @ 7:55am | Report comment

OMG - not Nicky Carle again!!

dasilva said | October 10th 2008 @ 8:06am | Report comment

ahhhhhhhhh

Another Nicky Carle article

Bloody hell there is already another article one day before that started a huge debate

sigh
Do I have to defend Pim for not selecting Carle again.

The Bear said | October 10th 2008 @ 8:06am | Report comment

OMG… Pip saying OMG-not Nick Carle again!

Anyways, i just wanted to say that. Oh and that Midfielder, THAT league is not a dirty word. It suited Timmy Cahill for several seasons… and he got picked for the Socceroos on the form and game time he acquired there. Tut tut.

Graciously,
The Bear

Mick of Newie said | October 10th 2008 @ 8:19am | Report comment

Jes
We did this one to death 2 days ago. We may think Nick is judged by some higher standard but I hope/believe sometime soon Pim will be forced to pick Nick because he has worked hard and continues to play well. I look forward to the day and when it happens Nick will know he deserves it.

dasilva said | October 10th 2008 @ 8:25am | Report comment

Jesse Fink - I hope you read this as most people here on the roar has read this - I copy this from a previous thread
Pim main criticism is this. He believes that Nicky carle dribbles too much and doesn’t get the team involve as he should. Pim Verbeek say that Nick thinks that he has to make an “action” all the time (I assume he means dribbling or solo play) during TWG.

NOw that may prove your point that defensive Pim doesn’t like dribblers but perhaps he has a point.

Dutch legend Cruijff (you can’t call him a defensive, non-flair player and manager) criticising Messi year or two ago before he became a serious contender of the best player in the world - Messi has become predictable. Every time he had a ball he try to dribble past players. Defenders can adjust for that if you keep on doing that consistently. He says if you have the ball 9 out of 10 times you have to play for your team and pass the ball and try to break down the defence. Only one time out of ten do you play for yourself and try to beat players and have a solo run as doing it sparingly will makes it more effective and more difficult for defenders to adjust as they have more problems predicting your next move.

If Carle does try to dribble too much then it can be a legitimate criticism and not just Pim is a defensive and like robotic player stereotype (if Messi can be criticise by Cruijff for dribbling too much so can Carle be criticise by Pim Verbeek) . IT seems to me teamwork and decision making is the main concern with Pim Verbeek. The thing is since he is not in a technical league where Carle only gets 5-10 touches. He can’t judge whether Carle has improve with that ability and the only thing he has to judge by is the training session he has with Carle which didn’t impress Pim.

True Tah said | October 10th 2008 @ 9:13am | Report comment

Jessie,

you really must love Nicky Carle, I don’t know if you are married, but if you are, is your wife baffled or worried by this seeming adoration of Nick?

To be honest, Im only really aware of Nicky via the Roar, he would not be a futbol player familiar to the majority of Australians, like Tim Cahill, Viduka, Neill, Aloisi, etc

Do you believe he should be up there with those players?

Koala Bear said | October 10th 2008 @ 9:36am | Report comment

Jesse wrote: Carle was man-of-the-match for the Socceroos against Nigeria in London in late 2007.

Jesse,
110% with you on this one; the disgraceful treatment that Nicky is receiving from our 2nd rate national manager.. Oh did I say second rate.. ? My mistake 3rd rate; his ill-conceived comments about Nicky Carle’s ability or worth in a Socceroo jersy are what you get from a manager who just does not understand what a player like Nicky can bring to a team ..

Interesting to note that, it was Rob Baan the technical director who gave him a shot in London and then no more Nicky.. If I was a conspiracy theorist; one could say that, Pimbo is keeping Nicky out of contention to prevent Rob Baan from taking the managerial post of the Socceroos ..

