By Spiro Zavos
October 27th 2008 @ 7:32am
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Two ferocious rugby finals, and a warning to European rugby
The weekend’s two provincial rugby finals, with scorelines from the old days of rugby, were played within hours of each other, in wet, cold Wellington, New Zealand, and in overcast, blustery Durban.
The common feature of the matches was the ferocious mauling, counter-rucking, tackling and running of all four sides.
Despite plenty of wide-ranging attacks, only three tries were scored in all. But two of the tries (one by Canterbury and other by the Sharks) were the result of high-quality passing, running and handling by backs and forwards to break down some strong defensive lines.
Wellington Lions 6 - Canterbury Lambs 7
The Wellington match revealed once again the inability of NZ teams, in this case the Lions, to close out a tight match with a dropped goal. Wellington had numerous opportunities late into the match to set up the drop goal. They had a skilled kicker in Piri Weepu (who had slotted over several such kicks in the warm-ups). But no one had the nous to actually set up the play.
KwaZulu-Natal Sharks 14 - Blue Bulls 9
The Durban match revealed the South African weakness at first five-eighth. Some magic by the Frenchman Frederic Michalak set up the Shark’s second and match-winning try. Michalak is not eligible to play for the Springboks. His replacement Francois Steyn, late in the match, did not have the deftness or craft of the clever French player. And playing for the Bulls, the other Steyn, Morne, was ponderous moving the ball along the line and stood too deep to get the Bulls’ backline moving.
Against this, however, all four sides showed tremendous energy and determination. The intensity of the forward exchanges would have delighted the crusty British journalists who think that rugby is about dockyard brawls in the lineouts and scrums - if these journalists could ever bring themselves to see anything good about southern hemisphere rugby.
There is a warning in these matches for the European teams that face the Springboks, All Blacks and the Wallabies in a couple of weeks time.
That warning is this: the southern hemisphere teams have learnt from the 2007 RWC (especially NZ sides and hopefully the Wallabies, too) that toughness and abrasiveness in the forwards over-rides even skill in the forward exchanges. The Springboks and the All Blacks, particularly, are going to extremely powerful in the set pieces which does not augur well for the Six Nations sides that they are going to face.
One final point, as well, but closer to home. Seven new All Blacks have been picked for what Graham Henry correctly describes as ‘an exciting squad’. These players (the likes of Corey Janes, Scott Waldromand Hosea Gear) distinguished themselves in the NPC, more than the Super 14 tournament.
Once again, the very limited amount of tough rugby Australian players are confronted with, particularly early on in their careers, exposes a weakness in the local schedule.
How much more ready for big time rugby would the likes of James O’Connor and Quade Cooper and the other rising stars be if there was the Australian equivalent of the Currie Cup or the NPC?
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Benjamin said | October 27th 2008 @ 7:59am | Report comment
NZ have been powerful in the forward exchanges since Graham Henry realised that the forwards build the piano and the backs play it. I would suspect that his time in the NH helped attune him to this philosophy, and look how well it served him. The ability of the NZ forwards will not be a shock to anybody who has actually been watching rugby over the past 4 years.
SA are unlikely to be that effective simply because they, unlike Henry, Cron and Hansen, have still not realised that power is only valuable when allied to technique. The SA scrum has not troubled France or England in years and has only been awkward for Wales, Ireland and Scotland. I specifically recall a game at Twickenham where Jake White compared the SA forwards as boys to the English men. That PDV has elected to ignore du Plessis, van der Merwe and Botha suggests that the SA scrum will be its’ weakest for years. Pushing Smit to the tighthead is a risky, risky strategy.
bob said | October 27th 2008 @ 8:09am | Report comment
Where is the warning to European rugby? Neither games were impressive, neither showed anything new… pretty poor all round really. But the forward exchanges were good, and the stand out players pretty much stood out… there is a misguided notion in some SH journo’s that everyone hangs on what the SH rugby does and thinks… there isn’t. We know the Sh produces some of the best players in the world, some of the best coaches and some of the poorest administrators… we know the national test teams will be good, we know they will be out to win, we know they might just do that… but we love our club rugby with a passion the SH can’t hope to compete with, and the Heinekin Cup is the greatest rugby tournament on earth, bar none… the GP is a close follower. So when the SH tests come, we will enjoy them for the carnival they are, and the celebration of the occasion they bring… but we wont worry. Our house, despite Spiro’s best efforts, is well and truly in order. As for the recent SH finals… had they been played under the old laws, Spiro and co would have been screaming how the lack lustre nature of the games proved the need for the ELV’s. I think it’s fair to say that the global elvs are the way to go, minus the collapsing the maul… and let’s end the fiasco that says exciting rugby can be engineered in a board room, or that tap and go, or the SH elv’s are some how the way to full stadia and open play. It’s time to wrap up the experiment and give the game back to the players.
