Stadium concern for Adelaide and World Cup bid

dasilva said  | October 19th 2008 @ 9:14am | Report comment

Sure it will be great for Adelaide to play in a 50000 capacity stadium for the Champions League Final and for Soccerroos matches. If we can’t fill Hindmarsh Stadium to capacity then I’m not too sure whether Adelaide is ready for a larger football stadium. It will be quite embarrassing to Adelaide United to play with less then 10,000 a week. With crowds plateauing we have to settle for around 9-12 k per week. Would that be good for atmosphere of an A-league game if played in a 50 k stadium. Unless Adelaide are regular champions league qualifiers I doubt whether Adelaide will see the stadium play to full capacity with exception of 1-2 Soccerroo matches every 4 years.

Nice dream though

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Kazama said  | October 19th 2008 @ 10:10am | Report comment

Adrian, easily the least biased article I have seen on the whole stadium issue that is causing quite a storm in our little city.

I agree with dasilva. If we really want to be serious about a new stadium for United first we must start selling out Hindmarsh Stadium in the A-League, not just for the ACL. I think there is a case to be made that for Adelaide’s football fans to be given a new stadium they must first earn it by turning up to games and putting pressure on the powerbrokers to make it happen. If we had 16,500 to every game then we’d have a case. But, instead we are getting 10,000. That isn’t good enough. Also, we have had the Socceroos play here before and no one turned up. We had around 9,000 for the showdown with NZ and then the other games got about 4,000 each. Forget the opposition, the Australian team featured a few big name players (Cahill, Emmo, Marco, John Aloisi) and tickets were dirt cheap so there is no excuse. Also we have had the Olyroos here and no one turned up. We’ve had youth tournaments here that featured big name teams like AC Milan, Barcelona, Rangers, Aston Villa (led by EPL star Gabriel Agbonlohor), Bayern Munich, Ajax etc and no one turned up. Aside from the odd big United match and the 2000 Olympics (when we had Australia and Italy playing here) the people of Adelaide have never supported football by turning up for games in big numbers. Until Adelaide is selling out Hindmarsh every week, we’ve got no case to argue.

As far as the World Cup bid goes, exactly what will Adelaide recieve in return for building a new, FIFA-approved stadium? We would almost certainly get the weakest group and again I think no one will turn up. The people of Adelaide right now in uproar about us needing a new stadium for the World Cup, but when we are given a group containing, say, Ghana, Portugal, Iran and Paraguay, will the people of Adelaide who are unwilling to spend $25 to see United play Melbourne or Sydney spend ridiculous sums of money go to those games? Based on the recent history I’ve outlined above, you’d have to say that you would struggle to get even 15,000 to any of those games, even accounting for international visitors. It’d be an embarassment. It actually seems to me that having four of the groups based in Sydney and two in Melbourne (with the remaining two in Brisbane and in Perth) would not be such a bad idea if it means we sell out every match.

I agree though that, on the back of Adelaide United’s ACL adventure and Port Adelaide’s woes, the case for a soccer, rather than a footy, stadium is growing. From my point of view, Port Adelaide are in big trouble. I think it is not out of order to suggest that they could exit the competition in the next two to five years unless they have a massive turnaround in fortunes. If they did, then Adelaide would be back to having AFL footy once a fortnight instead of once a week, which would IMO severly weaken the case for building a new oval shaped stadium. But, again, do we deserve a new soccer stadium on the basis of a couple of ACL games, and even if we do will the government be willing to fund it?

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NUFCMVFC said  | October 19th 2008 @ 10:55am | Report comment

Issue with Hindmarsh as far as I can gather is accessibility - in terms of Car Parking and Public Transport which is keeping crowds lower, if the Govt built an expandable 30k stadium in the CBD they should and would get higher average crowds, have enough for the extras that come in big matches like finals, 50k itself at this stage is too small, and they should design it so it can be smmothly upgraded to about 40k+ for a World or Asian Cup

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True Tah said  | October 19th 2008 @ 2:18pm | Report comment

Kazama,

I wouldn’t worry about futbol World Cup games in Adelaide not being sold out, look at the rugby World Cup, it sold out games in Adelaide and Tasmania and it has far less pedigree in either area than futbol, and its a far more complex game.

Onside,

an eastern state world cup would not be a national futbol world cup bid, sorry, the people of WA (even though they voted to secede back in the 1930s) and SA have as much right to have matches as the likes of NSW and Vic.

Adrian,

what is the story with Subiaco…until the Perth Glory start getting punters in, there is no way that a futbol-only stadium for 40,000 should be built in Perth, it would need to be shared with the Force, would Perth Glory be happy to share the ground with the Force?

