By LeftArmSpinner
October 12th 2008 @ 12:06am
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Where’s the promised cultural change?
John O’Neill promised that Robbie Deans would bring cultural change to the Wallabies. His assessment of the Wallabies was correct, particularly after their submission in the 2007 Rugby World Cup.
The process of cultural change is well documented and Robbie Deans is well positioned to know what is required to win. This does not necessarily mean that he is capable of achieving cultural change.
If the organisation is in very poor shape, cultural change is made by revolution because there is little to lose. Deans chose to evolve the Wallabies, indicating that, in his assessment, the Wallabies were not far from achieving their potential.
While I strongly disagree with this assessment, this decision may have been based on his having very little time between the Super 14 Final and the Wallabies first training session.
He also didn’t have the inside view of the Wallabies coaching set up at close quarters that a deputy coach would have had.
A comparison of other Australian sporting teams and the best of previous Wallabies teams would have shown that the Wallabies are in need of major cultural change not achievable through patient evolution.
Cultural change requires a leader, someone to own the process and continually demand it from the players on the field.
The Wallabies do not have an inspirational captain like Liz Ellis, Lauren Jackson, Steve Waugh or Alan Border. They have not had such a captain for more than 8 years and since John Eales.
The Wallabies players are not fit enough.
Australia’s best provincial team, the Waratahs, ran out of gas in the Super 14 Final. The Wallabies have been rundown by the All Blacks in Brisbane and left gasping in South Africa after just eight minutes.
Successful international teams have superior fitness to their opponents.
Guus Huddink, knowing what to expect, put the Socceroos through physical hell prior to the 2006 World Cup. In doing so, he built team confidence and morale.
The Wallabies players do not have the skills to execute their own positions at international level. For example, props, in particular, and forwards in general, arrive at Wallabies training in need of scrummaging techique training.
Equally, the backs arrive needing kicking skills training, such as Robbie Deans spending time with Luke Burgess on his box kick.
International coaches do not expect and do not have the time to “upskill” their chosen squads. This should have already been done over many years prior to them being selected. The coach sets the overall strategy, the specific tactics game by game, and implements it in training.
The players are not sufficiently motivated.
They failed to meet England’s physical challenge at the breakdown in the 2007 RWC, they were thrashed by New Zealand and South Africa, in both cases, after good wins just a week before.
Why have Vickerman and Elsom handed back their Wallabies jerseys and the highest honour that exists for any person: the chance to represent your country?
Again, international coaches do not expect to motivate their players. It is often the case that they need to rein in the players nerves or passion prior to the game.
These examples are fundamental to any successful sporting team.
Australian Rugby needs to assist and encourage Robbie Deans to be bold and bring a revolution to the Wallabies by addressing the above and other fundamental issues.
Despite his laudable laconic style and my high regard for Deans, I am worried by his recent jargon laddened comments and indecisiveness at the selection table.
It is now nine years since the Wallabies were performing successfully. The longer they delay addressing these issues robustly and decisively, the greater the problem will become.
My solution is to choose Giteau as captain, with the intention that he will lead the new culture by example and surround himself with other players of equally obdurate and uncompromising character and determination such as Horwill, Moore and Burgess.
Around them, put men of character and ability: Brown, Pocock, Cross, AAC, Horne, Mumm, Alexander, Tahu and Beale and others who have the same character.
Remove Dunning, Sharpe, Chisholm, Mortlock, Tuqiri and others who have proven not to have the requisite character.
Soon, the Wallabies will naturally adopt the indomitable character that its individuals possess. Subsequently, new players will either match this intensity or be replaced.
There is a lot riding on turning the Wallabies around.
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There are certain sentences a rugby writer believes he will never write and one them was (notice the past tense): 'Al Baxter monsters Andrew Sheridan...'
spiro zavos said | October 12th 2008 @ 12:18am | Report comment
From one left arm spinner to LeftArmSpinner, I think - or hope after their recent extensive and tough training sessions - that the Wallabies will finally be fit, after many years of a relative lack of fitness.
As, for changing the captain I think that a decision will be made about this nexct year, probably James Horwill. ,
LeftArmSpinner said | October 12th 2008 @ 4:53am | Report comment
Spiro, Something is rotten in the state of Denmark, as Shakespeare said. Better fitness is a start. they can then play the full 80 minutes. It will build more team spirit and confidence and show up those that can’t push past pain barriers, a sign of that mongrel we need.