That would be funny if this whole rediculous saga, of Pimbo’s reluctance, of giving Nicky a fair go was not true.. Sack Pimbo and let’s get an Australian coach in to replace him .. If we could not have had a world class European manager, then we should employ an Australian .. Paul Okon; Gary Van Egmond; Alex Tobin; Aurelio Vidmar; please speak out lads, the whole Pimbo’s crap style is killing all the good work achieved in 2006…

~~~~~~~~
KB

Midfielder said | October 10th 2008 @ 9:45am | Report comment

Bear

My comment on the league was more if Nicky was that good he would not be in that league …………. BTW Timmy is not in that league anymore.

Nicky is a very gifted player with something most players do not have have ……. that is touch and space awareness at levels better than most which allow him to open up a team and lay off some brilliant passes. I am a long time Nicky fan ……… but in CM we have a lot of talented players and any midfield needs to be balanced with attacking and defensive players…….. players with speed and so on. Nicky is that attacking mid and Australia has Kool, Bresh, Timmy C, Jason Cullina, who all are attacking mids do I think Nicky is better than the these four ……… well no ………… is he a great player ……. well yes……… also there are a number of new attacking mids starting to press as well for a spot …….. Holland, Kurise, Burns, …….QLD have some new wiz lid called Oar everyone is talking about ……… so its hard to get an attacking mid position in the Australian squad.

The Bear said | October 10th 2008 @ 9:59am | Report comment

Midfielder, thanks for the response, but i would suggest that Timmy was “stuck” at Millwall for quite a few seasons. And he won his first cap after his stellar perfromances with the Lions. Cut to Bristol Palace c.07-08. Carle’s getting first team football, consistently, in one of the better leagues (better than HAL) in the world.

Cahill praises Carle, we all know that. Will Carle pull himself into Socceroos contention, again? I bet Timmy is giving Nicky all the encouragement, despite your (and Verbeek’s?) protestations.

Tony in Canberra said | October 10th 2008 @ 10:05am | Report comment

Oh, for god’s sake, Jesse…

Waaaay back in the fox sports days I said Carle takes 1 touch too many, and he still does. If he was the flair player who is the saviour of Australian Football, he’d be doing it away from Crystal Palace, maybe even at Fulham or Stoke, at the least in the Premiership or somewhere elase of a high standard.

I like Richard Garcia. To me, he offers more than Carle and is proving at a higher level than Carle is.

The Bear said | October 10th 2008 @ 10:22am | Report comment

http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/10/08/verbeek-sets-record-straight-on-carle/
fyi jesse.

And lol, Tony. You like Garcia … how many games have you seen of him? And how is that relevant, when he plays a completely different role than Nicky does? And in any case would you still be singing Garcia’s praises if Hull lost out in the Promotion battle ?

i don’ think so.

Midfielder said | October 10th 2008 @ 10:43am | Report comment

Maybe your right …….. I don’t have Fox and can go by media reports only, as I said in my earlier post I have nor seen Nicky aside from his Socceroo games since he left the A-League.

I have also read media stories that Nicky has been picked for Australia and said no……. the China is one game where Nicky is said to have said he is to busy ……… no idea if these media reports are correct but if true he has had chances but knocked them back ………. no one even Jes has said they are not true.

In closing I hope if he is good enough he is chosen but equally if he is not good enough then I hope a media campaign to play the South American way would not get him a place. Time will tell if he is as good as many suggest then next season he will be playing in a first division team somewhere.

Cpaaa said | October 10th 2008 @ 10:51am | Report comment

you wrote this because, Pim had chosen Milligan and Sterjovski (who havnt been playing AT ALL) and Pim saying that Carle needs more game practice and then move clubs. it seems Dutch Pim has been a little hypocritical. Duut said he had watched carle get 5 touches. perhaps a bad game to have made a judgement.

never has a player gotten so much attention for not being chosen, and most of that reason is because of the JF, followed by other websites and media.
NCarle a Johny Warren medalist certainly needs to work even harder for his club to prove his worth.
Jess you certainly feel strongly about the inclusion of NC to the socceroos and you are not the only one.
unlike traditional journos you dont just sweep it under the carpet and move away. so until NC wears or is at least given a fair chance in green and gold we will all carry the name of Nicky Carle in the back of our football minds, whether we agree or not..

Millster said | October 10th 2008 @ 11:23am | Report comment

While I love your work Jesse and usually agree with your calls (including by the way with your liking for Nicky Carle) I am starting to drift in the same direction as Midfielder’s last paragraph above. We’ve all got the message, and Carle gets a stunning amount of attention for a non-selected sometime-Socceroo who plays in the Championship. So knowing that his name is surely printed on the minds of Verbeek and Baan due to this attention, lets move on for a while and see where this player’s destiny takes him.