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Al said  | October 19th 2008 @ 2:30pm | Report comment

TT, wouldnt it be a question of whether the Force would be happy to share with the Glory, as they get the crowds?

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Joe FC said  | October 19th 2008 @ 5:04pm | Report comment

Adrian
Did the AFC & FFA say exactly what the problem is with AAMI stadium?

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Dave said  | October 19th 2008 @ 6:43pm | Report comment

Would love to see a bigger rectangular stadium in Adelaide and AU have done their cause no harm with this outstanding ACL run. Realistically it wont happen until Oz gets the 2018/2022 WC.
Is there any point expanding Hindmarsh? Can it be done?
Otherwise it wont be for 8-10years before the new stadium will be built.
All crowds have been down in Adelaide this season eg 31,000 (normally 45,000) for the AFL derby game Crows v Port so l wouldn’t read too much into crowds for this and probably next year. However it is great to see a stadium bursting at the seams like Hindmarsh twice in the last month.

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True Tah said  | October 19th 2008 @ 7:08pm | Report comment

Pip

who owns AAMI?

If its the SA State Government then I fail to see whats the problem with converting it to a rectangular park for Adelaide United to use?

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Koala Bear said  | October 19th 2008 @ 7:24pm | Report comment

Dave,
Hindmarsh can be extended it was done with temporary seating for the 2000 Football Olympics, then dismantled .. Crazy yes .. The corners at Hindmarsh were filled in with temporary seating that, took the capacity over 20K to I think 25K there abouts, which is imo a very good size stadium and with the cost of less then $10m or so should be redone to keep up with Football’s growing appeal in the city of churches.. And when Frank Lowy’s and the Football Family’s dream of the 2018 world cup coming to Australia; then build a Stadium of 40k with the Federal money that, will be made available.. Not only for Football but also for the Rugbies (two codes) Expansion is in the air .. For retanglism.. (my new word) … Chelsea still unbeaten….

~~~~~~
KB

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True Tah said  | October 19th 2008 @ 7:37pm | Report comment

Pip,

thanks for clearing that up.

I figured with the Crows and Power getting reduced crowds this year and Adelaide United getting big crowds all season, it would only be a matter of time before futbol would be allocated the big stadium.

The criteria seems to be that we need a stadium of at least 40,000 and no more than two in one city, and 12 stadiums.

Sydney -SFS, Homebush
Melbourne - MCG, Telstra Dome/or new rectangular stadium
Brisbane - Suncorp
Townsville - Dairy Farmers - needs to be upgraded from 30k.
Perth - Subiaco to be reconfigured
Canberra - Canberra stadium to be upgraded from 25k
Newcastle - EnergyAustralia to be upgraded from 25k
Adelaide - AAMI Stadium???
Tasmania - new stadium???
Geelong - Skilled Stadium?
Gold Coast - Clive Palmer to sink his $$$$ to increase stadium up from 25k

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Pippinu said  | October 19th 2008 @ 8:17pm | Report comment

TT
did I clear anything up?

I’m still wondering why the MCG and the Dome are ok for soccer games, but AAMI isn’t?

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Pippinu said  | October 19th 2008 @ 8:18pm | Report comment

But Dave - aren’t you just as far away with the MCG?

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Koala Bear said  | October 19th 2008 @ 8:34pm | Report comment

Dave,
no doubt it is too late for Hindmarsh this year, But with the past events of what has been an amazing achievement so far by AU .. Hindmarsh should get that extra seating in placed permanently constructed for next season … 25k..

I didn’t see the SFC match .. But what good sports the SFC lads are .. Nevertheless, it was interesting to see Corica heading the ball over the crossbar in the last minute to maintain the interest in Perth and the top of the table clash at the TD to ensure a bumper crowd .. btw I hope you finish with the usual 10 on the park… The Scottish One said on the TWG interview today that he is getting new Portuguese interpreters.. He has suspicions that these guys are working tor the F****** FFA…

~~~~~~~
KB

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James Ward said  | October 19th 2008 @ 9:23pm | Report comment

Pippinu, AAMI has a very different feel from Telstra and the MCG and you do feel a lot further away from the action.

Also isn’t AAMI essentially run by the SANFL so in essence it is very closely aligned to the AFL. I wonder if there was some back room dealings to keep soccer away from its ground.

Plus the Adelaide govt. doesn’t seem to keen on soccer.

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True Tah said  | October 20th 2008 @ 10:57am | Report comment

Millster,

there are a number of issues here.

1. Unlike the majority of countries where the futbol world cup has been held, we have a small population over a huge area, with the vast bulk of the population in 5 major cities.