Horwill would do well as captain, despite his youth and inexperience, but leading from the front. But why are current wallabies not sufficiently motivated and giving up the honour to represent their country? Not a good sign.
Whether true or myth, Steve Waugh’s reputation for competitiveness was legendary. In a junior/grade game, after winning the toss, he announced: “You C@#ts can have a bat!” Border scored centuries with broken bones. And his comment to Dean Jones, after vomiting due to exhaustion and dehydration during a critical innings in India is more of the same uncompromising, ultra competitive spirit that is necessary at international level.
I find it perverse that cricketers, playing essentially a non contact sport, would have stronger inner character and courage than rugby players who play arguably the most physical sport (considering the lack of protective clothing and devices) on the planet!!!
We need some physically and mentally tough, uncompromising, skilful Wallabies!!!!
Sven Hallibane said | October 12th 2008 @ 6:28am | Report comment
I would like to correct LeftArmSpinner’s conception of rugby in Denmark. There is nothing rotten about it at all. In fact, we have a vibrant competition up here and some very enthusiatic players. Internationally, although we’re nowhere near good enough to play the giants of the game, we’ve more than held our own against teams from Malta, Austria, Switerland, Serbia-Montenegro, Latvia and Armenia, and our Exiles club draws a good support here in the capital. If LeftOutSpinner, sorry, LeftArmSpinner, should ever find himself in Copenhagen, I’ll be more than happy to take him to a rugy game so he can see for himself that our standard is anything but poor, then escort him afterwards to a local brewpub called the Søgaards Bryghus and buy him a pint of Trolhede.
Benjamin said | October 12th 2008 @ 8:39am | Report comment
Your constant criticism of the team is getting rather pedantic. It is all well and good to say they have no ‘ticker’ etc but how do you know? Suggesting that cricket players have more courage and inner-character - which can’t even be measured btw - than players who play perhaps the most physical sport is not a logical premise. Is it possible that the forwards do have desire and committment but are just not strong or powerful enough? Is it possible that the forwards have been badly coached by Foley? Is it possible that Australian forwards have for years been let down by inadequate S14 coaching and a desire to ignore significant facets of forward play? Ultimately it is not Dunning’s, Sheperdson’s, Baxter’s, Henderson’s or Blake’s fault that they cannot scrummage to the level of the NZ or SA forwards. That is due to a cultural difference. Historically Australian teams have never scrummaged well, thus the current crop are part of a lengthy trend. This talk of ‘requisite character’ is embarassing and worse it does a great disservice to players who I have never seen ‘bottle’ an impact or a confrontation. Before you criticise I would love to see you walk a mile in their shoes.
Regarding absent players: Vickermann has had injury problems for years and Elsom is just looking to earn some money and play in a different league. It is hardly an exclusive situation either. Look at Carter. Look at Jack, Hayman, Rawlinson, Newby, Collins, Dermody, McAlister, Tuitopou, Holah, Gear, Mauger and Evans. They all gave up being part of the world’s greatest team during their peak years.
Broken Knees said | October 12th 2008 @ 8:39am | Report comment
Yes, something is wrong in Denmark. Refer to the article regarding skills training before the national coach gets hold of the player. How do you explain the unbelievable situation of Tahu playing one of the key Rugby positions with limited knowledge of the game or the position. He had limited games during the season and obviously does not understand the fundamentals of defence.
If you want to look at a fundamental problem of the ARU it is the cheapening of the value of the great Australian Rugby Jumper. Selling the Jersey to any NRL manager that wants to find a winger to come to our game (for millions) is folley. What have they brought to the game???
To get all the pride, enthusiasm and leadership that we are looking for, the Jersey needs to become worth something to the players and give aspiration to those players toiling through the rugby grades in the hope off one day achieving greater heights. What about five year development squads of forwards or backs. (especially in the positions we have little back up)
Something is certainly wrong in Denmark, if after spending Millions of dollars on training complexs, record prices for players, coaches etc that we are sitting here discussing a side that is unfit, short of skills and lacks a leader.
If you want to solve the problem put the millions into the development of the game from the juniors up through the clubs and like anything that involes hard work and practice the cream will rise to the top.
sheek said | October 12th 2008 @ 9:30am | Report comment
Benjamin,
Leftie is not alone in his criticism of the Wallabies. Perception is reality. And for a long time there has been a perception of Australian rugby that our leading players were overpaid & underachieved. It was good while it lasted, but it’s time for reckoning.