Mart said | October 27th 2008 @ 8:58am | Report comment
How would NH rugby be frightened of a final where, er, Lambs beat Lions ? As the great Woody Allen once said “one day the Lamb and the Lion will lie down together….but the Lamb won’t get much sleep”….seriously, these 2 finals showed good hard “NH style” rugby (even with the low scores !), something Spiro would moan about if played in the NH….
Benjamin said | October 27th 2008 @ 9:00am | Report comment
mmm… methinks it is rather bizarre that Spiro decided not to comment upon the impact of the ELVs upon these two games.
Spiro Zavos said | October 27th 2008 @ 9:19am | Report comment
The ELVs allowed a great deal of running play, more than under the old laws which in turn demanded terrific defence from all the sides. The point about the ELVs that I’ve made right from the start - something that the diehards don’t seem to understand or want to understand - is that they allow for tight or expansive rugby to be played. The old laws really only allow for tight rugby to be played if one of the teams is determined to play the sidelines and make one-up plays.
So in both finals there was plenty of ball movement with the ball in play for long periods of time which tested the fitness of all the players and the skills, defensive and attacking, of all the players too.
We will see what happens on the European tours of the major SH countries. But is anyone in Europe prepared to argue that the the NH nations will will a majority of their Tests against Australia, South Africa and NZ, even though they are playing at home and historically teams playing at home have the advantage.
Or will they predict that the Six Nations sides will win even half the Tests?
The point is that if the NH countries want to pontificate about the laws of rugby they should at least be able to demonstrate that they have a deep understanding about how winning and attractive rugby should be played.
Throughout the history of rugby, aside from a handful of individuals like the great Welsh coach Carwyn James (who was never allowed to coach Wales) and some amazing players who never became involved in coaching (Barry John, Gareth Edwards etc) the European officials and coaches have generally never been able to read the true game of rugby properly.
This makes their continual lecturing on the evils of the ELVs so pathetic and so like the similar inane lecturing of their forebears who opposed running and attractive rugby in the 1890s on the grounds that teams shouldn’t be rewarded for having fast players!
Nothing changes it seems, and certainly not the pathetic record of Six Nations teams against the SH powers since 1905.
Terry Kidd said | October 27th 2008 @ 9:21am | Report comment
Gee Benjamin you just can’t help but to stir the pot can you? Spiro didn’t mention the ELVs because he was writing about something entirely different. Why try and read something that just isn’t there?
Wallythefly said | October 27th 2008 @ 9:23am | Report comment
Spiro, you’re last sentence says it all!
hayden said | October 27th 2008 @ 9:30am | Report comment
Bob - I agree the HK is the world’s premiere tournament. Oh, that we had its equivalent down south. Not quite so sure about the GP, but then again SH comps don’t need to pack their sides with NH talent in order to produce quality rugby. I don’t think it can be denied that despite its faults, the S14 produces player more skilled and prepared for international rugby.
Benjamin said | October 27th 2008 @ 9:32am | Report comment
Were the GP to knock out such low scoring games then they would be condemned by various narrow-minded SH pundits as dinosaur nonsense. I think Spiro’s rather irrelevant response is particularly telling.
Benjamin said | October 27th 2008 @ 9:34am | Report comment
Hayden. I think the NZ S14 teams produces more skilled players. I have seen little evidence of fantastic rugby from many other S14 teams.
Terry Kidd said | October 27th 2008 @ 9:40am | Report comment
Benjamin …. get back to the point of Spiro’s article …. how much Oz rugby needs a provincial comp. The NPC, Currie CUP, Heinekin Cup and GP are all worthy competitions and Oz desparately needs an equivalent.
I agree entirely with Spiro. The upcoming Wallaby tour is exciting but how much more prepared for the tour would the Wallabies be (especially the HK Bledisloe match) if they had still been playing competitive rugby?