2. The no. 1 sports in Australia are played on oval fields, thus there are stadium with sufficient seating, but they are not configured for rectangular costs, this is perhaps unique to Australia.

Personally I think there is another option on the board, and it may or may not go down well with you guys, but has the idea of a joint-WC bid with NZ ever been considered?

Im not sure if you guys are aware of this, but the rugby world cup is to be held in NZ in 2011, and the grounds in Christchurch is being upgraded to seat 40,000 and they are looking to a 60,000 stadium in Auckland, although they have yet to start construction. Wellington has a 37,000 capacity, would this be too small?

My reasoning is that the smaller countries (like Japan/Korea, Austria/Switzerland) seem to have joint bids…culturally there are more similarities between Australia and NZ than Japan/korea, although this would mean you could have games across an area bigger than Europe.

To offset this, isn;t the HAL looking at a 12 team comp overall? Will the HAL ever be in a position where it gets 30k crowds to every single game…if so, then phone Mulitplex now and get them ready to upgrade BlueTongue, EnergyAustralia, Canberra.

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Millster said  | October 20th 2008 @ 11:29am | Report comment

Back to the main article though, I repeat my earlier question - what of the Adelaide Oval? If it was good enough for RUWC, then why is it not suitable for ACL and/or FIFA WC?

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True Tah said  | October 20th 2008 @ 12:19pm | Report comment

MC,

I was referring to the fact that it would be difficult for say Korea to host the World Cup on its own, I doubt there would be sufficient stadiums in Korea to meet the criteria, maybe Japan.

Personally Im in favour of the world cup being held in one country, Australia 2003 was a great example of that, even though it was partially due to the Kiwis screwing their side up.

I think the IRB have a less stringent policy to stadiums then FIFA do when it comes to world cups, they wouldn’t appear to have a requirement than every stadium needs at least 40,000 capacity, although France 07 averaged almost 50,000 per game. Unless the Federal Government is determined to build stadiums/upgrade them around the land, going in with NZ is our only real option to have a hope.

You guys can talk about Frank Lowy being on the committee helping us, how Italy and Brazil want us to host the world cup, but unless we satisfy the criteria, we wont be in with a shout, plain and simpe. The criteria is 12 stadiums, no more than two in each city (is Gosford a part of Sydney?) and minimum 40,000 capacity. Right now, this criteria is not met, and if you strike ovals off, it makes it even worse. Bringing NZ will help us out here with two stadiums, although for 2011, Wellington may be increased, so say three stadiums. 2 in Sydney, 2 in Melbourne, Suncorp, Subiaco. Thats nine stadiums, so we need an extra three stadiums to be built and/or upgraded.

Who gets the upgrades? The candidates would have to be Canberra, Wollongong, Newcastle, Gold Coast, Gosford, Townsville and Tasmania. I discount Darwin, because a population of 100K is not enough to justify a 40,000 stadium. Canberra would need to be included, its our national capital, the resident HAL side would be able to share with the Brumbies and Raiders, so its $$$ well spent. Gold Coast, although its close to Brisbane, gets good crowds with Titans and local derbies with the Broncos would see 40,000 crowds, plus Clive Palmer’s bling bling boys are likely to be a hit there.

In all reality, Gosford and Wollongong are too close to Sydney, and I dont believe they would warrant a 40k stadium, the Mariners are doing well, but a 40K stadium in a population of 250K is too small…I think Newcastle would be the third option, it is due for a renovation anyway, the Knights would be able to draw upwards of 40k, and the Jets aint doing too bad either (their 2008 average is almost as high as Sydney FC). If it does get 40k, maybe even the Wallabies or Tahs will call in at the Steel City??

In the future, I think thet AAMI will become a futbol venue, because it seems that futbol is now the dominant sport there, and the Crows and Power are bleeding supporters like nothing else. If AAMI becomes a futbol venue, you can scrap Newcastle off the list.

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Michael C said  | October 20th 2008 @ 12:43pm | Report comment

TT -

but in the end Japan and Sth Korea went crazy building stadiums, and Japan especially is struggling to make them earn their way now………..I guess that’s the point - - that even with their much larger populations, less dispersed populations, and less ‘footballing’ competition - - - it’s still been a dodgey business case over there!!!! You’d be mad to imagine a better proposition for Australia???

btw - if you can describe the Crows and Power as ‘bleeding’ supporters in favour of soccer in Adelaide (during these financially challenging times) - - then, you’re doing well. REmember, they had a combined 82,000 membership in season 2008…………hmmm……yes, down from 85,000 in 2006…………….that’s bleeding like nothing else!!!!

btw - btw - MElb, 3 stadiums, the MCG, TD and the new rectangular stadium is being built for 31K with foundations to go to 50K if required.