Leftie,
Deans probably didn’t fully appreciate the problems he faced when he became Wallabies coach. He probably thought being in close proximity as an opposing S14 coach, gave him sufficient insight. But seeing (from the inside) is believing.
I agree the Wallabies haven’t been fit enough. Fitness gives you an edge natural ability may not be able to. Fitness gives you confidence to endure, to hold out, to hang in there, to go the extra mile, etc.
Changing the culture of Australian rugby may take longer than Deans originally appreciated. For starters, we don’t have the depth of NZ rugby. Players have to perservered with who otherwise might be cast adrift. Deans is trying to change his team gradually, a few new players at a time.
Australian professional rugby players have enjoyed their own small click of “big fish in a small pond”. But rugby can’t sustain this elite group anymore. It’s becoming more competitive in the sports market. It is slowly dawning on the Wallabies that they are now entering the “performance based” pay increases.
Unless the entire Australian rugby community lifts its performance & profile, the big money simply won’t be there. Whether that’s sufficient motivation for the future, only time will tell.
LeftArmSpinner said | October 12th 2008 @ 11:20am | Report comment
Sheek, I agree with what you say, with the exception that perception is reality. The reality, or should I say fact, is that they have failed to maintain the benchmarks of previous teams such as:
* Trophies: holding Bledisloe, Webb Ellis, Tri Nations etc. trophies;
* Away winning record
* The mental toughness to find ways to win tight matches, (Mortlock’s and Eales’ last minute goals and Kefu’s try),
* Ability to compete at scrum time,
They have failed despite the benefits (financial, intimidation, reputation etc.) that this previous success brought, that heritage of self belief and effectively unlimited access to League players.
Direct comparisons to other Australian sporting teams are valid, male and female. The Opals, World champions, led by Lauren Jackson are a great example. Other Australian teams also punch above their weight and are reknowned for their toughness, stubborness and competitiveness.
Sheek, I agree that Deans most probably got a surprise, a massive surprise, on his arrival from the Crusaders, perennial winners. I also agree with the importance and impact of fitness on a team.
It will take longer to change the culture while Deans goes softly, softly. I think that the motivation is there at CEO level and we know that O’Neill won’t be backward in coming forward, albeit probably not publically.
I decided to submit this post because, as I thought about things, I came to the view that things were much worse, endemic and not being fully addressed by Deans, Nucifora and ARU generally. The benchmark comparison with other sports teams confirmed my assessment. Look at the way AFL teams rebuild teams by cleaning out the old guys and replacing them with motivated, skilful and aggressive young players who grow into the roles, e.g. Cats and Hawks.
OldManEmu said | October 12th 2008 @ 2:13pm | Report comment
There is a piece by John Connolly in today’s press explaining how the Wallabies come to be the third ranked team in the world at the moment behind NZ and SA. Argue up hill and down dale and use all sorts of analysis youlike but I reckon that is probably a fair enough assessment of our National team’s fortunes at the moment.
So for the purpose of the debate let us accept that the Wallabies are No 3 in the world. What is wrong with that? and what more do people expect? No 2 or 1 I imagine. NZ is now, and has been for fifty or so years the best team in world rugby and for the forseeable future will remain so. The Wallabies will for periods topple the ABs but I accept with great admiration the power of NZ Rugby.
Why is there so much mindless navel gazing and contemplation on this site of the so called woeful state of Australian Rugby? I genuinely do not understand it and I certainly disagree with the proposition so commonly put out on this site and elsewhere that the Wallabies and everything else to do with Australian Rugby is rotten.
Dealing specifically with a few of LAS comments:
The Wallabies have not had an inspirational captain since John Eales…..disagree. I think Gregan and Mortlock each in their own way are excellent leaders and captains. Gregan was hugely maligned by the popular Rugby press in Australia because he was not available and matey (as oposed to say Nick Farr Jones), and not because of his ability as a player and captain and this sentiment eventually trickled down to the average supporter. Growden for example stuck the knife into Gregan every occasion he could. Hell hath no fury like a a journalist scorned. But for the very large majority of Gregan’s career he was far and away the best No 9 we had. I saw somewhere on this site a post comparing Gregan’s performance in the 1996 Sydney club GF to his performance at the RWC 07 to make the point he got worse as he got older- if that was not so silly it would be laughable. A Sydney club GF one year into the pro era versus a World Cup?? The 1996 GF for the record occurred in circumstances where Gregan was playing behind a monster of a Randwick pack against a gameand tough but outgunned Warringah pack that gave him the ball on a platter - he had Knox outside himin sublime form. One of the tests of a captain is whether his players listen to him and whether he has his players and the opposition’s respect. Gregan had all this in spades. He remained calm on the field, got under the skin of the opposition, talked the referee into penalties,and prepared off the field in the most professional way possible. He played with courage and strength. He had plenty of faults too, I accept.