Last year I watched the ARC and the NPC. This year I have only watched NPC (haven’t been able to catch any Currie Cup unfortunately) and I have been increasingly struck by how prepared for their NH tour will be the ABs. I worry that the Wallabies will be under done and will run out of puff later in their matches.
Plus what better stage to build skills for the next S14 than a good strength provincial comp in Oz? JON bring it on sooner rather than later.
Colin N said | October 27th 2008 @ 9:43am | Report comment
Let’s see what happens in the AI’s. As an England fan, I’m feeling fairly positive, which is a first for recent times. SH teams will probably win the majority of the tests as well Scotland really aren’t very good, Wales have a few injury problems and don’t have the depth. Ireland are probably the only other team atm that could win a couple of games. Even if England play poorly, we tend to have a strong enough pack anyway to overwelme South Africa and Australia. A luxury other NH teams don’t have. I agree with Benjamin regarding the narrow minded SH pundits.
Benjamin said | October 27th 2008 @ 9:55am | Report comment
Terry, Spiro mentions a domestic Australian comp. very briefly at the end of his article. Were the motivation of the article to highlight this issue then fine, however comments like:
“Against this, however, all four sides showed tremendous energy and determination. The intensity of the forward exchanges would have delighted the crusty British journalists who think that rugby is about dockyard brawls in the lineouts and scrums - if these journalists could ever bring themselves to see anything good about southern hemisphere rugby.”
suggest that Spiro has other objectives. It’s boring now. The issue of a domestic comp. has been highlighted again and again and I fully appreciate the necessity, however it is rather contradictory to moan perpetually about NH journalists and then offer the above. Spiro’s article actually seems to suggest that nobody has ever heard of SH forward power whereas the excellent work done by Mike Cron has hardly gone unnoticed.
Incidentally I would wager that NZ will be the only SH team to do well. I have no qualms with stating that I think SA and Australia will lose at Twickenham and that Wales will have a very good series.
ohtani's jacket said | October 27th 2008 @ 9:58am | Report comment
Since 2000, the Wallabies are 10-10-1 on these tours and the Springboks 8-11. The All Blacks are 16-2-1. They’re on a 12 Test winning streak and have been unbeaten on the European tour since 2002.
The All Blacks have a chance to go unbeaten if they pour their resources into doing so. There’s some history to play for as no side has ever successfully followed up a Grand Slam. Australia and South Africa are likely to lose a Test or two. They seledom play well on tour.
Benjamin said | October 27th 2008 @ 10:06am | Report comment
OJ, you should submit a NZ article - an analysis of the touring squad.
ohtani's jacket said | October 27th 2008 @ 10:37am | Report comment
I haven’t been watching rugby lately, but I’ll try and whip something together. I’m more excited about the squad than the actual tour. Some strong selections and the NZRU re-signing a bunch of players has things looking better in Kiwiland.
Nicko said | October 27th 2008 @ 10:43am | Report comment
I was a bit worried with the scrums watching the NPC final in the weekend. Tialata seemed to be getting absolutely monstered by Sommerville numerous times. If he switches over to be the replacement tight head I would seriously question his ability to contain Sheridan like Haymo and Yoda have all of these last tests. Anyone got any views on this?
van der Merwe said | October 27th 2008 @ 11:13am | Report comment
Ja, the Currie Cup final was a real gem. Who can forget Steyn running down Habana after Michalak managed to ankle tap him? It was an epic match. Certainly better than its New Zealand counterpart, which was just awful. The free kick ELVS were proved to be inferior in my opinion.
“I specifically recall a game at Twickenham where Jake White compared the SA forwards as boys to the English men.”
Given that on the last few of occasions that they have played, it was England that looked like boys, you might as well mention 53-3 for all that it’s relevant.
“That PDV has elected to ignore du Plessis, van der Merwe and Botha suggests that the SA scrum will be its’ weakest for years.”
du Plessis is nothing special. Certainly no better than Mujati. Van der Merwe, ja, well there’s a shame as he is possibly a stronger scrummager than Beast. Most normal teams would have him over Steenkamp. I don’t know how not selecting Botha suggests that they will have the weakest scrum in years given that he had a tough time on the last occasion he played against England.
hayden said | October 27th 2008 @ 11:30am | Report comment
Benjamin - perhaps true regarding Aus and SA S14 teams not producing much special, at least consistently, but I think that the S14 provides a great bridge between provincial and international level. This is perhaps missing in say, England, where it seems that players have difficulty making the step up from club to country.