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True Tah said  | October 20th 2008 @ 1:46pm | Report comment

MC,

Japan would have been struggling whether or not they built the stadiums, aging population is going to really cause issues for Japan, and a couple of half-empty futbol stadiums wouldn’t have made much difference.

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True Tah said  | October 20th 2008 @ 1:57pm | Report comment

MC,

based on the futbol WC criteria and what Australia currently has, we do not satisfy the criteria. If we bring in the Kiwis, who hopefully will have three stadia that meet the criteria by then, it will strengthen a joint FFA/NZ joint bid to no end. The stadiums I suggested above could be modified - if Clive Palmer wants, he could fund the expansion of Skilled Park at Robina?? Hes a wealthy man.

I agree with Millster, a joint bid with the Kiwis would be by far and away the strongest bid we could mount.

If we do a joint bid, and get the WC I expect all your futbol heads to send a thank you card to the IRB for awarding RWC 2011 to NZ!!

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ren said  | October 20th 2008 @ 2:10pm | Report comment

i think this is similar to millsters link

http://www.austadiums.com/news/news.php?id=336

overall a pretty good website in regards to the topic.

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Dave said  | October 20th 2008 @ 4:40pm | Report comment

The only solutions are for Adelaide United to keep doing what they are doing currently, selling out Hindmarsh and this will soon get the ear of the pollies…likewise if Oz are successful in its bid for 2018/2022 WC then a new stadium will be a must.

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Redb said  | October 20th 2008 @ 5:08pm | Report comment

and if Adelaide United were losing and Port Power winning in 3 years - what would be the answer to building or not building a boutique oval or rectangular stadium close to Adelaide’s CBD??. Too much short term thinking based on bandwagon behaviour.

Look at Melb Victory - at one stage there was talk that a 50,000 rectangular stadium was mandatory, interesting that it has settled back into a 20,000 - 30,000 crowd range, perfect for the 31,000 new Melb rectangular stadium.

Fans are going to the ACL games, but these are one of sucess, the HAL matches rarely get near capacity for regular fixtures.

I agree AAMI is too big for Port Power who have much smaller fan base than the Adelaide Crows, Port Power suit a 25,000-30,000 seat stadium. In Adelaide no one supports Port Adelaide except dyed in the wool Power fans. Also for thsoe who follow the AFL, we know most home games for Port Power were live against the gate on Foxtel this year for the first time. It combined with poor on field performances and the Power’s working class fan base contributed to a sizeable drop in crowds.

The ultimate answer is to build a multi purpose stadium with a 25,000 to 30,000 seat capacity near the CBD and close to public transport.

One big problem is a lack of money in Adelaide - post GFC this is effectively twice as bad.

Move the ACL game to AAMI stadium or suffer the consequences of fan disharmony.

Redb

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Redb said  | October 20th 2008 @ 5:28pm | Report comment

yes and if Adelaide United finish 10th in 2012 will the crowds still flock?

Redb

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Redb said  | October 20th 2008 @ 9:12pm | Report comment

and the reality of a bandwagon factor that is being used to support an argument for a rectangular only stadium in Adelaide.

Redb

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Michael C said  | October 21st 2008 @ 5:56am | Report comment

Adrian -

WHY should stadium be built that aren’t needed just because it MIGHT help soccer grow - - when it’s full of privately owned franchise clubs, crowds are in decline presently and we already have 3 football codes that have been satisfying needs quite nicely for sometime now - - despite the fact, that no matter how anyone tries to claim that ‘new soccer’ is only 3.5 years old - that soccer HAS actually been around for over 100 years in Australia………..and it’s given us what???

re Ade Utd -
the Adelaide Oval match was held across the New Years Eve weekend - - a nice little ‘regular fixture’ that is being repeated this year - - a recognition that a bit of a ‘carnival’ element helps - - - and something the FFA need to look at - i.e. ‘block buster’ if you will type fixturing.
But - you can’t blame Hindmarsh for regular season HAL matches if the Reds fans are willing happily to turn up for the ACL matches mid week!?!?!?! Argument falls a bit flat there.

What I do think is that too many soccer folk covet what the AFL has.

On any other reasonable soccer model around the world, Australia would be very happy thank you very much with about 12-14K crowd averages - after all, we are NOT the EPL or Bundesleague (however you spell it).
without the AFL, the comparision to the NRL for example would suggest that the HAL is right on the money.

So - - be careful about developing an over inflated view of the crowd interest generated by domestic soccer leagues outside of the top 3 or 4 ‘world’ leagues. Soccer has no right in this country to expect AFL type crowds - - and the build it and they will come argument is pathetic really………….and surely Stadium Australia is proof of the falsehood of that style of argument.

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