Also begs the question - what other seldom or never selected Aussies abroad have real talent and deserve maybe more of a look-in than they get in terms of the national picture? Coyne came out of nowhere… Carle is a talent in the Championship… surely there is a half dozen more real bright sparks languishing around that could potentially be handy if managed right…

The Bear said | October 10th 2008 @ 12:03pm | Report comment

Millster, i believe another striker could be worth a go… Richard Porta, for example. But he plays in Portugal now (after a less than fruitful time in Serie A, it must be said).

So on that basis, perhaps he won’t get a look in, after all.

fatboi-v- said | October 10th 2008 @ 1:32pm | Report comment

i confess to be a nicky carle groupie and i closely followed his form for both bristol city and crystal palace and by all accounts he is having a great season. i find pim’s reasons behind not playing carle very puzzling. if he is telling carle he needs to change his game and the way he plays to fit into his system well then i hope nicky never changes how he plays. he plays with flair, a sense of adventure and free spirt, dare and oozes creativity. if i as the aussie coach id go for a 4-1-4-1 formation:

……………………..schwarzer………………………….
wilshire………neill……….spiranovic….chippps ..
………………………culina………………………………..
emerton…….carle……….cahill……………kewell..
………………………kennedy……………………………

emerton/kewell to alternate between wingers and second striker ie, come inside when the other is on the wings
carle to play in the hole but just roam around the edge of penalty box. cahill to make late runs into box

this team might let in 1 goal a game but will definately created enough chances to score 3-4 every game.

Greg Russell said | October 10th 2008 @ 1:47pm | Report comment

Jesse,

Let me be the hundredth respondent to say: give it a break, mate! You write really excellent stuff, but Nicky Carle is getting beyond tiresome as a subject. We all know that you are right in theory and we all also know that Pim, with the his impressive winning record with the Socceroos, is right in practice. If the lads start losing then you would have grounds to keep demanding Carle’s selection, but with the results that the Socceroos are notching up, it’s hard to argue with what Pim is doing.

The pragmatism versus beauty debate is one that always rages in football. When I lived in Germany in the early 90s there was a guy called Mario Basler who was universally acknowledged as the best ball player in the country but who, like Carle, was rarely selected, and thus was the subject of endless debate. Every Brazilian fan will tell you about some brilliant Brazilian ball-player whom the national coach is stupidly ignoring. Debate always raged about whether gifted players like Hoddle, Sheringham, del Piero and R Baggio were being appropriately used by their national managers. It seems to me almost de rigueur that football fans must have such a rallying point at any given time. Carle it is for us at the moment.

As for the selection of the 5 Adelaide new boys, that just continues Pim’s policy of looking around. Another consistent policy is that he only flies out players from Europe if he really intends to use them. This makes sense, as a sure way to get offside with a European coach is to fly a player across the world and back just to sit in the grandstand. So Pim is actually doing the right thing by Carle and Warnock; it is silly to suggest that he should put Carle in the squad just to encourage him.

jimbo said | October 10th 2008 @ 1:58pm | Report comment

All those if favour say Aye!

Right, the Aye’s have it.

I think there’s some truth in the comment that Pimbo is doing it on purpose to get a rise out of all his detractors.
He’s the sort of person to do it, isn’t he.

Slippery Jim said | October 10th 2008 @ 2:19pm | Report comment

Finally Jesse has got some recent stats that, if not exactly favouring Carle, are certainly making him look OKish. I notice Jesse steered well away from any stats since he left Newcastle, the reason being obviously, as Pim says, he has had a slump in form since then and is only just starting to recover some form. Still not Socceroos material, though. Yet.

Ben of Phnom Penh said | October 10th 2008 @ 2:49pm | Report comment

One issue for Carle is that Pim tends to play with two of the midfielders in more holding/controlling roles which leaves only one creative/attacking central midfield position if a single striker is employed. The primary lack of depth appears to be on the offensive left as the Wilkshire/Emerton combination appears to own the right, so the question is as to whether Nicky is able to play that wide role on the left. This may also be part of the reason for the concerns over Carney’s game time.

My main concern at this stage is that Carle’s omission from the larger squad is signaling a more defensive approach to the Qatar game where I think we really need to stamp our authority with a more aggressive approach. Still, it is Pim’s call and at this stage the results are doing his talking for him.

Slippery Jim said | October 10th 2008 @ 2:59pm | Report comment

The Bear, you challenge Tony to state how many games he has seen of Garcia, but be honest, have you been watching all of Nicky Carle’s games for Crystal Palace, and before that for Bristol City and Gençlerbirliği or are you still reminiscing about his halcyon days in Newcastle? I can’t see how anyone who watches Nick Carle play lately can say he is anywhere approaching as good a player as Cahill, Bresciano, Kewell, or even Scott McDonald or Garcia, in terms of having an effective impact on the games he plays. Besides he is playing for Crystal Palace, a club 18th on the table with a negative goal difference.

