I went to Victoria Park once in my lifetime - it was 1978 and I was just a kid (an oldish kid - pre-licence age).

It was one of the most horrible experiences of my life.

Collingwood won 21 goals something to 3 goals something (no exaggeration) - and it was as if there were like 6 other Footscray supporters in the whole ground - which was full of the ugliest, most terrible people I have ever had the displeasure of sharing close quarters.

Going against the wind in the first quarter, it was still early on and Templeton took a mark deep in the quarter, very near to where the small band of doggy supporters were. Incredibly, he went for a torp, which was spiralling towards the goals for half the journey, before the wind grabbed hold of it and sent to the opposite pocket. The lady next to me got excited: I tell you what, I tell you what…before she faded once it was clear that Kelvin’s kick had also faded terribly. Then it seemed like the whole Collingwood grandstand came down on her like a ton of bricks: well, tell us! go on! what’s your brilliant Kelvin going to do next! blah, blah, blah

My thoughts at the time?? Bloody hell - haven’t you learned anything?! You tried the exact same thing on debut a few years ago, and that was against Collingwood as well!! At the Western Oval, but same pocket, against the wind, ball ends up in the opposite pocket!

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or don’t know any different (the worlds fans) - which is probably why certain aspects are more open to debate in countries such as Australia and the US…….more so Australia because Aust Footy gives a very different (but nonetheless diverse) comparison to soccer (than does Grid Iron).

Still - - ’tis a fabricated abstract concept……….based on miliatry doctrine of the 18th and 19th centures….

AFL behaviour - - - I never went to Victoria Park, and I dare not park a Vic registered car at AAMI stadium carpark…………that said, I’ve never had an issue……….other than the language of some…………however, I know of a friend of my wife whose brother in law was bashed one time (after the game, outside of the ground - - - so, sort of qualifies).

There’s idiots every where - - - my main issues are around flares (outright dangerous), the mexican wave with projectiles (outright dangerous), and too much ‘mob mentality’ (I don’t trust mobs, especially when lubricated!!!).

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By the way folks - where do people normally get their Fox Sports rankings that they often bandy around here??

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1. re offside… bottom line is that the worlds fans don’t see the need for those reforms. They find the balance quite right as it is.

2. re crowd behaviour… AFL behaviour would have ranked even higher for me if I hadn’t seen 80+% of my games at Subi, perhaps? The downer for me is one-eyed disrespect to opponent teams fans (sometimes nasty - not a fun spirit) and also racist oral abuse of players. But that may be WA-specific and less so in Melbourne. Those things said, every code down to and including League on my list is just fine. Its only cricket that I really find consistently objectionable in terms of the crowd.

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I’d be in no position to dispute your ranking - - and reality, for tennis……..apart from some home Davis cup crowds in was it Spain or Chile or somewhere…….mostly, around the world, they’re pretty good………………..come’s down to the etiquette of each sport to a degree.

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yeah, but off-side was supposedly intrinsic to hockey, but removing it didn’t see a glut of goals and at least removed that ‘grey’ area in the rules interpretation.

the reasoning for abolision:
to transfer the balance of power towards the offense,
to create more space around the circle and mid-field,
to help the flow of play, more goals and less whistles, and
to make the game more exciting and appealing to spectators.

however, still - in hockey - goals are hard to come by……..off-side it seems wasn’t the major issue.

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Also are you suggesting that goalies have gotten better but strikers have not?

Offside is vital to the character of the game of football. Football is unapologetically a low scoring and defense-oriented game; the obvious corollary is a set of very demanding pressures on attackers. To relax this rule and allow one or more centre-forwards to be parked in the box the whole time would diminish the game greatly.

Finally, about “theoretical”, there is nothing theoretical about it compared to a line. The last active defender is as solid an object as any side-line flag or strip of white paint. The only difference is that he/she is mobile, and tries to use positioning to his/her advantage.

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Tennis first………….and perhaps that’s what shook a lot of media when suddenly their were racial ‘incidents’ at the Aust Open………..(perhaps the problem had been ‘moved on’ from the soccer terraces to the tennis???).

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In oz, my ranking from best to worst for crowd behaviour would be Tennis, Union, AFL, Football, League, then daylight, and last Cricket.

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off side is the ultimate in theoretical fabrications………..an imaginary line across the field………it’s quite one thing to paint lines and as in netball set exactly where you can and can’t run.

but, an imaginary line that moves up and down the field……..and these days with the passive off-side, so, it’s imaginary and has holes in it…………

it’s an abstract rules concept.

Don’t imagine that I’m not suggesting that my preferred game, AFL, doesn’t have abstract rules and interpretational rules.

Off-side though, means different things to different games at different times over the years.

So - - fabricating rules a little more or less - - shouldn’t be an issue.