TembaVJ said | October 27th 2008 @ 12:00pm | Report comment
First of all, the games on the weekend were good games, I enjoyed them both, curry cup a little more but over all pleasant rugby weekend.
Now, the constant kicking in these matches and most of the other matches played in the NZ-cup and Curry-cup is really starting to grind me. It also seems that its being used more and more the longer we test these new laws, especially in the finals. Now this should show people that the laws had nothing to do with the so called boring RWC final. The ELVs did nothing to changed the style of finals rugby. (by style I mean tight way finals are played)
This up coming tour will show how much class there is in the south, I don’t expect any of the NH teams to do much damage. Australia under Deans will be the weakest of the 3 teams heading up north and still id favor them above any of the euro teams. South Africa under De puppet will be stronger then in the 3N as I expect PDV to have learned his lesson on running every ball from back in Johannesburg to try and score under the post in twicknham.
I don’t need to say much about the AB’s, I don’t think they will lose a single game. If I had to put a figure to it, id say 90% of the games will be won by teams from the south.
mudskipper said | October 27th 2008 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
Wellington lost focus. They spent the best part of the second half camped in Canterburies half trying to breakdown their defence and didn’t have one shot for a drop goal. And the Wellington weather kicked in and they dropped one pass after another, pity.
And Canterbury this ANZ Cup have uncovered another genuine goal kicking flyhalf in Colin Slade, watch out for this kid next year…he looks every bit the real thing.
Guy Smiley said | October 27th 2008 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
I can’t believe I agree with Benjamin - if the GP or Heineken Cup churned out results like these in a key match the SH hacks would be the first to jump on them as an example of boring old school rugby. The NPC final was pretty poor (in difficult conditions - funnily enough, conditions experienced in the NH week in week out). As an advocate of the ELVs the rule about kicking out on the full even from inside the 22 has resulted in way more kicking and has to be ditched.
sambobly said | October 27th 2008 @ 3:09pm | Report comment
I would argue that the Brumbies are an example of an Aus side playing good, expansive and skillful rugby in the super 14. The results haven’t gone their way in the past 2 years but historically they are one of the most innovative sides in super rugby and probably the world. It is a bit rich to say that all the skillful play comes from the NZ sides seeing as most of it really just comes from the Crusaders and (less often) the Auckland Blues.
brad said | October 27th 2008 @ 7:43pm | Report comment
Spiro you mentioned the poor number 10’s in SA briefly. Did you know that the last time the sharks won the Currie cup was back in 1996 the flyhalf for that season and in the final was the legendary Thierry Lacroix. Olivier Roumat was also in the forwards. Ironically the sharks won again 12 years later with another French flyhalf.
Colin N said | October 27th 2008 @ 8:43pm | Report comment
I believe England will beat South Africa and Australia. The England back-row, if inexperienced is very dynamic and hopefully with Brian Smith as backs coach they can get them moving.
Hayden-I think the Heineken cup is our version of the super 14, just played at a higher intensity IMO. Also every game is important as a team generally can’t realy afford to lose two games in the group stages.
Also it will be interesting to see how the SH team’s play the ‘global’ ELV’s. With the free-kick rule, it became a bit of a ‘cheats charter.’ Will the like of Australia and New Zealand continue to infringe at the breakdown when a penalty is on offer? Will they just do it subconciously? I heard a NH comentator praise the kick out of the 22 rule for once because “it kept the ball in play longer.” Does he watch any rugby? I like the 5m scrum rule and the passing back off a quick line-out. From the games I watched in the EDF this weekend two teams used these rules perfectly to great effect.
Back to the AI’s and Wales will hopefully turn up against SH opposition for once and put a couple wins on them. However, there have been a lot of political wrangling’s in Wales in the past week, with rumour’s that Warren Gatland was set to leave his post. Hopefully that won’t distract the team’s preparations. Ireland’s provincial sides look promising with both Munster and Leinster looking the strongest HEC sides atm. Will it transfer internationally? They have promising young players coming through in the likes of Flizgerald and the already established Kearney. I expect Scotland to fail, as everyone else expects them to do. They have some excellent players, potentially world-class in the Lamont brothers and Blair. However, they have too many average players and a fly-half in Dan Parks who doesn’t really do anything. It’s time to give Phil Godman a chance.