As of the latest figures (collated yesterday) from the Actim index, the official statisticians for the EPL and EFL, although 4 Crystal Palace players are in the top 100 players in the Championship this season, none of them is Nick Carle, so clearly he still has a lot of work to do to live up to what is, quite frankly, his completely overrated reputation.

http://actimindex.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/champ_index_top1001.gif

For those dubious about these kind of stats, the following info may be of interest:

“What is the purpose of the Actim Index?
It identifies the players who make key contributions.
It allows players to be ranked against each other at random or using such criteria as playing position, nationality, age, or geographical location of their team.
It highlights the key players in a league or team.
It shows the form of a player or team.
Individual player/team performances can be scientifically analysed over a season or period of time within a season.
It provides fans with the knowledge of who is the best.
How accurate is the Actim Index?
The calculations are based on the six key factors that contribute to a player’s effectiveness and his ability to help his team win matches.

The formulae were devised through analysis of hundreds of games since the start of the English Premier League in 1992 and have been statistically proven to measure a player’s effectiveness in winning matches.

How is the Actim Index calculated?
Complex mathematical formulae were devised to calculate the value of each player’s contribution, match by match. In simple terms, the Actim Index comprises four calculations:

Calculation 1 - Assesses a player’s contribution to a winning team, based on points won by the team when he appeared.
Calculation 2 - Assesses a player’s performance in each game, by allocating points for actions that positively contribute to a winning performance such as shots, tackles, clearances and saves. It also takes points away from players for negative actions such as yellow/red cards and shots off target.
Calculation 3 - Allocates points based on time on the pitch.
Calculation 4 - Allocates points for goal scorers.
Calculation 5 - Allocates points for assists.
Calculation 6 - Allocates points for clean sheets.

Is there a subjective element to the Actim Index? Do you award points for entertainment value?
The Actim Index only includes actions that can be measured objectively. Skill, passion and flair are subjective factors so they are not included in the rating system.”

dasilva said | October 10th 2008 @ 3:14pm | Report comment

The Bear

You have been avoiding the fact that NIck Carle hasn’t even have a full season for a single club yet.

For Crystal Palace - so he is one of the best performing player in the team however he only played for that side for like 12 games. Should we select player based on 12 matches in Europe. Other players have been performing at higher divisions for a longer time. He has to gets more of a run and actually have a strong full season under his belt before he can demand being selected because Nick CArle has not have a strong full season in his entire career in Europe yet. (last year he barely played for the Turkey side before playing moderately well for Bristol city. I don’t think that counts)

Cahill was playing for Millwalls for many seasons before he was selected to the Soccerroos. Carle has to perform consistently for a similar amount of time before he can even think of being selected. This year is a make or break year for Carle and I hope he takes it.

Cpaaa
“Pim had chosen Milligan and Sterjovski”
Pim explanation is that we have a lack of depth in these position ( you could also add Carney and Coyne as well) so he is willing to gamble on players with lack of match practice. He says that Carle’s position of CM is more competitive and he has many more alternative.

So you may disagree with his opinion but I don’t believe he is being hypocritical.

Tony in Canberra said | October 10th 2008 @ 3:17pm | Report comment

The Bear - All I’m saying is that I like Garcia. And he seems to play a role suited to what Pim likes, so he has more to offer. And just so you know, I’ve been keeping an eye on him since he was at Colchester when he was a striker…

I like Nick Carle as well, but it’s difficult to be agitating for him to be in the team when we are performing well at the moment. Maybe he will come in if we need to unlock tight Japanese defences and/or our campaign gets a bit wobbly (touch wood).

But I do agree with Greg Russell’s point - at least Carle isn’t getting dragged halfway round the world to then be cut.

Tony in Canberra said | October 10th 2008 @ 3:22pm | Report comment

One other thing Jesse is totally out of order on - Lorenzo Lamas was unappreciated and underrated. Personally, I don’t know where I’d be if I had never learned the lessons of life from Renegade and Johnny Sixkiller…

dasilva said | October 10th 2008 @ 3:24pm | Report comment

Slippery Jim
I’m not too sure about Actim

I think for one season every was raving about the form of Gerrard but according to that system he was like the 20-30 best midfielder in the league.

md said | October 10th 2008 @ 3:25pm | Report comment