HOwever -

fact is that goal keepers are taller, more athletic and full time professionals - so, in relative terms, the target area of a soccer goal has been reduced despite the goal mouth not changing size. At what point is it required to make a change?

the basketball analogy of at what point does the basket get raised for each age group as they progress from juniors to open competition. LIkewise, you could increase the size of the soccer goal for open age professional leagues.

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Not too hard to work out why: it’s summer, it’s hot, they’re there all day, maybe into the night, with their mates, and they’ve had a skinful by then.

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As I said again, the only place where - when attending live, or on TV - I’ve thought crowds were just filth were Aussie cricket crowds. So on that basis I don’t think that Aussies are a more civilised lot than elsewhere. They have been responsible for the worst fan behaviour I’ve ever seen. That said of course 90% of people are great and its the 10% of shit that makes things a disgrace. So I’m not bagging out everyone.

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And i know its the same game and has not changed alot all these years, there has been talk over the last ten years of changing things with-in the game dont forget, i even think that there was talk of making the goals bigger. Nothing wrong with change, as long as it improves the game.

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You have lost me with your comment on off side …… its part of our game as it is in RU & RL

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You said “Whats being ignorant about nil-all K.B iit is what it says, nil -all, even a ignorant person can understand this is what you should be saying, and to decide games on nil-all, thats what you are brought up on, nobody else who follow other codes,”

Well …….. sorry to break this News to you ………. but compare Football playing numbers to RL playing numbers ……… so some % of RL folk including yourself do not understand football and a nil - all, your statement even an ignorant person ….. define this person ……. someone who grew up in NSW & QLD …….. or most of the rest of the world ……… interesting your comment is.

Oikee as an aside in my younger days I played semi professional RL i.e. got paid to play .and more than I got in my day job….. still go clap clap , clap clap clap MANLY, ……….. the game I played had four tackles and we stood 10 yards (sometimes apart), with no replacement in the second half it changed during my playing days to a second half replacement could be made, this replaced an unlimited tackle game with teams being six yards apart and no replacement in the second half, today sides stand 20 meters apart and have 10 or 12 (it changed I know) interchanges with a squad of 17 playersand and six tackles, the scoring is differnt as well when I played a try was worth 3 and a field goal was worth 2, today a try is worth 4 and a field goal 1. The game I played is similar but totally different to the game played today. Whereas the LAWS (not rules) of football have had two changes over the same time period first no tackles from behind, and no pass back to goal keepers.

Football is essentially the same game aside from the above chanres that was played 120 or more years ago so if I was a cruel person I would say to you RL can not even decide what it is and is purely a US media product like the roller game ……. I know it’s much more …… and I played at quite a high level so I am not being disrespectable ……. just ask for similar when you talk about football laws and history as football is global and is the same game as it was all that time ago.

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I never said there was no problem with Football. Just that it has been exageratted. I certainly didn’t make an argument that because I never experience = it doesn’t exist.

However there are sports that have worst crowd trouble even more so then football here in Australia like Cricket and yet football is singled out.

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oikee,
with respect that’s another ignorant statement .. Why on earth should you think my blood would be boiling over Japan … I am not a WWII vet.. But my late next door neighbour Mr Magpie was, and his father before him a Gallipalli Digger.. I am an associate member of the CRSL not a return soldier.. It’s funny tho when the Magpie was alive and during the 2006 WC we always had side bets in Marn Grook and Football.. I introduced him to the equivalent EPL Magpies (Newcastle) he thought Viduka was the ants pants; after I had told him he was the Socceroo captain, Melburnian, and a Marn Grook Magpie supporter..