Benjamin said | October 27th 2008 @ 9:20pm | Report comment
van der Merwe, that’s completely irrelevant because Spiro claimed that SA forward power would trouble the European nations and they should watch out. Firstly it isn’t as if SA forward power is unheard of but regardless of recent scorelines the SA pack has not toubled England, Italy or France in nearly a decade. Thus Spiro’s assertions that Europe should be worried might only be appropriate when referring to Scotland, Wales and Ireland.
I think Botha and du Plessis are far better scrummagers than Mujati. van der Merwe monstered him recently and if Botha has struggled then it is likely that Smit would struggle even more.
Hayden, I would agree with you in some cases but by and large the HC provides the stepping stone and players of true class like Care and Cipriani handled the step up pretty well anyway. Class will always prevail I suppose.
Sambobly, fair enough but the Chiefs have always been good value.
Scotty in London (late of Gosford NSW) said | October 28th 2008 @ 1:25am | Report comment
Yes I have hardly recovered from all those thrashings the NH teams have given the Wallabies in Oz these last 5 years……
Scotty in London (late of Gosford NSW) said | October 28th 2008 @ 1:31am | Report comment
The team the SH have most to fear is Ireland without a doubt. They showed by far the best performance down under, where England were royally thrashed in all the games, and Wales in one of theirs, and held on for a good old time until it blew out at the end.
In contrast a Ireland could have beaten the Wallabies with more luck, and were a good shot to topple NZ in one of the games.
I’m not running England down, but thier backs have shown nothing against the Big 3 for a long old time now. Thier forwards are workmanlike and strong, but subject to being out-thought.
Colin N said | October 28th 2008 @ 2:29am | Report comment
“I’m not running England down, but thier backs have shown nothing against the Big 3 for a long old time now. Thier forwards are workmanlike and strong, but subject to being out-thought.”
I agree in regards to the backs and I think that will change with Brian Smith there. But we have always tended to beat at least one of the SH powers when they have toured Europe, simply because of our strong pack. We may not have hammered the SH teams but we have generally done better than Ireland, Wales and Scotland in the AI’s.
Ian Noble said | October 28th 2008 @ 2:51am | Report comment
Spiro
I don’t anticipate any real changes from previous SH tours the teams are well prepared and usually the AB’s and SA packs are pretty fierce some. I would also expect the Wallabies pack to rise to the challenge. They must be totally fed up with various comments about the poor quality of their pack, particularly at prop. Deans will sort it out.
All the SH teams will be well briefed on the NH squads, as there are enough SH coaches in the NH for them to get an accurate pen pictures on every NH squad player with an up to date analysis on their strengths and weaknesses. So I am looking forward to the contests.
I am not making any predictions because there too many unknowns particularly from an England perspective as to how the Johnson era will unfold. At least under the new club/country agreement the Elite squad met yesterday and will be together for the entire autumn series. It will be the first time that this has ever occurred; the days of turning up on Thursday for an international on Saturday disappeared with the onset of the professional era or having to play club games during the series have gone for ever.
I think it was Paul Ackford in the Telegraph who remarked it will be a good test bed for the 2009 6N’s. Hopefully Johnson would have sorted out combinations and provided there are not too many injuries then with consistency in selection; England will be more coherent and play to their strengths which may surprise some as being in the backs.
The new kids on the block are career professionals, they entertain the public at club level and they have to perform to keep the punters happy, they also realise that if successful at international level their stock will rise increasing their earning potential both on and off the pitch.
On ELV’s, I would say the global trial has largely gone unnoticed other than for an increase in aimless kicking which gets increasing rubbished by spectators and commentators alike. Gradually over the weeks the kicking skills of some have improved, but too many kick into the gods and chase furiously Whether under the ELV’s or the old rules the breakdown is the biggest bone of contention with inconsistency in referreeing and frankly it is a mess.