Jesse,
I just want to congratulate you on your commitment to recycling.
Cheers
md.

Slippery Jim said | October 10th 2008 @ 3:30pm | Report comment

dasilva, Gerrard is highly overrated. Your comment only makes me more confident that Actim is accurate - I’m sure you know my feelings about Liverpool in general lol!

Jethro said | October 10th 2008 @ 3:58pm | Report comment

“I suspect the truth about this whole saga has a lot more to do with the coaching and cultural background of Verbeek and Duut than it does Carle.”

And what does ‘cultural background’ have to do with things, exactly..? That is some slanderously strong opinion to be voicing openly, Jesse.

Dave said | October 10th 2008 @ 4:05pm | Report comment

Jesse

All coaches have their own reasoning and preferences…at this stage NC’s type of play is not required by PV. Next topic…

dasilva said | October 10th 2008 @ 4:09pm | Report comment

Maybe overrated but not in the top 30 midfielder in the EPL?

The Bear said | October 10th 2008 @ 4:44pm | Report comment

Slippery, i’ll let you and dasilva duke this one out. And dasilva, Nicky has been floating around since the Jets to a degree, surely that makes his case even stronger. However, like Cahill did at Millwall, he has some time to pull himself up by his boot-straps, and get a decent chance to prove his worth (again).

And Tony, you weren’t “only” saying you like Garcia… you were comparing the two players, which is unfair, cos as you rightly pointed out, Garcia is a direct attacker and ball carrier. For what it’s worth, i’d rather Garcia take Holman’s spot.

Much alarmist Jethro…It may be while that Nick can sway Pim’s attitudes, tho…as we all know of Pim’s cultural preferences (defensive, tacitly dutch tactics and holman type players). Sue me too, lol.

Thanks for your thoughts, and “perspective”,Greg.

Slippery Jim said | October 10th 2008 @ 4:51pm | Report comment

dasilva, an independant ranking of EPL players was done here in May 2007:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/fink_tank/article1852016.ece

Gerrard was ranked 80th.

Lampard by the way was ranked second behind Ronaldo who was first.

Their method of calculation is explained here at the original Fink Tank at the timesonline:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/fink_tank/article1851667.ece

It basically measures which players were most effective in helping their club win points. A very pragmatic approach I’m sure Pim would approve of!

fatboi-v- said | October 10th 2008 @ 5:00pm | Report comment

brett holman. socceroo’s chief playmaker in the hole. 18 games in the national shirt. 1 goal. (tap in into an open net in friendly vs china). is this good enough for our national team? how the abilities of a nicky carle can be overlooked in favour of this huffing and puffing headless chook, is worthy of a royal commission.

for all our kids who are playing small sided games and need a hero to aspire to, we need nicky carle. we as a footballing nation need to put our faith into beautiful flair football. pim verbleak you are an idiot.

Slippery Jim said | October 10th 2008 @ 5:01pm | Report comment

dasilva, I have posted a link to another mathematical statistic that shows done for timesonline (it should appear after editors OK it). It shows Gerrard as 80th in the top EPL players list. Ronaldo was first (as of May 2007) and Lampard second.

dasilva said | October 10th 2008 @ 5:11pm | Report comment

fatboi-v-

Nick Carle
Olympic 86 caps 12 goals
Marconi Stallions 25 caps 6 goals
Newcastle United Jets 42 caps 7 goals

Holman
Excelsior Rotterdam 134 caps 39 goals
NEC Nijmegan 59 caps 19 goals

Holman has been very underwhelming for the Soccerroos granted
Nevertheless what makes you think that Nick Carle is more likely to get in the back of the net then Holman. Holman has scored almost 1 goal in every 3 games in holland. Carle record is much worst record and in a lower league.

Carle may be technically superior to Holman but when it comes to getting to scoring opportunities and finishing stats show that Holman is far more reliable. If you read what is the biggest criticism of Carle from Bristol City supporters is that his finishing is not up to scratch and was part of the reason why they play him as a DM.

The Bear said | October 10th 2008 @ 5:15pm | Report comment

Round and round we ALL go.

Carle is not a striker, as Holman is, dasilva.

dasilva said | October 10th 2008 @ 5:26pm | Report comment

maybe not
but fatboi is using that argument to discredit Holman.

The Bear said | October 10th 2008 @ 5:34pm | Report comment

dasilva, the argument is sound, but it is one that doesn’t help Nicky’s cause. Unless you believe that an unhealthy fixation on playing a lone striker with Holman in “support” is pushing out a natural playmaker role from coming into the calculations for Pim. And if that is a cultural swipe at Pim, and deemed slanderous, Jethro, then ..ooops!

dasilva said | October 10th 2008 @ 5:36pm | Report comment

The bear

My honest opinion of things

I don’t like Holman
He has been given a shot and he failed. He played well for like two matches (Qatar and Holland) but he hasn’t played well regularly and its time to try someone else or at least try to make him fight hard to return to the Soccerroos.