Mortlock is a different kettle of fish.He is the sort of captain who says I’m runnig through that brick wall over there,follow me. And yet while playing the high physical game, he remains composed and battles it out till the last minute of every game in which he plays. He is a great goal kicker, ferocious ball runner, excellent defender, can play injured, and is very popular with his team mates. I think Mortlock is the epitome of an inspirational captain.
The Wallabies are not fit enough….where is the evidence for this assertion? Witness the Wallabies coming home with wet sail in the final Bledisloe match and you have the lie to this line of country.
The players are not sufficiently motivated….again where is the evidence for this and how do you measure the motivation.I guarantee you LAS that if you were sitting in the dressing sheds twenty minutes before any Test you would see a pretty motivated group of people. I guarantee you LAS if you witnessed the effort the players put in off the field, from weights training sessions, to sprint sessions, to flexibilty sessions, to ballwork sessions, to set piece sessions, to defence sessions, to wrestling training, to rehab work and sessions with the physios while receovering from painful off season surgery, to video sessions,down to what they put into the bodies as fuel and so on, you might not question the players motivation.
You single out five players as not having “requisite character”. Have you ever sat down with any of the players you have mentioned or spent anything more than the time it takes to watch a game of Rugby observing them,so you can be in any position to question their character? How on earth could anyone question Mortlock’s character? Dunning could have given up long ago, for example after he was stretchered off at Twickenham a few years ago, Chisholm could have racked off to France or Italy and earned more money for less training and easier competition years ago, Nathan Sharpe chose to be a leader at the Western Force on a hiding to nothing (albeit very good money), leaving the safety and security and support structures of Queensland - this is not the act of a man without character. Nathan Sharpe could have walked away from Australian Rugby after he was not selected for Tests this year but he hung in there - his experience, popularity among the players, skill in the set piece and will to win - thats right, will to win, is going to be needed in the next year or so.
My view is that if the Wallabies maintain a top three position and continue to challenge the ABs then Australian Rugby at the top level is in good shape, and I see no reason to believe that top three status is not both a reasonable and realistic expectation. I disagee thatthere is any need to change the “culture” - whateverthat means.
Much respect to you LAS et al, I love your work, but I disagree with it.
Gatwell said | October 12th 2008 @ 3:27pm | Report comment
Excellent riposte, OldManEmu, but you’re being too kind. Why respect LeftFieldSpinner when his opinion is not only snobbish but boring?
Benjamin said | October 13th 2008 @ 3:31am | Report comment
Sheek,
I don’t think money should come into it. That is irrelevant. The players are hardly on NBA money. Frank Lampard earns more in two weeks than Baxter would in a year and I would class it as either arrogance or ignorance on the part of Australian supporters that they would expect so much from such a small playing pool. It’s all too easy to blame the players. The Australian S14 provinces are hardly setting the world alight thus there is evidently a problem with Australian coaching. Instead of supposing that the players are to blame why don’t you have a look at the questions I asked? I’d be intrigued to hear your answers.
LAS,
“Direct comparisons to other Australian sporting teams are valid, male and female. The Opals, World champions, led by Lauren Jackson are a great example. Other Australian teams also punch above their weight and are reknowned for their toughness, stubborness and competitiveness.”
Direct comparions are not valid at all. You cannot compare technique sports to rugby, a game in which a good big player will always over come a good little player.
Gaijin Muzz said | October 13th 2008 @ 10:06am | Report comment
OldManEmu - I would agree with much of what you say. As a Kiwi, I have felt the Wallabies have been very competitive over the past 2 seasons - but that is not good enough is it? Not at the top level - no-one wants to come 2nd. It would seem experience is the key and they are not far off getting the right mix with addition of new blood. Fitness was fine in that last Bledisloe but yes, a winning “culture” is needed. That will come if they keep blooding younger guys in key positions. That win in Sydney and then in SA should have been built on, but the flogging in SA was more to do with the SA situation as much as one eye on Brisbane. And wasn’t that a ripper!!! Look for them to build on those wins.
stillmissit said | October 13th 2008 @ 11:25am | Report comment
LAS - Ah! the other great divide. Are we evolving enough or do we need more oomph! in the state of Denmark?