Benjamin said | October 28th 2008 @ 5:03am | Report comment
Scotty, actually Ireland have always done well - to an extent - when on tour but McCaw said after the games that England had tested them more than Ireland had and that NZ always felt they could slip up an extra gear against the Irish. Having said that it was only O’Sullivan’s errant coaching that has held Ireland back over the years. They have always produced intelligent backs and Fitzgerald, Kearney, Sexton and Earls suggests that this is still the case. However Ireland has also had far more time together as a team due to the provincial agreements with the IRFU. England have not. Therefore it is true that whilst Ireland have under achieved, England have over achieved. You only have to look at the last WC to see that.
bob said | October 28th 2008 @ 8:36am | Report comment
Hayden, I agree that the SH players often have a more full skill set, but my point is that they usually won under the old laws too, and when people like spiro say “European officials and coaches have generally never been able to read the true game of rugby properly.” you have to wonder if he’s stephen Jones’ love child… what is “the true game of rugby”? Is it not the game that fills NH stadia week after week, is it the NH fans watching the HC, the GP, the French top 14, the Magners, and the s14, curry cup, and NZ provincial rugby? I think so… I think the true game oif rugby is alive and well in the NH, because we embrace ALL rugby. We love the SH teams coming north and bringing their particular brand, and if we lose we lose… we don’t undermine the SH players and teams, we dont insult or denegrate… we respect, not because they win, but because they play rugby! And they did it just as well, in their own style under the old laws… spiro would have you believe that there was no running rugby before the elvs… but then again, he never played the game, did he? I would argue that the Wallabiies and AB’s ran pretty well and played a pretty expansive game before the elvs were ever dreamed of… that’s not to say some aspect of the elvs are not worth keeping, they are, but they are not the magic fix their supporters sold them as….
Point of fact, the AB shirt is the number one selling international shirt in England, outselling the England shirt… because amongst a lot of players and fans, they are the team of the people… the laughable and insulting notions people like spiro have, are more out of touch as those of the laughably biassed Stephen Jones!
Terry Kidd said | October 28th 2008 @ 8:43am | Report comment
Lol … nice one Bob …. so the AB shirt is the highest selling shirt in England, therefore you must have a NZ expat population similar to Sydney and Brisbane …. half the guys I play touch footy with on the Sunshine Coast are also NZers !!! They’ve got national elections next week, makes you wonder if their leading political parties actively source the expat vote …. maybe they’ed win in a landslide !!!
Back to rugby …. I agree with the main thrust of your points …. the ELVs won’t fix everything. To go back to an old chestnut they should never have changed the rules for rucking back in 95, the breakdown has been a mess ever since.
Benjamin said | October 28th 2008 @ 8:57am | Report comment
Very well said Bob. There is the bizarre perception of English rugby in the SH, none of which seems to be true but is nonetheless perpetuated by certain people who should know better. There are still the tally-ho types who call Wilkinson JW and think he is the best player ever and that English rugby is the best by birthright but then there are also the regular types who go to games every week, who play every week and who embody the best and truest spirits of rugby. I was personally gutted when NZ were knocked out to France simply because they had set new standards of play. Despite having a rather juvenile and personal dislike of Wales I was also ecstatic to see them win their two Grand Slams. Why? Because of the rugby they played. The average English fan loves running rugby just as much as the average Kiwi or Australian fan. To that extent rugby fans all share similar characteristics and unecessary and personal tubthumping by people like Spiro, Peter Bills and Stephen Jones is nothing but divisive.
Incidentally if anybody is interested, and with all sincerity, I decided to work out the 3N try stats since 2002 having read a column by Peter Bills in which he arrogantly and ignorantly labelled the ELV critics as dinosaurs and stated that the ELVs produced superb rugby.
Under the ELVs in 2008 the 3N tournament produced 4.6/7 (I don’t have my stat sheet at hand) tries per game. If you discount the 07 3N due to the Kiwi conditioning period and White’s rotation policy then the average amount of tries scored per game in the 3N since 2002 is…. 4.6/7 per game. Exactly the same. Thus the ELVs have had no tangible effect on the amount of tries per game.
hayden said | October 28th 2008 @ 9:43am | Report comment
Bob / Benjamin: Thanks for the well thought out points of view. It is too easy to take journos at their word and think they are representative of common opinion. BTW - everyone seems to be taking an AB slam for granted. If they pull it off, it will be a superb effort, but Eng at Twickers are never easy, and as they play them last I wouldn’t take an AB victory for granted. It is the reverse of the June tours - NH players relatively fresh, SH players thinking about the beach.
Colin N said | October 28th 2008 @ 9:57am | Report comment
Hayden, I’m a English but I’m still going for a New Zealand win. However, if Brian Smith can get the backs moving, to add to what I believe could be a dynamic forward pack with Croft and Rees etc, then it could be a different story. But it’s sure to be a titanic contest. This All Black team isn’t as good as the one in 2006 but it still has quality all over the pitch.