I’m actually a fan of Nick Carle. The most memorable moment of the A-league was his performance against Adelaide in the preliminary finals where he split open the Adelaide defence many times and due to poor finishing, Carle was denied a perfectly well earnt opportunity to play in the grand final. I was there at Hindmarsh and I felt privilege to watch that performance. I believe he should be given a shot at the very least as a bench or impact player for the Soccerroos.

I just don’t like this Holman bashing and overexuberant Carle praised like it was inexcusable he was selected in the first place or that there is no good reason why Holman was selected in front of Carle. It was pefectly logical and reasonable why Holman was selected in front of Carle. I may not necessary agree with it and the decision may not actually has work according to plan but to claim that it is one of the great mysteries of the cosmos as Jesse Fink done in the past is doing Pim Verbeek and Brett Holman a huge disservice and disrespect.

dasilva said | October 10th 2008 @ 5:47pm | Report comment

The fact is what Pim has done with Holman is expected a player with goal scoring record of a goal every 3 games to score goals for the Soccerroos. It didn’t work out as sometimes coaching decisions don’t. It’s like Chelsea buying Shevchenko (ok I’m not saying Holman as Shevchenko) expecting him to score goals but ended up failed to. However there was no reason at the time to expect that both would have failed.

The Bear said | October 10th 2008 @ 6:34pm | Report comment

dasilva, the reason Holman is getting canned so much, is somewhat due to the persistence Pim has for this “system”. At the almost total exclusion of a 442, many find it unacceptable. And i reckon you probably feel the same. No dramas with Holman (i’d like to see Garcia play that role as an alternative for a change, btw)… but Pim needs to go back to the drawing board, methinks.

Anyhoo, til next time.

Tony in Canberra said | October 10th 2008 @ 6:40pm | Report comment

Hey The Bear
Would you still be saying that about Garcia if Hull had lost the relegation battle?

I don’t think so…

Slippery Jim said | October 10th 2008 @ 6:41pm | Report comment

Most of the best clubs in the world no longer use 442, it has become somewhat archaic, you will find many employ a flexible 433 or 451 formation.

Pippinu said | October 10th 2008 @ 7:06pm | Report comment

sj
To follow up on your point - what amazes me is that blog after blog (not here, but right across the blogosphere), retain an expectation that Pim will go with some sort of 442 - but these days, this is a rarity at international level.

It’s not out of the question that he might surprise us, all good coaches will occasionally surprise, but the strong likelihood is that we won’t see 442 against Qatar, and as you say, it will be some variant of 451 (and good ol’ 4-2-3-1 is never too far away).

In fact, only in the last 24 hours I have tried to explain to some young dudes that it is one million to one that Pim would go with a diamond 4, with Culina playing sole holding midfielder - forget about it boys, it ain’t going to happen! The logic appeared to be that with both Grella and Valeri out, he’ll plonk Culina there on his lonesome - impossible!

It’s possible that people still have in their memory the 3-0 home win we had against Qatar some 12 months ago (and from memory, we did see something approximating 442 back then) - but things have changed considerably - it’s a different Qatar team - and in the end, Pim is a cautious manager, and he understands that qualification is earned over the journey, not on a single night.

Now, if we are going to go with a 4-2-3-1, (with Culina partnered with any one of Wilkshire, Burns or Jedi), then one sees the problem immediately, Carle has not yet shown a capacity to play that central attacking role behind one striker, especially when these days, that person is expected to track back and help out. We all know Cahill can do it at the highest level (does it week in, week out), and he will be the one doing that role.

Where does Holman fit in? If Pim is feeling extra cautious, he’ll give Holman one of the wide roles with instructions to harass - we all know he can do that - it’s ugly - but Pim will be thinking first about restricting Qatar and second about scoring once or twice - and that’s more than enough.

People might be mightily pissed off if Sterj got a start - but to be honest - the last time he got a start - he looked damn good.

dasilva said | October 10th 2008 @ 7:37pm | Report comment

The system wasn’t really the problem. The problem was that Holman missed a lot of chances. He got into a lot of good positions and then stuff up. That shows that the system was working as Holman was involve in a lot of the play and then got into scoring possition. THe problem was that his faith in Holman was misplaced. However there was no way of knowing that Holman would have consistently missed chances when his club form was very good. I think it’s a mental problem with Holman that he just freezes when the pressure is on.

I’ll concede that although choosing Holman in the beginning had merit and was a good idea to try. When Holman continued time after time to miss chances it was time to change and try something else.

However Pim choose to persist with Holman as he obviously rates him. It’s a gamble and it’s a gamble I wouldn’t made as I would have probably offloaded Holman already. Nevertheless it’s a gamble I respect (as it has some merit) and it could turn out to be the decision where Pim reputation would live or die upon. Time will tell

Jethro said | October 10th 2008 @ 7:52pm | Report comment