I have always been of the view that a good fast young un will out play an old slow good un in the backs and vice versa in the forwards. I was surprised that we didnt go for speed in the backs and instead went for experience ie Lote and Mortlock (one of our greats).
In terms of our ‘ticker’ it seems that it flows strongly and then almost stops beating. This worries me but phsychology is tricky stuff and is best left up to a coach who knows what turns these guys on. BTW they still need turning on. I have seen highly paid (400k+) professionals sit on their arse and let the world rot around them without someone on their case.
What you are stating about the player development before they get to the Wallabies is true but why? There are training manuals with all the right information, ex players eager to put something back into the game. Coaches with more diploma’s than an accountant and at S14 plenty of money to make it all work.
Old Man Emu - No 3 is not good enough. I dont expect to be No 1 for the same time the AB’s are but we should be touching it from time to time. If we are going to change the culture then the past is only an indicator and the future is all risk and that should be embraced by anyone wanting to change a culture and recreate a team.
Please do not get me going on Gregan again the guy was an over lionised imposter.
This tour is going to sort out whether LAS and a few of us here are right or if OME, Benjamin and you others are right and safely and steadily is the way to go. Looking at facts and figures will take you nowhere in this arguement it is a philosophical thing and if a player doesnt get a start you will never know if he was good enough.
I am strong member of the LAS army (with some reservations about Mortlock)
ADH said | October 13th 2008 @ 11:39am | Report comment
Lefty,
before we start making rash comments about Deans and his new tenure over the Wallabies, perhaps we should consider that he has only been in charge of the team for roughly six months. I find it puzzling that people would suddenly expect a team, (with the recent track record of the Wallabies), to suddenly start beating the world’s best consistently.
Give the man some time. Wouldn’t it be better to judge him in two years time?
True Tah said | October 13th 2008 @ 11:55am | Report comment
Benajmin,
rugby is a technique based sport as well, and for the record, a good big player does not necessarily always win over a good small player - for example in the recent Brisbane test, Giant Cliff Palu all 120kg of was charging with only 92kg Dan Carter in front of him, Carter basically dislodged the ball from Cliff’s hands, despite conceding almost 30kg to the big man.
Also in an earlier post you mentioned a number of All Blacks who gave up being part of the worlds greatest team for Europe.
Whilst they played for the All Blacks, I dont know how much of a permanent fixture, Rawlinson, Newby, Dermody and Holah were in the side. Collins was basically told by Graham Henry he didn’t see a future for him playing for the ABs, so it wasn’t exactly him giving up anything.
Bring Back Melon said | October 13th 2008 @ 1:11pm | Report comment
You have to, as some of you have advised, take a step back and admit that, whilst we haven’t been number 1, we’ve not been TOO terrible either, especially since Deans has taken over.
You also have to admit that for about 5 years or so pre-Deans there was certainly a perception that (most) Aussie rugby players lacked that ‘mongrel’ that we saw in earlier times.
This perception was reinforced by some comments Gregan made in his time as captain. Note I think Gregan was the right choice for the team both has a halfback and captain - there was no-one else I could nominate who (at the time) was better… but that doesn’t alter my point. Which is that comments by Gregan along the lines of “Passion is overrated” didn’t help. You’d see the team come off a loss where clearly the other team won because they just wanted it more (e.g. England in the World Cup) and see the players still mutter things like “we didn’t execute to our game plan” or similar corporate-sounding banalities.
There were exceptions. Obviously, judging by my moniker, I liked players like Owen Finegan who appeared no to care too much about spending time in the weights room trying to get the perfect pecs, working on his BMI and various other statistics. He was an “old skool” player who appeared to realised it was more important to be tough than strong. “The amount of fight in the dog” and all that. Horwill seems to be cut from a similar mold.
Mortlock is clearly a different kettle of fish to Gregan but I don’t think it’s possible to sway a CULTURE in a short period of time and those that were expecting anything more from Deans that what he has delivered should move to South Africa where they change coaches every few months.
I believe we are in the process of a cultural shift in the right direction. We’ll get there. I’m happy LAS and others are still focussed on the teams attitude as well as their methods, selection, condition, etc. So hang in there Oz Rugby fans and stick behind the team and coach.
I must have taken one too many happy pills today, eh?