Benjamin said | October 28th 2008 @ 10:06am | Report comment
Hayden, you’re absoultely right, I think the one thing in favour of England is that NZ will have played so many games by the time they meet. Who knows what injuries they MAY pick up? It is also hard to gauge the potential form of the SH teams because the 3N was transitional and the tactics of PDV meant that we never saw the true SA, which in turn mans that we never saw the true Australia or NZ. Likewise I don’t think England could ever be as bad as they were last summer in NZ. I am not expecting great things from England but I do expect better than we saw under Robinson or Ashton. If the pack play with fire and the backs show invention then I’m happy. Progress is normally a slow process after all. I would take England to beat Australia due to the Wallabies missing Vickermann and Elsom but I would expect NZ to win. If the ABs manage a grand slam then it would be a better achievement than in 06. Who knows though? Frankly I can’t wait.
Matt said | October 28th 2008 @ 10:23am | Report comment
Never got to see the Currie Cup Final, but I am always at awe for the size of the crowds they get to their ‘third-tier” competition. It always gives me the impression that, although SA crowds are the largest of the 3 SANZAR S14 nations, that a SH HK equivalent (with Provincial Qualification) would be something that the Saffas would REALLY embrace, as well as NZers too.
The NPC final was a bit dissappoining, mainly due to the weather. The previous knockout games (quarters and semis) leading up to the Grand Final had all been great spectacles, with positive play from all teams involved. Of the 7 finals games the Grand Final was by far the most dour and also the highest amount of fundemental errors (dropped ball etc). It was also the worst kind of advertisment of the ELVs of the entire competition. I am confident that the scoreline would have been in favour of the Lions had the weather been kinder.
The fact that 22,000 still turned up in those conditions showed that the fans were still expecting a spectacle, even in the heavy night rain.
But, despite the final, once again the NPC has unearthed another generation of amazing rugby players destined for bigger things. The Black jersey still has some real depth of talent and it was also positive to see a host of AB’s resigning with the national Union for a few more years yet.
The new caps are all promising talents and it will be interesting to see how Henry and Co introduce them to the test arena. Most interest is how far the NZ proping stocks have come in only 5 years?! Both Franks and MacIntosh look to be great prospects and they should do more than hold their own in the north. Even with Hayman and Sommerville up North (and Shwalger left at home) there are still the likes of Wyatt Crockett who can’t get a cap!!
A new generation of loosies will also be unleashed, with Messam and Read finally getting a go after all the previous commentary of their potential. As will the older stateman, Scott Waldrom, who has the out and out pace of a winger and who will look to fill the long awaited backup flanker role for Richie McCaw.
Corey Jane and Hosea Gear will add even more danger to the already dangerous outside backs (as well as the long awaited return of the prolific try scorer that is Rokocoko). The only real question mark hangs around the No.12 jersey (as seems to be the case with most National Sides as present?!). But it looks like Richard Kahui might be given a go at this troublesome position.
Meanwhile, the Wallabies have had 4 gruelling weeks of fitness training and will no dount look to unleash a furious and aggressive style to their NH opposition. Pundits writing them off might be in for a surprise. Deans has certainly added value in his short tenure thus far (less than 6 months) and he’ll be looking to introduce more of his systems to a team full of promise and energy.
Finally, with many rugby fans blaming the ELV’s for the current kickfest and also labelling the sanctions laws a ‘cheats charter’, it will be interesting to see how the NH sides cope with the SH at the break down and over the 80 minutes. The Tri-Nations certainly brought about another level of match fitness and also a higer aggression at the breadown, forged by the new sanctions rulings. This saw SH teams really targeting the breakdown, with both superior numbers and also the use of men on their feet counter rucking. This actually bodes well for these teams if the matches officials continue to penalise players going off their feet. The Canterbury team on the weeked are the perfect case in point for this tactics (lead of course by McCaw). As always the breakdowns and match fitness will be key. It was where England and Ireland were out done by the AB’s in NZ and the experience of the SH teams in this area must be a sizable advantage this time around too.
True Tah said | October 28th 2008 @ 10:53am | Report comment
Matt,
Currie Cup only gets big crowds for the big derbies involving the Big 5 of South African Rugby (Bulls, Province, Lions, Sharks, Cheetahs).
The likes of the Valke, Griquas and Cavaliers get very poor crowds.