Back to Japan, I had to bet against the Socceroos in the Socceroos v Japan match as he still harboured ill feelings.. Understandable I think.. But for me it was all over before I could learn to handle a sling shot.. so I see no reason on my part to hold any ill feelings towards the Japanese.. Not all CRSL members have ill feelings towards the Japanese, as many were not born or far too young to understand or what it was all about thank God.. .. Interesting point tho when the Japanese do play the Socceroos at the MCG.. I had not thought of how the members would react or even if they would go.. Interesting point you make .. Last post off to the CRSL to cheer the lads on…

~~~~~~~
KB

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Good for you, and that game will be a cracker so you can give a good honest answer. Well done, i will get to some football games now in england and give you a report, probably middlesbourough. Now thats shakey ground.

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In relation to draws - during a long home and away season, I too have no difficulties with draws -but I do have a difficulty with them in shortish tournaments in the World Game, such that:
1. South Korea can claim 3rd possie in the Asian Cup having drawn its last three games nil-all
2. about half of the round of 16 in the 2006 WC were draws
3. the world championship can be determined by a penalty shoot out - this especially gets on my nerves.

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it’s ironic, that RL and RU could present their score as 4 sub columns and the total column, i.e. trys, conversion goals, penalty goals, field goals and total points.

But they just present total points.

I’ve said before, AFL love to see the efficiency of goals and behinds, traditionally (before 11 rushed behinds in a GF) - a scoreline of 8.15.63 illustrates either wastefulness or pressured defense forcing an attacking team wide etc.

The quarter by quarter view is so important to show the trend, a bit like seeing your cricket scores broken down not just day by day but session by session.

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To oikee, why no points for a draw? League and AFL both give points for a draw… and it is a legitimate result after a game in which lots of skill can be displayed. As I said before it is often more fake to try and force a winner when in reality the teams were pretty evenly matched on the day.

Also to oikee no-one said there weren’t crowd problems in football. I will be the first to put my hand up and say our code’s record has had some dark moments. All I’m saying though is that it has to be treated fairly. League has had some bad moments here too. AFL less so admittedly and the worst I’ve seen/heard is oral racist abuse of indigenous players in opposition team playing at Subiaco. As I’ve said a lot over the past months, if a sport deserves to be bagged out for CONSTANTLY having a drunken, racist, aggro disgusting yobbo environment then it is cricket. There may be one or two problem incidents PER YEAR in each of the other sports. But there are a dozen or more PER GAME in the ODI series each summer.

Oh and just so you know I have been to a Socceroos V France game at the MCG in late 2001 in France colours and had a great time, no problems. I’ve also been to a number of Australia V France Union internationals again carrying the French flag, and again no hassles. I’ve also worn Sydney FC colours to HAL games in Perth and Brisbane. And I grew up in Perth as a St Kilda supporter in the AFL and frequently went to Subi in red, black and white. MC and/or RedB can tell you how feral West Coast fans are against opposition supporters (mostly in good fun of course)!! So I definitely know what its like to be an “away” supporter.

Now, you’ll laugh at this after all my ranting. Through work I have just been invited to a corporate box for the RLWC opening ceremony and Aust V NZ game on the 26th. I’ve said yes for shits and giggles and to check it out. So despite what my thoughts are about the tournament I am going to have a look first hand…

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.I was going to mention i am not sure if its used in aussie rukles, M.C the points system. Maybe they just make it simple for league, we dont want to confuse the ignorant now do we.

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ahem………in AFL, 4 pts a win, 2 for a draw, 0 for a loss……..it’s just that 2 draws in a season of 176 games is a very low ratio.

btw -

it’s funny when we try to define things as ‘artificial’ - as, all sports is artificial, i.e. the result of ‘artificial’ rules that regulate activity into a ‘game’. What’s more artificial than ‘off-side’?

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Desilva i have no problem with peoiple enjoying the game, they have choice ‘ i would never tell you not to watch it but some arguments are just plain stupid, yes i know we have problems with crowd behaviour even in league but to say you have never had any problems with crowds at soccer, what are you saying, your never travelled to a game outside your own team, this is when the trouble starts.

Look the england team will play in brisbane and have around 10 thousand supporters either here or coming over so we get to mingle with them at the game, and your friendly country is a funny statement, england are or were the worse at finding trouble, not that it was all their doing.

I have said i dont mind the riots, but if one starts at this world cup i will be the 1st out the gate.

And good rivalry between other countries in soccer, alot of that is political or religion. Dont forget that most wars are fought over either one of the last 2 i have mentioned. Some people just wont let go of the past.

So japan will probably be our main rival in soccer. Hope i have not got the blood stiring there K.B.

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cricket - I remember well enough the efforts of Mike Whitney in holding out the ‘rampant’ Richard Hadlee (as he had been esp v Aust in Aust at that time) - - to secure a highly meritorious draw……………..but, gee, a whole lot more scoreboard action had occurred in that game than in a soccer 0-0 draw.

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ah, but I’d bring the basketball merit value into it too……..soccer long range goals or goals scored outside of the ‘V’ so to speak, should perhaps be worth more………….but then I support the 9 point super goals the AFL has in the pre-season comp for goals scored from outside 50m.

This was a discussion had once upon a time on the SMH flog………….KB was a party to it as well I believe, but certainly Pippinu too.

Millster -

just one thing - - - - it isn’t ’so easy’ to score in Aust footy.

Ask the Chinese and Indian teams at this years international cup - even the Japanese, who are pretty good, play some nice passages, but against a NZ - they just can’t transfer play successfully and into a scoring position and finish it off………….thus, despite being determined, persistant, having a crack………….they got done 20 goals to nothing………….to them, most certainly - scoring is not easy.

btw -

re goals - - remember, the original rules of London 1863 had no cross bar - - it was only them pesky northerners from Sheffield who really brought the cross-bar back in…………silly notion really. Surely you should be true to your roots and have no x-bar and have kick off posts again………..as the forefathers envisaged the game when they wrote the first rules……

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~~~~~~~
KB

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