LeftArmSpinner said | October 13th 2008 @ 4:11pm | Report comment
OldManEmu, Connolly, for all his sins, has been there and done that, so I can’t argue with him. But, because the Wallabies will have to beat them at some stage, the critical question is “when are the AB’s most vulnerable?“
Third in the world is not good enough for an entity that has won the most RWC’s in history. I don’t think that the ARL, the Netballers, the Mens Hockey team, the swimming team or the Cricketing public would be happy with being third in the world!
You don’t get to number one by accepting inconsistency such as “The Wallabies will for periods topple the ABs.”
Gregan: we were constantly told of how great a captain he was until he left the “protection” of the Wallaby team. He was a manipulative, selfish, well past his best football, and critically, “Gregan” came first. Just read his book.
I posted the GF “evidence.” Sure, games and eras are different but, Burgess passes off the deck and courageously attacks the line at both S14 and Test level, giving his backline extra seconds.
Mortlock is different. He does run through brick walls, but only two or three times a game. That’s the nature of the position. No disrespect there. For the rest of the game, he goes missing. Just look at the J’burg test, dropped the pass, then tried to run it out from his in goal and miss read the defence letting in a try, and all in the space of 2 minutes.
Mortlock doesn’t have the determination, competitiveness, composure etc of an Elsom or a Steve Waugh, Lynagh or Eales or Farr-Jones.
The evidence is in France in the QF: the team is getting outmuscled at the breakdown. Time for stern words from the captain that it has to stop, and NOW and he keeps at them until it does. He then also goes looking for chances for him to show them how to do it with smashing tackles, aggressive clean out, etc and they would then go on to win the game, as the Bookies expected!!!
Fitness and Motivation: When was the last time that the Wallabies produced an 80 minute performance? In a winning position, they let AB score three unanswered tries, one by a prop!! As regards your examples, they are all things that they are paid to do, the sum total of which has resulted in them failing to win away from home, being bundled out of the RWC at QF by a team in disarray and being put to the sword by SA (JBurg) and AB (Auckland) just a week after very good performances.
To illustrate my point, by motivation, I mean that innate sense that winners have. They are prepared to do anything, no matter the personal cost, to win the contest. McCaw, will outplay Smith and Waugh even when they are both on the field. Border will score centuries with broken fingers, Lynagh, stand-in Captain, had a plan and executed it to score a try against Ireland to win the 1991 RWC QF. Eales, had a plan to drive down the field for the penalty, then, without any kicking practice, and completely exhausted by the previous 80 minutes, stepped up and kicked the match winning goal.
I admire every Wallaby for the efforts and sacrifices and ability they obviously have to even make the squad. But, at that level, they are competing against players who have made the same effort, sacrifices etc. Every successful Wallaby then has to go to the next level, the best of the best.
Finally, OMU, thanks for your contribution. I too love your work! I guess my premise is that other Australian sporting teams are the best of the best. The Wallabies have been the best of the best, Grand slam 84, RWC 91 and 99 and a full trophy cabinet. I believe that the current Wallabies can also be the best of the best. The game of rugby in Australia needs them to achieve this.
LeftArmSpinner said | October 13th 2008 @ 4:12pm | Report comment
Gatwell, Snobbish?? Geez. That is a first. I am trying to be constructive and creating a debate from O’Neill’s comment 10 months ago with the benefit of the current season.
Benjamin, it is not about technique. It is the ability to win. Australian Sporting teams, accurately or inaccurately, pride themselves on punching above their weight, etc. The evidence is there in the Olympics Medal tally and world championships in Netball, Women’s basketball, ODI and Test Cricket, RWC 91 and 99, Woman’s Hockey, etc.
Gaijin Muzz, do you or the AB themselves assess the AB’s on their being competitive? Yes, the Wallabies are not far off but, I contend that failure to address cultural change will resign them to never achieving their potential.
Stillmissit, I agree, the ticker flows strongly and then stops. For the answer to the “Why”, I agree with O’Neill. Culture. It embodies psychology.
You can’t force a winning culture on anyone. You can create the ideal environment (coaches, resources, etc) and then select people (winners) who have the culture naturally and are looking for a place that allows them to bloom. You reach the tipping point once the majority of people are winners. Then just let them get on with it.
ADH, I am not expecting the team to suddenly beat the worlds best consistently. Frankly, I would have preferred to see an inexperienced team of young “winners” losing in 2008 (and less so in 2009) but growing tougher and better with every game. I am a big Deans fan.
Bring Back Melon, I agree with you, except that you can sway a culture with new blood who are winners replacing old blood who are not. The problem is that you cant predict with 100% accuracy, those new guys that are winners.