@The Bear

Shoot the messenger, eh? How original. And disingenuous. Jesse by another name, perhaps??

jimbo said | October 10th 2008 @ 9:00pm | Report comment

Jesse,
thanks for taking up the Nicky Carle cause. He certainly hasn’t done anything wrong and is not being forgotten.
Over the years we have had a few talented Aussies who have been overlooked by managers for one reason or another and I hope Nick will again one day play for the Socceroos.

If you want to send an email to the FFA the email address is
info@footballaustralia.com.au
to comment on Carle’s omission or any general queries about football in Australia.

Gregor said | October 10th 2008 @ 9:24pm | Report comment

Credit to you for getting a healhy debate going, but enough already about Nicky. Let him earn his strips in the Championship, maybe he can force his way into the NT in due course. I am happy to trust Pim’s judgment about Nicky, and at least he has sent his assistant to watch a few of Nicky’s recent games, it is not that he is being totally ignored. I do think your continued championing of the player without a proper justification will do his cause more harm than good in the long run.

Midfielder said | October 11th 2008 @ 12:10am | Report comment

Dasilva / Fatboi-v- / Jes

There is a player you have all overlooked …….. plenty of midfield experience ………. gets plenty of park time. Has won a number of cups in recent years. Next year is vice caption of a team in the world masters world cup.

If you haven’t guessed its me ……….I play a very good holding mid role and my pass in the grand final just opened up the defence and we scored and won 1 nil with 1 minute to go in extra time.

So Jes bugger Nick …….. come and watch me next year in the 2009 world masters ……. You can write about me …….. KB can come and be your co support for my inclusion in the team.

dasilva said | October 11th 2008 @ 7:36am | Report comment

Midfielder

So you can do defence splitting pass
You know with Nick Carle that doesn’t mean jack with Pim

The Bear said | October 11th 2008 @ 9:13am | Report comment

Jethro, meh. People in glass houses should not throw stones. You see, I have a few abstract adages of my own. Unfortunately, Jesse has all the best ones.

Pip, lol, Pim’s wingback-esque system is quite obvious. But when (dasilva) the “system” relies on Holman to be a pivot and the finisher. It’s fairly much academic that we will struggle.

So my question is what would Pim play this week if everyone was available (excepting Dukes) as when Australia beat Qatar 3-0 as we did at the Tel Dome? A diamond in midfield, with two up front…again?

Tony, touche! Nice touch, but you are deflating your own argument with that coy little swing…

fatboi-v- said | October 11th 2008 @ 9:19am | Report comment

midfielder, ever since paul okon i have longed for a midfield general who has the ability for the defence splitting pass/through ball and i hope you are our answer.

Question to Jesse Fink: do you think nick carle needs to play in another position to get into the national team? where do you see his strengths being used best?

I ask this because of Spain’s team in the Euro championships. They went with 2 holding midfielders (Xavi and Senna - a passer and destroyer) with two out and out strikers (Villa, Torres) supported by two wide attackers who both drifted in (Iniesta, Silva). It was only late in the tournament that Fabregas started (replacing the injured Villa) and he assumed a third central midfield spot, slotting in just in front of the two others. Iniesta and Silva are arguably the most creative, skillful and most nicky carle-like of the spanish team and it was interesting to see how they were used.

considering the world-wide trend of doing away with a genuine playmaker in the hole, perhaps nicky carle’s best position for the nationa team is that wide attacking forward role where he would start out wide but as the play develops, he would be given licence to drift in to the ‘hole’ and create.

another position i’ve fathomed for nicky is Centre Forward. before people start bashing me, let me remind you that the great Mark Viduka hardly scored for the national team but was applaued for his ability to create, hold up the ball and bring others into the game. Nicky is the best current socceroo with these skills. why not use nicky carle as the focal point of the attack, let him present for the ball (as he is not great in the air, perhaps this will kill off the ‘hoof it in the air to the lone striker’ tactics) and let him lay off neat balls to a emerton, kewell, holman (ewwww) etc running past. We saw during his newcastle jets days how exception he was with his BACK TO GOAL. time and time again he would be strongly marked by a defender, yet he’d have the skill, touch and strength to maintain possession of the ball and MAKE SOMETHING HAPPEN.

i desperately want to see nicky back in the green and gold. but i suspect that there is something personal between Pim and Nick. and pim is just using silly talk like bagging his club crystal palace etc to deflect the real issue.

Slippery Jim said | October 11th 2008 @ 9:35am | Report comment

“Nicky is the best current socceroo with these skills.”
Dear me, I nearly sprayed my morning coffee all over the place when I read that one - hilarious, well donefatboi-v.
Oh, were you serious?
And you add to the hilarity by saying Pim should turn Nick Carle into either a winger or a centre forward, based on his form for Newcastle Jets all those years ago? Dear oh dear, you are having a jolly weekend aren’t you.