We are all hanging in there behind Deans and the Wallabies and just willing them on to bigger things.
Benjamin said | October 13th 2008 @ 8:53pm | Report comment
Of course rugby is founded in technique Tah, and if you are saying that Carter is more agile or nimble than Palu then you would probably be right, however that isn’t an apt comparison because it isn’t like for like. Contrast Andrew Sheridan to Ben Robinson, or amateur players of the same build. The bigger man will always win out. Richie McCaw, Olivier Magne and George Smith were always superior to Neil Back. Guess why. If Palu and a smaller number 8 are similar in skill and ability then Palu will always be selected. I think you know why.
You’re right about the AB fringe players, however the point remains that they would likely have picked up extra caps over the years and yet they gave that up. Collins could have come back in two years - who knows? The point remains that that player drain puts the loss of Elsom and Vickermann into perspective for those who are claiming that their departure reflects the rotteness of Australian rugby. Simply put, it doesn’t.
LAS, obviously then you consider Australian coaching to be perfect across the board.
And again you cannot compare sports where size is irrelevant to a sport where size is massively important.
Benjamin said | October 13th 2008 @ 9:00pm | Report comment
Stillmissit, I have said various times on past threads that I am certainly not safety first and have therefore been massively discontented with the tribulations of English rugby over the past 4 years. The fact of the matter is that Deans has brought in a lot of new players and in key positions - 1, 4, 9, 10, 11/15. Not only that but he had the courage to start Tahu - albeit misplaced courage. Deans also achieved improvements in the pack and yet Australian fans want to remove half of the pack and surmise that pack improvements will still continue? The fact of the matter is that a winning culture develops from winning and no coach has ever committed the amount of changes that people are asking for and been successful. The most successful coaches of recent years have placed a huge emphasis on experience over the short, medium and long-term. This requires balance. Frankly I would love to see a host of untried Australian players over the Autumn because then people might start to recognise the service that players like Mortlock have given their country. He is the only player that teams in Europe, NZ and SA respect (bar Smith). Frankly I’m a little surprised that people are still maintaining this logic that bringing in young players will achieve anything of note when there is no justification.
Tom said | October 13th 2008 @ 10:11pm | Report comment
I’m primarily a league follower, but I will watch anything, and traditionally I have always enjoyed a game of union. But just watching this season, compared to league, as you comment, the fitness levels seem poor, the kicking is appalling (Giteau kicks well about 1 game in 3, which is obviously insufficient), and basic tackling skills are also quite average (defense per se isn’t really comparable as the defensive patterns are completely different).
I also agree that the attitude of a lot of players is poor, Tuqiri especially disgusts me, he looks all the world like he thinks he has done his time in league, now he can sit back and watch the dollars pile up. I think he should be dropped. I disagree on Mortlock though, he does damage and normally bends the line back when he makes a charge. Horwill, Burgess and Moore, although slightly raw, also impress me, as unlike some they obviously love being out there representing their country, and like any good footy player in any code, play with little regard for their own wellbeing. These blokes would be a good starting core for a completely new team, which is probably what ultimately needs to happen.
Oh, and please leave Gaz over in France, he is a pea heart, cries when he breaks a fingernail, and is precisely what neither code needs.
stillmissit said | October 14th 2008 @ 8:44am | Report comment
Benjamin exactly! coaches are like a group of robots they mostly do what everyone else does and get the same result but can keep their job. It takes guts, knowledge and experience to rebuild a team and make it successful.
In Australia we have a history of rebuilding ourselves radically it was done in the mid 70’s by Dave Brockhoff in the famous tests against England including the ‘Battle of Ballymore’, then again by Bob Dwyer in the 80’s where he selected total unknowns in Farr-Jones and Phil Kearns culminating in the 1991 world cup and then lastly by Rod McQueen in 97.
So our expectations are based on our history. We all have great respect for Deans and what he has done with the guys but the selections are what Connolly would have done had he remained with Burgess the only exception. We want to believe that the culture of big $ handouts and easy times has come to an end but it aint obvious.
Tom - As a guy who doesnt watch a lot of Union you sure have summed it up well. A large number of union tragics like myself would agree with you 100%.
LeftArmSpinner said | October 14th 2008 @ 10:41am | Report comment
spot on Tom, particularly Tuqiri. Stillmissit, I’m with you. you have summarised the history very well and exactly as I see it.