I’m sure you have already emailed these strategic to the FFA using Jimbo’s link? I’m sure they will recognize you for the strategic goldmine that you are.
It’s a shame they have an experienced professional looking after getting us to 2010, otherwise we could put you and Jesse in charge of the Socceroos and then after you fail miserably with Nick Carle up forward, the media could hound you from pillar to post until you agree to a public shaming by Craig “Falling Down” Foster on SBS.

The Bear said | October 11th 2008 @ 9:45am | Report comment

Oh dear, Slippery has gone to “troll town”.

dasilva said | October 11th 2008 @ 10:30am | Report comment

If holman scored half the chances he was given no one would have been arguing about the system. It was perfectly reasonable for Pim to think he would have scored.

in any case Slippery Jim
I heard that Warnock tried to convert Carle in to a winger this season and Carle’s best match for Bristol City last year where he was man of the match was against Sheffield United where he played in the wings. He didn’t do much after that but you never know. If Carle works hard on it then its not inconceivable for him to be a decent converted winger.

Slippery Jim said | October 11th 2008 @ 11:36am | Report comment

‘Gone to troll town’ have I, The Bear?

I thought I was simply stating my genuine (and long held and well-known) opinions.

I notice you haven’t accused, say, fatboi-v of trolling when he called Pim an idiot and Holman a ‘huffing and puffing headless chook’.

That would be because you agree with him.

As you do not seem to understand what trolling means, the following is directly from Wikipedia:

“Genuine dissent is not trolling. Trolling, defined, is not simply disagreeing with your opinion or the collective site opinion. Merely having a different opinion and stating it differently from how you would like does not constitute “trolling”…Having honest and frequently passionate discussions of the issues is an imperative, if we are to obtain a progressive movement marked with actual successes…They are only trolling when they are motivated by a program of malice rather than ignorance or bias. This requires a judgment of the personal motivation for another’s action. Such a judgment can never be made with anything approaching certainty. This fact should always be kept in mind when one is tempted to label someone a troll.
Application of the term troll is highly subjective. Some readers may characterize a post as trolling, while others may regard the same post as a legitimate contribution to the discussion, even if controversial. Often, calling someone a troll makes assumptions about a writer’s motives…The term is often used to discredit an opposing position, or its proponent, by argument fallacy ad hominem. Trolling is an accusation levelled at anyone with whom the accuser disagrees. People who feel their position is threatened by another will try to undermine that persons point of view by ad hominem attacks like ‘you are a troll’.”

I hope that clears it up for you. Notice, too that the actual act of labelling someone else a troll can be considered trolling in itself.

From your behaviour to date, TB, I would have to agree with Jethro - you are often disingenuous.

Since I have been around football forums for years now, and have consistent and genuine views on matters such as the great Nick Carle debate, I can hardly be called a troll, and I assure you that in person I am just as outspoken as I am online. I can’t remember you being around all that long, TB, and while I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, your comments ‘bear’ closer scrutiny in future, as your words often have the hollow ring of insincerity.

Sorry for the off-topic post, however I am not prepared to be labelled a troll.

fatboi-v- said | October 11th 2008 @ 12:04pm | Report comment

slippery jim is graham arnold. FACT

dasilva said | October 11th 2008 @ 12:08pm | Report comment

Damn SJ - everyone seems to think you are Arnold even Jesse Fink suggested you were Arnold once.

Doesn’t matter - some one once accused me of being Craig Foster.

Koala Bear said | October 11th 2008 @ 12:16pm | Report comment

Middie wrote: KB can come and be your co support for my inclusion in the team.

Midfielder,
my sources have told me you only had 5 touches in your last outing .. So you’re farkin kidding.. if you think you can waltz your way into the CRSL ALL STARS squad …. .. me thinks you have been eating too many yellow lollipops

Slippery Jim, Nicky Carle is my Charlie Cooke.. no …my Lord Lampard…. hmm well maybe he’s my Deco..

~~~~~~~
KB

Slippery Jim said | October 11th 2008 @ 12:23pm | Report comment

fatboi-v, if I was GA, please explain how I happened to be posting at the same time GA was on the bench during the Socceroos campaigns

OK, I will simmer down, now that I have had another replacement cappacino I am feeling much better. I just think it stifles genuine debate when people are branded as trolls for having a difference of opinion…sorry fatboi-v, maybe I WAS just a tad over-patronising in my post (only a tad mind ), you have been quite sensible (in style if not opinion) yourself lately…

dasilva said | October 11th 2008 @ 12:39pm | Report comment

Perhaps Slippery Jim you are not Arnold but Arnie spokeperson.

Hired by him to defend his interest over the internet

By Jesse Fink
October 10th 2008 @ 1:40am