True Tah said | October 14th 2008 @ 10:49am | Report comment
LAS,
you’re a Randwick supporter - is this big Ratu (Lote’s cousin) likely to be a saviour for the Tahs next year?
Or is he cut from the same cloth as Lote, which means the Tahs will have two lazy wingers next year?
Benjamin said | October 14th 2008 @ 8:38pm | Report comment
Ok, let me rephrase my initial statement. No professional coach has ever made as many changes as Australian fans demand and been successful. Selectorial changes were constant in the amateur era, however the past is another country, as they say, and it doesn’t translate into the professional age.
LeftArmSpinner said | October 15th 2008 @ 5:32am | Report comment
Ratu is an imposter and bully boy with as much ticker as Lote. Sure he is big, sure his can drop his shoulder and bump people, but he is slow, doesnt tackle and doesnt have any ticker. My sons and I enjoyed his first few outtings in the Green of Randwick. But he has since had several injuries and in the GF, was appalling just when he needed a big game. It was a hot day, and too hot in the kitchen for Rasi. Then, to add insult to injury, he took off down the touch line but was run down by Uni Captain Davidson’s 79th minute diagonal run starting from mid field on the 22, eventually nailing Rasi into touch on the further 10 metre line when he and any true winger would have just put his foot down and left everyone burnt.
Sure, he got the inside pass away for the try but…….
Remind you of anyone???
It has since emerged that he came to Sydney to get a new start to a stalled rugby career.
Prediction: He won’t make the Waratahs next year or ever. NO TICKER.
True Tah said | October 15th 2008 @ 2:44pm | Report comment
LAS,
I hope you’re right about not donning the sky blue of NSW, he seems to have gotten picked on the reputation of being a f***in huge Fijian unit who just happens to be Lote’s cousin, and actually done bugger all to justify the hype surrounding him.
What was his rugby career like before he arrived in Sydney - is he another Queenslander NSW have poached, jesus they can have him back if things dont improve!!
stillmissit said | October 15th 2008 @ 4:51pm | Report comment
LAS - A thought I just had is that it is hard to bring in a cultural change when there is a perception that we are desperately short of talent. Thus my suggestion that we look outside the box, if we can either find or build the talent pool then that will put other players under pressure. There is nothing like the risk of losing a high profile, highly paid job to focus the mind on what is important.
True Tah - he struck me as being only partially interested in playing when I watched him in the Australian U20’s. He could be a good recruit for league? Big and runs direct lines straight into the opposition, seems to me he is a natural for league.
Only 17 more sleeps before we find out if the Wallabies have a changed culture or not. In Eddies time you could bet your house that they would lose this dead rubber against NZ. Lote would be trash mouthing the Kiwi’s and Gits would be talking up our chances whilst stating that the AB’s are awesome players. Then we would be playing like an army in the mist now you see them, now you dont.
Westy said | October 15th 2008 @ 5:02pm | Report comment
Leftarmspinner… love your passion for the jersey….Australian rugby i think has always punched well above its weight. It is not our national game nor our most popular sport probably ranking number 4 of the football codes. We have traditionally had a small playing base to choose from………that poor little New Zealand only have about 27745 senior male players to pick from…………we have 29100…………and the problem is that our elite domestic club competition is no where near the depth or quality of our New Zealand compatriots. If you ask a New Zealander we have 22 million!
Traditionally Australia has been able to combat its small playing base and lack of depth by playing a holding operation in the forwards with a running game in which both forwards and backs participated, at various times coaches given the talent available have been able to play a more forward orientated structured game and/or defensive wall approach but this tends to expire wijh the retirement of those scarce props/forwards etc.
Australian rugby coaches have often had to be much more adaptable and even innovative to overcome our shallow elite playing depth.
Actually our recent successes over the past two decades have been some of the highpoints of Australian rugby. I hope it continues but I am mindful that Waratahs Super 14 team did not have the confidence to recruit from our elite club rugby instead going for a resurrected Fava and the Reds for the All Black Braid. I have this fear that we may be going through a rebuilding phase waiting for a new crop of elite players to develop.
Deans will do well to hold our own in the top 3 given our existing player base. By the way we have tended to do well when we play not only with skill but a bit of mongrel.
ohtani's jacket said | October 16th 2008 @ 3:10pm | Report comment
Shouldn’t you wait until the upcoming tour to judge further?
LeftArmSpinner said | October 19th 2008 @ 6:51am | Report comment
OJ, of course, but if we did that, there would be no Roar. Its all about comment and prediction, isnt it??